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vnzla81
03-16-2012, 08:42 PM
:nuclear::nuclear:

Il Ragionier Ugo Fantozzi
03-16-2012, 08:46 PM
Tomorrow is another day...

yoadknux
03-16-2012, 08:47 PM
:notamused:

Shade
03-16-2012, 08:49 PM
I'm sick of this team just flat-out not showing up for games.

graphic-er
03-16-2012, 08:56 PM
I'm sick of this team just flat-out not showing up for games.

Pretty much the only thing I can away from this game too.

Both teams started out rather Physical and playing rather sloppy as well, then all the sudden wham! Pacers fell apart. I dunno if you can the Pacers fell apart offensively because we are scored our average, so it must be the Defense.

DemonHunter1105
03-16-2012, 08:58 PM
I was too busy watching purdue win and duke lose to care enough about this loss. If this happens tomorrow then I will be upset.

LoneGranger33
03-16-2012, 08:58 PM
We fed Hibbert in the beginning and he rewarded us with seven quick misses.

D-BONE
03-16-2012, 09:00 PM
You just can't be THIS bad coming of a nice win at home and with at least a day to rest. It's not the loss it's how they lost.

Hoop
03-16-2012, 09:01 PM
It's not just losing, it's how we don't show up at all for games. Hard fought losses are OK. Like in Miami, we played hard, made mistakes, lost. Tonight no excuse, we didn't even try half the game, sickening.

Brad8888
03-16-2012, 09:04 PM
Tomorrow is yet another opportunity to play against a team that has two superstars who significantly overmatch anyone the Pacers have on the roster. Without lights out shooting, there is little hope at this point with little to no team concept in place, especially on offense.

I wish that the Pacers could be forced to go through a practice where no one is allowed to dribble, and offense is created through ball and player movement, with players being rewarded for being in scoring position because they are more likely to receive a pass when they are.

It would also force the defense to tighten up even more because a solid passing and purposeful motion offense will beat a man defense because no one can outrun a crisp pass to an alert scorer on a hard cut.

Heavy :sigh:

odeez
03-16-2012, 09:05 PM
:nuclear::nuclear:

Perfect!

vnzla81
03-16-2012, 09:06 PM
Hey at least we ended up losing by 15 points instead of 30 :happydanc

croz24
03-16-2012, 09:07 PM
Not been leadership on this team since Reggie retired.

odeez
03-16-2012, 09:08 PM
You just can't be THIS bad coming of a nice win at home and with at least a day to rest. It's not the loss it's how they lost.

You are 100% right, this loss says a lot about our toughness and ability to take one on the chin and bounce back. We quit after the 1st qtr, that is what bothers me the most!

Magic P
03-16-2012, 09:10 PM
This game was over in the 1st, six points after ten minutes of play is unacceptable.

odeez
03-16-2012, 09:10 PM
Can anyone guess why PG didn't make more of an impact? I know he is still young, but at this point I expect more from him. ANd ROy, I am so down on dude right now. DG just can't seem to hit a shot, disappointing!

Shade
03-16-2012, 09:11 PM
Nine of our 17 losses this season have been by 10 or more points.

Our average margin of loss is 11 points per game this season.

odeez
03-16-2012, 09:11 PM
Nine of our 17 losses this season have been by 10 or more points.

Our average margin of loss is 11 points per game this season.

Wow!

MiaDragon
03-16-2012, 09:12 PM
I'm sick of this team just flat-out not showing up for games.

but shame on you for not buying more tickets.

AesopRockOn
03-16-2012, 09:13 PM
Didn't see any of the game like always, but if we win tomorrow, everything is forgiven. You're supposed to split home-and-homes. If the Knicks win on their home court, then we win on our home court, **** is all hunky dorey. If we lose tomorrow, then we just wait until the next Sixer-like game where we really show up and feel good again. It's been this way, it will be this way.

Your major concerns are still the starting point guard position, acclimating our recent acquisition, and making sure everyone important shows up when the games are on the line in terms of final seeding and then the postseason.

Or maybe I can't get too down because the kids from Greendale are back.

Kid Minneapolis
03-16-2012, 09:13 PM
Ya, when we lose ---- we LOSE.

