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View Full Version : With Nash and Williams off the Table....



3 8 thee great t h
06-24-2012, 05:06 AM
Who do you want now?
What do we do at the point?
Do You think we ever had a chance at either one?
....just wanna see what you guys think about our offseason now

Hypnotiq
06-24-2012, 05:37 AM
Well Kyle Lowry or Dragic or Move up in the Draft and get a PG

3 8 thee great t h
06-24-2012, 05:42 AM
I have pretty much the same opinion or get mayo like I said in another thread

ballism
06-24-2012, 05:48 AM
I think we still have a real shot at Nash. I never considered us the favorites, I thought Portland makes the most sense.
But any reported 'lists' seem like speculation more than anything.
The question is, are we going to go hard after him.

BringJackBack
06-24-2012, 06:06 AM
If we aren't going after Nash,

Jason Kidd or Chauncey Billups should be able to be brought in for very cheap while we look to draft or trade for a future point guard. And those two players are still pretty damn good.

Hypnotiq
06-24-2012, 06:07 AM
Jason Kidd is just about finished there is no way he is better than DC or Hill at this present time

presto123
06-24-2012, 06:07 AM
I think we still have a real shot at Nash. I never considered us the favorites, I thought Portland makes the most sense.
But any reported 'lists' seem like speculation more than anything.
The question is, are we going to go hard after him.

I agree. Go hard after him. It's not like a guy can't change his mind. Let Pritch handle this.

BringJackBack
06-24-2012, 06:22 AM
Jason Kidd is just about finished there is no way he is better than DC or Hill at this present time

His skillset is still better equipped for this team than DC or Hill. He's what we are looking for at the present time... Maybe he's the bare minimum, but if he can run a fast break while running an offense and getting the ball to Roy in the post, he'll work.

Hypnotiq
06-24-2012, 06:41 AM
Jason Kidd running a fast break.

i dont know what to say

D-BONE
06-24-2012, 06:55 AM
Well, considering we don't have a player who can consistently lead a fast break and not dribble it off his leg or make the right and/or accurate pass...

Blink
06-24-2012, 07:05 AM
Anyone see much of Bayless last year? Seems like he was putting up good numbers before he got injured.

Jeremy
06-24-2012, 07:41 AM
I want Dragic but I doubt that happens. I don't like teeny tiny point guards like Lowry.

Hicks
06-24-2012, 09:55 AM
I'll wait until they're officially off the table before I give it serious thought.

Who knows; maybe we already have a new PG after a trade Thursday.

PacerPenguins
06-24-2012, 10:51 AM
whens the last time we drafted a point guard in the first round? I can't remember

TheDon
06-24-2012, 10:54 AM
whens the last time we drafted a point guard in the first round? I can't remember

Tinsley

croz24
06-24-2012, 10:58 AM
Do people still think point guard play is our primary weakness? Go ahead an bring in Dragic, Lowry, whomever... None of those guys are going to come in averaging the "assist numbers" many of you expect in our current system, surrounded by this group of players.

Derek2k3
06-24-2012, 11:04 AM
If we aren't going after Nash,

Jason Kidd or Chauncey Billups should be able to be brought in for very cheap while we look to draft or trade for a future point guard. And those two players are still pretty damn good.

That's likely a big ol' no.

He was furious last season when the Clippers picked him up off of the amnesty waivers. There'd have to be a lot of grudges put aside as well (From a fans perspective, that is.)

OlBlu
06-24-2012, 11:11 AM
Do people still think point guard play is our primary weakness? Go ahead an bring in Dragic, Lowry, whomever... None of those guys are going to come in averaging the "assist numbers" many of you expect in our current system, surrounded by this group of players.

Bingo!!!!

TinManJoshua
06-24-2012, 11:25 AM
Do people still think point guard play is our primary weakness? Go ahead an bring in Dragic, Lowry, whomever... None of those guys are going to come in averaging the "assist numbers" many of you expect in our current system, surrounded by this group of players.

What is our primary weakness then, in your opinion?

OlBlu
06-24-2012, 11:33 AM
What is our primary weakness then, in your opinion?

