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View Full Version : What grade would you give Larry Bird overall as GM for the Pacers



PacersPride
06-30-2012, 02:38 PM
Simple question.

I think to be fair only take into account the 2008 offseason forward. I do not give Bird credit for drafting Granger no more than i do shawn willilams.

draft picks made solely by Larry Bird include:

Rush
Hibbert
Hansbrough
George
Plumlee

* Hill trade i guess counts in some way since it was for a first.



This is an overall grade for Bird while in full control of basketball operations.

OlBlu
06-30-2012, 02:43 PM
He brought this team from oblivion to respectabilty and he did it without having to tear it down and start over....... A in my book...... He was the executive of the year for a good reason....:cool:

PacersPride
06-30-2012, 02:47 PM
My overall grade for Larry Legend is a solid B.

the reason is i believe he did a great job taking this roster from 3 seasons ago and leading us to the 5th best record in the league with potentially bright horizons.

i realize many are dissapointed in the plumlee pick. overall i think Birds draft record is solid. i agree with many that we missed on lawson or holliday. not sure why Bird does not go get this team a pg. even this year Teague seemed like a good pick to me. we do not know what moves are next.

Bird has brought in the ideal replacement i believe for this team in KP. although i still feel our FO is a cluster .. will hope for the best. either it is Simon unwilling to spend cash or Birds health is a primary reason i dont know. But overall Bird has given this team a chance to compete and if we make some solid moves this offseason could be looking at a Heat Pacers ECF.


Thanks Legend and get well!

Doddage
06-30-2012, 02:47 PM
I'll give him a B. He did a good job bringing this team back to respectability, but I think he could have done a little better with some draft picks. Passing up Jrue Holiday for Hansbrough comes to mind first.

troyc11a
06-30-2012, 02:51 PM
Simple question.

I think to be fair only take into account the 2008 offseason forward. I do not give Bird credit for drafting Granger no more than i do shawn willilams.

draft picks made solely by Larry Bird include:

Rush
Hibbert
Hansbrough
George
Plumlee

* Hill trade i guess counts in some way since it was for a first.



This is an overall grade for Bird while in full control of basketball operations.

I took the entirety of his tenure here and gave him a solid "B"! But, in reality you are probably right in that he should be judged from 2008 to present. If thats the case it is hard not to award him an "A." 4 of the 5 starters were brought in by LB, along with a strong bench. So he absolutely deserves an "A" for his work past 2008.

xtacy
06-30-2012, 02:52 PM
B becauıse of the bad draft picks.

PacersHomer
06-30-2012, 02:54 PM
B. All things considered, he took it from a franchise in the worst possible place (too good to win the lottery, too bad to make the playoffs) and made them the 3rd seed in the East that gave the eventual champs a bit of a challenge. However, he did extend one of the worst head coaches to ever exist, drafted Hansbrough over the multitude of good point guards, James White, Brandon Rush, Shawne Williams. He wasn't very good at drafting. But damnit if we didn't get better, and that Murphy for Collison trade was highway robbery.

PacersPride
06-30-2012, 02:58 PM
we can focus solely on draft picks.. i think overall his record is solid there. we will see how Plumlee turns out and that will sway it some no doubt.. but its also the 26th pick. interesting to see how the other players in this draft that we coulda have taken turn it out there as well.

Bayless netted us Rush and mcbob along with jack.

Acquiring Hibbert was a great move. i think even bird naysayers will agree with that one.

hansbrough.. dissapoiting year for him last season, think he will figure it out.. but still holliday, lawson are very good players.

Paul George is the only top 10 pick Bird has had and that made good. many of us would not trade Paul for Gordon.. im one of those individuals .. and i wanted to see Gordon in a pacers jersey as much as the next fan.

Trading the 15th for Hill last offseason i def say was a solid move , just hoping we can keep Hill here.

Plumlee, i will be pretty honest have not seen the guy play much .. not a duke fan, but i have a good feel for the game and realize this kid did not produce at duke in 4 years. on paper the kid sounds like a great pickup, atheletic, 7 ft, rebounds, plays tough but also very raw and perhaps lacking bb iq.

again its the 26th pick and i woulda been really content with Teague from Kentucky. just gotta see how it plays out. overall though, most of Birds moves produced solid nba talented players. even hansbrough has a good chance at someday becoming a 6th man of the year candidate. i didnt say win it.

vnzla81
06-30-2012, 02:59 PM
C because of all the wasted draft picks, not only that but we paid over a 100 mil for scrubs to either play with us or stay At home, letting contracts expire was his biggest contribution, staying with the clown of JOB for so long makes me give him a C- in my book.

BillS
06-30-2012, 03:03 PM
Voted A but actually an A- due to some draft stumbles.

Unlike many I don't take away a lot of points for the JOB situation because the perfect time for a new coach would have been the beginning of this past season. I think if JOB is gone before the 2010-2011 season we don't get Vogel as head coach AND we don't get a particularly strong coach, either. LJB was trying to extend the current situation to finish out the year, which failed on court but ultimately did what was needed which was to have something fresh when the cap space started to be available.

PacersPride
06-30-2012, 03:07 PM
C because of all the wasted draft picks, not only that but we paid over a 100 mil for scrubs to either play with us or stay At home, letting contracts expire was his biggest contribution, staying with the clown of JOB for so long makes me give him a C- in my book.

so you are giving excecutive of the year a C. your gonna have to do better than that if possible.

"C because of all the wasted draft picks"

which draft picks.. you cannot count Plumlee until you see him in a pacers uniform. give the kid 20 games to prove you wrong. other than that what picks are you referring to.. 2nd rounds???

Secondly,

"staying with the clown of JOB for so long makes me give him a C- in my book"

who were we going to get to coach this team when Carlisle retired. SVG turned us down. no one wanted to coach here. that goes into the extension as well.

How can you give Exec of the year a C. it makes very little sense to me.

PacersPride
06-30-2012, 03:10 PM
Voted A but actually an A- due to some draft stumbles.

Unlike many I don't take away a lot of points for the JOB situation because the perfect time for a new coach would have been the beginning of this past season. I think if JOB is gone before the 2010-2011 season we don't get Vogel as head coach AND we don't get a particularly strong coach, either. LJB was trying to extend the current situation to finish out the year, which failed on court but ultimately did what was needed which was to have something fresh when the cap space started to be available.

I thanked you for this post and want to emphasize it here. It is simply amazing how many pacers fans simply do not realize this. Thank you.

Steagles
06-30-2012, 03:22 PM
B. Hansbrough over Holiday, Plumlee ruined the A. Its a solid, high B, but a B nonetheless.

Lance George
06-30-2012, 03:24 PM
A solid B. He's turned us into a solid team with some promise, but we're still lacking that top-tier talent, and are closer to the new Atlanta Hawks than a legitimate championship contender.

vnzla81
06-30-2012, 03:40 PM
so you are giving excecutive of the year a C. your gonna have to do better than that if possible.

