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xBulletproof
06-28-2012, 03:24 PM
I have seen some silly articles written by psuedo-NBA experts claiming we will have as much as 21 million in cap space. Getting people all excited about signing Eric Gordon, or a sign and trade where we absorb his salary. Here's the reality.

Currently under contract:

Granger: $13,058,606

West: $10,000,000

George: $2,574,120

Hansbrough: $3,055,259

Pendergraph: $1,500,000

Collison: $2,319,344

Dahntay: $2,900,000

====

Total of 35.58 million

If we pick up Lance's option, which I'm assuming we have or will, that adds another million. 36.5 million total.

Then to be able to resign Hibbert we have to keep his 6.4 million dollar cap hold on the books. To sign George Hill we have to keep his 3.8 million dollar cap hold. Our draft pick currently has about a million dollar cap hold. Add that all up and you get .....

46.5 million in cap holds and salaries. Based on last years salary cap that gives us 11 million in cap space. The trick is, to even use that space, any move you make has to be made BEFORE you sign Hibbert or Hill. Otherwise it's mostly, or all gone.

xBulletproof
06-28-2012, 03:27 PM
Yes, that's renouncing everyone except Hill and Hibbert.

That's an assumption on my part, but you're right. If they're thinking about keeping Barbosa they'll have no cap space.

pacer4ever
06-28-2012, 03:30 PM
Yes, that's renouncing everyone except Hill and Hibbert.

That's an assumption on my part, but you're right. If they're thinking about keeping Barbosa they'll have no cap space.

ok just making sure renouncing Barbosa is a no brainier I see 0 way we don't renounce him even if we wanted him back.

xBulletproof
06-28-2012, 03:31 PM
Agreed. Which is why it didn't even cross my mind that someone would ask that. :laugh:

CableKC
06-28-2012, 03:33 PM
I have seen some silly articles written by psuedo-NBA experts claiming we will have as much as 21 million in cap space. Getting people all excited about signing Eric Gordon, or a sign and trade where we absorb his salary. Here's the reality.

Currently under contract:

Granger: $13,058,606

West: $10,000,000

George: $2,574,120

Hansbrough: $3,055,259

Pendergraph: $1,500,000

Collison: $2,319,344

Dahntay: $2,900,000

====

Total of 35.58 million

If we pick up Lance's option, which I'm assuming we have or will, that adds another million. 36.5 million total.

Then to be able to resign Hibbert we have to keep his 6.4 million dollar cap hold on the books. To sign George Hill we have to keep his 3.8 million dollar cap hold. Our draft pick currently has about a million dollar cap hold. Add that all up and you get .....

46.5 million in cap holds and salaries. Based on last years salary cap that gives us 11 million in cap space. The trick is, to even use that space, any move you make has to be made BEFORE you sign Hibbert or Hill. Otherwise it's mostly, or all gone.
Thanks. Can you also clear up what the MAX Contract Offer that Hibbert can get from both the Pacers and any other Team?

I recall seeing that it was something that started roughly around $13-14 mil from D0NT_SH00T_ME, then others said that it was closer to something starting at $15 mil.

Speed
06-28-2012, 03:34 PM
Is there a Free Agent to be had for that amount? I know Dwest is off next year, anyone else?

Heisenberg
06-28-2012, 03:40 PM
Thanks. Can you also clear up what the MAX Contract Offer that Hibbert can get from both the Pacers and any other Team?

I recall seeing that it was something that started roughly around $13-14 mil from D0NT_SH00T_ME, then others said that it was closer to something starting at $15 mil.Roy can sign for 25% of the cap. Cap's 58 million, so Roy's max is 14.5 million.

tmhall11
06-28-2012, 03:41 PM
More reasons to think a sign and trade is coming, rather than just a straight up FA signing...

ballism
06-28-2012, 03:42 PM
And it could be closer to 10 mil in cap as Hill's cap hold is quite possibly over 5 mil.
It's hard to say for sure ---the Spurs leverage a ton of incentives into rookie contracts, so GH salary size gets reported quite differently.


