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View Full Version : Is contraction of 20-30% of the league, the only outcome of the SuperTeam Movement



*astrisk*
07-03-2012, 10:34 AM
Is the SuperTeam Movement to Big Markets going to ultimately cause the demise and ultimate contraction of the irrelevant bottom 4th of the league?

I believe that there is NO DOUBT!

I appreciate that stars will take less to collaborate in an effort to circumvent the cap in an attempt to win a championship...

What answers do the Pacers Digest Cap experts suggest in order to keep this from occurring?

Hard Cap in combination with increased minimums?

We need competitive balance!!!

Kstat
07-03-2012, 10:36 AM
Who's taking less to play in Brooklyn?

Speed
07-03-2012, 10:41 AM
I thought Bill Simmons wrote another article and this would be the link.

*astrisk*
07-03-2012, 10:47 AM
Who's taking less to play in Brooklyn?

Why do you feel the need to turn this into a forum arguement by trying pinpoint one example where besides Deron nobody else is signing. And I didn't say that Brooklyn necessarily was thefocal point of my post. But Atlanta has also positioned themselves to sign 2-3 stars next year to midlevel non Max deals...

Slick Pinkham
07-03-2012, 10:49 AM
We have had 6 different champions in the last 10 years and before that we had only 7 different champions in a run of 23 years.

The recent increase in parity has been pretty good, I think

BrownBearCoffee
07-03-2012, 10:52 AM
I used to think super teams would cause this, too. However, I am now of the opinion that they are improving ratings for the league, which will in-turn help all teams because of the increased revenue sharing in the new CBA. In other words, no: people love to root against Goliath.

Larry Staverman
07-03-2012, 10:54 AM
Is the SuperTeam Movement to Big Markets going to ultimately cause the demise and ultimate contraction of the irrelevant bottom 4th of the league?

Way too early to come to that conclusion.

The pain of the new luxury tax does not kick in until next year. There is no guarantee that any of those teams will win the title and several of them will always end up losers but they will all be writing a big checks each year. Also if they have an injury like Derrick Rose and a year gets wiped out they still have to write a big check even if they are losing.

The next 5 years will test the super team model but no one knows how it will turn out.

*astrisk*
07-03-2012, 10:55 AM
Regardless of how they get there is insignificant to the fact that the players are still circumventing the cap to force trades that are unfair and handicap franchises for years...

Kstat
07-03-2012, 10:57 AM
Nobody is forcing Orlando to make this deal, and they're idiots if they do.

They can get more than this garbage from any number of teams that just want to rent dwight for a year.

*astrisk*
07-03-2012, 11:07 AM
I used to think super teams would cause this, too. However, I am now of the opinion that they are improving ratings for the league, which will in-turn help all teams because of the increased revenue sharing in the new CBA. In other words, no: people love to root against Goliath.

I don't disagree that increased revenue sharing, but does it offset the loss that the little guys will be taking by not having their own stars for their fans to show up and watch? I don't know, to me, I don't appreciate watching my team lose half the time and fight for the 8th seed so long as we're not losing money...

Kegboy
07-03-2012, 11:07 AM
If a lack of competitive balance hasn't forced MLB teams to contract, it sure as hell isn't going to happen in the NBA.

*astrisk*
07-03-2012, 11:08 AM
Nobody is forcing Orlando to make this deal, and they're idiots if they do.

They can get more than this garbage from any number of teams that just want to rent dwight for a year.

I hope they make him suffer..

Kstat
07-03-2012, 11:09 AM
I don't disagree that increased revenue sharing, but does it offset the loss that the little guys will be taking by not having their own stars for their fans to show up and watch? I don't know, to me, I don't appreciate watching my team lose half the time and fight for the 8th seed so long as we're not losing money...

If teams did a better job building around their stars, theyd be less likely to leave.

I'd add that the Nets have not SIGNED any other teams' free agents. The traded lottery picks for both Deron and Wallace, and Joe Johnson was gift-wrapped to them because Atlanta didn't want to pay his salary anymore.

And again, the NBA isn't to blame for Dwight Howard getting traded to New Jersey. That's just bad management.