A back-up center is a big weakness. PF depth is another. Get better big people. I don't think Bird will make any changes at PG this year.......:cool:

joew8302
06-24-2012, 11:38 AM
A back-up center is a big weakness. PF depth is another. Get better big people. I don't think Bird will make any changes at PG this year.......:cool:

You make very little sense. On another thread you were saying we will not compete with Miami, and this thread apparently our biggest weakness is a backup center. If all we need is a backup center then we should be competing for a title.

PR07
06-24-2012, 11:43 AM
I think Nash could still be in play, but Deron Williams likely never was.

3rdStrike
06-24-2012, 11:46 AM
Do people still think point guard play is our primary weakness? Go ahead an bring in Dragic, Lowry, whomever... None of those guys are going to come in averaging the "assist numbers" many of you expect in our current system, surrounded by this group of players.


Yeah, because Courtney Lee, Chase Budinger, Luis Scola and Samuel Dalembert > Paul George, Danny Granger, David West and Roy Hibbert.

...

Wait, what?

Or are you one of those people who thinks the system is to blame for DC having terribad court vision? If we had a competent passing point then Vogel would adjust his offense to suit them. His scheme is not set in stone, at all. And point guard is absolutely the greatest weakness of the team. Nobody on the starting unit can pass the ball, I don't know what people think adding a backup big or an OJ Mayo type chucker will do to change that.

My preferences, in order (and assuming DWill is big market bound):

Nash
draft
Dragic


If we go 0-for-3 we're SOL. The team will be in the same situation in the playoffs: getting abused by even semi competent defenders, failing to get near the paint, hoisting up contested threes. And yes, that backup big man and spot up shooter off the bench will be looking as lost as our starters.

graphic-er
06-24-2012, 11:58 AM
Yeah, because Courtney Lee, Chase Budinger, Luis Scola and Samuel Dalembert > Paul George, Danny Granger, David West and Roy Hibbert.

...

Wait, what?

Or are you one of those people who thinks the system is to blame for DC having terribad court vision? If we had a competent passing point then Vogel would adjust his offense to suit them. His scheme is not set in stone, at all. And point guard is absolutely the greatest weakness of the team. Nobody on the starting unit can pass the ball, I don't know what people think adding a backup big or an OJ Mayo type chucker will do to change that.

My preferences, in order (and assuming DWill is big market bound):

Nash
draft
Dragic


If we go 0-for-3 we're SOL. The team will be in the same situation in the playoffs: getting abused by even semi competent defenders, failing to get near the paint, hoisting up contested threes. And yes, that backup big man and spot up shooter off the bench will be looking as lost as our starters.

Great post, the playoffs is exactly where we would see the difference in having a true point. When the defense gets ratcheted up against us you need somebody who is going to make the correct play.

I personally love Dragic, because he is not afraid to drive it straight to the rim. George Hill is a really good player, but so many times I see settle for a long 3 pter off the dribble rather then penetrate and go right at the defense. We really do not have anybody in the starting line up to consistently drives the ball.

OlBlu
06-24-2012, 12:15 PM
I was suggesting that a backup center would be the best we could get in the draft. We cannot compete with Miami because we don't have any superstars. We don't have any stars period. If you can draft a superstar, do it at any position. I don't think you can trade for one or afford one as a free agent. Just because we can't handle Miami doesn't mean that I do not believe we should keep upgrading the team as much as possible. I don't think any PG in this draft or is available in free agency is a big upgrade over DC and Hill at that position......:cool:

croz24
06-24-2012, 12:22 PM
Yeah, because Courtney Lee, Chase Budinger, Luis Scola and Samuel Dalembert > Paul George, Danny Granger, David West and Roy Hibbert.

...

Wait, what?

Or are you one of those people who thinks the system is to blame for DC having terribad court vision? If we had a competent passing point then Vogel would adjust his offense to suit them. His scheme is not set in stone, at all. And point guard is absolutely the greatest weakness of the team. Nobody on the starting unit can pass the ball, I don't know what people think adding a backup big or an OJ Mayo type chucker will do to change that.