Thanks. Can you also clear up what the MAX Contract Offer that Hibbert can get from both the Pacers and any other Team?

I recall seeing that it was something that started roughly around $13-14 mil from D0NT_SH00T_ME, then others said that it was closer to something starting at $15 mil.

~12.9 based on the current numbers, but IIRC the numbers for next year would put it at ~13.4 mil.


Roy can sign for 25% of the cap. Cap's 58 million, so Roy's max is 14.5 million.

It's a little less than 25%, they use different definitions of "cap" for calculating max salary size and for calculating team cap space.

5_7_Clash
06-28-2012, 03:54 PM
Thanks. Can you also clear up what the MAX Contract Offer that Hibbert can get from both the Pacers and any other Team?

I recall seeing that it was something that started roughly around $13-14 mil from D0NT_SH00T_ME, then others said that it was closer to something starting at $15 mil.

Didn't Mike Wells mention in the chat today that the max for Hibbert was $16.5 mil? I could be wrong.

Heisenberg
06-28-2012, 03:54 PM
It's a little less than 25%, they use different definitions of "cap" for calculating max salary size and for calculating team cap space.
can't keep anything simple. not like it's a multi-billion dollar business or something.

5_7_Clash
06-28-2012, 03:58 PM
Comment From Alan
How high will the Pacers go in re-signing Roy Hibbert?
12:21

IndyStarSports:
They want to avoid signing Hibbert to a max deal - $16 million a year - but they may have to because there are number of teams looking for a center - Dallas and Houston - to name two of them. The Big Fella is probably worth about $13.5-14 million a year. But he has all the leverage because he made the All Star team last season and lack of true centers in the league
12:21

Wells says $16 million is the max for Hibbert.

ballism
06-28-2012, 04:01 PM
Wells says $16 million is the max for Hibbert.

that's for veterans with at least 7 years of experience.

CableKC
06-28-2012, 04:03 PM
Okay...now all you..and even Wells is confusing me.

What is the likely starting # going to be for Hibbert on a MAX Contact?

Are we going with ballism's or Heisenberg's #?

5_7_Clash
06-28-2012, 04:09 PM
After a little research, it looks like ballism has the right formula. (Sorry, Heisenberg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Salary_Cap

The maximum amount of money a player can sign for is contingent on the number of years that player has played and the total of the salary cap. The maximum salary of a player with 6 or fewer years of experience is either $9,000,000 or 25% of the total salary cap (2010–11: $14,511,000), whichever is greater. For a player with 7-9 years of experience, the maximum is $11,000,000 or 30% of the cap (2010–11: $17,413,200), and for a player with 10+ years of experience, the maximum is $14,000,000 or 35% of the cap (2010–2011: $20,315,400).[4]

Under the 2011 CBA, maximum salaries, as expressed as a percentage of the cap, remained mostly unchanged. However, a player coming off his rookie scale contract is eligible to sign for 30% of the cap if he appeared in two All-Star Games, was named to an All-NBA Team twice, or was named MVP. This was dubbed the "Derrick Rose Rule" after the 2011 MVP.[5] In addition, newly signed contracts now have a maximum duration of five years for players with Bird rights and four years for all other players (including sign-and-trade acquisitions).[6] Every team is allowed one "designated player" who receives a five-year maximum extension on his rookie scale contract.[7]

Heisenberg
06-28-2012, 04:10 PM
After a little research, it looks like ballism has the right formula. (Sorry, Heisenberg)
fine with me, I like ballism's answer a lot more

pacergod2
06-28-2012, 04:11 PM
Hibbert, 5 years, $55M.

wintermute
06-28-2012, 04:11 PM
I have seen some silly articles written by psuedo-NBA experts claiming we will have as much as 21 million in cap space. Getting people all excited about signing Eric Gordon, or a sign and trade where we absorb his salary. Here's the reality.

Currently under contract:

Granger: $13,058,606

West: $10,000,000

George: $2,574,120

Hansbrough: $3,055,259

Pendergraph: $1,500,000

Collison: $2,319,344

Dahntay: $2,900,000

====

Total of 35.58 million

If we pick up Lance's option, which I'm assuming we have or will, that adds another million. 36.5 million total.

