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View Full Version : Saying Goodbye To Bird's Drafting Style



BillS
06-29-2012, 12:45 PM
First, I'll go on record saying Plumlee fits right down the line as a Larry Bird pick and therefore any attempts to blame/praise Pritchard or Walsh for it seem very silly to me.

One of the things I was never particularly fond of in Larry Bird was his fixation on certain players and thus his blinders to opportunities for different (perhaps better) players that would risk him getting "his guy".

While DW made some interesting (in the Chinese sense) choices in his time, they never seemed quite as, well, <i>stubborn</i> as Bird's have. One could almost peer through the smokescreen and figure out what player Bird was going to draft whether or not that player was a value at that pick.

Now, if Bird's talent evaluation was All That, there wouldn't be a problem with this approach. Disappointment at getting some guy who should have gone a few picks later (and remember, even with Plumlee the second round was only 4 picks away) is assuaged when that player pans out and contributes.

Unfortunately, we end up with players who, we are told, will reach that potential "someday", no matter what circumstances happen between the draft and the time of the confident Birdian reply.

I will be very interested in what the combination of Pritchard and Walsh does in next year's draft. For all the criticisms levied at Donnie, I don't recall many people accusing him of being someone who didn't know talent. Too slow or conservative to go AFTER it, perhaps, but you were pretty clear on what he saw in any player he drafted.

Kid Minneapolis
06-29-2012, 12:46 PM
Seems like Bird drafts guys he would have surrounded himself with in his playing days --- role guys, dirty-work guys. Only problem with that philosophy is that we don't have a Larry Bird type player.

Gamble1
06-29-2012, 12:59 PM
Seems like Bird drafts guys he would have surrounded himself with in his playing days --- role guys, dirty-work guys. Only problem with that philosophy is that we don't have a Larry Bird type player.

My take on it is that Shawne Williams still burns his chaps so bad that he just trust way to much in certain type of players. Bird seems to go every other draft with a risky pick followed by a safe pick.

David Harrison to Danny Granger to Shawne Willams to Brandon Rush to Tyler Hans to Paul George/Lance to trade for Hill to now Plumlee.

We can argue how much Bird was involved with the earlier years picks but it just seems like every other year he was taking a riskier pick followed by a safe pick so he wasn't empty handed by the end.

My hope is that Kevin Pritchard is the new draft guru and not Donnie.

Edit: MY only big problem is that when a guy falls to Bird he doesn't take him because he seems stuck on his guy. Sometimes the guy who falls is his guy but most of the time he isn't.

Bball
06-29-2012, 01:09 PM
Shawne Williams seems like a Donnie Walsh type pick to me. Always has. Either Bird tried it Donnie's way and got burned and learned a lesson (perhaps learned it too well) or DW had a lot of influence on that pick. IMHO...

Unclebuck
06-29-2012, 01:34 PM
Honestly, I don't have any idea what is a Bird pick vs a Donnie pick. I don't see a pattern at all.

Naptown_Seth
06-29-2012, 01:53 PM
Edit: MY only big problem is that when a guy falls to Bird he doesn't take him because he seems stuck on his guy. Sometimes the guy who falls is his guy but most of the time he isn't.
100% agree.

You skip Tyler at 13 and trade down to get him in a proper slot. Okay, the Bulls steal him from you. You take Blair or Lawson or Holiday or Collison or Sam Young or whatever instead. Those guys play NBA ball just as much or more and you've gotten the best value for your pick.

Ditto Plumlee.

Bball
06-29-2012, 01:55 PM
Honestly, I don't have any idea what is a Bird pick vs a Donnie pick. I don't see a pattern at all.

Donnie got fascinated with long combo players who had the 'potential' tag hung on them and didn't necessarily play much if any college ball.

Don't forget he wanted Tayshaun but supposedly Isiah wanted Tinsley IIRC the proper draft.

Bball
06-29-2012, 02:00 PM
Edit: MY only big problem is that when a guy falls to Bird he doesn't take him because he seems stuck on his guy. Sometimes the guy who falls is his guy but most of the time he isn't.

