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90'sNBARocked
06-25-2012, 01:28 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/blog?name=nba_draft&id=8088068&_slug_=2012-nba-draft-atlanta-hawks-indiana-pacers-team-needs&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fblog%3fname%3dnba_draft%26id%3d8088068%26_slug_ %3d2012-nba-draft-atlanta-hawks-indiana-pacers-team-needs


Thorpe: Draft plans Hawks, Pacers | Magic

Thanks :)

BRushWithDeath
06-25-2012, 02:16 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/blog/_/name/nba_draft/id/8088068/2012-nba-draft-atlanta-hawks-indiana-pacers-team-needs

Should Hawks deal Horford for No. 2 pick?
June, 23, 2012 By David Thorpe

With the 2012 NBA draft less than a week away, we are continuing our look at the draft needs of teams, with an examination of the Hawks and Pacers.

The Atlanta Hawks have a problem, and there's no easy solution. In Al Horford they have a franchise-level center, but Horford also excels at power forward, which actually is his best position. He missed virtually the entire season because of a pectoral injury, yet the Hawks still qualified for the playoffs and made a good showing, helped by Horford's late return.

And therein lies the problem: Atlanta is good enough to stick in the playoff hunt year after year, yet because of high salaries it is stuck because it can't really upgrade with veteran players. The trade market for some of the Hawks' overpaid players such as Joe Johnson and Josh Smith is small. (Although in a league that saw even Gilbert Arenas get traded, a trade market apparently exists for everyone.)

That leaves the draft. But it is hard to see any draft pick cracking the starting lineup for this team as currently constructed. The Hawks do have holes to fill, but a late first-round pick will have a tough time affecting a team that is close to contending but has little salary flexibility.

Trade option

We've avoided talking trades, but for Atlanta, this one would be hard to pass. The Charlotte Bobcats seem primed to move their No. 2 pick, but few teams have players good enough to make that deal. Remember, it's not as if teams are thinking Thomas Robinson is better today, or will be tomorrow, than the player they would be trading away for him -- it's how cheap his salary would be compared to his expected production. Likewise, for Charlotte to close that deal it'd need to get a potential franchise guy with a contract that is in line with the player's age and production.

Trading Al Horford could net the Hawks the No. 2 pick and free up needed cap space.Enter Horford. He immediately improves the Bobcats on both ends of the floor. He becomes their best player, the face of the franchise and an excellent recruiter on the free-agent front. The Hawks then could grab Robinson and use him the way they use Horford (Robinson is very comparable to Horford). I don't expect Robinson to ever be as good as Horford -- who is probably the most underrated player in the league -- but he certainly could end up getting there, or close to that level.

There are numerous ways to complete that trade, with Atlanta possibly getting rid of a bad salary in Smith (bad contract but still a huge talent upgrade for Charlotte) and getting Bismack Biyombo in one scenario. It's a restart for Atlanta, but it's one that gives the Hawks hope for a new beginning as they shed another salary or two while developing their young talent.

Perfect fits: Evan Fournier, Fab Melo

Fournier is perfect for two reasons; he fills a need at shooting guard, and if the Hawks decide to move a veteran salary or two and try for a quick rebuild, they can leave Fournier in Europe for one more season while they tinker with their roster. With Kirk Hinrich and Johnson as the starters, as well as Tracy McGrady, the Hawks are desperate for young legs at that position. Fournier has the size to play some small forward, and he matches up well next to Johnson if Johnson can't be moved.

Melo would give the Hawks an athletic center who can push Horford to his more natural power forward position. He's a great candidate for Horford to mentor (Horford is one of the best leaders in the league), and if the Hawks don't trade Horford, they will eventually trot out two large -- and mobile -- bigs to anchor their defense. If Horford is a full-time power forward, the Hawks easily can live without Smith. Melo gives them that flexibility.

Kind-of fits: Tony Wroten Jr.

