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vnzla81
03-20-2012, 09:42 PM
Great game for the guys, yep I love Hill at the point with the starters and how about that Barbosa guy? :)

Go Pacers :dance:

CableKC
03-20-2012, 09:43 PM
Gameball goes to the entire 2nd unit...with Barbosa and Lou leading the way.

PacersHomer
03-20-2012, 09:44 PM
I'm liking the Barbosa pickup.

Mr_Smith
03-20-2012, 09:45 PM
Good win, Danny actually hit some shots. Shout out to the Brazilian Blur for his contributions tonight

daschysta
03-20-2012, 09:46 PM
Our bench rocks when healthy.

Hill showed me he could pass, still holds the ball too long for my liking sometimes, but so does DC. I wouldn't mind trying starting him eventually so long as it doesn't hurt our chemistry.

Hibbert
03-20-2012, 09:46 PM
Blake Griffin: "Uvo play funk" Uvo: "As soon as you stop *****ing after every call i will".

PacerPenguins
03-20-2012, 09:49 PM
LOVED THIS GAME!

MiaDragon
03-20-2012, 09:50 PM
Our bench rocks when healthy.

Hill showed me he could pass, still holds the ball too long for my liking sometimes, but so does DC. I wouldn't mind trying starting him eventually so long as it doesn't hurt our chemistry.


Hill looked like he had a better idea on what he wanted to do with the ball and would dictate where guys needed to be on the floor. Made some great passes and hit some big shots.

CableKC
03-20-2012, 09:50 PM
Our bench rocks when healthy.

Hill showed me he could pass, still holds the ball too long for my liking sometimes, but so does DC. I wouldn't mind trying starting him eventually so long as it doesn't hurt our chemistry.
Not as much healthy....but more when they are hitting their shots.

I will say that the 2nd Unit Plays SO MUCH BETTER when Hansbrough hits his shots.....but now that we run a much better 2nd unit with GH, Barbosa and Inferno ( as long as he sticks to playing within his own game )...I am okay with Hansbrough not always being this consistent on the offensive end.

The combination of GH/Blur/Inferno/Hansbrough/Amundson went 21 FGM / 35 FGA scoring 50 points on 60% shooting. :eek:

This will likely be an anomaly, but if we can get even 1/2 of this production from the 2nd unit...I'd be happy.

Eddie Gill
03-20-2012, 09:50 PM
Something tells me we won't be able to fully appreciate/analyze the Barbosa trade until this team plays in a playoff series. Although the bench has been inconsistent this season, being able to bring in 3 playoff proven guys off the bench (Barbosa, Jones, Hill) is something that can absolutely shift a series. You throw Hansbrough into that mix and all of a sudden this is a very scary team in the playoffs.

3 8 thee great t h
03-20-2012, 09:52 PM
This was definitely a statement made to the NBA.

Barbosa Project 1-0

crunk-juice
03-20-2012, 09:52 PM
i'm hoping Barbosa isnt just a rental

vnzla81
03-20-2012, 09:52 PM
I will say that the 2nd Unit Plays SO MUCH BETTER when Hansbrough hits his shots.....but now that we run a much better 2nd unit with GH, Barbosa and Inferno ( as long as he sticks to playing within his own game )...I am okay with Hansbrough not always being this consistent on the offensive end.

Tyler was hitting shots because he was finally open, Barbosa helps to stretch the floor.

Nuntius
03-20-2012, 09:52 PM
Most of our guys played good to amazing but man I love Lou!

doctor-h
03-20-2012, 09:53 PM
Nice job by the guys tonight. I like seeing Hill playing the point down the stretch because of his defense and thought Lou was great even though he didn't score much. He doesn't need to to be a factor. Thought his defense on Griffin was very good.

Anthem
03-20-2012, 09:56 PM
This is a pretty big win. Obviously would have loved to have split with New York but the Clips are a legit team, and I'd expect this to be one of the more difficult games left this season.

A win against Miami would really set us up well to close strong. End of this week I'll start my yearly Magic Number series.

Nuntius
03-20-2012, 09:57 PM
Tyler was hitting shots because he was finally open, Barbosa helps to stretch the floor.

That's a valid point, actually :)

daschysta
03-20-2012, 09:58 PM
Another cool thing is that the Pacers are 10-3 vs. the "Mighty" Western conference.

Anthem
03-20-2012, 10:01 PM
Tyler was hitting shots because he was finally open, Barbosa helps to stretch the floor.
I'm sure Barbosa stretches the floor, but Tyler's been missing open shots all season. That's on him, just like it's on Granger when he misses.

That said, props to Tyler for hitting well tonight. If anything, I was thinking "It's amazing what a few dunks will do for the guy's focus and concentration." I'll be thrilled if he never throws up that running mini-hook ever again.

speakout4
03-20-2012, 10:01 PM
Pacers looked more athletic than the other guys.

MiaDragon
03-20-2012, 10:05 PM
I'm sure Barbosa stretches the floor, but Tyler's been missing open shots all season. That's on him, just like it's on Granger when he misses.

That said, props to Tyler for hitting well tonight. If anything, I was thinking "It's amazing what a few dunks will do for the guy's focus and concentration." I'll be thrilled if he never throws up that running mini-hook ever again.

You mean that spastic flop? :laugh:

Justin Tyme
03-20-2012, 10:05 PM
Lou missed some shots tonight but 7 reb & 3 BS. When Bird got Lou and McBob wasn't re-signed there was a lot of unhappy campers. One of the comments made was Lou wasn't athletic & couldn't block shots. We can put that to rest. The more I watch Lou the more I appreciate what he can do.

Who was that McBob person??

2minutes twoa
03-20-2012, 10:06 PM
Great team win! I still don't like how slow and stagnant the offense is with the first unit, but still a good win!!

Hicks
03-20-2012, 10:07 PM
You have to give George Hill some of the credit for getting Tyler going because he had at least one sweet pass to Tyler for an easy dunk to help get them going.

Hill made at least two passes tonight that I have not seen Darren Collison make all season.

PacersHomer
03-20-2012, 10:09 PM
Hill was fantastic tonight. He is a legitimate point guard IMO.

crunk-juice
03-20-2012, 10:09 PM
feel so much more comfortable with Hill rather than DC on the floor.

Hibbert
03-20-2012, 10:09 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=422&stc=1&d=1332295727
Frank Vogel's face during the CP3/Amundson thingy....

McKeyFan
03-20-2012, 10:11 PM
The Clippers' announcers spoke like it was a foregone conclusion that Hill will be the starting point guard for us soon. Whatever.

McKeyFan
03-20-2012, 10:13 PM
Barbosa is seriously good. It will fun to watch what role he ends taking on for us.

MiaDragon
03-20-2012, 10:15 PM
The Clippers' announcers spoke like it was a foregone conclusion that Hill will be the starting point guard for us soon. Whatever.

http://www.frelia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/pray3jpg.jpg

MiaDragon
03-20-2012, 10:15 PM
Barbosa is seriously good. It will fun to watch what role he ends taking on for us.

his off the ball movement is awesome.

docpaul
03-20-2012, 10:17 PM
his off the ball movement is awesome.