Of course reports are that he was pretty excited when Granger fell to the Pacers. Then again, maybe he had focused on Granger because he believed there was a chance his knee injury might allow Granger to fall that far. So this doesn't necessarily not fit the pattern you see. It could fit it perfectly.

eldubious
06-29-2012, 09:04 PM
Bird's draft philosphy will never win titles. He continually plays it safe instead of taking a chance on potential. He passed on Rondo, Holiday, Blair, and now Perry Jones. Chad Ford described Bird perfectly by saying "he goes for singles instead of home runs."

vnzla81
06-29-2012, 09:12 PM
Yes goodbye Bird And I don't think I'm ever going to miss your "drafting philosophy" if you had one, byeeeee, byeeeeee, byeeee....

Bball
06-29-2012, 09:39 PM
Yes goodbye Bird And I don't think I'm ever going to miss your "drafting philosophy" if you had one, byeeeee, byeeeeee, byeeee....

I'd be more happy if Bird wasn't being replaced by the return of Donnie Do Nothing Walsh.

Walsh likes long lean combo players and white centers. Don't know why he has a fascination with white centers, maybe just trying to find the next Rik Smits or something (I don't think it's anything racial).

I believe it was Bird's pick but I doubt Walsh tried to stop him or question him. He was probably fairly giddy.

At least Bird has shown some inclination to make trades and go after FA's.... Let alone make trades before something festers into a boil. Walsh will want to slow that down and go into a wait and see mode. And of course "We don't make trades for the sake of trades" mode.

I certainly think the FO could've been improved and removing Bird from it wasn't necessarily a bad move. But bringing Donnie Walsh back sure is. IMHO

indyman37
06-29-2012, 09:48 PM
Bill Simmons' reaction to the Plumlee pick:

"10:04 — Instead of taking Miles Plumlee at no. 26, Indiana should have just walked over to Perry Jones and dumped a bucket of manure on him. That's tonight's first pick that elicited outright laughter from everyone in my living room. It's almost like they knew Larry Bird was leaving and wanted to take one last white guy in his honor, only all the white guys got taken and they still stubbornly stuck to the plan. Nope, we promised we'd do it for Larry … just take Plumlee, it will be fine …"

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8111210/welcome-draft-diary-xvi

Gamble1
06-29-2012, 09:50 PM
My hope is that Donnie is one year away from retirement and kp takes the lead spot. Either way the pacers will have 10 mill off the books from West and a possible FA signing that could make us a better and younger team.

jdw
06-29-2012, 10:02 PM
I'll delurk for a second on this one. For the record, I'm kind of 'meh' on the 26 pick. I was going to be 'meh' anyway, it's 26. Really do like the Johnson pickup.

That said, from an outsider's perspective, I've felt that the Pacers have drafted for need instead of the best available. I think if I were in the chair I'd be the other way around, I think acquiring talent in the draft and going the free agent route for need is more beneficial. You can always trade talent for need.

tate
06-29-2012, 10:57 PM
Donnie got fascinated with long combo players who had the 'potential' tag hung on them and didn't necessarily play much if any college ball.

Don't forget he wanted Tayshaun but supposedly Isiah wanted Tinsley IIRC the proper draft.

It was Fred Jones that Isiah wanted and got over Prince that year.

1984
06-29-2012, 11:26 PM
"I valued a player who cared for others and could lose himself in the group for the good of the group."

- John Wooden

vnzla81
06-30-2012, 01:04 AM
"I valued a player who cared for others and could lose himself in the group for the good of the group."

- John Wooden

"But we have a bunch of players like that"

- Vnzla81.

Sollozzo
06-30-2012, 02:09 AM
Donnie got fascinated with long combo players who had the 'potential' tag hung on them and didn't necessarily play much if any college ball.

Don't forget he wanted Tayshaun but supposedly Isiah wanted Tinsley IIRC the proper draft.

Tinsley was drafted in 2001 while Prince wasn't drafted until 2002.

Bball
06-30-2012, 02:54 AM
Tinsley was drafted in 2001 while Prince wasn't drafted until 2002.

Tate says it was Freddy Jones. That sounds right. The main point is Walsh claimed to have wanted Tayshaun but deferred to Isiah who wanted a different player.

rm1369
06-30-2012, 10:03 AM
Tate says it was Freddy Jones. That sounds right. The main point is Walsh claimed to have wanted Tayshaun but deferred to Isiah who wanted a different player.

