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View Full Version : Thank goodness for the lockout



Shade
07-04-2012, 09:13 PM
Glad to see the new CBA hinder the formation of superteams and stifle inflated contract offers.

Nice job, Stern.

Sandman21
07-04-2012, 09:14 PM
The LA thing is hardly a superteam.

Heisenberg
07-04-2012, 09:15 PM
The league can't control the priorities of their players.

OlBlu
07-04-2012, 09:19 PM
The LA thing is hardly a superteam.

It looks mighty good to me for the next couple of years.... If they trade Bynum for Howard, it will look even better!! :cool:

Anthem
07-04-2012, 09:20 PM
Woulda been worse without a lockout.

LA seems like a weird choice, though. Who's gonna hold the ball?

Pacersalltheway10
07-04-2012, 09:23 PM
There should at least be a penalty for joining other superstars or something. Like forcing or requesting trades, for example if Howard is traded to the Nets they should give up a fine or draft picks because he requested to be traded.

Hicks
07-04-2012, 09:26 PM
Glad to see the new CBA hinder the formation of superteams and stifle inflated contract offers.

Nice job, Stern.

To be fair, Nash is hardly an entering-his-prime best player in the game guy who is choosing to 'take his talents' elsewhere. Deron Williams re-signed with his own team. That team had to eat a huge contract to get Joe Johnson, and they overpaid Gerald Wallace.

To be more fair, let's see how things look starting next summer when the MUCH meaner luxury tax kicks in.

Hicks
07-04-2012, 09:27 PM
There should at least be a penalty for joining other superstars or something. Like forcing or requesting trades, for example if Howard is traded to the Nets they should give up a fine or draft picks because he requested to be traded.

If they wanted to try harder to diversify top talent (to avoid Shaq/Kobe, LeBron/Wade type team-ups), they would have annual votes to designate classification of each players' skill class, and then have the CBA state that no single team can have to Class A players or whatnot. Something to at least keep the dozen best players on 12 separate teams, at least.

Willbo
07-04-2012, 09:28 PM
Well the owners should hold out next CBA negotiation for a provision that requires player's family and loved ones to be even distributed around the nation.

Karlton
07-04-2012, 09:28 PM
There should at least be a penalty for joining other superstars or something. Like forcing or requesting trades, for example if Howard is traded to the Nets they should give up a fine or draft picks because he requested to be traded.

I don't post here much, so maybe someone can help me out.

Is there an 'anti-thanks' or a 'boo this man' button I can use?

Day-V
07-04-2012, 09:28 PM
TTo be more fair, let's see how things look starting next summer when the MUCH meaner luxury tax kicks in.

I can't wait for that day.

shags
07-04-2012, 09:29 PM
To be fair, Nash is hardly an entering-his-prime best player in the game guy who is choosing to 'take his talents' elsewhere. Deron Williams re-signed with his own team. That team had to eat a huge contract to get Joe Johnson, and they overpaid Gerald Wallace.

To be more fair, let's see how things look starting next summer when the MUCH meaner luxury tax kicks in.

Plus next year the Lakers wouldn't be able to make this trade with that much team salary. Teams $4 million above the luxury tax won't be allowed to make sign and trades. Teams were given a 2 year grace period.

rabid
07-04-2012, 09:29 PM
The league can't control the priorities of their players.

Neither can the NFL, yet somehow the NFL seems to have much more parity...

Steagles
07-04-2012, 09:31 PM
This isn't really a superteam- its cap hell in 2 years.

Heisenberg
07-04-2012, 09:31 PM
Neither can the NFL, yet somehow the NFL seems to have much more parity...
Because there's 53 guys on a football team and it's a far more complex game.

shags
07-04-2012, 09:32 PM
Neither can the NFL, yet somehow the NFL seems to have much more parity...

That's because one player can make more difference in the NBA than in any other sport.

Plus 3 teams have made the Super Bowl out of the AFC in the past 9 years. I'd hardly call that parity.

Karlton
07-04-2012, 09:33 PM
Neither can the NFL, yet somehow the NFL seems to have much more parity...

As I said in a different thread: Hard Cap and No Max Salaries.

As an example from this year, you think Mario Williams ends up in Buffalo if they can't overpay?

Hicks
07-04-2012, 09:34 PM
Plus next year the Lakers wouldn't be able to make this trade with that much team salary. Teams $4 million above the luxury tax won't be allowed to make sign and trades. Teams were given a 2 year grace period.