I don't love the Hawks taking a young point guard, as I see Jeff Teague continuing to grow into a solid player. They'd be better off with a veteran to bring in off the bench. But Wroten gives them the flexibility of playing Teague with the rookie, as Wroten can defend most NBA 2s. He can also play with Hinrich, and if he learns to play intelligently soon (his decision-making is a big question mark), he can pair with Johnson to form a huge backcourt.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indiana Pacers team needs:

Easily one of the league's deepest teams, the Pacers used their bench to earn the third-most wins in the Eastern Conference and fifth-most overall. Benches, though, have less of an impact in the postseason, as starters play more minutes, which we saw when the Miami Heat took the Pacers apart late in the series despite missing All-Star Chris Bosh.

Drafting at No. 26, Indiana will have some options to help its bench even further, or it'll use the pick and some other player to acquire and upgrade one of its starting spots. Center Roy Hibbert is about to cash in on his terrific season, and all signs point to Indiana keeping him.

Perfect fits: Any center that falls to them

Hibbert really has no one to back him up, one who has legitimate size and speed to play center in the NBA. That can change in the free-agency period, and likely will, but grabbing Melo or Meyers Leonard would be a huge steal for Indiana. However, the likelihood of either falling to the Pacers seems remote.

Quincy Miller has a thin frame, but he can score at will. Kind-of fits: Fournier, Quincy Miller, Jeff Taylor, John Jenkins

Fournier and Taylor can provide solid bench play for a contending team. By season's end they should be guys who can be trusted to play 10 to 12 minutes a game.

Miller and Jenkins, though, deliver something different. Miller has the upside of a much higher player, but teams are scared of the knee injury he suffered a year ago and his thin frame. But it takes a full year before most players return to normal following knee surgery, so it's fair to guess that by midseason, Miller could be playing his best form of basketball, and strength is the easiest thing to add to a player's game. So his frame becomes a non-issue, unless he flat-out does not work hard. No one seems concerned about that, though.

Although Miller has terrific scoring instincts, so does Jenkins, a guy who screams "NBA scorer off the bench." We've seen a few teams earn many wins thanks to a big-time scorer as a sixth man (not including Manu Ginobili and James Harden, who are more than just scorers). The Philadelphia 76ers made the playoffs with their sixth man as their top scorer.

Jenkins probably won't be that guy for an NBA team, but his quick release and confident shooting game suggest someone who can provide big numbers quickly. He'd make a lot of sense in Indiana, especially if the Pacers lose Leandro Barbosa to free agency.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I think Thorpe's interpretation of our depth is way off. And there is no way that the number 2 pick is worth Al Horford.

Trader Joe
06-25-2012, 02:23 PM
Where did this myth of our depth come from? We have one of the better starting 5's in the NBA and one of the worst benches particularly in the front court.

It's looking more and more like Sullinger will drop to us. If he is there at 26, and we don't have anything else lined up, I think we will pick him.

90'sNBARocked
06-25-2012, 02:25 PM
Where did this myth of our depth come from? We have one of the better starting 5's in the NBA and one of the worst benches particularly in the front court.

It's looking more and more like Sullinger will drop to us. If he is there at 26, and we don't have anything else lined up, I think we will pick him.

I think because early in th season our bench was a preceived strength, bu as they began to flutter, now looks as a weakness

Thanks for posting by the way

BRushWithDeath
06-25-2012, 02:26 PM
Where did this myth of our depth come from? We have one of the better starting 5's in the NBA and one of the worst benches particularly in the front court.
I blame Hicks' "99 Problems" remix.

I still don't think Sullinger falls that far but I don't know how serious the injury red flags are. I've seen them knock players farther than anybody would anticipate. Even though it rarely turns out to be an issue. If he's at 26 I take him without question.

ballism
06-25-2012, 02:29 PM
trading Al Horford for #2 just because it saves some money sounds like a horrible idea.

Trader Joe
06-25-2012, 02:31 PM
I blame Hicks' "99 Problems" remix.

I still don't think Sullinger falls that far but I don't know how serious the injury red flags are. I've seen them knock players farther than anybody would anticipate. Even though it rarely turns out to be an issue. If he's at 26 I take him without question.

I mean, it's like no one watched our starting 5 more than hold their own against Miami, while the bench pretty much made a habit of blowing double digit leads in the first half.

Trader Joe
06-25-2012, 02:32 PM
trading Al Horford for #2 just because it saves some money sounds like a horrible idea.

