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Hicks
07-05-2012, 10:52 AM
After basically throwing the concept of paying the max for Roy under the bus, he said an alternative would be to find a better PF and play two PF's, as long as one of the two can score in the post and one can block shots and rebound.

I hadn't really considered that, but what do you think about it?

I think it LARGELY depends on which PF you're talking about. If he means two guys the size of West or Hansbrough, hell no. But what about a 6'10 or taller PF who isn't a stick and can hold his own around the rim, and blocks shots/rebounds? Something to think about.

But no names immediately come to mind, and once we come up with a list, which of them is available and worth spending on in FA or in a trade?

DaveP63
07-05-2012, 10:56 AM
If he was a big sum*****, OK. Like a lot of the other 6'11" "power forwards" in the NBA.

Bball
07-05-2012, 10:58 AM
So then wouldn't one of the PF's be a center? Sounds like it to me....

Aw Heck
07-05-2012, 10:59 AM
But no names immediately come to mind
And that's the issue right there. And if we find a PF that is as good as you describe, guess what. We're going to have to pay him as much as we'd have to pay Roy Hibbert, if not more. And then what? We reach the playoffs and teams front the new PF just like they fronted Roy and we're back where we started.

Really, signing/matching Roy should not be an issue. It should be done, period. After years of playing without an inside presence and stretch 4's, we finally get an inside presence and we're going to let him get away? I just don't see it. I know he's not Shaq or anything, but the Pacers wouldn't be paying him like that anyway.

Ideally, the Pacers will find a PG this season that can throw a decent post entry pass.

90'sNBARocked
07-05-2012, 11:00 AM
After basically throwing the concept of paying the max for Roy under the bus, he said an alternative would be to find a better PF and play two PF's, as long as one of the two can score in the post and one can block shots and rebound.

I hadn't really considered that, but what do you think about it?

I think it LARGELY depends on which PF you're talking about. If he means two guys the size of West or Hansbrough, hell no. But what about a 6'10 or taller PF who isn't a stick and can hold his own around the rim, and blocks shots/rebounds? Something to think about.

Hicks its really a tough call man. I hate to loose big Roy for many reasons but it does call into question Roy's ability to improve greatly or if he will always be a 12 and 8 guy , who disappears at times. Would we be better with a Tyson Chandler/ Jordan Hill type undersized but good defender and rebounder? Or do we need that legit 7 footer. I knew this was bound to happen that Roy would get a max. I think we should match the offer because , providing Roy dosnt stop working, we should always be able to trade Roy if necessary

The one thing that scares me is I see us going from a period of time where we consistently werent good enough to make the playoffs, yet too good to make the lotery. Now we are in a situatioon where we seem to be good enough to be that 2-4 seed yet not good enough to challenge the Miami's /Bulls

I think more than anything we need that go to stud. Not sure how we get them but enough with the signing of good but not great players like G Hill for 40M
But no names immediately come to mind, and once we come up with a list, which of them is available and worth spending on in FA or in a trade?

Granville
07-05-2012, 11:00 AM
Nobody immediately comes to mind for me either, but it is something I have been considering. One of the arguments for keeping Roy is the lack of quality centers in the league. This is a valid argument, but perhaps a dated one. Maybe the league is going away from traditional centers. Maybe the traditional center in the NBA is equal to the fullback in the NFL. And, just as the NFL offenses have evolved to the point where a fullback is no longer even on most teams, maybe the NBA is at a place in time where traditional centers have lost some importance.

Let me stress that I have not yet come to this conclusion, but I do think it is worth considering.

Kstat
07-05-2012, 11:02 AM
I don't even have that theory on the table at the moment. I wish people would stop living in the last ten seconds instead of looking at the whole picture.

Because lebron James willed his team to the title does not mean the NBA is undergoing a shift.

Did Michael Jordan's six championships mean that slow, plodding completely unathletic 7 footers were the wave of the future?

PacerPenguins
07-05-2012, 11:04 AM
even if we don't resign Roy (which thinking now seems less likely each day) we better get off our butts and do something in free agency then or we might not make the playoffs next season

Peck
07-05-2012, 11:05 AM
Sure if your ok with a record hovering around .500%

Roy wasn't just a tall figure out there, he was the anchor of our entire defense. David West could barely defend his own man let alone any help side defense and any defender that is going to be as good as Roy or better than Roy is going to cost almost as much as Roy.

I've been holding out because I kept telling myself we had till the 14th to make a move here (matching in this case) and that we are just working all angles before making the comittment.

But it now seems like they are setting us up to let us know they are going to let him walk. We still have time so until it either happens or they come out and say it's going to happen I won't panic, but I'm telling you if they let Roy walk and we can bring in no other significant players this off season I am going to be mightily p!ssed.

BringJackBack
07-05-2012, 11:05 AM
Only thing I could imagine is Josh Smith, and I think he's too inconsistent to depend on... An option for the Pacers in next years free agency. But, EVEN IF WE MATCH Roy, and dump salary (Dahntay, Hans, and DC) we would have enough for him to play WITH Roy and West in the future, so long as his first year is at or below 11m. AFTER re-siging Roy and Hill we'd be at around 42 million. Giving us about 13 million, but we're probably going to sign some veteran to fill out the big man spot until then, hopefully for one year.