Wow, I guess I forgot about that one completely. Interesting.

Day-V
07-04-2012, 09:41 PM
I just did the math. Next year, as it stands now, Kobe, Gasol, and Nash would account for pretty much $58M against the cap.

Wow.

shags
07-04-2012, 09:45 PM
Wow, I guess I forgot about that one completely. Interesting.

Yup. So, in addition to the punitive luxury tax, high spending teams have a lower MLE, no biannual exception ($1.9 million), and no sign and trades. Starting next season.

So I agree that next year will be interesting for the new CBA ramifications.

Shade
07-04-2012, 09:49 PM
That's because one player can make more difference in the NBA than in any other sport.

Plus 3 teams have made the Super Bowl out of the AFC in the past 9 years. I'd hardly call that parity.

This just isn't true. QBs are more important to an NFL team than any single player on an NBA team.

shags
07-04-2012, 09:56 PM
This just isn't true. QBs are more important to an NFL team than any single player on an NBA team.

Good point. I mean the Patriots were just awful the year they lost Brady.

Oh wait. Never mind.

Day-V
07-04-2012, 09:59 PM
Good point. I mean the Patriots were just awful the year they lost Brady.

Oh wait. Never mind.

2011 Colts sans Manning.

You honestly knew this was coming.

Hoop
07-04-2012, 09:59 PM
This just isn't true. QBs are more important to an NFL team than any single player on an NBA team.
Jeff Hostetler, Mark Rypien, Trent Diefer and Brad Johnson flash their rings and say Hi

Day-V
07-04-2012, 10:02 PM
Jeff Hostetler, Mark Rypien, Trent Diefer and Brad Johnson flash their rings and say Hi

Different Era of Football. Defense doesn't win Championships on it's own now. Gotta has a thrower, too.

Shade
07-04-2012, 10:08 PM
Good point. I mean the Patriots were just awful the year they lost Brady.

Oh wait. Never mind.

You mean the same Pats team that didn't make the playoffs?

shags
07-04-2012, 10:08 PM
2011 Colts sans Manning.

You honestly knew this was coming.

Of course I did. :) I'm a Bears fan, and their season went in the crapper after Cutler got hurt. I'd argue both teams weren't prepared for the loss and had awful backup QBs.

But, T.J. Yates won a playoff game this year. He was a third string rookie. If you have a decent backup QB (thank goodness the Bears signed Campbell), both teams might have made the playoffs.

shags
07-04-2012, 10:09 PM
You mean the same Pats team that didn't make the playoffs?

And finished 11-5. That's still pretty damn good considering they lost arguably the best player in football the entire season.

Pacersalltheway10
07-04-2012, 10:11 PM
I don't post here much, so maybe someone can help me out.

Is there an 'anti-thanks' or a 'boo this man' button I can use?

Really? You're ok with players requesting trades while acting out like Howard has done and reward him for it? If you signed the contract, the team should be able to control where the player goes not the player until he hits free agency.

CJ Jones
07-04-2012, 10:13 PM
Good point. I mean the Patriots were just awful the year they lost Brady.

Oh wait. Never mind.

I'm pretty sure Matt Cassel was an All Pro a couple years later with the Chiefs. He's pretty good.

TJ Yates and the Texans beat the Bengals... cmon man, they don't count.

vnzla81
07-04-2012, 10:14 PM
Hey we are at least able to make moves because we have cap space and have pieces that people want unlike the Lakers...... oh wait....

shags
07-04-2012, 10:15 PM
I'm pretty sure Matt Cassel was an All Pro a couple years later with the Chiefs. He's pretty good.

You just proved my point. The Patriots were prepared for the situation and were able to compete when Brady got hurt, unlike the Colts and, to a lesser extent, the Bears last season.

ECKrueger
07-04-2012, 10:16 PM
Jeff Hostetler, Mark Rypien, Trent Diefer and Brad Johnson flash their rings and say Hi

Hey, Brad was a pretty good QB!

Day-V
07-04-2012, 10:23 PM
You just proved my point. The Patriots were prepared for the situation and were able to compete when Brady got hurt, unlike the Colts and, to a lesser extent, the Bears last season.

Let's be honest, no one thought Cassell would be able to win a single game, much less fill the void left by Brady. It's not like anyone was saying before Week 2 of 2007, "Oh, don't worry about the Pats. Thankfully they have Matt Cassell, a guy who hadn't started a game since High School, taking over. The Pats will be just fine."

