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Lance George
07-01-2012, 03:50 AM
I got this news from here: RealGM Portland offers max to Hibbert? Sam Amick (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1191422)

Amick has his Tweets protected, so I don't know if it's legitimate or not. I'd imagine it is.

Sam Amick (sam_amick) on Twitter (https://twitter.com/sam_amick/)


sam_amick
Source: Portland GM Neil Olshey & team prez Larry Miller visited restricted free agent center Roy Hibbert tonight in DC, offered max deal

sam_amick
Indiana did not offer a max deal, and Hibbert is now leaning to Blazers unless Pacers match. One other unnamed team offered max.

Pacerfan
07-01-2012, 03:51 AM
Apparently Blazers and one other unnamed team offered Roy the max and he's leaning towards Portland unless Pacers offer him max. They went to DC to see him. Looks like Roy won't give us the hometown discount. I'm on my phone so I can't post the whole link but Sam Amick's twitter is @sam_amick

daschysta
07-01-2012, 03:51 AM
We have to max, there is no choice if he signs the offer sheet, we simply cannot afford to lose him.

PaceBalls
07-01-2012, 04:00 AM
We all knew this day was coming about half way through this season. This has been such a debate and really, I've never seen someone's perceived fair salary fluctuate so much. There were times last year I didn't think he deserved over 6mpy. Then this year there were times I thought 10mpy would be too much. Now he gets the max...

What will the Pacers do? I don't think he is a max player, but who else could they possibly get to replace him? I don't think they could. The salary cap ramifications are huge for the club. Signing Hibbert to a max deal and signing G. Hill will make things tight again for years. Then there is PG. How good will be? Will he command a huge pay day as well?

This is an important crossroads for the team.

PaceBalls
07-01-2012, 04:03 AM
Oh and, http://twitter.com/#!/sam_amick
Sam Amick ‏<s style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(187, 187, 187); ">@</s>sam_amick (http://twitter.com/#!/sam_amick)
Indiana did not offer a max deal, and Hibbert is now leaning to Blazers unless Pacers match. One other unnamed team offered max.

rexnom
07-01-2012, 04:03 AM
It's not really a crossroads. We match.

PaceBalls
07-01-2012, 04:04 AM
It's not really a crossroads. We match.
You don't know that, I think it's 50/50. And even if they do match it still creates a salary problem in the future. Hence a crossroads. Just because you want them to match doesn't mean they are going to.

daschysta
07-01-2012, 04:05 AM
We are going to match, a crossroads implies two real possibilities, not resigning Roy isn't an option. We'll match if he decides to sign an offer sheet.

PaceBalls
07-01-2012, 04:07 AM
I'm sorry I didn't know you guys were Kevin Pritchard and Donnie Walsh incognito on this forum. It is a possibility that they don't match.

focused444
07-01-2012, 04:07 AM
what would the approximate numbers be on a max deal for hibbert??

daschysta
07-01-2012, 04:09 AM
Incredibly remote. It's Donnie Walsh back for petes sakes, he's a fan favorite, was largely expected to receive the max deal for quite some time, resigning our own free agents is well known to be the brass's top priority, and it isn't really that outrageous a max anyhow.

I guarantee you they match, Walsh and Pritchard's first move in charge isn't going to be letting Roy Hibbert walk. It's by no means 50/50 unless you just mean there are two choices instead of how likely each one is.

avoidingtheclowns
07-01-2012, 04:12 AM
what would the approximate numbers be on a max deal for hibbert??

Around 4 years / $55 million if he signs offer sheet from Portland (or someone else not the Pacers).

Hypnotiq
07-01-2012, 04:13 AM
You guys are making is sound like its an easy decision i dont think it is. im extremely hesitant to match i just dont think he is a max guy far to inconsistent

PaceBalls
07-01-2012, 04:13 AM
Yea the 50/50 thing is me just guessing. Anyway, enough banter with semantics. The crossroads I implied for the franchise is about the future and what a max deal for Hibbert and likely large contract for G Hill does for any other moves we make down the line for other free agents and Paul George etc..

Heisenberg
07-01-2012, 04:14 AM
In my opinion this is a GOOD thing. I've been under the assumption Roy would get a max, and we'd match it. The good part is matching an offer sheet from another team keeps his annual raise to 4.5% instead of the 7.5% it would've been had we outright negotiated an extension

15th parallel
07-01-2012, 04:14 AM
This is not surprising as it has been predicted that Roy will certainly get max one way or another. What will be the backup plan if the Pacers will not match?

Frostwolf
07-01-2012, 04:14 AM
Around 4 years / $55 million if he signs offer sheet from Portland (or someone else not the Pacers).

what is that, 12M in his first year? that's not too bad at all.

yoadknux
07-01-2012, 04:15 AM
Time to S&T him.

daschysta
07-01-2012, 04:17 AM
Not signing him would ruin everything the Pacers built up last year. We're not even close to as good of a team without him. Sure would be pleasant deciding not to resign Roy, Williams saying no, Nash saying no, EG being matched, the Pacers start to Panic, and end up overpaying some schmoe jsut because we weren't willing to overpay by maybe 2 million dollars a year for our All-Star Center, if it's a crossroads then the choice is obvious, letting him go would be a disaster, we wouldn't be better than 4th or 5th in the East, and that's with Chicago out of the picture.

Pacerfan
07-01-2012, 04:17 AM
This is what I'm guessing happened. Pacers offered a little less per year but gave an extra year, thus still totaling more than the other teams. Roy wants to stay here but pinch every penny he can out of the Pacers. He wants the Pacers to offer their max. The Pacers will probably just have to wait and see if Roy will sign an offer sheet leaving behind the extra year and money. Injuries happen so he will be taking a risk. If he signs an offer sheet, we match but he won't get the extra year.

CJ Jones
07-01-2012, 04:18 AM
We have to max, there is no choice if he signs the offer sheet, we simply cannot afford to lose him.

I don't think Roy's a max player on the basketball court. If he played more minutes maybe, but paying the max for a 30 minute player doesn't seem too smart. AND we still don't have anyone that can get him the ball. I don't know...

I think I'd still match because of how much time and work we have invested in him (+area 55), but I wouldn't feel good about it.

PaceBalls
07-01-2012, 04:19 AM
It's 14MPY minus 1M over the contract. They can structure it differently to back load it, but it equals out to be that.

Hypnotiq
07-01-2012, 04:20 AM
This is not surprising as it has been predicted that Roy will certainly get max one way or another. What will be the backup plan if the Pacers will not match?

Chris Kaman

daschysta
07-01-2012, 04:20 AM
I don't think Roy's a max player on the basketball court. If he played more minutes maybe, but paying the max for a 30 minute player doesn't seem too smart. AND we still don't have anyone that can get him the ball. I don't know...

I think I'd still match because of how much time and work we have invested in him (+area 55), but I wouldn't feel good about it.

Roy's max isn't all that much it averages about 14 million a year, starting at just around 12 million. Most would agree he's worth between 10-12 million, losing him over a slight overpay would be a disaster, the Pacers are barely a HCA team in the east without him. It would ruin all the positive momentum of the last season, we aren't signing a better FA than Roy in all likelyhood, we HAVE to match.

yoadknux
07-01-2012, 04:24 AM
Roy's max isn't all that much it averages about 14 million a year, starting at just around 12 million. Most would agree he's worth between 10-12 million, losing him over a slight overpay would be a disaster, the Pacers are barely a HCA team in the east without him. It would ruin all the positive momentum of the last season, we aren't signing a better FA than Roy in all likelyhood, we HAVE to match.
Really dude does this make sense to you? 14 million a year to 12 ppg 9 rpg? Granger was a rising star back when he signed the extension and he took a WHOLE LOT LESS money. Granger's max salary will be Hibbert's starting salary.
If all he cares for is money. I hope we S&T him to the bobcats or something.

Heisenberg
07-01-2012, 04:42 AM
Chris Kaman

Chris Kaman's an empty stat sheet. Watch the dude play, he offers no actual impact.

Pingu
07-01-2012, 04:46 AM
If Roy's max indeed is 55/4, then the Pacers should match. Yes, that's a bit more than would be good for the franchise's finances, but Roy is best thing to happen to the Pacers in the last 10 years.

presto123
07-01-2012, 05:03 AM
Is it ALL about the money for Roy? He won't give us a slight discount so we can chase a title? I guess now days all players egos are tied to a dollar amount. Loyalty is a thing of the past.

Heisenberg
07-01-2012, 05:10 AM
Is it ALL about the money for Roy? He won't give us a slight discount so we can chase a title? I guess now days all players egos are tied to a dollar amount. Loyalty is a thing of the past.
Give me a break. This is laughably naive and selfish. In no other area of life do we expect a person to do the exact same job for less pay.

PGisthefuture
07-01-2012, 05:10 AM
Really dude does this make sense to you? 14 million a year to 12 ppg 9 rpg? Granger was a rising star back when he signed the extension and he took a WHOLE LOT LESS money. Granger's max salary will be Hibbert's starting salary.
If all he cares for is money. I hope we S&T him to the bobcats or something.

Yeah I mean, there is no question Roy still has a lot to prove and will keep improving.

It is unfortunate, but the lack of big men in the league will probably force us to sign him to the max if we want to keep him. I don't think he would be worth the max otherwise, but he is a legit center and taller than 7 foot as well as a big part of the community. It's either we pay him the max or Miles Plumlee is our starting center on opening day. :-p

presto123
07-01-2012, 05:13 AM
Give me a break. This is laughably naive and selfish. In no other area of life do we expect a person to do the exact same job for less pay.


Excuse me? Peyton Manning took less money to add to the roster. Or at least he renegotiated over more years. There have been guys do this.

wintermute
07-01-2012, 05:16 AM
Of course we match. That's a no-brainer.

It's what we do afterwards that's open to question, i.e. keep him or trade him. And I don't necessarily mean S&T, we can still trade him down the road as Denver did with Nene.

For my money, I'd rather keep Hibbert even at $14m per year. But it's not my money :D And of course, maybe we get a trade offer that blows our socks away. It can happen.

Heisenberg
07-01-2012, 05:18 AM
Excuse me? Peyton Manning took less money to add to the roster. Or at least he renegotiated over more years. There have been guys do this.Really? You're comparing a guy coming off a 17th pick rookie deal to a pre-lockout #1 NFL pick?

PGisthefuture
07-01-2012, 05:19 AM
Give me a break. This is laughably naive and selfish. In no other area of life do we expect a person to do the exact same job for less pay.

That's what I'm saying. Also, it is Roy's agent doing most of the negotiating and trying to get Roy the best deal money-wise and everything else.

Hypnotiq
07-01-2012, 05:19 AM
Interesting that Batum is getting a huge offer of 45-50 mil from the twolves if Batum accepts this will they still have enough to give a max deal to Roy?

wintermute
07-01-2012, 05:21 AM
Really dude does this make sense to you? 14 million a year to 12 ppg 9 rpg? Granger was a rising star back when he signed the extension and he took a WHOLE LOT LESS money. Granger's max salary will be Hibbert's starting salary.
If all he cares for is money. I hope we S&T him to the bobcats or something.

Marc Gasol put up 13 and 7 the season before he signed a 4 year $58m contract.

Granger got less money because he's not a 7 foot center. Just supply and demand.

And I guess this thread should be merged with the other one?

PGisthefuture
07-01-2012, 05:22 AM
The way I see it is if Roy truly wants to be here next year he will be. If not then we will probably do a sign and trade. If it is all about money for Roy then the best of luck to him on another team. I'm sure we have plenty of backup plans if this happens.

presto123
07-01-2012, 05:22 AM
Really? You're comparing a guy coming off a 17th pick rookie deal to a pre-lockout #1 NFL pick?


They are all multi millionaires. I'm just saying a couple million less a year to stay in a city you love and a good situation. I think the Pacers match but it still doesn't change my opinion that almost all players egos today are tied to a dollar amount.

Heisenberg
07-01-2012, 05:26 AM
They are all multi millionaires. I'm just saying a couple million less a year to stay in a city you love and a good situation. I think the Pacers match but it still doesn't change my opinion that almost all players egos today are tied to a dollar amount.

How many millions of dollars should Roy Hibbert turn down to make you happy instead of doing all he can to set up the Hibbert family line for generations to come?

It's not ego. It's freaking common sense. I'll offer you 75% of your current pay to stay where you are, or can get a 25% bump to go somewhere else. What do you say?

able
07-01-2012, 05:30 AM
Roy's starting salary would be $12,922,194 per current cap/cba

I am amazed after stating this would happen so many months ago, that this is even a discussion, by not offering him f.i. a 10 mio p/a extension you took this risk deliberately any possible discount would have been at that stage, now there is no such thing, why would he?
They offer same or not, it will show the grande plan, if they don't Walsh will get blamed of course, but askyourself a simple question, what other center is there available that has his impact but cost considerably less (saving hs to be at least 5 mio p/a in that case imo)

None indeed, or we can of course try and trade for Nene at 15+ mio per year, who played how many games last season ?

Kaman ? only if he came for 6 mio per annum at most and than preferably as backup

TMJ31
07-01-2012, 05:31 AM
How many millions of dollars should Roy Hibbert turn down to make you happy instead of doing all he can to set up the Hibbert family line for generations to come?

It's very easy for us to all say "Well they are multi-millionaires... They should just leave a few million on the table for the good of the team"

Well, sure we have a tough time 'relating' to that as normal folks with normal jobs... But the fact is, like Heisenberg said, these guys are trying to set up their kids and families for generations to come (if they are smart about their money).