"C because of all the wasted draft picks"

which draft picks.. you cannot count Plumlee until you see him in a pacers uniform. give the kid 20 games to prove you wrong. other than that what picks are you referring to.. 2nd rounds???

Secondly,

"staying with the clown of JOB for so long makes me give him a C- in my book"

who were we going to get to coach this team when Carlisle retired. SVG turned us down. no one wanted to coach here. that goes into the extension as well.

How can you give Exec of the year a C. it makes very little sense to me.

Yes I'm giving a C to "Legend" as you call him, he is lucky this past season was successful or we could be talking about giving him a D.

Jeremy
06-30-2012, 03:40 PM
I give him a B overall. Hibbert was a nice pick but he did mess up big time with Brandon Rush.

OlBlu
06-30-2012, 03:42 PM
B. Hansbrough over Holiday, Plumlee ruined the A. Its a solid, high B, but a B nonetheless.

I think Plumlee will be a fan favorite ala McBrick. Thuderous dunks, good rebounding and lots of hustle.........:cool:

Sollozzo
06-30-2012, 03:44 PM
C because of all the wasted draft picks


Which ones were wasted?

Granger in 05 wasn't wasted. Hibbert wasn't wasted. PG wasn't wasted. Trading last year's pick for George Hill wasn't wasted. And don't you like Hans?

Shawne Williams over Rondo was definitely a waste, but 18 other GM's wish they could have that one back as well. Aside from Rondo, virtually everyone taken after Williams was also a scrub, so it's not like we left a ton of stud players on the board. It was only Rondo. Stuff like that happens when you are a GM for a long enough time. Walsh picked George McLoud over Tim Hardaway, Shawn Kemp, Mookie Blaylock, and Dana Barros. He also picked Bender over Wally, Rip Hamilton, Andre Miller, Shawn Marion (whose idol was Reggie), and Jason Terry.

"All of the wasted draft picks" implies that there were many, but the facts don't back that claim up.

PacersPride
06-30-2012, 03:47 PM
Yes I'm giving a C to "Legend" as you call him, he is lucky this past season was successful or we could be talking about giving him a D.


which wasted draft picks are you referrring too ????? can you back up any of the statements you make with some sort of reasoning.

Yes I call him Larry Legend for a good reason.

3 time nba champion, coach of the year, exec of the year. whats your track record.

xBulletproof
06-30-2012, 03:55 PM
I am guessing by wasted he means there was a better player picked later he wanted Larry to pick.

Problem with that is you could play that game with any GM in history and use that against him. It's inevitable but some people expect perfection.

PacersPride
06-30-2012, 04:04 PM
I am guessing by wasted he means there was a better player picked later he wanted Larry to pick.

Problem with that is you could play that game with any GM in history and use that against him. It's inevitable but some people expect perfection.

yes but by wasted i infer a bust. such as a darko milicic or something along those lines.

rush, hibbert, hansbrough, george, price, hill, jarrett jack, mcboob are all nba players.. not wasted picks to acquire these players. and like you said, not every gm is going to hit every pick. most gms would be satified with 50% probably.

all im sayin is wasted implies the player was garbage or something. how many of the lottery players even make it in this league or ever live up to the hype.

LG33
06-30-2012, 04:29 PM
F for favorable.

vnzla81
06-30-2012, 04:35 PM
Wasted picks by Larry Bird(and company) that I can remember:

James White, S Williams, Jarred Bayless, Tyler Hansbrough(and I like him), Plummet, Lance, AJ Price, David Harrison.

Good picks: Roy, Danny, Paul George, 3 good picks in a long long time, I'm also waiting to see if we keep Hill, there is possibility of another wasted pick if he leaves.

Ratking
06-30-2012, 04:38 PM
Id give bird a B+/A-

PROs: I think he has stuck to a clear plan to create one of the least confrontational locker-rooms in the NBA, and it got us to where we are now. He has been very patient in creating an identity for our team, and that identity has put us in the position to be near the top of the East for some time, if patience and discipline ensue.

CONs: Too afraid of taking chances on players with a little edge and baggage. See 2012 Draft: PJ-III would have been the better pick, but I think Bird has some deep-seated biases against players that remind him of the 2004 roster. It leaves us with a team of passive-aggressives in the clutch, reactives vs. proactives. Judging by the latest ESPN article on PJ-III and his thoughts on falling to the Thunder, this guy sounds like he would have been perfect on our team. I dont care what his relatives tweeted before the draft regarding spare tickets (shame on you Bill Simmons). It sounds like his perceived "lack of motor" is actually just being a team player. Stephenson stands out as an exception to this: Bird seems to love the kid despite some past bad decisions.

In summary, Bird is too afraid of swag.

Im thinking Plumlee might work out well for us this season, but I wouldn't be surprised if the FO regrets passing PJ-III as early as next summer.

LG33
06-30-2012, 04:40 PM
Wasted picks by Larry Bird(and company) that I can remember:

James White, S Williams, Jarred Bayless, Tyler Hansbrough(and I like him), Plummet, Lance, AJ Price, David Harrison.


I agree with you on this one. If you can't find value at the 52th pick, then you clearly don't know what you're doing.

xBulletproof
06-30-2012, 04:47 PM
Wasted picks by Larry Bird(and company) that I can remember:

James White, S Williams, Jarred Bayless, Tyler Hansbrough(and I like him), Plummet, Lance, AJ Price, David Harrison.

Good picks: Roy, Danny, Paul George, 3 good picks in a long long time, I'm also waiting to see if we keep Hill, there is possibility of another wasted pick if he leaves.

If this doesn't prove my point, nothing will.

You seem to think it's so easy. God I would love to see you be a GM of a team so I could watch it burn. You clearly have no idea what to expect from picks outside the top 5 in the NBA.

vnzla81
06-30-2012, 04:52 PM
I agree with you on this one. If you can't find value at the 52th pick, then you clearly don't know what you're doing.

That doesn't change the fact that he was a waste of a pick he sucks not only that but we gave him a long term contract.

I agree that getting anything that high is great but the question was "who do I think were the wasted picks"? And AJ Price was a pick that was wasted in my opinion, not a big deal but it was a wasted pick nontheless.

joew8302
06-30-2012, 04:55 PM
It is tough to give him a grade giving all we don't know. Was the Jackson trade a "Bird move"? Drafting Harrison? etc..

vnzla81
06-30-2012, 04:56 PM
If this doesn't prove my point, nothing will.

You seem to think it's so easy. God I would love to see you be a GM of a team so I could watch it burn. You clearly have no idea what to expect from picks outside the top 5 in the NBA.

Aren't you the same guy that was crying two nights ago about the Plummet's pick? Do you think you can do a better job as a GM? It's not easy to be a GM you know? LEAVE LARRY ALONE!!!!!