The trick here this summer, I think, is to get a scoring wing on a one year deal with the opportunity to re-sign him. Kevin Martin (The guy I want us to trade our scraps for, who is on the market), JJ Reddick, Anthony Morrow, and Jarrett Jack could be targets. Then this player would come off the books, with the vet big man we sign (Kenyon Martin, Jermaine O'Neal, or Antawn Jamison), and David West. Leaving us with Paul George, Danny Granger, George Hill, Roy Hibbert, Miles Plumlee, and Orlando Johnson under contract, eating up around 42-44 million. Leaving us leeway to get a big man like Josh Smith or Paul Milsap.

After we go after one of those guys, we re-sign David West and our wing.

Hicks
07-05-2012, 11:06 AM
So then wouldn't one of the PF's be a center? Sounds like it to me....

In the way that JO was a 'center' or Garnett is now a 'center', yes. The point is somebody who is not blatantly nothing but a center (Kaman, Roy, Oden, Dwight, Chandler, Gortat).

littlerichard54
07-05-2012, 11:07 AM
IMO it can be done effectively, but it has to be the correct combo of PFs. The Pistons really did if with the Wallace boys. Rasheed was more of a stretch forward. Wallace just sagged down on the back side to block shots. I know some will say that Ben was really a Center, but I don't necessarily agree. You still need an enforcer and shot blocker around the rim. The other needs to be athletic with some range. West can shoot a little, but I don't know that he is the ideal PF to match another PF with.

imawhat
07-05-2012, 11:09 AM
I don't know, but I don't like Conrad weighing in on this topic.

Kstat
07-05-2012, 11:12 AM
IMO it can be done effectively, but it has to be the correct combo of PFs. The Pistons really did if with the Wallace boys. Rasheed was more of a stretch forward. Wallace just sagged down on the back side to block shots. I know some will say that Ben was really a Center, but I don't necessarily agree. You still need an enforcer and shot blocker around the rim. The other needs to be athletic with some range. West can shoot a little, but I don't know that he is the ideal PF to match another PF with.

Ben Wallace was a center. There's really no controversy here. I watched him play the position for a solid decade.

The man was the same height as rip Hamilton, but that didn't make him any less of a center. And to say he just "sagged back and blocked shots" is one of the biggest understatements I've ever heard. I cannot think of a less accurate assessment of wallace's defense.

Speed
07-05-2012, 11:16 AM
Worrisome that Bruno is floating this out there, what was the context?

I think alot of teams in today NBA do this, essentially. There aren't enough big men to go around, especially in the East. What teams in the East have good true centers?

You could argue it either way, East teams don't have true centers who are good, so having Roy is a big advantage OR Teams in the East don't have true centers who are good, so you could compete without one.

Interesting discussion, either way.

pacers74
07-05-2012, 11:17 AM
Guys like Nene, Okafor, Rashard Lewis, Al Jefferson, and maybe Jason Thompson come to mind. Would I rather have Roy than any of them? Yes, of course. If we do lose Roy it's not like guys like that are cheap or even that great. Roy is what we need. Even Aldridge doesn't like to play center. That is why they are trying to get Roy.

ChadR11
07-05-2012, 11:23 AM
Does Conrad work for the Pacers anymore? They introduced him as being for Fox Sports Midwest? I was just wondering since if he doesn't work for the Pacers, maybe he doesn't have as much contact with the front office as he used to. Or maybe I'm just telling myself that because I didn't like what he was selling.

Unclebuck
07-05-2012, 11:23 AM
I fully expect the Pacers to re-sign Roy.

Sure two power forwards can work great, look at Sheed and Ben Wallace.

Unlike some of you even though Conrad is paid by the pacers to run their website, I do not believe he floats ideas the pacers want him to float. I believe is is largely an independent voice. (I mean mark Boyle is paid by the pacers too, but he isn't the pacers mouthpiece)

So I don't put too much weight in this comment by Brunner.

But he is correct two power forwards can win

aaronb
07-05-2012, 11:25 AM
After basically throwing the concept of paying the max for Roy under the bus, he said an alternative would be to find a better PF and play two PF's, as long as one of the two can score in the post and one can block shots and rebound.

I hadn't really considered that, but what do you think about it?

I think it LARGELY depends on which PF you're talking about. If he means two guys the size of West or Hansbrough, hell no. But what about a 6'10 or taller PF who isn't a stick and can hold his own around the rim, and blocks shots/rebounds? Something to think about.

But no names immediately come to mind, and once we come up with a list, which of them is available and worth spending on in FA or in a trade?

I like the idea myself. Of course I've always been more of a fan of a defensive anchor on the front line. Similar to how Dale Davis used to play.

yoadknux
07-05-2012, 11:25 AM
I would S&T Hibbert along with Collison for Horford and also try to sign Kaman.
This way you can start with West/Horford and bring Kaman as 6th man, and when West expires start Horford and Kaman.

Speed
07-05-2012, 11:26 AM
Playoff teams in the East last year...

Magic - Howard (for now)
Miami - Bosh or pick one of the a role players, if you want
Boston - Garnett
Chicago - Noah
Atlanta - Horford
NY - Tyson Chandler
Phillie - Spencer Hawes

Then its...

Milwaukee - Dalembert, Rookie Henson
Detroit - Greg Monroe, Andre Drummond Rookie who is probably years away
Toronto - Amir Johnson, Bargnani, Euro guy who its supposed to be good

Brooklyn - Brook Lopez
Cleveland - Sideshow Bob
Washington - Nene, Okafor
Charlotte - Biyombo

I don't know, what do you think?

Kstat
07-05-2012, 11:27 AM
Milwaukee has dalembert at C and John Henson at PF.

Mac_Daddy
07-05-2012, 11:31 AM
I've always seen the power forward position as Center-Lite. I like anchoring the paint with two big guys and hate seeing PFs playing a face-up, jump-shooter role.