After Uncle Sam takes their huge cut, agents take their cut, managers and/or publicists take their cut... The pay they make is still a LOT, but not NEARLY what we all assume it is.

Are pro athletes overpaid in general? Yes, absolutely. But if we for one second put that out of our minds and just look at it from a business deal perspective, and factor in ALL of the % points of that money athletes lose off the top due to agency fees and taxes... I can't blame them for seeking out the best deal.

The fan in me wishes it wasn't this way, but alas... I can't begrudge them the right to earn the best living possible.

presto123
07-01-2012, 05:33 AM
How many millions of dollars should Roy Hibbert turn down to make you happy instead of doing all he can to set up the Hibbert family line for generations to come?

It's not ego. It's freaking common sense. I'll offer you 75% of your current pay to stay where you are, or can get a 25% bump to go somewhere else. What do you say?

Depends on how well I like my current situation. I don't care what anybody says when you are making that much for most players it all boils down to ego. I have to make more than the next guy. We'll just agree to disagree on this one.

5_7_Clash
07-01-2012, 05:33 AM
C'mon guys. You don't think the FO knew a long time ago that Roy would get a max offer from at least one team? You don't think that they have been preparing for this eventuality? It seems fairly obvious that they have and they certainly haven't been shy about making their intentions known. I understand that anything can happen but there is nothing that I've seen that says we will let Hibbert walk away.

able
07-01-2012, 05:37 AM
C'mon guys. You don't think the FO knew a long time ago that Roy would get a max offer from at least one team? You don't think that they have been preparing for this eventuality? It seems fairly obvious that they have and they certainly haven't been shy about making their intentions known. I understand that anything can happen but there is nothing that I've seen that says we will let Hibbert walk away.

Uhh how about not offering him the max yourself for starters? to me that is a sign and indeed a very bad one, because as you rightly say, they could've/should've known for months this was the scenario unfolding.
Even when they "MATCH" it always leaves a taste in the air that is sour.

CableKC
07-01-2012, 05:46 AM
I'm guessing that the 2nd Team is Houston....they have the Capspace and the need.

But I can see them praying that the Magic come to their senses and look to the Rockets to trade Dwight.

5_7_Clash
07-01-2012, 05:48 AM
Uhh how about not offering him the max yourself for starters? to me that is a sign and indeed a very bad one, because as you rightly say, they could've/should've known for months this was the scenario unfolding.
Even when they "MATCH" it always leaves a taste in the air that is sour.

You make a good point but I also think that a qualifying offer is the first part of a negotiation. Part of me wishes we would have offered the max right off the bat but with the option to match, why not throw a lower number out there? Plus, we don't know what the qualifying offer was. It may not have been very far off a max deal.
As someone mentioned earlier, this is a players league. They have all the leverage. I think it's fair for the organization to stay flexible. Risky yes but not unheard of.

Heisenberg
07-01-2012, 05:50 AM
If we'd have given Roy anything near a max extension at the deadline I wouldn't be able to keep from bumping all the threads bemoaning how stupid it was.

CableKC
07-01-2012, 05:53 AM
Can someone put up a poll on this thread asking if we should match or not?

If not....then I'm on record saying that we match.

Heisenberg
07-01-2012, 05:54 AM
So the stuff that matters. Roy's first year max salary is just a shade under 13? $12.9? This is correct? So counting Hill's cap hold that gives us...a shade over $11 million to spend?

wintermute
07-01-2012, 06:01 AM
So the stuff that matters. Roy's first year max salary is just a shade under 13? $12.9? This is correct? So counting Hill's cap hold that gives us...a shade over $11 million to spend?

I thought nothing becomes official until July 11 (end of moratorium) anyway? So we can continue using the cap hold to calculate until then I think.

Btw, Omer Asik (averaged 3.1 pts 5.3 reb last season) is supposedly getting a $8m per year offer from Houston.

CJ Jones
07-01-2012, 06:21 AM
The way I see it is if Roy truly wants to be here next year he will be. If not then we will probably do a sign and trade. If it is all about money for Roy then the best of luck to him on another team. I'm sure we have plenty of backup plans if this happens.


s&t Hibbert/DC for Gordon/1st? It would set us back temporarily, but I don't see the point in paying Hibbert the max when he only plays 30 mpg and we don't have any guards or wings who can or will (Danny) get him the ball on a consistent basis.

This could be a chance for Gordon to put his money where his mouth is. If he's really telling people he would sign here for less, this would be his opportunity. I'm sure NO would listen to a deal centered around Roy. They'd have a ridiculous front line.

I'd really hate to lose Roy but I don't think he's worth the max

CJ Jones
07-01-2012, 06:24 AM
I thought nothing becomes official until July 11 (end of moratorium) anyway? So we can continue using the cap hold to calculate until then I think.

Btw, Omer Asik (averaged 3.1 pts 5.3 reb last season) is supposedly getting a $8m per year offer from Houston.



:laugh:

Heisenberg
07-01-2012, 06:27 AM
This is an entirely different topic of conversation really. But it really doesn't have much to do with Roy being "worth" the max. It has to do with the concept of a max contract in general.

Roy's going to be on the same contract as Westbrook and Durant right? Well, if Roy'd made some All-NBA teams and whatever those stipulations are. That's not Roy's fault. He's absolutely as important to us as Durant is to OKC. He just isn't as good, and in turn our team isn't. Which is why the entire concept of a "max contract" is stupid. If a player's THAT good, he should be able to make 99% of the salary cap. Putting a cap on individual salaries just further limits markets, not just small markets, just markets in general. It deflates the actual value of incredibly great, REAL game changing players.

Soft salary cap, fine. Max contract, stupid. Want real parity? There you go.

pathil275
07-01-2012, 07:24 AM
If you don't match the offer sheet for Roy, you won't need to make the trip to Steve Nash to sell him the idea of playing for a contending team.

IndyPacer
07-01-2012, 07:26 AM
I would estimate Hibbert is probably worth $11 million to $12 million per year. $12.9 million to start and ~$14 million on average certainly isn't the most outrageous deal we've seen in the league. I suppose that one could also argue that having a player who is inclined to take the initiative to stay involved with the local fan base as Roy does is also valuable for the Pacers organization, especially considering how fan support in recent years has dwindled. One could rationalize that it's only a couple million more per year difference from a fair market deal and what his agent may be asking for. But the idea that the Pacers have invested in developing him and have been patient with him when he struggled in the past only to see a "Show me the money!" max deal situation at the end of his rookie contract is not something terribly I'm pleased about. I hate these types of situations.

BringJackBack
07-01-2012, 07:32 AM
If we lose Roy, we don't have to worry about contending for a long time. We've watched this guy grow, and the team grow from this guy and we can't let him go because he will make 10 more million than he should.

Shade
07-01-2012, 07:33 AM
This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. We all knew Roy was going to get a max offer from someone. Just match it and move on.

Shade
07-01-2012, 07:34 AM
Btw, this is why I hate Mel's insistence on not going after RFAs. Nobody else is going to extend you that same courtesy, so you're just leaving yourself at an unnecessary disadvantage. And it's not like we're not already at a major disadvantage being in a small, cold market.

Shade
07-01-2012, 07:36 AM
Oh, and it's also nice to see that the new CBA that came from the lockout managed to curb all that extraneous spending. Well worth the wait.

Steagles
07-01-2012, 07:36 AM
Why cant we have an ******* run the team rather than a "courteous" Simon?


Sent from #PacerNation using Tapatalk

Kstat
07-01-2012, 07:38 AM
Oh, and it's also nice to see that the new CBA that came from the lockout managed to curb all that extraneous spending. Well worth the wait.

It will. Just don't ever expect valuable big men to be passed over.

Nobody likes it when teams are trying to take "their" guy from them. But honestly, Roy is worth a max offer, if it's indeed only $13.75 million a year over 4 years.

I didn't see you having any sympathy for New Orleans or Phoenix. Everyone here seems to be on board with paying Eric Gordon WAY more than his career achievements would suggest, and you're disgusted that someone would offer the same big money to your 7'2" all star center? Let's not be hypocritical. This is how free agency works. Pay the man.

Doddage
07-01-2012, 07:43 AM
S&T Hibbert for Meyers Leonard, Wesley Matthews, and 2 1sts?

:zip:

Ace E.Anderson
07-01-2012, 07:44 AM
I think the only thing in question now is whether or not this move costs us G.Hill. We're not going to let Roy walk, and we are obviously going after bigger fish in FA

BringJackBack
07-01-2012, 07:46 AM
S&T Hibbert for Meyers Leonard, Wesley Matthews, and 2 1sts?

:zip:

Might have been a good offer if we were still a bad team, but we are trying to win 60 games a season over the next 5 or so. Give me my All Star center.

OakMoses
07-01-2012, 07:47 AM
The Portland offer is really a worst case scenario: a good, young team offering the max.

I'm really hoping the other team is Phoenix. If that were the case, we could just S&T Roy for Gortat and move on with our lives.

As it is, we'll probably have to match and live with the knowledge we're overpaying for the next 4 years and the various repercussions. We're lucky that new CBA max contracts aren't as bad as old CBA maxes. otherwise we'd have JO 2.0.

Kstat
07-01-2012, 07:48 AM
Portland actually would very well be going after both Hibbert and Nash, just like the Pacers.

Throw in Aldridge, and that team gets a lot better fast.

Doddage
07-01-2012, 07:53 AM
Might have been a good offer if we were still a bad team, but we are trying to win 60 games a season over the next 5 or so. Give me my All Star center.
Believe me, I want Roy back too. I pushed for us to take him in the 08 Draft and I was happy when we did. But I'm not a huge fan of giving him the max regardless of how valuable he is to us. I expect us to match though.

Really?
07-01-2012, 07:55 AM
Btw, this is why I hate Mel's insistence on not going after RFAs. Nobody else is going to extend you that same courtesy, so you're just leaving yourself at an unnecessary disadvantage. And it's not like we're not already at a major disadvantage being in a small, cold market.

We have a meeting set up with Gordon coming up on Tuesday I believe, tides may be changing...

Really?
07-01-2012, 08:01 AM
Just my take, Roy has never really had a consistent year, always highs and lows, this one was by far his best and I am not quite sure that he is all the way out of that slump phase. With that being said we have a really tough call ahead for us, do we max and hope that he turns into a consistent NBA center throughout the seasons, or do we do a sign and trade and start to go back to be one of those "kinda" rebuilding phases that we had been in forever.

Honestly I could see us going close to max and if he is not trying to come back giving us some sort of discount we will do a sign and trade, I am just glad there are two teams that offered a max, this way if we do need to do a sign and trade we have more leverage than if it were just 1 team.

ErikD.
07-01-2012, 08:04 AM
Pay it. Hibbert's the man. He's improved every year, no reason to think he won't be even better this upcoming season. It's not like it's $21m over & 7 years.

Shade
07-01-2012, 08:04 AM
It will. Just don't ever expect valuable big men to be passed over.

Nobody likes it when teams are trying to take "their" guy from them. But honestly, Roy is worth a max offer, if it's indeed only $13.75 million a year over 4 years.

Maybe you missed where I said:


This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. We all knew Roy was going to get a max offer from someone. Just match it and move on.


I didn't see you having any sympathy for New Orleans or Phoenix. Everyone here seems to be on board with paying Eric Gordon WAY more than his career achievements would suggest, and you're disgusted that someone would offer the same big money to your 7'2" all star center? Let's not be hypocritical. This is how free agency works. Pay the man.

Really? At best it's 50/50 on here on whether EJ should get the max or not.

Speed
07-01-2012, 08:06 AM
Let me get this right other teams can offer 4 years, Pacers 5, so if the Pacers match the Portland offer is (using fake numbers) total of 58 million over 4 years. However if he take the pacers offer it would be for 5 years and more total money (using fake numbers) 5 years 68 million. I mean, Pacers match, pay more money per anum, but less overall. Roy should seriously thin about taking the 5 year larger total dollar amount for that extra year of security.

I mean I'm all for guys getting what the market bears, this isn't the end of the world.

What are other options at Center, if they don't? Spencer Hawes? Well, I'd like Spencer instead if it meant throwing a max concract at DWill.

Here's the thing, its not just Roy for the Max in a bubble, you have to think of all the other moves you could make or not make because of it.

Really?
07-01-2012, 08:07 AM
Best case Scenario from a S&T, which would never happen but, DC and Roy for Leonard, Lillard, and future 1st.

Would rather keep Roy, but I would not have as much of a problem with this because although we are contending right now, we are still not in a position to win it ALL, atleast that is my though, and we need to get better.

Ace E.Anderson
07-01-2012, 08:09 AM
Just my take, Roy has never really had a consistent year, always highs and lows, this one was by far his best and I am not quite sure that he is all the way out of that slump phase. With that being said we have a really tough call ahead for us, do we max and hope that he turns into a consistent NBA center throughout the seasons, or do we do a sign and trade and start to go back to be one of those "kinda" rebuilding phases that we had been in forever.

Honestly I could see us going close to max and if he is not trying to come back giving us some sort of discount we will do a sign and trade, I am just glad there are two teams that offered a max, this way if we do need to do a sign and trade we have more leverage than if it were just 1 team.

The thing is, with the new CBA it's not in anyone's best interest to do a sign and trade, except the Pacers. Roy can't sign for more money with the Pacers and then be traded. He either takes what POR gives him, or what the Pacers give him.