My preferences, in order (and assuming DWill is big market bound):

Nash
draft
Dragic


If we go 0-for-3 we're SOL. The team will be in the same situation in the playoffs: getting abused by even semi competent defenders, failing to get near the paint, hoisting up contested threes. And yes, that backup big man and spot up shooter off the bench will be looking as lost as our starters.

Yea because Peja Stojakovic, Marcus Thornton, Emeka Okafor, David West > Paul George, Danny Granger, David West and Roy Hibbert... Wait, what? As a starter with those players Collison too put up big numbers: 18.8ppg 3.5rpg 9.1apg which are no different, if not better than Dragic or Lowry and also came on a losing team who failed to make the playoffs.

I agree that our team as a whole is an awful passing team. However, Vogel's "scheme" is nothing more than having a pg bring the ball up the court, and pass it off as soon as he crosses half court so that the wing can feed the post while everyone else ball watches. Point guard play is NOT why we lost to Miami, it is NOT why we struggled at times against a Howard-less Magic, and it is NOT why we will lose games going forward. Our greatest issue is a lack of high level talent, regardless of position, combined with an offensive system that encourages players to stand around ball watching on the perimeter.

If we could land a Rondo or Williams, sure our team would be vastly improved. But it would be because those are top 15 caliber players in this league. Dragic, Lowry, or a draftee aren't a big enough improvement, if even that, over Collison to make any impact whatsoever towards our title chances.

Hicks
06-24-2012, 12:49 PM
Compare DC's rookie year to Lowry and Dragic last season, all per-36 stats:

<PRE>
Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1 Darren Collison 2009-10 22 76 37 2109 6.4 13.5 .477 0.8 2.0 .400 2.5 3.0 .851 0.7 2.6 3.3 7.4 1.3 0.1 3.4 1.6 16.1
2 Goran Dragic 2011-12 25 66 28 1752 5.7 12.3 .462 1.4 4.2 .337 3.1 3.9 .805 1.1 2.4 3.5 7.2 1.7 0.2 3.2 3.4 15.9
3 Kyle Lowry 2011-12 25 47 38 1510 5.0 12.2 .409 1.9 5.0 .374 4.1 4.7 .864 0.9 4.2 5.1 7.4 1.7 0.3 3.1 3.2 16.0
</PRE>

Eddie Gill
06-24-2012, 02:15 PM
I was suggesting that a backup center would be the best we could get in the draft. We cannot compete with Miami because we don't have any superstars. We don't have any stars period. If you can draft a superstar, do it at any position. I don't think you can trade for one or afford one as a free agent. Just because we can't handle Miami doesn't mean that I do not believe we should keep upgrading the team as much as possible. I don't think any PG in this draft or is available in free agency is a big upgrade over DC and Hill at that position......:cool:

This. It's becoming increasingly evident that a game-changing FA PG is off the table, so I think we have to look toward trading up in the draft. Unfortunately for those who think PG is our biggest area of weakness, this isn't a draft loaded with point guards. Are we really better equipped for an ECF run next year with Lillard, Marshall, or Teague? If the answer to that is no, then we have to look at other areas.

So while I agree an upgrade over DC/Hill would help us tremendously in the playoffs, I just don't think that player is available.

ksuttonjr76
06-24-2012, 02:35 PM
Stay with DC/Hill and get a backup C and another scoring wing.

Hicks
06-24-2012, 02:41 PM
Stay with DC/Hill and get a backup C and another scoring wing.

I'm becoming convinced they won't stick with DC/Hill because they want Hill to start while DC thinks he ought to start. I don't think DC wants to stay as the backup PG.

If something can't be worked out, then I'm confident he'll suck it up heading into November, but otherwise I'm starting to really expect Indiana to trade Collison either Thursday night or else before training camp. If they can spin DC into either Marshall or Zeller, I think they should probably do it.

ksuttonjr76
06-24-2012, 02:44 PM
I'm becoming convinced they won't stick with DC/Hill because they want Hill to start while DC thinks he ought to start. I don't think DC wants to stay as the backup PG.