This team can be pretty Jekyll/Hyde. They can dominate one game; be dominated the next.

PGisthefuture
03-16-2012, 09:13 PM
I would have predicted this coming from the Knicks prior to the season with all their talent. After the season they've had It's just embarrassing. Just gotta put it behind us and be the aggressor tomorrow and destroy them.

BornReady
03-16-2012, 09:14 PM
Hibbert is single handedly lowering his own stock for this off season.

Hoop
03-16-2012, 09:15 PM
Tomorrow is yet another opportunity to play against a team that has two superstars who significantly overmatch anyone the Pacers have on the roster. Without lights out shooting, there is little hope at this point with little to no team concept in place, especially on offense.

I wish that the Pacers could be forced to go through a practice where no one is allowed to dribble, and offense is created through ball and player movement, with players being rewarded for being in scoring position because they are more likely to receive a pass when they are.

It would also force the defense to tighten up even more because a solid passing and purposeful motion offense will beat a man defense because no one can outrun a crisp pass to an alert scorer on a hard cut.

Heavy :sigh:
Their 2 "superstars" were 4-12 12pts & 3-9 8pts. There team beat us, not superstars.

presto123
03-16-2012, 09:15 PM
Maybe Bird should start requiring complete mental evaluation for anybody coming to the team. Pacers need their own traveling psychologist with this team. Can't count on hardly anybody to show up every night.

Unclebuck
03-16-2012, 09:16 PM
We fed Hibbert in the beginning and he rewarded us with seven quick misses.

Chandler made Hibbert look silly. It was such a mismatch

LoneGranger33
03-16-2012, 09:16 PM
Hibbert is single handedly lowering his own stock for this off season.

The worst part is that I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not.

Pacerfan
03-16-2012, 09:16 PM
Our defense in general was bad, but out interior defense was particularly bad. Sometimes I wonder if West can't defend because of his knee or chooses not to. Hibbert can defend but obviously chose not to this game.

MiaDragon
03-16-2012, 09:16 PM
any one have a link to the post game presser? Id like to hear what Frank has to say about this.

Pacer Fan
03-16-2012, 09:17 PM
Roy is mentally challenged...There is no excuse for the way he plays. He is really starting to **** me off.

I could go on a rant and say all he did so wrong. I could say what all he didn't do. I'm to pissed off to do so.

West looked like a matador without is cape. Wrong sport David West! Suppose to stay in front of your opponent.

presto123
03-16-2012, 09:20 PM
We are going to need a motivational speaker before every game to remind this team that they only beat teams with defensive effort. They can't seem to remember that from game to game.

Magic P
03-16-2012, 09:20 PM
Hibbert is single handedly lowering his own stock for this off season.

Imagine if he signed a huge contract before the allstar break.

Midcoasted
03-16-2012, 09:25 PM
We simply can't guard the three point line effectively with whatever defense we have been running for the last umpteen years it seems. We need to have our guys go one on one more and guard the 3. Too often our guy is slacking looking for the double team and we get burnt on a rhythm three for it. It's actually sickening to see us get dominated from 3/long range 2s like this seemingly every loss.

I also agree that we need to implement a better form of the motion offense. When we succeed, we seem to pass the ball well without dribbling. When we lose, the other team does it well and lights us up from three because we are looking to trap on the double leaving a trailer running at the three point shooter that is already in rhythm. Our whole switch scheme seems to be off in these losses because like Brad8888 said, a quick pass beats a dribble.

How do we change it? I don't know, but I think more man defense schemes would be a start. I think we have the talent defensively to guard people straight up. I feel like you put Hibbert and Collison at a loss when they are trying to close after a failed trap because Hibbert just isn't quick enough and Collison just isn't long enough, and neither ever will be. They are much better guarding their man straight up then trying to close on a player after the trap.

I don't know how to fix it. Hopefully the coaches and the players do. Maybe the coaches feel our lineup can't guard people straight up as assembled, or the trap defense will win more times than not because threes only go in about a third of games it seems. This is just one of those nights where the other team was hot and our defense leaves shooters too much room from distance. Letting them shoot 44 percent from distance is just unacceptable the way it happened.

