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ballism
06-28-2012, 04:34 AM
in the spoiler.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2012/story?id=8105981&_slug_=nba-mock-draft-version-10&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fdraft2012%2fstory%3fid%3d8105981%26_slug_%3dnba-mock-draft-version-10

Happy Draft Day. This year, I think the NBA has something really crazy in store for all of us.

Like every year, as of midnight ET a number of teams reported that they were still debating between three or four prospects on their boards. Agents and players are wringing their hands right now. No one knows who's going where.

So, this year's NBA draft should be fun. And the mock draft? It's hard to predict which players teams will select when they haven't decided themselves, but we're going to try. And then try again a little later in the day. And then try again right before the draft.

In other words, check back often for versions 10.1, 10.2, 10.3 as we continue to collect information on who will go where.

After talking to numerous NBA team sources, here's our best stab at how the draft will play out Thursday night.


[#1] New Orleans

Anthony Davis
Position: PF
Height: 6-foot-11
Weight: 222 pounds
Age: 19
School: Kentucky
Analysis: Rejoice Hornets fans. Players like Davis come along about once or twice a decade. You'll have to be patient with both him and the franchise, but the upside is there for some sort of Tim Duncan/Kevin Garnett hybrid. With plenty of cap room to sign Eric Gordon and another significant free agent, plus the No. 10 pick -- they won't be great next season, but they're building a rock-solid foundation.
Trade Scenarios: Are you kidding me? Hornets' Big Board (team priorities, according to sources):
1. Anthony Davis


Charlotte

Thomas Robinson
Position: PF
Height: 6-foot-9
Weight: 244 pounds
Age: 21
School: Kansas
Analysis: The Bobcats need help everywhere. They don't have a starting-caliber player on their roster right now. Robinson will be the first. He's tough, physical and he's a winner. Remember, he led a very mediocre Kansas team to the national championship game.
Trade Scenarios: There are plenty. The Bobcats' asking price is high. They would love to get their hands on multiple young assets or a young veteran who could be a star. There are two in particular to watch. The Cavs could offer them their two first-round picks, Nos. 4 and 24, for the second pick. The Thunder could offer them James Harden to move into No. 2. In either case the Cavs and Thunder would select Bradley Beal at No. 2. Bobcats' Big Board:
1. Trade
2. Thomas Robinson
3. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
4. Harrison Barnes


Washington

Bradley Beal
Position: SG
Height: 6-foot-5
Weight: 202 pounds
Age: 19
School: Florida
Analysis: The Wizards made the first big trade of the offseason, sending Rashard Lewis and the 46th pick to New Orleans for Emeka Okafor and Trevor Ariza. With the deal, the Wizards essentially upgraded their front court -- Okafor likely will be their starting 5, Nene Hilario their starting 4 and Ariza their starting 3.
With John Wall running the point, that leaves them with one big hole at the 2. I think this makes Beal a no-brainer for the Wizards, who are lacking a lights-out perimeter shooter. He's a perfect fit for this new roster. Trade Scenarios: If the Wizards believe they are in danger of losing Beal to a team moving up in the draft, don't be surprised if they offer the Bobcats the No. 32 pick to move up one spot. The Wizards might also entertain a James Harden offer from the Thunder for Beal. Finally, if Beal is off the board, the Wizards have talked to several teams about moving down to Nos. 5, 7, 8 and 9. Wizards' Big Board:
1. Bradley Beal
2. Harrison Barnes
3. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
4. Thomas Robinson


Cleveland

Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
Position: SF
Height: 6-foot-8
Weight: 233 pounds
Age: 18
School: Kentucky
Analysis: The Cavs need both a starting 2 and a starting 3. This is a toss-up between Kidd-Gilchrist and Barnes. If they choose MKG they get a hard-working winner who can grow with Kyrie Irving. They were teammates in high school and won a state championship together. While Kidd-Gilchrist still needs a lot of polish on his offensive game, his motor, toughness, defensive pedigree and willingness to work on his game make him a great pick for the Cavs.
Trade Scenarios: Ideally, the Cavs would like to move up to the No. 2 spot to grab Beal. If they did the trade, the Bobcats would take Thomas Robinson here. But the price is high and they may not want to give up the 24th pick. The Cavs have also explored adding a second pick in the 8-to-12 range, according to sources. Dion Waiters and Terrence Ross are both candidates in that range. Cavs' Big Board:
1. Bradley Beal
2. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
3. Harrison Barnes
4. Dion Waiters
5. Terrence Ross


Sacramento

Andre Drummond
Position: C
Height: 7-foot-0
Weight: 279 pounds
Age: 18
School: UConn
Analysis: The Kings aren't in love with anyone here if this scenario plays out this way. Sources say that the Kings are still confident they'll make a deal with the Rockets (who covet Drummond). If they don't, sources say GM Geoff Petrie is now leaning toward taking Drummond over Barnes. He feels it's a more tradable chip down the road and the team needs a shot-blocker (the one thing Drummond does well now) next to DeMarcus Cousins.
Trade Scenarios: By now the whole world knows the Rockets are aggressively trying to move up and get this pick. Houston's latest offer (Kyle Lowry and the No. 16 pick) was rejected. But you can expect the Rockets to keep plugging away until they get something done. The Rockets aren't the only team trying to get here. The Lakers and Hawks have also tried to convince Sacramento to part with its pick. Kings' Big Board:
1. Thomas Robinson
2. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
3. Andre Drummond
4. Harrison Barnes
5. John Henson


[#6] Portland (via Nets)


Damian Lillard
Position: PG
Height: 6-foot-3
Weight: 189 pounds
Age: 21
School: Weber State
Analysis:The Blazers need a point guard and a big man. They'll have an easy choice here if Drummond goes at No. 5. Lillard is a steady, athletic guard who can shoot the lights out and get to the rim. He had a stellar workout in Portland in front of Paul Allen that really sealed the deal. Trade Scenarios: GM Neil Olshey told Portland reporters on Wednesday night that it's unlikely that the team will trade either its picks at Nos. 6 or 11. Blazers' Big Board:
1. Damian Lillard
2. Dion Waiters
3. Andre Drummond