Impressive how quickly he adjusted to a new team as well. Looked sharp, but pretty one dimensional for sure.

Hibbert
03-20-2012, 10:17 PM
Blake Griffin is by far the laziest player I've seen all season on the defensive end. Does he only care about scoring points?(Dunks, I mean). Also, he might be Shaq bad at shooting FT's. Whoever LAC draws in the first round of the playoffs is going to beat them in a seven game series for that simple reason, well that and he doesn't know how to/or care to play defense. One more thing.....does DeAndre Jordan even have a basketball I.Q.?

xIndyFan
03-20-2012, 10:19 PM
leandro is bigger than i remember him. maybe white makes you look bigger or something.

man the 2nd unit for the clips blows. if i was VDN, my starters would average 40 mpg. bledsoe, williams, martin, evans and young i think. they looked like the 7th grade 'B' team.

LG33
03-20-2012, 10:21 PM
his off the ball movement is awesome.

This times a thousand. We need much more off-ball movement from our other players. It's no coincidence George Hill had his best assist night with Barbosa out on the floor.

McKeyFan
03-20-2012, 10:21 PM
Impressive how quickly he adjusted to a new team as well. Looked sharp, but pretty one dimensional for sure.
Yeah, he only scores by driving and shooting from outside.

He doesn't have that other dimension of dribbling around aimlessly or driving recklessly into traffic.

Nuntius
03-20-2012, 10:24 PM
Lou missed some shots tonight but 7 reb & 3 BS. When Bird got Lou and McBob wasn't re-signed there was a lot of unhappy campers. One of the comments made was Lou wasn't athletic & couldn't block shots. We can put that to rest. The more I watch Lou the more I appreciate what he can do.

You know, that's why I love me some Lousanity. His offense is comes and goes (he is really streaky) but his defense and rebounding is always there.

Dr. Hibbert
03-20-2012, 10:25 PM
This is a pretty big win. Obviously would have loved to have split with New York but the Clips are a legit team, and I'd expect this to be one of the more difficult games left this season.

A win against Miami would really set us up well to close strong. End of this week I'll start my yearly Magic Number series.

Clips a legit team? Really?

Sandman21
03-20-2012, 10:26 PM
You stay classy now, Clipper "fans"

Flipping off Area55 after you lose, not having the decency to clean up your tailgating stuff and trash the parking lot.

Stay classy, bandwagoners.

Nuntius
03-20-2012, 10:29 PM
Clips a legit team? Really?

Missing green?

xIndyFan
03-20-2012, 10:34 PM
Blake Griffin is by far the laziest player I've seen all season on the defensive end. Does he only care about scoring points?(Dunks, I mean). Also, he might be Shaq bad at shooting FT's. Whoever LAC draws in the first round of the playoffs is going to beat them in a seven game series for that simple reason, well that and he doesn't know how to/or care to play defense. One more thing.....does DeAndre Jordan even have a basketball I.Q.?

this, they really looked uninterested and uncaring. if they are not careful, they are going to rocket down the playoff seedings. chris paul looked great, but smh at the rest of the clowns.

Anthem
03-20-2012, 10:39 PM
You mean that spastic flop? :laugh:
I hate that move. It worked for him in college but it hasn't in the pros, and he hasn't removed it from his toolbox like he should.

He's better when he plays more fundamentally sound basketball.

xIndyFan
03-20-2012, 10:50 PM
how sad is the state of NBA officating.

i was glad to see dick bavetta and ronnie garrison tonight. ronnie looks like he spent the lockout eating. he should be rounding into shape instead of having a round shape. the young guy was brian forte, man, he sucked. the clips owe him a game check.

rexnom
03-20-2012, 10:55 PM
Not really comfortable with Hill/Barbosa. A lot of dribbling and passing to each other before taking shots. Thankfully, they were both hitting them tonight but that doesn't seem sustainable. I'm not read to bench DC yet and I thought AJ's absence was obvious.

Really?
03-20-2012, 10:55 PM
Not sure if someone said this yet but Roy 1 defensive rebound, just crazy... I did not get to watch the game but how was his overall play?

vnzla81
03-20-2012, 10:57 PM
Not really comfortable with Hill/Barbosa. A lot of dribbling and passing to each other before taking shots. Thankfully, they were both hitting them tonight but that doesn't seem sustainable. I'm not read to bench DC yet and I thought AJ's absence was obvious.

Obvious in what way? :hmm:

PR07
03-20-2012, 11:00 PM
-Just a real clean and efficient debut by Barbosa. Noticed some positive chemistry between Hill and him.

-Speaking of which, this team is better when George Hill is at the point.

-I thought Blake Griffin was going to explode on us early, but even though he gets labeled as slow and unathletic, I thought David West handled him fairly well, daring him to shoot from distance all game.

-For being often regarded as the best point guards in the NBA, I felt Chris Paul's night was relatively quiet.

-When Psycho T gets that midrange jumper really going, he's a really tough player to guard for the opposing teams off the bench.

Nothing earth shattering here, but just what I noticed.

Sandman21
03-20-2012, 11:00 PM
I saw Barbosa SWISHING 3s from the baseline before the game and my mouth dropped.

Then he did almost the same thing in the game and Area55 went nuts!

jeffg-body
03-20-2012, 11:01 PM
I like what I have seen so far from Barbosa. I can't wait to see how he will be 15 games from now when he understands what we do and his comfort with his new teammates. I missed most of the game so I am watching the game the second airing now.

daschysta
03-20-2012, 11:06 PM
Clips a legit team? Really?

They are the 5th seed in the west. Yes they are a legit team, just because we beat them doesn't mean they suck.

vnzla81
03-20-2012, 11:10 PM
They are the 5th seed in the west. Yes they are a legit team, just because we beat them doesn't mean they suck.

They don't suck but their coach does :laugh:

PacerGuy
03-20-2012, 11:10 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=422&stc=1&d=1332295727
Frank Vogel's face during the CP3/Amundson thingy....

I used my an app on my phone to scan that barcode on the back of K.Martin's neck & it came up: "A$$hole".
I guess that's why they call it a SmartPhone!

ensergio
03-20-2012, 11:10 PM
Barbosa is a wild card. Some nights he won't be able to shoot efficiently, in other nights he will explode.

We need to be ready for that. In other way, we are gonna be disappointed easily.

I think DC needs to start. DC is no useless and GH comes very well with the second unit. Is a strength have a bench like that, people.

graphic-er
03-20-2012, 11:23 PM
Blake Griffin is by far the laziest player I've seen all season on the defensive end. Does he only care about scoring points?(Dunks, I mean). Also, he might be Shaq bad at shooting FT's. Whoever LAC draws in the first round of the playoffs is going to beat them in a seven game series for that simple reason, well that and he doesn't know how to/or care to play defense. One more thing.....does DeAndre Jordan even have a basketball I.Q.?

LOL Blake Griffin and Defense? Griffin puts more effort in sliding back on his *** after he puts up a shot to make it look like he got fouled. You see that cat tonignt? I swear he slid like 10ft back on his butt.

