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Peck
03-18-2012, 02:38 AM
I’ve re-written this thing 3 times already and I’m not doing it again. I have tried my best to mask any form of disgust or disappointment in my previous drafts and each time I deleted them because to me it was just fake and artificial.

I know that some of you hate any form of negative or at the very least overly negative postings, with that in mind I kept editing myself.

I can’t do it.

I will write this for myself if nobody else and this may be the last one I do for awhile because I do not want to add to the overly negative nature of the board.

But how the hell can anyone be anything but negative after the month that we have had. Remember guys it’s not just a game, it’s not just a back to back loss of a home & home series. This has been going on for over a month now. 11 wins & 12 losses if you go back to February 1 with six of those wins coming against the bottom of the NBA and another one against a team that three days later fired their coach and blew up their team (in other words they were in collapse as well). But if you just go back a month we have had one good win, ONE. The Philly win was a good victory and that can’t be taken away.

But other than that we have been falling faster than the Hindenburg.

To make matters worse tonight after the game I get home to flip on the TV to see NBAtv making fun of both the Pacers (thanks to the way overblown reaction to Danny’s very innocuous statement) and the city of Indianapolis or as they were calling it Lindianapolis.

I have no real idea what is going on here. Is it the defense? Is it the offense? The answer is yes to both.

I know everybody is ready to hang Darren Collison and he sure deserves a lot of what he is getting but let’s not look past the fact that for the first time that I can remember our power forwards forced Frank Vogel to do something that he hasn’t had to do before. He went small for an extended period of time. This was because David “I can’t rotate laterally without the aid of a hoveround” West nor Tyler “who needs a vertical when you can flail” Hansbrough brought their absolute A games to play tonight.

I mean I can understand Tyson Chandler affecting shots and controlling the painted area. He is an athletic big with quick hands and big hops, but for Gods sake did we have to make Jarred Jeffries look like Dwight Howard? We could not go inside on them with anyone other than Roy & on a couple of occasions Danny (when he wasn’t busy trying to miss a jumper). But at the very least West grabbed a few boards in the game but Tyler grabbed a whopping one rebound (yes you read that right 1). So other than Dahntay Jones who grabbed zero in his almost 9 min. of play & Mike Bibby who also grabbed one Tyler was outrebounded by every single member of both the Pacers & Knicks.

Smash mouth basketball indeed.

Our defense has got to change right now, if we do nothing else at our next practice we need to make it so that we quit having our 7’2” center rotate off of his man during the pick and roll and attempt to force the dribbler away from the basket leaving him 18-20’ away from the rim while either his man or another cutter makes a mad dash at the rim for the usual and customary and 1 play. This by the way is not Roy’s fault, there may be a hand full of legitimate big men who could rotate back that fast & sadly Chandler is one of them. I would much rather give up an open 18’ jumper than have the layup line that goes on during games. This happens time and time again.

Yes I know other players are supposed to rotate over to help, well guess what when they do then the cutter just tosses it to the now wide open player leaving our help defender scrambling back to him with arms flailing as he watches the mostly uncontested three point shot go flying up.

Even when these shots miss the likely hood that the offensive team gets the rebound is now becoming more and more likely as once again we have been outrebounded.

I am sick to death of reading about how this is ok, this is what we expected in the pre-season and that we all knew we weren’t as good as Chicago, Miami or Oklahoma City. I don’t even know what that last part is supposed to mean because right now if you ask me we are not only not as good as them but I now put us below Orlando, Atlanta & well frankly the Mike Woodson led N.Y. Knicks.

This was my great fear about D’Antoni leaving, I wanted him to be their coach for life because he is horrible. He is just Jim O’Brien with the benefit of having Steve Nash run his sets for him in Phoenix. N.Y. has a lot of talent and now that they have a coach who will actually demand defense & not just throw up slop (why does this sound familiar) they will start winning.

Yes we happened to catch them on a high. If we were a good team that wouldn’t matter, they might have caught us once at home but there is no way a good team would lose back to back games like this.

But right now, I’m sorry but we are just not a good team.

Also I know this will make a lot of you mad as well but I’m saying it anyway. I don’t want to hear that the schedule is going to get easier. That is absolute B.S. that we have to get to playing weak teams just so we can get some wins. Again good teams will get to the rough part of a schedule and sure they will struggle but for the most part they will not collapse.

We have collapsed when it comes to playing teams with decent records (other than that very good win vs. Philly).

I am going to blame most of this on players but sorry Frank has to take his lumps here as well. I like a rotation as well as the next guy, getting guys regular min. and knowing that they will come in and out at certain intervals of the game makes for a good routine and in a compressed season will help with the legs.

Now having said that I want to say that there is a time and a place to forget about the egg timer as well. Tonight Paul George in the first quarter was just slamming it to the Knicks, they had no answer for him and he was keeping us in the game scoring 10 points. Then the egg timer went off and up jumps Tyler. Ok, good sign George Hill is not up so he must be going to let him play on, one play later in check George for Paul and then Paul proceeds to sit until almost 20 min. of real time (not game time) has elapsed. Paul now comes in and is cold and does not score again until 6:38 mark in the 3rd quarter.

You do not take out a young athletic player who is on fire unless they are in foul trouble or are winded and neither was the case here. He killed any momentum that he had going on and it took Paul a quarter and a half to recover.

The Knicks did employ the sure fire guaranteed way to stop the Pacers, they played a 2-3 zone. Each time the Pacers face this it is worse than the last time they faced it. They approach it as though it were voodoo and they are afraid of getting bad mojo. Of course it doesn’t help that we don’t have anyone who can hit a three point shot on a consistent basis so that is a problem. But how about anybody hitting a shot, that would help.

I’m hoping Barbosa will help here.

Overall I would have to say this has been a very disappointing weekend of Pacers basketball & once again they had a big crowd in the house and once again they left the sold out crowd wondering why anyone would actually pay to come see them play. Most of the people there tonight were Lin fans & that is what makes it worse, they weren’t all die hard Knick fans. So the Pacers had a chance to get some of these fans if they would have played well, but as is almost always the case when they have a big crowd on hand they bring a knife to a gun fight.

Let’s pretend to be objective here during our player evaluations, which we will do in grade format.

Roy Hibbert: A Was embarrassed in N.Y. City last night and to his credit he did almost everything he could do to make us at least be competitive for awhile. He rebounded, he scored in the post & he drew fouls and hit his shots. I don’t know if there was much else he could do to help the team. I am proud of him for standing up to the challenge. He made Chandler just human tonight.

Paul George: A- He tried, he would have had a better game if he wasn’t inexplicably held out for half of the second quarter. He just has to get better handles and not throw some silly passes but since the all-star break he has turned it up and is really becoming the player we all think he can be.

Danny Granger: C- This pretty much will tell you how the night went for him. Pre-game huddle he stopped Jeff Pendegraph from doing his usual fire up the team speech. Danny instead is in the huddle and is giving an impassioned speech. Then again just before tip he gathers all of the starters around him and again is giving what looks like a fiery win one for the Gipper speech. Then N.Y. wins the tip but blows a layup and the Pacers get the ball down court quick to Danny on the baseline who lines up and fires a wide open jump shot. I’d love to tell you that it went in to give the club the lead but no he short arms the shot and misses so bad that it hits the underside of the outside of the rim and N.Y. recovers gets it down court only to have Carmelo hit a three point shot with Danny running at him flailing his arms. It was that kind of night. He did do some nice post up work for awhile and he did block a shot. But other than that you really would hope for a better game from your leader.

David West: D- Horrid, soft, no hops, lethargic. Am I leaving out any other adjectives to describe how putrid his game was? Oh yea, slow.

Darren Collison: D- When Jeremy Lin decided in the 4th quarter to just start driving and shooting Darren provided him with a clear path to do so, he wouldn’t want to get in his way or anything. Darren did get some rebounds but other than that? Well let’s say there was this one time that he dribbled the ball right off of his foot out of bounds, this of course led to another N.Y. score. His dribbling is getting worse and that is the part that is just mystifying to me, I knew he wasn’t a great passer but I had no idea that he was this lousy of a ball handler. But it was his defense that was just the death of us and is on most nights. The only time we made any impact on Lin at all in the 4th quarter was when we switched over and put Hill on him. By then it was all over.