Golden State

Dion Waiters
Position: SG
Height: 6-foot-4
Weight: 221 pounds
Age: 20
School: Syracuse
Analysis: Still not sure which way this goes, folks. Jerry West is a big fan of Dion Waiters. Owner Joe Lacob isn't sure if they can pass on the size and potential of Andre Drummond, if he doesn't go at No. 6. GM Bob Meyers thinks Harrison Barnes would be a steal here. I usually pick the owner in these types of fights. … Then again, this is Jerry West you're talking about.
If it's Waiters, I think it's a great fit for the Warriors. Both Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson are primarily jump shooters. Adding Waiters to their backcourt gives them a guy who can get to the basket at will. Sort of a Monta Ellis player at a fraction of the price. Trade Scenarios: The Warriors have discussed moving both up and down in the draft. Here's the most compelling scenario: If Andre Drummond or Lillard falls to No. 7, don't be surprised if the Warriors trade No. 7 to the Rockets for pick Nos. 12 and 18. The Warriors believe there's still a lot of value down there, and the Rockets covet both Drummond and Lillard. Warriors' Big Board:
1. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
2. Trade
3. Dion Waiters
4. Harrison Barnes
5. Andre Drummond


Toronto

Harrison Barnes
Position: SF
Height: 6-foot-8
Weight: 228 pounds
Age: 20
School: North Carolina
Analysis: This is actually Plan B for the Raptors and it's a great one for them. They need shooting and looked at a number of veteran small forwards at this spot. They really like Barnes, and he's a very easy fit for them. This is a home-run scenario for Toronto.
Trade Scenarios: The Raptors have discussed getting a veteran small forward or point guard here. There has been talk that they would like the Rockets' Kyle Lowry, but they want to keep their salary flexibility going into the summer. They've also explored moving up to No. 5 to get their hands on Waiters or Barnes. Raptors' Big Board:
1. Dion Waiters
2. Harrison Barnes
3. Damian Lillard
4. Austin Rivers
5. Jeremy Lamb


Detroit

John Henson
Position: PF
Height: 6-foot-10
Weight: 216 pounds
Age: 21
School: North Carolina
Analysis: The Pistons, who desperately need size in the middle, are holding their breath that Drummond slides this far. If the Kings don't take him at No. 5, he just might. They like John Henson, too. They need length, athleticism and shot-blocking -- Henson provides all three.
Trade Scenarios: The Pistons have flirted with the idea of moving up to secure Drummond, but it's more likely they stay at No. 9. Pistons' Big Board:
1. Thomas Robinson
2. Andre Drummond
3. John Henson
4. Tyler Zeller
5. Perry Jones


New Orleans
(via Wolves)

Austin Rivers
Position: SG
Height: 6-foot-5
Weight: 203 pounds
Age: 19
School: Duke
Analysis: Hornets coach Monty Williams is a fan of Rivers, and Rivers really wants to be in New Orleans. The question is whether he can play alongside Eric Gordon. The Hornets think Rivers can be a point guard at the next level and are willing to try it.
Trade Scenarios: The Hornets tried to move down a few spots and get multiple mid-first-round picks, but so far they've been shut down. Hornets' Big Board:
1. Damian Lillard
2. Andre Drummond
3. Austin Rivers
4. Jeremy Lamb
5. Kendall Marshall


[#11] Portland

Tyler Zeller
Position: C
Height: 7-foot-0
Weight: 247 pounds
Age: 22
School: North Carolina
Analysis: If the Blazers go with a guard at No. 6, don't be surprised if they go big with their other selection. Zeller isn't a sexy pick, but he is capable of playing right now, has solid size for his position and runs the floor well.
Trade Options: See Blazers comment at No. 6. Blazers' Big Board:
1. Dion Waiters
2. Austin Rivers
3. Tyler Zeller
4. Jeremy Lamb
5. Terrence Ross


Houston (via Bucks)

Meyers Leonard
Position: C
Height: 7-foot-1
Weight: 250 pounds
Age: 20
School: Illinois
Analysis: The Rockets agreed to trade Samuel Dalembert and the 14th pick to the Milwaukee Bucks for Shaun Livingston, Jon Leuer, Jon Brockman and the 12th pick, a league source told ESPN.com.
I seriously doubt the Rockets will actually be selecting here on draft night. However, if they do, I think they'll take the best big man available. Leonard may be a project, but there's upside here and the team really doesn't have anything in the middle. Trade Scenarios: The Rockets are trying to package picks 12, 16 and 18 and Kyle Lowry to get multiple top-10 picks to offer to the Magic for Dwight Howard. The Warriors, at No. 7, could be a serious target with this pick. Rockets' Big Board:
1. Tyler Zeller
2. Meyers Leonard
3. Perry Jones
4. Moe Harkless


Phoenix

Jeremy Lamb
Position: SG
Height: 6-foot-5
Weight: 179 pounds
Age: 20
School: UConn
Analysis: The Suns need just about everything, so they can afford to take the best player available. But Lamb hits a sweet spot for them at the 2-guard position. They didn't think he'd be available here and he gives them length and shooting.
Trade Scenarios: It's been pretty quiet in Phoenix. Suns' Big Board:
1. Dion Waiters
2. Austin Rivers
3. Jeremy Lamb
4. Kendall Marshall
5. Arnett Moultrie


Milwaukee (via Rockets)

Terrence Ross
Position: SG
Height: 6-foot-7
Weight: 197 pounds
Age: 21
School: Washington
Analysis: The Bucks have moved down two spots in the draft, but it shouldn't dramatically effect which player they take. In fact, now that they've added Samuel Dalembert, they have more freedom to draft a shooter at the wing positions. Ross worked out for the Bucks on Tuesday, and while I don't think it was a game-changer, they might opt to take him if Tyler Zeller and Lamb are gone.
Trade Scenarios: The Bucks just pulled off a trade to get Dalembert and move down two spots in the draft. Think they're probably done. Bucks' Big Board:
1. Tyler Zeller
2. Jeremy Lamb
3. Terrence Ross
4. Terrence Jones
5. Meyers Leonard


Philadelphia

Arnett Moultrie
Position: PF
Height: 6-foot-11
Weight: 223 pounds
Age: 21
School: Mississippi State
Analysis: The Sixers really need size and rebounding in their front court. Moultrie led the SEC in rebounding and is super bouncy. He also has a solid face-the-basket game. He should be a good fit in Philly.
Trade Scenarios: They've been looking for a spot higher in the first round to nab Terrence Ross. Sixers' Big Board:
1. Terrence Ross
2. Jeremy Lamb
3. Arnett Moultrie
4. Perry Jones
5. Terrence Jones