Any time you can trade a 6'11" guy who can play PF or C for the chance to pick a 6'9" (Maybe 6'8", assuming Thomas Robinson would be the pick) guy who dominated one of the worst "major" conferences in America, you have to do it.

Jeremy
06-25-2012, 02:34 PM
trading Al Horford for #2 just because it saves some money sounds like a horrible idea.I disagree because if the Hawks do get that pick they are getting Thomas Robinson or MKG, both of which I think will be better than Horford.

BRushWithDeath
06-25-2012, 02:34 PM
Any time you can trade a 6'11" guy who can play PF or C for the chance to pick a 6'9" (Maybe 6'8", assuming Thomas Robinson would be the pick) guy who dominated one of the worst "major" conferences in America, you have to do it.

Add in that you can include your 26 year old athleticly freakish do it all 3/4 for a one dimensional shot blocking foreign project and it is an absolute no brainer.

Trader Joe
06-25-2012, 02:35 PM
Thomas Robinson will not be better than Horford. MKG might be, but then you're stuck in the same situation you are now and have to move Horford and Josh Smith.

BRushWithDeath
06-25-2012, 02:36 PM
I disagree because if the Hawks do get that pick they are getting Thomas Robinson or MKG, both of which I think will be better than Horford.

I like MKG but I would put almost any amount of money that neither one of those guys ever approaches being as good as Al Horford.

CableKC
06-25-2012, 02:36 PM
I continue to laugh at the notion that we have a deep Team. Sure, in regular season we appeared to have a deep team....but that depth quickly disappeared in the Playoffs.

At most, we were 6 deep....with 3 or 4 other Players that were inconsistent enough to not make that much of a difference on a regular basis ( during the Playoffs ) to really help.

Trader Joe
06-25-2012, 02:37 PM
Another thing, Horford is great and all, but touting him as a "great free agent recruiter" for the Charlotte Bobcats? Uh, what?

Jeremy
06-25-2012, 02:39 PM
I like MKG but I would put almost any amount of money that neither one of those guys ever approaches being as good as Al Horford.

Thomas Robinson will be at least as good as Horford, in my opinion, and I believe MKG will be a better Andre Iguodala. Get back with me in 4-5 years and we'll see which one of us was right.


Another thing, Horford is great and all, but touting him as a "great free agent recruiter" for the Charlotte Bobcats? Uh, what?

Amen, since when is this guy even a second option on offense? Sure, he's a great rebounder, but he's nothing special. Who could he realistically recruit that would want to go to Charlotte?

BringJackBack
06-25-2012, 02:42 PM
We need energetic and hungry young players and smart, yet talented veterans to fill our bench out. We need guys who are going to step it up in the Playoffs. Even if it means limiting our veterans in the regular season or dealing with the highs and lows of young players... Lou Amundsons and Dahntay Jones' aren't going to cut it this time. We need to think larger.

ballism
06-25-2012, 02:43 PM
Another thing, Horford is great and all, but touting him as a "great free agent recruiter" for the Charlotte Bobcats? Uh, what?

maybe he's good at facebook and texting

Jeremy
06-25-2012, 02:46 PM
We need energetic and hungry young players and smart, yet talented veterans to fill our bench out. We need guys who are going to step it up in the Playoffs. Even if it means limiting our veterans in the regular season or dealing with the highs and lows of young players... Lou Amundsons and Dahntay Jones' aren't going to cut it this time. We need to think larger.
Ugh, Lou and Dahntay really do hurt this team. I'd rather us play a second round pick player (if we had one) over those guys. Dahntay doesn't know that he can't shoot and Lou thinks flailing is good defense.

Trader Joe
06-25-2012, 02:47 PM
There are people on here who still hate Dahntay? Dude was our best bench player by far in the playoffs. DC was very good, but still had some real low, lows. Dahntay produced every single time he hit the floor in the playoffs this year.

graphic-er
06-25-2012, 02:47 PM
I would NOT trade Al Horford for #2 pick. I think the analysts completely forget how efficient Horford is. He is a great player. If anything they need to jettison Josh Smith who is very inefficient, and move Horford to the 4. Then draft or sign a legit defensive presence at center.

