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Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

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  • #1

    Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

    Ok for this installment we are going to look at the remainder of the bench and where they fit in and how they fit in with the team.

    While we did usually play a 10 man roster the truth is we had a solid 8 player rotation and the 2 other players played almost every game but their minutes would very depending on circumstance. That’s not to say they didn’t have consistent minutes but sometimes they would play longer than others.

    They certainly can be credited with keeping our rosters legs fresh during this shortened compacted season and IMO their on the floor contributions were often very present.

    I think it’s first important to say that life is not fair, I know that is a “well duh” type statement and most of you are wondering why I would even bother saying that but my logic is simple. There has to be players who know right up front that they are not going to be starters, they may not get consistent minutes and in some cases they may not even dress for games.

    Every team has to have them and sometimes they can either make or break your locker room. If you have a group of malcontents or back stabbers or even just over ambitious players your locker room can be really a very poor environment. That’s not to say you want slackers either, but to get a mix of players who know and accept their role is sometimes rare and I think the Pacers this season by all reports were blessed with this type of locker room.

    I guess I need to make clear up front that I am probably going to be a little easier on the deep bench guys than I was with some of the rotational players because frankly less is expected of them. As long as they aren’t causing trouble and do what is expected of them I think generally they are doing what we expect of them.


    Dahntay Jones:

    I’m starting with him because IMO he is what I like to call the deep bench leader. He is the veteran presence and he often sets the tone for what some of the younger players are expected to act like.

    It doesn’t matter if he plays 20 minutes 10 minutes or 1 minute his actions on the floor are always the same.

    There are people who don’t like him as a player & I understand that he certainly has his limitations but in my mind he is about perfect for a player who is playing the role he has on our team. While I don’t think he is a starter in this league I do think on other teams he certainly could have played a much larger role than he has with us.

    When he is on the bench though he is one of the biggest fans of the team on the floor that there is, he is always cheering on the team and he is always talking to the opposition. Now that last part isn’t always a good thing not because he does or says anything inappropriate but Lance certainly follows his lead and I can assure you that Lance is not uttering kind Christian greetings on the opposition.

    One thing that is in Dahntay Jones favor is that he keeps himself in immaculate shape and even though he is 31 he has lost zero of his athletic ability and can still sky when he wants to.

    The other thing is that he understands that defense is his forte. Now when we signed him to much was made that he was a Kobe stopper and frankly there is just no such thing, but then the tables turned and people started to under value him as a defender as well. IMO he is an above average defender who can guard any of the wing and on rare occasions some point guards. His defense on Dwayne Wade at times stunning and while Dwayne overcame all defenders it wasn’t because Dahntay stopped defending. For lack of a better term he was in his jersey every time they were on the floor together.

    I still contend that I would have preferred Dahntay get the minutes that were awarded to Barbosa during that Miami series.

    But again what makes Dahntay valuable to me anyway is that he came in and played so well and so hard when during the Orlando series he was unceremoniously not used in favor of Paul George. That was a good idea in theory but sadly IMO Paul did not do much with the extra time.

    On offense he is what he is, which is not a bad thing btw. He made himself into one hell of a free throw shooter this season and it was apparent to him that if he wanted some time beyond just defense he would have to develop a three point shot and he made himself into a fairly reliable corner three point shooter.

    Like I said before I understand that this seems like a glowing review and yes if he were either a starter or first backup I would be much harder on him but IMO he does his job, he does it very well & I am perfectly content with him on the team.

    Predictions: He will pick up his player option and he will retain a similar role on our club as this past season barring other trades that might affect his playing time.

    What I would like to see: Nothing different for me, I’m content with him and his role.

    Will he be an all-star? No.


    Lou Amundson.

    Let’s all repeat the mantra, Lou is undersized, Lou is really a power forward, Lou is overmatched.

    These are said ad nauseam on here so therefore they must be true, right?

    Well I am here to ask, who are these leviathans who are roaming the NBA as backup centers that so over power and out match Lou?

    Here is a list of backup centers in the E.C.

    Boston – Ryan Hollins is 7’ tall but come on, seriously there can be nobody who thinks he’s going to outplay Lou. Greg Steimsma is 6’11” tall and I am willing to say he is better than Lou but I don’t think for a min. it is due to the 2” in height difference.