Karlton
07-03-2012, 11:12 AM
Is the SuperTeam Movement to Big Markets going to ultimately cause the demise and ultimate contraction of the irrelevant bottom 4th of the league?

I believe that there is NO DOUBT!

I appreciate that stars will take less to collaborate in an effort to circumvent the cap in an attempt to win a championship...

What answers do the Pacers Digest Cap experts suggest in order to keep this from occurring?

Hard Cap in combination with increased minimums?

We need competitive balance!!!

1) Hard Cap

2) No maximum contracts

The problem with the 'Super Team' movement is that it's driven by players that are all max players. If every team can offer them the same amount of money, then they will use other criteria to determine where they're going to sign such as surrounding talent, available media/promotion, and even weather.

If you want to avoid the Super Teams, you let the teams like the Bobcats offer a player like James $30/40M per year. Not all players will go for more money, but at least having the option of offering more money gives the smaller market teams something to offer a big FA over a bigger market team that may not have the same cap space.

Kstat
07-03-2012, 11:18 AM
...so what's the point of having a draft? Teams like OKC would get penalized for drafting well, while teams would clear cap room even more than they already are to pick the bones of any team with the misfortune of drafting more than one superstar.

indygeezer
07-03-2012, 11:20 AM
I dont know about team balance etc. but teams located in states with no income tax have an advantage right from the start. (Florida and Texas come to mind immediately). That's like allowing them an extra 2-3% (or more) on the salary each year.

Mac_Daddy
07-03-2012, 11:22 AM
If this somehow does happen and they pay Howard and DWill the max, that's gonna be close to $70 million between 4 players on the team. Lovely.

Slick Pinkham
07-03-2012, 11:25 AM
I dont know about team balance etc. but teams located in states with no income tax have an advantage right from the start. (Florida and Texas come to mind immediately). That's like allowing them an extra 2-3% (or more) on the salary each year.

Oregon has an 11% income tax on income over 250K. So a 30 million dollar offer from Portland equates to a 26.7M offer from a Florida or Texas team, on that factor alone. Indiana's is 3.4%.

http://taxes.about.com/od/statetaxes/a/highest-state-income-tax-rates.htm

I know that some states can legally collect income tax from visiting players, which seems like a ripoff, so the numbers aren't exact.

Karlton
07-03-2012, 11:35 AM
...so what's the point of having a draft? Teams like OKC would get penalized for drafting well, while teams would clear cap room even more than they already are to pick the bones of any team with the misfortune of drafting more than one superstar.

Firstly, you still get a good player at a bargain rate for 4-5 years. Secondly, while it allows the money to be an issue, you're not going to constantly see every player chasing it. Kevin Durant is not going to sign with a Bobcats team for $3M more. Lastly, while I almost always side with the owners on labor disputes, the phrase "misfortune of drafting more than one superstar" is nonsense. It reeks of team ownership of a player even after the initial contract is up. Having a top player for 4-5 years on a bargain rookie contract is not a 'misfortune' because the player's value has increased, it's a blessing they had the player for so long for so cheap. If they value a player enough, they can make moves to keep him, if they don't then they don't have to, but I do not believe for a second that having to choose between star players is a misfortune because the team doesn't have some intrinsic right to the player after his contract is up. If they've got a good enough product to offer, then the player will stay.

Smits Happens
07-03-2012, 11:36 AM
Oregon has an 11% income tax on income over 250K. So a 30 million dollar offer from Portland equates to a 26.7M offer from a Florida or Texas team, on that factor alone. Indiana's is 3.4%.

http://taxes.about.com/od/statetaxes/a/highest-state-income-tax-rates.htm

I know that some states can legally collect income tax from visiting players, which seems like a ripoff, so the numbers aren't exact.

Does a certain 7-2 center from Georgetown know this?!?!

Karlton
07-03-2012, 11:40 AM
Does a certain 7-2 center from Georgetown know this?!?!

If he reads his twitter follower's feeds he does now...