Jeremy
06-25-2012, 02:51 PM
There are people on here who still hate Dahntay? Dude was our best bench player by far in the playoffs. DC was very good, but still had some real low, lows. Dahntay produced every single time he hit the floor in the playoffs this year.

Doesn't change the fact he can't shoot and he thinks he's Kobe.

Sparhawk
06-25-2012, 02:53 PM
Horford is a beast. His numbers would likely be much much better if he wasn't playing next to the super athletic Josh Smith. I'd love to have either one, but Horford is a proven winner and I'd love to have him next to Hibbert.

I don't think the Hawks move Horford unless they think he's injury prone. They will more than likely move Josh Smith, who has already stated that he wants traded.

CableKC
06-25-2012, 02:57 PM
I think Thorpe's interpretation of our depth is way off. And there is no way that the number 2 pick is worth Al Horford.
Davis is the only Player that is supposed to be a "Franchise Player".....any one beyond Davis is a crapshoot as to whether they would be a "Franchise Player".

Considering Jordan's track record for drafting......trading for a quality Borderline All-Star Starting PF/C...instead of drafting anyone at the 2 spot....would be a very solid move. I'm not saying that drafting anyone at the #2 spot won't be considered a solid move...I can see it being a smart move by adding an experienced veteran Player to the lineup of young Players.

Now, if it was....as Sparhawk suggested....Josh Smith....then I can see some hesitation.....but if the Hawks offered up Horford for the #2 pick....Jordan would be crazy not to do that trade.

Trader Joe
06-25-2012, 03:04 PM
I think you will see teams overpaying for picks in the 10-20 range. There is a lot of talent in this draft, but it is spread out and has question marks. This draft will not be viewed as a bust down the road IMO, but it will be very wonky where you have guys picked between 10-30 being viewed as some of the best players from the draft.

BringJackBack
06-25-2012, 03:07 PM
There are people on here who still hate Dahntay? Dude was our best bench player by far in the playoffs. DC was very good, but still had some real low, lows. Dahntay produced every single time he hit the floor in the playoffs this year.

No? I really liked Dahntay and his defense as a fourth wing, and thought he had his best season here yet. But in the playoffs he averaged about 2 points per game and didn't bring anything extra to the table outside of his defense on Wade. Now that is what he does and he excels at it, but that is a role easily filled.

The only person worth of crap off the bench in the playoffs was Darren Collison with his 9 points per game and 3 assists per game. Tyler Hansbrough 4.4 ppg and 3 rpg, Barbosa 6 ppg on 37% shooting, and Lou Amunson with 2 and 2 a game. That is bad.

Imagine if we re-structure our bench to have George Hill back in it, a third big man who is worthy of being a starter giving us 10+ ppg, a veteran scorer off the bench, and a diamond in the rough rookie?

BRushWithDeath
06-25-2012, 03:12 PM
Now, if it was....as Sparhawk suggested....Josh Smith....then I can see some hesitation.....but if the Hawks offered up Horford for the #2 pick....Jordan would be crazy not to do that trade.

No question. It must not have been clear but I meant there is no way the Hawks should trade Horford for the #2 pick.

Unclebuck
06-25-2012, 03:15 PM
I am consistantly amazed at how the myth that the pacers are "Easily one of the deepest teams in the league" has continued. Pacers are not that deep. They have a very balanced starting 5 but their bench isn't very good. At best out bench is average.

Edit: I realize I am not the first one in this thread to post this, but you would think "experts" would figure it out.

balanced starting fives - I think the Pacers, Hawks (when they are healthy), Celtics are probably the three most balanced. Not suggesting the best - that is a different question. I mean any starting 5 with Wade and Lebron or Westbrook and Durant no matter who the other players are will be near the top.

BRushWithDeath
06-25-2012, 03:18 PM
I am consistantly amazed at how the myth that the pacers are "Easily one of the deepest teams in the league" has continued. Pacers are not that deep. They have a very balanced starting 5 but their bench isn't very good. At best it is average.

Well we did actually play at least 10 guys consistently which is greater than the NBA norm. So we were deep. Unfortunately, 4 of them weren't worth a ****.