[#16] Houston (via Knicks)

Perry Jones III
Position: PF
Height: 6-foot-11
Weight: 234 pounds
Age: 20
School: Baylor

Analysis: Jones might be the toughest player in the draft to project right now. Everyone is both scared to take him and scared not to take him. (I've heard the same assessment from a number of NBA GMs the past few weeks.)
Whichever GM first overcomes his fear gets a super-athletic, 6-foot-11 forward who lacks the motor or toughness teams usually look for in a big man. But at some point, the reward outweighs the risk, and that calculation probably starts here. Trade Scenarios: See comment in Pick 12. Rockets' Big Board:
1. Perry Jones
2. Moe Harkless
3. Kendall Marshall


Dallas

Terrence Jones
Position: PF
Height: 6-foot-10
Weight: 252 pounds
Age: 20
School: Kentucky
Analysis: It would be tough to pass on Jones here. His versatility, rebounding and shot-blocking would all be welcome in Big D.
Trade Scenarios: The Mavs are another team that has been actively exploring moving up in the draft the past few days. Mavs' Big Board:
1. John Henson
2. Terrence Jones
3. Kendall Marshall
4. Royce White


Rockets (from Wolves via Jazz)

Moe Harkless
Position: SF
Height: 6-foot-9
Weight: 207 pounds
Age: 19
School: St. John's
Analysis: Adding Harkless to their stock of young players could be a smart move. Lots of teams have shown interest in Harkless. He's young, athletic, has great upside and can defend multiple positions. He's sort of a young Trevor Ariza.
Trade Scenarios: See comment at No. 12. Rockets' Big Board:
1. Perry Jones
2. Moe Harkless
3. Kendall Marshall
4. Jared Sullinger



Orlando

Marquis Teague
Position: PG
Height: 6-foot-2
Weight: 180 pounds
Age: 19
School: Kentucky

Analysis: Lead point guard Jameer Nelson is expected to opt out of his contract this summer, and given the rebuilding direction the Magic are going in, the team may not want to pay him.
Teague, had he stayed in school another year, would've been a likely top-10 pick in 2013. A team such as the Magic can't afford to pass on his talent here. Trade Scenarios: Waiting on the Rockets to make their best offer for Superman. Magic Big Board:
1. Marquis Teague
2. Jared Sullinger
3. Terrence Jones
4. Perry Jones
5. Andrew Nicholson



Denver

Kendall Marshall
Position: PG
Height: 6-foot-4
Weight: 198 pounds
Age: 20
School: North Carolina
Analysis: Andre Miller's contract is up with the Nuggets this summer. In most every way, Marshall is the perfect replacement. They have similar builds and games. Although Ty Lawson is the clear starter in Denver, the Nuggets could really use depth at the position.
Trade Scenarios: Chris Broussard has reported that the Nuggets have talked about a swap of Wilson Chandler for the No. 7 pick and Dorell Wright. Nuggets' Big Board:
1. Kendall Marshall
2. Royce White
3. Andrew Nicholson
4. Marquis Teague


[#21] Boston

Royce White
Position: SF
Height: 6-foot-8
Weight: 261 pounds
Age: 21
School: Iowa State
Analysis: I think White is a good fit in Boston. As long as coach Doc Rivers can buy into what White is (a ball handling power forward) and figure out how to play him, he could be a steal at this point in the draft.
Trade Scenarios: It's Danny Ainge. He's talking to everyone. But I think the most likely scenario has them standing pat here. Celtics' Big Board:
1. Royce White
2. Jared Sullinger
3. Andrew Nicholson
4. Quincy Miller
5. Draymond Green


Boston (via Clippers)

Jared Sullinger
Position: PF
Height: 6-foot-9
Weight: 268 pounds
Age: 20
School: Ohio State
Analysis: I'm not sure when the bleeding will end for Sullinger, whose stock is falling now that concerns about his back have every GM in the league a bit skittish.
But since the Celtics have two picks, they can afford to take the risk here. It will be a good one. Sullinger can play and he may be the best low-post scorer in the game. Trade Scenarios: See No. 21. Celtics' Big Board:
See No. 21.


Atlanta

Andrew Nicholson
Position: PF
Height: 6-foot-10
Weight: 234 pounds
Age: 22
School: St. Bonaventure

Analysis: Nicholson's ability to score inside and outside combined with his defensive abilities should be a nice fit in Atlanta -- especially with Josh Smith now on the trading block.
Trade Scenarios: The Hawks are shopping Smith around the league, trying to move up in the lottery. They also have some interest in Pau Gasol, according to sources. The Rockets have also shown interest in Smith. Hawks' Big Board:
1. Royce White
2. Jared Sullinger
3. Andrew Nicholson
4. Evan Fournier
5. Tony Wroten


Cavs (via Lakers)

Fab Melo
Position: C
Height: 7-foot
Weight: 255 pounds
Age: 22
School: Syracuse
Analysis: If the Cavs go with a small forward with their first pick, Melo could be a nice get with No. 24. He's big, athletic and could end up being a terrific shot-blocker. The fact that they have fellow Brazilian Anderson Varejao to mentor him is a bonus.
Trade Scenarios: This pick could be in play if the Cavs trade up to No. 4. Cavs' Big Board:
1. Jared Sullinger
2. Andrew Nicholson
3. Quincy Miller
4. Jeff Taylor



Memphis

Tony Wroten Jr.
Position: PG
Height: 6-foot-6
Weight: 203 pounds
Age: 18
School: Washington
Analysis: The Grizzlies lack great depth at the point guard position behind Mike Conley (unless you're the guy who somehow voted Josh Selby to the all-rookie third team).
Wroten has top-five talent, but he's wild and can't shoot. It might be worth rolling the dice on him. For a team like the Grizzlies, they can't afford to pass on the talent there. Trade Scenarios: Grizzlies have talked with a number of teams about trading out of the first round. Grizzlies' Big Board:
1. Marquis Teague
2. Tony Wroten
3. Evan Fournier


[#26] Indiana

Draymond Green
Position: SF
Height: 6-foot-8
Weight: 236 pounds
Age: 22
School: Michigan State
Analysis: I'm increasingly hearing that the Pacers are very high on Green. He's a smart, tough player who can come in and fill a need immediately for Indiana. Larry Bird has made similar picks in years past and done OK with them. I don't think Green slides past here.
Trade Scenarios: The Pacers have looked to try to get into the top 10. They have a pretty good chip, in Darren Collison, if they want to use it. Tyler Hansbrough is also in play. Pacers' Big Board:
1. Fab Melo
2. Draymond Green
3. Marquis Teague
4. Will Barton
5. Kim English