Then to be able to resign Hibbert we have to keep his 6.4 million dollar cap hold on the books. To sign George Hill we have to keep his 3.8 million dollar cap hold. Our draft pick currently has about a million dollar cap hold. Add that all up and you get .....

46.5 million in cap holds and salaries. Based on last years salary cap that gives us 11 million in cap space. The trick is, to even use that space, any move you make has to be made BEFORE you sign Hibbert or Hill. Otherwise it's mostly, or all gone.

Mostly right. You're forgetting the cap hold for our first rounder (~$900k) and a couple of roster charges (adds up to about $1m). Or you can look at count55's detailed post here, which also considers scenarios where we can get more cap space:

http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/2012/05/pacers-offseason-post-1-how-much-money-do-they-have-to-add-player/

For Hibbert's MAX, again it's probably best just to refer to count55's numbers (above link). Hibbert's starting salary can be at most $13.7m, and if Pacers give him a full 5 year with max raises deal, it could go up to a 5 year $78.6m contract, or roughly $15.7m per year.

Another team can give him the same MAX starting salary, but is limited to 4 years and lower raises. The most another team can offer is a 4 year $58.4m deal, or roughly $14.7m per year.

wintermute
06-28-2012, 04:14 PM
Hibbert, 5 years, $55M.

Supposedly bumped up a little next year, according to count's article. I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere, but he's as reliable a source as any when it comes to cap matters.

CableKC
06-28-2012, 04:15 PM
For Hibbert's MAX, again it's probably best just to refer to count55's numbers (above link). Hibbert's starting salary can be at most $13.7m, and if Pacers give him a full 5 year with max raises deal, it could go up to a 5 year $78.6m contract, or roughly $15.7m per year.

Another team can give him the same MAX starting salary, but is limited to 4 years and lower raises. The most another team can offer is a 4 year $58.4m deal, or roughly $14.7m per year.
I'd rather have the Rockets offer a MAX contract and then match that 4 year deal than a MAX contract coming from the Pacers for 5 years.

ballism
06-28-2012, 04:29 PM
After a little research, it looks like ballism has the right formula. (Sorry, Heisenberg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Salary_Cap

wikipedia seems wrong here, though.


Mostly right. You're forgetting the cap hold for our first rounder (~$900k) and a couple of roster charges (adds up to about $1m).
i believe he accounted for that.
except one roster charge, but that charge doesn't really matter (when you make an offer to Eric Gordon, that charge "turns" into cap space anyway).
i'd just put a question mark on George Hill's cap hold size, but i doubt we can know that for sure.

Really?
06-28-2012, 04:29 PM
Didn't Mike Wells mention in the chat today that the max for Hibbert was $16.5 mil? I could be wrong.

He was wrong and did not know what he was talking about, not the first time that has happened...

Really?
06-28-2012, 04:30 PM
Hibbert, 5 years, $55M.

Yeah that probably won't get it done...

5_7_Clash
06-28-2012, 04:40 PM
wikipedia seems wrong here, though.

Which part seems wrong?

xBulletproof
06-28-2012, 04:47 PM
Mostly right. You're forgetting the cap hold for our first rounder (~$900k) and a couple of roster charges (adds up to about $1m).

2nd to last paragraph. It's there. :p

DieHard
06-28-2012, 04:51 PM
So we have right around 11 million to offer another teams free agents, but we can go over the cap to sign our own guys, right? The trouble is getting a deal done before the cap is used up on Roy and Hill. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.

ballism
06-28-2012, 04:53 PM
Which part seems wrong?

basically, where ever it says "X% of the total salary cap", it's not quite true, since the NBA doesn't really use "salary cap" for that calculation. Rather, they use a different "cap" definition there. It's smaller than "salary cap".

So max salary numbers are smaller too, compared to the wikipedia ones. 12.9, 15.5 and 18.1 mil instead of 14.5, 17.4 and 20.3 mil, respectively.