But seriously I said this about Griffin back in the summer, the dude is all flash and no substance. He does not make winning basketball plays. He makes great highlights. So many holes in his overall game.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=65164&highlight=Blake+Griffin+overrated

There are posters in that thread calling him a top 10 NBA player.

tadscout
03-20-2012, 11:27 PM
Just got home from the game tonight.

-I lost count how many times CP3 went right past DC (his D was awful)

-Impressed how Roy played D tonight, he was often there and ready for CP3 when he would blow pass DC...

-I love how tough we played Griffin... Lou smacked him in the head twice in a couple min period, after which Griffin looked wobbly (as they had an infection control TO for Danny bleeding).

-Hill/Barbosa combo looked great...

-I'm not a DC fan, but really all I care is that Hill finishes the game.

-I noticed Hansbrough was setting up/taking his mid range shots about 1-2 feet in closer than normal... maybe that's what helped. (along with the Hill/Barbosa combo making more space for him)

Anthem
03-20-2012, 11:30 PM
I really liked the Hill/Barbosa combo. Not sure I'd like a Collison/Barbosa combo as much.

I can see the reasons why people want to see Hill start, but right now I'd say stick with this a few games and see what happens.

graphic-er
03-20-2012, 11:31 PM
Just got home from the game tonight.

-I lost count how many times CP3 went right past DC (his D was awful)

-Impressed how Roy played D tonight, he was often there and ready for CP3 when he would blow pass DC...

-I love how tough we played Griffin... Lou smacked him in the head twice in a couple min period, after which Griffin looked wobbly (as they had an infection control TO for Danny bleeding).

-Hill/Barbosa combo looked great...

-I'm not a DC fan, but really all I care is that Hill finishes the game.

-I noticed Hansbrough was setting up/taking his mid range shots about 1-2 feet in closer than normal... maybe that's what helped. (along with the Hill/Barbosa combo making more space for him)

I agree with all this. Great post.

I will say that this is probably the beginning of the end for DC as a starter. Hill played so well tonight, and played well with the starters. Finished up the game as well. Eventually Vogel will make the change.

Day-V
03-20-2012, 11:36 PM
We won, correct? I'll take it!

graphic-er
03-20-2012, 11:38 PM
Just seen the replay of Chris Paul little scuff with Lou. What a dirty player, grabbed him by the Neck like that. THat should have been a flagrant foul.

ThA HoyA
03-20-2012, 11:40 PM
Just seen the replay of Chris Paul little scuff with Lou. What a dirty player, grabbed him by the Neck like that. THat should have been a flagrant foul.

nonsense lou's throat grabbed pauls hand!

TheDon
03-20-2012, 11:51 PM
The crowd was amazing tonight, that felt good even more than the win to me. The fieldhouse was rockin, on the overtime show on 93.1 after the game he said it was +15,000 and having been there I believe it. Also yeah Chris Paul grabbing Lou's neck was BS. I am proud of our guys for keeping their composure but I'd have been happy if Pendergraph just decked him and knocked him out cold, what a little *****.

Something else what was the deal with area 55 tonight? there was at least 2 instances where people were trying to figure out what was going on. I'm guessing someone got thrown out for being an idiot, but having been directly above it and nowhere near the raid had no idea what was goin on just seen a few of ya pointing and singing "nananana hey hey hey goodbye". That was pretty funny.

also **sings** "THIS IS THE TALE! OF LEANDRO BARBOSA!"

Day-V
03-20-2012, 11:53 PM
Something else what was the deal with area 55 tonight? there was at least 2 instances where people were trying to figure out what was going on. I'm guessing someone got thrown out for being an idiot, but having been directly above it and nowhere near the raid had no idea what was goin on just seen a few of ya pointing and singing "nananana hey hey hey goodbye". That was pretty funny.

We had a couple of dudes in there wearing what looked like a Kobe "Black Mamba" jersey and a Steph Curry Warriors jersey. Policy is that you cannot be in Area 55 wearing the apparel of other NBA teams. So they got kicked out.


also **sings** "THIS IS THE TALE! OF LEANDRO BARBOSA!"

I see what you did there, Michael Bolton!

Nuntius
03-20-2012, 11:59 PM
They don't suck but their coach does :laugh:

Excuses ;)

vnzla81
03-21-2012, 12:01 AM
Excuses ;)

No really, I'm just saying that he is going to be the one holding that team back, he sucks.

Nuntius
03-21-2012, 12:05 AM
No really, I'm just saying that he is going to be the one holding that team back, he sucks.

I don't disagree with this.

I'm just tired of people who always point out the excuses that the other team can make when we beat them and yet emphatically refuse whatever excuse our team could come up with.

It's just a cry for consistency :p

Anthem
03-21-2012, 12:05 AM
I'm watching the game right now on tape delay, and three times now there's been a ballhandler who's been iso'd against Roy who thought that was a sure thing, only to end up giving up the ball. Roy's lateral quickness has really improved.

Holy cow Caron Butler just grabbed Tyler's butt and tried to stick a finger up his butt. Did anybody else see this? 3:28 left in the third? Tyler wasn't yelling at Blake, he was yelling at Caron.

EDIT: Seriously, somebody take a look at this. 3:38 in the third quarter, when Tyler starts yelling at the Clips & refs.

graphic-er
03-21-2012, 12:05 AM
No really, I'm just saying that he is going to be the one holding that team back, he sucks.

Vinny lucked into the current situation I agree, but Griffin will be holding them back as well until he commits to playing Defense. You think this team makes it out of the 1st round with Griffin playing like he does?

graphic-er
03-21-2012, 12:07 AM
I'm watching the game right now on tape delay, and three times now there's been a ballhandler who's been iso'd against Roy who thought that was a sure thing, only to end up giving up the ball. Roy's lateral quickness has really improved.

Holy cow Caron Butler just grabbed Tyler's butt and tried to stick a finger up his butt. Did anybody else see this? 3:28 left in the third? Tyler wasn't yelling at Blake, he was yelling at Caron.

So thats what that was....then but made the movie camera mime. I assume he wants to make a film with Tyler? Weird...

Hibbert
03-21-2012, 12:11 AM
I'm watching the game right now on tape delay, and three times now there's been a ballhandler who's been iso'd against Roy who thought that was a sure thing, only to end up giving up the ball. Roy's lateral quickness has really improved.

Holy cow Caron Butler just grabbed Tyler's butt and tried to stick a finger up his butt. Did anybody else see this? 3:28 left in the third? Tyler wasn't yelling at Blake, he was yelling at Caron.

EDIT: Seriously, somebody take a look at this. 3:38 in the third quarter, when Tyler starts yelling at the Clips & refs.
Didn't you know that Caron plays for the other team?

Day-V
03-21-2012, 12:12 AM
So thats what that was....then but made the movie camera mime. I assume he wants to make a film with Tyler? Weird...


Gotta rubber up for that kinda stuff now out there in La-La Land. State Law.

http://media.mlive.com/chronicle/entertainment_impact/photo/9211909-large.jpg

Anthem
03-21-2012, 12:15 AM
Jokes aside, somebody else look and see if I'm crazy.

vnzla81
03-21-2012, 12:20 AM
I don't disagree with this.