Miami

Jeff Taylor
Position: SF
Height: 6-foot-7
Weight: 212 pounds
Age: 23
School: Vanderbilt
Analysis: The Heat could use Taylor's elite athletic ability, lock-down defense and spot-up shooting. He can't create his own shot, but no one will ask him to in Miami, making this the perfect spot for him to land.
Trade Scenarios: Heat could be another team that trades out of the first round. Heat Big Board:
1. Draymond Green
2. Fab Melo
3. Festus Ezeli

Oklahoma City

Evan Fournier
Position: SG
Height: 6-foot-7
Weight: 206 pounds
Age: 19
Country: France
Analysis: Fournier is the type of player the Thunder easily could stash for a year or two in Europe. Or, given the high level he has played at in France, he might be able to come in and get minutes for them right away -- especially if the Thunder decide they can't afford to re-sign James Harden this summer.
Trade Scenarios: Thunder are exploring getting to the No. 2 or 3 pick to select Bradley Beal. They are also open to moving out of the draft altogether. Thunder Big Board:
1. Evan Fournier
2. Kostas Papanikolaou
3. Furkan Aldemir


Chicago

Will Barton
Position: SG
Height: 6-foot-6
Weight: 174 pounds
Age: 21
School: Memphis
Analysis: The Bulls are looking at a number of 2-guard options here, but Barton has separated himself from the pack in the past few weeks. He's a terrific scorer and can shoot with range. He just needs to add strength.
Trade Scenarios: The Bulls have been actively trying to move up, but have had no luck so far. Bulls' Big Board:
1. Will Barton
2. Doron Lamb
3. Tyshawn Taylor
4. John Jenkins


Golden State
(via Spurs)


Quincy Miller
Position: SF
Height: 6-foot-10
Weight: 219 pounds
Age: 19
School: Baylor
Analysis: There are a lot of concerns about his knee and what position he'll play in the NBA. But his upside is so high that it might be worth taking a gamble this low in the first round. There's very little risk and a lot of potential reward here.
Trade Scenarios: Warriors have been busy with lots of stuff. Warriors' Big Board:
1. Quincy Miller
2. Kyle O'Quinn
3. Festus Ezeli

Hypnotiq
06-28-2012, 04:37 AM
Please no Draymond Green that would be a sour way to end Larry's job

ballism
06-28-2012, 04:45 AM
It's interesting that we are actually looking into top 10. I assumed mid 1st/late lottery at best.
That #10 for DC+#26 rumor has always seemed a big stretch to me. But who knows.
At least we are ambitious.

Although to be honest, unless it's a top 7 pick, I'd rather have something like #16 and #18 from the Rockets.
#8-10 = someone like Austin Rivers or Dion Waiters
#16-20 = Sullinger, Royce White, Moultrie, maybe PJ3 or Terrence Ross... I'd much rather have two of those.

wintermute
06-28-2012, 06:00 AM
Pacers' Big Board:
1. Fab Melo
2. Draymond Green
3. Marquis Teague
4. Will Barton
5. Kim English


These are the guys that we're rumored to like according to leaks, so I can why Chad thinks this is the Pacers' big board. That said, I hope those leaks turn out to be deliberate misinformation spread by the FO. Wouldn't it be funny if the scouts are backslapping themselves right now over Chad Ford's article ;)

pacersgroningen
06-28-2012, 06:24 AM
Hmm do think it is somewhat interesting that the Kings rejected Lowry+#16 for #5, Lowry is a borderline all-star at this point and would've been, had his season not derailed due to injuries. I can understand though, as they have no real need for a PG, since they made Thomas theirs at the expense of Evans. The trade doesn't work for them, but they would definitely get the most value in this trade. Still they're nowhere close to competing so just stocking up on assets would seem like the way to go.

ballism
06-28-2012, 06:32 AM
Hmm do think it is somewhat interesting that the Kings rejected Lowry+#16 for #5, Lowry is a borderline all-star at this point and would've been, had his season not derailed due to injuries. I can understand though, as they have no real need for a PG, since they made Thomas theirs at the expense of Evans. The trade doesn't work for them, but they would definitely get the most value in this trade. Still they're nowhere close to competing so just stocking up on assets would seem like the way to go.
But if MKG or Robinson fall to #5, it would be a bummer. I'd consider that trade on draft night.

PacerPride33
06-28-2012, 07:57 AM
if barnes does drop to warriors, would u trade him for granger?

Speed
06-28-2012, 08:08 AM
if barnes does drop to warriors, would u trade him for granger?

I'm not sure of the answer, but its occurred to me recently, whats there NOT to like about Barnes. He seems to have everything you'd describe in a guy who could be a potential all star at the next level. Why is he not considered a home run type pick?

Kstat
06-28-2012, 08:11 AM
I'm not sure of the answer, but its occurred to me recently, whats there NOT to like about Barnes. He seems to have everything you'd describe in a guy who could be a potential all star at the next level. Why is he not considered a home run type pick?

....because his handle sucks? Wings that can't dribble generally dont become superstars.

OakMoses
06-28-2012, 08:17 AM
I'm not sure of the answer, but its occurred to me recently, whats there NOT to like about Barnes. He seems to have everything you'd describe in a guy who could be a potential all star at the next level. Why is he not considered a home run type pick?

Because he has all those skills and has only had 2 very good college years.

As an aside, if the Bobcats draft anyone other than Thomas Robinson at #2, would anybody else consider trading them Tyler for #31? I would do it if I could get a chance at a guy like Barton, Machado, or Fournier.

wseward
06-28-2012, 08:17 AM
If we somehow move into the top 10 and end up with either lillard or waiters I will be ecstatic.

Both those players could end up being the best player from this draft outside of anthony davis.

Derek2k3
06-28-2012, 08:28 AM
I'm not sure of the answer, but its occurred to me recently, whats there NOT to like about Barnes. He seems to have everything you'd describe in a guy who could be a potential all star at the next level. Why is he not considered a home run type pick?