You see? I can do the same thing back at you, must be nice to have a high horse.

xBulletproof
06-30-2012, 05:00 PM
Aren't you the same guy that was crying two nights ago about the Plummet's pick? Do you think you can do a better job as a GM? It's not easy to be a GM you know? LEAVE LARRY ALONE!!!!!

You see? I can do the same thing back at you, must be nice to have a high horse.

Who's Plummet?

And I complained because there was a top 5-10 talent falling, and available at the end of the first round. As a team that will struggle to lure a star player, it was a chance at one that we won't get very often. You take that chance.

That wasn't true of all of the petty picks you're complaining about.

LG33
06-30-2012, 05:02 PM
That doesn't change the fact that he was a waste of a pick he sucks not only that but we gave him a long term contract.

I agree that getting anything that high is great but the question was "who do I think were the wasted picks"? And AJ Price was a pick that was wasted in my opinion, not a big deal but it was a wasted pick nontheless.

Oh, I understand now. You just don't know what wasted means.

The undrafted Wes Matthews turned out pretty good, but otherwise we didn't really miss on anything big. Are you an Alonzo Gee fan?

vnzla81
06-30-2012, 05:05 PM
Who's Plummet?

And I complained because there was a top 5-10 talent falling, and available at the end of the first round. As a team that will struggle to lure a star player, it was a chance at one that we won't get very often. You take that chance.

That wasn't true of all of the petty picks you're complaining about.

So you can complaint because you think that there were more talented players but I can't even though I have the evidence that better players were there for the take? OK then.....

aaronb
06-30-2012, 05:05 PM
I give him a D overall.

He did have a good year draft to lockout through last season. So that raises his stock from out and out failure.

However while people love to cherry pick and point fingers anywhere other than Bird. Bottom line is he came here in 2003 when this roster was arguably the best in the NBA. After the Brawl happened he basically sat on his thumbs and collected a check for doing nothing.

He's had exactly 1 winning season in the 7 since the Brawl went down. And though many here will never admit it. This is a limited roster that isn't positioned to win anything. All the magic cap space we waited for goes away after Hibbert resigns.

Donnie Walsh is 50x's the executive that Larry Bird has ever been. LB is on the Rushmore Player-GM list right behind Danny Ainge, Even with Kevin McHale and better only than Jordan and Isiah.

If he was a native Texan as opposed to a Hoosier. Most of yall would think he was the worst thing that ever happened to this franchise.

xBulletproof
06-30-2012, 05:08 PM
So you can complaint because you think that there were more talented players but I can't even though I have the evidence that better players were there for the take? OK then.....

Rarely does a team pick at 10-20 range and there ISN'T a player that ends up better in the NBA picked later. Every GM in the NBA just sucks I guess.

Your expectations just aren't based in reality. Ever.

LG33
06-30-2012, 05:10 PM
I'll say this for Larry, a lot of the other small markets (Milwaukee, Detroit, Minnesota, Charlotte, Toronto, Sacramento) and a few larger markets (New York, LAC) did much worse with much better opportunities. Could he have done better? Sure. I'm happy to be where we are now considering where we were just five years ago.

xBulletproof
06-30-2012, 05:11 PM
aaronb is hilarious.

So, Walsh made a complete mess of things, and Bird cleaned it up after he left. That means Walsh is 50x better!

:laugh:

aaronb
06-30-2012, 05:13 PM
Just a refresher of how people outside of Indiana view his tenure.

http://www.sbnation.com/2010/7/22/1582380/nba-general-manager-rankings-pat-riley-heat

aaronb
06-30-2012, 05:16 PM
Walsh built this team to be a perennial contender of 15 years.

Bird had 1 winning season in 7 freaking years.

You tell me who has the better track record.....

If Bird wasn't a local icon, he would have been fired 3-4 years ago. If he wasn't a local icon people on message boards wouldn't look for any little excuse to pass the blame elsewhere for his shortcomings.

vnzla81
06-30-2012, 05:19 PM
Rarely does a team pick at 10-20 range and there ISN'T a player that ends up better in the NBA picked later. Every GM in the NBA just sucks I guess.

Your expectations just aren't based in reality. Ever.

So your expectation in drafting a better guy than Plumlee at 26th is reality? I guess you should be the GM if you are that good then .....

IndyPacer
06-30-2012, 05:58 PM
Just a refresher of how people outside of Indiana view his tenure.

http://www.sbnation.com/2010/7/22/1582380/nba-general-manager-rankings-pat-riley-heat

That is a bit dated. Try this one:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7938330/indiana-pacers-larry-bird-named-nba-executive-year

IndyPacer
06-30-2012, 06:12 PM
Wasted picks by Larry Bird(and company) that I can remember:

James White, S Williams, Jarred Bayless, Tyler Hansbrough(and I like him), Plummet, Lance, AJ Price, David Harrison.

Good picks: Roy, Danny, Paul George, 3 good picks in a long long time, I'm also waiting to see if we keep Hill, there is possibility of another wasted pick if he leaves.

So by "good" one has to either be an All-Star of have strong All-Star potential? Granger and Hibbert have been All-Stars. George can be in the future barring health problems. No team drafts All-Stars every time. Sometimes you need role players and specialists, especially with late picks. And every team picks players that don't stick in the league at all. Some of the "wasted" picks were in the second round and late first round. Your expectations are absurd. You may have tried to present Bird in an unfavorable light, but what you've actually done is make yourself look like a clown.

rm1369
06-30-2012, 06:55 PM
I gave Bird a C for all of the things we know were his decisions. Many of my issues with Bird have to do with his philosophy - its too conservative and I don't believe will lead to a contender and definetly not a title. The starless team approach I think will ultimately fail. It has worked only once in the NBA and, IMO, that team was significantly more talented than the Pacers. The Pistons starters, IMO, were better at at least 4 of the starting positions. Teams like this will prove to be extremely hard to keep together and improve upon because everyone will want to get paid. We'll start to see how everything works out as the rookie contracts begins to expire this year.

Bad:

- drafting Shawne Williams - passed on Rondo & Lowry for a SF when the team already had DG and Dun at that spot. And it was obvious Tinsley wasn't a long term answer at PG. And yes, Rondo and Lowry are who I posted that I wanted (not hindsight)

- James White - giving him a guaranteed contract and then cutting him

- drafting Tyler Hansbrough - passed on Holiday. And again, I posted that I wanted Holiday (no hindsight here)

- JOB - you can spin it however you want, but JOB was a FAILURE. I understand that there were not coaches knocking down the door to take over the team, but there are young guys that would have taken a chance to make there mark (like a Vogel). Instead we hired a bad fit for our supposed identity. And the worse part is that he kept him. The spin is BS, because the team never turned around under JOB, so it's not like he made them good enough that someone wanted them - Vogel would have taken over at any point. Now I'm not suggesting that it was obvious Vogel should have been given a chance. It's actually quite the opposite. I'm arguing that someone should have been given a chance and the fact that Vogel surprisingly turned out to be a good coach is an extremely lucky situation that saved Birds ***. If Herb doesn't push Bird to fire JOB mid season, Vogel is never the coach of this team. And we'd still have had a poor team looking at a either JOB or a new retread coach.