Tyler Hansbrough: F Sorry I don’t care if you flailed your way for 5 points, one rebound as a power forward is beyond pathetic. I feel like those guys from office space when I want to ask him “what is it you say you do here”? Because on nights like tonight I have no idea. No defense, no rebounding, no hustle plays. I just have no honest clue as to what he does out there when he isn’t scoring.

George Hill: C- The only thing saving him from an F is the fact that he did not embarrass himself on defense. He didn’t set the world on fire from the defensive end either but at least he made effort and did actually slow Lin down when he finally was put on him.

Lou Amundson: C Again why this guy sits in games like this when Tyler plays like this is beyond me. I would have loved to put him in next to Roy and see what he could do at the four spot for awhile. Foul magnet but it’s because he was one of the few Pacers stepping up to defend all night long.

A.J. Price: F His 9 min and 2 seconds on the floor was 9 min. to long. Other nights when he is content to run the offense he can be a good player and a valuable defender. Tonight he was interested in getting his own shots up and was not running any form of offense other than how long can A.J. dribble before he shoots. I’m not kidding, I would much rather have Lance than this version of A.J.

Dahntay Jones: C- Hit the two shots he took but did not defend with the normal vigor that we are used to with him. I will say this, he was not to happy to be yanked quickly in the second half.

I don’t even know what to say anymore. I only look forward to a break in the schedule just because I would like to see us win again, but I am not at all happy that this is what it has come to. This is the only way we can win is by playing the dregs of the NBA. I really fear that Blake Griffin will score 50 points on our power forwards on Tuesday.

I have already decided that the two primary concerns in this off season & yes I am now already starting to be concerned with the off season, is we have to get a new point guard and we have to get an athletic big to take over at the four spot. I doubt seriously we get that but I would take a player who could back up the four and five till West leaves as a free agent.

I apologize to any and all of you who do not like negative posts, I honestly tried not to but like I said it just was fake and not me.

http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/Demotivational/3/demotivational-posters-rock-bottom.jpg

Naptown_Seth
03-18-2012, 02:53 AM
Peck, this IS the break in the schedule.

2 games like this could be a fluke, a weird matchup, a boost from a coaching change or whatever anomaly you want to assign it to.

But frankly these 2 games made me hate rooting for this team. Now it makes the CHI, ATL and ORL losses look suspicious again and casts doubt on the "well it was a tough spot" view.

Maybe I was only half-right, maybe Philly stinks but maybe so do the Pacers.



I promoted the easy schedule as a sign of a big run of wins but how could anyone seriously bet on the Pacers IN MIL, for example. At this point a whole bunch of obvious wins just went in the toilet. It looks more like .500 against bad teams in favorable situations is what we have to hope for which really isn't an improvement over last year given the 2 (and now 3) additions.

Naptown_Seth
03-18-2012, 03:09 AM
By the way, you know what the problem really is?

The Pacers have been "solved". Their offense 100% chokes at the first sign of an aggressive double team. The Knicks badly overpursue and pull themselves into bad position, but the Pacers let them do it. Many teams have been going with hard doubles and traps the last few weeks and the Pacers appear to have no clue how to react.

This isn't just one guy either. DC and Roy really freak out, but Danny lets himself get trapped on the baseline and half of West's scores are just him forcing it and stepping awkwardly (but impressively) though a double.

Rotation and ball movement out of traps or doubles is slow and easy for the defense to react to. Rather than setting up the defense with fakes and anticipation moves that are countering the defense before it can even get to the ball, the Pacers let these traps just force them way out of position and into over the top slow lob passes and nasty cross-court skips that require a leap to catch at all.

Ratking
03-18-2012, 03:12 AM
I'm not too worried. Knicks seem to be a different level of team post-Dantoni . They are pretty stacked and now seem to be playing really inspired ball. I'd actually love to see them at the 7th or 8th seed to give Miami or Chicago trouble. We need to have realistic expectations. The Knicks have more talent at every position, aside from sg.

CableKC
03-18-2012, 03:28 AM
One thing that I notice a lot of is that the entire Team has a tendency to dribble the air out of the ball....look for someone to pass it to.....then resets to the Point Guard on the floor...or whoever is open...with less then a few seconds left in the shot clock...thus forcing that Player to take a bad shot with the clock running down. Am I the only one that notices this?

I don't know if it's just a matter of poor clock management, no real play in mind, part of the overall gameplan...or just an inability to do something on the offensive end.....but despite the somewhat anemic ball movement among the Players....it's not really enough ball movement to create scoring opportunities...because they hold the ball so long it allows the other Team to reset their defense. It's like they are playing NBA 2k12 and trying to find some opening in the defense...but taking forever to find the opening.

I don't know how many times that we have taking really ill-advised and poor shots with a few seconds left in the shot clock.

PGisthefuture
03-18-2012, 03:32 AM
All good points. Our problem is that our offense is just too damn simple. I know Vogel hasn't had a full training camp yet and what not, but you would think he would be able to make tweaks here and there to complicate our offense more as the season goes on. Also, I think DC and Roy's struggling are in part due to Vogel's system. As mentioned, Roy always stays up to help on a pick and roll and leaves his man along with the lane wide open which causes for easy offense for the opposing team. As for DC the numbers show that he was better in New Orleans and that was because it was more of a point guard system.

I'm also confused with the fact that some nights (like against Philly) we look like we should and are hitting shots along with playing good defense and other nights we can't hit the ocean with a rock and we allow so many easy buckets. This team is so up and down and I don't know if age is a reasonable excuse anymore. I really hope Barbosa can help by hitting shots and showing some of what he showed in Pheonix when they were contenders. I feel bad he had to come here and watch his new team get blown out twice by a sub .500 team.

I too have started thinking about this off-season and have come to a few conclusions.... A) We need an upgrade at the point guard. I know it's a topic that is always discussed on here and it is becoming more and more noticeable. In Vogel's system there must be a guy like Nash who can facilitate the offense. B) We need an athletic power forward who can block shots. It sounds all too familiar because that is what we needed coming into the season and it is starting to show that we still do. I love David West, but he is simply too slow to guard the many athletic 4's he is faced with most nights. I hope we can get such a guy in the draft which is why I'm glad we kept our first round pick. With Larry running the show I don't honestly know how things will be this summer. I think he has a lot of false hope that this team will eventually pull it together, but there are still major needs and I hope he sees them.

I am having strong doubts about our game against the Clippers on Tuesday and I hope I'm wrong.

EDIT: I am really frustrated by the fact that Vogel takes PG out at the same time every game. He always makes him sit for an extended period of time too. He had it going tonight and honestly I could have seen a different outcome if he had stayed in the majority of the game. Vogel can't do what O'Brien did and sit such a young player with great potential on the bench for so long. He needs to learn to leave the guy with the hot hand in the game.

Brad8888
03-18-2012, 03:38 AM
By the way, you know what the problem really is?

The Pacers have been "solved". Their offense 100% chokes at the first sign of an aggressive double team. The Knicks badly overpursue and pull themselves into bad position, but the Pacers let them do it. Many teams have been going with hard doubles and traps the last few weeks and the Pacers appear to have no clue how to react.

This isn't just one guy either. DC and Roy really freak out, but Danny lets himself get trapped on the baseline and half of West's scores are just him forcing it and stepping awkwardly (but impressively) though a double.

Rotation and ball movement out of traps or doubles is slow and easy for the defense to react to. Rather than setting up the defense with fakes and anticipation moves that are countering the defense before it can even get to the ball, the Pacers let these traps just force them way out of position and into over the top slow lob passes and nasty cross-court skips that require a leap to catch at all.