Basically, anyone watching him in the tournament last season really didn't like what they saw. The guy shot the ball incredibly poorly, turned it over, made bad plays/decisions etc. It was awful.

Ace E.Anderson
06-28-2012, 08:35 AM
....because his handle sucks? Wings that can't dribble generally dont become superstars.

Danny Granger?.....Actually I think that Barnes will be DG with maybe a little more athleticism.

Sparhawk
06-28-2012, 08:46 AM
-Trade Hans to GS for #30
-Buy OKC #28
-Trade DC + 26 + 30 to Portland for #6 - Draft Lillard
-Draft Quincy Miller at #28

clownskull
06-28-2012, 08:48 AM
Please no Draymond Green that would be a sour way to end Larry's job

i hear ya. i don't want him either. but then again how often has larry taken the guy the experts think he will take?
not too often so- i hope larry fools them again.

Sparhawk
06-28-2012, 08:48 AM
If the Pacers don't make any moves and draft Green, I'll seriously chuck the remote at the TV.

Trader Joe
06-28-2012, 08:49 AM
-Trade Hans to GS for #30
-Buy OKC #28
-Trade DC + 26 + 30 to Portland for #6 - Draft Lillard
-Draft Quincy Miller at #28

God, this would be the greatest draft ever if we did these 4 things.

Ace E.Anderson
06-28-2012, 08:57 AM
If the Pacers don't make any moves and draft Green, I'll seriously chuck the remote at the TV.

You and just about every other Pacer fan lol. The more I hear we're going to take him, the more I doubt that we do. As a previous poster said, Larry normally surprises people in the draft (Shawne Williams, Tyler, Paul, Roy...none of those guys were expected to be taken by the Pacers)

Speed
06-28-2012, 09:00 AM
Hansbrough is worth more than a late first.

Sparhawk
06-28-2012, 09:12 AM
Hansbrough is worth more than a late first.

I'd hope so too.

I think Cavs #24 + #34 is my best case scenario. Can then trade DC + #26 + #28 for the #6 to take Lillard. & still draft Quincy Miller/Fab Melo at #24. Then #34 take someone else to help deepen the bench like Lamb in case we need a deadeye shooter.

BPump33
06-28-2012, 09:16 AM
Do you mean Hans value to us is worth more than a 1st or his trade value is more than a 1st? I'd be surprised if Charlotte would give us the 1st pick in the 2nd round for him.

Kstat
06-28-2012, 09:17 AM
Hansbrough is worth more than a late first.

Not right now, he isn't.

If he reaches his potential? Sure.

PR07
06-28-2012, 09:35 AM
I'm hoping Draymond Green is just a smokescreen. Nothing against the guy as he seems like a good guy and teammate, but I'd rather see someone with more speed, athleticism, and upside if not pure size.

PacerPenguins
06-28-2012, 09:52 AM
NO DRAYMOND GREEN!!

Really?
06-28-2012, 09:53 AM
First off kind of surprised Bird is making the pick, I understand that he has been there for most of the process, but he is making the start for a new GM and new President, seems a little weird, but I bet they will add a lot of insight on the pick so it may not seem as weird as it seems.



if barnes does drop to warriors, would u trade him for granger?

If he drop to the Warriors then they are taking him over Granger I believe.


These are the guys that we're rumored to like according to leaks, so I can why Chad thinks this is the Pacers' big board. That said, I hope those leaks turn out to be deliberate misinformation spread by the FO. Wouldn't it be funny if the scouts are backslapping themselves right now over Chad Ford's article ;)

Thing is Teague never even came in for a workout, also I am surprised that Quincy Miller is not on this list.


I'm not sure of the answer, but its occurred to me recently, whats there NOT to like about Barnes. He seems to have everything you'd describe in a guy who could be a potential all star at the next level. Why is he not considered a home run type pick?

Too passive, too often and does not play athletic even though he has the ability to.

pacergod2
06-28-2012, 09:54 AM
I'd rather trade #26 and Tyler (and the cap savings for Utah) for Millsap, plus either a swap option on a future first or a second.

pacergod2
06-28-2012, 09:57 AM
Also, Barnes' upside is Granger. Barnes needs to get a lot stronger for the NBA game and he defers to long threes more than he ever considers going to the rack. I would NOT trade Granger for Barnes, as Granger is a veteran and is ready to win now. Plus, he has been loyal to us, so I wouldn't even consider this deal. The only way I would trade Granger at the draft would be for Thomas Robinson (or Davis obviously).

Ace E.Anderson
06-28-2012, 10:04 AM
Thing is Teague never even came in for a workout, also I am surprised that Quincy Miller is not on this list.


He worked out for the Pacers yesterday I do believe.

Jrod Jones
06-28-2012, 10:04 AM
Thing is Teague never even came in for a workout, also I am surprised that Quincy Miller is not on this list.


Teague worked out for us yesterday.

"The Pacers ended their first private workout today with guys they've brought back for a second time. Those players were Draymond Green (Michigan State), Jeff Taylor (Vanderbilt), Kim English (Missouri), and Will Barton (Memphis). They have a final private workout set for tomorrow with two players they haven't brought in yet for a workout.

Check out after the jump the two prospects they will bring in 24 hours before the draft.

Indiana will have in Marquis Teague (Kentucky) and Darius Johnson-Odom (Marquette) in tomorrow. Teague is a favorite of some to draft at 26 and he's expected to go anywhere from 20-30 on draft night. Johnson-Odom is expected to go anywhere from late first to mid second."

http://www.indycornrows.com/2012/6/26/3117153/whos-the-odd-man-out-darren-collison-or-tyler-hansbrough

PacersHomer
06-28-2012, 10:04 AM
Draymond Green doesn't fill a need. We already have some players who aren't any good.

Really?
06-28-2012, 10:07 AM
I think Teague is way more likely the pick if he falls to us than Green.

Jrod Jones
06-28-2012, 10:09 AM
The thing with Teague falling to us is that we would absolutely need to get rid of either Collison or Hill. Collison seems like the obvious choice, but his value on draft night comes earlier then we will be able to know if Teague makes it to us. Regardless I think we should trade Collison + Hansbrough for the best possible draft pick while trying to keep 26 to grab a guy like Teague.

