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View Full Version : Talent will always beat hard work.



PacerFreak31
06-28-2012, 10:50 PM
We played Miami our hardest and still lost the series 4-2. We got in Miami's face like we were world beaters, and we still lost 4-2. We were up 2-1 against the eventual champions and we lost 3 games in a row because we woke them up or whatever you want to say. They will be the same team for at least 3-4 more years. You are not going to scare them or out work them even with drafting " Jeff Foster 2.0" or whatever crap you want to call this joke of a draft pick. We need TALENT not some bum that couldn't even start after 4 years in college. We don't need anymore dirty work players. We need players that can play, that can score especially if they are coming off the bench. We are offically committed to being 3-6th best in the East and will ALWAYS lose to the Heat if we face them in the playoffs for the next 4 years. Bird has always been so afraid to trade back in the draft and it makes me sick. Players that he "loved" some could have been selected later then they were and we could have picked up some true assets. However, they knew whom they were going to pick because this is exactly why they had the draft party at different locations. They knew what the fan reaction would be and that was a good call because everyone would have booed them right out of the building. Now all I hear is the pacers talking about signing their own FA's which is good but they never once say that they are going to be aggressive in the FA market so that tells me that they are happy being less talented than other teams and they keep holding too much faith in the players that clearly won't get any better in the off season. Tyler, Hill, Jones, Danny, Collison, Price, nor West will be any better next year than they were this year. So that leaves Roy and Paul and Stevenson to improve drastically and we still won't have enough to beat the Heat but I guess that is not the goal.

PacersHomer
06-28-2012, 10:58 PM
100% true. We messed up passing on Perry Jones and I bet we'll regret it for a long time.

doctor-h
06-28-2012, 10:58 PM
You are exactly right. The Pacers never take a risk. They are happy with just making the playoffs. How in the world would a player like Plumlee make any difference against the Heat. They already had a Plumlee on the team in Pendergraf and never played him. It seems like it is a waste of time to get excited about this team. They always shoot themselves in the foot. It is time to grow a pair and have some vision.

Anthem
06-28-2012, 11:22 PM
Back the train up. Miami's been the most talented in the league for a while; this is the first time they've won.

Talent sure as heck helps. But it doesn't "always" beat hard work. Plenty of talented guys drop out of the league because they don't work hard.

doctor-h
06-28-2012, 11:39 PM
Back the train up. Miami's been the most talented in the league for a while; this is the first time they've won.

Talent sure as heck helps. But it doesn't "always" beat hard work. Plenty of talented guys drop out of the league because they don't work hard.

Yea their team has been together for 2 years. They played in the finals twice and won once. It must have killed them to wait that long.

PacerFreak31
06-28-2012, 11:39 PM
I absolutely agree that there have been talented guys drop out of the league because they don't work hard. However, for the most part we just have a team of hard workers and not as much talent. The Knicks made us look bad this year because they had more talent, Orlando made us look bad during the season before they lost Howard and in the playoffs Orlando "played hard" but we still won the series because we had more talent, Miami made us look bad in the playoffs and in the regular season. Outside of George we haven't taken a chance on talent. You could argue James White and Lance Stevenson but both were second round picks. When you have a top 10 projected talent fall you take a chance on him. People say we were never really going to get a good player at 26 but we could have taken a chance. However when you make moves like this you are sending the wrong message to a fan base that you are trying to win back. If you get the steal of the draft or at least on paper that steal of the draft that gets fans talking. With this pick the only thing fans will be taking about is how much they hate this pick. Not exactly winning the fans back with that type of reaction.

Sandman21
06-28-2012, 11:56 PM
People need to calm the **** down.

Nuntius
06-28-2012, 11:57 PM
Talent will never beat hard work.

See? Everyone can make absolute statements :D

For a serious answer now. It depends. It always depends. We didn't lost to Miami because they were more talented. We lost to Miami because we couldn't make the right passes and they took full advantage of it.

PacerFreak31
06-29-2012, 12:10 AM
Talent will never beat hard work.

See? Everyone can make absolute statements :D

For a serious answer now. It depends. It always depends. We didn't lost to Miami because they were more talented. We lost to Miami because we couldn't make the right passes and they took full advantage of it.