That's my memory as well - DW wanted Prince, but defered to IT who wanted Jones. I just don't remember how far after the fact it was reported. Before or after Jones sucked and Prince blossomed.

TheDon
06-30-2012, 11:10 AM
always crack myself up when I see people use isaiah's initials to refer to him, because I always think of the stephen king movie instead of isaiah

Sollozzo
06-30-2012, 11:22 AM
Tate says it was Freddy Jones. That sounds right. The main point is Walsh claimed to have wanted Tayshaun but deferred to Isiah who wanted a different player.


It's a shame Donnie didn't get the upper-hand on that one. We maybe wouldn't have put up with Artest for so long if we had Prince on the roster who could have replaced him as a defender. Prince's offense isn't too shabby either.

Prince and Rondo are two UK players we passed on that later came back to bite us in the ***. Will Teague be the third? It's going to be frustrating if the starting PG on the national championship team who grew up in the Pacers' backyard goes on to have a solid career with the freaking Bulls. I think Teague has the tools to be a very solid NBA player.

Pacers24Colts12
06-30-2012, 11:35 AM
Bird has built a solid team, championship team? Probably not. But with Pritchard now coming in, the chance is there to wheel and deal and turn the solid players into better players or be more aggressive in the draft. To me it is the perfect time for Bird to step away. Still don't care for the Plumlee pick at all.

imawhat
06-30-2012, 12:41 PM
I'm way more concerned about Donnie's drafting style than I ever was with Larry. Who was the last good value pick at their spot before Landry Fields? Tinsley? Antonio Davis? Really, the odds are in your favor that you'll make a decent pick every three years or so, and I think it's remarkable that Donnie hasn't done that.

OlBlu
06-30-2012, 01:42 PM
Bill Simmons' reaction to the Plumlee pick:

"10:04 Instead of taking Miles Plumlee at no. 26, Indiana should have just walked over to Perry Jones and dumped a bucket of manure on him. That's tonight's first pick that elicited outright laughter from everyone in my living room. It's almost like they knew Larry Bird was leaving and wanted to take one last white guy in his honor, only all the white guys got taken and they still stubbornly stuck to the plan. Nope, we promised we'd do it for Larry just take Plumlee, it will be fine "

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8111210/welcome-draft-diary-xvi

I am fine with this post but I wonder why Hicks decided to allow it but took my post down reporting what was said about the pick and the Pacers in Atlanta?? Do we have a double standard here? I don't really care about my post being deleted, I was only the messenger of what was said. This post says about the same thing but without any bet being involved.......:cool:

vnzla81
06-30-2012, 01:53 PM
I really thought things were going to change with Bird gone but is starting to look like everything is going to stay the same, draft safe picks, keep the same pieces together and keep bringing role players to complement our role players, I'm starting to agree with some people here, that Simon is just happy to make the playoffs and is not willing to go the extra mile to win a championship, I'm preparing myself to be disappointed in free agency again.

Bball
06-30-2012, 02:35 PM
I really thought things were going to change with Bird gone but is starting to look like everything is going to stay the same, draft safe picks, keep the same pieces together and keep bringing role players to complement our role players, I'm starting to agree with some people here, that Simon is just happy to make the playoffs and is not willing to go the extra mile to win a championship, I'm preparing myself to be disappointed in free agency again.

Unless Walsh is just a mascot with no real power or influence, this FO will make Bird look like a never satisfied, wheelin' dealin', tradin' machine.

Of course we just have to wait and see if KP exerts a different influence on Walsh.

But seriously, if not then we'll be overpaying our own, staying out of FA, and the only substantial moves we'll make is to maintain a spot in the playoffs. If there's a problem and the wheels come off, once the playoffs are in jeopardy or missed THEN you can expect a move of some substance.

Hibbert's agent might've felt worried about not seeking an extension last season as Roy took his annual slump. But he has to be absolutely schoolgirl giddy now with Walsh back in the FO. Back up the Brinks truck...

And George Hill won't be far behind.