It is very possible that he doesn't make it to us though (I've seen mocks projecting him as high as Orlando)

Really?
06-28-2012, 10:12 AM
The thing with Teague falling to us is that we would absolutely need to get rid of either Collison or Hill. Collison seems like the obvious choice, but his value on draft night comes earlier then we will be able to know if Teague makes it to us. Regardless I think we should trade Collison + Hansbrough for the best possible draft pick while trying to keep 26 to grab a guy like Teague.

It is very possible that he doesn't make it to us though (I've seen mocks projecting him as high as Orlando)

We could always trade Collison for a future first or a couple of 2nd rounders, or 2nd rounder and another player.

3rdStrike
06-28-2012, 10:48 AM
Doesn't Teague seem like a redundant choice? I haven't seen anything from him that suggests his upside is higher than his brother's, and for that we might as well keep Collison.

PR07
06-28-2012, 10:52 AM
If we could somehow trade Collison for an earlier first round pick (#10-18 Range), while holding onto #26 to select Teague, I think it would be a good day for us.

Jrod Jones
06-28-2012, 10:54 AM
Doesn't Teague seem like a redundant choice? I haven't seen anything from him that suggests his upside is higher than his brother's, and for that we might as well keep Collison.

Teague is only redundant if we keep Collison. Drafting Teague allows us to trade Collison, who has substantially more trade value then Teague

Speed
06-28-2012, 10:56 AM
Teague will have to learn the position like any rookie, but doesn't he have more upside in the long run, for sure. Anyone disagree? I guess mainly I'd like to see if Teague can get through a Pick and Roll.

Ace E.Anderson
06-28-2012, 11:02 AM
Teague is only redundant if we keep Collison. Drafting Teague allows us to trade Collison, who has substantially more trade value then Teague

One thing that Teague has that Collison will never have is size. They have roughly the same speed and quickness, with maybe DC having a slight edge. I think the increase in size alone gives Teague a little more potential for defensive purposes. But I agree, we only take Teague if we trade DC.

clownskull
06-28-2012, 11:02 AM
Teague will have to learn the position like any rookie, but doesn't he have more upside in the long run, for sure. Anyone disagree? I guess mainly I'd like to see if Teague can get through a Pick and Roll.

i thought i saw teague was listed at 6-2. if that is the case, then he is definitely bigger than collison. and he does have great quickness. i would be fine with teague.
but please no draymond green!
that would REALLY disappoint me.

ballism
06-28-2012, 11:11 AM
I'd rather trade #26 and Tyler (and the cap savings for Utah) for Millsap, plus either a swap option on a future first or a second.

sounds pretty terrible for Utah.
an above average starter for a mediocre backup and, realistically, a chance to get another backup.
they do save a few mil, but it's not like they need money now, their big summer is 2013.

Dr. Awesome
06-28-2012, 11:15 AM
Basically, anyone watching him in the tournament last season really didn't like what they saw. The guy shot the ball incredibly poorly, turned it over, made bad plays/decisions etc. It was awful.

Watching Barnes play with Marshall, then watching him play without Marshall is like watching two completely different players.

People just don't understand how Marshall makes the other 4 players on the court so much better. Even Lou and Hansbrough would always be a threat if the ball is in Marshall's hands. They interviewed players from UNC and one of them said Marshall will see that a guy is open before the guy himself even realizes it.

Steagles
06-28-2012, 11:24 AM
If we stay at 26 then pick Teague by all means. That doesn't mean not going after a lottery pick, though. I want Marshall. I want him NOW. He is the next Steve Nash.

Ace E.Anderson
06-28-2012, 11:32 AM
If we stay at 26 then pick Teague by all means. That doesn't mean not going after a lottery pick, though. I want Marshall. I want him NOW. He is the next Steve Nash.

Not nearly the shooter, scorer, or crafty enough to get into the lane like Nash. I'm not a huge fan of Nash, but he is a future hall of famer. Marshall would be best served to go to a team that plays with a faster pace, that has an abundance of scorers/finishers that can feed off his passing ability.

If we got Marshall, I wouldn't be too disappointed, but I wouldn't expect him to be GREAT, multiple all-star like Nash

pacers74
06-28-2012, 11:39 AM
i thought i saw teague was listed at 6-2. if that is the case, then he is definitely bigger than collison. and he does have great quickness. i would be fine with teague.
but please no draymond green!
that would REALLY disappoint me.


Teague measured at 6'1" without shoes. Collison measured 6'0.25" without shoes, so you get 3/4 of an inch more with Teague. Teague has a longer reach, but they both had the same standing reach at 8'.0.5".

It looks like their size isn't really that much different.

sav
06-28-2012, 11:46 AM
The Pacers need a Center. Right now they have West, Hansbrough and Pendergraph under contract. Any free agent (including Hibbert) or team (if the Pacers have to trade) knows the Pacers are desparate for a Center. They would have leverage and the Pacers would most likely have to overpay a Center. Drafting a Center will help the Pacers gain leverage. Obvioulsy it would be nice to be able to trade down and get a Tyler Zeller, but even at #26 a Feb Melo or Festus would give s a big body and could give us a few mpg. Draft a Center and then sign Hibbert and Hill.

sav
06-28-2012, 11:49 AM
if barnes does drop to warriors, would u trade him for granger?


The Pacers are not going to trade Granger. They are going to do everything possible to keep the playoff starting five intact. Since Bird is in charge of the draft, Hansbrough will not be traded tonight. Collison, Jones and the #26 pick are the main assets that the Pacers may use in a trade...tonight.

Ace E.Anderson
06-28-2012, 11:57 AM
Teague measured at 6'1" without shoes. Collison measured 6'0.25" without shoes, so you get 3/4 of an inch more with Teague. Teague has a longer reach, but they both had the same standing reach at 8'.0.5".

It looks like their size isn't really that much different.



It's not just DC's height that makes him undersized..it's his, weight. He's like 160, so bigger point guards are able to out muscle him very easily. Teague is 6'2 180 with a 6'7 wingspan and 40.5 Vertical, DC is 6'1 and 165 with a 6'3 wingspan, 33.5 vert.

There is a pretty decent difference in the strength and athleticism department.

CableKC
06-28-2012, 01:04 PM
if barnes does drop to warriors, would u trade him for granger?
No....PURELY for SalaryCap reasons. Trading Granger to the Warriors means that we have to take on either RJeff or Biedrin's Bad Contract just to make the Salaries match up. If it was a straight up #7+Dorell Wright trade for Granger...sure, I'd consider it....but add in RJeff or Biedrins to the the mix...and it's a STRONG NO for me.