*astrisk*
07-03-2012, 11:42 AM
If this somehow does happen and they pay Howard and DWill the max, that's gonna be close to $70 million between 4 players on the team. Lovely.

But owner is a Billionaire , putting a championship contending franchise in New York City... He will still profit boatloads!

Kstat
07-03-2012, 11:43 AM
assuming he wins a championship, he'll break even. This is not at all about money to him, it's about raising his profile and having a shiny new toy to brag about.

OlBlu
07-03-2012, 11:47 AM
Is the SuperTeam Movement to Big Markets going to ultimately cause the demise and ultimate contraction of the irrelevant bottom 4th of the league?

I believe that there is NO DOUBT!

I appreciate that stars will take less to collaborate in an effort to circumvent the cap in an attempt to win a championship...

What answers do the Pacers Digest Cap experts suggest in order to keep this from occurring?

Hard Cap in combination with increased minimums?

We need competitive balance!!!

There will never be competitive balance in the NBA, the money streams forbid it. There won't be any contraction either. People still buy these franchises and most CLAIM to lose money but the value of the team keeps going up and up. Some of these teams and this includes the Pacers lose money because they want to lose money. If you see the books, you will see family members getting paid for supposed services but on some teams, that is just a sham. They lose money on paper but not really when you factor in the increasing value of the team......:cool:

*astrisk*
07-03-2012, 11:49 AM
assuming he wins a championship, he'll break even. This is not at all about money to him, it's about raising his profile and having a shiny new toy to brag about.

Don't underestimate the effect Prokhorovs international reach as Presidential candidate in Russia and owner of a NYC franchise will have on his profits...

OlBlu
07-03-2012, 11:50 AM
Nobody is forcing Orlando to make this deal, and they're idiots if they do.

They can get more than this garbage from any number of teams that just want to rent dwight for a year.

No, they can't and that offer isn't garbage. There is some wood in there. Orlando is not going to be as good when Howard leaves no matter what they get. I find it funny that some people, like you, think the offer is garbage and others think they are giving way more than Howard's value to get him. I think the truth is probably somewhere inbetween the two views......:cool:

*astrisk*
07-03-2012, 11:51 AM
There will never be competitive balance in the NBA, the money streams forbid it. There won't be any contraction either. People still buy these franchises and most CLAIM to lose money but the value of the team keeps going up and up. Some of these teams and this includes the Pacers lose money because they want to lose money. If you see the books, you will see family members getting paid for supposed services but on some teams, that is just a sham. They lose money on paper but not really when you factor in the increasing value of the team......:cool:

Good point olblu

OlBlu
07-03-2012, 11:51 AM
assuming he wins a championship, he'll break even. This is not at all about money to him, it's about raising his profile and having a shiny new toy to brag about.

He is in New York and he is going to make lots of money with this team with or without a championship........:cool:

graphic-er
07-03-2012, 01:20 PM
I hope they make him suffer..
At this point Orlando should just Bench him for the whole year to make a point.

Lurkster
07-03-2012, 01:25 PM
Wake up, the league has never had competitive balance. Nothing has changed. There won't ever be (significant) contraction.

daschysta
07-03-2012, 02:12 PM
No.

You guys are acting like Miami steamrolled through and just dominated us or any other team (especially in the east).

The heat are one way to build a team, a risky one actually, demonstrated by Bosh's injury that almost cost them a title. We can compete with them if we continue to improve and grow.

Slick Pinkham
07-03-2012, 02:39 PM
...The heat are one way to build a team, a risky one actually...

Risky due to depth, and also risky because you clear the decks and then the guys who you wanted do not come.

The Heat succeeded.
The Knicks failed miserably with the same idea.
The Nets and Mavs are trying it now, and maybe the Hawks as well.

This team-building method is thus 1-1 and may be 1-3 or 1-4 soon.

The Heat are the only success story. Some might point to the Celtics, but the trades for KG and RA depended upon a prior string of effective draft picks to use as capital.