BillS
06-30-2012, 02:42 PM
I really thought things were going to change with Bird gone but is starting to look like everything is going to stay the same, draft safe picks, keep the same pieces together and keep bringing role players to complement our role players, I'm starting to agree with some people here, that Simon is just happy to make the playoffs and is not willing to go the extra mile to win a championship, I'm preparing myself to be disappointed in free agency again.

What do you need, a signed and notarized statement that this was Bird's pick? Everyonje has reported this was Bird's pick. Pritchard said he was working with Bird and this was Bird's pick. All the media have said it was Bird's pick. Donnie wasn't allowed to be with the Pacers draft night because he was still under contract with the Knicks.

But, fine, this was all the new front office and Bird had nothing to do with it. That way you can start *****ing about Donnie and Pritchard with how much they sucked BEFORE DONNIE WAS EVEN ALLOWED TO WORK FOR THE PACERS.

Whatever.

vnzla81
06-30-2012, 02:51 PM
What do you need, a signed and notarized statement that this was Bird's pick? Everyonje has reported this was Bird's pick. Pritchard said he was working with Bird and this was Bird's pick. All the media have said it was Bird's pick. Donnie wasn't allowed to be with the Pacers draft night because he was still under contract with the Knicks.

But, fine, this was all the new front office and Bird had nothing to do with it. That way you can start *****ing about Donnie and Pritchard with how much they sucked BEFORE DONNIE WAS EVEN ALLOWED TO WORK FOR THE PACERS.

Whatever.

Whoa, I know it was Bird's pick all I'm saying is that for what I'm reading from the new FO is not giving me the confidence that things are going to get better, it looks to me like they want to keep doing things the "Larry Bird way" meh.

Bball
06-30-2012, 02:55 PM
Donnie wasn't allowed to be with the Pacers draft night because he was still under contract with the Knicks.

That way you can start *****ing about Donnie and Pritchard with how much they sucked BEFORE DONNIE WAS EVEN ALLOWED TO WORK FOR THE PACERS.

Whatever.

Wasn't Walsh attending workouts for the Pacers? Perhaps in an unofficial capacity with a wink and a nod, but he wasn't there for the Knicks. The contract timing is merely a formality. I'm sure the pick was Bird's but I have no doubt DW knew exactly who Bird was choosing and could've chosen to informally redflag it if he'd wanted... or if he felt strongly enough against it he could've refused to rejoin the FO. In fact I seriously doubt Walsh wasn't consulted about the pick. It might have been as simple as "This is who we are drafting, what do you think?" but I think it's naive to think Walsh was out of the loop on this draft.

Bball
06-30-2012, 02:58 PM
Whoa, I know it was Bird's pick all I'm saying is that for what I'm reading from the new FO is not giving me the confidence that things are going to get better, it looks to me like they want to keep doing things the "Larry Bird way" meh.

You will be pining for the "Larry Bird way" if we return to the "Walsh way".

Hopefully the KP wildcard changes that but I don't see it. I see a frustrated KP heading for greener pastures with more control sooner rather than later.

BillS
06-30-2012, 03:05 PM
Whoa, I know it was Bird's pick all I'm saying is that for what I'm reading from the new FO is not giving me the confidence that things are going to get better, it looks to me like they want to keep doing things the "Larry Bird way" meh.

I'm just not sure what the new FO has or has not done at this point that gives you a feeling one way or the other. Free Agency doesn't start until tomorrow. Trading before the draft (without the new President in place) would have been somewhat premature.

Were you expecting Pritchard and Walsh to slam Bird's pick or something?

BillS
06-30-2012, 03:07 PM
Wasn't Walsh attending workouts for the Pacers? Perhaps in an unofficial capacity with a wink and a nod, but he wasn't there for the Knicks. The contract timing is merely a formality. I'm sure the pick was Bird's but I have no doubt DW knew exactly who Bird was choosing and could've chosen to informally redflag it if he'd wanted... or if he felt strongly enough against it he could've refused to rejoin the FO. In fact I seriously doubt Walsh wasn't consulted about the pick. It might have been as simple as "This is who we are drafting, what do you think?" but I think it's naive to think Walsh was out of the loop on this draft.

OK, so you are saying the old "Walsh really had control" line? It seemed pretty clear this was going to be Bird's last draft choice, and I don't think Donnie was empowered to veto it.