Kstat
07-05-2012, 11:31 AM
You can go plenty of different ways with it, but it has to fit an overall team scheme.

blanket
07-05-2012, 11:32 AM
Link? Where were these comments by Brunner made?

Sookie
07-05-2012, 11:32 AM
Please just pay Roy.

This shouldn't be a difficult decision.

And if after paying Hill 40 million for 5 years they don't pay Roy, I'll seriously have to question the FO.

Brad8888
07-05-2012, 11:33 AM
Isn't Dale Davis retired?

I would bet that even Sir Charles would think that is a bad plan.

Karl Malone would figure that he could do it as long as he got his touches.

Circa 2003 JO is not walking through the doors of the Fieldhouse.

Maybe Walsh has a solid enough relationship with Amare that he would come here as long as he could camp out at the offensive end?

Dennis Rodman is not coming here as he is otherwise engaged in his retirement.

No - God No - OMG NO!!!!! The Lakeshow had dangled Bynum and What's-His-Current-Name-Oh-Yeah-Reeses-Pieces for Howard so maybe they are thinking of Ron Ron for the defensive end? Again - No - God No - OMG NO!!!!!

J7F
07-05-2012, 11:33 AM
Resign Roy! I don't like any other option at all...

He was the anchor of our defense and our defense is what carried us all last season...

I don't like our chances very much next year without him... He is THAT important... Definitely worth the mini max... If even only for 30 minutes a game...

BrownBearCoffee
07-05-2012, 11:34 AM
Please just pay Roy.

This shouldn't be a difficult decision.

And if after paying Hill 40 million for 5 years they don't pay Roy, I'll seriously have to question the FO.


Exactly. What is the FO saying if they pay Hill 40 million and won't pay Roy? Roy is a difference maker defensively. I think that is what is escaping many people.

Justin Tyme
07-05-2012, 11:41 AM
Worrisome that Bruno is floating this out there, what was the context?


My guess is the FO had Bruno publish this. It could be a tactic to let Hibbert's agent know the Pacers aren't interested in paying Hibbert a max contract.

If Portland re-signs Batum to a max can they afford to sign Hibbert to a max? What other teams who need a Center have the cap to sign Hibbert to a max? It just might be the Pacers saying when other teams can't sign Hibbert to a max neither are we. Just be prepared for it b/c we have alternative options. Maybe it's a shot over bow as a warning.

Peck
07-05-2012, 11:44 AM
Playoff teams in the East last year...

Magic - Howard (for now)
Miami - Bosh or pick one of the a role players, if you want
Boston - Garnett
Chicago - Noah
Atlanta - Horford
NY - Stoudamire or who else?Phillie - Spencer Hawes

Then its...

Milwaukee - Dalembert, Rookie Henson
Detroit - Greg Monroe, Andre Drummond Rookie who is probably years away
Toronto - Amir Johnson, Bargnani, Euro guy who its supposed to be good

Brooklyn - Brook Lopez
Cleveland - Sideshow Bob
Washington - Nene, Okafor
Charlotte - Biyombo

I don't know, what do you think?

Um you mean someone other than the DPOY Tyson Chandler?

Pacergeek
07-05-2012, 11:47 AM
Conrad is correct. Roy's scoring is not needed as long as David West is there to score down low. Danny, West, Hill, DC, Paul George are all capable scorers. Our low post offense last season was basically "your turn, my turn" with both David and Roy taking turns getting the ball in the post. If Roy leaves, and our post offense runs exclusively through David, we will be fine. To fill the void if Roy leaves, we need a center that will play hard on defense

tadscout
07-05-2012, 11:47 AM
I fully expect the Pacers to re-sign Roy.

Sure two power forwards can work great, look at Sheed and Ben Wallace.

Unline some of you even though Conrad is paid by the pacers to run their website, I do not believe he floats ideas the pacers want him to float. I believe is is largely an independent voice. (I mean mark Boyle is paid by the pacers too, but he isn't the pacers mouthpiece)

So I don't put too much weight in this comment by Brunner.

But he is correct two power forwards can win

This... People are just way over reading into things.

naptownmenace
07-05-2012, 11:49 AM
Link? Where were these comments by Brunner made?

THIS! How am I supposed to respond to comments that Conrad made if I haven't heard or read them?

DrFife
07-05-2012, 11:50 AM
Ben Wallace was a center. There's really no controversy here. I watched him play the position for a solid decade.

Except when he was standing next to Shaq. I still remember being startled by the physical difference. Wallace looked like a (muscular) book-end aside the Oxford English Dictionary.

Speed
07-05-2012, 11:52 AM
Um you mean someone other than the DPOY Tyson Chandler?

Forgot about him :), did the list off the top of my head.

Justin Tyme
07-05-2012, 11:52 AM
Heck, maybe Walsh is planning on bringing in Blatche to replace Hibbert. He is available and much much cheaper who can play the 4 & 5.

Speed
07-05-2012, 11:54 AM
Heck, maybe Walsh is planning on bringing in Blatche to replace Hibbert. He is available and much much cheaper who can play the 4 & 5.

Blatche is supposedly the king of the knuckleheads, no thanks.

mrknowname
07-05-2012, 11:58 AM
that guy is hard to find. only name that comes to mind is bismack biyombo

Mourning
07-05-2012, 12:00 PM
Please just pay Roy.

This shouldn't be a difficult decision.

And if after paying Hill 40 million for 5 years they don't pay Roy, I'll seriously have to question the FO.