Speed
07-01-2012, 08:10 AM
When does the 3 days to match start?

Shade
07-01-2012, 08:10 AM
Let me get this right other teams can offer 4 years, Pacers 5, so if the Pacers match the Portland offer is (using fake numbers) total of 58 million over 4 years. However if he take the pacers offer it would be for 5 years and more total money (using fake numbers) 5 years 68 million. I mean, Pacers match, pay more money per anum, but less overall. Roy should seriously thin about taking the 5 year larger total dollar amount for that extra year of security.

I mean I'm all for guys getting what the market bears, this isn't the end of the world.

What are other options at Center, if they don't? Spencer Hawes? Well, I'd like Spencer instead if it meant throwing a max concract at DWill.

Here's the thing, its not just Roy for the Max in a bubble, you have to think of all the other moves you could make or not make because of it.

Without Roy, most of the other moves would be pointless. We would no longer be in contention.

Really?
07-01-2012, 08:15 AM
The thing is, with the new CBA it's not in anyone's best interest to do a sign and trade, except the Pacers. Roy can't sign for more money with the Pacers and then be traded. He either takes what POR gives him, or what the Pacers give him.

Really did not know that, so basically we can not trade Roy if we sign him? even after free agency is over?

Really?
07-01-2012, 08:16 AM
When does the 3 days to match start?

Once Roy signs the offer sheet...

Speed
07-01-2012, 08:18 AM
Once Roy signs the offer sheet...

Which they can't until when? Aren't we in an in between period?

xBulletproof
07-01-2012, 08:21 AM
July 11th is when the signing starts I believe. Until then it's all handshake agreements.

Steagles
07-01-2012, 08:22 AM
Once Roy signs the offer sheet...

I dont think you answered his question. Three days to match starts when he signs the offer sheet but he can't sign until the 11th.


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Nuntius
07-01-2012, 08:29 AM
I really hope that we match Roy. If we don't, I'll be disappointed.

dohman
07-01-2012, 08:39 AM
There is a reason why Roy is being offered the max. It is his defense, plain and simple. Quit throwing out offensive stats, we all know he hit 3 hook shots and a few put backs a game.

If we lose Hilbert our defense is what is going to struggle the most. Roy is the commander and chief on that end of the court and his mentality of no one is going to score on my rim is why he is getting his max offer. If we lose that we are no longer smash mouth. We can hope to find a Samuel Dalambart type player and move back down to 8-10th in the east.

You bite your inner lip, you sign the deal and you watch as the fans start to fill the seats and you make money. When PGs deal comes up you simply go into the luxury tax because by that point we are meaningful int he NBA again.

Anyone remember the centers we had before Hibbert? Maybe we can go offer Harrison another deal. THEY DO NOT GROW ON TREES!

Larry Staverman
07-01-2012, 08:41 AM
As I said in an earlier thread the Pacers are screwed either way if Roy gets a max offer.

I say match the offer sheet and trade him to Orlando for Howard. Brooklyn won't be an option next year when he becomes a free agent and after competing for a title here he resigns.

OakMoses
07-01-2012, 08:42 AM
Anyone remember the centers we had before Hibbert? Maybe we can go offer Harrison another deal. THEY DO NOT GROW ON TREES!

We also had Rik Smits, Brad Miller, and Jeff Foster - all of whom were very good.

Roaming Gnome
07-01-2012, 08:48 AM
We also had Rik Smits, Brad Miller, and <S>Jeff Foster</S> - all of whom were very good.
...and all of whom got well paid.

Larry Staverman
07-01-2012, 08:56 AM
While true that Portland offered max we don't know what the Pacers offered.

The idea he is leaning to Portland is Falk putting pressure on Walsh and Pritchard. Guarantee that did not come out of Roy's mouth last night. Roy just received the offers and hasn't made any decision yet whether he would bolt the Pacers for sure if they will not match. He has 10 days to make a decision as do the Pacers.

Roaming Gnome
07-01-2012, 08:58 AM
There is a reason why Roy is being offered the max. It is his defense, plain and simple. Quit throwing out offensive stats, we all know he hit 3 hook shots and a few put backs a game.

If we lose Hilbert our defense is what is going to struggle the most. Roy is the commander and chief on that end of the court and his mentality of no one is going to score on my rim is why he is getting his max offer. If we lose that we are no longer smash mouth. We can hope to find a Samuel Dalambart type player and move back down to 8-10th in the east.

You bite your inner lip, you sign the deal and you watch as the fans start to fill the seats and you make money. When PGs deal comes up you simply go into the luxury tax because by that point we are meaningful int he NBA again.

Anyone remember the centers we had before Hibbert? Maybe we can go offer Harrison another deal. THEY DO NOT GROW ON TREES!

Thanking this post just doesn't seem like its enough... I love it!

aero
07-01-2012, 08:59 AM
If I had to choose Hibbert or G Hill the no brainer is Hibbert. We must get him signed. Plain and simple. Area 55 in another arena? come on....NO!

PacersandIU
07-01-2012, 09:02 AM
exactly. this is reminding me of Brad Miller.

I say we bite the bullet and sign him to the max. It hurts the team's flexibility this offseason, but when Hibbs complains that we don't have enough weapons he'll just have to find comfort in the extra 2mil he got that could have gone to signing someone to help us win more ball games. not that he'll regret it... just sayin...

2minutes twoa
07-01-2012, 09:08 AM
I think you have to match the max offer and get him signed. I hope Roy realizes the pressure that comes along with the max player tag. He didn't respond well to the pressure after becoming an all-star.

FrenchConnection
07-01-2012, 09:11 AM
First of all, we are never going into the luxury tax ever again. The penalties under the new CBA are just too harsh and they are not just financial. Even the Lakers and Knicks will avoid it now, because its limits their ability to make roster moves by lowering the MLE and removing the biannual exemption.

Secondly, dude is gonna have to change his Twitter name if he signs with Portland to pacer2ablazer. This is why players should not associate themselves so closely with their franchise. How silly is all that Area 55 stuff going to look after he takes the money and runs? All kidding aside, Roy seems to know that the Pacers are going to match. Otherwise, why all the team-directed PR after the draft? He didn't have to do that, but still acted as a team player. The Pacers had to wait for the offer so that they can match, because their max is quite a bit higher than other teams' max. This situation works out best for all involved.

TOP
07-01-2012, 09:15 AM
I say we match and trade him a la Denver/Nene if it's going to require a max contract to get him signed. It's not like we need him, we have Plumlee.

As good as he is, I'm not sure I like his ability to rotate on defense. He seems late/slow a lot and it leaves wide open lanes for uncontested lay ups. Although, I really like how he turned it on in the playoffs and made every hook shot he threw up. I definitely feel like he could have given Lebron and Wade some harder fouls though.

This is really one of those things where we need him but I don't think he's worth max. Sign and trade is probably the way to go if a max contract is what matters most to him. I doubt this current roster wins a championship and giving him a max contract kind of handicaps our building efforts. There are potentially cheaper options out there is well. I know a lot of people will hate the idea but Spencer Hawes just turned 24 like a month ago and could probably be had for half the price.

Hibbert - 7'2 260lbs - 25years 7months
Hawes - 7'1 245lbs - 24years 2months
29.8mpg 12.8ppg 49.7%fg 71.1%ft 8.8rebs 1.7asts 2.0blks 0.5stl 2.0to 3.0pf
24.9mpg _9.6ppg 48.9%fg 72.7%ft 7.3rebs 2.6asts 1.3blks 0.4stl 1.5to 2.7pf

Hawes' is not as good as Hibbert but again, if he's half the price, it's something to think about. Maybe Hawes will end up getting a big offer too, who knows. Hawes was a defensive force to start the season before his injury.

I really am worried about the idea of giving Hibbert a max contract though. Especially when you look at the fact that his numbers are virtually identical for the past 3 seasons other than rebounds. It's looking like what you see is what you get. He may have reached his ceiling.

idioteque
07-01-2012, 09:15 AM
I think it would be silly not to match, Roy has blossomed into a really good defensive player with a substantial post game thrown in as well. Yeah, he's a little slow on defense sometimes and still needs to get stronger, but based on his work ethic and past tangible improvements there's no reason to believe this won't be an asset that keeps increasing in value. Pay the man.

Even if we don't, congratulations to a guy who couldn't do a push up his freshman year in college and who is now a max-paid NBA All-Star.

And for those who are talking about Spencer Hawes, I give you this analysis from a Sixers Fan (yeah, I know, only one guy but who here watches every 76ers game?):




And then there’s Spencer Hawes. Oh Spencer, he started off the season Hawesome and ended up being Haweful. But then, this is the real Spencer. Did you know he’s 7 feet tall? Did ya? Hm? I’m asking because…well…does he know it? Only reason why he pulls down rebounds is if he’s the only player within range of the rebound. Otherwise, Rajon Rondo will be able to come from behind and steal a rebound from a 7-footer. Oh how Haweful. He take jumpers. Okay fine. But wait, he fades away while taking the shot. You have a 6-8 forward on you and instead of trying to post up or just shoot over the player, you and your 7 foot frame decide to fade away. Oh gee. Yaaaaaay!
And then on defense. Bahahahaha! I mean he’s just so…HAHAHAHA! Forget the blocking. He can’t do it. It’s not fair.
I’ll give him credit though, he’s a guy that can play like a decent Center. When his starting job was taken, he fought to try and get it back. So is he lazy? Spoiled? I wouldn’t go that far. But, sometimes he needs motivation to be the best Center he can be. For the Sixers, it’s not much.



http://thesixersense.com/2012/07/01/thoughts-on-lou-williams-and-spencer-hawes/

TOP
07-01-2012, 09:16 AM
Even if we don't, congratulations to a guy who couldn't do a push up his freshman year in college and who is now a max-paid NBA All-Star.


That's crazy.

OakMoses
07-01-2012, 09:16 AM
Just for the record, if we match a max. offer for Roy while retaining the cap hold for Hill, we'll have about $4mm in cap space left. In other words, you can kiss any meaningful free agent acquisition good-bye.

mrknowname
07-01-2012, 09:20 AM
i don't see hibbert as a max player. he doesn't dominate in one area of the game and struggles guarding the pick and roll. if he does sign w/ portland hopefully a S&T for lillard and leonard could be worked out

TOP
07-01-2012, 09:20 AM
Just for the record, if we match a max. offer for Roy while retaining the cap hold for Hill, we'll have about $4mm in cap space left. In other words, you can kiss any meaningful free agent acquisition good-bye.

That's why I'm on board with matching and trading him if need be. I'd like to think this team could beat the Heat but with the refs, I don't know. I feel like we need to change the roster up a bit if we want people to take this team seriously. Losing guys like Barbosa and Lou while using all our cap to re-sign the same roster probably isn't going to get us any farther.

idioteque
07-01-2012, 09:21 AM
Just for the record, if we match a max. offer for Roy while retaining the cap hold for Hill, we'll have about $4mm in cap space left. In other words, you can kiss any meaningful free agent acquisition good-bye.

All analysis I read is that Steve Nash isn't even considering coming here (although what do they know at this point). If we are being ignored by free agents, the best bet for the Pacers is to sign the assets they have and hope for a good trade opportunity in the next year or so.

Hypnotiq
07-01-2012, 09:21 AM
Just for the record, if we match a max. offer for Roy while retaining the cap hold for Hill, we'll have about $4mm in cap space left. In other words, you can kiss any meaningful free agent acquisition good-bye.

And then we would be the Atlanta Hawks 2.0 and stuck in mediocrity for a good few years

TOP
07-01-2012, 09:25 AM
It's not like cap space is only valuable for luring free agents to sign here.

Some teams will be looking to shed salary. So instead of having to match contracts in a trade, we can absorb salaries in return while acquiring a quality player.

I'd hate to just p!ss away all of our cap room to re-sign the exact same roster minus key reserves like Barbosa and Lou.

Nuntius
07-01-2012, 09:26 AM
Re-signing Roy is something that we must absolutely do. If we don't, we'll be back in mediocrity. Re-signing Hill is not necessary.

Justin Tyme
07-01-2012, 09:28 AM
Give me a break. This is laughably naive and selfish. In no other area of life do we expect a person to do the exact same job for less pay.

What life do you live in? Many have lost their jobs b/c of that exact thing! Companies have closed factories down and moved them out of the USA b/c people wouldn't do the same job for less. It's been going on for a decade or more. Just look at the towns in Indiana that have lost businesses over the years. The quickest way for a business to save money is to cut payroll and benefits. If their employees won't take a cut in pay, they close down. Unfortunately, it happens all the time.

ensergio
07-01-2012, 09:28 AM
This team is 7th or 8th in te East without Hibbert. Pay the big man.

pizza guy
07-01-2012, 09:28 AM
I don't believe Roy is leaning towards Portland. That seems like an agent created thing. Either way, we're going to match, Roy will be a Pacer for awhile. In the next ten days, we'll still be able to make our best pitch to Nash or any other free agent, then if we get the handshake deal with someone and tell Roy we're going to match, all is well.

I know everyone sees re-signing Hill as a priority, but honestly if he's going to cost us a chance at another FA or Hibbert, I'm going to be supremely angry. If Pritch/Walsh let him walk, there may be some people upset on here because we gave up Kawhi Leonard, but that also wasn't their move, so it's not like they can really take much heat for that. I think he's going to be playing somewhere else next season.