Pacersalltheway10
07-04-2012, 10:24 PM
NBA attendance is going down every year now. There will be a point where even the most die hard of fans will give up. Having superteams appeals to the casual fans but the casual fans arent the ones who show up to every game and spend thousands on season tickets and tons of merchandise. They'll buy a jersey, sure. It sould seem superteams would benefit ESPN more than the NBA. We really are headed for an NBA that will only be about 10-15 teams. Too many teams are losing money and there is absolutely no hope to ever compete. It's going to get worse in the coming years, just watch.

Pacers
07-04-2012, 10:25 PM
I'm pretty sure Matt Cassel was an All Pro a couple years later with the Chiefs. He's pretty good.


Wow. No. Just no.

Sandman21
07-04-2012, 10:26 PM
NBA attendance is going down every year now. There will be a point where even the most die hard of fans will give up. Having superteams appeals to the casual fans but the casual fans arent the ones who show up to every game and spend thousands on season tickets and tons of merchandise. They'll buy a jersey, sure. It sould seem superteams would benefit ESPN more than the NBA. We really are headed for an NBA that will only be about 10-15 teams. Too many teams are losing money and there is absolutely no hope to ever compete. It's going to get worse in the coming years, just watch.

Let's come back to this after the more punitive luxury tax kicks in.

shags
07-04-2012, 10:27 PM
Let's be honest, no one thought Cassell would be able to win a single game, much less fill the void left by Brady. It's not like anyone was saying before Week 2 of 2007, "Oh, don't worry about the Pats. Thankfully they have Matt Cassell, a guy who hadn't started a game since High School, taking over. The Pats will be just fine."

You're completely right. But that means the Patriots had a "system" that allowed them to experience some success without Brady.

The best example I can think of from the NBA is when the Bulls won 55 games after Jordan retired the first time. They didn't win the title, but you could certainly classify them as contenders that season.

Pacersalltheway10
07-04-2012, 10:28 PM
Let's come back to this after the more punitive luxury tax kicks in.
I doubt it makes a difference to super teams. Players will just accept less to fit more people in. There's loopholes for everything.

Pacersalltheway10
07-04-2012, 10:37 PM
Face it people no matter what happens the Pacers will never win an NBA championship and neither will about 23 or so other NBA teams. David Stern built the NBA into a money powerhouse. That's all it will be. If you don't have the market then you won't have success unless you tank and get a great pick.... then when they become stars they will bolt for the largest market that can take them. Durant and Duncan are the exceptions, not the rule. So don't bring up OKC and SAS. They got lucky they have stars who want to stay.

Karlton
07-05-2012, 12:48 AM
Really? You're ok with players requesting trades while acting out like Howard has done and reward him for it? If you signed the contract, the team should be able to control where the player goes not the player until he hits free agency.

I'm okay with any party using any leverage they have, so long as it's legal and they fulfill their own obligations.

spreedom
07-05-2012, 08:20 AM
You're completely right. But that means the Patriots had a "system" that allowed them to experience some success without Brady.

The best example I can think of from the NBA is when the Bulls won 55 games after Jordan retired the first time. They didn't win the title, but you could certainly classify them as contenders that season.

Or how about this year, when the Bulls were the #1 seed in the East without a healthy Derrick Rose for most of the season?

Kstat
07-05-2012, 08:25 AM
Face it people no matter what happens the Pacers will never win an NBA championship and neither will about 23 or so other NBA teams. David Stern built the NBA into a money powerhouse. That's all it will be. If you don't have the market then you won't have success unless you tank and get a great pick.... then when they become stars they will bolt for the largest market that can take them. Durant and Duncan are the exceptions, not the rule. So don't bring up OKC and SAS. They got lucky they have stars who want to stay.

Boy I sure am glad The pistons play in a mega market....those 3 championships would never have happened if all those NBA players werent falling all over each other to play in Detroit.

Unclebuck
07-05-2012, 08:26 AM
NBA attendance is going down every year now. .

That is simply not a true statement. Although you didn't give any parameters, but it is false to suggest that attenadnace has gone down "every year now" No matter what parameters you want to use. That is simply not true

Kstat
07-05-2012, 08:27 AM
Really? You're ok with players requesting trades while acting out like Howard has done and reward him for it? If you signed the contract, the team should be able to control where the player goes not the player until he hits free agency.