Yup! I would be disgusted if we overpaid for Hill, who I don't view as crucial at all and IMHO is just a pretty average player, while letting Roy walk who I do view as crucial. I would be tuned off and I don't know if I want to invest much time and money in following a team with a FO which would have such an approach and is then obviously content with just trying to make the playoffs instead of being a major factor of importance in it.

Sollozzo
07-05-2012, 12:09 PM
If Roy Hibbert has hit his peak and never improves again then yeah he is probably right. But that isn't likely as Roy is 25 and has only played four seasons. He has improved every season and odds are he will continue to do so. By matching, you are making a bet that he will continue his year by year improvement. That is a bet that I think we should make. Roy on this roster basically guarantees us a playoff spot. I know that many people on here think this team is going to be the Hawks 2.0, but losing Roy certainly doesn't help us get anywhere.

If we don't re-sign Hibbert then does that tell us we have ownership issues? Walsh almost always took care of his own FA's and I seriously doubt that Pritchard wants to lose Roy to the team he used to work for. Combine that with Bird leaving.......

naptownmenace
07-05-2012, 12:10 PM
Heck, maybe Walsh is planning on bringing in Blatche to replace Hibbert. He is available and much much cheaper who can play the 4 & 5.

I hope to God not! It seems that Blatche is much more of a Knucklehead than I thought. From getting into a fist fight with Javale McGee to being a bad teammate on the floor. It got so bad that they benched him and gave him the Jamaal Tinsley treatment late in the season.

Plus he's a terrible defender on the defensive end and a human black hole on offense.

Kstat
07-05-2012, 12:11 PM
Except when he was standing next to Shaq. I still remember being startled by the physical difference. Wallace looked like a (muscular) book-end aside the Oxford English Dictionary.

...and big ben STILL was the guy guarding him %90 of the time.

I'd add big Ben has a 2-1 edge in playoff match ups.

Speed
07-05-2012, 12:13 PM
I can't listen to it to confirm, but I'm guessing Hicks heard Bruno on Grady and Big Joe today...

http://www.1070thefan.com/podcast/Episodes.aspx?PID=2160

Be interested to hear what the context was and how the discussion went.

Rogco
07-05-2012, 12:14 PM
Playoff teams in the East last year...

Magic - Howard (for now)
Miami - Bosh or pick one of the a role players, if you want
Boston - Garnett
Chicago - Noah
Atlanta - Horford
NY - Tyson Chandler
Phillie - Spencer Hawes

Then its...

Milwaukee - Dalembert, Rookie Henson
Detroit - Greg Monroe, Andre Drummond Rookie who is probably years away
Toronto - Amir Johnson, Bargnani, Euro guy who its supposed to be good

Brooklyn - Brook Lopez
Cleveland - Sideshow Bob
Washington - Nene, Okafor
Charlotte - Biyombo

I don't know, what do you think?

I think there are some good players there, but I also think that none of them are over 7'

Pacer Fan
07-05-2012, 12:24 PM
Yes they can afford Hibbert without question, even if Batum was to be retained.

Centers - Okur, Thabeet, Oden are all gone.
PF - JJ Hickson was not extended his QO, so he is gone.
SF - Nic Batum is prolly going to the Wolves, he, like Gordon, has made it clear that he doesn't want to return to Portland and he wants to play for the Wolves.
SG - Jamal Crawford is walking, he opted out.
PG - Raymond Felton is gone, he may end up in NY, but he wont be back to the Blaze. Jonny Flynn was not extended his QO, so he is gone.

Blazers have
PG - Lillard - rookie scale
G - Nolan Smith 1.3mil., Elliot Williams 1.4mil.
SG - Mathews 6.5mil., Will Barton rookie scale
SF - Luke Babbit 1.9mil.
PF - LA - 14mil., Shawne Williams opted in for 3.1mil., It is possible Blazers might do a buy out on Williams.
C - Kurt Thomas 1.3mil., Meyers Leonard rookie scale

Blazers are under 30mil not including Rookie Contracts.

PacerPenguins
07-05-2012, 12:29 PM
Mike Wells ‏@MikeWellsNBA
@SMosley21: gut reaction, do you think Indy matches? (No)

Naptown_Seth
07-05-2012, 12:47 PM
Sure if your ok with a record hovering around .500%

Roy wasn't just a tall figure out there, he was the anchor of our entire defense. David West could barely defend his own man let alone any help side defense and any defender that is going to be as good as Roy or better than Roy is going to cost almost as much as Roy.

I've been holding out because I kept telling myself we had till the 14th to make a move here (matching in this case) and that we are just working all angles before making the comittment.

But it now seems like they are setting us up to let us know they are going to let him walk. We still have time so until it either happens or they come out and say it's going to happen I won't panic, but I'm telling you if they let Roy walk and we can bring in no other significant players this off season I am going to be mightily p!ssed.
Yes, but the theory (fact IMO) is that it doesn't matter where the production comes from, as long as you get what you need.

So let's look at what Roy brings, size and all:
1) Post scoring - medium, not great, unstoppable or consistent at this point, and posting West works much better most of the time

2) Rebounding - for his size, not great, but since he is so tall he does get you 8-10. So if you can get 8-10 and some blocking out to help other players get their boards you will be okay

3) Post defense - pretty good, guys can put moves on him a little but his length does give some people problems. OTOH he isn't a shut down defender at his position at all, so he's not a Dwight killer or something (like Pollard vs Shaq).

4) Shot blocking/rim defense - outstanding, intimidates tons of lane drives and covers up mistakes.