Naptown_Seth
07-03-2012, 02:49 PM
You know what would be really bad? What if a HOF PG and HOF center agreed to play for 10 years together while adding 2-3 other all-stars to the team. You'd never overcome that said Magic-Jabbar-Worthy. Then Bird-Parrish-McHale called and said this new super-team movement was unprecedented BS that would ruin the league. "I agree" said the Twin Towers of Houston. Total crap said Mo-Dr J-Cheeks. It's only a matter of years before the Pacers and Kings fold said The Bad Boys.



Did NBA history just get erased or something? 2-3 mega-stars on the title contenders has always been the norm, even BEFORE AND DURING EXPANSION. Maybe it's the less organic feel of it, but ultimately this is how teams are made up. And really at some point how many of these guys are mega-stars if 8 teams all have 3 of them?

All the Nets are doing is replacing the Magic in the East, and it's possibly dismantling the Hawks along the way.



The Pacers have 3 all-stars on their team as well. The Cavs must hate how we bought our title run with the West signing and the Hill acquisition thanks to cap space. Freaking big market Pacers throwing money around. And now they've talked to Nash and Kaman, and might even keep Hibbert AND sign someone else? Sickening.

Slick Pinkham
07-03-2012, 03:21 PM
I missed the other times where 3 of the best players in the league were all obtained (or retained) by a single team in 1-2 seasons, all by unrestricted free agency (realizing that technically the Heat acquired Lebron by trade). This is new. and hard to pull off.

OlBlu
07-03-2012, 03:25 PM
No.

You guys are acting like Miami steamrolled through and just dominated us or any other team (especially in the east).

The heat are one way to build a team, a risky one actually, demonstrated by Bosh's injury that almost cost them a title. We can compete with them if we continue to improve and grow.

They did dominate the Pacers as soon as they adjusted to the loss of Bosh..... Nothing close after that. James almost beat the Pacers by himself.....:cool:

daschysta
07-03-2012, 04:17 PM
If ands and butts don't fly. The final game was competitive, they blew us out once, at their home, and Granger was out. We were winning when Bosh went out btw too. The Heat were better, but they certainly didn't "dominate us" for any more than one game, and if that counts as "domination" then we dominated them too by virtue of game 3. Game 1 could have gone either way, ditto to games 2 and 4, the final game was no blowout either.

As Wade declines and our team improves (despite what you say we do have more room for improvement than the heat, not to mention closing the experience gap) Miami will certainly not be some unstoppable juggernaut.

Or, let me guess you put the moment they "got over losing bosh" as game 5, and would have said the same thing about any moment the pacers faultered to the Heat.

You seem pretty trollish in just about every thread you post in, i'll have to keep an eye out, but if it becomes more apparent I may have my first member on ignore.

OlBlu
07-03-2012, 04:31 PM
If ands and butts don't fly. The final game was competitive, they blew us out once, at their home, and Granger was out. We were winning when Bosh went out btw too. The Heat were better, but they certainly didn't "dominate us" for any more than one game, and if that counts as "domination" then we dominated them too by virtue of game 3. Game 1 could have gone either way, ditto to games 2 and 4, the final game was no blowout either.

As Wade declines and our team improves (despite what you say we do have more room for improvement than the heat, not to mention closing the experience gap) Miami will certainly not be some unstoppable juggernaut.

Or, let me guess you put the moment they "got over losing bosh" as game 5, and would have said the same thing about any moment the pacers faultered to the Heat.

You seem pretty trollish in just about every thread you post in, i'll have to keep an eye out, but if it becomes more apparent I may have my first member on ignore.

Be my guest But the Pacers don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath with the Heat. If Howard had not been out, Orlando might have swept the Pacers and certainly would have beat them badly. We don't match up well with teams that have a superstar much less three of them. Wade is years from a major decline. James is the best player in the game with a will to win that not many can match, certainly not the Pacers. If those opinions and straight talk make me a troll, ignore me. I think the crap that you put out is trollish too so I am just decide to ignore you........:cool:

SycamoreKen
07-03-2012, 09:27 PM
Would some of you be complaining about competitive balance needing fixed if we had okc's roster? What of we get a couple stars and cant keep them because the league needed "fixed?"

Some of the negativity on here is truly amazing considering the season we just had.