- general neglect of the PG position - Bird has continued to parade a bunch of mediocre PG through the team while neglecting to address the position long term through the draft. IMO, PG play is invaluable to the starless type team he is attempting to build. Because you don't have a star to bail you out, execution becomes even more critical - both offensively and defensively. Hill is just another mediocre stop gap. One that will very likely end up over paid.

Good:

- drafting Granger - it was luck he dropped and an obvious pick, but you see by the plumlee pick, that Bird doesn't always do the obvious. Regardless, he got it right.

- drafting Hibbert - I didn't have a strong feeling one way or the other on Hibbert. I did think he was a waste if Bird kept JOB, but that was my only feeling.

- drafting George - I agreed with the pick. I'm still think Bird would have taken Hayward if he was available. Not because he's white (calm down!), but because he was a senior on a winner and was a local kid for good measure. Can you honestly tell me that doesn't sound like a Bird pick. Again regardless of what I think may have happened, Bird got it right.

- targeting and going to get James White - I listed the contract as a negative, but I liked the decisive, aggressive approach to getting him. He was wrong, but I did like that he didn't just wait for something to happen in this case.

- taking a chance on Lance - regardless of whether or not he pans out, I like that he took a chance. If he turns in to something, it has much more impact than a failure would. The same thing applies to the Plumlee pick and that's why I hated the pick.

- signing West - I didn't want West unless he came cheap. He did - good signing.

- not screwing up our cap space - I give Bird no credit for "creating cap space" and I certainly think its arguable that he could have been more creative with it. I will admit that I was fearful that he would go sign a bunch do D Jones to try to compete.

There are a lot of moves that are just "Meh":

- trading JO - it was obvious and should have been done much, much sooner.

- trading for DC - I don't like DCs game at all. He is decent value for Murphy, but the continued neglect of the PG position keeps me from considering it good. DC is nothing more than another mediocre stop gap.

- trading for Jarett Jack - I liked him better than DC, but he wasn't kept, so he doesn't matter.

- trading for Hill - I almost listed this as a negative. It's not because we didn't get value for the pick, it's because the continue neglect of the position, IMO, made Bird trade the pick. The problem is that now Hill must be paid and he will likely make to much to a bench player, yet he won't be good enough to solidify the position. We will still be looking for an upgrade (or at least should be). And if he's not resigned its a waste.

For me the tipping point is the Hansbrough draft. If Bird drafts Holiday, there is no need for the Hill trade, so you have another young cheap player. Then you take PJ3, Moultrie, or Teague. Resign Hibbert and now you have a stable of talented young players to deal from if necessary. You have guys with the dreaded P word - potential. You can either let them grow together or trade them (like Boston did). Ultimatly Bird gets a C from me cause he took the easy way out, IMO. Yes we are no longer an embarrassment, but I don't believe we are sitting nearly as pretty as many on here believe. Once we resign our guys, we will be the Atlanta Hawks. Bird passed, but he certainly didn't excel IMO.

PacersPride
06-30-2012, 07:15 PM
It is tough to give him a grade giving all we don't know. Was the Jackson trade a "Bird move"? Drafting Harrison? etc..


I stated only consider Bird as the President of Basketball Operations after Donnie Walsh left. I dont know who is to blame for the failures when Walsh/Bird were a duo. But i do know the brawl changed everything. im not going into it any further than that right now. basically, just evaluate Bird post Walsh. Much easier that way.




I give him a D overall.


He's had exactly 1 winning season in the 7 since the Brawl went down. And though many here will never admit it. This is a limited roster that isn't positioned to win anything. All the magic cap space we waited for goes away after Hibbert resigns.


If he was a native Texan as opposed to a Hoosier. Most of yall would think he was the worst thing that ever happened to this franchise.

aaronb i know you will never change your view on Bird. its dissalusioned by the Walsh/Bird era. I am asking you to only judge his time as the CEO of basketball decisions. i place 51% of the blame on Walsh and 49% on Bird for what the Franchise had become after the brawl.

I am not going to be biased though. Bird has made mistakes, mainly not finding this team a pg. but overall he has made more good decisions than bad. i really do not know the reason Bird is really leaving. maybe he had a vision of pursuing RFA Gordon, or spending past the luxury.. who knows. Bird did not finish the job, only reason i cannot give him an A. but if this team wins one in the next 3 seasons with this core he should get some of the credit. anyways, the FO is a cluster right now. thats for another thread.

this roster is one key player away.. and Bird knows it im guessing. still he left us with a good solid core of players, and that is exactly what the Executive of the year said he would do in 3 seasons.




Walsh built this team to be a perennial contender of 15 years.

Bird had 1 winning season in 7 freaking years.

You tell me who has the better track record.....

If Bird wasn't a local icon, he would have been fired 3-4 years ago. If he wasn't a local icon people on message boards wouldn't look for any little excuse to pass the blame elsewhere for his shortcomings.

When Walsh retired Bird was given the opportunity as CEO and you grade him as a D from that point forward. Please for discussion purposes. What is it that Bird has done since taking over in 08 that you believe could have led us to more wins this previous season?

i will agree with you on some draft picks. but overall the trades have all been very good. and look at the roster from 08 and tell me who we had that anyone really wanted.

Post brawl, this team had to be blown up. Every pacer fan knows it. Bird has got this team back to contending status.

how many years has the wolves, nuggets, clippers, so on sucked .. a decade or more. we had a great run under Donnnie Walsh and respect him and still do. The brawl team would of had us contending for 20 years. unheard of.

all this is common knowledge, i wonder if you are missing some aaronb with all due respect. please just evaluate Bird post Walsh era. Why a D .. i would love to hear this.??

xBulletproof
06-30-2012, 07:17 PM
Just a refresher of how people outside of Indiana view his tenure.

http://www.sbnation.com/2010/7/22/1582380/nba-general-manager-rankings-pat-riley-heat

Uh, let me correct this. This is what ONE guy outside of Indiana thought TWO years ago. You always claim it's a local Indiana thing, when the fact of the matter is I'm not old enough to remember any of that, and nor do I care. It has nothing to do with that to most people.


So your expectation in drafting a better guy than Plumlee at 26th is reality? I guess you should be the GM if you are that good then .....

My expectation is taking a guy with top 5 potential if he's there at the end of the 1st round. You think you're funny and make some sense but you don't. There's a huge difference between complaining about a single draft choice where a potential elite talent fell to you, and what you're doing. Not that being illogical has ever stopped you before.

Pacers
06-30-2012, 07:39 PM
I think if this poll would have been posted four days ago, it would look very, VERY different.