CableKC
06-28-2012, 01:07 PM
If we somehow move into the top 10 and end up with either lillard or waiters I will be ecstatic.
Neither will fall past the 8th pick. The Blazers or Raptors seem a likely destination for Lillard and Waiters is getting a lot of buzz from the Warriors camp.

CableKC
06-28-2012, 01:09 PM
-Trade Hans to GS for #30
-Buy OKC #28
-Trade DC + 26 + 30 to Portland for #6 - Draft Lillard
-Draft Quincy Miller at #28
The Blazers wouldn't do that trade. Lillard has WAY MORE upside than DC and is better than anything that they can get at 26 and 30.

PacersHomer
06-28-2012, 01:11 PM
I love Michigan State. They are my 2nd favorite college basketball team after Butler. I admire the hell out of Izzo and their program, but Green is not an NBA player. He's an amazing college basketball player because he is able to offset his size and athleticism issues with his hugely superior basketball IQ, work ethic, and ball handling. However, in the NBA, his basketball IQ isn't going to be enough anymore. When it comes to a team with a starting 5 that appears to be set, I want backups who have an elite physical skill that can help carry the bench. A lot of teams have 3 point shooters come off the bench, good defensive bigs, good volume scorers, we don't have any of that. Our bench is built like a starting lineup, and IMO that is a terrible way to build a team. I think our starters are pretty awesome, and while I'd love to see Eric Gordon and/or Steve Nash added to them, the starters can beat the best teams. The bench is so weak though.

Speed
06-28-2012, 01:13 PM
If the workouts are any indication, Wells said reports are that he got killed yesterday at the Pacers workout.

Comment From Pacer 31
Pacers looking at Teague tonight? He was in for a final workout yesterday.
1:00

IndyStarSports:
I heard Teague got worked over in his workout yesterday. He should have stayed at Kentucky. Bad decision by him. He would have been the man next season for the Wildcats
1:01

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?73421-Mike-Wells-LIVE-CHAT-on-Indy-Star-(12-1p)

CableKC
06-28-2012, 01:18 PM
First off kind of surprised Bird is making the pick, I understand that he has been there for most of the process, but he is making the start for a new GM and new President, seems a little weird, but I bet they will add a lot of insight on the pick so it may not seem as weird as it seems.
I don't get why he's making the pick. Green IS NOT a DW pick.....heck, I don't get the sense that he'd be a KP pick as well. But if the overall philosophy that Bird is laying down that DW will have to follow is to simply "play it safe", then I'd rather draft Jeff Taylor. The only reason why I can see picking Green over another "safe bet" like Taylor is simply because he brings a totally different skillset to the table thatn Taylor does. :shrug:

Either way, I get a real strong "Hansbrough" feel to this pick if Green is chosen. I recall that many were disappointed that the Pacers appeared to have "aimed real low" by drafting Hansbrough...then he came out and played real well...thus surprising many of us....then the rest of the NBA adjusted to his game...and we now see he has more "shortcomings" and have thus "soured" on him. I just have this feeling that we will be going through the same thing with Green is he is the guy that is picked.

Really?
06-28-2012, 01:27 PM
As far as a Center Pacers need to grab a 2nd and get O'Quinn, use the pick on a differnt position, a guy with tons of potential.

The Sleeze
06-28-2012, 01:29 PM
...Either way, I get a real strong "Hansbrough" feel to this pick if Green is chosen...

Me too. I think Green has a better jumper than Hansbrough, but overall they would seem to be similar.

PR07
06-28-2012, 01:30 PM
Wells hints that West isn't getting any younger, and the Pacers could view Draymond Green as the long-term answer? I'm not sure I see it.

Handoverfist
06-28-2012, 01:35 PM
If we could pick up a late 2nd rounder, how would anyone feel about Quincy Acy as a high energy guy off the bench?

The Sleeze
06-28-2012, 01:37 PM
If the workouts are any indication, Wells said reports are that he got killed yesterday at the Pacers workout.

Comment From Pacer 31
Pacers looking at Teague tonight? He was in for a final workout yesterday.
1:00

IndyStarSports:
I heard Teague got worked over in his workout yesterday. He should have stayed at Kentucky. Bad decision by him. He would have been the man next season for the Wildcats
1:01

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?73421-Mike-Wells-LIVE-CHAT-on-Indy-Star-(12-1p)

Maybe he would have been academically ineligible if he went back....I kid, I kid....sort of

Really?
06-28-2012, 01:50 PM
Me too. I think Green has a better jumper than Hansbrough, but overall they would seem to be similar.

They are very different, different attributes and different playing styles.


Wells hints that West isn't getting any younger, and the Pacers could view Draymond Green as the long-term answer? I'm not sure I see it.

Yeah, I already mentioned I am not sure about his basketball sense, Wells that is. But yeah If Draymond is our backup plan for when West leaves then we have big problems in the future.

pacer4ever
06-28-2012, 01:56 PM
a reason I didnt like Teague watched him live playing vs my HS Warren and the kid was a thug in every sense of the word very very inmature at the old Lance Stephenson level. At one point in the game he went over in front of our coach and said **** you watch this *****.

But word is Coach Cal changed him and he doesn't act that way anymore. I liked the way he played last half of the year at UK he moved into my top pgs and would draft him before that I would of passed easily.

I like his game tough and really wants to win I think he would be solid if we let BShaw develop him especially on defense he has the tools to defend he just didnt.

Dakich talking Arnett Moultrie I wouldn't touch him at all. He doesn't defend has 0 motor is soft and not a good teammate I dont get his hype. I also dont see his rebounding translate very well he got boards based on size he didn't really block out and use fundamentals . I guess being 6'11 and being athletically will take you places.

bphil
06-28-2012, 02:06 PM
Me too. I think Green has a better jumper than Hansbrough, but overall they would seem to be similar.

I don't get this sentiment at all. To me, Green and Hans are the exact opposite kind of player. Green is all subtlety and skill while Hans is 100% muscle and crashing around. Green is an excellent passer, has a fantastic nose for the ball, has great hands, is solid at picking and popping, catches and shoots in one very quick, clean motion, has a good back to the basket game with plenty of moves to keep his defender off balance, and has nice handles. Hansbrough has none of that. He just piles into a defender with his shoulder, elbows him in the head, and throws the ball at the basket over and over until it eventually goes in. Green sees everything that's happening on the floor. Hansbrough sees the ball and the basket, and that's it.