I'm just tired of people who always point out the excuses that the other team can make when we beat them and yet emphatically refuse whatever excuse our team could come up with.

It's just a cry for consistency :p

Damn you really like to play the victim don't you?..., I never said that we beat them because their coach sucks, I was just pointing out that their coach sucks that is it.

MiaDragon
03-21-2012, 12:21 AM
Jokes aside, somebody else look and see if I'm crazy.

check the game thread, we saw it.

Eddie Gill
03-21-2012, 12:22 AM
Maybe the most impressive play of the night was Hill grabbing Blake late in the 4th. He literally grabbed him out of the air and stopped him from going to the ground. Dude is STRONG.

Day-V
03-21-2012, 12:24 AM
Maybe the most impressive play of the night was Hill grabbing Blake late in the 4th. He literally grabbed him out of the air and stopped him from going to the ground. Dude is STRONG.

It's cause he went to IUPUI. Awesome Physical Education Department over there. :cool:

Anthem
03-21-2012, 12:34 AM
I've got 3 minutes left in the game, and so far I'm not digging Hill running point with the starters. Offense has really stagnated over the last few minutes. Maybe a fluke, but we definitely need a bigger sample size before saying Hill's a good fit with the starters.

TheDon
03-21-2012, 12:36 AM
Holy cow Caron Butler just grabbed Tyler's butt and tried to stick a finger up his butt.

someone should give lance caron's phone number

vnzla81
03-21-2012, 12:42 AM
http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2012/03/20/a-sign-of-things-to-come-at-point-guard/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter



A sign of things to come at point guard
40 minutes ago | Written by Mike Wells | * 0 Comments
Frank Vogel may not make George Hill the starting point guard, but what he did during the fourth quarter Tuesday was just as effective.

Vogel went with Hill over Darren Collison the entire fourth quarter.

You can’t blame Vogel for making that call.

Hill scored 15 points on 6-of-7 shooting, dished out six assists and didn’t have any turnovers in 28 minutes off the bench. Collison, meanwhile, had four points, two assists and a turnover in 25 minutes.

“George Hill was the hottest guy on floor,” Vogel said. “He did a good job. He got six assists, no turnovers. A heck of a night. He made a number of plays late in the shot clock that really bust the game open.* We’re always going to go with the hot hand down the stretch. He was the guy.”

Hill was always looking up the court trying to find the open man while also still being aggressive with his shot.

To Collison’s credit, he was up cheering his teammates throughout the fourth quarter when they led by as many as 19 points.

It’ll be interesting if Vogel will make the switch or keep things the way they are, with the exception of going with Hill in the fourth quarter of close games.

If Tuesday was any indication, it should be an easy decision for Vogel.

Kid Minneapolis
03-21-2012, 12:43 AM
Barbosa fits right in with the theme that Bird is pushing with Hill, Hansbrough, and Amundson --- scrappy playmakers with no quit in 'em. I like it.

Kemo
03-21-2012, 12:47 AM
someone should give lance caron's phone number

lol definitely a

http://s2.favim.com/orig/36/bazinga-funny-funny-gif-gif-leonard-Favim.com-290671.gif

Like I said in the gamethread... I think Caron learned the "finger in the bunghole" move from Reggie Evans...
How Ironic they are on the same team? (pun not intended, but if the shoe fits.. lmao we'll run with it)

http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/images/reggie_evans.jpg

http://thesportshernia.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451b84f69e2012877a9a2e1970c-350wi

Hibbert
03-21-2012, 12:51 AM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=423&stc=1&d=1332305446

Kemo
03-21-2012, 12:53 AM
haha that guy looks a little "too" happy with his job ..

Nuntius
03-21-2012, 01:02 AM
I've got 3 minutes left in the game, and so far I'm not digging Hill running point with the starters. Offense has really stagnated over the last few minutes. Maybe a fluke, but we definitely need a bigger sample size before saying Hill's a good fit with the starters.

I agree. People see Hill running the point well with the 2nd unit and automatically think that he will do the same thing with the starters.

Wrong!

The 2nd unit has very good off-ball movement. Lou and DJ are excellent cutters to the rim. Barbosa has great off the ball movement. Tyler moves around even if he doesn't know where he's going at times.

Now, let's look at the starters:

Roy: Posting up

West: Running the Pick and Pop or Posting up

Granger: Spotting up or Back cutting

Paul: Trying to move off the ball, Back cutting or Spotting up

Collison: Back cutting or Spotting up

There's really not a lot of off the ball movement with our starters. No matter who the point guard is they tend to stagnate.

ilive4sports
03-21-2012, 01:13 AM
In what ways does DC run the offense better with the starters than George Hill would? I really cant think of anything. Say GH and DC are even in that aspect, Hill is far superior on the defensive end. George Hill should be starting. I have been a DC supporter since he came here. But his play has regressed, especially this month. His defense at the start of the year was much improved. Now its not.

DC has not been running the team very well as of late. His defense has taken a step back. While this has gone on, George Hill has clearly become more comfortable with this team. There isnt a good reason for DC to be starting anymore.

vnzla81
03-21-2012, 01:16 AM
In what ways does DC run the offense better with the starters than George Hill would? I really cant think of anything. Say GH and DC are even in that aspect, Hill is far superior on the defensive end. George Hill should be starting. I have been a DC supporter since he came here. But his play has regressed, especially this month. His defense at the start of the year was much improved. Now its not.

DC has not been running the team very well as of late. His defense has taken a step back. While this has gone on, George Hill has clearly become more comfortable with this team. There isnt a good reason for DC to be starting anymore.

Damn you finally got to see the light I'm proud of you.





By the way stop hating on our players!!! ;)

ilive4sports
03-21-2012, 01:21 AM
Damn you finally got to see the light I'm proud of you.





By the way stop hating on our players!!! ;)

I was pleased with how DC was playing earlier in the year. He was running the offense rather well and his defense, while certainly not great, i wasnt facepalming at it. But something happened. I have no idea what, but he just seems to hit a wall. And Hill has been improving, playing like he was in San Antonio, they player that Coach Pop loved.

And im not hating, im just loving George Hill more :D

Anthem
03-21-2012, 01:24 AM
I agree. People see Hill running the point well with the 2nd unit and automatically think that he will do the same thing with the starters.

Wrong!
I dunno about that. He may just need more time with the starting unit. I'm just saying it's too soon to make those kind of claims.

I get why people want to upgrade from Collison, but he's working reasonably well with the starters and Hill looks fantastic with Barbosa, Jones/Granger, Tyler, and Lou.

Anthem
03-21-2012, 01:26 AM
In what ways does DC run the offense better with the starters than George Hill would?
Did you see tonight's game? I'm not talking "would," I'm talking "did."

Hill looked awesome running the point with the backups, but awful running it with the starters. Maybe they just need more time to gel, but given what we've actually seen so far (as opposed to what we imagine is possible) it's pretty clearly too soon to talk about a role reversal.

ilive4sports
03-21-2012, 01:32 AM
Did you see tonight's game? I'm not talking "would," I'm talking "did."

Hill looked awesome running the point with the backups, but awful running it with the starters. Maybe they just need more time to gel, but given what we've actually seen so far (as opposed to what we imagine is possible) it's pretty clearly too soon to talk about a role reversal.