I'm sorry, is Howard stopping the magic from trading him? Is he refusing to report to any other teams?

Or do you just have a very hard time telling the difference between "controlling where the player goes" and "controlling the player?"

If Orlando wanted to get maximum value for Howard, they should have traded him two years ago, when teams would have been more willing to give up a lot for him.

Now? Any team is going to want an assurance on an extension, and why wouldn't they? Howard only has a year until he's a free agent.

Howard is under NO OBLIGATION to make it easier for Orlando to trade him. His only obligation is to show up to work and play hard.

graphic-er
07-05-2012, 08:38 AM
Pacers had their chance to build their own Super team and they blew it. Hill, Gordon, Granger, West, Hibbert would be a championship contender.
Too concerned with keeping cap flexibility to compete.

mildlysane
07-05-2012, 08:38 AM
It looks mighty good to me for the next couple of years.... If they trade Bynum for Howard, it will look even better!! :cool:

Wait..what?! I take it back. You are a troll. At least be consistent.

Hicks
07-05-2012, 10:11 AM
Pacers had their chance to build their own Super team and they blew it. Hill, Gordon, Granger, West, Hibbert would be a championship contender.
Too concerned with keeping cap flexibility to compete.

In a world where your speculation is stone cold fact, then, yeah, sure.

Speed
07-05-2012, 10:20 AM
Pacers had their chance to build their own Super team and they blew it. Hill, Gordon, Granger, West, Hibbert would be a championship contender.
Too concerned with keeping cap flexibility to compete.

Just saw that Hornets will match Suns offer.

Kurt Helin (http://twitter.com/basketballtalk): Multiple sources confirm Hornets to match offer, keep Gordon http://dlvr.it/1phqK5 #PBT (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23PBT) #NBA (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23NBA) about 47 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/basketballtalk/statuses/220871538197528578)

Read more: http://hoopshype.com/twitter/media.html#ixzz1zl4RUb64

graphic-er
07-05-2012, 10:27 AM
Just saw that Hornets will match Suns offer.

Kurt Helin (http://twitter.com/basketballtalk): Multiple sources confirm Hornets to match offer, keep Gordon http://dlvr.it/1phqK5 #PBT (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23PBT) #NBA (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23NBA) about 47 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/basketballtalk/statuses/220871538197528578)

Read more: http://hoopshype.com/twitter/media.html#ixzz1zl4RUb64

If the Pacers were smart they would offer a shorter max contract to match up with Granger's expiring contract, that way Gordon become a UFA and then Indiana has the money to sign him out right. Gordon might take it just to get out of NOLA sooner.

Still they might say they will match PHX's offer, but PHX still has the ability to negotiate a sign and trade. Indiana dont' even have a dog in the fight right now. If I am a Sun's fan I feel good about our franchise trying.

Rogco
07-05-2012, 10:27 AM
Plus next year the Lakers wouldn't be able to make this trade with that much team salary. Teams $4 million above the luxury tax won't be allowed to make sign and trades. Teams were given a 2 year grace period.

This is the thing that might help make a difference. The problem is the grace period on the new CBA was bad for the Pacers, who are well positioned salary wise right now.

Kid Minneapolis
07-05-2012, 10:36 AM
I dunno, I'd qualify LA as a 3-headed monster now, you could argue 4-headed. Kobe, Nash, Pau and Bynum are all better than anyone on our roster.

And you also have a monster forming in Brooklyn.

Steagles
07-05-2012, 10:36 AM
If the Pacers were smart they would offer a shorter max contract to match up with Granger's expiring contract, that way Gordon become a UFA and then Indiana has the money to sign him out right. Gordon might take it just to get out of NOLA sooner.

Still they might say they will match PHX's offer, but PHX still has the ability to negotiate a sign and trade. Indiana dont' even have a dog in the fight right now. If I am a Sun's fan I feel good about our franchise trying.

I applaud the efforts but the team is going to be awful and awful expensive.

Marshall/Dragic
Gordon
Beasley
Lopez
Gortat

On paper it looks good but I still have my doubts. I think they won't last in the dogfight of the west. Even then this is saying NOLA doesn't match EJ, but they will.

Really?
07-05-2012, 10:43 AM
I applaud the efforts but the team is going to be awful and awful expensive.