So if you traded me 98 Dale for 12 Roy and kept West on the team, your starting bigs are great and can deal with everything Roy/West can deal with, and maybe more. Dale was NOT a Max player.

Thus going for a non-max, defensive/rebounding specialist who is really strong in those roles (not just "nice" as a bench guy like Lou) could keep the team moving forward just fine. The key is you need a player that is a good starting PF who would be a Max guy IF he was strong on offense, but isn't. Does that guy exist and is he available? Maybe not, so maybe the premium on Roy is scarcity even into the 6'10" PF range, along with the dreaded "potential".



Does anyone really see Roy/West killing an Antonio/Dale front court? In fact both PFs ended up playing center elsewhere, and ditto for PF Jeff Foster. You just need to have a shot blocker and PHYSICAL rebounder that clears space to get boards or athletically challenges tons of rebounds in traffic and vertically (ie, not Tyler).

Unclebuck
07-05-2012, 12:49 PM
I would S&T Hibbert along with Collison for Horford and also try to sign Kaman.
This way you can start with West/Horford and bring Kaman as 6th man, and when West expires start Horford and Kaman.


That is interesting

graphic-er
07-05-2012, 01:01 PM
That is interesting

I agree! Getting Horford for Hibbert and DC would an amazing turn of play.

graphic-er
07-05-2012, 01:02 PM
speaking of Conrad, anyone know why he isn't with the Pacers anymore?

spazzxb
07-05-2012, 01:47 PM
Hicks its really a tough call man. I hate to loose big Roy for many reasons but it does call into question Roy's ability to improve greatly or if he will always be a 12 and 8 guy , who disappears at times. Would we be better with a Tyson Chandler/ Jordan Hill type undersized but good defender and rebounder? Or do we need that legit 7 footer. I knew this was bound to happen that Roy would get a max. I think we should match the offer because , providing Roy dosnt stop working, we should always be able to trade Roy if necessary

The one thing that scares me is I see us going from a period of time where we consistently werent good enough to make the playoffs, yet too good to make the lotery. Now we are in a situatioon where we seem to be good enough to be that 2-4 seed yet not good enough to challenge the Miami's /Bulls

I think more than anything we need that go to stud. Not sure how we get them but enough with the signing of good but not great players like G Hill for 40M
But no names immediately come to mind, and once we come up with a list, which of them is available and worth spending on in FA or in a trade?

When Roy tweeted that GH had earned every penny of his contract it bothered me. The franchise makes a value judgement, however to truly earn your contract you need to perform at a certain level, otherwise you are just swindling a a team and fan base out of cap space. I have been a big fan of Roy, but if he thinks his current production is worth 15 million a year its a cause for concern. Portland is gambling on him. I hope Roy doesn't loose some of his motivation and work ethic after he gets paid. He just seems to be pretty arrogant. I still remember td to sign augraphs franchise 55

Mac_Daddy
07-05-2012, 02:09 PM
When Roy tweeted that GH had earned every penny of his contract it bothered me. The franchise makes a value judgement, however to truly earn your contract you need to perform at a certain level, otherwise you are just swindling a a team and fan base out of cap space. I have been a big fan of Roy, but if he thinks his current production is worth 15 million a year its a cause for concern. Portland is gambling on him. I hope Roy doesn't loose some of his motivation and work ethic after he gets paid. He just seems to be pretty arrogant. I still remember td to sign augraphs franchise 55

I don't think "arrogant" is a word I would ever use to define Roy. Timid is a much better descriptor.
Its really bothers me how far the pendulum has swung on Roy being loved to being apparently a selfish person.

indygeezer
07-05-2012, 02:24 PM
If they want to see 11,4500 average attendance again, they will let Roy go to Portland. THe community was just beginning to fall in love with this team. They will quickly fall out of love if they perceive a lack of willingness on the part of TPTB.



(maybe this WAS the wrong time to bring DW back)

Really?
07-05-2012, 02:28 PM
In the way that JO was a 'center' or Garnett is now a 'center', yes. The point is somebody who is not blatantly nothing but a center (Kaman, Roy, Oden, Dwight, Chandler, Gortat).

Yeah so a Center with versatility, same thing, and those guys typically get paid pretty well due to that factor.

I really at this point am tired of wondering if the Pacers will match or not, there are signs that show it is still on the table, and there are signs that show they might be going other ways, we will know soon, and personally I am so ready for that date to come, I am sure most people did not want to see our offseason like this, We thought we would be adding pieces to help up try and make a further post season run, now we are just scrambling to see how we can salvage the situation that presents it's self to us.

PaceBalls
07-05-2012, 02:33 PM
I don't think "arrogant" is a word I would ever use to define Roy. Timid is a much better descriptor.
Its really bothers me how far the pendulum has swung on Roy being loved to being apparently a selfish person.

Roy does have a chip on his shoulder. I remember hearing him say multiple times last year how he was the best passing big man in the NBA in TV interviews. Unsolicited as well. He clearly isn't but he seems to think he is!

tadscout
07-05-2012, 02:46 PM
speaking of Conrad, anyone know why he isn't with the Pacers anymore?

His twitter account still lists him working for us...

Major Cold
07-05-2012, 03:29 PM
If one of your PFs can guard Dwight effectively, then he is a center. Ben Wallace could guard Shaq (adequately) and JO and KG and Duncan.
Perkins can guard Dwight. But he can't guard Blake that well.

Good luck finding a PF who can guard Dwight and Blake.

rabid
07-05-2012, 03:42 PM
His twitter account still lists him working for us...