PacersPride
06-30-2012, 08:03 PM
I gave Bird a C for all of the things we know were his decisions. Many of my issues with Bird have to do with his philosophy - its too conservative and I don't believe will lead to a contender and definetly not a title. The starless team approach I think will ultimately fail. It has worked only once in the NBA and, IMO, that team was significantly more talented than the Pacers. The Pistons starters, IMO, were better at at least 4 of the starting positions. Teams like this will prove to be extremely hard to keep together and improve upon because everyone will want to get paid. We'll start to see how everything works out as the rookie contracts begins to expire this year.


* agree with you his philosophy was conservative. at the same time what did Bird really have to work with. we were up against the cap. and our highest paid players all sucked thanks to the murphleavy and jo contracts basically unmovable. so im not really sure what more any other GM coulda have done except take on more bad contracts which he did not. coulda easily made risky deals and traded draft picks. instead he was patient and have us in a position to be major players this FA period. what more could we ask for. we may not acquire D Williams or Nash but Im betting we will sign a FA along with Hibbert. The core team is assembled.

** not sure if everyone realizes this but not every team in the NBA is going to have a superdreamteam. better get used to it. therefore the way we are building the team is going to allow us to compete as a Team. there will be no other way to win. Bird has accomplised that. Hibbert, Paul George, will be the core of the team. With vets like West and Hill. we are one player away from competing and its the only reason again Bird does not get an A. I was very excited about FA with a Bird/KP duo.






Bad:

- drafting Shawne Williams - passed on Rondo & Lowry for a SF when the team already had DG and Dun at that spot. And it was obvious Tinsley wasn't a long term answer at PG. And yes, Rondo and Lowry are who I posted that I wanted (not hindsight)

- James White - giving him a guaranteed contract and then cutting him

- drafting Tyler Hansbrough - passed on Holiday. And again, I posted that I wanted Holiday (no hindsight here)

- JOB - you can spin it however you want, but JOB was a FAILURE. I understand that there were not coaches knocking down the door to take over the team, but there are young guys that would have taken a chance to make there mark (like a Vogel). Instead we hired a bad fit for our supposed identity. And the worse part is that he kept him. The spin is BS, because the team never turned around under JOB, so it's not like he made them good enough that someone wanted them - Vogel would have taken over at any point. Now I'm not suggesting that it was obvious Vogel should have been given a chance. It's actually quite the opposite. I'm arguing that someone should have been given a chance and the fact that Vogel surprisingly turned out to be a good coach is an extremely lucky situation that saved Birds ***. If Herb doesn't push Bird to fire JOB mid season, Vogel is never the coach of this team. And we'd still have had a poor team looking at a either JOB or a new retread coach.

- general neglect of the PG position - Bird has continued to parade a bunch of mediocre PG through the team while neglecting to address the position long term through the draft. IMO, PG play is invaluable to the starless type team he is attempting to build. Because you don't have a star to bail you out, execution becomes even more critical - both offensively and defensively. Hill is just another mediocre stop gap. One that will very likely end up over paid.


you make solid points. i very much repect your opiniion although i disagree in some aspects. still its much better than "bird just got lucky this past season."

i will agree, bird has failed to land a pg. and with this style of play and winning as a team, we need a Chauncey Billiups type pg. or a Rondo.. who Bird might have got had CP3 been dealt to the celtics.

but yes, we missed on Holliday, not sure what it is about Bird not getting us a pg, or even one that has potential to become our teams pg. i like collison but more as a backup. here in Indiana we like pg's who are leaders and floor generals. we need one.

was walsh still here while williams was drafted. if so i really do not know who made the pick.. same with granger. as far white, not a big deal, just a second rounder.

the Obriend ordeal, ive beat senseless. not going into great detail b/c that is a thread on its own. but im not so sure vogel saved birds ***. you may be right that Bird was told from Simon to let Obrien go, I just believe it would have been done anyways after last season.

bottom line with that is Bird got us to a position to attract a top flight coach. alas Brian Shaw in an associate role.


There are a lot of moves that are just "Meh":

- trading JO - it was obvious and should have been done much, much sooner.

- trading for DC - I don't like DCs game at all. He is decent value for Murphy, but the continued neglect of the PG position keeps me from considering it good. DC is nothing more than another mediocre stop gap.

- trading for Jarett Jack - I liked him better than DC, but he wasn't kept, so he doesn't matter.

- trading for Hill - I almost listed this as a negative. It's not because we didn't get value for the pick, it's because the continue neglect of the position, IMO, made Bird trade the pick. The problem is that now Hill must be paid and he will likely make to much to a bench player, yet he won't be good enough to solidify the position. We will still be looking for an upgrade (or at least should be). And if he's not resigned its a waste.

For me the tipping point is the Hansbrough draft. If Bird drafts Holiday, there is no need for the Hill trade, so you have another young cheap player. Then you take PJ3, Moultrie, or Teague. Resign Hibbert and now you have a stable of talented young players to deal from if necessary. You have guys with the dreaded P word - potential. You can either let them grow together or trade them (like Boston did). Ultimatly Bird gets a C from me cause he took the easy way out, IMO. Yes we are no longer an embarrassment, but I don't believe we are sitting nearly as pretty as many on here believe. Once we resign our guys, we will be the Atlanta Hawks. Bird passed, but he certainly didn't excel IMO.


JO probably should have been traded sooner but Bird got it done pretty much right away that first offseason in charge.

I do no think Bird walked on water when he took over post Walsh.. but i do believe he did what he said he would. to get this team back to a chance to compete for championships.

i do believe he has done that and we are one player away from contending for a Trophy. Hopefully KP is in charge while Bird recovers. Walsh is a very good GM so i trust him as well - we could do much worse than Walsh/KP.

Bird has the Franchise in a position to compete. i know there are many comparisons to the hawks but i dont think that is as bad people make it out.. al horford is a very good player and was out most of last season.

bottom line this team is a good position w Bird guiding the ship these past three seasons. Bird should of been given 3 years to succeed and he did. thats why he has the Executive of the Year Award.. its says something.

Legend did not walk on water but did a solid job turning the Franchise around.

great post. appreciate the response. limited on time but look forward to your response.

vnzla81
06-30-2012, 08:28 PM
My expectation is taking a guy with top 5 potential if he's there at the end of the 1st round. You think you're funny and make some sense but you don't. There's a huge difference between complaining about a single draft choice where a potential elite talent fell to you, and what you're doing. Not that being illogical has ever stopped you before.

Got it, if you disagree with a pick you have the right to complaint because you are just that good and if I disagree with a pick I'm not supposed to complaint unless I get your permission........ Top five potential :lol:

:highhorse:

Sollozzo
06-30-2012, 08:40 PM
Wasted picks by Larry Bird(and company) that I can remember:

James White, S Williams, Jarred Bayless, Tyler Hansbrough(and I like him), Plummet, Lance, AJ Price, David Harrison.



