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View Full Version : Why am I not supposed to like Chris Kaman?



Reginald
07-02-2012, 10:06 AM
Player A is a career 11.1-6.4-1.6 center

Player B is a career 11.9-8.3-1.4 center

Why is paying Player A the GNP of a small country a smarter decision than paying Player B much, MUCH less?

Kstat
07-02-2012, 10:07 AM
Can with stop with this player A and player B crap, like were pretending to be clever? Just say hibbert and kaman.

And hibbert is much younger, healthier and a far better defensive player than kaman will ever be. Kaman is roughly %70 of Hibbert. Slightly better in the post, and a lot worse at everything else.

Mac_Daddy
07-02-2012, 10:09 AM
You're not supposed to not like Kaman. Its just you're supposed to like Hibbert more. I actually wouldnt mind if we were able to get Kaman should we not match Roy.

Mac_Daddy
07-02-2012, 10:11 AM
Then again, I'd also like a general Roy Hibbert Free Agency thread, but that probably isn't going to happen.

Sandman21
07-02-2012, 10:11 AM
Older, can't stay healthy, no interest here. SHOW ROY THE MONEY!

Ramitt
07-02-2012, 10:13 AM
Good grief! It is ridiculous to use just those stats to determine the value of 2 players.

xBulletproof
07-02-2012, 10:15 AM
Probably because Kaman won't be cheaper. Asik got 8 mil a year with his 3 point and 5 rebound season. Kaman is a former All Star and if I recall correctly was sniffing 20-10 at points in his career when he got the minutes. Salaries being near equal, I would rather have Hibbert.

JB24
07-02-2012, 10:15 AM
Player A was a center that shot a pathetic 44% from the field with NO last season.

TOP
07-02-2012, 10:19 AM
Player A was a center that shot a pathetic 44% from the field with NO last season.

Why is 44% pathetic when you're on a bad team? It would make sense to shoot a lower percentage on a bad team. If you're on a good team, defenders have to worry about other people which should increase your shooting percentage. I guess I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

JB24
07-02-2012, 10:26 AM
I don't care how bad a team you're on, that's a bad % for a big man. He's barely at 48% for TS as well, which is just terrible.

If you've seen Kaman play recently, you'll know why any team signing him should be weary. A little physicality with him in the post and he's basically a jump-shooter by the end of the game.

trey
07-02-2012, 10:26 AM
I think it's pretty obvious that Hibbert is the guy we want. Reason being that he's still very young and his work ethic is pretty amazing. He still hasn't reached the age in which most players are in their prime. I really don't think hibbs will ever stop improving with how hard he works in the offseason... while Kaman is who he is and you know what you're getting for the rest of his career.

Pacerized
07-02-2012, 10:26 AM
This looks like a thread to let the Kaman trashing begin. He's not Howard but he is as good as Roy if he's healthy. Health, age, and potential to improve make Roy worth more money. If we can't land Nash, I really hope we land Kaman and keep Roy. Don't forget that player B has also spent a lot of time playing at the 4.
A front court of Hibbert, West, and Kaman playing a 4/5 role would give us a lot of advantages.

CableKC
07-02-2012, 10:28 AM
Why is 44% pathetic when you're on a bad team? It would make sense to shoot a lower percentage on a bad team. If you're on a good team, defenders have to worry about other people which should increase your shooting percentage. I guess I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.
44% for a Center is real bad.

Kstat
07-02-2012, 10:28 AM
Kaman is not as good as Roy when healthy. This isn't even a logical debate. Basketball is played at two ends of the floor. Kaman plays one and slacks off on the other. I'm sorry, there's no stat to quantify that, but anyone with two eyes can see it.

Ramitt
07-02-2012, 10:31 AM
Hibbert is not as good as Roy when healthy.

That typo made me LOL,

Kstat
07-02-2012, 10:33 AM
I could have been referring to Brandon Roy.....

Gamble1
07-02-2012, 10:33 AM
44% for a Center is real bad.
IF that was his career average I would agree but Hibbert and Kaman pretty much have the same number for TS%. Also consider Hibbert on a new team with no training camp and forced in and out of the lineup with trade speculations.

IF JOB trashed his confidence then I fully expect if the roles were reversed that HIbbert TS% would also plummet.

Sandman21
07-02-2012, 10:36 AM
Steve Kyler ‏@stevekylerNBA

RT @coreywallace_: ---> if Omer Asik just got a $25 million offer, Kaman will command even more.
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1m Steve Kyler Steve Kyler ‏@stevekylerNBA

RT @coreywallace_: What so you think is a better option for the Pacers. Cheap Chris Kaman or an overpaid Hibbert? ---> Both will be pricey.
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10:38 AM - 2 Jul 12 via TweetDeck Details

JB24
07-02-2012, 10:39 AM
Yuck. Asik can at least defend the paint at an elite level. Anybody willing to pay Kaman more than an average of 8 or 9/yr doesn't deserve an NBA gig.

Ramitt
07-02-2012, 10:47 AM
I could have been referring to Brandon Roy.....

good recovery.

PR07
07-02-2012, 10:49 AM
Well if Kaman is going to be pricey too, we might as well sign Roy.

Speed
07-02-2012, 10:53 AM
I guess if its 10 for Kaman, you can probably only do two years. I really am starting to just say okay sign Roy, ya its an inflated price, but it just is what it is...

Side note, heres a unlinked obscure reference. I know about a year or two ago I saw something that said Kaman is just horribly inefficient and his numbers are misleading. Basically saying his number production was tied to volume, not effectiveness. Not a guy who really improves the whole. I have no link and I didn't see this in the small sampling against the Pacers, so who knows.