Kstat
07-01-2012, 09:30 AM
You don't think playing alongside Lamarcus Aldridge and making more money has an appeal to it if you're Hibbert?

It's pretty simple, if I'm Roy and Indiana isn't offering me what I feel I'm worth. The only way he forced the Pacers to offer him the max is if he signs with another team and forces them to match or lose him.

Hypnotiq
07-01-2012, 09:30 AM
I think we should just match and if he doesn't perform to his deal dump him Nene style

MnvrChvy
07-01-2012, 09:31 AM
Man I love Hibbert, but if the Pacers feel they can't do this I will not Blaine them. Hibbert is not going to get much better and right now he is not a Max player. The idea we have to lure him with 5 years of a salary shackle is tough to swallow. Granger will not be resigned when that day comes and believe it or not I think that will cause us more problems than this.


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Jeremy
07-01-2012, 09:33 AM
I hope we don't match. He isn't worth that.

TOP
07-01-2012, 09:33 AM
In the end, I think we do have to re-sign him. He's too good to just let walk and apparently other franchises think he's worth max.

So instead of letting him walk for nothing at all, we could at least re-sign him and trade him.

Steagles
07-01-2012, 09:37 AM
Couldn't we in theory screw with their budget by upping the offer for Batum?


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Reginald
07-01-2012, 09:38 AM
You guys are making is sound like its an easy decision i dont think it is. im extremely hesitant to match i just dont think he is a max guy far to inconsistent

#55 is an All-Star center in a league that sorely lacks bigs. One of our team's major weaknesses last season was a lack of size to back up Roy, we just took a first-round flyer on a decidedly mediocre seven footer because of that weakness, and you don't think this is an easy decision?

Ozwalt72
07-01-2012, 09:40 AM
Only way a sign and trade is really feasible is if we tell them (and they actually believe) "Hey, we're matching this. But if you'd like to trade for him, this is who we want -"

OR if they want to drop cap space to make a run at someone else, dump a bit of salary on us and give us something nice.

LoneGranger33
07-01-2012, 09:41 AM
Couldn't we in theory screw with their budget by upping the offer for Batum?

Batum's agent is saying that Portland is the last option for his client. If we up the offer for Batum, we might just get Batum.

wseward
07-01-2012, 09:43 AM
He is going to be re-signed. No way the Pacers just let him walk without getting any value in exchange, which is the whole point of RFA anyway.

What happens after he is re-signed is what I am interested in. Do we keep him on the roster and let him soak up more cap space or trade him.

Clearly a pipe dream but with Howard and Deron wanting to play on the same team the Pacers are a perfect match for them. It is just too bad they don't want to play in the midwest.

S&T Hibbert & pieces for Howard. That will most likely be the best offer the Magic will see. They will get back an All-Star center and whatever young pieces we send and draft picks.

Sign Deron outright out of FA. If we sign Deron and have Howard I don't know how much money we have to spend on Hill, but if we do resign him.

Deron
PG
DG
West
Howard

That is a championship line-up but clearly a pipe dream.... ONLY IF

Reginald
07-01-2012, 09:43 AM
That's why I'm on board with matching and trading him if need be. I'd like to think this team could beat the Heat but with the refs...

Did some of you wake up this morning and drink a warm cup of crazy? If we get the ball to Roy on the block with any consistency, we beat the Heat. We lost that series precisely because after Game 3 we stopped using the one advantage we have over every stinking team in the league who doesn't have Dwight Howard on its roster.

PAY HIM, DONNIE!

Kstat
07-01-2012, 09:43 AM
Couldn't we in theory screw with their budget by upping the offer for Batum?




They can afford to lose Batum a lot more than you can afford to lose Hibbert.

The risk of signing a restricted free agent you don't really want is that you might GET him, and then it's your budget that's screwed up.

xBulletproof
07-01-2012, 09:47 AM
S&T Hibbert & pieces for Howard. That will most likely be the best offer the Magic will see. They will get back an All-Star center and whatever young pieces we send and draft picks.

Sign Deron outright out of FA.

How much cap space do people think we have? Dwight makes 19 million and Deron starts at what? 17 million? This isn't just a dream because of the personalities, it's just impossible even if they wanted to do it.

TOP
07-01-2012, 09:47 AM
Did some of you wake up this morning and drink a warm cup of crazy? If we get the ball to Roy on the block with any consistency, we beat the Heat. We lost that series precisely because after Game 3 we stopped using the one advantage we have over every stinking team in the league who doesn't have Dwight Howard on its roster.

PAY HIM, DONNIE!


Keep in mind, they didn't have Bosh.

I really don't think this exact same roster can beat the Heat minus key reserves.






Maybe we can get the Kings on the phone and swap Hibbert for baby Shaq. No way the Kings would do that though.

Dr. Awesome
07-01-2012, 09:49 AM
I accept that there is a small chance that Indiana doesn't match.

If they don't, the Pacers better be willing to lose a huge chunk of its fan base though. I will stop following the NBA all together if the Pacers don't match. I'll still be a Pacers "fan" I guess you could say, only because I have some weird, unexplained loyalty to them, but if they don't match I will become the most apathetic fan of all time. I won't look up box scores on ESPN, I won't follow basketball at all, I simply won't care.

I will refuse to follow a team that lets a player like him walk.

wintermute
07-01-2012, 09:52 AM
I mean I'm all for guys getting what the market bears, this isn't the end of the world.

What are other options at Center, if they don't? Spencer Hawes? Well, I'd like Spencer instead if it meant throwing a max concract at DWill.

Here's the thing, its not just Roy for the Max in a bubble, you have to think of all the other moves you could make or not make because of it.

Agreed that we'll be offering a 5 year non-max deal to Hibbert, but if Hibbert prefers the 4 year max deal offered by another team, then we'll just match that.

Going for a different FA center as you suggested won't free up more money though. Right now, Hibbert counts only as $6.5m on our cap, even though he's expected to end up with a cap hit close to $13m. So we're not going have more cap money to throw at Deron etc unless you think Hawes or whoever is willing to take less than $6.5m.

In any case, Deron not coming here isn't a function of money - we can surely find a way to clear the space if he's willing - he doesn't want to come here because it's Indiana. Hard truth, but there it is.


Just for the record, if we match a max. offer for Roy while retaining the cap hold for Hill, we'll have about $4mm in cap space left. In other words, you can kiss any meaningful free agent acquisition good-bye.

We still have plenty of time during the moratorium period to come up with another deal. Hibbert's cap hit doesn't become official until he signs. And I don't think the relationship between the Pacers and Hibbert is so bad that they can't prevail on him to wait on signing until they use the full cap space. It's quite common for teams to do so in fact.


Really did not know that, so basically we can not trade Roy if we sign him? even after free agency is over?

We can, just not to a 5 year deal with 7.5% raises. S&T in the new CBA is limited to 4 years, 4.5% raises, just like normal non-Bird FA. If we use Bird rights to sign him, then we'll have to wait 6 months I believe (like Nene).

Steagles
07-01-2012, 09:53 AM
I accept that there is a small chance that Indiana doesn't match.

If they don't, the Pacers better be willing to lose a huge chunk of its fan base though. I will stop following the NBA all together if the Pacers don't match. I'll still be a Pacers "fan" I guess you could say, only because I have some weird, unexplained loyalty to them, but if they don't match I will become the most apathetic fan of all time. I won't look up box scores on ESPN, I won't follow basketball at all, I simply won't care.

I will refuse to follow a team that lets a player like him walk.

I'll probably quit watching the NBA and start following IU more closely.


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Larry Staverman
07-01-2012, 10:00 AM
Interesting the huge premium being put on centers right after the NBA finals had 2 teams without a relevant center. Miami didn't have one and Perkins was worthless for OKC.

Kstat
07-01-2012, 10:03 AM
well, there are a handful of talented centers in the NBA, and only one LeBron James. Just because Miami got away with small ball doesn't mean anyone else can.

This is the NBA. A huge premium has been put on centers since 1948. Miami struggled to guard both Roy Hibbert and Kevin Garnett, and pretty much breezed past OKC and NY, perimeter teams without any real low post threat.

You think NBA GMs weren't paying attention to that? Why would they try to beat Miami at their own game rather than attack their weakness?

TOP
07-01-2012, 10:06 AM
well, there are a handful of talented centers in the NBA, and only one LeBron James. Just because Miami got away with small ball doesn't mean anyone else can.

This is the NBA. A huge premium has been put on centers since 1948.


Celtics played small ball and almost beat the Heat with a bunch of 35 year olds.

Pacerized
07-01-2012, 10:07 AM
That really sucks but it's not surprising. It shouldn't change the Pacers plans but they now have less time to pull things off. Hopefully Hibbert wants to stay here and he's been asked to give us time to work to bring in an impact free agent before signing anything. I hate to say it but we should match. Once we get another free agent signed, we'll be in cap purgatory for the next 4-8 years and we'll never be able to bring in another center as good as Hibbert. Go land Nash, then sign Hibbert and move on.

Kstat
07-01-2012, 10:08 AM
dumping the ball to 6'11" Kevin Garnett on the low block against 6'8" Joel Anthony is not "small ball."

Boston played the same style they always did. They just did it with a smaller lineup.

Justin Tyme
07-01-2012, 10:11 AM
Re-signing Roy is something that we must absolutely do. If we don't, we'll be back in mediocrity. Re-signing Hill is not necessary.


THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

You need Hibbert to continue to go forward, but Hill isn't a necessity to go forward.

People act as if Hill is something special, well he's not. If he was, Pop would have kept Hill and did "whatever was necessary" to to re-sign Hill. There are other players who are better PG's not with the name Nash, D'Will, or CP3. I look for OJ to be a better SG than Hill, and he'll be on a rookie contract. So "thanks again" Nuntius for stating the obvious for others to see!

Ownagedood
07-01-2012, 10:16 AM
I think we should sign and trade Hibbert.... I'm not sure he's worth the max. But being a top five center in the league he has a lot of value, you could get a star in a less valued position... Last thing you want to do is overpay a guy long term, the best thing you can do is trade a guy when he's in his prime. At his age Hibbert isn't going to get much better, but with his size and skill set he's a very high commodity in the league, make someone give up a lot for him.

Speed
07-01-2012, 10:17 AM
Its hard for me to get my mind around paying a max deal to a player who isn't even the best player on your team. I'm a huge fan of Roy the player and Roy the good guy, but its just a tough pill to swallow, isn't these type of deals the ones that hinder teams getting better, moving forward, and pretty much lock them into however good they are at that moment? I understand its the going rate, I understand its how things are set up... just a tough one. Does this keep you from resigning Paul George in 2 years to a long term deal? Trying to think past, Roys a great guy, rare commodity thing and think about the future of the franchise.

Now, read half of what I said and rip me for being a hater.

Ace E.Anderson
07-01-2012, 10:17 AM
That really sucks but it's not surprising. It shouldn't change the Pacers plans but they now have less time to pull things off. Hopefully Hibbert wants to stay here and he's been asked to give us time to work to bring in an impact free agent before signing anything. I hate to say it but we should match. Once we get another free agent signed, we'll be in cap purgatory for the next 4-8 years and we'll never be able to bring in another center as good as Hibbert. Go land Nash, then sign Hibbert and move on.

That's not completely true. D west and D Jones come off the books next year. That's about 12 million-ish, give or take. But assuming we bring west back, we won't be players in the FA market

TOP
07-01-2012, 10:20 AM
dumping the ball to 6'11" Kevin Garnett on the low block against 6'8" Joel Anthony is not "small ball."

Boston played the same style they always did. They just did it with a smaller lineup.



Just because you have a 6'11 guy on the floor doesn't mean you're not playing small ball. Kevin Durant is 6'11, Paul George is 6'10 and so on. Garnette is a PF playing center in my opinion and a lot of his baskets are mid range jumpers. He doesn't bang down low like most bigs do. Also, Joel Anthony only played 70 minutes in the series. That's 10mpg. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because I felt like the Celtics were playing small ball all season. Jermaine O'neal was originally their center and they moved KG from PF to center and then slid Brandon Bass from SF from to PF. So they had a PF playing C and a SF playing PF. Rondo was constantly pushing the temp and running the floor. He commented on how it was easy to do so because the Heat players stood back complaining about the refs.

Speed
07-01-2012, 10:21 AM
I think we should sign and trade Hibbert.... I'm not sure he's worth the max. But being a top five center in the league he has a lot of value, you could get a star in a less valued position... Last thing you want to do is overpay a guy long term, the best thing you can do is trade a guy when he's in his prime. At his age Hibbert isn't going to get much better, but with his size and skill set he's a very high commodity in the league, make someone give up a lot for him.

If as a franchise, you have one max deal, in your budget, wouldn't you rather spend it on an all-star Point Guard?

MillerTime
07-01-2012, 10:21 AM
Let Hibbert go and pick up Kaman

rm1369
07-01-2012, 10:24 AM
Roy is not currently worth the max. But quality true bigs are in short supply and with his work ethic and the consistant improvement he has made, you have to match and hope he gets there. But the Pacers can't be asleep at the wheel as they were during the LB & DW tag team era though. You keep Roy but you have to 1) get him a PG that can get him the damn ball 2) be ready to cut your losses if it appears to be a mistake - not wait until you get 100% value. If he regresses (I don't think he will) you have to look to move him quickly. The team has a history of holding on to mistakes and them trading them at their lowest point. That can't happen. And they can't lose him now for nothing.