White, Lance, and AJ Price were freaking second round picks. Second round picks rarely become good players...that's why they were picked in the second round. David Harrison was the last pick of the first round. Look at all of the guys picked in the second round behind him. It was Varejo, Ariza, and a bunch of guys who probably never played substantial time in the NBA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_NBA_Draft

It's telling that most of the guys you have a problem with were second round picks or David Harrison who was picked last in the first round. The fact is, Bird hasn't wasted many valuable early first round picks.

aaronb
06-30-2012, 10:01 PM
I stated only consider Bird as the President of Basketball Operations after Donnie Walsh left. I dont know who is to blame for the failures when Walsh/Bird were a duo. But i do know the brawl changed everything. im not going into it any further than that right now. basically, just evaluate Bird post Walsh. Much easier that way.





aaronb i know you will never change your view on Bird. its dissalusioned by the Walsh/Bird era. I am asking you to only judge his time as the CEO of basketball decisions. i place 51% of the blame on Walsh and 49% on Bird for what the Franchise had become after the brawl.

I am not going to be biased though. Bird has made mistakes, mainly not finding this team a pg. but overall he has made more good decisions than bad. i really do not know the reason Bird is really leaving. maybe he had a vision of pursuing RFA Gordon, or spending past the luxury.. who knows. Bird did not finish the job, only reason i cannot give him an A. but if this team wins one in the next 3 seasons with this core he should get some of the credit. anyways, the FO is a cluster right now. thats for another thread.

this roster is one key player away.. and Bird knows it im guessing. still he left us with a good solid core of players, and that is exactly what the Executive of the year said he would do in 3 seasons.





When Walsh retired Bird was given the opportunity as CEO and you grade him as a D from that point forward. Please for discussion purposes. What is it that Bird has done since taking over in 08 that you believe could have led us to more wins this previous season?

i will agree with you on some draft picks. but overall the trades have all been very good. and look at the roster from 08 and tell me who we had that anyone really wanted.

Post brawl, this team had to be blown up. Every pacer fan knows it. Bird has got this team back to contending status.

how many years has the wolves, nuggets, clippers, so on sucked .. a decade or more. we had a great run under Donnnie Walsh and respect him and still do. The brawl team would of had us contending for 20 years. unheard of.

all this is common knowledge, i wonder if you are missing some aaronb with all due respect. please just evaluate Bird post Walsh era. Why a D .. i would love to hear this.??


Just evaluating post 2008 totally absolves him for 5 years of suck prior. He came here after 2003 and took the job of President of Basketball Operations. This job description is " in charge of all roster and coaching decisions"

So I just don't buy that you give Larry a pass though the worst decisions of his tenure. He was awful after the Brawl. He was similarly awful for every season before last year. I just don't accept that he becomes immune to a decade of **** direction because we have a winning season on his way out the door.

Billy King and Isaiah Thomas could have done just as ****** if given 10 years to suck without repercussions.

troyc11a
06-30-2012, 11:05 PM
White, Lance, and AJ Price were freaking second round picks. Second round picks rarely become good players...that's why they were picked in the second round. David Harrison was the last pick of the first round. Look at all of the guys picked in the second round behind him. It was Varejo, Ariza, and a bunch of guys who probably never played substantial time in the NBA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_NBA_Draft

It's telling that most of the guys you have a problem with were second round picks or David Harrison who was picked last in the first round. The fact is, Bird hasn't wasted many valuable early first round picks.

The entire starting lineup and first 2 players off the bench were brought in by Bird. He has done a great job and we should be grateful to him for it. The only people on here who bash him are guys who were Dr. J fans and still hold a grudge that Bird showed him up!

aaronb
06-30-2012, 11:28 PM
The entire starting lineup and first 2 players off the bench were brought in by Bird. He has done a great job and we should be grateful to him for it. The only people on here who bash him are guys who were Dr. J fans and still hold a grudge that Bird showed him up!


Bird was on the job for a decade. Who the hell stays anywhere for that long? Some fans are such schmucks that they would literally cheer if Larry took a dump at half court.

vnzla81
06-30-2012, 11:35 PM
Bird was on the job for a decade. Who the hell stays anywhere for that long? Some fans are such schmucks that they would literally cheer if Larry took a dump at half court.

:laugh:

Cactus Jax
06-30-2012, 11:37 PM
That dump would have slowed Lebron down better than any of our players. It may have come from the McDonalds fries he stole.

Bball
07-01-2012, 12:33 AM
Every decision that was made while Walsh was here had to go thru Walsh for his approval or WAS Walsh's idea. It's impossible to judge Bird on those years because it's impossible to know what limitations were placed on him either directly or indirectly. And it's just common sense to know that Bird would not have pushed for something that he knows Walsh wouldn't have liked because Bird didn't have that kind of freedom.

What is telling is how differently things were done after Walsh left.

Either Bird suddenly had more freedom to do things his way, or he felt he did.

That said- JOB sucked and lasted too long. Lester Conner should've taken over to begin with before we even got to the point we did. No way should JOB have been extended. That's on Bird and that was bad. He'd get an F here.

I think the Hans pick is starting to smell like a bust. It would've been telling to see how Bird handled that this year- Would he make a move and fix that mistake before it became an open sore, or stand loyal with 'his guy' and hope for a rebound from him this season? Gotta say this one gets an incomplete.

Turning JO into Hibbert has to be an A.

Getting rid of Murphy for DC wasn't bad either. B. Could still be an A if we had a more dynamic SF or SG to help DC out on offense.

Not sure about letting Dunleavey just expire. C to C- there.

The McRoberts handling is a C. From blown trade that he apparently didn't keep a close enough eye on to letting him walk without considering Foster's health and how that would impact frontcourt depth. Let alone Hans' game slipping this season.

West signing was huge I think. A+. West brought the team a veteran presence that was both respected and had game. And he didn't break the bank.

George Hill trade. Incomplete. We need this season to know if it was a rental that wasted a pick, or a player that is proving too costly versus some of our other options we passed on to get to this point.

End of season drama and dysfunction that Bird brought at the end of every season- C. Tempted to say D. Let's go C- on it. Probably didn't affect too much but was needless silliness and this season's more than normal.

Barbosa went from A to D in the playoffs. Seemed like a good move to begin with and then went south. I'm gonna say B- on that one. Obviously there was some good. And it's questionable how Vogel used him (as opposed to just giving him a seat when his game wasn't working) in the playoffs. But it was an attempt to address a weakness at the trade deadline. It's not like it hurt and I'm not sure there was any other legitimate option.

I don't know what that averages out to be... Hick's is the one with the education background so maybe he'll tell me what all that adds up to! ;)

aaronb
07-01-2012, 12:49 AM
Every decision that was made while Walsh was here had to go thru Walsh for his approval or WAS Walsh's idea. It's impossible to judge Bird on those years because it's impossible to know what limitations were placed on him either directly or indirectly. And it's just common sense to know that Bird would not have pushed for something that he knows Walsh wouldn't have liked because Bird didn't have that kind of freedom.

What is telling is how differently things were done after Walsh left.