Young team, little to no practice time to put in sets, nobody who knows how to pass and move without the ball, everybody trying to create for themselves. That works when your team has the superior athleticism which the Pacers do against a good number of teams. Against teams that have better records and understand defense, the Pacers cannot get away with this and generally get blown away unless the shots are falling.

I miss Dunleavy and McRoberts and their basketball IQ and the fundamentals they learned from Coach K which they continued to apply during their time here. They were far more important to the franchise than most give them credit for. I could not care less that McRoberts has not played much for the Lakers, and I honestly have no clue how Dunleavy has been playing for the Bucks, or if he even has been. I just know that both were undervalued here, and their contributions on both ends of the floor are becoming more obvious as this season is progressing.

PGisthefuture
03-18-2012, 03:39 AM
I'm not too worried. Knicks seem to be a different level of team post-Dantoni . They are pretty stacked and now seem to be playing really inspired ball. I'd actually love to see them at the 7th or 8th seed to give Miami or Chicago trouble. We need to have realistic expectations. The Knicks have more talent at every position, aside from sg.

I think the Knicks will cool down eventually. Once they play a team like Miami, Chicago, or OKC they will get hit with reality. After a game like that they should lose momentum. I am worried though I want to wait to see how we play them in April to judge whether I would want to face them in the playoffs. Even then I don't think we stand much of a chance, it might be an interesting series, but we would probably lose.

PGisthefuture
03-18-2012, 03:46 AM
Young team, little to no practice time to put in sets, nobody who knows how to pass and move without the ball, everybody trying to create for themselves. That works when your team has the superior athleticism which the Pacers do against a good number of teams. Against teams that have better records and understand defense, the Pacers cannot get away with this and generally get blown away unless the shots are falling.

I miss Dunleavy and McRoberts and their basketball IQ and the fundamentals they learned from Coach K which they continued to apply during their time here. They were far more important to the franchise than most give them credit for. I could not care less that McRoberts has not played much for the Lakers, and I honestly have no clue how Dunleavy has been playing for the Bucks, or if he even has been. I just know that both were undervalued here, and their contributions on both ends of the floor are becoming more obvious as this season is progressing.

Come to think of it I miss that from Dunleavy as well. Never thought I would say that... He has been putting up pretty solid numbers for the Bucks too. I think maybe it was a mistake to let him go, we should have signed him for a cheap deal during the off-season.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1708/mike-dunleavy

AesopRockOn
03-18-2012, 04:58 AM
Their offense 100% chokes at the first sign of an aggressive double team.

Pretty much. Even if you see some good ball movement that ends with a corner three or someone getting fouled on his way to a layup, it's because of poor help defense from our opponents. If any sort of hard double comes, it's either Danny being unable to dribble the ball, DC being too short or poor-sighted to get it out of the double (and having to call a TO), Roy forcing something, or any number of other boneheaded, rushed executions. I'm not sure at this point to just not believe Vogel when he says that they have been drilling the offense for three straight practices or to understand that he doesn't himself understand what that means.

Either way, this team needs to go back to what got it that nice start to begin the season: defense. It has really trailed off since February and March began. We are still tenth in defensive efficiency, though I believe we were fourth or fifth after the first month or so. We're not going to get much (or any at all) better on offense. We need to focus up and get back to helping strong, deflecting penetration, and stopping open looks. We will still have to foul, something Pacers teams have done for years now.

What really needs to step up is the ****ing transition defense. Some said that DC had increased his aggressiveness in these defensive situations in the beginning of the year. Fine. But he cannot come close to doing it by himself. And if he needs to foul someone to prevent a hoop, suffice it to say that if the player he is fouling is even kind of strong, he stands no chance. The Pacers need to get back on defense. The Knicks absolutely killed us these past two games with fast breaks off turnovers (+10 in the first game, +3 in this one).

There's no other way to say it, the Pacers need to recommit to being a top defensive team. Everyone. Right now.

McKeyFan
03-18-2012, 08:18 AM
One thing that I notice a lot of is that the entire Team has a tendency to dribble the air out of the ball....look for someone to pass it to.....then resets to the Point Guard on the floor...or whoever is open...with less then a few seconds left in the shot clock...thus forcing that Player to take a bad shot with the clock running down. Am I the only one that notices this?


I posted this over a year ago:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=62167&highlight=Collison

Collison

1. Good scorer (when he's on)
2. Not a good distributor
3. Not a good defender

When your point guard is a bad distributor, your team will take bad shots with the clock expiring and be last in the league in assists.

D-BONE
03-18-2012, 09:27 AM
Peck, I don't know how somebody couldn't be negative, or at least concerned if you look at the last month.

Some won't like to hear this, but I'm starting to question the D West pickup/expenditure. The only hope I'm holding out is year two the knee will be physically better and his play along with it.

Otherwise, it turns out we get a mediocre, athletically challenged four for 10 million per. Not really what we needed at the position. Lately he's not bringing much more than Tyler might in the same minutes. Obviously, we still have not addressed the gaping hole of a truly athletic 4/5 type guy we've all been on here clamoring for for going on two years.

doctor-h
03-18-2012, 09:27 AM
As usual great post Peck. I don't no why you are so apologetic for speaking the truth. That is not a negative. If people continue to turn a blind eye and think things are going to change when nothing is done to create change, that is a negative.

The same problems this team has now are the same problems it had entering the season. Absolutely undeniable terrible point guard play, a strong PF who can defend and rebound, not necessarily score a bunch. We don't need him to score alot. It is very weak mentally and alot of nights they do not play with energy and effort. They have never been a smashmouth team, they don't even know what that means.

I am so tired of hearing Vogel in his post game pressers saying we are a very good team and if we play well we can beat anybody. Good teams adjust when things don't go well. They tweak lineups, change schemes a little and yes sometimes light a fire under someone's ***. You can't be mister nice guy and try never to hurt somebody's feelings and expect that to get the job done. Vogel preaches we are smashmouth, maybe the coach needs to be a little smashmouth himself.

I say start Hill. At least we will have someone in that position that defends. Why not give Lou a chance at PF. Stop playing him out of position. He will give you energy, athleticism and defense every night. The West and Hibbert combo is way to slow. Hansbrough has spent most of his time complaining to the officials and being very ineffective.

I think Barbosa will give us some punch, but he is another guard in the line of what we already have. Score first and when your scoring everything is OK, but when you are not, you have to be able to do something else. I am not sure he will.

Finally I would like to hear the front office stop preaching we are building the deepest team we can build. If you look at the top teams, they win with stars. They don't depend on the bench to win games, they depend on them to contribute.

doctor-h
03-18-2012, 09:33 AM
Pretty much. Even if you see some good ball movement that ends with a corner three or someone getting fouled on his way to a layup, it's because of poor help defense from our opponents. If any sort of hard double comes, it's either Danny being unable to dribble the ball, DC being too short or poor-sighted to get it out of the double (and having to call a TO), Roy forcing something, or any number of other boneheaded, rushed executions. I'm not sure at this point to just not believe Vogel when he says that they have been drilling the offense for three straight practices or to understand that he doesn't himself understand what that means.

Either way, this team needs to go back to what got it that nice start to begin the season: defense. It has really trailed off since February and March began. We are still tenth in defensive efficiency, though I believe we were fourth or fifth after the first month or so. We're not going to get much (or any at all) better on offense. We need to focus up and get back to helping strong, deflecting penetration, and stopping open looks. We will still have to foul, something Pacers teams have done for years now.

What really needs to step up is the ****ing transition defense. Some said that DC had increased his aggressiveness in these defensive situations in the beginning of the year. Fine. But he cannot come close to doing it by himself. And if he needs to foul someone to prevent a hoop, suffice it to say that if the player he is fouling is even kind of strong, he stands no chance. The Pacers need to get back on defense. The Knicks absolutely killed us these past two games with fast breaks off turnovers (+10 in the first game, +3 in this one).

There's no other way to say it, the Pacers need to recommit to being a top defensive team. Everyone. Right now.

I agree with you, but I think the Pacers maybe never were a top defensive team. With the shortened preseason and training camp teams offenses were way behind the defenses which explains the horrible shooting and low scoring early in the season. Now the offenses have caught up and this is what we got.