    New Jersey – first it must be acknowledged that they started Sheldon Williams at center instead of the two taller backups they have. Johan Petro is 7” tall but that is all he has going for him and Jordan Williams me be a better player someday but not today but again his 1” in height difference is not the make or break item here.

    New York – Does anyone really think that Lou is overmatched playing against Jarred Jefferies at a very generous 6’11”? I don’t. They have a couple of bigger players in reserve but don’t them. Now if Gadzuric sticks with them that is a different story.

    Philly – Tonie Battie is probably a better player but I just refuse to believe it is because he is 2” taller. Now this Vucevic is a different story as my memory of him was that he did have some real size on him.

    Toronto – Now back in the day Jamaal Magloire would fit this description but he is now just old and can’t keep up with Lou. Amir Johnson is the exact same size as Lou, I wonder I they complain about his size up there? I suppose Ed Davis is 1” taller but he just doesn’t inspire me into thinking he is going to be controlling the paint vs. Lou

    Chicago – Ok here is one I will easily concede. Asik is both legitimately big & fairly good for a backup.

    Cleveland – Samuels is the same size as Lou, although I will admit I do like his game.

    Detroit – Didn’t they play the 6’7” Maxiell at backup when Wallace didn’t play? Even if Wallace played he is 6’9” tall as well.

    Milwaukee – Ok the 6’11” Larry Sanders might be a physical match for Lou, God knows he is crazy enough. But again were talking 2” here people does it really make that much difference?

    Atlanta – Alright Atlanta has several players who do over match Lou in both size and ability. Pachulia, Dampier & Collins are all both bigger and stronger than Lou although Dampier & even Collins are getting long in the tooth. Well actually Dampier is beyond long in the tooth he is false teeth at this point in time.

    Charlotte – I refuse to acknowledge Diop as anything more than fodder. Yes he is bigger but is there even one person who would trade either player straight up for the other? I’m also not a big fan of Mullens and would prefer Lou. Now on the other hand Biyombo will be a good player in the future but he is the same size as Lou.

    Miami – Neither Pittman nor Turiaf IMO outmatches Lou and at best Dexter is 2” taller and Ronny is 1” taller. Joel Anthony is the same size.

    Orlando – Height wise Davis is the same but it is obviously girth where he does exceed Lou and even though he is large he has an amazing ability to stay on the floor for extended times and maintain his ability to be affective. So I’ll give this one up as well.

    Washington – Brian Cook is the same size as Lou.

    So there is the list of backup centers in the East who are used. Sure there are a couple of better backups and yes there are even some bigger ones who will outmatch him. But to say that this is a nightly occurrence is just wrong. What Lou lacks in height he more than makes up for in his leaping ability and strength.

    Lou is what Lou is. If you want to complain about him as a backup I can understand it but I just want everyone to not just use the excuse that him being 6’9” is the end all be all of his problems. Solomon Jones was 6’10” was he a better backup center?

    I like Lou, I like his game myself but I am also not so naïve as to say that he must be kept at all cost. In fact if they say that they want to let Lou walk and keep Fes I probably won’t think two thoughts about it. Ironically one of the backup centers in the NBA who could over power him and seems to have a better game than him is right on our team, yet our coaching staff wouldn’t use him over Lou.

    Obviously his offense is just nerve wracking to watch. I mean this guy will miss wide open layups and throw dunks off of the back of the rim and then turn around and hit a twisting jump shot with a defender hanging off of him. But it’s safe to say that when he is on the floor his position is one that any offense you get from him is a bonus.

    However thankfully he is a decent defender and a pretty good rebounder. His leaping ability allows for him to be quite an effective shot blocker in both weak side and straight up man to man. He’s also strong enough and gets position enough that he grabs his fair share of rebounds.

    Prediction: This is tough as I could see it going either way. If he is willing to come back here for the minimum then I could see them signing him, but I won’t be shocked if they make no offer at all.

    What I would like to see: He is what he is so no need to reinvent the wheel here. If he’s back I’d like him to get some min. along side West and not be paired up with Tyler every time.
    Will he be an all-star? No

    A.J. Price:

    I really would have liked to have seen him before he had to work with Jim O’Brien. I don’t know if this is the way he always was or if this is what he became because of him. But either way at best right now I don’t think he is ever anything other than as a third string point guard, which is fine btw like I said you need players like this.