Either Bird suddenly had more freedom to do things his way, or he felt he did.

That said- JOB sucked and lasted too long. Lester Conner should've taken over to begin with before we even got to the point we did. No way should JOB have been extended. That's on Bird and that was bad. He'd get an F here.

I think the Hans pick is starting to smell like a bust. It would've been telling to see how Bird handled that this year- Would he make a move and fix that mistake before it became an open sore, or stand loyal with 'his guy' and hope for a rebound from him this season? Gotta say this one gets an incomplete.

Turning JO into Hibbert has to be an A.

Getting rid of Murphy for DC wasn't bad either. B. Could still be an A if we had a more dynamic SF or SG to help DC out on offense.

Not sure about letting Dunleavey just expire. C to C- there.

The McRoberts handling is a C. From blown trade that he apparently didn't keep a close enough eye on to letting him walk without considering Foster's health and how that would impact frontcourt depth. Let alone Hans' game slipping this season.

West signing was huge I think. A+. West brought the team a veteran presence that was both respected and had game. And he didn't break the bank.

George Hill trade. Incomplete. We need this season to know if it was a rental that wasted a pick, or a player that is proving too costly versus some of our other options we passed on to get to this point.

End of season drama and dysfunction that Bird brought at the end of every season- C. Tempted to say D. Let's go C- on it. Probably didn't affect too much but was needless silliness and this season's more than normal.

Barbosa went from A to D in the playoffs. Seemed like a good move to begin with and then went south. I'm gonna say B- on that one. Obviously there was some good. And it's questionable how Vogel used him (as opposed to just giving him a seat when his game wasn't working) in the playoffs. But it was an attempt to address a weakness at the trade deadline. It's not like it hurt and I'm not sure there was any other legitimate option.

I don't know what that averages out to be... Hick's is the one with the education background so maybe he'll tell me what all that adds up to! ;)


So Larry came here in 2003 and took a title as President of Basketball operations. With a job description of "In charge of all roster and coaching moves". And had absolutely no say in anything that happened before 2008?

Bball
07-01-2012, 01:24 AM
So Larry came here in 2003 and took a title as President of Basketball operations. With a job description of "In charge of all roster and coaching moves". And had absolutely no say in anything that happened before 2008?

He had input... but not complete control nor free reign.

It's not even a debatable point or something I'm speculating on. Walsh continued to do the heavy lifting. That's how it was. I don't care what title anyone had.

rm1369
07-01-2012, 01:31 AM
So Larry came here in 2003 and took a title as President of Basketball operations. With a job description of "In charge of all roster and coaching moves". And had absolutely no say in anything that happened before 2008?

In general I agree with you. I have a hard time believing that DW recruited LB and then gave him no power. I have an even harder time believing tha LB would stay with the team if he was micro managed and given no control. It doesn't seem like his style. With that said, we just don't know. There are certain decisions that we have been consistently told was one of them: Shawne Williams & James White were Bird, GS trade was DW. I'm not 100% certain you can believe it, but I think you have to assume the consistant reporting is correct.

However you cut it, the two headed monster of LB and DW was a complete failure. Give the combo a big F. That was why I was irate at the initial reports of DW coming back. We saw this movie and it sucked. I think we will get a sense very quickly if DW keeps a tight leash on the GM. We have some idea of how KP operates. If he is given a lot of latitude, you can bet your *** that LB had it to.

Eleazar
07-01-2012, 01:39 AM
Bird has been both good and terrible at the same time, which in my opinion balance out to above average.

JOB is what is keeping him from getting an A in my opinion. He should never have been extended, I could understand waiting out his original contract, but the extension was a huge no-no. What made this so bad is that a bad coach ripples throughout the players. Without JOB Rush most likely turns out to be a great role player off the bench for us providing some of the best wing defense in the league along side some excellent shooting, yeah he probably still wouldn't have reached expectations but I imagine people would be less sour on him if JOB wasn't the coach. While he brought some good aspects to Danny's game on offense he also had a negative effect on his defensive effort and encouraged him to be a chucker. When McBob had a clear vision as too how he needed to improve he greatly improved that aspect of his game, the problem is JOB wanted him to improve his 3point shooting, not his low post moves, or mid-range shooting which is what he should have been working on. If he improved either of those aspects as much as he did his 3point shooting, we wouldn't be as weak down low when the bench came in this past season. It is said Price outplayed every PG on the team his rookie season, but he hardly ever saw any court time. He could have easily turned out better than he has been if he was getting time from the very beginning as he should have been. Then the constant messing with the line-ups hurt everyone, no one and no team can play at their best when who plays is constantly being changed.

His other big blunder (relatively speaking) has been Hansbrough. Hansbrough may still turn into a serviceable backup (especially if he isn't the center of attention in the post), but even at the time it was obvious to all that there was at least 2 PG's who we should have taken over him. I personally was a big supporter of drafting Lawson.


One the other hand he has also been very good.

His best aspect is his patient, sometimes it can be frustrating, but in the long run I believe this team is better for it. He isn't going to go out there and make a mistake chasing someone who isn't worth a huge chunk of the cap in order to get a quick fix that most likely will backfire.

While Hansbrough has been a disappointment, his drafting has been one of the best. He has had the luxury of top draft picks, so the players he has gotten might not be as good as others, but you will be hard to find many who have gotten as much value out of their selections as the Pacers. Even in the second round our picks tend to turn out better than most.


While there are good and bad, there is also the obvious. These are situations that may be good moves, but are just so damn obvious that they shouldn't effect his grade either way.

Trading Murphy for Collison. Anyone with half a basketball brain would have done this, even if you have to take Posey. It just sucks that our coach had less than half a brain, and thought the trade was Murphy for Posey.

Trading a second round pick for Barbosa. Even with how poorly Barbosa played, this was in no way a bad trade. It is a steal no matter how you frame it. I doubt there is one GM in the league who would say no to getting Barbosa for a 2nd round pick.

I believe someone mentioned letting Dunleav's contract expire as a good thing, well I'm not sure how it can be framed as anything other than the obvious thing to do. With Dunleavy there was either going to be an obvious trade that comes up, similar to Murphy's, or he walks when his contract is done. There is nothing spectacular about this move to warrant it's mentioning in being a good move on Bird's part.

Bball
07-01-2012, 01:47 AM
What you guys are forgetting is Bird signed on for a couple years of apprenticeship (or whatever you want to call it) to transition into the role when Walsh retired in a couple of years. But the brawl happened, yada yada yada... and Walsh didn't retired as planned. In fact, towards the end there were even some rumors of friction because the two of them were still there. I can't tell you if there was any truth to that or not but I can tell you, until Walsh left Bird was just a voice in the front office and not THE voice. That was Walsh.