If something can't be worked out, then I'm confident he'll suck it up heading into November, but otherwise I'm starting to really expect Indiana to trade Collison either Thursday night or else before training camp. If they can spin DC into either Marshall or Zeller, I think they should probably do it.

I agree. I believe that DC and Hansbrough have been secret trade bait for a while now.

Lance George
06-24-2012, 03:18 PM
From Basketball Reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=collida01&y1=2010&p2=dragigo01&y2=2012&p3=lowryky01&y3=2012):

<iframe src="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=Kx3vO&output=iframe" width=800 height=133 scrolling=auto></iframe>

Collison ranked 13th out of 15 (including Foster) on the team in USG% last season at 17%. That is, the percentage of the team's offensive possessions that a player uses (shot/foul [off. or def.]/assist/turnover) while on the floor.

On the other hand, Lowry (22%) and Dragic (21.8%) were fifth and sixth in USG% with Houston. In short: They were given more of an opportunity to put up "numbers" with Houston than D.C. was here in Indy. They were given nearly one-third more possessions to work with. If we want a PG who can produce like either of them, all we have to do is increase D.C.'s role in the offense by about 29%, and -- voila! -- we've got it.

Conversely, if either Lowry or Gragic end up here, and their roles are diminished to the point that D.C.'s was, then we can expect their production to take a similar dip.

With that said, Lowry is a hellacious rebounder, and, according to posters on RealGM (cue KStat whining), was ranked second in point guard defense by on Synergy Sports (someone with access can verify this), so I do think he'd be a moderate upgrade over D.C., so it'd be a question of what we'd have to give up to land him. If it's reasonable enough to warrant the moderate upgrade he'd bring us, I'd be all for it.

Dragic, I'm unsure of. He had a period this past season where he looked like a perennial All-Star, better than D.C. or Lowry, however, outside of that he's been about on par with D.C. throughout their careers. It just depends on which you think the real Gordan Dragic is.

Steagles
06-24-2012, 03:22 PM
I'm becoming convinced they won't stick with DC/Hill because they want Hill to start while DC thinks he ought to start. I don't think DC wants to stay as the backup PG.

If something can't be worked out, then I'm confident he'll suck it up heading into November, but otherwise I'm starting to really expect Indiana to trade Collison either Thursday night or else before training camp. If they can spin DC into either Marshall or Zeller, I think they should probably do it.

Kendall Marshall would be awesome. If we could flip DC to NOLA for the 10, we could snag him.

CableKC
06-24-2012, 03:41 PM
That's likely a big ol' no.

He was furious last season when the Clippers picked him up off of the amnesty waivers. There'd have to be a lot of grudges put aside as well (From a fans perspective, that is.)
Yes, we know better......but do ou think that the common fan would have known about this, much less care about it?

The common fan would just remember that he was the PG that led the Pistons to their Championship a few years back. I know that Billups was very reluctant for a Lottery Team to pick him up off of the Amnesty waivers....last season....it was unclear what we were....but over this last season, we have proven a lot over the last year.

Offer him a decent 3 year contract....have Bird play up the whole "we made it to the 2nd round of the Playoffs", tell him that he can be the missing piece to get to the ECF and see what happens. :shrug:

McKeyFan
06-24-2012, 04:34 PM
However, Vogel's "scheme" is nothing more than having a pg bring the ball up the court, and pass it off as soon as he crosses half court so that the wing can feed the post while everyone else ball watches. Point guard play is NOT why we lost to Miami, it is NOT why we struggled at times against a Howard-less Magic, and it is NOT why we will lose games going forward. Our greatest issue is a lack of high level talent, regardless of position, combined with an offensive system that encourages players to stand around ball watching on the perimeter.
I may agree with your very last point. We could use some more schemes and less standing around.

But I disagree with the first part. The wings struggle with getting the ball into the bigs, but it's the best option available. The reason the point guard's only job is simply to pass it to the wing is because the point guards struggle doing it themselves.

We need a playmaker. Point guard is the obvious place to make that happen.

OlBlu
06-24-2012, 04:49 PM
Yes, we know better......but do ou think that the common fan would have known about this, much less care about it?