    He has good dribbling ability, seems to have a really good eye for the floor, he is not a bad defender. The real problem with him, & I want to blame O’Brien here but I don’t know if I would be right or wrong, is that he looks for his own shot way to much.

    Often times the worst thing that can happen for him is he comes in and hits a jump shot, the reason this is so bad is that is just emboldens him to shoot another one.

    My thoughts on him are simple. Whatever is best for him at this point in time. If he is content being the third string point guard who will not get into many games then by all means I won’t be hurt if they sign him to a small contract. But if he wants a change of location to see if he can be more than I can’t blame him either, also if the Pacers decide that they want to go another direction I can’t blame them either.

    He has been a good soldier though and is part of that good locker room we were talking about.

    Predictions: Pacers won’t extend an offer and honestly I think he will be overseas next year.

    What I would like to see: Whatever is best for him.

    Will he be an all-star? No

    Lance Stephenson

    I will give him credit for picking up the defensive intensity this past season. That is to say he actually provided some form of defensive intensity this past season because prior to that he offered none.

    Oh the debate will range on for as long as he is on the team. Is he a point guard or is he not a point guard.

    I’ll say this if he were ever a true point guard he has the perfect size for it. Dude is built like a linebacker and is very quick.

    I’m not sure of his true skill level and I feel confident in saying none of us do. Bird keeps gushing about him but at some point in time I treat Larry like I did Artest when he goes on one of his “this player is this or that” hyperbole bends.

    Right now we know this. He can dribble and he can pass. He is not a good defender but he has to be given credit for working on his defense.

    He can NOT shoot. Now he can drive and get to the rim but the guy is not a good outside shooter.

    Here is where I will fall on the side of the people who think that he is a point guard, he has the best court vision of all of our guards. A.J. Price might be his equal but both of them are far superior to any of our other guards and generally it’s not even close.

    As to citizenship I think he has to be given some credit there as well. He moved away from NYC and lived here to train. However I can tell you from watching him on the sideline every game that he trash talks the other team mercilessly. The LeBron choke motion was what got the attention but it didn’t surprise me at all, the guy just goes non stop. He has had near fights with J. Howard with Miami and Jermaine O’Neal with Boston. He called O’Neal grandpa which only endeared him to me as a player and person.

    Predictions: Bird has to much invested in him to let him walk, he will be signed for the minimum that they can.

    What I would like to see: Totally depends on what we do with the other players but if everybody comes back as is I would like to see Lance assigned to the Mad Ants for a month or so. But then I want that for a lot of players & I think we are almost criminal in our lack of use of the D league.

    Will he be an all-star? No

    I don’t have enough on court material to evaluate Jeff Pendegraph or Kyrylo Fesenko. I’ll just say this, if they let Fes walk I think this was the biggest waste of money I’ve ever seen, but at the end of the day it’s not my money.

    I’ll look to wrap this up tomorrow.

    For a change of pace have this.



    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

    Originally posted by Peck View Post
    Lance Stephenson
    Predictions: Bird has to much invested in him to let him walk, he will be signed for the minimum that they can.

    According to Sham Sports, Lance has two more years, both unguarenteed. ($870,000, & $930,000)

    Non-guaranteed deals essentially amount to another form of team option -- teams can choose to release these players before their contracts become fully guaranteed.

    I agree Bird has an investment in him, but it's not a lot of money. I think he will be kept as long as he keeps his nose clean. (Pretty much your prediction)
    Last edited by Will Galen; 06-01-2012, 05:11 AM.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

      On, Lance et al. I actually like that we're investing in player development. Pacers are basically paying Lance, Pendy, and Fez to sit and learn. It's something that could pay off down the road when we're a capped out team in need of cheap contributors.

      It would be nice though if we start seeing some payoff to that investment. Hopefully one or more of those guys can join the rotation next year.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

        Look for Lance to start the season as the 10th man, just like last season. If he can keep the spot, great. If not, we will find another cheap replacement.

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

          Originally posted by kent beckley View Post
          Look for Lance to start the season as the 10th man, just like last season. If he can keep the spot, great. If not, we will find another cheap replacement.
          basically agree with you. but slightly more positive expectations. Lance will be a rotation guy at the start of the season, with a chance to start by the end. All depends on how he plays like you said, but the guy has the skills and size to play at the NBA level.