Marshall/Dragic
Gordon
Beasley
Lopez
Gortat

On paper it looks good but I still have my doubts. I think they won't last in the dogfight of the west. Even then this is saying NOLA doesn't match EJ, but they will.

Probably not, but it is a good young group that will grow together over time, should be interesting to see how it goes, if NO doesn't match.

Team Indy
07-05-2012, 01:16 PM
Shorter contracts have the unintended effect of allowing superstars to expire at the same time. This seldom happened with 7 year contracts. I do think there should be a rule that teams losing players they want to keep should get a trade exception for that player's first year contract or the size of their losing bid.

Pacersalltheway10
07-05-2012, 01:28 PM
That is simply not a true statement. Although you didn't give any parameters, but it is false to suggest that attenadnace has gone down "every year now" No matter what parameters you want to use. That is simply not true

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2010/02/Issue-114/The-Back-Of-The-Book/NBA-Attendance-Down-15-Bobcats-Seeing-Gains-In-Charlotte.aspx

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/blog/2012/02/nba-attendance-flat-this-season.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/nba-attendance-is-downagain-2010-12?op=1

Some are from 2010 and other from this year.

Pacersalltheway10
07-05-2012, 01:33 PM
Boy I sure am glad The pistons play in a mega market....those 3 championships would never have happened if all those NBA players werent falling all over each other to play in Detroit.

cut the sarcastic **** Kstat , 2004 Pistons are just another exception. Quit acting like its the rule.

Kstat
07-05-2012, 01:46 PM
Who said it was the rule? I'm saying there isnt only one way to do things.

Unclebuck
07-05-2012, 01:49 PM
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2010/02/Issue-114/The-Back-Of-The-Book/NBA-Attendance-Down-15-Bobcats-Seeing-Gains-In-Charlotte.aspx

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/blog/2012/02/nba-attendance-flat-this-season.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/nba-attendance-is-downagain-2010-12?op=1

Some are from 2010 and other from this year.

OK, a couple of things.

I was responding to your phrase "every year now". Which means to me that there is a growing trend towards decreased attendance over a few years. I wopuld have argued with someone who said that attendance grows every year now. No that isn't true either, it is about the same every year. A few teams drop like the Cavs and Suns while a few teams rise like the Sixers. It usually evens out. What did grow attendance over the years was when new buildings were built that either had larger capacity or generated increased fan interest in the market

The first link was from 2010 and was only through mid February. the second link was from 2012 and indicates attendance is flat. and the third link is from 2010 and only through December.

So I stand by my comments that it is simply not true that attendance is down every year now. it is very stable and pretty much the same every year.

Trying to find a link which just states total attendance figures for the entire league.
http://www.insidehoops.com/attendance.shtml

According to this league wide attendance dropped .3% this year. That is very small.
http://www.iamagm.com/news/2012/05/02/chart.complete.2011.12.nba.attendance.figures.team .highlighted.sixers.19.and

Pacers
07-05-2012, 02:37 PM
I still don't know why we can't sign EJ to a contract that is specifically worded to prevent the Hornets from realistically matching it.

Kstat
07-05-2012, 02:39 PM
...maybe because that would be (1) illegal under the CBA, and (2) he's already committed to Phoenix (and NOLA when they match)?

Pacers
07-05-2012, 02:44 PM
1) Is it?
2) He's not committed to anyone until he puts his name on the line.

Kstat
07-05-2012, 03:00 PM
1) Is it?
2) He's not committed to anyone until he puts his name on the line.

Of course it is. Do you think the nba would allow teams to circumvent the rules with silly wording like that?

And he's committed. If you'd like to wait for July 11 so you can personally know Gordon ha signed Phoenix's offer sheet, so be it. Players and teams do not back out of agreements made during the waiting period.

Gordon is off the market, whether you want to believe it or not.

Pacers
07-05-2012, 09:13 PM
Of course it is. Do you think the nba would allow teams to circumvent the rules with silly wording like that?

And he's committed. If you'd like to wait for July 11 so you can personally know Gordon ha signed Phoenix's offer sheet, so be it. Players and teams do not back out of agreements made during the waiting period.

Gordon is off the market, whether you want to believe it or not.

1. The NFL has had contracts like this before, so it's not totally unheard of.

2.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/07/06/sports/06nba-1/06nba-1-articleInline-v2.jpg

Also:

http://a.espncdn.com/media/nba/2004/0709/photo/g_boozer_i.jpg

Nothing is official until it is official.