But, fine, whatever, it was a mistake and therefore it HAD to be Donnie's fault.

Everything is back to normal at PD now. Nothing to see here.

vnzla81
06-30-2012, 03:34 PM
I'm just not sure what the new FO has or has not done at this point that gives you a feeling one way or the other. Free Agency doesn't start until tomorrow. Trading before the draft (without the new President in place) would have been somewhat premature.

Were you expecting Pritchard and Walsh to slam Bird's pick or something?

Well for what I've been reading of Pritchards interview with Wells he sounds to me like the FO is going to stay the status quo and just ad few role players, I expected that from Bird but not from this new front office I hope I'm wrong though.

Hicks
06-30-2012, 03:44 PM
I am fine with this post but I wonder why Hicks decided to allow it but took my post down reporting what was said about the pick and the Pacers in Atlanta?? Do we have a double standard here? I don't really care about my post being deleted, I was only the messenger of what was said. This post says about the same thing but without any bet being involved.......:cool:

A comment you made while you pasted the Simmons snippet triggered an unwanted discussion among multiple posters about racism in Indiana, so that chain of posts was deleted. This isn't a forum for that kind of a topic.

In the future, consider showing me a little more respect on the board instead of trotting out accusations at me, especially considering I'm the only reason you're even still able to post at all.

Frankly, I think you slipped up and exposed yourself the other day as a troll after all, with your Plumlee/McRoberts double standard, so I'm not entirely sure why I still defend you at all. I suspect you just enjoy being a contrarian in order to get under people's skin.

You may want to try harder to adjust your reputation, otherwise I'm giving up.

Bball
06-30-2012, 03:48 PM
I'm just not sure what the new FO has or has not done at this point that gives you a feeling one way or the other.

Rehired Donnie Do Nothing Walsh

Bball
06-30-2012, 03:54 PM
OK, so you are saying the old "Walsh really had control" line? It seemed pretty clear this was going to be Bird's last draft choice, and I don't think Donnie was empowered to veto it.

But, fine, whatever, it was a mistake and therefore it HAD to be Donnie's fault.

Everything is back to normal at PD now. Nothing to see here.

I'm not blaming the pick on Walsh. I'm just saying it was a pick Walsh would be fine with. And I'm saying Walsh surely wasn't blindsided by the pick. So the new two-headed monster is operating just as it did before. Bird can take plenty of blame for the pick. And Walsh gets no credit for standing on the sidelines and doing nothing about it or any of us thinking he was out of the loop on the pick. The both get the blame if it proves to be as bad as it looks as far as I am concerned... and so does Simon and Pritchard. ...or the credit if it turns out they were smarter than everybody else.

Justin Tyme
06-30-2012, 04:04 PM
How could Walsh stop Bird, who was in control of the draft, when Walsh is still employed by the Knicks until 12:01 tonight? Walsh has no power to veto Bird's pick as he wasn't an employee of the Pacers during the draft. Walsh has no fault in the Plumlee pick. That pick is ALL ON Bird.

OlBlu
06-30-2012, 04:11 PM
How could Walsh stop Bird, who was in control of the draft, when Walsh is still employed by the Knicks until 12:01 tonight? Walsh has no power to veto Bird's pick as he wasn't an employee of the Pacers during the draft. Walsh has no fault in the Plumlee pick. That pick is ALL ON Bird.

There is a big difference between what should be true and reality. I would bet a lot of money that Walsh was very involved and that he agreed with the pick.......:cool:

troyc11a
06-30-2012, 04:12 PM
Since 2008 Larry Bird's draft style has netted us: Paul George and Roy Hibbert. Also it must be included that George Hill came draft day trade. Add in the trades for West and Collison and it should be obvious that we will probably be missing Bird's drafting style! Was he perfect? No way, but all GM's have misses but he has as many hits as any GM in the league. We will miss you Larry!!!!!!

troyc11a
06-30-2012, 04:13 PM
There is a big difference between what should be true and reality. I would bet a lot of money that Walsh was very involved and that he agreed with the pick.......:cool:

This time next year everyone on this board will be "agreeing" with this pick!

OlBlu
06-30-2012, 04:17 PM
This time next year everyone on this board will be "agreeing" with this pick!