I hope he signs the offer sheet with Portland. The shorter contract is more beneficial to the Pacers, IMO, than offering 5 years and slightly less salary. The shorter contract is going to make it quicker and easier to get out from under in the chance that it becomes a mistake.

graphic-er
07-01-2012, 10:25 AM
If the Pacer match I will be okay with it, no chance of bringing in another FA though, going to be sign Hill and fill out the roster with role players and scrubs.

If the Pacers were smart they would to do a sign a trade with Pheonix for Nash and Gortat. Alternatively I could see them being audacious and do sign and trade for Eric Gordon. The twin towers aspect for NOLA would be quite tempting.

pizza guy
07-01-2012, 10:28 AM
If the Pacer match I will be okay with it, no chance of bringing in another FA though, going to be sign Hill and fill out the roster with role players and scrubs.

If the Pacers were smart they would to do a sign a trade with Pheonix for Nash and Gortat. Alternatively I could see them being audacious and do sign and trade for Eric Gordon. The twin towers aspect for NOLA would be quite tempting.

You mean send Roy to NOH? Holy crap. Roy and the Brow next to each other would be monstrous. No one would ever get to the rim.

Kstat
07-01-2012, 10:28 AM
Just because you have a 6'11 guy on the floor doesn't mean you're not playing small ball. Kevin Durant is 6'11, Paul George is 6'10 and so on. Garnette is a PF playing center in my opinion and a lot of his baskets are mid range jumpers. He doesn't bang down low like most bigs do. Also, Joel Anthony only played 70 minutes in the series. That's 10mpg. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because I felt like the Celtics were playing small ball all season. Jermaine O'neal was originally their center and they moved KG from PF to center and then slid Brandon Bass from SF from to PF. So they had a PF playing C and a SF playing PF. Rondo was constantly pushing the temp and running the floor. He commented on how it was easy to do so because the Heat players stood back complaining about the refs.

Again...there's a big difference between a small team playing big and a small team playing small.

Miami played with 4-5 perimeter players on the floor. That's small ball.

Boston played 2 bigs and 3 perimeter players. That is not small ball, even though they used a small lineup.

rm1369
07-01-2012, 10:32 AM
It's debatable who the best player on the team is, but I don't think it's debatable who the most important player is. When Roy plays well the Pacers are a different team.

Pacerized
07-01-2012, 10:32 AM
Let Hibbert go and pick up Kaman

Kaman would be a great consolation prize and IMO he's still slightly better then Roy at this stage and isn't just an empty stat sheet.
However, if we let Roy walk and sign Kaman we still won't be able to improve because Kaman will take all of our cap space or at least enough of it that even without Roy's cap hold we wouldn't have enough left to bring in Nash. I suppose we could still move DC and Jones on top of removing Hibbert's cap hold and make a run for both Nash and Kaman.
I'd rather sign Nash today and overpay for Roy for the next 4 years. Giving Hibbert an extra 2 mil per year over what we might be able to get Kaman for is worth it when you consider age, potential, and injury history. Kaman will not come at a big discount either, centers are in short supply. Some is going to offer Kaman at least 4/40 if not more.

Justin Tyme
07-01-2012, 10:33 AM
LOL! What's all the fuss and turmoil about?? Did you learn nothing from Bird?? Patience grasshoppers, let others rattle their swords. Wait until someone "finally" gives Hibbert an offer sheet and he signs it. Then just match it. No reason to be pressured into giving a max contract with a 5th year. You save a year on the contract in case Hibbert doesn't improve, or he gets injured. If he's not working out to expectations, you trade him. It will be easier to trade him with a 4 year contract than a 5 year contract. Believe me Hibbert's agent wants that max contract with the 5th year and is pushing for it. But the Pacers have the last say. Patience is virtue, no need to be in a hurry.

I'm anything but a patient person as the GOOD LORD didn't give me the that thing called patience. If there is 1 thing I can really applaud Bird for was his overall patience in working a plan. There is no reason to get into a fuss over signing Hibbert, just let other teams set the table that you are going to dine from.

Ownagedood
07-01-2012, 10:35 AM
We should trade Hibbert and DC for Rondo and Melo

Rogco
07-01-2012, 10:35 AM
You guys are making is sound like its an easy decision i dont think it is. im extremely hesitant to match i just dont think he is a max guy far to inconsistent

It's not just the inconsistency, it's his conditioning. He will never be more than a 30 minutes a game guy, and his production always declines after the first quarter as you can see he is physically gassed. Many games I saw him trying to get out of the game and Vogel ignoring him.

I'm really torn. I view Hibbert as a 10mil a year guy. Very good defender and amazingly high character guy. Inconsistent but talented on offense with confidence issues and get's pushed around by physical centers.

Speed
07-01-2012, 10:38 AM
LOL! What's all the fuss and turmoil about?? Did you learn nothing from Bird?? Patience grasshoppers, let others rattle their swords. Wait until someone "finally" gives Hibbert an offer sheet and he signs it. Then just match it. No reason to be pressured into giving a max contract with a 5th year. You save a year on the contract in case Hibbert doesn't improve, or he gets injured. If he's not working out to expectations, you trade him. It will be easier to trade him with a 4 year contract than a 5 year contract. Believe me Hibbert's agent wants that max contract with the 5th year and is pushing for it. But the Pacers have the last say. Patience is virtue, no need to be in a hurry.

I'm anything but a patient person as the GOOD LORD didn't give me the that thing called patience. If there is 1 thing I can really applaud Bird for was his overall patience in working a plan. There is no reason to get into a fuss over signing Hibbert, just let other teams set the table that you are going to dine from.

Good Point, Pacers are in the drivers seat. They can pursue other options, see whats available, then not decide on Roy until the earliest 7/14.

Pacerized
07-01-2012, 10:43 AM
[QUOTE=Speed;1468839]Good Point, Pacers are in the drivers seat. They can pursue other options, see whats available, then not decide on Roy until the earliest 7/14.

Why 7/14? If Roy signs the offer sheet we have only 3 days to sign an ufa and then match Roy.

Justin Tyme
07-01-2012, 10:43 AM
Its hard for me to get my mind around paying a max deal to a player who isn't even the best player on your team. I'm a huge fan of Roy the player and Roy the good guy, but its just a tough pill to swallow, isn't these type of deals the ones that hinder teams getting better, moving forward, and pretty much lock them into however good they are at that moment? I understand its the going rate, I understand its how things are set up... just a tough one. Does this keep you from resigning Paul George in 2 years to a long term deal? Trying to think past, Roys a great guy, rare commodity thing and think about the future of the franchise.

Now, read half of what I said and rip me for being a hater.


You darn hater! J/k

When it's time to re-sign PG, won't Granger and West's contracts have expired? To me, again to me, it's more important not to overpay to re-sign Hill as others seem so willing to do. If you keep Hill's contract in the 5-5.5 mil category it gives 2-3 mil more cap to work with in the future. JMOAA

Mackey_Rose
07-01-2012, 10:46 AM
If the Pacers don't match, they might as well just tell their fans to hope and pray for a 1st round playoff birth every year, because it won't get much better than that.

Hicks
07-01-2012, 10:49 AM
It's time to take our medicine.

Yes, it sucks to not get any home town discount or more realistically (though still not very probable) to not have anyone offer him a max deal, but here we stand.

I fail to see any attractive alternatives. The closest thing to a real replacement is Chris Kaman, which I would really have to be sold on to go that route. I just don't see him giving us enough of what Roy did to warrant that switch up.

Unless Indiana is prepared to go small and put David West at the 5 and Granger at the 4, I think we're matching, or at least that we ought to match.

Being a donut team suuuuuuucks. Only time it doesn't is if you are so talented at other positions that you can get by with a journeyman center like Miami or the 90's Bulls. Obviously that does not describe our team at all.

No, we're building with depth and that means good to hopefully very good players at all 5 spots, and Roy meets that criteria. The way the world works is that in the NBA, centers get overpaid. It's been this way for over a decade now. Nobody thinks that Roy, in a vacuum, is worth this kind of a contract. Not you, not me, not the Pacers, not the Blazers, not even Roy and his agent if they were being brutally honest, but we all know the truth: He'll get that money anyway. Because that's how it has worked, that's how it does work, and clearly that's the reality of it as of this morning.

Fortunately, we're not just overspending for any old center. Ours works his *** off as hard as anyone in the league to get better and stay health, ours is a P.R. dream, ours gets along with everyone he plays with, ours is a two-way center who can block shots and rebound and pass (and occasionally even shoot), ours is willing to do whatever his body allows him to do (including diving to the floor) to win.

To me, the choice is painful, but clear: Match!

*astrisk*
07-01-2012, 10:49 AM
[QUOTE=Speed;1468839]Good Point, Pacers are in the drivers seat. They can pursue other options, see whats available, then not decide on Roy until the earliest 7/14.

Why 7/14? If Roy signs the offer sheet we have only 3 days to sign an ufa and then match Roy.

You can't sign an offer sheet until 10 days after free agency begins...Then we have 3 days...

PacersHomer
07-01-2012, 10:52 AM
They're going to match, and anyone who is mentioning trying to get the manchild Dwight Howard is showing their lack of intelligence. Come on. The Pacers have to match. That cap space isn't going to all of those star players who are dying to sign with Indiana. Roy is one of the best centers in the league and he's still getting better. This is an obvious match, and he's worth it.

Kstat
07-01-2012, 10:54 AM
They're going to match, and anyone who is mentioning trying to get the manchild Dwight Howard is showing their lack of intelligence. Come on. The Pacers have to match. That cap space isn't going to all of those star players who are dying to sign with Indiana. Roy is one of the best centers in the league and he's still getting better. This is an obvious match, and he's worth it.
This about sums it up.

The Pacers don't want to give Roy that money, but they will.

Banta
07-01-2012, 10:57 AM
This team is 7th or 8th in te East without Hibbert. Pay the big man.


Where are they in the East with Mahinmi or Speights or Mohommed + whomever they add to the roster with the leftover money they don't spend on Hibbert?

Kstat
07-01-2012, 10:59 AM
without Hibbert they're 7th or 8th. Without hibbert and with speights or Mohammed, they're 9th or 10th.

Other than Kaman, there isnt another center out there thats going to start for Indiana and have a positive impact, and Kaman's defense is average at best, so you'd only be replacing Hibbert on one side of the floor.

Hicks
07-01-2012, 11:01 AM
Give me a break. This is laughably naive and selfish. In no other area of life do we expect a person to do the exact same job for less pay.

Yep.

Although, to be fair, not a lot of other jobs get you $13,750,000.00 per year...

xBulletproof
07-01-2012, 11:03 AM
I really don't like it but going through alternatives all morning I've come up with nothing.

I just hope the Pacers stick to their less than max offer. See if you can get him to agree to that, and if so awesome. If not, then you just match whatever you have to. Matching also gives you a 3 day window to use the cap space before Roy's signing eats it all up. If he's willing to take less to stay outright, then he should also be willing to not sign it for a couple of days until we use the cap space too. The key is using that other cap space first.

Sandman21
07-01-2012, 11:03 AM
D.J. Foster ‏@fosterdj

Important to remember that Hibbert's max deal isn't a "full" max because he's coming off rookie deal. Also, positional scarcity matters.

Hicks
07-01-2012, 11:05 AM
I am amazed after stating this would happen so many months ago, that this is even a discussion, by not offering him f.i. a 10 mio p/a extension you took this risk

His agent would never agreed to an extension. They didn't want one. This is why. They knew, as you and I did, this was likely to happen. Smart on their part. We could offer them anything short of something larger than $58/4 and they would say no at the time. No reason not to unless they feared an injury.

Pacersalltheway10
07-01-2012, 11:05 AM
We have until July 13 people.

*astrisk*
07-01-2012, 11:09 AM
It's time to take our medicine.

Yes, it sucks to not get any home town discount or more realistically (though still not very probable) to not have anyone offer him a max deal, but here we stand.

I fail to see any attractive alternatives. The closest thing to a real replacement is Chris Kaman, which I would really have to be sold on to go that route. I just don't see him giving us enough of what Roy did to warrant that switch up.

Unless Indiana is prepared to go small and put David West at the 5 and Granger at the 4, I think we're matching, or at least that we ought to match.

Being a donut team suuuuuuucks. Only time it doesn't is if you are so talented at other positions that you can get by with a journeyman center like Miami or the 90's Bulls. Obviously that does not describe our team at all.

No, we're building with depth and that means good to hopefully very good players at all 5 spots, and Roy meets that criteria. The way the world works is that in the NBA, centers get overpaid. It's been this way for over a decade now. Nobody thinks that Roy, in a vacuum, is worth this kind of a contract. Not you, not me, not the Pacers, not the Blazers, not even Roy and his agent if they were being brutally honest, but we all know the truth: He'll get that money anyway. Because that's how it has worked, that's how it does work, and clearly that's the reality of it as of this morning.

Fortunately, we're not just overspending for any old center. Ours works his *** off as hard as anyone in the league to get better and stay health, ours is a P.R. dream, ours gets along with everyone he plays with, ours is a two-way center who can block shots and rebound and pass (and occasionally even shoot), ours is willing to do whatever his body allows him to do (including diving to the floor) to win.

To me, the choice is painful, but clear: Match!