I dont think Hill looked any worse working with the starters than DC did. A lot of the damage Hill did early was with Danny on the floor as well. Of course George will run the second unit better now because thats what hes used too. I dont see the starters offense really being worse with GH than DC but i absolutely see the defense being better.

vnzla81
03-21-2012, 01:35 AM
I was pleased with how DC was playing earlier in the year. He was running the offense rather well and his defense, while certainly not great, i wasnt facepalming at it. But something happened. I have no idea what, but he just seems to hit a wall. And Hill has been improving, playing like he was in San Antonio, they player that Coach Pop loved.

And im not hating, im just loving George Hill more :D

I don't know but I never got to see the greatness that you guys were seeing, to me DC has been the same since the beggining of the year.

vnzla81
03-21-2012, 01:37 AM
I dont think Hill looked any worse working with the starters than DC did. A lot of the damage Hill did early was with Danny on the floor as well. Of course George will run the second unit better now because thats what hes used too. I dont see the starters offense really being worse with GH than DC but i absolutely see the defense being better.

Wow ........ :cry:

Anthem
03-21-2012, 01:38 AM
A lot of the damage Hill did early was with Danny on the floor as well.
Because Danny frequently plays with the second unit. The lineup you're thinking of is Hill/Barbosa/Granger/Tyler/Lou.


I dont think Hill looked any worse working with the starters than DC did. . . Of course George will run the second unit better now because thats what hes used too.
So give him 5 games where he plays minutes with the starting unit but doesn't actually start the game, and let's see what happens. Like I keep saying, the sample size is too small.


I dont see the starters offense really being worse with GH than DC but i absolutely see the defense being better.
In theory, I agree. But their biggest run of the game came against Hill and the starters. Our defense wasn't better, and our offense was worse.

ilive4sports
03-21-2012, 01:47 AM
I don't know but I never got to see the greatness that you guys were seeing, to me DC has been the same since the beggining of the year.

Not greatness, but just solid point guard play.



Wow ........ :cry:
I'm confused.

TheDavisBrothers
03-21-2012, 01:52 AM
Not greatness, but just solid point guard play.

That's just part of vnzla81's "charm", he's rediculous exaggerations...


I'm confused.

He tends to have that affect on many...

vnzla81
03-21-2012, 01:54 AM
Not greatness, but just solid point guard play.



I'm confused.

That means that I'm proud of you for finally getting to see the light good job. ;)

ilive4sports
03-21-2012, 02:08 AM
Because Danny frequently plays with the second unit. The lineup you're thinking of is Hill/Barbosa/Granger/Tyler/Lou.


So give him 5 games where he plays minutes with the starting unit but doesn't actually start the game, and let's see what happens. Like I keep saying, the sample size is too small.


In theory, I agree. But their biggest run of the game came against Hill and the starters. Our defense wasn't better, and our offense was worse.

Yes, Danny frequently plays with the second unit. I brought it up because to show that GH and Danny have some familiarity and worked well together tonight. I expect more of the same as he works with other starters. His PnR with Tyler tonight was better than any PnR Collison has ran with Tyler or West. That could be a huge benefit to the starting line up, as West has a great PnR game.

I expect to see more of what we saw tonight, GH closing the game with the starters, getting more minutes with the starters and learning how to gel with them which then turns to him starting games. The thing is, playoffs are coming fast. If the move is to be made, it needs to be made fast.

And I'm not seeing this run your talking about. Looking at the play by play (i did watch the game too), when West came in in the 4th at the 4:26 mark we were up 81-94, 13 points. The lead fell to 11 briefly, but then went up to 17. We won 89-102, which is 13 points. Being the end of the game, we were also chewing up clock.

Even if we look to when Hibs and PG came in (so it was GH/PG/DG/TH/RH), it was a 17 point game, 76-93. The closest they ever were after that was within 11, when the score was 84-95 after Mo Williams hit a 3 (which was right after West subbed in for TH, literally right after, it was the first possession after the sub). Pacers were up 18 (briefly) with the bench in, it fell to 11 while the starters + Hill were in, which is the run I'm assuming you are talking about. But it quickly became a 17 point lead again. We went into the quarter with a 12 point lead and ended it with a 13 point lead. I really don't see much of a run that happened. I would say how the starters played in the first quarter was the worst stretch of basketball for the Pacers tonight.

Nuntius
03-21-2012, 02:12 AM
In what ways does DC run the offense better with the starters than George Hill would? I really cant think of anything. Say GH and DC are even in that aspect, Hill is far superior on the defensive end. George Hill should be starting. I have been a DC supporter since he came here. But his play has regressed, especially this month. His defense at the start of the year was much improved. Now its not.

DC has not been running the team very well as of late. His defense has taken a step back. While this has gone on, George Hill has clearly become more comfortable with this team. There isnt a good reason for DC to be starting anymore.

I'm not saying that DC would run the offense better. I'd have no problem with George Hill starting. He would be indeed a big upgrade defensively.

What I'm trying to say is this:

Our first unit offense sucks!

I mean, really. They are stagnant, they don't move well without the ball and the plays they use are repetitive to say the least.

I'm not saying that GH would do worse with the 1st unit. What I'm saying is that the reason that our 1st unit is stagnant is not because of DC. Our 2nd unit has a much better movement than our first unit.



By the way stop hating on our players!!! ;)

You know, you keep repeating this. It's not hate when you talk with facts and speak with reason. It's hate when you exploit every given opportunity to bash a player you don't like.

When you start a game thread after a win with "DC sucks" after a game in which DC shot horribly but had 9 assists and only 1 turnover in 39 minutes, that's hate.


I dunno about that. He may just need more time with the starting unit. I'm just saying it's too soon to make those kind of claims.


Yeah, that may be the case. I'm not saying that GH would not be good. All I was trying to say was that our 2nd unit does a better job in moving without the ball than our starters.

ilive4sports
03-21-2012, 02:16 AM
I'm not saying that DC would run the offense better. I'd have no problem with George Hill starting. He would be indeed a big upgrade defensively.

What I'm trying to say is this:

Our first unit offense sucks!

I mean, really. They are stagnant, they don't move well without the ball and the plays they use are repetitive to say the least.

I'm not saying that GH would do worse with the 1st unit. What I'm saying is that the reason that our 1st unit is stagnant is not because of DC. Our 2nd unit has a much better movement than our first unit.



You know, you keep repeating this. It's not hate when you talk with facts and speak with reason. It's hate when you exploit every given opportunity to bash a player you don't like.

When you start a game thread after a win with "DC sucks" after a game in which DC shot horribly but had 9 assists and only 1 turnover in 39 minutes, that's hate.



Yeah, that may be the case. I'm not saying that GH would not be good. All I was trying to say was that our 2nd unit does a better job in moving without the ball than our starters.

I agree, our first unit offense has been lackluster lately. But to say its not DC's fault, I will disagree. Entirely his fault? Of course not. Hibbert has a lot to do with this. But DC has not been running the offense as well as he was earlier in the season.

The thing I am getting at is, I don't really see a negative to starting George Hill, while I see one in starting DC, which is defense.