Speed
06-25-2012, 03:21 PM
No question. It must not have been clear but I meant there is no way the Hawks should trade Horford for the #2 pick.

They should, preferrably to a team in the West.

ballism
06-25-2012, 04:10 PM
Add in that you can include your 26 year old athleticly freakish do it all 3/4 for a one dimensional shot blocking foreign project and it is an absolute no brainer.

They'll have to trade Smith, as he apparently doesn't want to resign there.
But this whole Thorpe idea is odd. Even more so because Thorpe has always been one of the bigger supporters of 'retooling' when it comes to Atlanta specifically, and also other places like Houston or Portland. This is a major shift from him.

Lance George
06-25-2012, 04:12 PM
Perhaps I'm nutty, but give me the #2 pick in the draft over a career 13 & 9 guy, coming off of surgery, who has 4/$48M left on his contract. I just don't see anything special in Horford. He's an excellent role player, nothing more, and he doesn't make the Hawks significantly better.

If Atlanta's wanting to tear down their treadmill playoff team and start a rebuild-on-the-fly process, shipping soft Al Horford for the #2 pick is a good start, imo.


Any time you can trade a 6'11" guy who can play PF or C for the chance to pick a 6'9" (Maybe 6'8", assuming Thomas Robinson would be the pick) guy who dominated one of the worst "major" conferences in America, you have to do it.

Not quite. You've added an additional inch to Horford and subtracted an inch from Robinson. There's actually only an inch difference between their heights, not the three inches you've claimed.

http://oi46.tinypic.com/2wew6xt.jpg

Robinson is also +2.5" in wingspan, in much better shape coming into the league, and measured out as both quicker and more agile. Add up all their physical tools, and they're pretty close to even. Robinson could probably play center in the NBA, like Horford, but why bother when he has near flawless PF measurements?

Slick Pinkham
06-25-2012, 04:23 PM
We were deep, as in number of players that can help regular season success.

Unfortunately our bench players all have major flaws that are exploited with added intensity, additional game preparation, and tightened rotations of the opposition,
things that are all inherent to playoff basketball.

Lance George
06-25-2012, 04:23 PM
They'll have to trade Smith, as he apparently doesn't want to resign there.
But this whole Thorpe idea is odd. Even more so because Thorpe has always been one of the bigger supporters of 'retooling' when it comes to Atlanta specifically, and also other places like Houston or Portland. This is a major shift from him.

I think it's possible that Atlanta can rebuild on the fly and remain a playoff team.

Remember: Horford missed all but 11 games this past season, yet Atlanta still finished with 40 wins -- equal to 50 wins in an 82-game season. He's not proven to be a crucial piece to their team success, so I don't think moving him sets them back nearly as far as most do.

Thomas Robinson should be NBA-ready and could step in right away and give them solid production, possibly equal to the 13 & 9 Horford typicall gives them. Josh Smith should land them something nice, possibly a natural SF, and they'll still have their starting backcourt in their leading scorer Joe Johnson and an improving Jeff Teague.

Jeremy
06-25-2012, 04:24 PM
Perhaps I'm nutty, but give me the #2 pick in the draft over a career 13 & 9 guy, coming off of surgery, who has 4/$48M left on his contract. I just don't see anything special in Horford. He's an excellent role player, nothing more, and he doesn't make the Hawks significantly better.

If Atlanta's wanting to tear down their treadmill playoff team and start a rebuild-on-the-fly process, shipping soft Al Horford for the #2 pick is a good start, imo.



Not quite. You've added an additional inch to Horford and subtracted an inch from Robinson. There's actually only an inch difference between their heights, not the three inches you've claimed.

http://oi46.tinypic.com/2wew6xt.jpg

Robinson is also +2.5" in wingspan, in much better shape coming into the league, and measured out as both quicker and more agile. Add up all their physical tools, and they're pretty close to even. Robinson could probably play center in the NBA, like Horford, but why bother when he has near flawless PF measurements?You're awesome dude. You got my point across.

ballism
06-25-2012, 04:31 PM
I think it's possible that Atlanta can rebuild on the fly and remain a playoff team.