I completely agree with ALL points... The only reports I have seen suggest Roy is only leaning toward a MAX deal... Obviously, Roy's agent is playing hardball. If I was KP, I would play hardball right with him. Do my due dilligence. Contact all free agent centers and sell them on the fact we are building a contender and we may have an opening. Get a deal with Kaman or McGee done, contingent upon us not matching Roys deal. And let Roy think he gets to go rebuild for the next few years and allow him to make that tough decision. With the worst case scenario being, we match a Max deal at the wire. As long as our deal is fair. 13-14 mil for 5. I believe he will agree to stay...

Hicks
07-01-2012, 11:12 AM
This is an entirely different topic of conversation really. But it really doesn't have much to do with Roy being "worth" the max. It has to do with the concept of a max contract in general.

Roy's going to be on the same contract as Westbrook and Durant right? Well, if Roy'd made some All-NBA teams and whatever those stipulations are. That's not Roy's fault. He's absolutely as important to us as Durant is to OKC. He just isn't as good, and in turn our team isn't. Which is why the entire concept of a "max contract" is stupid. If a player's THAT good, he should be able to make 99% of the salary cap. Putting a cap on individual salaries just further limits markets, not just small markets, just markets in general. It deflates the actual value of incredibly great, REAL game changing players.

Soft salary cap, fine. Max contract, stupid. Want real parity? There you go.

I would argue that the max contract is about to save us money.

Ownagedood
07-01-2012, 11:16 AM
I didn't realize how low the max was for Hibbert coming off his rookie contract, from other teams.. It's not as high as you would think, we may only have to pay him around 13 to 14 mil a year.. I would keep him for that amount. I feel his actual worth is more around 11.5 but sometimes you have to overpay for something you really need.

rm1369
07-01-2012, 11:19 AM
I would argue that the max contract is about to save us money.

In actual money you may be right, but in value it hurts us. It artificially lowers the ceiling on the truly great players. There are significantly better players than Roy that will be making the same amount. We essentially have less money available to make up the difference. Miami would never have occurred if there was no Max, but an overall salary cap. It's one thing for those players to take a million or so less, but what would LBJ even offered by Cleveland, NY, or NJ? The max salary is a benefit for any team that has a top 10 player and hurts everybody else.

Banta
07-01-2012, 11:22 AM
without Hibbert they're 7th or 8th. Without hibbert and with speights or Mohammed, they're 9th or 10th.

Other than Kaman, there isnt another center out there thats going to start for Indiana and have a positive impact, and Kaman's defense is average at best, so you'd only be replacing Hibbert on one side of the floor.

I guess I simply disagree with you. There are 2 Roy Hibberts-- the one that plays like a beast and the one that is largely invisible. You see both of these Hibberts about an equal amount of time. Considering that Center has become the least important position in the NBA now, why tie up so much money at the position for a player who is maddeningly inconsistent and only able to play 30 mpg.

Pacers should sign a different center and focus on becoming a faster and more dynamic team at other positions.

Hicks
07-01-2012, 11:23 AM
July 11th is when the signing starts I believe. Until then it's all handshake agreements.

Is it 11, or 10? I keep getting confused on that point.

d_c
07-01-2012, 11:24 AM
The max salary is a benefit for any team that has a top 10 Ayer and hurts everybody else.

Basically, yeah.

There's just a handful of players in the league that are head and shoulders above the rest. And when you put a limit to how much they can be paid, their impact-cost ratio is significantly higher than other players in the league. Lebron at the MAX is one of the biggest bargains in the league, in terms of getting what you pay for.

aaronb
07-01-2012, 11:25 AM
It's not really a crossroads. We match.


Then you lock yourself into a roster that isn't good enough to win anything. Or at least run that risk.

I feel like having Perry Jones could have softened a Roy loss.

Hicks
07-01-2012, 11:26 AM
Just for the record, if we match a max. offer for Roy while retaining the cap hold for Hill, we'll have about $4mm in cap space left. In other words, you can kiss any meaningful free agent acquisition good-bye.

Only if we can't get something done quickly or if Roy doesn't give us time before he signs the contract. Either is still in play.

Pacergeek
07-01-2012, 11:29 AM
Pacers should let Roy walk. The NBA has evolved away from traditional centers.

aaronb
07-01-2012, 11:29 AM
I guess I simply disagree with you. There are 2 Roy Hibberts-- the one that plays like a beast and the one that is largely invisible. You see both of these Hibberts about an equal amount of time. Considering that Center has become the least important position in the NBA now, why tie up so much money at the position for a player who is maddeningly inconsistent and only able to play 30 mpg.

Pacers should sign a different center and focus on becoming a faster and more dynamic team at other positions.


This is largely where I am as well.

Back to the basket Centers are a dying breed. I wouldn't mind having a big 4 playing there that mainly just rebounds and plays defense. Go out and get an Eric Gordon or OJ Mayo that can create off the dribble to replace Roy's offense.

*astrisk*
07-01-2012, 11:29 AM
Is it 11, or 10? I keep getting confused on that point.

I was under the impression that the 11th is the first day players can sign... RFAs have to be matched by the 13th, 11:59

Kstat
07-01-2012, 11:31 AM
Pacers should let Roy walk. The NBA has evolved away from traditional centers.

No it hasn't. One championship that almost never was does not change 60+ years of history.

Not to mention, that's they only way anybody is going to defeat the current champion.

But hey, you can always sign OJ mayo and bring back obrien...

Hicks
07-01-2012, 11:32 AM
dumping the ball to 6'11" Kevin Garnett on the low block against 6'8" Joel Anthony is not "small ball."

Boston played the same style they always did. They just did it with a smaller lineup.

Well, LISTED 6'11" anyway. I've seen him and Hibbert play together in the post; the dude is at least 7'1".

Ownagedood
07-01-2012, 11:32 AM
Pacers should let Roy walk. The NBA has evolved away from traditional centers.

I feel Hibbert is actually more dangerous because he's one of them... Think about it, a 7'2 center who has a hook shot and is great at protecting the rim and also passes well.... The only thing that can stop Roy Hibbert is Roy Hibbert himself. No one can stop a big Center who has a hook on offense or that is 7'2 and jumps straight up to block, disrupt shots at the rim.

IndyJones
07-01-2012, 11:32 AM
It is a hard pill to swallow to give a player a max contract who at times is dominated by scrubs. As much as I love Roy he is wildly inconsistent.

Giving Roy a max contract can only make sense if we upgrade our ability to get the ball to him. The Roy on the team as it is now is not worth a max contract IMO because we have no one who can give him the ball where Roy needs to get it. If we were able to get Nash (yeah I know, not likely) I think Roy would have a monster year.

Hicks mentioned going small with West at Center, what about getting Gordon for SG, and moving George to SF

Kstat
07-01-2012, 11:33 AM
Well, LISTED 6'11" anyway. I've seen him and Hibbert play together in the post; the dude is at least 7'1".

Still, he's a bit light for a center. doesn't change the fact he played the part since midseason.

IndyJones
07-01-2012, 11:33 AM
Also this is what really irks me about Simon's stance about not going after restricted free agents, when multiple teams go after ours.

Hicks
07-01-2012, 11:40 AM
So is it 55 or 58 that Portland can offer?

In any case, Wells is saying our max is 5 years, 79m.

So let's say those are the two: 58/4 vs. 79/5. That's 14.5 per year, on average, versus 15.8 per years, on average.

I think it's as simple as that: We didn't offer OUR max because OUR max is 1.3 MORE per year than anyone else's. My guess is we offered 5 years for somewhere between 58 and 78 million, then POR and another team offered 4 years for 58, and initial word is Roy is leaning towards Portland, which suggest we offered close to 5 years and maybe ~60.

So either we can skip the formalities and just offer him 58/4 ourselves, or let him jump through the hoop of signing POR's 58/4, then match it 3 days later while we try to add a piece in free agency elsewhere.

Downtown Bang!
07-01-2012, 11:41 AM
As others have said signing Hill is not mandatory. The Pacers only chance to become championship relevant is to put a long, defensive minded, deep & physically intimidating team on the floor. A team built for the grind of a seven game playoff series.

Hibbert is the cornerstone for that vision and must be resigned. Getting there will depend on PG becoming what we hope he can be, some luck in the draft and also how well the Pacers can leverage the relatively cheap contracts of solid veterans like Danny Granger & David West for good young talent.

Too many Pacers fans are delusional and believe we are on the cusp of a finals run. There is much work to be done yet before that happens.

Ownagedood
07-01-2012, 11:43 AM
I think I would wait and make Hibbert sign Portlands contract first... their max is not gonna get any higher and it will prove Portland wasn't just trying to up the ante for us, but that they actually were willing to sign him for it too.. its a game of chess, don't sign him for higher than you need to unless your absolutely certain that he would go eslewhere for that much. Wait it out.

Hicks
07-01-2012, 11:45 AM
I completely agree with ALL points... The only reports I have seen suggest Roy is only leaning toward a MAX deal... Obviously, Roy's agent is playing hardball. If I was KP, I would play hardball right with him. Do my due dilligence. Contact all free agent centers and sell them on the fact we are building a contender and we may have an opening. Get a deal with Kaman or McGee done, contingent upon us not matching Roys deal. And let Roy think he gets to go rebuild for the next few years and allow him to make that tough decision. With the worst case scenario being, we match a Max deal at the wire. As long as our deal is fair. 13-14 mil for 5. I believe he will agree to stay...

Roy would never contemplate going to Portland if he wasn't comfortable with that scenario playing out. Playing hardball wouldn't get us anywhere (at least not in the positive direction; could cause some hard feelings, perhaps). Just offer Roy $58/4 ourselves and be done with it.

Pacerized
07-01-2012, 11:48 AM
Roy would never contemplate going to Portland if he wasn't comfortable with that scenario playing out. Playing hardball wouldn't get us anywhere (at least not in the positive direction; could cause some hard feelings, perhaps). Just offer Roy $58/4 ourselves and be done with it.

Isn't it 4/55 that they can offer and 4/58 that we can offer? If so that still saves us 3 mil by matching and it buys us just a little time to use our cap space on someone like Nash first.

Hicks
07-01-2012, 11:53 AM
Sam Amico ‏@SamAmicoFSO
Source familiar with Pacers' thinking says team likely to match any offer for C Roy Hibbert. Blazers reportedly set to offer him a max deal.

Kstat
07-01-2012, 11:55 AM
This was inevitable. Roy is the one player the pacers can't replace.

rm1369
07-01-2012, 11:58 AM
It is a game to a degree. I can guarantee that his agent doesn't want him to sign with the Pacers for 4/58. He will do everything in his power to try to force the pacers to give their max - both in years and raises. There is no need for the Pacers to do anything else , assuming they've presented a fair offer. Let Roy make a decision and then the Pacers can make theirs (assuming he signs someone's offer sheet). Ultimately it sounds like Roy should be a pacer next year for 4/58. IMO, that's the best scenario - let him sign an offer sheet and then match it. We have 11 days to negotiate other deals. Don't waste time worrying about Roy - his price is set.

Hicks
07-01-2012, 11:58 AM
So the way this normally plays out, what I expect to happen is on the 10th/11th Roy will sign the Portland contract, then on the 13th/14th we will match it, using that 3 day window to try to sign an outsider free agent while we still have the additional cap space free.

The best case scenario is we verbally agree to pay Roy $58/4yrs, and he then waits a little bit longer to actually sign the contract, giving us more than 3 days to try to take advantage of our additional cap space on somebody else. We can sign someone else with that space first; the rules then allow us to go OVER the cap to re-sign our own free agents (Hibbert, Hill).

Suaveness
07-01-2012, 11:59 AM
I mean, just look at the Miami series. No way we get 2 games off of them without Roy. You can't get rid of him, he's too important.

tadscout
07-01-2012, 11:59 AM
Teams can agree to terms with players, but not sign anything till the 10 day window is over. This doesn't affect if we can sign someone with our cap-space before we sign or match Hibbert.

All the talk KP and DW have done about keeping our players, there's no way we don't keep Hibbert, they knew this was a possibility... they wouldn't have talked the talk unless they were willing to walk the walk...

If you don't have a superstar, it is a must to have a quality 2 way center, we can't find a better replacement. He is the key to the team.

Kstat
07-01-2012, 12:02 PM
I wouldn't consider that last part a possibility. He wouldn't verbally agree to a contract without signing it the first day of free agency. He loses all leverage if he waits while other teams spend their money on other players.

J7F
07-01-2012, 12:05 PM
We also had Rik Smits, Brad Miller, and Jeff Foster - all of whom were very good.

Funny that you should meantion Brad Miller... That is a good comparison for Roy's situation and how losing him could leave us without a top notch Center for another decade... Both players were UFAs coming off an all-star year...

For my dollar... Not not matching Sacramento's offer to Brad was a big reason why that Pacers squad never competed for a championship... It was so hard to find a replacement top notch Center that JO was forced to bulk up his upper body to play against the better Centers in the league... I always felt JO's injury problems were caused by those chicken legs having to hold up a big upper body...

7'2 Allstars that play well on both ends of the floor absolutely do not grow on trees... You match that offer... And you thank God that you were in contention to get him in the first place...

There are only a handfull of players that can be considered in the same league as Roy at Center in the NBA and they are all paid similarly... And he really does have a good shot at continuing to improve his game from where it is... He can be top 5 easily at his position for a good duration of this next contract... Maybe better...

A truly good center is so rare to obtain... That's why even role playing Centers get paid rediculous amounts of money... We have an advantage at 1 of the 5 positions for the vast majority of the games we play with Roy at Center...