D-BONE
03-18-2012, 09:34 AM
Unless Granger shows me some sustained good offensive play over the course of season/playoffs, I will be more than happy to move him this offseason. I'm not talking a hot streak in a short playoff season a la Chicago last spring.

I'm talking consistently good play over a long duration. The guys is supposed to be one of our top offensive players and one of our perimeter shooting threats. But he can't shoot consistently!

If anything, the pressure has been taken off him by the depth of legitimate options around him, but it makes no difference. His 18 ppg avg is very misleading. Many nights his scoring does not positively impact the team and he's not a dependable guy per %s to get the outside shot when you have to have it. And he doesn't do enough overall to influence the game in other ways (consistently).

When you're supposed to provide veteran team leaderships, it has to start with leading by example when that's defined as your role. A role you have defined and accepted. I personally need to see more consistency from him. I think the team as a whole would be better for it.

Hicks
03-18-2012, 10:14 AM
By the way, you know what the problem really is?

The Pacers have been "solved". Their offense 100% chokes at the first sign of an aggressive double team. The Knicks badly overpursue and pull themselves into bad position, but the Pacers let them do it. Many teams have been going with hard doubles and traps the last few weeks and the Pacers appear to have no clue how to react.

This isn't just one guy either. DC and Roy really freak out, but Danny lets himself get trapped on the baseline and half of West's scores are just him forcing it and stepping awkwardly (but impressively) though a double.

Rotation and ball movement out of traps or doubles is slow and easy for the defense to react to. Rather than setting up the defense with fakes and anticipation moves that are countering the defense before it can even get to the ball, the Pacers let these traps just force them way out of position and into over the top slow lob passes and nasty cross-court skips that require a leap to catch at all.

Yep. The thing is, I think we have a coaching staff that is capable of adjusting for this, but the problem is there just is not much practice time this year at all. I would really like to think that if we could get a few more practices in in the near future, things would start to look a significantly better on offense.

Hopefully just having two days off now will give them some time to adjust.

Things definitely suck right now, but I think this team will bounce back eventually. Right now not only are we having our weaknesses exploited, but we are also not doing a very good job of using our strengths to full effect either.

Am I frustrated? Absolutely, but I would be shocked if we don't adapt in the near future. If we play like this all next week, I will be forced to reconsider.

Sparhawk
03-18-2012, 10:38 AM
I've been saying all year that I hate Vogel's egg timer subs. I know getting Hill his minutes is important, but it seems a lot of times that Paul gets red hot to start and then gets pulled 6 minutes into the game and proceeds to sit for 20min. You just can't do that.

Also, the Pacers are in a bad position. Coaching change mid season and the lockout have really hurt this team in terms of setting up a defense and offense. I wish the coach would just focus on the defense and smashmouth basketball. Instead it seems like he's trying to get the team to do more on offense, and now our D is suffering and our offense is only marginally better.

I'd love to see Hill to start. Set the defensive tone early. Then bring DC and Barbosa off the bench for super quickness that should eat the other teams second unit alive.

But for God's sake, stop taking out the hot hand! Ride it tell he's too tired or cools off.

Sparhawk
03-18-2012, 10:39 AM
And I love how Vogel will leave in Granger for the entire first quarter. To me, that's not a good thing, cause then he sits till about 3 min left into the 2nd.

Vogel gets a big "meh" from me for the lineup substitutions.

Also, I'm glad Price's minutes will be reduced, which is good cause I doubt he's on this team next year. But why aren't we getting Lance at least 5-10 min a game? He's most certainly going to be here and we aren't doing him any justice by having him ride the bench. Get him out there, let him take his knocks and to work on his game in order to get better. Or send him to the D-League.

Kid Minneapolis
03-18-2012, 11:17 AM
NY has more talent than Indy, they've been underachieving for over a season, and post-coaching change teams always play lights out for about 5 games before they come down off their high.

And we've had 3 back-to-backs in 8 days.

Y'all can jump off the cliff if ya want, but that's why we didn't win these games.

And ya know what? We're also still a young team. Last year we had just fired JOB and were looking awful. It's been 1 season. We're around .600. It's not that bad, guys.... you gotta go through the normal progression, and you don't go from bad to champions within one season. It's gonna be up and down.

vnzla81
03-18-2012, 11:23 AM
Like I said in the beginning of the season I still think that we are going to need an starting point guard and power forward next year, all that cap space and we didn't address our weaknesses, great....

Hicks
03-18-2012, 11:28 AM
Like I said in the beginning of the season I still think that we are going to need an starting point guard and power forward next year, all that cap space and we didn't address our weaknesses, great....

So you're saying David West is not a starting PF now?

vnzla81
03-18-2012, 11:49 AM
So you're saying David West is not a starting PF now?

I'm not sure if he is an starting power forward anymore, or at least he is not the right one for this team, Roy is too slow to play with him, we probably have the slowest PF/C combo on the NBA, is there another slower duo? I think he is the starter by default like DC but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be the starter if we had a guy like Gibson backing him up or if Tyler decided to get his head out of his :censored:


Don't think that I'm hating on the guy but 12.2 ppg and 6.8rpg plus bad to horrible D sometimes from your starting power forward doesn't sound like a recipe to succeed.

spreedom
03-18-2012, 11:55 AM
I'm not sure if he is an starting power forward anymore, or at least he is not the right one for this team, Roy is too slow to play with him, we probably have the slowest PF/C combo on the NBA, is there another slower duo?

Nowitzki/Haywood (when they're healthy) has got to be slower.

PR07
03-18-2012, 12:10 PM
It appears the jury is about to reach a decision on Collison, and that is, he's not the long-term answer at the position. Probably a really good backup, but for this team, we are going to need someone with exceptional passing and ball handling skills. Granger and George are already below average passers and ball handlers with Granger playing a lot as a big at New Mexico (which probably stifled some of his perimeter game) and George probably more of a 3 than 2 offensively at this point in his career. While our wing tandem is a strong asset normally, Pacers will need someone to compensate for both of their shortcomings in this department. It likely isn't Collison. His court awareness and passing is nothing more than passable.

However, it's not just Collison. This team appears to just be inconsistent. Granger's just had some real bad shooting nights, Hibbert and West have games where they don't show up in the box score, and George gets pulled mysteriously. Specifically, last night, how does West get away with shooting only 4 shots? He's supposed to be one of our best players! That can't happen.

I also know our frontcourt is labeled as slow and unathletic, but I also feel we have one of the strongest passing starting frontcourt duos in the league with Hibbert and West. I just don't feel we exploit it as much as we should.

Downtown Bang!
03-18-2012, 12:12 PM
During the first 20-25 games of the season I envisioned opposing coach's giving quite a few Denny Green style "the Pacers are who we thought they were............. and we let them off the hook" type of post game rants.

This team has certainly improved and deserves to be recognized as an honest play-off team but as currently constructed it is not built for the playoffs. Far from it in fact.

Anybody heading full tilt to the darkside based on this mediocre run of games needs to get a grip. The team is flawed. It has been since the opening game of the season and needs two or three more years to patiently reconfigure itself.

If the Pacers are going to be championship relevant in the next three or four years they need to carefully build a team with physical toughness and positional purity. Roy & PG (at the 3) are a good start but we will not win with an "intangible 4" like David West or a shoot first, non-distributer like Collison playing the point. That type of unbalanced squad doesn't work without an elite player and I don't see a Derrick Rose type landing in Indianapolis anytime soon.

Bird will get this done. He believes in the concept (ironic since most of his career he was an unconventional 3) and has the cap flexibility and the predatory patience to pull it off.

Some current fan favorites like Granger and Hansbrough likely won't be around to enjoy the full ride but don't be surprised if the 2014/2015 Pacers look suspiciously similar to the 1994/1995 Pacers.