Reginald
07-02-2012, 10:59 AM
Can with stop with this player A and player B crap, like were pretending to be clever? Just say hibbert and kaman.

Well, I did it as rhetorical bait and switch to see if anyone wrongly assumed the guy with the inferior stats was Kaman. And somebody did just that.

For the record, I'm fine with paying Roy. It's going to cost us, and Roy pushing for a max deal is his way of saying I'm fine if the Pacers don't have the long-term solvency to win me a title, but I'm fine with it.

vapacersfan
07-02-2012, 11:09 AM
No disrespect, but I have seen this player A player B crap in several threads.

It is petty, and quite silly. Just say the two players names.

EDIT: Kstat beat me to it, my bad

As Ramitt said, it is crazy how some arguments are only based on stats. There is a reason why teams and agents negotiate after watching games, and dont just read the box score after every game.

lies, damn lies, and statistics

JB24
07-02-2012, 11:14 AM
For the record, I'm fine with paying Roy. It's going to cost us, and Roy pushing for a max deal is his way of saying I'm fine if the Pacers don't have the long-term solvency to win me a title, but I'm fine with it.

lol ok. I think it's hilarious how some fans think this. Roy should have foregone millions to maintain the "Pacers' long-term solvency to win him a title" which is, mind you, nowhere near guaranteed. And how many players have ever done this before?

Reginald
07-02-2012, 11:23 AM
No disrespect, but I have seen this player A player B crap in several threads.

It is petty, and quite silly. Just say the two players names.

I'm sure you have seen it. And those posters had their reasons for using it, and I had mine. My reason was well-considered and intentional, and it had the desired effect; i.e. a poster simply assuming Hibbert has had the better career.

Sandman21
07-02-2012, 12:07 PM
Corey Wallace ‏@coreywallace_

@HPbasketball Considering the price tag, who is the better option for the Pacers, Roy Hibbert or Chris Kaman?
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11:45 AM - 2 Jul 12 via web Details
23m Hardwood Paroxysm Hardwood Paroxysm ‏@HPbasketball

@coreywallace_ Roy Hibbert a hundred times over
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MyFavMartin
07-02-2012, 12:15 PM
As hard as Roy works, he's going to get better. Match.

Roy and PG. Our future.

HickeyS2000
07-02-2012, 12:45 PM
No disrespect, but I have seen this player A player B crap in several threads.

It is petty, and quite silly. Just say the two players names.

EDIT: Kstat beat me to it, my bad

As Ramitt said, it is crazy how some arguments are only based on stats. There is a reason why teams and agents negotiate after watching games, and dont just read the box score after every game.

lies, damn lies, and statistics

I'll defend the Player A vs Player B method. If you do not realize who the players are (everyone already did because we have seen it 10x), it tends to take the emotional bias out of it. We all know how emotionally tied a lot of posters are to Roy, myself included. This was probably not the best time to use it, but it was a little disturbing the first time I saw it. Centers certainly have inflated salaries, but a max contract for a 13, 9 and 2 player is hard to swallow for me. Considering what these other scrubs are getting offered, we have to match. Kaman is a no for me. Hibbert is a yes.

vapacersfan
07-02-2012, 12:57 PM
Hicksey, I agree. It can be effective. To me it a cheap ploy, however, because it relies on baiting another poster.

However, I think it is just as effective (if not more) to lay out your argument, then say "While you may be attached to Roy Hibbert because all he has done, look at these numbers. Can you tell me you would be this attached if his name was not Hibbert or if you never knew who this player was"

Regardless, it is even lamer the 10th times you see it.

__________________________

Back on topic, I 100% agree with you. I am torn on Hibbert (I think he will improve, but he has a lot of work left to do) but I remember how mad I was when we lost Brad Miller. I was vocal about wanting Miller, and I agreed with a lot of posters who thought he was a huge key for us (Hicks and Jay come to mind, though I may be wrong about Jay).

Others were proven correct over time (most Bulletproof) that he would not hold up and it could be a bad investment. Botton line is the same now as it was back then. Big men are hard to come by, and they are often what we would call "overpaid" (that really is a funny phrase when tallking about millionares and billionares isnt it?)

Regardless, as has been pointed out numerous times this is all posturing, and when it is all said and done I expect Roy will be a Pacer. If he moves on it will suck, but nothing would suck more for me then seeing the Pacers letting him go then seeing him turn into an amazing All star type player...and or winning a NBA Title ala Ron Artest.

PR07
07-02-2012, 01:05 PM
Unless Kaman signs at a bargain contract, to me it's a no brainer. Roy is younger, more durable, and has his best years still ahead of him. You can't say any of those for Kaman. Not to mention, Roy is probably one of the most popular Pacers right now within the fan base.

aaronb
07-02-2012, 01:08 PM
44% for a Center is real bad.

Did you feel it was bad when Roy shot 46% before last year?

Hicks
07-02-2012, 04:12 PM
I'll defend the Player A vs Player B method. If you do not realize who the players are (everyone already did because we have seen it 10x), it tends to take the emotional bias out of it. We all know how emotionally tied a lot of posters are to Roy, myself included. This was probably not the best time to use it, but it was a little disturbing the first time I saw it. Centers certainly have inflated salaries, but a max contract for a 13, 9 and 2 player is hard to swallow for me. Considering what these other scrubs are getting offered, we have to match. Kaman is a no for me. Hibbert is a yes.

Sure, it takes the emotion out of it, but it also takes ALL OTHER CONTEXT and all other information out of it at the same time. I'm not a big fan of it; too reductionist.