Hicks has been told by someone at PS&E that he no longer works there... it doesn't appear he has written any articles at all so far this offseason (even Larry's resignation story was written by someone else), and now he's writing for Fox Sports Midwest (which I don't remember him doing before)?

Sounds like he's gone? Knowing PS&E it's possible they are waiting to get their successor in place before announcing the transition...

:whoknows:

vnzla81
07-05-2012, 04:01 PM
Yes, but the theory (fact IMO) is that it doesn't matter where the production comes from, as long as you get what you need.

So let's look at what Roy brings, size and all:
1) Post scoring - medium, not great, unstoppable or consistent at this point, and posting West works much better most of the time

2) Rebounding - for his size, not great, but since he is so tall he does get you 8-10. So if you can get 8-10 and some blocking out to help other players get their boards you will be okay

3) Post defense - pretty good, guys can put moves on him a little but his length does give some people problems. OTOH he isn't a shut down defender at his position at all, so he's not a Dwight killer or something (like Pollard vs Shaq).

4) Shot blocking/rim defense - outstanding, intimidates tons of lane drives and covers up mistakes.


So if you traded me 98 Dale for 12 Roy and kept West on the team, your starting bigs are great and can deal with everything Roy/West can deal with, and maybe more. Dale was NOT a Max player.

Thus going for a non-max, defensive/rebounding specialist who is really strong in those roles (not just "nice" as a bench guy like Lou) could keep the team moving forward just fine. The key is you need a player that is a good starting PF who would be a Max guy IF he was strong on offense, but isn't. Does that guy exist and is he available? Maybe not, so maybe the premium on Roy is scarcity even into the 6'10" PF range, along with the dreaded "potential".



Does anyone really see Roy/West killing an Antonio/Dale front court? In fact both PFs ended up playing center elsewhere, and ditto for PF Jeff Foster. You just need to have a shot blocker and PHYSICAL rebounder that clears space to get boards or athletically challenges tons of rebounds in traffic and vertically (ie, not Tyler).

Varejao could be perfect and he only makes 10mil.

Pingu
07-05-2012, 04:05 PM
Varejao could be perfect and he only makes 10mil.

I would much rather pay Roy 14 than Varejao 10.

QuickRelease
07-05-2012, 04:09 PM
I don't think "arrogant" is a word I would ever use to define Roy. Timid is a much better descriptor.
Its really bothers me how far the pendulum has swung on Roy being loved to being apparently a selfish person.
There is a certain amount of selfishness the players can't afford to yield. It is a business decision. And if we are honest, we're selfish too as fans. We want him to take less because it hurts the team we root for if he leaves. A legitimate concern, but certainly elevating our best interest as fans over what he considers is best for his family. Roy is in a position where someone is giving him everything the system will allow, that we are apparently hesitant to provide. There is no guarantee that Roy will ever receive another max deal. There just isn't. You can't frown on the process, because it is what it is. If this is the best financial decision for him and his family, you have to wish him the best. IMHO

Sollozzo
07-05-2012, 06:00 PM
So if you traded me 98 Dale for 12 Roy and kept West on the team, your starting bigs are great and can deal with everything Roy/West can deal with, and maybe more. Dale was NOT a Max player.



By 1998, Dale had basically hit his peak. But does anyone honestly believe that a 25 y/o Roy in 2012 has already hit his peak after just 4 seasons in the league? It's possible, but not likely. This guy gets noticeably better with each passing season. Most good players don't hit their peak after just 4 years in the league. They continue to get better and peak in about their 7th or 8th season. If you match Roy, you're not merely hoping that you just get 5 years of 2012 Roy production. Instead, you are making the gamble that he will continue the year to year progression that he has shown every season and will thus be a much better player midway through that contract than he is now. If Roy can just continue to improve his offensive game then imagine the player he will be.

Tom White
07-05-2012, 06:06 PM
After basically throwing the concept of paying the max for Roy under the bus, he said an alternative would be to find a better PF and play two PF's, as long as one of the two can score in the post and one can block shots and rebound.

I hadn't really considered that, but what do you think about it?

I think it LARGELY depends on which PF you're talking about. If he means two guys the size of West or Hansbrough, hell no. But what about a 6'10 or taller PF who isn't a stick and can hold his own around the rim, and blocks shots/rebounds? Something to think about.

But no names immediately come to mind, and once we come up with a list, which of them is available and worth spending on in FA or in a trade?

I think it just shows why Conrad has always been a writer, and never held a job as a coach, gm, or player personnel man.

Tom White
07-05-2012, 06:14 PM
I like the idea myself. Of course I've always been more of a fan of a defensive anchor on the front line. Similar to how Dale Davis used to play.

Even though Davis was listed as a PF, he actually played more like a center than Smits ever did. He ALWAYS took on the other team biggest front court threat, but that was in part because Smits was awful on defense.

ksuttonjr76
07-05-2012, 06:24 PM
There is a certain amount of selfishness the players can't afford to yield. It is a business decision. And if we are honest, we're selfish too as fans. We want him to take less because it hurts the team we root for if he leaves. A legitimate concern, but certainly elevating our best interest as fans over what he considers is best for his family. Roy is in a position where someone is giving him everything the system will allow, that we are apparently hesitant to provide. There is no guarantee that Roy will ever receive another max deal. There just isn't. You can't frown on the process, because it is what it is. If this is the best financial decision for him and his family, you have to wish him the best. IMHO

Who is his "family"?

Tom White
07-05-2012, 06:26 PM
If they want to see 11,4500 average attendance again, they will let Roy go to Portland. THe community was just beginning to fall in love with this team. They will quickly fall out of love if they perceive a lack of willingness on the part of TPTB.