AesopRockOn
03-21-2012, 02:16 AM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=423&stc=1&d=1332305446

Cassell Gets A Human Probe.

Nuntius
03-21-2012, 02:38 AM
I agree, our first unit offense has been lackluster lately. But to say its not DC's fault, I will disagree. Entirely his fault? Of course not. Hibbert has a lot to do with this. But DC has not been running the offense as well as he was earlier in the season.

Agreed. I should have put the entirely part on my sentence as well. Thanks for the correction :)



The thing I am getting at is, I don't really see a negative to starting George Hill, while I see one in starting DC, which is defense.

I agree with this as well. What I'm saying is that people shouldn't expect of George Hill to play offensively with the 1st unit like he does with the 2nd unit. The 2nd unit has much better movement. Hill is not going to change our offensive flow because I have the feeling that the way the 1st unit plays offensively is supposed to be like that (or at last close to it) by design.

So, don't expect GH having 10 or 12 assist games like DC had earlier in the season. He will help a lot but our offense is not going to change its mindset.

Heisenberg
03-21-2012, 03:17 AM
Someone smarter than me really has to tell me why the hell Roy hedges the ball handler so hard off screens. Every single time, legitimately seems like that, he's caught out on the wing not even glancing at the screener to recover and just barely trotting back to his man provided he's not 8 feet behind the driving small guy.

It can't be on Roy at this point, there's absolutely no way he's getting hung out there 4+ times a night to get blown by and trot back into the post if it's not by design. I just want to know why. It's really, really frustrating to see him 22+ feet out acting like he's trying to corral a ball handler.

ilive4sports
03-21-2012, 03:26 AM
So I turned on ESPN to watch SportsCenter and found our own Coach Vogel on the intro. He shows us how to flop:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wEJcGYlSL70" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Sherlock
03-21-2012, 04:18 AM
Yeah, he only scores by driving and shooting from outside.

He doesn't have that other dimension of dribbling around aimlessly or driving recklessly into traffic.

This.

Is he one-dimensional? Yes.
But he is very good in this particular skill.
But his one-dimensional skill is what we need desperately and it will help opening others, like Tyler and Lou.

As long as he does his best efficiently, I don´t care he is one dimensional or not.

Midcoasted
03-21-2012, 05:12 AM
Barbosa is not one dimensional. Is he great at defense? No. Is he adequate? Yes. I think people are underrating his consistency. People act like he did something tonight that was extraordinary and he is going to struggle to replicate it. He had 12 points. That is right at his average while getting bench minutes on a bad team. He will still get those 12 points here pretty much every night. The guy is blazing fast and excellent at getting to the line. He is also a good shooter.

Troy Murphy was one dimensional. Barbosa is far from it. I think our bench may be tops in the league now with Lou playing out of his freaking mind. Great win tonight. I'm really pissed I watched ESPN and all they could talk about was Griffin and said Hansbrough needs to hit the weights because Blake drove around him and dunked once. Also had him at number 5 on top plays for 2 mediocre dunks. But when Griffin does it, it's amazing!

McKeyFan
03-21-2012, 06:52 AM
George Hill is better than Collison. He should probably start and finish games. This is based on a year of sample sizes.

But I'm wondering if last night's sample size was tremendously misleading, due to Mr. Barbosa. His offensive abilities totally change the offense. Things open up. Defenses loosen up. Of course George Hill looked great at the point last night.

Our experimentations need to include Barbosa at the starting two (or at least the finishing two) and Barbosa as the starting/finishing point. He's too good not to explore all the options.

beast23
03-21-2012, 07:14 AM
By the way stop hating on our players!!! ;)
Wow. Perhaps we would take this statement more seriously if you were to stop "loving on the players of other teams".

The Sleeze
03-21-2012, 09:01 AM
I'm really pissed I watched ESPN and all they could talk about was Griffin and said Hansbrough needs to hit the weights because Blake drove around him and dunked once. Also had him at number 5 on top plays for 2 mediocre dunks. But when Griffin does it, it's amazing!

Griffin may be stronger, faster, more explosive and more athletic than Tyler, but the one thing Tyler has over Blake is a W

BillS
03-21-2012, 09:19 AM
There's really not a lot of off the ball movement with our starters. No matter who the point guard is they tend to stagnate.

I thanked this because it is a very good point.

However, I would offer that none of our PGs are what one would call stellar at getting the ball to someone in position to shoot, so offensive players who score from spot-shooting as opposed to drives will tend to stay in position in order to receive the ball - that, and the PG will tend to hold the ball until the receiver has been in position for a few seconds before passing it, causing the offense to pause.

I'm not saying this is completely the case, but it is something I've noticed over the years with PGs who don't make good passes. It becomes almost a chicken-and-egg situation.

graphic-er
03-21-2012, 09:22 AM
George Hill is better than Collison. He should probably start and finish games. This is based on a year of sample sizes.

But I'm wondering if last night's sample size was tremendously misleading, due to Mr. Barbosa. His offensive abilities totally change the offense. Things open up. Defenses loosen up. Of course George Hill looked great at the point last night.

Our experimentations need to include Barbosa at the starting two (or at least the finishing two) and Barbosa as the starting/finishing point. He's too good not to explore all the options.

The #1 thing i noticed about Hill at point last night is that he did not dribble himself into trouble. He was very decisive with the ball.

There were a few instances where he made no passes or took a contested 3, but at the same time, guys weren't trying to get open for a pass either.

But he made very timely passes as well. Hit Barbosa on that back door cut buzzer beater.

I did not like his jump in the air and fling the ball to the screener motion he used multiple times though.

Hicks
03-21-2012, 09:40 AM
I agree. People see Hill running the point well with the 2nd unit and automatically think that he will do the same thing with the starters.

Wrong!

The 2nd unit has very good off-ball movement. Lou and DJ are excellent cutters to the rim. Barbosa has great off the ball movement. Tyler moves around even if he doesn't know where he's going at times.

Now, let's look at the starters:

Roy: Posting up

West: Running the Pick and Pop or Posting up

Granger: Spotting up or Back cutting

Paul: Trying to move off the ball, Back cutting or Spotting up

Collison: Back cutting or Spotting up

There's really not a lot of off the ball movement with our starters. No matter who the point guard is they tend to stagnate.

Defense! *clapclap* Defense! *clapclap*

Well, that and I feel better about Hill hitting a jumpshot when his man is still nearby, while DC needs to be wide open.

Plus, as low as the bar is, he still made passes last night that I do not see Darren Collison making.

Honestly, the only reason I would be hesitant to make this switch is that I'm worried that DC will actually make the bench worse.

Sandman21
03-21-2012, 09:44 AM
Also had him at number 5 on top plays for 2 mediocre dunks. But when Griffin does it, it's amazing!
The security guy who removed and reseated the Area55 invader with the Golden State jersey and his fratboy buddies last night was more amazing that Fake's dunks.:laugh:

Unclebuck
03-21-2012, 10:08 AM
Another cool thing is that the Pacers are 10-3 vs. the "Mighty" Western conference.