The common fan would just remember that he was the PG that led the Pistons to their Championship a few years back. I know that Billups was very reluctant for a Lottery Team to pick him up off of the Amnesty waivers....last season....it was unclear what we were....but over this last season, we have proven a lot over the last year.

Offer him a decent 3 year contract....have Bird play up the whole "we made it to the 2nd round of the Playoffs", tell him that he can be the missing piece to get to the ECF and see what happens. :shrug:

You can lie to the fans all you want and some will even buy it but you can't lie to the players. Billips knows exactly what the Pacers are and what they are not... Signing him for three years is absurd. I would rather go with what we have......:cool:

3rdStrike
06-24-2012, 06:55 PM
From Basketball Reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=collida01&y1=2010&p2=dragigo01&y2=2012&p3=lowryky01&y3=2012):

<iframe src="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=Kx3vO&output=iframe" scrolling="auto" height="133" width="800"></iframe>

Dragic, I'm unsure of. He had a period this past season where he looked like a perennial All-Star, better than D.C. or Lowry, however, outside of that he's been about on par with D.C. throughout their careers. It just depends on which you think the real Gordan Dragic is.


There was a very informative article posted here maybe a year ago about DC's numbers in NO and how they were intentionally falsified to make him look better than he was (and the article was written before he was traded, so there was no malice involved). In brief a significant amount of his "assists" should not have been credited as such. But that's besides the point, my point is...

There are a few positions where the eye test can prove very useful, and point guard is one of them. Dragic is just on another level of passing than Collison is. It transcends scheme, teammates, level of experience, box scores, etc. It's just an easily perceptible difference. Who can thread the needle, set up shots, create something when the designed play breaks down.

You watch Collison footage then you watch Dragic footage and it's blatantly obvious that they aren't comparable passers. I'm not trying to paint Dragic as elite, or anything. In my opinion, his skill set is good but not great, but they match so well with what this team needs (creative passing, excellent fast break ability, great finisher around the rim, unafraid of contact or the big moment), that as a third option (after Nash or a drafted guard) he would still be a significant upgrade. And Collison we know is a poor passer. You can blame the system all you want but you, me and everyone else saw it on so many possessions the past few years. He'd make the wrong pass, miss the open guy, or just make a pass that was too poor. Basic stuff. We're not even getting into playmaking ability, which he had next to none of (aside from his excellent 1 vs the world fast breaks, no sarcasm). Forget numbers for a second, none of that stuff is any system's fault.

I think a lot of people are looking at Dragic's stats now and saying he's good. But a lot of people are also saying "look at DC's stats before, we don't wanna go down that road again." Both sides make sense, but both are wrong. Watch footage of him playing. There is a significant difference in passing ability.

And I definitely don't say any of this to rag on DC. In a perfect world after we get our point guard, Vogel would exploit DC's strengths and tell him to be the score-first guard off the bench that we need. He's more than capable. I just doubt that they'll keep him over Hill, because 1. they gave away Kawhi Leonard for Hill and 2. DC is probably going to want to start somewhere. And we all know Hill is even less of a playmaker.

Pacerized
06-25-2012, 07:43 PM
I've been away from the internet for just over a week but the last thing I read from Williams was that he wanted to win now and didn't know himself where he was leaning yet. When I search for anything new, I don't see any statement from Williams that this has changed, just more speculation from various reporters.
So, I don't think either Williams or Nash are off the table.
My first choice is to pursue Williams.
Second choice is Nash.
Third choice isn't a pg since there isn't another pg available that would help us more then what we have. Go after Kaman or make a trade as a third option. I don't want us spending our money on mediocre players, we have that need well covered.

TheDon
06-26-2012, 03:39 AM
one way or another I think we'll have a new point guard going into the season I just think with all the possibilities being up in the air with williams, nash, and the point guards that are available in the draft that someone somewhere will be the odd man out especially if toronto, LA, and portland end up drafting a point guard then the options for Nash and Williams become even more limited, if people draft big then maybe one of those more talented point guards falls to us in the draft.