Did you watch the same playoff series that I did? I ask that because the series I watched I saw two more talented players than our whole team not allow their team to lose. I saw two players that regardless how hard our guys tried and defended it was never good enough because they were just flat out more talented. I guess we were watching two different series though.

CompACE
06-29-2012, 12:10 AM
People need to calm the **** down.

Seriously. People are acting like we just went 10-72.

Hoop
06-29-2012, 12:13 AM
Talent + Hard Work is what wins, Period.

Anthem
06-29-2012, 12:20 AM
Talent + Hard Work is what wins, Period.
Yep.

Hard to say we outworked Miami in the playoffs.

Strummer
06-29-2012, 12:28 AM
People here really expect to find a Wade or LeBron with the 26th pick? I think those people will always be disappointed no matter what the Pacers do.

CompACE
06-29-2012, 12:33 AM
I think it would be hilarious if both Perry Jones and Miles Plumlee just end up being serviceable role players in the NBA. Then I can look back at this thread and laugh. It would be like if I saw a thread from back in the day and someone was up in arms because we didn't get Marcus Fizer or something.

15th parallel
06-29-2012, 12:46 AM
We played Miami our hardest and still lost the series 4-2. We got in Miami's face like we were world beaters, and we still lost 4-2. We were up 2-1 against the eventual champions and we lost 3 games in a row because we woke them up or whatever you want to say. They will be the same team for at least 3-4 more years. You are not going to scare them or out work them even with drafting " Jeff Foster 2.0" or whatever crap you want to call this joke of a draft pick. We need TALENT not some bum that couldn't even start after 4 years in college. We don't need anymore dirty work players. We need players that can play, that can score especially if they are coming off the bench. We are offically committed to being 3-6th best in the East and will ALWAYS lose to the Heat if we face them in the playoffs for the next 4 years. Bird has always been so afraid to trade back in the draft and it makes me sick. Players that he "loved" some could have been selected later then they were and we could have picked up some true assets. However, they knew whom they were going to pick because this is exactly why they had the draft party at different locations. They knew what the fan reaction would be and that was a good call because everyone would have booed them right out of the building. Now all I hear is the pacers talking about signing their own FA's which is good but they never once say that they are going to be aggressive in the FA market so that tells me that they are happy being less talented than other teams and they keep holding too much faith in the players that clearly won't get any better in the off season. Tyler, Hill, Jones, Danny, Collison, Price, nor West will be any better next year than they were this year. So that leaves Roy and Paul and Stevenson to improve drastically and we still won't have enough to beat the Heat but I guess that is not the goal.

By your argument you are saying that LeBron, DWade and Bosh are just pure talent that doesn't work hard. C'mon now. They had talent, sure. But apart from being talented, they also work hard. Pacers may not be that talented, if that's how people compare them with other teams, but they still managed the 5th best record without superstars.

Hard work alone or talent alone will not be enough. But you know that most NBA players have the enough talent just to be able to play in a professional sport. It's the hard work that can push a team farther than talent.

Nuntius
06-29-2012, 12:53 AM
Did you watch the same playoff series that I did? I ask that because the series I watched I saw two more talented players than our whole team not allow their team to lose. I saw two players that regardless how hard our guys tried and defended it was never good enough because they were just flat out more talented. I guess we were watching two different series though.

Yes, I did.

There's no doubt that their two players were more talented than anyone our team.

But as a team they weren't more talented. They had two top dogs but we had a better collection of players. The problem was that we failed to execute after the second half of Game 3. We got outplayed.

Why? They were more focused. They executed better. Our passing failed us. There are several reasons. Basketball is a lot more than "talent vs hard work".

Not everything needs to be a storyline, my friend.

Pacersalltheway10
06-29-2012, 01:04 AM
The saying is hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. Miami worked hard.

Slick Pinkham
06-29-2012, 01:34 AM
People here really expect to find a Wade or LeBron with the 26th pick? .