I also believe that will be true even if some of the later picks excell. Plumlee fills a big need and I look for him to be real crowd pleaser with highlight reel dunks.......:cool:

rabid
06-30-2012, 04:29 PM
Call me naive but I'm not automatically assuming that Walsh will come in and make the exact same mistakes he made in the early/mid 2000's... people DO evolve, adjust, grow, and learn from adversity sometimes. Donnie isn't stupid, he realizes what happened to this franchise between 04-10 or so, with the Murphleavy trade, JO and Tins' contracts keeping us in cap hell for years. If not I'm sure Simon and Bird might have mentioned it to him once or twice ;-).

It is entirely possible that Donnie will resume his old ways, playing it safe, paying too much to re-sign our own guys, etc etc. However I do not think this is automatic, and in fact I think there is reason to hope for a somewhat different approach with Pritchard here, with our recent past and how we dug ourselves out, and with the unique situation we have THIS summer, with cap room and in a position to move things to the next level in a way we haven't been able to for a decade now...

And yes, this is Bird's pick. All of the available evidence points overwhelmingly in that direction. No reason whatsoever to assume otherwise unless you're being purely conspiratorial.

Bball
06-30-2012, 04:36 PM
How could Walsh stop Bird, who was in control of the draft, when Walsh is still employed by the Knicks until 12:01 tonight? Walsh has no power to veto Bird's pick as he wasn't an employee of the Pacers during the draft. Walsh has no fault in the Plumlee pick. That pick is ALL ON Bird.

Walsh coming onboard was already a done deal except for the time when the ink could go on the contract. He gets to share in this pick, good or bad, just as Simon and Pritchard does. It's not like this is not the kind of pick Walsh wouldn't have taken. I don't believe for one second he couldn't have stopped it if he really wanted to. He could've called Simon and put the kibosh on it. You're not going to tell me that the FO monster was working with Walsh in the dark about the draft... yet Walsh officially announcing his coming onboard before the draft all happened with no discussion of the impending draft??

Justin Tyme
06-30-2012, 04:52 PM
Walsh coming onboard was already a done deal except for the time when the ink could go on the contract. He gets to share in this pick, good or bad, just as Simon and Pritchard does. It's not like this is not the kind of pick Walsh wouldn't have taken. I don't believe for one second he couldn't have stopped it if he really wanted to. He could've called Simon and put the kibosh on it. You're not going to tell me that the FO monster was working with Walsh in the dark about the draft... yet Walsh officially announcing his coming onboard before the draft all happened with no discussion of the impending draft??


The only person who could have stopped that pick was Simon. It would smell to high heaven if Simon had stopped Bird from picking Plumlee when Simon doesn't know Plumlee from Tyler Zeller. What reason would Simon have, b/c Donnie said it was a poor pick? The finger would have pointed right at Walsh who couldn't legally even be involved in the draft.

As much as I don't like or want Walsh back in the FO, I can't give any credit to Walsh for the Plumlee pick. The Plumlee pick is all on Bird until Walsh writes his memiors saying differently.

Bball
06-30-2012, 05:11 PM
The only person who could have stopped that pick was Simon. It would smell to high heaven if Simon had stopped Bird from picking Plumlee when Simon doesn't know Plumlee from Tyler Zeller. What reason would Simon have, b/c Donnie said it was a poor pick? The finger would have pointed right at Walsh who couldn't legally even be involved in the draft.

As much as I don't like or want Walsh back in the FO, I can't give any credit to Walsh for the Plumlee pick. The Plumlee pick is all on Bird until Walsh writes his memiors saying differently.

I agree the pick was all Bird... I just have few doubts Walsh not only knew about it but was fine with it. I doubt he said or thought "Plumlee??? Are we sure about this?"

It's just so disappointing to follow the Bird era with a return to the Walsh error....

aaronb
06-30-2012, 05:21 PM
I agree the pick was all Bird... I just have few doubts Walsh not only knew about it but was fine with it. I doubt he said or thought "Plumlee??? Are we sure about this?"

It's just so disappointing to follow the Bird era with a return to the Walsh error....


Were you around from 1990-2003 when Bird took the reigns?