I'm not saying I think Green will turn into a great NBA player or anything... I honestly have no clue if he will or not. All I'm saying is the thought that his game is even remotely comparable to Hansbrough's is baffling to me.

CableKC
06-28-2012, 02:12 PM
Wells hints that West isn't getting any younger, and the Pacers could view Draymond Green as the long-term answer? I'm not sure I see it.
Wait, you mean that there's a chance that West could be getting younger but he's not? ;)

Green IS NOT the long-term answer to our PF needs. His ceiling is Ryan Gomes...not much of a ceiling that I'd want to aim for when it comes to our future Starting PF.

Trophy
06-28-2012, 02:15 PM
If we stay at 26 then pick Teague by all means. That doesn't mean not going after a lottery pick, though. I want Marshall. I want him NOW. He is the next Steve Nash.

I like your avatar, BTW and I agree. I've been hoping for Teague at 26, but I'd love to trade up and get Marshall. However, he's much more of a Mark Jackson type of PG than Steve Nash. He isn't the shooter/scorer Nash is.

Either way, if we get a PG, DC will most likely be traded.

Naptown_Seth
06-28-2012, 02:39 PM
These are the guys that we're rumored to like according to leaks, so I can why Chad thinks this is the Pacers' big board. That said, I hope those leaks turn out to be deliberate misinformation spread by the FO. Wouldn't it be funny if the scouts are backslapping themselves right now over Chad Ford's article ;)
Seriously who had the Pacers getting anyone but Tyler in recent years. Granger wasn't going to slip, no hint on trade for Rush or pick of Roy, Paul George only because his talent ranked him in that range but nothing about the Pacers liking him or working him out extra...I don't think even Shawne Williams was an expected pick.

The rumors are actually coming on way too strong for me to believe because if there was a leak this bad someone would be in big trouble. Feels like the Green angle is a bit forced right now.

billbradley
06-28-2012, 02:43 PM
Adrian Wojnarowski: Teams gauging Ohio State's Jared Sullinger believe he won't be selected before No. 20. Despite back problems, there's interest in 1st round.

Read more: http://hoopshype.com/twitter/media.html#ixzz1z7CEm8ZO

The Sleeze
06-28-2012, 02:46 PM
I don't get this sentiment at all. To me, Green and Hans are the exact opposite kind of player. Green is all subtlety and skill while Hans is 100% muscle and crashing around. Green is an excellent passer, has a fantastic nose for the ball, has great hands, is solid at picking and popping, catches and shoots in one very quick, clean motion, has a good back to the basket game with plenty of moves to keep his defender off balance, and has nice handles. Hansbrough has none of that. He just piles into a defender with his shoulder, elbows him in the head, and throws the ball at the basket over and over until it eventually goes in. Green sees everything that's happening on the floor. Hansbrough sees the ball and the basket, and that's it.

I'm not saying I think Green will turn into a great NBA player or anything... I honestly have no clue if he will or not. All I'm saying is the thought that his game is even remotely comparable to Hansbrough's is baffling to me.

I was agreeing with Cable that the pick would be like when we picked Hansbrough and he would probably not be the answer......I wasn't comparing their style of play. I only threw in the jumpshot comment as that might be the one thing that helps Green possibly succeed where Hansbrough is failing, but ultimately I still see Green as not panning out.

billbradley
06-28-2012, 03:23 PM
Change at #26


Analysis: The Pacers had a terrific workout with Melo. They need size, and with Roy Hibbert testing the free agent waters in two days, they may really need size.

Trade Scenarios: The Pacers have looked to try to get into the top 10. They have a pretty good chip in Darren Collison if they want to use it. Tyler Hansbrough is also in play.

wintermute
06-28-2012, 03:42 PM
Seriously who had the Pacers getting anyone but Tyler in recent years. Granger wasn't going to slip, no hint on trade for Rush or pick of Roy, Paul George only because his talent ranked him in that range but nothing about the Pacers liking him or working him out extra...I don't think even Shawne Williams was an expected pick.

The rumors are actually coming on way too strong for me to believe because if there was a leak this bad someone would be in big trouble. Feels like the Green angle is a bit forced right now.

Yup. Even with Tyler, I looked up some old mocks and couldn't find many sites expecting us to nab Hans at 13, with most mocks projected him going later. DX had us picking Lawson, draft.net had us picking Blair.

I remembered some people mocking Paul George to us (but not many - in fact DX and draft.net had Luke Babbitt going to us), but mostly he was a fan favorite on the board.

I don't really buy Green and I don't think it would be Melo either. Someone like Jeff Taylor feels more like it. Or hopefully we'd be opportunistic and nab a higher talent who drops because of injury, etc concerns.

Heisenberg
06-28-2012, 03:44 PM
Pretty positive Chad Ford had us taking Hans

CableKC
06-28-2012, 03:46 PM
Yup. Even with Tyler, I looked up some old mocks and couldn't find many sites expecting us to nab Hans at 13, with most mocks projected him going later. DX had us picking Lawson, draft.net had us picking Blair.

I remembered some people mocking Paul George to us (but not many - in fact DX and draft.net had Luke Babbitt going to us), but mostly he was a fan favorite on the board.

I don't really buy Green and I don't think it would be Melo either. Someone like Jeff Taylor feels more like it. Or hopefully we'd be opportunistic and nab a higher talent who drops because of injury, etc concerns.
Whoever falls on the Pacers Big Board is who we pick.....that Player will be the BPA. Like always, you can count on some Player dropping for one reason or another.

Speed
06-28-2012, 03:47 PM
Ford gets it really close, right before the draft.

Cactus Jax
06-28-2012, 03:53 PM
If the Pacers stay at 26 and Fab Melo is there, I have no doubt the Pacers would take him. Problem is he won't be there at 26.

wintermute
06-28-2012, 03:57 PM
Pretty positive Chad Ford had us taking Hans


Ford gets it really close, right before the draft.

Exactly. Chad Ford is bound to change his mock a few more times before the end.

Really?
06-28-2012, 03:59 PM
Lol,

Who could have imagined at the start of the season that PJIII and Q.Miller would slip all the way to the 20's, well in some projections atleast.

It would be great if both slipped to 26, but I have to say I might still take Miller before PJIII, I think he will have a brighter career as a 3 than PJIII will have as a 4.