No, but they also don't expect "Solomon Jones lite"

daschysta
06-29-2012, 01:53 AM
We played Miami our hardest and still lost the series 4-2. We got in Miami's face like we were world beaters, and we still lost 4-2. We were up 2-1 against the eventual champions and we lost 3 games in a row because we woke them up or whatever you want to say. They will be the same team for at least 3-4 more years. You are not going to scare them or out work them even with drafting " Jeff Foster 2.0" or whatever crap you want to call this joke of a draft pick. We need TALENT not some bum that couldn't even start after 4 years in college. We don't need anymore dirty work players. We need players that can play, that can score especially if they are coming off the bench. We are offically committed to being 3-6th best in the East and will ALWAYS lose to the Heat if we face them in the playoffs for the next 4 years. Bird has always been so afraid to trade back in the draft and it makes me sick. Players that he "loved" some could have been selected later then they were and we could have picked up some true assets. However, they knew whom they were going to pick because this is exactly why they had the draft party at different locations. They knew what the fan reaction would be and that was a good call because everyone would have booed them right out of the building. Now all I hear is the pacers talking about signing their own FA's which is good but they never once say that they are going to be aggressive in the FA market so that tells me that they are happy being less talented than other teams and they keep holding too much faith in the players that clearly won't get any better in the off season. Tyler, Hill, Jones, Danny, Collison, Price, nor West will be any better next year than they were this year. So that leaves Roy and Paul and Stevenson to improve drastically and we still won't have enough to beat the Heat but I guess that is not the goal.

Let me get this straight, Hibbert and Paul George improving as expected, real, actual difference makers that have the chance to grow into real star caliber players in the NBA won't be enough to even hope to challenge Miami, yet somehow ANYONE that we could have taken at 26 other than plumlee could have? Am I reading that correctly? Read as you type my friend...


The Pacers are talented too you know, Miami didn't walk all over us, by ANY means. We have more room to improve than them. If Wade continues to decline as he has over the past year+, (Wade isn't the same player he was a few years ago, and a guy who relies on flopping (which the NBA is cracking down on at least a bit in the future) and athleticism will decline more quickly than a player that plays a less physically taxing stay, not to mention his MAX deal given how long he has been in the NBA prevents Miami from really adding major pieces in the event of decline) and we improve the point guard position, while reaping the benefits of Hibbert improving as he does every year (and who will also, in my opinion look like a juggernaut once we have a true point guard and a real training camp which employs a real offense, which we lacked last season and still managed to be a top team in the NBA) as well as Paul George then it isn't at all a stretch to say that the Pacers can be at least a serious threat to Miami. Do you have some kind of miracle plan that would somehow convince people that we can be the favorites over Miami? That simply isn't going to happen, that doesn't mean that as we learn from last years run, shore up the point guard position and fulfill the upside of our own players we can't seriously contend for a finals bid against Miami.

I don't see how a lineup that features

A talent as great as Paul George's
A young improving first time All-Star Center
A 2 time All-Star power forward still playing ball at nearly that Caliber
A former All-Star Small Forward coming off of playing arguably the best ball of his career post all-star break (Granger was clearly bothered by something, he wasn't the same after that Philidelphia game where he got injured)

Signing a good starting caliber point guard to round up the starting lineup propels our starters as a group into very elite territory (they were already elite all throughout the season and playoffs statistically, the bench was the issue) and better than the starting lineups of all but the elite of the elite.

We weren't substantially worse than Boston last year, and reasonable expectations of improvement on our end suggest that we should be at least in that Ball Park next season, the same Boston who took Miami to 7 games and nearly ousted them. We aren't so much worse than the top teams that the only hope of ever having a chance to make them sweat is a superstar or bust.



I absolutely agree that there have been talented guys drop out of the league because they don't work hard. However, for the most part we just have a team of hard workers and not as much talent. The Knicks made us look bad this year because they had more talent, Orlando made us look bad during the season before they lost Howard and in the playoffs Orlando "played hard" but we still won the series because we had more talent, Miami made us look bad in the playoffs and in the regular season. Outside of George we haven't taken a chance on talent. You could argue James White and Lance Stevenson but both were second round picks. When you have a top 10 projected talent fall you take a chance on him. People say we were never really going to get a good player at 26 but we could have taken a chance. However when you make moves like this you are sending the wrong message to a fan base that you are trying to win back. If you get the steal of the draft or at least on paper that steal of the draft that gets fans talking. With this pick the only thing fans will be taking about is how much they hate this pick. Not exactly winning the fans back with that type of reaction.