Remember: Horford missed all but 11 games this past season, yet Atlanta still finished with 40 wins -- equal to 50 wins in an 82-game season. He's not proven to be a crucial piece to their team success, so I don't think moving him sets them back nearly as far as most do.

Thomas Robinson should be NBA-ready and could step in right away and give them solid production, possibly equal to the 13 & 9 Horford typicall gives them. Josh Smith should land them something nice, possibly a natural SF, and they'll still have their starting backcourt in their leading scorer Joe Johnson and an improving Jeff Teague.

Thorpe suggests Horford+Smith for #2+Biyombo. They wouldn't be a playoff team with that, unless something incredible happens. Like Marvin Williams suddenly breaks out and justifies being picked above CP3.

re Horford, i don't agree. they looked scary good before he got injured. a legit top 3 team in the East. After, they were ok, but not the same.

Horford may not be a superstar. but I'd have a hard time naming 20 better players.
he just has no significant flaws. he's not a real 5, but he's a little 'mechanical' offensively when he's playing at the 4 spot, i think his development has suffered in Atlanta in that regard. he's maybe a little too unselfish. that's about it.

i'm not comparing him to Robinson, MKG, Beal, etc, as I don't watch NCAA and I'm not comfortable judging them just from some clips. But I'd have to see them as likely perennial All Stars for me to trade Al Horford.

Justin Tyme
06-25-2012, 04:31 PM
Davis is the only Player that is supposed to be a "Franchise Player".....any one beyond Davis is a crapshoot as to whether they would be a "Franchise Player".

Considering Jordan's track record for drafting......trading for a quality Borderline All-Star Starting PF/C...instead of drafting anyone at the 2 spot....would be a very solid move. I'm not saying that drafting anyone at the #2 spot won't be considered a solid move...I can see it being a smart move by adding an experienced veteran Player to the lineup of young Players.

Now, if it was....as Sparhawk suggested....Josh Smith....then I can see some hesitation.....but if the Hawks offered up Horford for the #2 pick....Jordan would be crazy not to do that trade.


MJ would screw it up somehow. Back out of the deal at the last minute comes to mind.

Jeremy
06-25-2012, 04:37 PM
Davis is the only Player that is supposed to be a "Franchise Player".....any one beyond Davis is a crapshoot as to whether they would be a "Franchise Player".

Considering Jordan's track record for drafting......trading for a quality Borderline All-Star Starting PF/C...instead of drafting anyone at the 2 spot....would be a very solid move. I'm not saying that drafting anyone at the #2 spot won't be considered a solid move...I can see it being a smart move by adding an experienced veteran Player to the lineup of young Players.

Now, if it was....as Sparhawk suggested....Josh Smith....then I can see some hesitation.....but if the Hawks offered up Horford for the #2 pick....Jordan would be crazy not to do that trade.Davis won't be a franchise player, I guarantee that. The only franchise player I see in this draft is Michael Kidd-Gilchrist.

xIndyFan
06-25-2012, 04:38 PM
Well we did actually play at least 10 guys consistently which is greater than the NBA norm. So we were deep. Unfortunately, 4 of them weren't worth a ****.

there are two kind of depth. Regular season depth and playoff depth. The pacers were a deep team, and had good depth during the regular season. Playing the 10 guys BWD mentioned. Pacers backups were fine to beat MIN or TOR or some other 500 team. But Playoff depth has to be like having 8 starters. Pacers had 6 vs MIA, 7 vs ORL. since Leandro is gone, they have 6. They need a couple more guys that can really play. Guys as good as the starters.

naptownmenace
06-25-2012, 05:27 PM
Davis won't be a franchise player, I guarantee that. The only franchise player I see in this draft is Michael Kidd-Gilchrist.

I think you're wrong. I think he'll be another Alonzo Mourning type player in 3 years.

Pacergeek
06-25-2012, 05:48 PM
I like the trade for Charlotte. With the exception of Kevin Durant, the number 2 pick has been lousy over the years.

Kstat
06-25-2012, 06:17 PM
Davis won't be a franchise player, I guarantee that.

Well, now that you've issued a guarentee, I think this discussion has been settled....