DB

Bball
03-18-2012, 12:49 PM
For reasons unknown Granger has peaked and is on the decline. I'm even questioning his basketball IQ a bit. It seems like the smarter the team needs to play the less Granger seems able to adapt. He probably doesn't even fit as a starter if the truth be told and if Paul George is truly the heir apparent to the high-scoring wing starter the team needs. I'd probably start Hill for Granger and move Paul George to SF. I might change my thinking once I see how Barbosa fits with the team

I think the team got bitten somewhat expecting Foster to be around to help in the frontcourt which then caused Roy's minutes to be more than he should be playing. I'm going to run with the theory his asthma is a problem, probably THE problem, and he cannot maintain his early season pace logging heavy minutes. This is exacerbated by the team unable to keep the opposing team from paying for collapsing on Roy and making the game even tougher for him.

Tyler is not going to get where we need him to be. It was pseudo obvious last year, and confirmed this year. He either needs traded to try and recoup something from his draft position or he needs to move down the bench with situational minutes and wait for his contract to expire.

I don't know why Lou doesn't play more. Especially in light of the above with Tyler, Foster, and Roy's issues.

I think it would help improve Collison's game if the team as a whole improved around him and some of these flaws disappeared. In fact, I'm not sure this team won't be the death of any point guard with PG deferring, Granger's poor shooting, Tyler's lack of passing, and Roy's midseason swoons.

Which is not to let Collison off the hook here... But I'd like to see his game with a better defined pecking order with consistent results around him. Back when Roy was playing well we could look to him for buckets but now that the team has deferred back to Granger, or defenses have said "Let's let Granger try and beat us" Granger has simply not been up to the task.

And oh yeah... tell Roy to limit his cheating out for P n R defense to 2 steps... and maybe one.... With the priority being his ability to collapse back. IOW, a step or two to 'show' (and mess up the offense's timing and then back to cover the basket before the backdoor stays open too long and too much.

Nuntius
03-18-2012, 12:52 PM
Peck, you have every right in the world to be negative at the moment. I am negative as well. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Kemo was negative either :(

Gold
03-18-2012, 01:05 PM
During the first 20-25 games of the season I envisioned opposing coach's giving quite a few Denny Green style "the Pacers are who we thought they were............. and we let them off the hook" type of post game rants.

This team has certainly improved and deserves to be recognized as an honest play-off team but as currently constructed it is not built for the playoffs. Far from it in fact.

Anybody heading full tilt to the darkside based on this mediocre run of games needs to get a grip. The team is flawed. It has been since the opening game of the season and needs two or three more years to patiently reconfigure itself.

If the Pacers are going to be championship relevant in the next three or four years they need to carefully build a team with physical toughness and positional purity. Roy & PG (at the 3) are a good start but we will not win with an "intangible 4" like David West or a shoot first, non-distributer like Collison playing the point. That type of unbalanced squad doesn't work without an elite player and I don't see a Derrick Rose type landing in Indianapolis anytime soon.

Bird will get this done. He believes in the concept (ironic since most of his career he was an unconventional 3) and has the cap flexibility and the predatory patience to pull it off.

Some current fan favorites like Granger and Hansbrough likely won't be around to enjoy the full ride but don't be surprised if the 2014/2015 Pacers look suspiciously similar to the 1994/1995 Pacers.

DB

I'm all for the doom and gloom at this point but are we really we're gonna pretend that David West is exactly what we need coming playoff time? He's our best player down the stretch. lol.

Isaac
03-18-2012, 01:29 PM
We need to upgrade Collison and Hansbrough. Neither are good enough to be consistent in the roles they are in.

Peck
03-18-2012, 01:45 PM
We need to upgrade Collison and Hansbrough. Neither are good enough to be consistent in the roles they are in.

Simple, to the point and brilliant.

vnzla81
03-18-2012, 01:56 PM
He went small for an extended period of time. This was because David “I can’t rotate laterally without the aid of a hoveround”

I would like to also mention that this quoted part was the funniest part of your post, good job :lmao:

CableKC
03-18-2012, 02:05 PM
I posted this over a year ago:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=62167&highlight=Collison

When your point guard is a bad distributor, your team will take bad shots with the clock expiring and be last in the league in assists.
Although it's easy to blame DC for everything.....DC isn't the only one that does this. I recall several times over the course of different games when Hansbrough ( who doesn't always play with Hansbrough ) was the recipient of last second passes where he has to create some shot out of nothing. How many times has GH taken and hit some last second shot?

This is a problem that the entire Team shares...as to why, I don't know. Is it a problem that stems from Vogel's offense or lack thereof?

joeyd
03-18-2012, 02:06 PM
.....I am sick to death of reading ....this is what we expected in the pre-season and that we all knew we weren’t as good as Chicago, Miami or Oklahoma City.

I am going to blame most of this on players but sorry Frank has to take his lumps here as well.

This is the only way we can win is by playing the dregs of the NBA.

You can be sick to death of reading that this was what was expected and that we aren't as good as Chicago/Miami but it doesn't change the facts and that the situation likely won't change this season. If you are or were expecting differently, then you won't enjoy the balance of this season, and you won't be able to appreciate that finishing with a 6th seed and a winning record (which are still very likely outcomes) represents a nice improvement from last season.

People are wanting to get rid of DC, but he is still young and was without benefit of a real training camp for what would have been his second full season as a starter. I am willing to give him another year. He does have flashes of brilliance occasionally, and I believe his flaws are largely correctable.

Definitely blame Frank as well as the players. I would be satisfied if he taught more discipline and practiced what he preached. We were down by 6 or 7, and he gets a technical? This is followed shortly thereafter by a George Hill technical. Yes, they only got 1 point out of them, but these transgressions are going to bite us in the butt during a close game.

Finally, keep in mind that the majority of the better middle-of-the-road teams get the majority of their wins against the dregs of the league.

I doubt these comments will make you feel better. But at least it is hard to say that there was no effort last night, as seemed to be the case the night before.

vnzla81
03-18-2012, 02:12 PM
You can be sick to death of reading that this was what was expected and that we aren't as good as Chicago/Miami but it doesn't change the facts and that the situation likely won't change this season. If you are or were expecting differently, then you won't enjoy the balance of this season, and you won't be able to appreciate that finishing with a 6th seed and a winning record (which are still very likely outcomes) represents a nice improvement from last season.

People are wanting to get rid of DC, but he is still young and was without benefit of a real training camp for what would have been his second full season as a starter. I am willing to give him another year. He does have flashes of brilliance occasionally, and I believe his flaws are largely correctable.

Definitely blame Frank as well as the players. I would be satisfied if he taught more discipline and practiced what he preached. We were down by 6 or 7, and he gets a technical? This is followed shortly thereafter by a George Hill technical. Yes, they only got 1 point out of them, but these transgressions are going to bite us in the butt during a close game.

Finally, keep in mind that the majority of the better middle-of-the-road teams get the majority of their wins against the dregs of the league.

I doubt these comments will make you feel better. But at least it is hard to say that there was no effort last night, as seemed to be the case the night before.

"Give DC another year"? ....... Hell no!!!!

Peck
03-18-2012, 02:18 PM
You can be sick to death of reading that this was what was expected and that we aren't as good as Chicago/Miami but it doesn't change the facts and that the situation likely won't change this season. If you are or were expecting differently, then you won't enjoy the balance of this season, and you won't be able to appreciate that finishing with a 6th seed and a winning record (which are still very likely outcomes) represents a nice improvement from last season.

People are wanting to get rid of DC, but he is still young and was without benefit of a real training camp for what would have been his second full season as a starter. I am willing to give him another year. He does have flashes of brilliance occasionally, and I believe his flaws are largely correctable.

Definitely blame Frank as well as the players. I would be satisfied if he taught more discipline and practiced what he preached. We were down by 6 or 7, and he gets a technical? This is followed shortly thereafter by a George Hill technical. Yes, they only got 1 point out of them, but these transgressions are going to bite us in the butt during a close game.

Finally, keep in mind that the majority of the better middle-of-the-road teams get the majority of their wins against the dregs of the league.