Come on, so we blew out Oklahoma City, Dallas, beat about every relevant Western team on their home floor last year, blew out Miami twice, once in the Playoffs and once in the Reg Season, following your logic we "made them look bad" we must have more talent!!!!! That or you know any team can beat any team in the NBA on a given night, and we had a better record by far than New York and Orlando, who supposedly shame us with their talent. Yes Miami is more talented. Yes Miami is a finished product. They are what they are, which is very, very good, but they had been there done that, Wade had, James had, their vets had. It was our first time seriously challenging in the playoffs for almost all of our key players. They will learn from the experience, improve internally and sign some help or trade for it during free agency.

Miami did not make us look bad in the playoffs at all, we blew them out once, they blew us out once, all of the other games were pretty close contests. Bad is what they made the New York Knicks look like, who embarrassed themselves. I would take our future over theirs any day of the week, and i'm not sure I even buy that they are more talented given Amar'e being a shadow of his former self.

Assuming we sign a above average starter at the point-

(signing)/Collison > Jeremy Lin/ Douglas

Lin was beginning to be exposed without D'Antoni before he was injured, he's not likely to pan out to more than a decent starter, and Collison is an excellent backup, farmoreso than Douglas

George/ Hill or Johnson > Shumpert/ Novak

Paul George is a superior prospect to Shumpert and the gap will be wider next year with George hopefully further improving and Shump seriously injured, both are athletic, but George is a far better shooter, has far greater size, isn't already bogged down with serious injury and while both are good defenders George presents more matchup problems for opponents due to his unique combination of size and speed. Novak is an amazing 3 point shooter, but Hill is a better all around talent.

Granger/ Jones << Anthony/ Fields

Fields is a nice backup, far better than Jones, and Anthony is comfortably better than Granger, however Anthony's incredibly talent is offset by his inherent incompatibility with most team schemes and though he may produce at incredible levels it is a moot point if his style of play negatively effects his teammates game.

David West/ Hans > Amare/ NYK's Backup

Another gap that could get wider, West played like the All-Star he was in New Orleans down the stretch and in the playoffs, which makes sense considering the time table associated with his rehab and how long athletes typically take to reach their former peak levels of play after ACL injuries. Hans is nothing special, but West at this point imo, is comfortably better than Amare, whose game is not only sabotaged by melo ball, but who is an even worse defender than West, is a lousy passer and can't create offense in the Post like West can, relying instead almost entirely on the pick and roll, which is scarce when Melo holds the ball for 20 seconds of every other shot clock before chucking up a difficult shot.

Hibbert = Chandler

It's a wash, Hibbert is the far superior option offensively if a team needs traditional back to the basket post scoring or to run an offense through, Chandler is a plus garbage man, scoring most of his points off of put backs and baskets created by others, and it is shown in his very, very high fg%. Chandler is the better defender, as he is much more mobile, which puts him above hibbert there, who can be attacked in the pick and roll if he isn't careful. Hibbert does block more shots, but overall Chandler is better defensively, whereas Hibbert is a far more dangerous option in the post. In the long run you'd have to take Hibbert considering his remaining upside and age, but just speaking in terms of talent it is close.

Even without a point guard acquisition the talent level is close, and the Pacers are still the better team because our talent actually fits together, unlike the mismatched, overpriced pieces in New York.

Indy has just as much talent and upside as most teams in the NBA, the exceptions being the truly elite teams, and we are not a finished product yet. We don't lack for talent, and seriously, no pick at 26 was going to amount to a hill of beans comparing us to other good/very good teams.


You are exactly right. The Pacers never take a risk. They are happy with just making the playoffs. How in the world would a player like Plumlee make any difference against the Heat. They already had a Plumlee on the team in Pendergraf and never played him. It seems like it is a waste of time to get excited about this team. They always shoot themselves in the foot. It is time to grow a pair and have some vision.