Eleazar
07-01-2012, 01:55 AM
What you guys are forgetting is Bird signed on for a couple years of apprenticeship (or whatever you want to call it) to transition into the role when Walsh retired in a couple of years. But the brawl happened, yada yada yada... and Walsh didn't retired as planned. In fact, towards the end there were even some rumors of friction because the two of them were still there. I can't tell you if there was any truth to that or not but I can tell you, until Walsh left Bird was just a voice in the front office and not THE voice. That was Walsh.

Walsh was most certainly higher up on the chain, but it is also highly unlikely that his was the only voice that matter. I will give you the first couple seasons, but after that I think it is a lot more even than you want to believe.

Anyways I don't think you can accurately judge Bird for that time period as it was a two headed monster, and he certainly wasn't the only one making decisions. He deserves some blame, but not as much as some people are using it for. Just as I don't think Walsh deserves as much blame for that period as some people want to put on him either. That was a bad period because you had both Walsh and Bird. Take one away (I don't care who), and I guarantee it would have been a better than having them both. Sometimes a two headed monster can work, but it requires both to be on the same page. I think it was obvious that wasn't the case, and that was why there were problems. Not because of one or the other.

xBulletproof
07-01-2012, 02:04 AM
So Larry came here in 2003 and took a title as President of Basketball operations. With a job description of "In charge of all roster and coaching moves". And had absolutely no say in anything that happened before 2008?

So you think Larry walked in from day 1 and took control from Walsh who had held the title of Pacers CEO for what .... 12 years and just made all the decisions?

It sounds just as silly as you believed yours did.

BringJackBack
07-01-2012, 07:41 AM
I give him a B+. Hansbrough, Plumlee, and Rush weren't the best of picks. Now it wasn't Larry's fault that Rush didn't turn out to be a good player because he had all of the tools of one, but nonetheless.

Also, wish we could have made something out of Dunleavy and Ford's expiring contracts. Raymond Felton and I think Andre Miller were at one point available for Ford, and that would have been nice.

OJ Mayo or Jamal Crawford could have helped us last year too, but it looks like OJ wasn't his fault that it didn't go down. And Crawford is at best debatable, though in my opinion he would have helped.

Shade
07-01-2012, 08:08 AM
I'd give him an "A" for trades and a "C" on the draft, so I'll split the difference and make it a "B."

ChicagoJ
07-01-2012, 12:35 PM
I'll give him a B- for (a) the best thing he did was not to take on large, high $$ contracts and have patience to get out of the bad contracts we had. But that doesn't take any special basketball-knowledge skills. Morway could have run this team without Bird -- if he relied on the scounting deparment to make his picks -- and we would have acheived the same financial flexibility at the end of the road, but (b) he has assembled all the right parts of a team except for the #1 option -- good components like Granger, Hibbert, Hill, West, Collison. Probably needs to move one or more of those guys to get a real #1 but he at least accumulated assets that play team ball along the way.

Hicks
07-01-2012, 12:51 PM
I voted C, but I'm coming off the draft, so maybe I'm being harsher than I might be later on.

IndyPacer
07-01-2012, 01:47 PM
His other big blunder (relatively speaking) has been Hansbrough. Hansbrough may still turn into a serviceable backup (especially if he isn't the center of attention in the post), but even at the time it was obvious to all that there was at least 2 PG's who we should have taken over him. I personally was a big supporter of drafting Lawson.


So was Bird. He said after the draft that he had a 2-for-1 deal that fell apart at the last minute in the draft. His plan was to move back a bit and take Hansbrough and Lawson but the deal went sour right before they picked. I've wondered since the Morway conflicts became public what exactly happened with that deal.

PacersPride
07-04-2012, 08:29 PM
A solid B for Bird overall based on voting. I am wondering if the real reason Larry left is the owner not willing to spend. Guess we will find out with Hibbert.

xBulletproof
07-04-2012, 10:12 PM
A solid B for Bird overall based on voting. I am wondering if the real reason Larry left is the owner not willing to spend. Guess we will find out with Hibbert.

We already know. Herb has given the front office the clearance to match or not match the offer. Up to the front office.

clownskull
07-05-2012, 05:10 AM
Just evaluating post 2008 totally absolves him for 5 years of suck prior. He came here after 2003 and took the job of President of Basketball Operations. This job description is " in charge of all roster and coaching decisions"

So I just don't buy that you give Larry a pass though the worst decisions of his tenure. He was awful after the Brawl. He was similarly awful for every season before last year. I just don't accept that he becomes immune to a decade of **** direction because we have a winning season on his way out the door.

Billy King and Isaiah Thomas could have done just as ****** if given 10 years to suck without repercussions.

despite what you might want to believe. it was walsh who had final say until he was no longer here. bird had influence but final say is just that. so despite what you claim his job description was- it wasn't until donnie was gone. this issue of who was really in charge was resolved by boyle.
i recall bird talking about changes that needed to be made with the personnel when jermaine was still around and we didn't trade him until walsh was gone. this is a fine example of that.

Hicks
07-05-2012, 10:14 AM
aaronb has had the "who was in charge 03-08" argument with me and others several times. Here's the pattern: Hours/days of stubborness until eventually forced to admit he's wrong, go away for a while, return later on and forget that ever happened, blame Bird for 03-08 again instead of DW.

I'm not wasting my time again.

Sparhawk
07-05-2012, 10:32 AM
I gave him a C.

Good:
-Drafted PG
-Traded for DC
-Lance (I actually think Lance can be a damn good player)

Bad:
-Traded the 15th pick + foreigner + 2nd rounder for Hill. Bird needs to stop dealing with SA cause he got fleeced. I was originally mad at this. I like Hill, but I knew he'd cost a lot to keep or he'd be too much and leave. The 15th pick would be cheap and contrallable for the next 4 years. Personally, I wanted to see the Pacers trade down, try to pick up an extra late pick for 2012 and draft MarShon Brooks. SG spot of PG and Brooks would be in place for the next 3-4 years, possibly longer. If they got an extra pick this year, the Pacers could have drafted Plumlee and Moultrie/PJIII. The Plumlee pick wouldn't look so stupid by itself then...it's still a horrible horrible pick.
-Drafted Hans. Pacers needed a point, but drafted a PF, that I'm sure most people knew wouldn't be anything more than a decent backup. And he's currently not anything more than a 3rd or 4th PF option that is being used as the primary backup PF. Jrue Holiday should have been the pick. A 6'4" point guard that has size, athletic, young & can defend. How was this not that pick?
-Bird ultimately gets the big fat fail for not getting the trade completed of McBob for Mayo.

Bird made some very good decisions, but I think his picks of Hans and Plumlee will set this franchise back in the long run. Not too mention that we had to over pay to keep Hill. If the Pacers kept the pick or at least trade down, they'd have a controllable player for the next 3-4 years and could have used that money going to Hill for a guy like Dragic or a backup PF upgrade. We won't see it now, but ultimately, the bad drafting is going to cost the Pacers....they'll likely be a fringe playoff team. Never getting a high enough pick to make them better, but just remain mediocre.

I do have hope that Pritchard can shake things up.