I doubt these comments will make you feel better. But at least it is hard to say that there was no effort last night, as seemed to be the case the night before.

Frank did not only get that technical he sought out that technical. In other words he got that on purpose, now his timing was certainly off but I understand his reasoning. He had been emphatically trying to get any call on our end to no avail.

The refs. last night were not great but they didn't cost us the game either.

As to the rest of your post, we'll just agree to disagree. I am not happy having to admit that the early season good record was simply us catching other teams un prepared & the benefit of having a younger team (who had actually been together for awhile) against more veteran teams. But as you guys are so happy to point out, I guess that was the case.

You do realize though that we actually have a losing record over the past month right? So if we were that way all season long then we would actually be competing with the Bucks & the Cavs. for the 8th seed and right now with the way we are playing I'm not sure we would be able to take it. We just need to be gratefull that for whatever reason the early season record was there.

Justin Tyme
03-18-2012, 02:34 PM
As mentioned, Roy always stays up to help on a pick and roll and leaves his man along with the lane wide open which causes for easy offense for the opposing team.

As for DC the numbers show that he was better in New Orleans and that was because it was more of a point guard system.


I too have started thinking about this off-season and have come to a few conclusions.... A) We need an upgrade at the point guard. I know it's a topic that is always discussed on here and it is becoming more and more noticeable. In Vogel's system there must be a guy like Nash who can facilitate the offense

. B) We need an athletic power forward who can block shots. It sounds all too familiar because that is what we needed coming into the season and it is starting to show that we still do. I love David West, but he is simply too slow to guard the many athletic 4's he is faced with most nights.
I am having strong doubts about our game against the Clippers on Tuesday and I hope I'm wrong.


Roy shouldn't be playing "D" at the top of the circle helping the PG. That's Vogel's fault! It's also DC's fault b/c he can't contain his man.

As far as DC and his #'s in NOLA. it was the system, and I pointed that out b4 the Pacers ever traded for DC. I wasn't in favor of trading for DC when Augustin, Lawson, Maynor, and DC were being discussed on this forum. Most were in favor of getting DC. Prime example of being careful for what one wishes for. I'll say this again, I'm not impressed with Bird's choices of PG. I'm not sure he really knows NBA players that well. DC and Ford are prime examples. I won't even go in depth about the PG Bird let get away.


I have posted daily in the random thoughts thread players who have been playing well. Anyone notice how Dragic has been playing since Lowry went out? Last 5 games 16 points 9.4 asts are his stats. 8.5/2/4 overall for the season for 2 mil. What A bargin! He'll be a UFA this summer.

Anyone notice Bayless last 5 games? 21.8 pts & 7.6 asts. (I hope Shade doesn't read this post or he may have a meltdown.)

An athletic big 4/5 would be nice. Not sure what can be gotten in the draft. I'm not certain a young player like JJ Hickson couldn't be gotten.

I only hope Tyler worx on his game this summer and if no improvement in it Bird won't hesitate to move him.

joeyd
03-18-2012, 02:41 PM
Frank did not only get that technical he sought out that technical. In other words he got that on purpose, now his timing was certainly off but I understand his reasoning. He had been emphatically trying to get any call on our end to no avail.

The refs. last night were not great but they didn't cost us the game either.

As to the rest of your post, we'll just agree to disagree. I am not happy having to admit that the early season good record was simply us catching other teams un prepared & the benefit of having a younger team (who had actually been together for awhile) against more veteran teams. But as you guys are so happy to point out, I guess that was the case.

You do realize though that we actually have a losing record over the past month right? So if we were that way all season long then we would actually be competing with the Bucks & the Cavs. for the 8th seed and right now with the way we are playing I'm not sure we would be able to take it. We just need to be gratefull that for whatever reason the early season record was there.

I realize that Frank sought out the technical. IMO it's still a lack of discipline for him to do so. Did he really think he was going to influence the calls? Any time you are behind like that with a clear momentum shift and having been killed the night before (against the same team) you don't jeopardize your chances. Frank did, and George Hill did later. Well-disciplined teams don't give away points like that.

Also, really not fair to lump me in with the "you guys" classification. I think there were a variety of reasons why we got off to a good start, but the "catching off guard" reasoning is but one piece of the equation. I think we played better than the sum of our parts, which is something we are not doing now.

I do realize we have a losing record this month, but a month is just a snapshot in time, just like the first month was. Month-to-month dissections are good for spotting trends sometimes, but are not of much worth in the big picture for statisticians, and as we often see in the playoffs (not necessarily with the Pacers), they are not indicative of playoff performance, save for maybe the last month or so heading down to the wire when a team has had to make their final adjustments.

I'm not saying that I'm not a litle disappointed of late, nor that anyone else should not be, but again, I will be happy with some improvement this season, especially knowing that more moves are on the horizon for next season.

Justin Tyme
03-18-2012, 02:47 PM
Young team, little to no practice time to put in sets, nobody who knows how to pass and move without the ball, everybody trying to create for themselves. That works when your team has the superior athleticism which the Pacers do against a good number of teams. Against teams that have better records and understand defense, the Pacers cannot get away with this and generally get blown away unless the shots are falling.

I miss Dunleavy and McRoberts and their basketball IQ and the fundamentals they learned from Coach K which they continued to apply during their time here. They were far more important to the franchise than most give them credit for. I could not care less that McRoberts has not played much for the Lakers, and I honestly have no clue how Dunleavy has been playing for the Bucks, or if he even has been. I just know that both were undervalued here, and their contributions on both ends of the floor are becoming more obvious as this season is progressing.


I have no problem with McBob being gone as Lou has filled in fine. BUT I can agree with not having Dun. He has been a really good player for the Bucks off the bench this year. The Pacers do miss that and could use it.

JFYI, Dun is 12/3.5/2.5 on 47%/39.5%/84.5% for the Bucks at 3.75 mil. Excellent bargain for them!!

CJ Jones
03-18-2012, 02:55 PM
Roy shouldn't be playing "D" at the top of the circle helping the PG. That's Vogel's fault! It's also DC's fault b/c he can't contain his man.



What can Vogel do about it though? Teams are running the p&r with Roy's man. Hill would help because he can get around screens and he has more length, but until we get better help defenders at PF, we're going to struggle.

Damn I miss Jeff...

graphic-er
03-18-2012, 03:12 PM
Come to think of it I miss that from Dunleavy as well. Never thought I would say that... He has been putting up pretty solid numbers for the Bucks too. I think maybe it was a mistake to let him go, we should have signed him for a cheap deal during the off-season.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1708/mike-dunleavy

Please...you think he would have stayed here?

graphic-er
03-18-2012, 03:32 PM
Somebody mentioned Dragic as a replacement for DC in the offseaon. I would agree, the kid has length and he is 6-3. He isn't really strong, but he is pretty quick. He could be had for a reasonable contract I suspect too. Another player I am full on for making a run at is "The Hump". He has been on a tear this season, and would easily push West for the Starter's position. It all depends on if Bird will have givin up on Hansbrough.

I hope Bird is scouting for the poor man's version of Vernon Davis for our pick in the 20's.

Peck
03-18-2012, 03:32 PM
I realize that Frank sought out the technical. IMO it's still a lack of discipline for him to do so. Did he really think he was going to influence the calls? Any time you are behind like that with a clear momentum shift and having been killed the night before (against the same team) you don't jeopardize your chances. Frank did, and George Hill did later. Well-disciplined teams don't give away points like that.

Also, really not fair to lump me in with the "you guys" classification. I think there were a variety of reasons why we got off to a good start, but the "catching off guard" reasoning is but one piece of the equation. I think we played better than the sum of our parts, which is something we are not doing now.

I do realize we have a losing record this month, but a month is just a snapshot in time, just like the first month was. Month-to-month dissections are good for spotting trends sometimes, but are not of much worth in the big picture for statisticians, and as we often see in the playoffs (not necessarily with the Pacers), they are not indicative of playoff performance, save for maybe the last month or so heading down to the wire when a team has had to make their final adjustments.