Are you just blatantly trolling now? It's either that, or you seriously believe Perry Jones would make any difference at all against Miami, in which case your credibility is seriously compromised.

If you expect some magic word to be said and for Indiana to get players like Bosh and James overnight because we are a beach destination that is sunny then maybe, and I say this honestly you would be happier just rooting for the Heat, or the Lakers or someone like that. Being any Indiana fan has always been about patience, chipping away, improving each time they fail until eventually they can seriously challenge anyone. You don't seem to be into reaping the rewards of such behavior, if it is instant gratification you are after I have no idea why you torture yourself following the Pacers.

tadscout
06-29-2012, 01:57 AM
No, but they also don't expect "Solomon Jones lite"

7 ft and 250 is NOT even close to Solo... I saw Solo get pushed 10ft by Grant Hill at a game I went too, and was constantly moved out of position by wings. There's a reason why I called him rag doll, because the slightest contact his arm would flail in the air.

Comparing Plumlee to a guy that got suspended for refusing to lift weights, and one of the saddest excuses for a 'big' man is absurd... especially before he has even played one NBA game.

imbtyler
06-29-2012, 02:24 AM
AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

Since this is the first thread I opened up, I'm going to have to rant about it here.

I can't believe we ****ing passed on Perry Jones III!

I've been saying it for HOW LONG? "If we trade up to #10, I hope we get PJ3." Then PJ3 "miraculously" FALLS to us at #26! "We should pick him right here!" Go figure I'm out on a smoke break, talking to some random old lady (why, God, why??), when I see that Stern soundlessly mouth, "With the 26th pick in the 2012 NBA Draft, the Indiana Pacers (ugh) select... Miles Plumlee from Duke University! (haha!)" The parentheses represent Stern's internal monologue whilst speaking that phrase.

1. I don't have too much of a problem with Miles Plumlee. If he's here to play back-up center, then awesome. I can deal with him. He knows how to play, he's athletic, there's hardly anyway he can do worse than Hansbrough in 3 years.
2. Plumlee could have been picked with another early-to-mid second round pick. However, instead, we got him with our 26th? Am I still reading this correctly? Then we swing for the... first baseline with Orlando Johnson? No hate to OJ, however. His story's a great one, he's a wonderful athlete, and I'm sure he'll be great for us. But I think Larry has a thing for citrus-based fruits not from concentrate, because going for OJ Mayo was one thing; going with Orlando Johnson was another. I still think OJ will be good for the team, however.
3. Perry Jones will not get the time to play in order to make himself look good. That sounds like a fanboyism to some degree, but PJ3 has the potential to be really great, knees or not. In OKC's system, he'll get minimal time behind Durant and Ibaka (pending his return), and won't get to prove himself the way that Ibaka did originally, showcasing his strengths in such a system. Jones would have gotten much better time with the Pacers, while they search for the "replacement" for West after his time in Indy is over.

I can't be too angry, however. Even though I watched Austin Rivers and Kendall Marshall disappear, and I waited, beer in hand, for a trade to be announced. Only to continually watch Perry Jones drop further and further. Past the Sixers at 15! Past the Rockets twice, and even the Cavs! How could this be happening? We get to 26, I'm waiting and watching and wondering if I missed something. And then we draft Miles Plumlee, and I'm REALLY wondering if we missed something.

But no. I'm not going to blame this on a Bird-loves-white-guys thing, but I will say that this is rather stereotypical of Bird. Getting a guy with a few question marks as far as height of drafting position (also, nobody really knows this guy), while a really well-formed player (or a few) drops even further. I can't help but be happy, though, unfortunately. Like I said, I respect Plumlee's game, and at least he's taller and more athletic than Hansbrough, so at least he can't be worse.

And I was happy to see we got OJ. Both he and Plumlee have 34" no-step verticals, and while Plumlee has a 40.5" running vert, OJ comes close at 39". These guys can, and will, jump, rebound, and play around the rim.

I can just hope that Plumlee is an epic gem, and OJ is a well-mannered poor-man's Austin Rivers. Or something.

See, that rant wasn't so bad. Could've been worse. :gopacers: