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View Full Version : Vogel Changing Rotation (Hill Not Starting)



ECKrueger
03-19-2012, 02:18 PM
Mike Wells

Frank Vogel is changing the rotation. Leandro Barbosa is in as the backup shooting guard. George Hill is now the backup point guard. A.J. Price is the third point guard. Barbosa will make his Pacers debut against the Clippers tomorrow. "(Barbosa will play) anywhere between 15-20 minutes," Vogel said. "He picked up a lot of our basic offensive sets today pretty quickly. Well see how hes going and well adjust it when hes out there."

http://www.sulia.com/channel/basketball/f/333fb9e8-be83-4f59-82ac-971d2527aed6/?source=twitter

BringJackBack
03-19-2012, 02:21 PM
Ugh... Vogel's just too player friendly, I'd say. If he says that Hill is playing well at shooting guard, and then switches him to backup, it's just safe to say he is just intimidated to make the switch.

CableKC
03-19-2012, 02:21 PM
So...we are looking at:

Starting Lineup - DC/PG/Granger/West/Hibbert
2nd Unit - GH/Blur/Inferno/Hansbrough/Amundson

Not surprising.....

vnzla81
03-19-2012, 02:25 PM
I think Vogel wants to see what Hill can do at PG with the second unit before he can move him to the starting unit, by the way I really hope we don't see AJ that much for the rest of the year.

Kstat
03-19-2012, 02:29 PM
Still trying to wrap my mind around the former 6th man for the spurs and the former 6th man for the suns trying to co-exist on the same 2nd unit...

Still think DC is a better candidate to be pushing the tempo to accommodate him, but that's just me.

Hicks
03-19-2012, 02:30 PM
Ugh... Vogel's just too player friendly, I'd say. If he says that Hill is playing well at shooting guard, and then switches him to backup, it's just safe to say he is just intimidated to make the switch.

That's the ONLY possibility that you can come up with? No alternatives?

Magic P
03-19-2012, 02:33 PM
I was hoping PG was going to get the majority of the backup SF minutes.

BringJackBack
03-19-2012, 02:40 PM
That's the ONLY possibility that you can come up with? No alternatives?

Unless if he thinks that Darren is a player who is going to make strides soon when it comes to decision making.

vnzla81
03-19-2012, 02:41 PM
This move also tells me that if DC struggles Hill would be the one finishing the game, good move by Vogel.

rexnom
03-19-2012, 02:42 PM
Let's see what happens. I think taking DC out of the starting lineup is a big move, considering his slump and drop in confidence of late. No need to do that until we've experimented with Barbosa as well. Who knows, maybe Hill and Barbosa will work fantastically together? I'm sure Frank will give Hill some time with the starters at PG and DC some time with Barbosa to figure out if they can work together. He's a smart guy. Let's give him some credit.

trey
03-19-2012, 02:43 PM
Still trying to wrap my mind around the former 6th man for the spurs and the former 6th man for the suns trying to co-exist on the same 2nd unit...

Still think DC is a better candidate to be pushing the tempo to accommodate him, but that's just me.

I was thinking the same thing... a collison/barbosa lineup would be nice to see. Collison is always pushing the ball super fast and he's always the only one down the court when he does it. With barbosa at least he'd have someone running with him.

Magic P
03-19-2012, 02:46 PM
Let me add of course Barbosa is going to pick up our offensive sets pretty quickly when we have a simple offense.

Magic P
03-19-2012, 02:47 PM
I was thinking the same thing... a collison/barbosa lineup would be nice to see. Collison is always pushing the ball super fast and he's always the only one down the court when he does it. With barbosa at least he'd have someone running with him.

Too bad DC has tunnel vision.

Trader Joe
03-19-2012, 02:47 PM
Simply put, this is the low risk, high reward way of finding out if Hill's poor performance at point at the start of the season was due to rust or if he is simply not a point guard. If it works out you can move him into the starting lineup and if it doesn't then not a huge deal because you can just slide him back off the ball and let Barbosa try his hand at the 1, but it doesn't carry the same risk of throwing Hill in as the starting point guard and hoping for the best.

notque
03-19-2012, 02:49 PM
Let me add of course Barbosa is going to pick up our offensive sets pretty quickly when we have a simple offense.

I'm just happy to hear we have an offense.

Pacers24Colts12
03-19-2012, 02:51 PM
Remember in the previous regime when we hated lineup changes so much? Now we cant get DC out of the lineup quick enough.

Nuntius
03-19-2012, 02:53 PM
"He picked up a lot of our basic offensive sets today pretty quickly.

I'd be shocked if he didn't. It's not like we have more than 5 of them.

Edit: That said, I'm sad for AJ. He has played fine. If he could stabilize his shot he would be a good option since he can run a pretty fine offense.

vnzla81
03-19-2012, 02:55 PM
Too bad DC has tunnel vision.

:laugh: yeah I was thinking the same thing, even if Barbosa can run as fast as DC, DC is not going to make the pass.

Hicks
03-19-2012, 02:56 PM
Simply put, this is the low risk, high reward way of finding out if Hill's poor performance at point at the start of the season was due to rust or if he is simply not a point guard.

To a point, but I would argue that you give him a better chance to succeed at point guard if you have him playing with Paul, Danny, David, and Roy instead of Leandro, Dahntay, Tyler, and Lou. Mainly because of Hansbrough and Amundson.

Nuntius
03-19-2012, 03:01 PM
To a point, but I would argue that you give him a better chance to succeed at point guard if you have him playing with Paul, Danny, David, and Roy instead of Leandro, Dahntay, Tyler, and Lou. Mainly because of Hansbrough and Amundson.

I disagree. Lou is actually adept in cutting to the basket. Roy will not do it and West is too slow to do it effectively. If we have any chance of running a correct PnR that's with Lou.

Magic P
03-19-2012, 03:03 PM
:laugh: yeah I was thinking the same thing, even if Barbosa can run as fast as DC, DC is not going to make the pass.

Exactly. It would work better if Barbosa was running the fast break and gave it up to DC not the other way around.

Kstat
03-19-2012, 03:05 PM
Barbosa does not give the ball up. At least not willingly.

Nuntius
03-19-2012, 03:11 PM
Barbosa does not give the ball up. At least not willingly.

That's true. Leandro likes to take it to the rack as much as anyone on this team.

vnzla81
03-19-2012, 03:12 PM
Barbosa does not give the ball up. At least not willingly.

He did in Phoenix when he was the backup point guard, he has floor vision something DC doesn't have.

Sookie
03-19-2012, 03:13 PM
Sucks for AJ. Kind of stupid too, but I won't go off on that tangent. Par for the course for his career. It's too bad he couldn't stabilize his shot. And he didn't exactly make a case for himself last game. (Although he did in our last win..) For his career's sake, it's good to see that he had some teams interested at the deadline. He needs to work on his shooting. Badly.

I'm interested in seeing how two shooting guards in the lineup work. I actually think it's got a better shot at working for Hill next to Barbosa than next to Paul George, just because Barbosa is a better ball handler.

I'll be interested in seeing what they do if it doesn't work.

Hicks
03-19-2012, 03:16 PM
I disagree. Lou is actually adept in cutting to the basket. Roy will not do it and West is too slow to do it effectively. If we have any chance of running a correct PnR that's with Lou.

He can pick and pop with West.

spazzxb
03-19-2012, 03:17 PM
Remember in the previous regime when we hated lineup changes so much? Now we cant get DC out of the lineup quick enough.

The hoard hated everything JOB related, therefore the players alot of the time got a pass(unless they took Mcroberts minutes). People were actually arguing that you couldn't judge the players because everything was the coaches fault.
JOB may not be a great coach, however Josh Mcroberts was never a difference maker either.

When you say we , who are you referring to? This board and/or fan-base does not a have an official collective viewpoint, you need to have your own position.

Back on topic: What has DC been doing to show he deserves to start? This is a serious question because I honestly don't see alot that's good about him recently. Bad defense, barley any assist's and unremarkable scoring is all I am seeing. Is there something I am missing?

Magic P
03-19-2012, 03:18 PM
Maybe Barsosa isn't a willing passer which is debatable but I am just frustrated with seeing DC running a one man fast break, doing that predictable euro hop step then missing the layup or an open man who had a better opportunity to finish the break.

Nuntius
03-19-2012, 03:18 PM
He can pick and pop with West.

DC can do this as well. Actually, he is probably better than GH on this just because he knows how West plays a lot more.

I don't see any of this being appreciated here, however.

vnzla81
03-19-2012, 03:21 PM
DC can do this as well. Actually, he is probably better than GH on this just because he knows how West plays a lot more.

I don't see any of this being appreciated here, however.

Are you watching the same games we are watching? :hmm::hmm:

vnzla81
03-19-2012, 03:22 PM
Sucks for AJ. Kind of stupid too, but I won't go off on that tangent. Par for the course for his career. It's too bad he couldn't stabilize his shot. And he didn't exactly make a case for himself last game. (Although he did in our last win..) For his career's sake, it's good to see that he had some teams interested at the deadline. He needs to work on his shooting. Badly.

I'm interested in seeing how two shooting guards in the lineup work. I actually think it's got a better shot at working for Hill next to Barbosa than next to Paul George, just because Barbosa is a better ball handler.

I'll be interested in seeing what they do if it doesn't work.

And I'm the negative one :lol:

Kstat
03-19-2012, 03:23 PM
He did in Phoenix when he was the backup point guard, he has floor vision something DC doesn't have.

woah woah woah....no.

He was essentially the 3rd guard, but his court vision is zero.

His job in the 7 seconds or less offense was to get a shot up inside of 7 seconds. Which he did quite well. It did not, however, require him to pass the basketball.

Again, if you think DC is a reluctant passer, watch Barbosa play. His career assist average is 2.5, and his career FGA average is 10.1. Meaning, he is four times more likely to shoot the ball than he is to get an assist.

Compare that to DC, who we all agree is a reluctant passer, and that ratio is literally cut in half.

Nuntius
03-19-2012, 03:23 PM
Maybe Barsosa isn't a willing passer which is debatable but I am just frustrated with seeing DC running a one man fast break, doing that predictable euro hop step then missing the layup or an open man who had a better opportunity to finish the break.

1) When DC does that it usually results in a foul. Yes, he miss the open man but given that he can't pass on the break taking it to the rak is a better option.

2) Barbosa on the break is a finisher. He is not a facilitator. He knows how to run the court and can finish at the rim in a very effective manner. However, he is not the one to pass it during a break.

Nuntius
03-19-2012, 03:24 PM
Are you watching the same games we are watching? :hmm::hmm:

Yep. I'm just not biased against any of our players.

Trader Joe
03-19-2012, 03:24 PM
To a point, but I would argue that you give him a better chance to succeed at point guard if you have him playing with Paul, Danny, David, and Roy instead of Leandro, Dahntay, Tyler, and Lou. Mainly because of Hansbrough and Amundson.

If he's actually meant to play PG, who he's playing with shouldn't matter.

Sherlock
03-19-2012, 03:27 PM
AJ is out, obviously.
I think during the course, D. Jones will lose some of his minutes to Barbosa as well.

Let's see. I say it will be a up grade with addition of Barbosa.

vnzla81
03-19-2012, 03:28 PM
woah woah woah....no.

He was essentially the 3rd guard, but his court vision is zero.

His job in the 7 seconds or less offense was to get a shot up inside of 7 seconds. Which he did quite well. It did not, however, require him to pass the basketball.

Again, if you think DC is a reluctant passer, watch Barbosa play. His career assist average is 2.5, and his career FGA average is 10.1. Meaning, he is four times more likely to shoot the ball than he is to get an assist.

Compare that to DC, who we all agree is a reluctant passer, and that ratio is literally cut in half.

True but his job has always been to shoot the ball and score, that doesn't mean that he can't pass the ball in a fast break better than DC, that's what I was talking about.

Magic P
03-19-2012, 03:30 PM
1) When DC does that it usually results in a foul. Yes, he miss the open man but given that he can't pass on the break taking it to the rak is a better option.

2) Barbosa on the break is a finisher. He is not a facilitator. He knows how to run the court and can finish at the rim in a very effective manner. However, he is not the one to pass it during a break.

Good points, I guess that leads to the question who would you rather see running the break DC or Barbosa?

Nuntius
03-19-2012, 03:31 PM
True but his job has always been to shoot the ball and score, that doesn't mean that he can't pass the ball in a fast break better than DC, that's what I was talking about.

We'll never know cause neither of them is going to pass it. Even Inferno has been more likely to pass it during a break :p

pacergod2
03-19-2012, 03:34 PM
That was my first thought about trading for Barbosa over in the other thread, was that Collison and Barbosa have to be put together in that second unit to push the hell out of the tempo. This increases the advantage we have with our depth as it is and it gives us the excuse to move Collison to the second unit where he belongs. I think this was the intention when we first acquired Hill, but we needed a reason to make the change.

Vogel has handled everything this year very well for a rookie coach. He has been the exact opposite of JOB with jerking around lineups too much. There is making adjustments to give our team a better fit and then there is making changes because you are going against your tendencies with the players your GM has given you. Very different scenarios.

Sookie
03-19-2012, 03:35 PM
And I'm the negative one :lol:

I'm old fashioned, I don't think two shooting guards works unless one of them is named Kobe Bryant, Manu Ginobili, Dwayne Wade or of that mold.

The offense in this second unit is obviously going to be about running the ball. The problem is, you can't do that every time down the court, particularly when you are less likely to get a rebound and quick outlet (unless DJ is the one that gets it.)

Nuntius
03-19-2012, 03:35 PM
Good points, I guess that leads to the question who would you rather see running the break DC or Barbosa?

Well, Barbosa is a better finisher because he is stronger. That said, I have no problem with DC on the break.

Danny is the one who is horrible on the break.

AesopRockOn
03-19-2012, 03:38 PM
I'm not sure why you would attribute the change to Vogel. Bird traded for Barbosa. He made the move. Vogel is just plugging him in accordingly. I'm not finding anything to take away other than what we knew once we traded for Barbosa and, I guess, that they'll continue to leave DC in with the starters.

2minutes twoa
03-19-2012, 03:47 PM
I think Vogel wants to see what Hill can do at PG with the second unit before he can move him to the starting unit, by the way I really hope we don't see AJ that much for the rest of the year.

Agreed. Perhaps a bit of a warning shot for DC as well.

BillS
03-19-2012, 03:48 PM
I'm not sure why you would attribute the change to Vogel. Bird traded for Barbosa. He made the move. Vogel is just plugging him in accordingly. I'm not finding anything to take away other than what we knew once we traded for Barbosa and, I guess, that they'll continue to leave DC in with the starters.

So are we back to Vogel being so weak and lilly-livered that he has to play the players Bird tells him to?

Either Vogel is the coach or he isn't. If he's the coach, then he's plugging players in based on what he thinks they can or cannot do, not because there's a Master Plan handed down on stone tablets from Bird's office high atop Mt. BLF.

mattie
03-19-2012, 03:54 PM
DC can do this as well. Actually, he is probably better than GH on this just because he knows how West plays a lot more.

I don't see any of this being appreciated here, however.

Actually no.

Just read here: http://www.indycornrows.com/2012/2/7/2736126/the-pacers-pick-and-roll-and-other-difficult-truths

DC should never ever be in this position. He's just terrible at it. He was worse in 'nawlins.

Nuntius
03-19-2012, 03:59 PM
Actually no.

Just read here: http://www.indycornrows.com/2012/2/7/2736126/the-pacers-pick-and-roll-and-other-difficult-truths

DC should never ever be in this position. He's just terrible at it. He was worse in 'nawlins.

Isn't the pick and pop a different play than the pick and roll? Or the statistics lump the two together?

ECKrueger
03-19-2012, 04:17 PM
I'm not sure why you would attribute the change to Vogel. Bird traded for Barbosa. He made the move. Vogel is just plugging him in accordingly. I'm not finding anything to take away other than what we knew once we traded for Barbosa and, I guess, that they'll continue to leave DC in with the starters.

Cause that's what Wells said?

90'sNBARocked
03-19-2012, 04:18 PM
Yeah, AJ is "rewarded" again for his solid play

Well he will get his shot elsewhere next year

Guess Lance wont even dress now

90'sNBARocked
03-19-2012, 04:23 PM
I dont know if it is fair to judge DC vs Hill as DC will play against the opponents starting PG, while Hill will play the back up. Sounds like apples to oranges

I think Vogel wants to make Hill the starter (rumors since the season started) but doesnt want to be so bold as of yet

The main upgrade I see with Hill starting is not as much for offense but because most PG are blowing by or through DC and Hill would be a much better defender as PG penetration is killing us, becuase the F/C has to slide over and leave his man. Thats why we constantly get beat by open 3 pointers

CJ Jones
03-19-2012, 04:25 PM
DC can do this as well. Actually, he is probably better than GH on this just because he knows how West plays a lot more.

I don't see any of this being appreciated here, however.

To me, it seems Darren's really indecisive in the p&p with West. His passes are late and inaccurate most of the time. I don't know if it's him or the offense that has him confused though. I think his size has a lot to do with it too. He struggles making the pass over or around the defense.

[=Sookie;1401457]I'm old fashioned, I don't think two shooting guards works unless one of them is named Kobe Bryant, Manu Ginobili, Dwayne Wade or of that mold.

The offense in this second unit is obviously going to be about running the ball. The problem is, you can't do that every time down the court, particularly when you are less likely to get a rebound and quick outlet (unless DJ is the one that gets it.)[/QUOTE]

I think people's thought process is that we really only have 1 pg on the roster right now, and he struggles to hit shots consistently enough to stay on the floor. Pointing is great, but if you're not a threat to get to the rim, and you're not knocking down 40% of your shots, then you're a liability offensively no matter how well you run a team.

I don't know it if it'll work or not, but just the fact that Hill is bigger then most backups could help his offensive and defensive game. Going up against bigger players at SG every game has to be tough.

p.s. I really like A.J.'s game. While he shoots a lot, he never takes a bad shot. it's obvious the team likes playing with him more than Lance, but with his inability to get to the rim he needs to hit his jump shots. His shot looks good, and it's always in rhythm. I'm starting to think it's just all in his head.

ilive4sports
03-19-2012, 04:26 PM
Yeah, AJ is "rewarded" again for his solid play

Well he will get his shot elsewhere next year

Guess Lance wont even dress now

Yes AJ had been solid (although i believe we are overstating his play...). But does solid mean he should play in front of Hill and Barbosa? Hell no. Every coach in the league would play Hill/Barbosa over any combo of Price/Hill/Barbosa.

Gold
03-19-2012, 04:27 PM
Too bad DC has tunnel vision.

We could always have Barbosa wear a hoop.

xIndyFan
03-19-2012, 04:30 PM
Barbosa does not give the ball up. At least not willingly.

yeah, he's like that pro-gun bumper sticker: you can have my ball when you pry it from my cold dead hand. :laugh:


Sucks for AJ. Kind of stupid too, but I won't go off on that tangent. Par for the course for his career. It's too bad he couldn't stabilize his shot. And he didn't exactly make a case for himself last game. (Although he did in our last win..) For his career's sake, it's good to see that he had some teams interested at the deadline. He needs to work on his shooting. Badly.

i feel so bad for AJ. he can shoot, i've seen him do it. but he's never gotten over the knee cap injury evidently. at least on his shot. he has sucked mightally the last couple of seasons.


I'm interested in seeing how two shooting guards in the lineup work. I actually think it's got a better shot at working for Hill next to Barbosa than next to Paul George, just because Barbosa is a better ball handler.

I'll be interested in seeing what they do if it doesn't work.

i think this type of hybrid PG/SG thing is something the pacers wanted to look at from the beginning of the season. with lance and hill. but since lance hasn't made the jump yet, they will try it again with barbosa and hill.

pacergod2
03-19-2012, 04:34 PM
You make this move for defensive purposes. There is no question about it and I am beyond frustrated it hasn't happened yet. We reap more benefits playing Hill against starting PGs than we do Collison. Collison as a backup would defend backups mostly. Same with Barbosa. If Barbosa was a starting SG, he would kill his team defensively far more than he helps them on offense. Collison and Barbosa would be going against smaller guards and could use their quickness to their advantage and not get killed by others' size.

I just don't get why Collison is starting. I love the kid. He is a leader. He is smart. He is a solid shooter, but not a single one of those things I just mentioned make a difference when talking about starting versus coming off the bench. Do this because it fits our team more appropriately. Let Hill get comfortable with our starting unit down the stretch. If we do it too late, we just make the decisions harder going into next year, because we didn't know any better.

:mad: <--- Frustrated.

xIndyFan
03-19-2012, 04:41 PM
. . . I just don't get why Collison is starting. I love the kid. He is a leader. He is smart. He is a solid shooter, but not a single one of those things I just mentioned make a difference when talking about starting versus coming off the bench. Do this because it fits our team more appropriately. Let Hill get comfortable with our starting unit down the stretch. If we do it too late, we just make the decisions harder going into next year, because we didn't know any better.

:mad: <--- Frustrated.

jmo, but i think vogel believes he has only 2 PG's on the team. DC and AJ. the other guys are combo guys that can play the point in stretches, but not full time. the pacers tried hill as the back-up PG, but it didn't work. so he's tried AJ, and that hasn't worked. until he finds a legit backup PG that plays well, expect to see lots of DC in the meantime.

Sookie
03-19-2012, 05:58 PM
Yes AJ had been solid (although i believe we are overstating his play...). But does solid mean he should play in front of Hill and Barbosa? Hell no. Every coach in the league would play Hill/Barbosa over any combo of Price/Hill/Barbosa.

His last game was not good. (It was like he got a pep talk from Jimmy..) But quite frankly, he's been an excellent point guard for the last month and a half. His shooting is..terrible..which makes a lot of his performances understated.

If Hill proves me wrong, and he's a better point guard than AJ (not player, point guard), then AJ shouldn't play ahead of him. Same with Barbosa. And If we weren't happy with the way our point guards were performing, (and if you value good point guard play, you wouldn't have an issue with AJ's play the past month and a half, obviously DC is a different animal though) we should have gone out and traded for a new point guard. Not another shooting guard.

The problem is, I don't think either are point guards. And we just took a second unit backcourt that was very good defensively, usually ran a nice offense, and played well together. And put two shooting guards in it. One of which isn't too crazy about passing, and the other scores considerably better when plays are run for him. One of which, isn't so good defensively. The other is, but they're both a little undersized. (It's not like we made our backcourt bigger) I understand trying it out, because if you can get it to work, theoretically that's 20 points off the bench from the backup back court. But this just strikes me as seeing nice pieces and forgetting to consider how they fit together. Because if George Hill is running the offense and trying to set people up, odds are his points are going down. And if neither Barbosa and Hill are good at running the point in the half court (which I expect they aren't) then our production from Tyler and Amundson is likely to go down - the end result being, despite the fact that AJ can't shoot, the second unit scores less, and defends worse.


p.s. I really like A.J.'s game. While he shoots a lot, he never takes a bad shot. it's obvious the team likes playing with him more than Lance, but with his inability to get to the rim he needs to hit his jump shots. His shot looks good, and it's always in rhythm. I'm starting to think it's just all in his head.

I'm not sure what's wrong either. It's probably a head thing. But last year, his shots were all too short, and this year they are mostly too long. I think he's just got to work out the mechanics and practice it. There's probably a lot of "in the head" thing too.

Justin Tyme
03-19-2012, 06:42 PM
His career assist average is 2.5, and his career FGA average is 10.1. Meaning, he is four times more likely to shoot the ball than he is to get an assist.


You just described Ben Gordon, 2.4 & 10.5, and he's being paid 11.6 mil which is 4 mil more than Barbosa.

xIndyFan
03-19-2012, 06:49 PM
You just described Ben Gordon, 2.4 & 10.5, and he's being paid 11.6 mil which is 4 mil more than Barbosa.

it is true that gordon >>> leandro. not $11M more, but much better.

i like gordon, wish he was a pacer. don't like his contract though. glad the piston's have him.

BlueNGold
03-19-2012, 07:46 PM
However this shakes out...and I think Wells' article may have confirmed this...AJ is going to become better acquainted with the bench. Nothing else really matters that much. I suppose I will want George Hill in the game so we have a better chance of winning it....but I'm fine with him coming off the bench notwithstanding the fact I think he should be the starter. ...and DC and Barbosa should play together on the 2nd unit. AJ Price, otoh, should get Pendergraph minutes.

TheDavisBrothers
03-19-2012, 08:26 PM
He can pick and pop with West.

I know this was West's forte, but this year he's been terrible in the pick and pop. His jump shot has been off the whole year and now he is hesitant to even shot it at all. Majority of his points have come from him driving in the lane.


Sucks for AJ. Kind of stupid too, but I won't go off on that tangent. Par for the course for his career. It's too bad he couldn't stabilize his shot. And he didn't exactly make a case for himself last game. (Although he did in our last win..) For his career's sake, it's good to see that he had some teams interested at the deadline. He needs to work on his shooting. Badly.

I'm interested in seeing how two shooting guards in the lineup work. I actually think it's got a better shot at working for Hill next to Barbosa than next to Paul George, just because Barbosa is a better ball handler.

I'll be interested in seeing what they do if it doesn't work.

While I do think AJ is good at running the point, probably the best on the team as a matter of fact, the fact that he is shooting like 33% from the field is a deal breaker.
I think the thought behind Hill and Barbosa is that 2 combo guards together can, in a sense, equal 1 PG

gummy
03-19-2012, 08:41 PM
I think Vogel wants to see what Hill can do at PG with the second unit before he can move him to the starting unit

Yeah, that was my thinking as well. Not a bad idea, really. Give it somewhere between 4-8 games and if DC hasn't gotten back to very early season DC (and GH hasn't played himself out of starting contention at the PG spot) we'll probably see Hill in the starting line-up.

Nuntius
03-19-2012, 08:48 PM
I think the thought behind Hill and Barbosa is that 2 combo guards together can, in a sense, equal 1 PG

In the same sense, can 2 PFs together equal 1 C? :p

TheDavisBrothers
03-19-2012, 08:55 PM
In the same sense, can 2 PFs together equal 1 C? :p

No it would be 2 PF/C together equal 1 C, just like it's 2 PG/SG together equal 1 PG...

Nuntius
03-19-2012, 08:57 PM
No it would be 2 PF/C together equal 1 C, just like it's 2 PG/SG together equal 1 PG...

Yeah, this makes sense.

Actually, that's how the Bucks are getting along after the Bogut injury (and with his trade now they'll continue to do so). Udoh, Leuer, Ilyasova, Gooden, Sanders. None of those is a natural 5. Ok, Sanders may be but he has a lot of 4 traits as well :p

Hibbert
03-19-2012, 09:23 PM
Believe it or not, advanced statistic wise, on offense our weakest position on the floor is SG with our strongest being C. And on defense our weakest link is the PF spot with our strongest being a tie between C and PG. Please note this includes the starters and the bench players as well. If you have some free time I suggest you go check out this site and check out all the different areas. http://www.82games.com/1112/1112IND1.HTM

CableKC
03-19-2012, 09:49 PM
This move also tells me that if DC struggles Hill would be the one finishing the game, good move by Vogel.
Doesn't GH already finish games?

I know that he has at least finished one of the games recently...

Pacemaker
03-19-2012, 09:54 PM
Let me add of course Barbosa is going to pick up our offensive sets pretty quickly when we have a simple offense.

In all honesty I think our playbook sucks.:(

jeffg-body
03-19-2012, 11:25 PM
I am very interested in seeing what a Hill/Barbosa backcourt can work and function. Being on the second unit out there together may make the game a bit more exciting. I can see some pretty wild fast breaks after missed shots from the other team. Those two guys can fly down the court. You never know, it might work out. I would also like to see them in with PG at the 3 spot. Could you imagine seeing a fast break going down with PG getting wide open threes or lobs for dunks. I want to see if he is ready to defend other teams SF and if he is strong enough to handle it consistently. I don't think he would have issues with most SF's.

Nuntius
03-19-2012, 11:44 PM
Believe it or not, advanced statistic wise, on offense our weakest position on the floor is SG with our strongest being C. And on defense our weakest link is the PF spot with our strongest being a tie between C and PG. Please note this includes the starters and the bench players as well. If you have some free time I suggest you go check out this site and check out all the different areas. http://www.82games.com/1112/1112IND1.HTM

I have no trouble believing this. Both Roy and Lou are solid most nights. West and Tyler tend to struggle on defense. DC is not as bad defensively as people make him out to be and Hill with AJ have been good defensively. Offensively, PG used to disappear at times and was really on and off (he is still great, of course) while Lance does not provide a lot of things either. Hill has been good but somewhat inconsistent.

So, I feel that it makes sense.


In all honesty I think our playbook sucks.:(

To be honest, I'm under this impression as well.

Eleazar
03-19-2012, 11:56 PM
I'd be shocked if he didn't. It's not like we have more than 5 of them.

Edit: That said, I'm sad for AJ. He has played fine. If he could stabilize his shot he would be a good option since he can run a pretty fine offense.

If AJ was consistent with his shot there would be no argument that he is better than Collison.

Nuntius
03-20-2012, 12:02 AM
If AJ was consistent with his shot there would be no argument that he is better than Collison.

I don't know if AJ is better than Collison in running an offense.

AJ had the advantage to play with the second unit. Yes, that's an advantage in this case, imo. The second unit moves the ball more. The guys on the second unit can cut to the basket (DJ, Lou). They can also run a break (again, DJ and Lou). In general, our second unit moves without the ball.

Our starting line-up does not move without the ball. We're incredibly stagnant. I cannot attribute this fully to DC.

mattie
03-20-2012, 12:11 AM
Isn't the pick and pop a different play than the pick and roll? Or the statistics lump the two together?

I hope not. Because they're the same play. If you run the pick n roll correctly, the one setting the pick should take what the defense gives them, whether that is roll, or the open jump shot.

It's a relatively new thing to act as if the pick n pop is some how a different play. It's not. It's the PnR.

Nuntius
03-20-2012, 12:15 AM
I hope not. Because they're the same play. If you run the pick n roll correctly, the one setting the pick should take what the defense gives them, whether that is roll, or the open jump shot.

It's a relatively new thing to act as if the pick n pop is some how a different play. It's not. It's the PnR.

Well, as a big man (well, an undersized 4 but whatever) I always considered it a different play :-p

Eleazar
03-20-2012, 12:48 AM
Well, as a big man (well, an undersized 4 but whatever) I always considered it a different play :-p

Well, as a used to be "big man" I never considered them different plays, just different options. To be honest I had never heard of the pick and pop referred to as a separate play until I was on this board. Ultimately though we would just be arguing meaningless semantics.

So I'm not sure why I even wrote this, but since I did I might as well not waste my time.

AesopRockOn
03-20-2012, 01:04 AM
So are we back to Vogel being so weak and lilly-livered that he has to play the players Bird tells him to?

Either Vogel is the coach or he isn't. If he's the coach, then he's plugging players in based on what he thinks they can or cannot do, not because there's a Master Plan handed down on stone tablets from Bird's office high atop Mt. BLF.

:confused:

My post wasn't as much a slight against Vogel as it was confusion over the relevance of the piece. It'd be like the headline, "Skiles to start Monta Ellis as soon as he becomes available." No ****! We got an upgrade at backup guard, so that guy takes the spot from the next guy on the depth chart, Price.

Vogel is the coach of the roster presented to him; the roster got an upgrade. The upgrade is inserted into the relevant spot. IOW, there is no story. Btw, I've never seen Bird sporting a beard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beard_Liberation_Front). :D


Cause that's what Wells said?

See the above example. Wells needs to go to print and he needs page views. Doesn't mean anything actually happened.

Sookie
03-20-2012, 02:03 PM
Doesn't GH already finish games?

I know that he has at least finished one of the games recently...

He's finished the game a few times in place of Paul George, not in place of DC. (AJ has a few times in place of DC)

BTW: I don't think this is Vogel being told what to do. I do think Bird is interested in seeing a bigger combo/scoring guard at. PG, and seeing what Barbosa and Hill look together. But it was always obvious what was going to happen.

You can't sit Hill, and you can't sit Barbosa, as he's probably now our second best bench player. But the issue being how the pieces fit, rather than individually. (Although to be honest, the way people have been playing lately, I'd actually get really radical with the lineups. )

AJ's better than DC at pretty much everything point guard related (and defense), and possibly considerably so. But his shot has been so off that I was even hesitant to say "start him." I don't think the second unit was an advantage to play on as a point guard, I think it had more player movement/ball movement because Price made it so. The biggest evidence being that when he'd go all Jimmy ball on us, the player movement and ball movement stopped. He's got a big flaw right now, and I'm sure it's odd for him because I don't know that shooting has ever been his flaw up until these past two seasons. (Even after his first knee injury, he couldn't do much..but he could shoot.) He needs to work on that. And it becomes a liability on the floor. That doesn't make the Hill/Barbosa backcourt a good idea.

CableKC
03-20-2012, 02:09 PM
He's finished the game a few times in place of Paul George, not in place of DC. (AJ has a few times in place of DC)

BTW: I don't think this is Vogel being told what to do. I do think Bird is interested in seeing a bigger combo/scoring guard at. PG, and seeing what Barbosa and Hill look together. But it was always obvious what was going to happen.

You can't sit Hill, and you can't sit Barbosa, as he's probably now our second best bench player. But the issue being how the pieces fit, rather than individually. (Although to be honest, the way people have been playing lately, I'd actually get really radical with the lineups. )
Yeah, I agree. We have a new piece that has to be fit into the perplexing puzzle that is the Pacers roster. I wouldn't be surprised if we continue to see mixing and matching of the PG/SG/SF rotation until Vogel figures out what is the best combination. Didn't it take a period of time after GH got back until Vogel finally settled on the AJ/GH/Inferno 2nd unit rotation?

Either way, the question becomes who will be included in the rotation in the 2nd unit....AJ or Inferno....thus pushing GH to the backup PG spot...or pushing GH or Barbosa to the SF spot.

naptownmenace
03-20-2012, 02:21 PM
Yeah, AJ is "rewarded" again for his solid play

Well he will get his shot elsewhere next year

Guess Lance wont even dress now

I'm fine with each of those 3 points. AJ hasn't defended or shot the ball well. He's actually become a worse shooter than he was last year. Backup PGs like AJ are a plenty. He's on the level of players like Jeremy Pargo, Smush Parker, and Tony Douglas.

Lance isn't ready. Fred Jones picked up the NBA game and showed more promise than Lance at the same point in his career and even he eventually found his way out of the NBA. I think Lance has the same future.

Ratking
03-20-2012, 03:02 PM
Im excited to see if Barbosa has more PG chops than he has displayed with the Suns and Toronto. Playing alongside Nash and Calderon has liberated him from those duties in the past, playing mostly off-ball. With his penetration and handling, he could prove to be one of the better players on our roster in terms of getting teammates open shots. With our lack of a true PG, it would be great if he tried to fill that role for us. Wouldn't be too hard to be our new team assist leader if he can consistently draw a double-team when he drives and get the ball to West or Hibbert.

Hicks
03-20-2012, 03:20 PM
Vogel was praising Barbosa's passing on a video on Pacers.com I saw earlier today.

Sparhawk
03-20-2012, 03:24 PM
I'm fine with each of those 3 points. AJ hasn't defended or shot the ball well. He's actually become a worse shooter than he was last year. Backup PGs like AJ are a plenty. He's on the level of players like Jeremy Pargo, Smush Parker, and Tony Douglas.

Lance isn't ready. Fred Jones picked up the NBA game and showed more promise than Lance at the same point in his career and even he eventually found his way out of the NBA. I think Lance has the same future.

While I think AJ has defended ok, he shoots worse than Lance. And this guy is supposed to be able to shoot. I'm happy that AJ won't be playing now. It's not like he'll be on the team next year.

I do wish Lance would get some minutes or get sent to the DLeague, but we all know that isn't going to happen.

Really looking forward to seeing how Hill adjusts to the point position and Barbosa in action. Scoring with the second unit should be a lot more consistent now.

CJ Jones
03-20-2012, 03:54 PM
I'm fine with each of those 3 points. AJ hasn't defended or shot the ball well. He's actually become a worse shooter than he was last year. Backup PGs like AJ are a plenty. He's on the level of players like Jeremy Pargo, Smush Parker, and Tony Douglas.

Lance isn't ready. Fred Jones picked up the NBA game and showed more promise than Lance at the same point in his career and even he eventually found his way out of the NBA. I think Lance has the same future.

This isn't really fair to Lance. We should give him more then a half season worth of games before we decide whether he has a future in the league or not.

xIndyFan
03-20-2012, 04:03 PM
This isn't really fair to Lance. We should give him more then a half season worth of games before we decide whether he has a future in the league or not.

i agree, the fred jones comparison is a poor one, imo. fred was an athlete with average skills and one hand. plus fred was undersized for his position.

lance is big for his position, not a great athlete and skilled. the things he needs are different from those fred needed.