It's pretty messed up that they use the word "cap" in different ways. But I suppose it's pretty neat during the lockout, when you want to convince players that you are offering more than you really are.

xBulletproof
06-28-2012, 04:56 PM
Maybe you could run the math and find out, but I would guess the 'cap' that they use to figure the players salaries is the minimum a team must spend. Not the actual salary cap.

Just a guess so it could be off, but it makes sense to me.

wintermute
06-28-2012, 05:00 PM
2nd to last paragraph. It's there. :p

Oops :blush:

But you did miss the roster charges :-p One minimum salary hold for each empty roster spot below 12. And ballism is right, it should be one roster charge, not 2. It does matter because you have to account for it *before* using the cap space.

wintermute
06-28-2012, 05:11 PM
Maybe you could run the math and find out, but I would guess the 'cap' that they use to figure the players salaries is the minimum a team must spend. Not the actual salary cap.

Just a guess so it could be off, but it makes sense to me.

Nah, it's a bit higher than the spending floor. Here's the relevant bit (from count55, again):

“For purposes of this Section 7 only, the Salary Cap shall be calculated in accordance with Article VII, Section 2, except that the percentage of Projected BRI to be utilized for such calculation shall be 42.14% for all Salary Cap Years. Notwithstanding the foregoing, (i) the Salary Cap for the 2011-12 Salary Cap Year for purposes of this Section 7 only will be $51.689 million, and (ii) the Salary Cap for the 2012-13 Salary Cap Year for purposes of this Section 7 only will equal the greater of (x) the Salary Cap as calculated pursuant to this Section 7(f), and (y) $54.675 million.”

Not having access to the rest of the CBA, I have no idea of the context of how the magic numbers (42.14%, $51.689m, and $54.675m) are chosen.

ballism
06-28-2012, 05:17 PM
Oops :blush:

But you did miss the roster charges :-p One minimum salary hold for each empty roster spot below 12. And ballism is right, it should be one roster charge, not 2. It does matter because you have to account for it *before* using the cap space.

it matters if we are doing certain trades. e.g., if we want to take on money by trading West for Pau Gasol, that roster charge has to be accounted for before the trade.

if we are extending an offer sheet to a free agent like Gordon, that offer sheet will count instead of the roster charge.

ballism
06-28-2012, 05:53 PM
Not having access to the rest of the CBA, I have no idea of the context of how the magic numbers (42.14%, $51.689m, and $54.675m) are chosen.

I suspect they simply wanted to bring the "typical" veteran max down from ~17.5 mil to 15.5 mil.
15.5 mil / 30% = a bit under $51.7 mil
And then keep that proportion in the future, more or less, with all those other numbers.

They could've done it in an easier, more straightforward way.
But they probably didn't want all the big name max players making a fuss about it in November.
It was easier to get to that 15.5 mil by creating a few magic numbers and changing some definitions in the negotiations room. Rather than changing the main formula that everyone will notice.

xBulletproof
06-28-2012, 05:57 PM
Oops :blush:

But you did miss the roster charges :-p One minimum salary hold for each empty roster spot below 12. And ballism is right, it should be one roster charge, not 2. It does matter because you have to account for it *before* using the cap space.

Haha, well I wasn't trying to be perfect. I literally decided and made this thread in 5 minutes or so. I just wanted to give people a realistic general idea. Reading some of these articles kept saying we would have 21 mil in cap space, as if we weren't going to keep our rights to Hibbert and Hill. Just irked me a bit.

Pacerized
06-28-2012, 09:12 PM
No offense, but this subject has been beat to death.
We have about 10-11 mil in cap space but we still have a very easy path to offer a max contract if we want to. Much easier in fact then what Dallas has to deal with. I have almost no doubt that we'll renounce everyone except Hibbert and Hill, and if we wanted to make a move for Williams then Hill could also be renounced. That along with moving Jones and or DC, which should be easy to do, and we have the space if needed. If we're not going to go after Williams then the space we already have is enough to go after Nash and we could still move DC for an upgraded bench player at the 4/5. With what the team has to work with we should be able to significantly improve this offseason. We won't simply re-sign our own free agents.