The cost of a mini-max contract is high... The cost of losing Roy's impact on both ends of the floor is higher...

Nuntius
07-01-2012, 12:05 PM
This was inevitable. Roy is the one player the pacers can't replace.

Exactly. Peck has been saying it the whole time. Roy will get the max and we will match.

*astrisk*
07-01-2012, 12:05 PM
Roy would never contemplate going to Portland if he wasn't comfortable with that scenario playing out. Playing hardball wouldn't get us anywhere (at least not in the positive direction; could cause some hard feelings, perhaps). Just offer Roy $58/4 ourselves and be done with it.

I disagree Hicks. People use leverage in negotiations all the time. We would be doing the same thing by talking to other free agents with the intentions of matching roys Max offer if need be. Business is business. What is the worst thing that happens? Roy gets mad and signs the Max deal. Big whoop. We just match it. Also, by waiting till the 13th. It also puts Blazers in a tough spot to lose out on other free agents. Asik etc. Which is why RF agency is a hard game to play. We hold ALL of the power. The team that bids, has to hope that we don't match, while also hoping the other top free agents don't sign with other teams.

Kstat
07-01-2012, 12:07 PM
I disagree Hicks. People use leverage in negotiations all the time. We would be doing the same thing by talking to other free agents with the intentions of matching roys Max offer if need be. Business is business. What is the worst thing that happens? Roy gets mad and signs the Max deal. Big whoop. We just match it. Also, by waiting till the 13th. It also puts Blazers in a tough spot to lose out on other free agents. Asik etc.

Yes but there nobody you could possibly talk to that wouldn't guve roy's agent a good laugh.

Sure, talking to other free agent centers is good business. It just won't have anything to do with the Hibbert negotiations.

rm1369
07-01-2012, 12:10 PM
Before it happens, let me say that I won't be surprised to start hearing how Roy is pissed about the way the Pacers are handling negotiations, that he loves the team and the weather in Portland, always dreamed of playing for Portland, or some other BS story that hints that he wants to be somewhere other than Indy. That will be Faulk doing his job trying to put pressure on the Pacers to up their offer above what he can get from another team. Don't freak out if / when it happens.

The Future
07-01-2012, 12:18 PM
Um, no thanks.

Hibbert is a good player but he is not GREAT.

We need to be conservative with our money as GREAT players only deserve the max at this point.

Hibbert is plagued with inconsistency still and 13 and 9 with 2 blocks is not max contract potential.

Clearly Portland is trying to Pritch-slap Pritchard and hopefully he doesnt match a MAX contract.

At this point, I'd rather S&T Hibbert for Batum.

Heck, Hibbert + PG for Batum and Aldridge

Kstat
07-01-2012, 12:23 PM
So...exactly which GREAT players do you plan on getting with all that cap space?

Hicks
07-01-2012, 12:24 PM
Isn't it 4/55 that they can offer and 4/58 that we can offer? If so that still saves us 3 mil by matching and it buys us just a little time to use our cap space on someone like Nash first.

No, that's not correct. 4/58 they can offer. 5/79 we can offer.

Major Cold
07-01-2012, 12:25 PM
Would you sign and trade to Portland for Damian Lillard and a future highly protected pick?

PaceBalls
07-01-2012, 12:26 PM
I accept that there is a small chance that Indiana doesn't match.

If they don't, the Pacers better be willing to lose a huge chunk of its fan base though. I will stop following the NBA all together if the Pacers don't match. I'll still be a Pacers "fan" I guess you could say, only because I have some weird, unexplained loyalty to them, but if they don't match I will become the most apathetic fan of all time. I won't look up box scores on ESPN, I won't follow basketball at all, I simply won't care.

I will refuse to follow a team that lets a player like him walk.

It certainly would damper any enthusiasm I have. I might check in once in a while to see how Plumlee is doing replacing Roy... God, let's just not go there.

Hicks
07-01-2012, 12:28 PM
Ken Berger ‏@KBergCBS
RFA Roy Hibbert's four-year, max offer sheet from Portland is worth $58.4M. Pacers center leaning that way. Indy has three days to match.

That is to say, three days after he signs it in 10 days.

redfoster
07-01-2012, 12:28 PM
Matching this offer will SAVE the Pacers money. Any offer we would make would be higher than this, and now we don't have to make it. It is a fine deal for us and an automatic match. 4y/58mil is fine for a skilled Center in this era.

We will be alright on money in 2 years anyway (West and then Granger expire and we might have a bit of $ before we extend PG), then we can go after these "amazing" players that come out as free agents every year and all want to play in Indiana.

Some of you need to really think hard about this and not just use your first instinct to say "Gosh darnit, $58mil is more than I want to pay him." Of course it is more than you want to pay him. It's more than what the Pacers wants to pay him, too, but that is actually pretty irrelevant to the matter.


tl;dr
Just listen to Hicks and kstat. They know what's up.

Major Cold
07-01-2012, 12:28 PM
At this point, I'd rather S&T Hibbert for Batum.

Heck, Hibbert + PG for Batum and Aldridge

So you would trade one of the best centers in the east for a player that is, at best, slightly better than Paul George?

Bball
07-01-2012, 12:37 PM
Correct me if my memory is wrong but wasn't signing Hibbert to an extension taken off the table by his agent who preferred to wait until after the season to negotiate?

If the agent didn't want to talk extension then how can the FO be slighted for not signing him to one?

And not offering him the max off the bat is fine because you have the option of matching. Why pay more than anyone else... especially when you have the option of offering an additional year (which means you will be offering more overall anyway)? The Pacers had to get something on the table but I doubt they haven't signaled their intentions to the agent. So he knows Roy has value to them. And so does Roy.

CableKC
07-01-2012, 12:47 PM
Could someone tell me the difference between any other Team offering Hibbert a MAX contract and the Pacers offering him a MAX offer?

Outside of being able to offer 1 more year....are the Pacers able to offer a larger percentage raise per year?

Either way...if the Pacers had to give Hibbert a MAX Contract...id rather match a 4 year MAX Contract that another Team offers him than give him a 5 year MAX Contract.

_The_Future_
07-01-2012, 12:48 PM
I am not worried. We will match, Roy will be a Pacer. Calm down.

gummy
07-01-2012, 12:49 PM
Roy's starting salary would be $12,922,194 per current cap/cba

I am amazed after stating this would happen so many months ago, that this is even a discussion, by not offering him f.i. a 10 mio p/a extension you took this risk deliberately any possible discount would have been at that stage, now there is no such thing, why would he?


I don't understand why you persist with this idea that the Pacers screwed up by not offering Roy an extension. It was widely reported both before and after the deadline that Roy's agent decided waiting was best and he did not even entertain negotiations about it at that time. Roy's agent refused the very idea of an extension - how on earth can that be a Pacers FO failure?

I've seen people explain this to you multiple times over the months. You've been provided links with quotes from Roy, the Pacers, the agent - all saying the same thing. But you can't let it go because it fits the Bird sux axe you've been grinding, truth be damned. There are many things that are true that we can criticize Larry for, there is no need to use falsehoods. It is beneath you.

Edit: I see several other people made this point while I was typing. I hope you internalize it this time and give this "we screwed up by not extending Roy" thing a rest.

Professor S
07-01-2012, 12:49 PM
Could someone tell me the difference between any other Team offering Hibbert a MAX contract and the Pacers offering him a MAX offer?

Outside of being able to offer 1 more year....are the Pacers able to offer a larger percentage raise per year?

Either way...if the Pacers had to give Hibbert a MAX Contract...id rather match a 4 year MAX Contract that another Team offers him than give him a 5 year MAX Contract.

Pacers can offer approximately $79 million over five years, an average of $15.8 million per year. Other teams can offer $58.4 million over four years, or approximately $14.5 per year.

_The_Future_
07-01-2012, 12:50 PM
BTW I thought this thread was about Brandon Roy at first. I was like "A max deal, WTF?"

_The_Future_
07-01-2012, 12:52 PM
Um, no thanks.

Hibbert is a good player but he is not GREAT.

We need to be conservative with our money as GREAT players only deserve the max at this point.

Hibbert is plagued with inconsistency still and 13 and 9 with 2 blocks is not max contract potential.

Clearly Portland is trying to Pritch-slap Pritchard and hopefully he doesnt match a MAX contract.

At this point, I'd rather S&T Hibbert for Batum.

Heck, Hibbert + PG for Batum and Aldridge

:picard:

PS - Your user name is very unique

Heisenberg
07-01-2012, 12:52 PM
For all you sign and trade people, it's not that easy with RFAs. You can't match and then trade a guy to the team whose offer you matched for a year. You can't trade him period for whichever date is later, 3 months from the day the deal was signed or December 15th.

Applicable sections of the CBA are Article XI, sections 5I and 5G, and Article VII section 8D

MiaDragon
07-01-2012, 12:59 PM
Just for the record, if we match a max. offer for Roy while retaining the cap hold for Hill, we'll have about $4mm in cap space left. In other words, you can kiss any meaningful free agent acquisition good-bye.

Yep way to handcuff the team bud. Let the guy walk. He's not the difference maker that we need to win it all, I do love all the "I love the pacers and this is where I want to be", what he really meant was I will stay here if the Pacers pay me the most money. Enjoy Portland/Dallas or whoever else that offers to over pay. I shall shed not one tear.

Hicks
07-01-2012, 01:02 PM
Roy Hibbert isn't a difference maker? Holy crap.

PacersHomer
07-01-2012, 01:05 PM
So many people are basically saying, "I know nothing about basketball or how contracts in the NBA work! Here's my opinion!" This thread is hilarious.

wintermute
07-01-2012, 01:06 PM
Could someone tell me the difference between any other Team offering Hibbert a MAX contract and the Pacers offering him a MAX offer?

Outside of being able to offer 1 more year....are the Pacers able to offer a larger percentage raise per year?

Either way...if the Pacers had to give Hibbert a MAX Contract...id rather match a 4 year MAX Contract that another Team offers him than give him a 5 year MAX Contract.

Yes, Pacers can offer higher raises (7.5%) compared to other teams (4.5%).

While the Pacers CAN offer 5 years and higher raises, nothing says they MUST do so. They can offer Hibbert the same 4 year, 4.5% raise deal than any other team can offer. My guess though is that they would prefer to give Hibbert a 5 year non-max deal, which as Hicks says would be somewhere between $58m and $79m in total value. I'd like to think that KP and Falk are haggling over that total amount right now...

Kstat
07-01-2012, 01:07 PM
Yep way to handcuff the team bud. Let the guy walk. He's not the difference maker that we need to win it all, I do love all the "I love the pacers and this is where I want to be", what he really meant was I will stay here if the Pacers pay me the most money. Enjoy Portland/Dallas or whoever else that offers to over pay. I shall shed not one tear.

The hilarious thing about this stance is that Reggie miller did the exact same thing Roy hibbert is doing right now, and he used the Knicks of all teams as leverage to get his money.

Out of curiosity, who's that guy in your avatar?

BillS
07-01-2012, 01:11 PM
The hilarious thing about this stance is that Reggie miller did the exact same thing Roy hibbert is doing right now, and he used the Knicks of all teams as leverage to get his money.

Out of curiosity, who's that guy in your avatar?

I didn't remember Reggie ever getting an offer from NYK, he just talked to them.

PaceBalls
07-01-2012, 01:11 PM
The hilarious thing about this stance is that Reggie miller did the exact same thing Roy hibbert is doing right now, and he used the Knicks of all teams as leverage to get his money.

Out of curiosity, who's that guy in your avatar?

Yea and that episode got way out of hand. IIRC Reg was getting death threats on his home phone. It was pretty ugly. I sure am glad he stayed!

Kstat
07-01-2012, 01:12 PM
I didn't remember Reggie ever getting an offer from NYK, he just talked to them.

What do you think they were talking about?

Of course he didn't sign anything, because at that point he would have been gone. But he made it very clear that he would if the pacers didn't pay him what he wanted.

Naptown_Seth
07-01-2012, 01:12 PM
It's not really a crossroads. We match.

I disagree. If they met with Nash and could get Kaman using Hibbert money and DC then you can easily still be great, just in a new way. Lots of other PG/C combos to be had.

It's a risk to say Roy will be a max guy. If he isn't then you are screwed. I love him but massive gamble.

Strummer
07-01-2012, 01:13 PM
If Roy were a SUPERSTAR then the max we could offer would be in play. But he's not, so it's not a factor.

So our options are:

1) Let him walk
2) Offer more years, more total $, less yearly $
3) Match
4) See what Portland offers us not to match.

Option 4 comes down to one question. Do the Pacers like Meyers Leonard enough to want to spend the money on someone else? If Portland likes Roy enough to give him a max offer then they wouldn't hesitate to give up Leonard to keep us from matching. Would they give up more? Do we like Leonard's potential? These are the discussions the front office will be having.

I think option 4 is different than a sign and trade. Does the CBA disallow it?

idioteque
07-01-2012, 01:13 PM
Yea and that episode got way out of hand. IIRC Reg was getting death threats on his home phone. It was pretty ugly. I sure am glad he stayed!

With all the **** Reggie went through during that period, I wouldn't have blamed him one bit if he left.

Heisenberg
07-01-2012, 01:15 PM
If Roy were a SUPERSTAR then the max we could offer would be in play. But he's not, so it's not a factor.

So our options are:

1) Let him walk
2) Offer more years, more total $, less yearly $
3) Match
4) See what Portland offers us not to match.