          Just as a fan, i will miss his trash talking from the bench. It give the Pacers an edge that they've missed.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

            These guys are basically inconsequential. I mean, they're all decent for deep bench options/rah-rah roles, which is what they are. Lance/Pendergraph are most likely to break into rotation just based on physical tools alone, but I'm not holding my breath. Lou is welcomed back AFAIC if it's economical.
            I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

            -Emiliano Zapata

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

              Originally posted by wintermute View Post
              On, Lance et al. I actually like that we're investing in player development. Pacers are basically paying Lance, Pendy, and Fez to sit and learn. It's something that could pay off down the road when we're a capped out team in need of cheap contributors.

              It would be nice though if we start seeing some payoff to that investment. Hopefully one or more of those guys can join the rotation next year.

              I would like to see all three of those players contribute next year and replace Amundson with Fes and Pendegraph get
              at least some of Tylers minutes and Lance get some shooting guard/point minutes.
              Trade Tyler and Collison and 26 for a true point guard.
              Pndergraph is a very quick leaper and certainly an energy guy. Tyler has not improved his game at all and he still has
              the same physical limitations. Lance had started to show some shooting ability toward the end of the season so you can see he has been working. I need more evidence before I feel you can make a final call on Lance.
              {o,o}
              |)__)
              -"-"-

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

                Originally posted by Peck View Post
                Lou Amundson.

                Let’s all repeat the mantra, Lou is undersized, Lou is really a power forward, Lou is overmatched.

                These are said ad nauseam on here so therefore they must be true, right?
                Funny you mention this because Conrad Brunner was on 1070 the Fan the other day and mentioned how Lou was our 6'7 to 6'8 center and that we need a bigger backup big. I thought Lou did pretty good for his limitations so yes I agree Lou is undersized. I think we all have a soft place for hustle guys but that's all Lou will ever be along with the Brian Cardinals and Mark Popes of the world.
                Last edited by RWB; 06-01-2012, 09:11 AM.
                You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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                • #9
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

                  I predict that Lance will probably be a rotational player off the bench next season. If the bench needs more scoring, we certainly have a scorer in Lance.
                  You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

                    On Lance you said:
                    He can NOT shoot. Now he can drive and get to the rim but the guy is not a good outside shooter.
                    I'm not convinced this is true. Numbers never lie but they don't always tell the whole story. I think he's still adjusting to the big stage. Pressing as he tries to impress. I'm still hopeful that he can get used to and learn to love being in the spotlight.

                    I'd also like to mention an aspect of his defense that really impressed me. He had a knack for being in the right place at the right time to make steals. His defensive anticipation was as good as anyone I saw on the team. DC had moments where he used his speed to make steals when the other team wasn't paying attention. But Lance seemed to be able to disrupt normal offensive. And he did it with limited minutes on the floor. He seems to have exceptional floor vision on both the defensive and offensive end.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

                      I love how Peck starts by poopooing the talk of Lou being undersized, then proceeds to list how almost every team in the conference has at least one guy taller or bigger than Lou.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

                        Originally posted by Hicks View Post
                        I love how Peck starts by poopooing the talk of Lou being undersized, then proceeds to list how almost every team in the conference has at least one guy taller or bigger than Lou.
                        Yea I admit it looks bad when written out like that. However I guess I just don't consider height as much as I do style of play when I look at players. Same reason why I don't think Paul is to tall to play the two guard.


                        Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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                        • #13
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

                          What I come away with more than anything is wondering why Tyler didn't end up glued to the bench at some point... or at least with markedly cut minutes? We had other options, and after signing Fez we removed any excuse to continue allowing Tyler's minutes to continue like they were. Lou easily could've taken Tyler's spot. Tyler had a bad season and I'm just not sure how helpful it was to let him play thru it. Overall, he was atrocious in the playoffs and a big reason our 2nd unit was the problem it was.
                          Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                          ------

                          "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                          -John Wooden

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                          • #14
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

                            With a healthy Foster, Amundson is probably your third big off the bench on most nights. That's probably what it should be. However, I like the guy, what he brings to the table, and he's a fan favorite...I'd bring him back if the price is right.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: 2011-12 player review and other fun stuff part 4

                              I think we should keep Lou, yeah he is not the best player ever but to me he was another important piece for the Pacers during the regular season, bring a point guard that can pass the ball and we could probably get to see more production out of him.
                              @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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