The mighty west is no longer, the east is clearly better now

Unclebuck
03-21-2012, 10:10 AM
Blake Griffin is by far the laziest player I've seen all season on the defensive end. Does he only care about scoring points?(Dunks, I mean). Also, he might be Shaq bad at shooting FT's. Whoever LAC draws in the first round of the playoffs is going to beat them in a seven game series for that simple reason, well that and he doesn't know how to/or care to play defense. One more thing.....does DeAndre Jordan even have a basketball I.Q.?


All excellent points. It has to be driving Chris Paul nuts. I understand why they miss Billups so much.

Unclebuck
03-21-2012, 10:15 AM
I'm watching the game right now on tape delay, and three times now there's been a ballhandler who's been iso'd against Roy who thought that was a sure thing, only to end up giving up the ball. Roy's lateral quickness has really improved.

Holy cow Caron Butler just grabbed Tyler's butt and tried to stick a finger up his butt. Did anybody else see this? 3:28 left in the third? Tyler wasn't yelling at Blake, he was yelling at Caron.

EDIT: Seriously, somebody take a look at this. 3:38 in the third quarter, when Tyler starts yelling at the Clips & refs.


I noticed that and that is exactly why Tyler got so upset. Quinn and Chris didn't seem to notice it though/.

Since86
03-21-2012, 10:17 AM
I didn't see the finger in the butt, but I saw Blake running his mouth while he was on the ground. That's what I thought Tyler was responding too.

Ratking
03-21-2012, 10:31 AM
Honestly, the only reason I would be hesitant to make this switch is that I'm worried that DC will actually make the bench worse.

I agree with this concern. I really like the way Hill can come in with the second unit, while still playing a majority of the PG minutes. Tonight he had 28, and I would love to see that extended to 32-34 next game, but Im not too sure I want to see him start and then have DC leading the second unit.

Last night Hill played like an All-star. That one dribble move into the lane with the wrap-around assist to Tyler was star-caliber. I didn't realize how much potential Hill still has until last night's performance.

I think its worth a shot to start Hill next game (low-risk move against the Wizards), but I'm just expecting we might see an even more self-indulgent, tunnel-visioned DC with the second unit. Perhaps Barbosa could prove to be the better man to bring the ball up alongside DC. Also, the defense that we saw in the second unit last night would not be there if DC were at point. Its great to have such a bruising unit come in off the bench.

While I think Dahntay has been playing well, I don't see why Paul George isn't subbed in earlier in the 2nd quarter at SF. I love what Vogel did with keeping Granger out there to start the 2nd, but would like to see Paul replace him to finish out the 2nd at SF with Barbosa and Hill in the backcourt. I understand that Dahntay deserves some playing time, but its not right for our budding star to get 24 minutes after his recent progress. I would much rather see that 2nd quarter PT at SF go to Paul.

Justin Tyme
03-21-2012, 10:39 AM
-I lost count how many times CP3 went right past DC (his D was awful)


It seems to me Collison has a problem playing against ex-teammates. Not sure if he trys too hard, he's not comfortable playing against them, or they are so much better they just make him look worse than normal.

Justin Tyme
03-21-2012, 10:45 AM
So thats what that was....then but made the movie camera mime. I assume he wants to make a film with Tyler? Weird...


Isn't that taunting? Where were the refs to make the call?

beast23
03-21-2012, 10:56 AM
Honestly, the only reason I would be hesitant to make this switch is that I'm worried that DC will actually make the bench worse.
I don't know if I'd call that "the elephant in the room", but it is certainly a very important point.

The two units approach offense in totally different ways. At the beginning of the season the first unit moved the ball extremely well, but now is much more stagnant and the ball is not moved nearly as well.

Conversely, the second unit is able to approach the game in two different ways. They can rely on Hill, Jones or Barbosa to seek his own opportunity and find the appropriate pass as their own opportunities break down, or they can move the ball much like the first unit used to do.

I think in looking at the first unit and the how its offense has settled into more isolation opportunities or the occasional pick and roll, I believe the problem of the point guard comes more into play. The less a team is willing to move without the ball, the more the point guard must be a timely and effective distributor of the ball. Let's face it if you have Hibbert or West in the post, the ball must be effectively delivered to them within a small window of opportunity or that opportunity disappears. Collison does not seem to be able to do that on a consistent basis.

I think that in a perfect world, Hill is the near-perfect solution as a PG for our second unit. He is not the best PG in the world, but has ample assistance from Barbosa and Jones, which will make the second unit very effective and very dangerous.

With that said, the first unit rightfully begs for the same type of power jolt or improvement that Barbosa will bring the second unit... only that improvement is best made at PG and not SG. If the first unit consists of players that are more stagnant and that do not move without the ball, it absolutely MUST have a better distributor of the ball as its PG.

That is precisely why the starting PG position must be addressed this summer. I don't hold out hope for landing Williams or getting a trade for Rondo. But do we really need for that to happen? Personally, I don't think so. I'd take a player that is much more cap friendly and that is capable of delivering the ball. Not to turn this thread into another trade thread, but good distributors of the ball that may be more cap friendly for me would be Nash or Hinrich. Nash is one of the best at getting the ball where it needs to be precisely when it is needed, but is not a great defender. Hinrich is a good distributor of the ball in his own right, certainly not on the level of Nash, but is also a great defender.

We don't have to have a young superstar at the PG position. All we really need is a seasoned vet who knows what the hell he is doing. I'm becoming more and more certain that that individual is not Collison.

Justin Tyme
03-21-2012, 11:05 AM
Someone smarter than me really has to tell me why the hell Roy hedges the ball handler so hard off screens. Every single time, legitimately seems like that, he's caught out on the wing not even glancing at the screener to recover and just barely trotting back to his man provided he's not 8 feet behind the driving small guy.

It can't be on Roy at this point, there's absolutely no way he's getting hung out there 4+ times a night to get blown by and trot back into the post if it's not by design. I just want to know why. It's really, really frustrating to see him 22+ feet out acting like he's trying to corral a ball handler.


I've been saying it's Vogel's fault for this for awhile. It's b/c the PG isn't playing good "D", so Vogel has Roy helping out which shouldn't be the case. Roy needs to be patrolling the paint not out front.

McKeyFan
03-21-2012, 11:07 AM
I would like to see Dahntay keep his minutes, play some two, and reduce Collisons minutes by playing Hill and Barbosa at point.

Yep. I do.

This also helps keep Paul George on the floor.

Justin Tyme
03-21-2012, 11:12 AM
Wow. Perhaps we would take this statement more seriously if you were to stop "loving on the players of other teams".



It's only a matter of time b4 it's Version II of trade Granger for Monta AGAIN!

vnzla81
03-21-2012, 11:21 AM
It's only a matter of time b4 it's Version II of trade Granger for Monta AGAIN!

To be a guy that's supposed to be tired of that conversation you love to bring this up on every thread :rolleyes:

By the way I think is time for you to call Larry out for signing Foster for the 1000 time. ;)

JEM
03-21-2012, 11:23 AM
I never laughed so hard watching a basketball game when I saw Tyler and Blake locked up only for Blake to take a dive.. It looked like Tyler was trying to hold him up but Griffin was determined to get a foul called.