I'm not saying that I'm not a litle disappointed of late, nor that anyone else should not be, but again, I will be happy with some improvement this season, especially knowing that more moves are on the horizon for next season.

No, but something that everybody just brushed over and never talked about on here was the fact that after the Orlando game Lou Amundson was called into Frank's office because he was unhappy that the coach did not do enough to stand up for him when he felt that Dwight was getting away with murder.

So there is a real possibility that Frank was not trying to influence the call but to show his team that he was standing up for them.

Obviously you & I agree that the timing was poor, if he was going to do that he should have done it earlier in the game.

I'm not even saying that this is the reason, for all I know he just could have been mad and it boiled over. But it is possible that this was a reason.

CJ Jones
03-18-2012, 05:05 PM
No, but something that everybody just brushed over and never talked about on here was the fact that after the Orlando game Lou Amundson was called into Frank's office because he was unhappy that the coach did not do enough to stand up for him when he felt that Dwight was getting away with murder.

So there is a real possibility that Frank was not trying to influence the call but to show his team that he was standing up for them.

Obviously you & I agree that the timing was poor, if he was going to do that he should have done it earlier in the game.

I'm not even saying that this is the reason, for all I know he just could have been mad and it boiled over. But it is possible that this was a reason.

When was this discussed? I must have missed it.

Peck
03-18-2012, 05:08 PM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20120312/SPORTS04/203120320/Pacers-notebook-George-offers-lone-bright-spot

Called to the coach's office
Lou Amundson met with Vogel in his office after the game after the Pacers big man thought the coach didn't do enough to protect him with the officials during the game.

Amundson and Magic center Dwight Howard got physical on a number of plays under the basket. Howard took exception to Amundson inadvertently hitting him in the groin in the fourth quarter. A.J. Price and Tyler Hansbrough exchanged words with Howard after the play. Hansbrough and Howard were given technical fouls.

Amundson, who had four fouls, voiced his displeasure to Vogel about his supposed lack of support to the officials during a timeout. Associate head coach Brian Shaw talked with Amundson outside the huddle during the timeout.

Nuntius
03-18-2012, 06:15 PM
I didn't know that, Peck. Thanks for sharing :)

Hicks
03-18-2012, 06:24 PM
I can't brush over something I had never read before. Actually, I'm surprised nobody that did catch it, including apparently you, ever posted it here when it was first out there.

Peck
03-18-2012, 06:44 PM
I can't brush over something I had never read before. Actually, I'm surprised nobody that did catch it, including apparently you, ever posted it here when it was first out there.

I just assumed everybody read it and nobody cared.

vnzla81
03-18-2012, 06:48 PM
By the way Peck I saw you leaving yesterday with like 5minutes to go, I thought you were a "true fan" :p

joeyd
03-18-2012, 06:53 PM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20120312/SPORTS04/203120320/Pacers-notebook-George-offers-lone-bright-spot

Called to the coach's office
Lou Amundson met with Vogel in his office after the game after the Pacers big man thought the coach didn't do enough to protect him with the officials during the game.

Amundson and Magic center Dwight Howard got physical on a number of plays under the basket. Howard took exception to Amundson inadvertently hitting him in the groin in the fourth quarter. A.J. Price and Tyler Hansbrough exchanged words with Howard after the play. Hansbrough and Howard were given technical fouls.

Amundson, who had four fouls, voiced his displeasure to Vogel about his supposed lack of support to the officials during a timeout. Associate head coach Brian Shaw talked with Amundson outside the huddle during the timeout.

I think we are on the same page about this.

Yeah, I had heard something about it, but my only two thoughts really were this: I thought it was funny that Howard took "exception to Amundson inadvertantly hitting him in the groin." If you took exception to something, the understanding is that you might retaliate, but not in an inadvertant way. So I thought that was funny. The second issue about Lou not getting support....there are other ways to support a player other than having a tech called against you as a coach, in that game or in a game taking place several days down the road.

I am all for the coach using the properly placed tech to show support for his team. I think we all agree that the best time for a coach to get a tech is when the team is when the game is no longer in question, or when it is doubtful that the tech will influence the outcome. I just don't want the players thinking that they should also go out of their way to get a tech when the game is in doubt.

joeyd
03-18-2012, 06:55 PM
"Give DC another year"? ....... Hell no!!!!

I realize that some folks may not be as patient as I am! But the reality is that most players do not become fully developed after two training camps, only one of which was with the player designated a first-teamer, and only after one where he was with a new team AND a different coach. These things could make a difference in a player's development, don't ya think?

pacer4ever
03-18-2012, 06:57 PM
I'm not sure if he is an starting power forward anymore, or at least he is not the right one for this team, Roy is too slow to play with him, we probably have the slowest PF/C combo on the NBA, is there another slower duo? I think he is the starter by default like DC but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be the starter if we had a guy like Gibson backing him up or if Tyler decided to get his head out of his :censored:


Don't think that I'm hating on the guy but 12.2 ppg and 6.8rpg plus bad to horrible D sometimes from your starting power forward doesn't sound like a recipe to succeed.

I am starting to agree with this thinking and for one reason. Neither Roy or West protect the rim we really need a guy to protect the rim and the paint. The main reason the area gets exposed so much is everyone on our team gambles on defense. Paul, Danny, Tyler(one of the dumbest PF defenders ive ever seen), Djones and DC really gamble like Crazy on defense. We need to either have our players play more disciplined on defense and play with their feet not hands. Or get a big who protects the paint. We really need a Tyson Chandler type defender to make up for all the silly gambling the team does on defense. There are a few bigs in this draft could help but we really need to get an athletic big who puts fear in people after they beat their man because their man goes for a steal/

We really need a pg and a paint protector

Peck
03-18-2012, 07:02 PM
I am starting to agree with this thinking and for one reason. Neither Roy or West protect the rim we really need a guy to protect the rim and the paint. The main reason the area gets exposed so much is everyone on our team gambles on defense. Paul, Danny, Tyler(one of the dumbest PF defenders ive ever seen), Djones and DC really gamble like Crazy on defense. We need to either have our players play more disciplined on defense and play with their feet not hands. Or get a big who protects the paint. We really need a Tyson Chandler type defender to make up for all the silly gambling the team does on defense. There are a few bigs in this draft could help but we really need to get an athletic big who puts fear in people after they beat their man because their man goes for a steal/

We really need a pg and a paint protector

The slow power forward & center play is one of the reasons Danny get's burned so often by backdoor cuts or his man being open for a three.

When Roy is out front and Darren loses his man the lane is all but wide open thus either Danny or David has to cut off of his man to shut down the lane. West at best is slow in doing so and often times frankly doesn't even try, thus Danny get's caught scrambling between his man & the lane. I'm not excusing Danny when he just loses his guy but there have been many times that he rotates to cover and nobody is left to cover his man.

I fault the defensive system here & not the players because the system needs to be molded to fit the players we have, not just what the system calls for. It's kind of like O'Brien's problem just on the defensive end.

Sollozzo
03-18-2012, 08:05 PM
This weekend was a tough pill to swallow but the fact is, the Knicks are just a much more talented team than we are. The rest of the league lucked out that they were poorly coached for so long, but now they will be very dangerous for the rest of the season and into the postseason if they continue to buy into Woodson.

We saw the bounce that the Pacers got a year ago when they fired Vogel. So it's no surprise that a more talented Knicks team is getting a large one with their coaching change. A Knicks team that is clicking and playing D would bulldoze us in a playoff series, IMO.

I think that the only two teams we could win a series against right now are Philly and Atlanta. I still think that Boston would muster up enough strength to beat us when push came to shove. Not to mention that Rondo would shred us.

Granville Fleming
03-18-2012, 09:09 PM
I think this is attributed that no one on this team has any handles whatsoever, and they cannot pass.