Option 4 comes down to one question. Do the Pacers like Meyers Leonard enough to want to spend the money on someone else? If Portland likes Roy enough to give him a max offer then they wouldn't hesitate to give up Leonard to keep us from matching. Would they give up more? Do we like Leonard's potential? These are the discussions the front office will be having.

I think option 4 is different than a sign and trade. Does the CBA disallow it?If that's not a sign and trade then what is it? We DON'T match then Roy's not ours to trade, he's a Blazer.

Kstat
07-01-2012, 01:16 PM
If Roy were a SUPERSTAR then the max we could offer would be in play. But he's not, so it's not a factor.

...if Roy were a superstar, he'd likely take the QO this year or re-sign for 2-3 years so he could get a much bigger contract than the one he's asking for now.


Option 4 comes down to one question. Do the Pacers like Meyers Leonard enough to want to spend the money on someone else? If Portland likes Roy enough to give him a max offer then they wouldn't hesitate to give up Leonard to keep us from matching. Would they give up more? Do we like Leonard's potential? These are the discussions the front office will be having.

There are not enough facepalms in the world for this. I'm not even going to try.

yoadknux
07-01-2012, 01:17 PM
S&T him for Nash and Gortat!

Kemo
07-01-2012, 01:17 PM
Fortunately, we're not just overspending for any old center. Ours works his *** off as hard as anyone in the league to get better and stay health, ours is a P.R. dream, ours gets along with everyone he plays with, ours is a two-way center who can block shots and rebound and pass (and occasionally even shoot), ours is willing to do whatever his body allows him to do (including diving to the floor) to win.

To me, the choice is painful, but clear: Match!


+100

You forgot to add, the fact that Roy , since coming into the NBA,for the most part has gained the respect of the refs. Thus usually getting the benefit of the doubt in calls/no calls made , due to him being respectful, not complaining and being a high character player out on the floor...

Never underestimate the added value of having that asset on your team, especially when playing against teams such as Miami and the like, who are known for getting the "superstar" treatment on calls...


.

BillS
07-01-2012, 01:17 PM
Questions:

1) If RFA offer sheet signing isn't until; the 11th, can we make deals with UFAs between now and then with Roy's cap hold determining our cap space rather than with Roy's offer doing so?

2) I'm a little confused by the order of the Amick tweets - has Portland actually made the offer or are they just supposedly doing so?

3) If the Pacers match the max offer, are they required to pay max for all 5 years or is it an exact match of the 4 year contract Portland is able to match?

4) If Roy signs the offer sheet are the Pacers able to counter with their 5-year deal or at that point is the only option the match as per the answer to 4 (above)?

Responses to various comments in this thread:

1) How can it be Roy's fault that he gets an offer from another team? Even if he spoke to them first, his agent would be a fool not to set that up and he'd be dumb not to listen to his agent. Chill

2) People in the real world take less money to do the same job with another company all the time. I took a pay cut in 1984 to go to HP from Indiana Bell and haven't regretted it at all.

Heisenberg
07-01-2012, 01:19 PM
S&T him for Nash and Gortat!
can't

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q43

PR07
07-01-2012, 01:19 PM
We can't afford to lose Hibbert, and I fail to see at a skilled 7'2, that he's not a difference maker.

Sparhawk
07-01-2012, 01:21 PM
Ken Berger ‏@KBergCBS
RFA Roy Hibbert's four-year, max offer sheet from Portland is worth $58.4M. Pacers center leaning that way. Indy has three days to match.

That is to say, three days after he signs it in 10 days.

$14M/yr is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to much. Can only hope a sign and trade can work out. Hibbs sign and trade for Lillard or Myers Leonard?

Kstat
07-01-2012, 01:21 PM
Someone will need to explain how the best player on the leagues 5th best team from last season is not a difference maker. I'd love to hear the rationalization.

idioteque
07-01-2012, 01:21 PM
Kind of funny that Portland is doing this, as they got Oden just one draft before. Who would have thought they would be offering a max to the 17th pick the next year back then?

idioteque
07-01-2012, 01:23 PM
$14M/yr is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to much. Can only hope a sign and trade can work out. Hibbs sign and trade for Lillard or Myers Leonard?

When have you ever seen a team trade a first round pick like this right away? It just doesn't happen.

All NBA centers are overpaid. So few on this board seem to understand that, geez it is getting ridiculous. Of course I'd love to have Hibbert at 9 mil and George Hill at 4, but this isn't 1995. Our players are ridiculously undervalued by our fans.

Heisenberg
07-01-2012, 01:23 PM
Questions:

1) If RFA offer sheet signing isn't until; the 11th, can we make deals with UFAs between now and then with Roy's cap hold determining our cap space rather than with Roy's offer doing so?

2) I'm a little confused by the order of the Amick tweets - has Portland actually made the offer or are they just supposedly doing so?

3) If the Pacers match the max offer, are they required to pay max for all 5 years or is it an exact match of the 4 year contract Portland is able to match?

4) If Roy signs the offer sheet are the Pacers able to counter with their 5-year deal or at that point is the only option the match as per the answer to 4 (above)?

Responses to various comments in this thread:

1) How can it be Roy's fault that he gets an offer from another team? Even if he spoke to them first, his agent would be a fool not to set that up and he'd be dumb not to listen to his agent. Chill

2) People in the real world take less money to do the same job with another company all the time. I took a pay cut in 1984 to go to HP from Indiana Bell and haven't regretted it at all.

1) far as I know yes, that's exactly right

2) Joe Freeman, Portland's beat writer just tweeted this (https://twitter.com/BlazerFreeman/status/219478042664382464):

<s>#</s>Blazers‬ (https://twitter.com/search/%23Blazers) GM Neil Olshey says team "engaged in negotiations with Roy Hibbert" & will "enter into an offer sheet when moratorium period ends." Offers can't actually be made yet, teams can just talk to players until the 11th. The 11th would be when Roy signs an actual offer sheet, the 14th would be our deadline.

3) we match the exact contract. which could be good or bad, depends how Portland structures their offer.

4) Honestly not sure, I'd assume the only option is to match the offer sheet.

Also, note, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Just answering to the best of my knowledge.

Heisenberg
07-01-2012, 01:24 PM
WE CANNOT SIGN AND TRADE WITH PORTLAND

dal9
07-01-2012, 01:25 PM
hey i think we need some more posts about a sign and trade that the CBA does not allow



edit: ^ lol we both got fed up at the same time.

imbtyler
07-01-2012, 01:26 PM
Even though this JUST happened, this is already old news. Guys, we should have been preparing for this since before the season even started. Roy is a coveted player: a legit 7-foot All-Star center. Tons of teams will want to snatch him up. If the max is ~13m, then I would say go ahead with it. We need not waste any time going through with this, because we don't want the wrong message to be sent out. We should've been prepared for this.

However, if Herb isn't willing to spend, and he (in combination with KP and Walsh) just let Roy walk, I'll be pretty disappointed. Because, then, our starting center is the scrub we just drafted. I assume that's the reason we drafted Plumlee; not entirely because Roy needs a backup (because he does), but because there's a chance we lose him. And we didn't have ANYONE who would be able to step up and play center, rookie scrub or not.

idioteque
07-01-2012, 01:27 PM
WE CANNOT SIGN AND TRADE WITH PORTLAND

If it was easy as fans are making it out to be, every RFA would be signed and traded. How often does it really happen, well not that much. Even in the last CBA (I think) Walsh was lauded for S&Ting Brad Miller for Scot Pollard, that was considered a big coup that we got ANYTHING for Miller although it was only Pollard. We can't S&T Roy Hibbert any more than Hibbert could **** $100 bills out of the airplane all the way from Indy to Portland.

Sparhawk
07-01-2012, 01:27 PM
edit: ^ lol we both got fed up at the same time.

hey i think we need some more posts about a sign and trade that the CBA does not allow

Well that just plain sucks.

idioteque
07-01-2012, 01:28 PM
edit: ^ lol we both got fed up at the same time.

hey i think we need some more posts about a sign and trade that the CBA does not allow

Doesn't matter, people wouldn't read it.

dal9
07-01-2012, 01:30 PM
Oh, and it's also nice to see that the new CBA that came from the lockout managed to curb all that extraneous spending. Well worth the wait.

what the cba gave was a relatively low hard cap that puts us in a position where matching Hibbert makes it difficult to contend. this is the parity that some people wanted. unfortunately, what it does is make good drafting less relevant. you can draft the best players out there, but if they pan out, you can't pay all of them...

Nuntius
07-01-2012, 01:30 PM
Yep way to handcuff the team bud. Let the guy walk. He's not the difference maker that we need to win it all, I do love all the "I love the pacers and this is where I want to be", what he really meant was I will stay here if the Pacers pay me the most money. Enjoy Portland/Dallas or whoever else that offers to over pay. I shall shed not one tear.

Matching Hill is not necessary. We need Hibbert if we don't want to be mediocre.

notque
07-01-2012, 01:31 PM
However, if Herb isn't willing to spend, and he (in combination with KP and Walsh) just let Roy walk, I'll be pretty disappointed.

Willingness to spend has nothing to do with it. Can we all stop saying that?

This only has to do with if you think Roy is worth the max or not. It's not an obvious question. Some people will feel one way, others will feel differently.

That's fine, but it has nothing to do with willingness to spend.

wintermute
07-01-2012, 01:33 PM
WE CANNOT SIGN AND TRADE WITH PORTLAND

Uh, I think you're reading the FAQ wrong.

What Larry Coon says is that you can't S&T an RFA once he signs another team's offer sheet.

If he signs with the original team instead, then a S&T can proceed as normal.

Strummer
07-01-2012, 01:34 PM
There are not enough facepalms in the world for this. I'm not even going to try.

It's what Phoenix did when Atlanta signed Joe Johnson to an offer sheet. They threatened to match unless Atlanta gave up draft picks. Ended up with 2 first round picks even though Atlanta grossly overpaid Johnson hoping to discourage a match. Atlanta was roundly criticized at the time for overpaying AND giving up assets.

Kstat
07-01-2012, 01:36 PM
He never signed an offer sheet with Atlanta. Phoenix S&T'd him there.

FYI, Phoenix still lost the best player in that deal by far and may have cost themselves a championship or two.

Yes, Phoenix got a decent haul with Diaw and two late 1st round picks. That's still not close to what Johnson (who was just entering his prime) was worth to a contending team.

wintermute
07-01-2012, 01:42 PM
Questions:

1) If RFA offer sheet signing isn't until; the 11th, can we make deals with UFAs between now and then with Roy's cap hold determining our cap space rather than with Roy's offer doing so?

2) I'm a little confused by the order of the Amick tweets - has Portland actually made the offer or are they just supposedly doing so?

3) If the Pacers match the max offer, are they required to pay max for all 5 years or is it an exact match of the 4 year contract Portland is able to match?

4) If Roy signs the offer sheet are the Pacers able to counter with their 5-year deal or at that point is the only option the match as per the answer to 4 (above)?


1) Verbally, yes. Nothing official until 11 July. Verbal agreements are almost always honored, so it is always memorable when someone reneges on a verbal pact (cf. Boozer and Cleveland).

2) Nothing official yet. But it seems that Portland will present an offer sheet to Roy on 11 July. Nothing says that Roy must sign at that time though, just that he'll have that offer in his pocket.

3) Nope. If Roy signs the offer sheet, it becomes his next contract. The only question is whether Portland or Indiana will be paying that contract.

4) Once Roy signs, the agreement becomes binding, and the Pacers only choices at that point are to match or not match. Logically though, Roy is going to hold off on signing until all his offers are on the table. Including possibly S&T ones.

Strummer
07-01-2012, 01:43 PM
Phoenix still lost the best player in that deal by far and may have cost themselves a championship or two.

Dude, it's not about that trade. It's just a question of whether or not Portland can offer up something if we agree not to match. And if they can, would that offer coupled with spending our money else where, be a better option than re-signing Hibbert. You have to consider all your options.

wintermute
07-01-2012, 01:44 PM
He never signed an offer sheet with Atlanta. Phoenix S&T'd him there.

FYI, Phoenix still lost the best player in that deal by far and may have cost themselves a championship or two.

Yes, Phoenix got a decent haul with Diaw and two late 1st round picks. That's still not close to what Johnson (who was just entering his prime) was worth to a contending team.

Yup. And just to clarify, Phoenix agreed to a S&T because of Atlanta's threatened offer sheet, even if it wasn't actually signed by Joe Johnson. Hope that clears things up.

PacersHomer
07-01-2012, 01:45 PM
I'd like to hear the geniuses who are ready to get rid of Roy explain how not signing the current face of the franchise isn't going to hurt attendance even more. Not signing Roy would kill the franchise.

1984
07-01-2012, 01:46 PM
What is a fifth year worth? Furthermore, Roy is nota max player. What we are failing to articulate is: can we afford to lose Roy?

dal9
07-01-2012, 01:47 PM
Dude, it's not about that trade. It's just a question of whether or not Portland can offer up something if we agree not to match. And if they can, would that offer coupled with spending our money else where, be a better option than re-signing Hibbert. You have to consider all your options.

you can't offer compensation for not matching an offer sheet

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q88

you can try to do it under the table, but that didn't work out so well for Joe Smith and the T'Wolves...


also, it does look like you can sign and trade as long as Hibbert does not sign the offer sheet. But if he likes the offer sheet better than our contract offer, he has no reason NOT to sign the offer sheet.