What a phony.

Trader Joe
03-21-2012, 11:23 AM
I gotta say, I think we can now firmly say that perhaps George Hill struggling at point early in the season was more rust than anything else. I don't think we will see him start because of the ramifications of the DC/Barbosa back court defensively, but I do think he will finish games.

Also, Caron Butler is a douche.

vnzla81
03-21-2012, 11:27 AM
Regarding the second unit and DC, yeah I agree with Hicks, I love how the second unit plays that I'm not sure if adding DC would destroy the ball movement, having Hill,Barbosa together is important because of the floor spacing they give Tyler and Lou to do damage.

Justin Tyme
03-21-2012, 11:36 AM
I don't know if I'd call that "the elephant in the room", but it is certainly a very important point.

The two units approach offense in totally different ways. At the beginning of the season the first unit moved the ball extremely well, but now is much more stagnant and the ball is not moved nearly as well.

Conversely, the second unit is able to approach the game in two different ways. They can rely on Hill, Jones or Barbosa to seek his own opportunity and find the appropriate pass as their own opportunities break down, or they can move the ball much like the first unit used to do.

I think in looking at the first unit and the how its offense has settled into more isolation opportunities or the occasional pick and roll, I believe the problem of the point guard comes more into play. The less a team is willing to move without the ball, the more the point guard must be a timely and effective distributor of the ball. Let's face it if you have Hibbert or West in the post, the ball must be effectively delivered to them within a small window of opportunity or that opportunity disappears. Collison does not seem to be able to do that on a consistent basis.

I think that in a perfect world, Hill is the near-perfect solution as a PG for our second unit. He is not the best PG in the world, but has ample assistance from Barbosa and Jones, which will make the second unit very effective and very dangerous.

With that said, the first unit rightfully begs for the same type of power jolt or improvement that Barbosa will bring the second unit... only that improvement is best made at PG and not SG. If the first unit consists of players that are more stagnant and that do not move without the ball, it absolutely MUST have a better distributor of the ball as its PG.

That is precisely why the starting PG position must be addressed this summer. I don't hold out hope for landing Williams or getting a trade for Rondo. But do we really need for that to happen? Personally, I don't think so. I'd take a player that is much more cap friendly and that is capable of delivering the ball. Not to turn this thread into another trade thread, but good distributors of the ball that may be more cap friendly for me would be Nash or Hinrich. Nash is one of the best at getting the ball where it needs to be precisely when it is needed, but is not a great defender. Hinrich is a good distributor of the ball in his own right, certainly not on the level of Nash, but is also a great defender.

We don't have to have a young superstar at the PG position. All we really need is a seasoned vet who knows what the hell he is doing. I'm becoming more and more certain that that individual is not Collison.



DRAGIC

How much more cap friendly can you get? As I've pointed out b4, he's averaging 16/13 since Lowry has been out. Guess what? He was 16/7/13 last night. He's a distributor, exactly what this team needs. This team doesn't need a star PG, it needs a PG who can distribute the ball to his fellow teammates for baskets. It shouldn't make a difference if the player is a household name or not, but that they can get the job done. When that happens it makes the other players better. That's what is needed, and the cost should be more than reasonable. JMOAA

Justin Tyme
03-21-2012, 11:52 AM
By the way I think is time for you to call Larry out for signing Foster for the 1000 time. ;)


Foster who? Oh yeah, Foster the ghost employee. 1,001 time just for you! :D

Justin Tyme
03-21-2012, 12:11 PM
Nice win last night, but what the heckydurn has happened to West's game? He was so frustrated last night with his game and the fouls called on him I really thought he was going to a tech.

While watching the NCAA tourney, I heard a coach talking about you had to play inside out and not outside in. My 1st thought was here is a college coach saying what I felt the Pacers should do more of with Hibbert. Hibbert, iirc, only took 8 shots last night, hit 4. I'd like to see more touches for Hibbert. He has to have a more focal point in the offense.

I was listening to Shaq on tv the other evening saying Dwight needed to demand the ball more from his teammates instead of them constantly shooting 3's. He made a comment about how he addressed that with players who wouldn't get him the ball. Interesting.

tadscout
03-21-2012, 01:08 PM
http://www.nba.com/video/games/pacers/2012/03/21/0021100676_lac_ind_play6.nba

Link to poor Tyler being molested by Kenyon Martin. (most visible near the end at a different angle)

LA_Confidential
03-21-2012, 02:37 PM
Good solid win. Big time bench play. I'm starting to like Lou a lot as well. When Tyler is on were good . Danny showed up big tonight, all I ask is that he does it consistently. Roy too. West was a victim of bs officiating so he gets a pass.

As for the DC/GH debate, yes GH is better but he doesn't need to start. He needs to finish and play a nice chunk of minutes until we can replace DC all together. One thing I truly can live without is the DC/GH combo on the floor. I don't like it one bit. DC is nowhere near a good enough player to have that small of a backcourt. DC cannot come off a picks, its like he's stuck on fly paper or something. We need to scrap that until we net us another 6'2-6'3 ballhandler who can pass, d-up and hit shot with a hand in his face. DC has none of these attributes.

Great debut by the blur, hope he and Hill become long term investments. Their presence lessens the need for a star pg. Can't believe I'm saying this but a bulldog like Jarret Jack would be a pretty damn good piece to have right about now. S/N, I love Blur's attitude. You can tell he's humble and he's happy as hell to be back in the playoff hunt.

Welcome.

Nuntius
03-21-2012, 02:51 PM
Defense! *clapclap* Defense! *clapclap*

Well, that and I feel better about Hill hitting a jumpshot when his man is still nearby, while DC needs to be wide open.

Plus, as low as the bar is, he still made passes last night that I do not see Darren Collison making.

Honestly, the only reason I would be hesitant to make this switch is that I'm worried that DC will actually make the bench worse.

As I've said numerous times I'd have no problem with Hill starting if the reason for the change is Hill's defense.

What I have a problem with is people alluding that Hill would be a better point offensively just because he plays with a unit that actually moves without the ball.

vnzla81
03-21-2012, 03:01 PM
West was a victim of bs officiating so he gets a pass.


http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/1/6/1615d_ORIG-NotSureIfSerious.jpg

TheDavisBrothers
03-21-2012, 03:45 PM
The mighty west is no longer, the east is clearly better now

Only at the top, the West is wwwwwaaaaaayyyyyy deeper...

Trader Joe
03-21-2012, 03:48 PM
Only at the top, the West is wwwwwaaaaaayyyyyy deeper...

Really? You think Denver and Houston are significantly better than Boston or New York? Look at our record this year against the East compared to the West. We're beating up on the West like our kid brother and just a game over .500 in the East.

TheDavisBrothers
03-21-2012, 04:09 PM
Really? You think Denver and Houston are significantly better than Boston or New York? Look at our record this year against the East compared to the West. We're beating up on the West like our kid brother and just a game over .500 in the East.

I didn't know only playoff teams matter :rolleyes:

daschysta
03-21-2012, 04:20 PM
The East has better playoff teams than the West, and at the end of the Day, yes, that is all that really matters.

We've sure as heck had a tough time with the east relative to the west.