(maybe this WAS the wrong time to bring DW back)

I think you are absolutely right. Roy has become the public face of this team, and the fans love him. Who else do you see out and about doing the things he does? Maybe Hill time-to-time. Certainly not Granger.

Oh, and on Walsh? I don't think it was EVER time to bring him back.

mildlysane
07-05-2012, 06:26 PM
By 1998, Dale had basically hit his peak. But does anyone honestly believe that a 25 y/o Roy in 2012 has already hit his peak after just 4 seasons in the league? It's possible, but not likely. This guy gets noticeably better with each passing season. Most good players don't hit their peak after just 4 years in the league. They continue to get better and peak in about their 7th or 8th season. If you match Roy, you're not merely hoping that you just get 5 years of 2012 Roy production. Instead, you are making the gamble that he will continue the year to year progression that he has shown every season and will thus be a much better player midway through that contract than he is now. If Roy can just continue to improve his offensive game then imagine the player he will be.
True, but if he ends up going to the Blazers, he will be entering Blowoutyourkneeville, so.....

vnzla81
07-05-2012, 06:29 PM
I would much rather pay Roy 14 than Varejao 10.

Varejao and Kaman? Oh yeahh :nod:

Mac_Daddy
07-05-2012, 07:10 PM
There is a certain amount of selfishness the players can't afford to yield. It is a business decision. And if we are honest, we're selfish too as fans. We want him to take less because it hurts the team we root for if he leaves. A legitimate concern, but certainly elevating our best interest as fans over what he considers is best for his family. Roy is in a position where someone is giving him everything the system will allow, that we are apparently hesitant to provide. There is no guarantee that Roy will ever receive another max deal. There just isn't. You can't frown on the process, because it is what it is. If this is the best financial decision for him and his family, you have to wish him the best. IMHO

Oh, I'm not mad at Roy. I'm mad that people seem to be turning on him just because he wants to get paid. I'm not going to blame a guy for trying to get a raise because he's been working hard.

QuickRelease
07-05-2012, 07:49 PM
Who is his "family"?I'd argue that even if his family consisted of just him, it's enough to warrant seeking his best option. What is important is that his earning potential is through the roof right now, and we can't begrudge the guy for capitalizing on it.

BlueNGold
07-05-2012, 08:57 PM
By 1998, Dale had basically hit his peak. But does anyone honestly believe that a 25 y/o Roy in 2012 has already hit his peak after just 4 seasons in the league? It's possible, but not likely. This guy gets noticeably better with each passing season. Most good players don't hit their peak after just 4 years in the league. They continue to get better and peak in about their 7th or 8th season. If you match Roy, you're not merely hoping that you just get 5 years of 2012 Roy production. Instead, you are making the gamble that he will continue the year to year progression that he has shown every season and will thus be a much better player midway through that contract than he is now. If Roy can just continue to improve his offensive game then imagine the player he will be.

I think it's a really fair contract for both sides. He is not worth the money right now, but he's more likely to either be worth the money or be worth more. That's why this is an easy decision IMO. Worst case, we have an all-star caliber C making about 14.5M/yr. It's hardly a bad contract compared to the last decade...

QuickRelease
07-05-2012, 09:08 PM
Plus you'd hate putting all that work into Roy, and then having Portland reap the benefits of it.

Hicks
07-05-2012, 10:30 PM
Conrad is correct. Roy's scoring is not needed as long as David West is there to score down low. Danny, West, Hill, DC, Paul George are all capable scorers. Our low post offense last season was basically "your turn, my turn" with both David and Roy taking turns getting the ball in the post. If Roy leaves, and our post offense runs exclusively through David, we will be fine. To fill the void if Roy leaves, we need a center that will play hard on defense

You don't think opposing defenses won't just lock in on West if they can ignore whoever our center if he can't score?

Hicks
07-05-2012, 10:33 PM
I agree! Getting Horford for Hibbert and DC would an amazing turn of play.

Agree, but it's impossible. Roy is signing POR's offer, and the moment that happens only two things are possible: He becomes a Blazer, or he is retained by the Pacers. No trades once the contract is signed. And he won't screw over Portland by not signing after he's said he would.

Hicks
07-05-2012, 10:35 PM
Hicks has been told by someone at PS&E that he no longer works there... it doesn't appear he has written any articles at all so far this offseason (even Larry's resignation story was written by someone else), and now he's writing for Fox Sports Midwest (which I don't remember him doing before)?

Sounds like he's gone? Knowing PS&E it's possible they are waiting to get their successor in place before announcing the transition...

:whoknows:

I just realized this probably means the end of Pacers Crate. That's too bad.

ChicagoJ
07-05-2012, 11:02 PM
So then wouldn't one of the PF's be a center? Sounds like it to me....

You mean after Brad Miller left and we had JO and Foster?!??

Yikes.

ChicagoJ
07-05-2012, 11:09 PM
That's why this is an easy decision IMO. Worst case, we have an all-star caliber C making about 14.5M/yr. It's hardly a bad contract compared to the last decade...

Exactly.

Foul on Smits
07-06-2012, 03:52 AM
How about we stop being morons and just pay Roy the max and enjoy an All Star center for the next five years. Seriously, what is the issue here? This shouldn't be a debate.

Foul on Smits
07-06-2012, 09:11 AM
Some of you really need to open your minds. We're not just investing in some seven foot, 14 and 8 bum. Aside from the defensive presence he presents in the paint, which by the way, would be devastating to lose, there's not many players with the work ethic he has. He's dramatically improved his game every year he's been in the league. Emphasis on ” game”. There's a lot more to the game than just points and rebounds. And oh by the way. Those are going to improve too. He works too hard not too.