PR07
03-19-2012, 12:04 AM
If Hansbrough isn't good enough for his role that he's currently in, then he's a bust no? I mean we didn't make him a lottery pick, so he can sit in warm ups all game and wave a towel around like Scalabrine. I think it's premature, but that's what a statement like that tells me.

jeffg-body
03-19-2012, 01:31 AM
I don't think that it was much as the Knicks are more talented. We couldn't hit the broad sign of a barn for the most part. These were two ugly games and it should not linger around and turn two in a row to 4-6 in a row. Getting Barbosa is gonna payoff, most likely not Tuesday but later on towards the end of the season and into the playoffs.

Unclebuck
03-19-2012, 10:26 AM
Our defense has got to change right now, if we do nothing else at our next practice we need to make it so that we quit having our 7’2” center rotate off of his man during the pick and roll and attempt to force the dribbler away from the basket leaving him 18-20’ away from the rim while either his man or another cutter makes a mad dash at the rim for the usual and customary and 1 play. This by the way is not Roy’s fault, there may be a hand full of legitimate big men who could rotate back that fast & sadly Chandler is one of them. I would much rather give up an open 18’ jumper than have the layup line that goes on during games. This happens time and time again.

Yes I know other players are supposed to rotate over to help, well guess what when they do then the cutter just tosses it to the now wide open player leaving our help defender scrambling back to him with arms flailing as he watches the mostly uncontested three point shot go flying up.

Even when these shots miss the likely hood that the offensive team gets the rebound is now becoming more and more likely as once again we have been outrebounded.



This is the specific reason why I do not like slow big lumbering centers and specifically why I like athletic, quick mobile centers. Teams are killing us on pick and rolls just like they did for years when Rik Smits was on our team.

daschysta
03-19-2012, 10:53 AM
Frank did not only get that technical he sought out that technical. In other words he got that on purpose, now his timing was certainly off but I understand his reasoning. He had been emphatically trying to get any call on our end to no avail.

The refs. last night were not great but they didn't cost us the game either.

As to the rest of your post, we'll just agree to disagree. I am not happy having to admit that the early season good record was simply us catching other teams un prepared & the benefit of having a younger team (who had actually been together for awhile) against more veteran teams. But as you guys are so happy to point out, I guess that was the case.

You do realize though that we actually have a losing record over the past month right? So if we were that way all season long then we would actually be competing with the Bucks & the Cavs. for the 8th seed and right now with the way we are playing I'm not sure we would be able to take it. We just need to be gratefull that for whatever reason the early season record was there.

Over the last month we are 8-6 or 7-6, during that time we crushed most of the teams we were supposed to crush, and had a very close loss vs. elite Miami and played close with Atlanta. The only really "bad" losses were the chicago one, who was looking for revenge after we beat them there last game and the Miami one plus the cavs and Magic, mostly really good teams for the most part, and mostly on the road too.

The knicks have a talented roster, and are on a post coaching change high, the losses are unfortunate, but it isn't as doom and gloom as you make it sound, not even close. Some positives are that Roy bounced back in a big way after chandler owned him last night, showing some mental toughness some people assume he doesn't have, and George is developing really quickly as well.

What does this equal up to? A team that is in the same tier as the other teams in the second tier in the east, behind Miami and Chicago. We destroyed Philly and typically play orl and atl close. new York minus Diantoni is in that tier too, we played two horrible games, but the world isn't ending. We're still younger than most of the teams in our range, with more capspace and upside.

bellisimo
03-19-2012, 10:55 AM
yes - our players do look like headless chickens when they're running our pick-n-roll defense

BillS
03-19-2012, 01:19 PM
yes - our players do look like headless chickens when they're running our pick-n-roll <strike>defense</strike>

Fixed.

Naptown_Seth
03-19-2012, 01:33 PM
Philly goes to NY and wins by 12
Philly comes to IND and loses by 17
NY comes to IND and wins by 14

This makes perfect sense.

I realize there was a coaching change, but seriously how much can be implemented in 1-2 days? Hicks just alluded to how the Pacers staff struggles to find room to work on stuff during the season.

spreedom
03-19-2012, 01:35 PM
Philly goes to NY and wins by 12
Philly comes to IND and loses by 17
NY comes to IND and wins by 14

This makes perfect sense.

I realize there was a coaching change, but seriously how much can be implemented in 1-2 days? Hicks just alluded to how the Pacers staff struggles to find room to work on stuff during the season.


I think it's probably more a product of a different voice who stresses different principles (i.e. defense versus offense). I still don't think the Knicks are any good though.

Naptown_Seth
03-19-2012, 01:42 PM
I don't think that it was much as the Knicks are more talented. We couldn't hit the broad sign of a barn for the most part. These were two ugly games and it should not linger around and turn two in a row to 4-6 in a row. Getting Barbosa is gonna payoff, most likely not Tuesday but later on towards the end of the season and into the playoffs.
But the reason they aren't shooting well is because they don't get good offensive sets when they see high pressure.

As someone else mentioned on page 1 responding to me, they did get some corner 3s vs NY when the hard trap broke down or when they did a good job of attacking the trap with layered spacing the length of the half court. The ball would leave the trap to West, West could threaten Landry and force him to fully commit to him which left Hill and George with open 3s in the corner.

But most of the time they aren't moving the ball ahead of the traps. They let teams aggressively attack the ball or the pass without making them pay by getting behind them.

Fake pass = bite by aggressive defender = back door cut

Or when a guy tries to close out on the ball you move it right back where it came from as soon as it gets to you. You don't have the time to size things up, you have to show it and move it ASAP so you stay ahead of them.

That gets you some flow in the defense, spacing and guys out of position. This gets you the cut or the shot fake cut to the lane. You 100% know they will attack that hard so your off ball guy comes just behind them in a way that shows a passing lane for the dump.

Bingo easy score. You punish traps and doubles enough and they back off just like a zone will.

But if you keep letting it have results then there is no reason to stop. Guys will dig deep for the energy to keep it up because they are seeing results and feeding off the emotions of the TOs and easy scores.

Deflate that energy by turning it on itself. And that happens at the BEGINNING of ball possession (for each guy, not the team's possession). It also requires other guys off the ball punishing the double with good spacing that accentuates the distance but leaves a safe path for the ball to get to them also. You can't just stand and watch.

Aggressive defenses are like the big swing boxer. Dangerous yes, but also extra vulnerable due to selling out.

BillS
03-19-2012, 01:47 PM
I realize there was a coaching change, but seriously how much can be implemented in 1-2 days? Hicks just alluded to how the Pacers staff struggles to find room to work on stuff during the season.

Remember the lift the Pacers got immediately after their coaching change? Some of it is simply energy - guys that had been coasting or giving up on their game suddenly decide to play hard. Some of it is very simple philosophical change - running plays that exist for certain players but weren't used often under the previous coach. Some of it is defense, which at a man-to-man level is more about effort than about playmaking & practice.

The Knicks may find their own level once again, which might mean a playoff series between us would have a different outcome from this past series. The Pacers who could hit wide open shots might also show up sometime later in the season, though I am not completely confident.

vnzla81
03-19-2012, 03:08 PM
Philly goes to NY and wins by 12
Philly comes to IND and loses by 17
NY comes to IND and wins by 14

This makes perfect sense.

I realize there was a coaching change, but seriously how much can be implemented in 1-2 days? Hicks just alluded to how the Pacers staff struggles to find room to work on stuff during the season.

Coaching change, Melo and Amare getting healthy, Lin having more playing time with Melo/Amare, JR Smith getting used to the system, there is a reason why many analyst(including myself) said that if NY gets their s*** together they could be the 3rd best team in the east, NY is packed with talent, their starting five is the best starting five in the league in my opinion (Lin,JR,Melo,Amare,Tyson).

TheDavisBrothers
03-19-2012, 03:34 PM
JR Smith isn't a starter, Landry Fields is...

xIndyFan
03-19-2012, 07:19 PM
JR Smith isn't a starter, Landry Fields is...

after watching woodson and fields saturday, fields might not be for long. woodson read him the riot act about his defense.

spreedom
03-19-2012, 07:38 PM
after watching woodson and fields saturday, fields might not be for long. woodson read him the riot act about his defense.

Boy, he's going to love JR Smith then.