His defensive presence isnt nothing compared to his community presence. Area 51, Boys and Girls club. He's been representing us brilliantly on national tv. The other night I asked him on twitter if he was watching the fights, he said ” were you watching, I could come to your house and chill”. I mean I know its just joshing, but I'm talking to a All Star center. I'm talking to someone I'm 100% confident,.will lead my favorite team to a NBA championship and lead me to the drunkest night of party in my life.

I'll max deal that any day. Its not even up for discussion and im sure Pritchard is just trying to screw with Paul Allens offseason. I wouldn't be suprised if Portland pulls the deal to save face.

duke dynamite
07-06-2012, 09:17 AM
Jeff Tzucker is the new web manager for the Pacers.

wintermute
07-06-2012, 09:44 AM
Dale Davis would absolutely be a center in today's game. He'd easily be paid 8 figures too.


Varejao and Kaman? Oh yeahh :nod:

While I really like Varejao, aren't you at least concerned that Varejao has only played in 56 games and Kaman only in 79 games over the past 2 seasons (out of a possible 147 games total). It's like you get a complete player by adding both together. In contrast, Hibbert has played in 146 games, and the game he missed was because we had our playoff spot locked.

vnzla81
07-06-2012, 09:57 AM
Dale Davis would absolutely be a center in today's game. He'd easily be paid 8 figures too.



While I really like Varejao, aren't you at least concerned that Varejao has only played in 56 games and Kaman only in 79 games over the past 2 seasons (out of a possible 147 games total). It's like you get a complete player by adding both together. In contrast, Hibbert has played in 146 games, and the game he missed was because we had our playoff spot locked.

I expect the Pacers to do some research and see how healthy this guys are, do you remember the time Tyson Chandler was some kind of injury prone?

matthewfcurrie
07-06-2012, 10:26 AM
With the Pacers pretty much rebuilding everything about the franchise, you can't lose Hibbert. The fans are just starting to come back to support the Pacers, & letting arguably the most popular player on the roster go is a HUGE mistake. And thats just half of the debate.

How many legit Centres are there in the NBA? Across 30 teams, I can only think of Howard, Bynam, Chandler, Hibbert, Bogut & Perkins that are legit centres. There are people like Garnett, Jefferson & Duncan who play centre, but they are really PFs. I don't see another guy who brings 7'2" plus wingspan to the table every night. Height is the 1 thing in basketball you cant teach.

Also, at just 25, no one has the ceiling that Hibbert has. He is already an All-Star, is a legit MIP award candidate, & still wants to improve his overall game. Some guys rely on natural talent & ability, other guys work harder to enhance theirs

Unclebuck
07-06-2012, 10:54 AM
How about we stop being morons and just pay Roy the max and enjoy an All Star center for the next five years. Seriously, what is the issue here? This shouldn't be a debate.

I'm a little confused. Are you saying some in this forum are morons or the Pacers are being morons?

Some in the forum are looking for alternatives just in case the pacers don't re-sign him. The Pacers will respond after the offer sheet is officially signed by Roy

Foul on Smits
07-06-2012, 11:14 AM
There is no just in case. Indiana needs to sign him.

Larry Staverman
07-06-2012, 11:19 AM
Here is the part I don't understand.

In January Falk and Hibbert told the front office they weren't interested in an extension and wanted to play out the season and become a RFA. At that point they had to realize that Roy getting a max offer was a real possibility.

Since Roy played well and made the all star team his value didn't decrease after that.

So if the front office knew at that time they would not want to match a max offer, and Roy's value has probably gone up since then, why wouldn't they trade him at the deadline instead of risking coming away with nothing.

My point is if the front office was prepared for all scenarios, and they didn't trade Hibbert, they have to match Portland's offer.

Brad8888
07-06-2012, 12:21 PM
So, did this topic come from a private conversation or a radio spot or is there a link?

I, too, would like to know what was actually stated if there is a link because it could provide insight from somebody with at least a semblance of direct connection to the situation. That way we would be able to judge for ourselves.

Brad8888
07-06-2012, 12:28 PM
What do you think is going to happen? Will the Pacers keep Roy, or is he in dire need of espresso, crisp Pacific air, and chasing the dream becoming the next Bill Walton where many knees have failed before?

Speed
07-06-2012, 12:32 PM
Here is the part I don't understand.

In January Falk and Hibbert told the front office they weren't interested in an extension and wanted to play out the season and become a RFA. At that point they had to realize that Roy getting a max offer was a real possibility.

Since Roy played well and made the all star team his value didn't decrease after that.

So if the front office knew at that time they would not want to match a max offer, and Roy's value has probably gone up since then, why wouldn't they trade him at the deadline instead of risking coming away with nothing.

My point is if the front office was prepared for all scenarios, and they didn't trade Hibbert, they have to match Portland's offer.

I figured they offered a decent offer, thought he'd get a max from someone, possibly. Which was okay, since, you now have a deal for 4 years, instead of 5 and for only 4.5% raises instead of 7%? I mean, in a way, if they match, Portland did them a favor by allowing for less years and smaller raises. Same situation with EJ for NO. Its why people are saying all max contracts aren't created equal.

I think in the new CBA, the ony way you say, I will give you the max to return with full money for 5 years is if it really is a Franchise guy, then you do that ASAP, cuz its Durant or DRose or someone who clearly is the guy.