MiaDragon
03-16-2012, 09:26 PM
Why can Frank not seem to make adjustments when things are obviously not working?

croz24
03-16-2012, 09:27 PM
Why can Frank not seem to make adjustments when things are obviously not working?

Because he's a motivational coach and really doesn't know much about X's and O's? We knew this when we hired him...

Cherokee
03-16-2012, 09:33 PM
This report just in from the Toronto airport: Leandro Barbosa has exchanged his ticket to Indianapolis for one to Brazil. Last heard yelling "I'd rather go home!"

Midcoasted
03-16-2012, 09:33 PM
Because he's a motivational coach and really doesn't know much about X's and O's? We knew this when we hired him...

I thought that is why we brought in the assistants for, but it seems maybe not. Frank is a good coach still learning. I always see him drawing up the plays, so maybe it's just our defensive trap scheme needs scrapped, or used more situationally? Sure it is flashy when it works and PG gets a wide open dunk because we trapped a guy and forced a bad pass and he jumps a lane, but I think we need to look at our defensive scheme and how to guard the long range jumpers and 3s more effectively. Also going for a lot of deflections is leaving people open. We just need to man up and grit it out and leave the glamor for when we have a comfortable lead.

odeez
03-16-2012, 09:34 PM
We simply can't guard the three point line effectively with whatever defense we have been running for the last umpteen years it seems. We need to have our guys go one on one more and guard the 3. Too often our guy is slacking looking for the double team and we get burnt on a rhythm three for it. It's actually sickening to see us get dominated from 3/long range 2s like this seemingly every loss.

I also agree that we need to implement a better form of the motion offense. When we succeed, we seem to pass the ball well without dribbling. When we lose, the other team does it well and lights us up from three because we are looking to trap on the double leaving a trailer running at the three point shooter that is already in rhythm. Our whole switch scheme seems to be off in these losses because like Brad8888 said, a quick pass beats a dribble.

How do we change it? I don't know, but I think more man defense schemes would be a start. I think we have the talent defensively to guard people straight up. I feel like you put Hibbert and Collison at a loss when they are trying to close after a failed trap because Hibbert just isn't quick enough and Collison just isn't long enough, and neither ever will be. They are much better guarding their man straight up then trying to close on a player after the trap.

I don't know how to fix it. Hopefully the coaches and the players do. Maybe the coaches feel our lineup as assembled can't guard people straight up as assembled, or the trap defense will win more times than not because threes only go in about a third of games it seems. This is just one of those nights where the other team was hot and our defense leaves shooters too much room from distance. Letting them shoot 44 percent from distance is just unacceptable the way it happened.

All that being said, we simply need to play with more intensity. The Knicks punched us right in the mouth and our team just didn't respond. To me that is why we lost the way we did. Your points are very valid, but I feel like it was a mental toughness thing tonight, and a physical one as well. I really don't think our team expected them to come out and play D the way they did. Their energy was too much and we just couldn't match it. Roy = Soft

I love him, but it is getting more and more clear to me that he is soft. Tyson looked like the All-Star tonight!

PR07
03-16-2012, 09:34 PM
Apparently, this game wasn't very winnable.

PGisthefuture
03-16-2012, 09:35 PM
Well the Thunder are getting blown out by the Spurs so I feel better about tonight...

Sookie
03-16-2012, 09:35 PM
Look, ups and downs happen for young teams. I know you guys think I'm overly positive, but I've just got a lot of patience. This team doesn't have the mental toughness/smarts ect..to show up every night. And although we have the talent when we play together to beat good teams. We can't take a night off without having a blow out. So Having a big win = get to cocky = get beat badly. It happens. At the end of the day, it's just a loss. If we win tomorrow, we went 1-1, which was what the expectations should have been.

That doesn't mean we don't have problems outside of mental breakdowns.

1. Defense. Wow. And it's not just DC guys. Our interior defense has been pathetic for weeks. And, IMO, that's why we continue to lose against good teams. (And we won last night because Lou was in the game for a while, our only decent PF defender. And, AJ, Dahntay, and GHill kept guys out of the paint.)

I don't know what's going on. Whether they are confused (Tyler), lazy and or physically too slow to do anything about it (West and Hibbert?) too pouty to contribute elsewhere (Hibbert?) bad defensive design - I doubt it though, but it may be too complicated for our young guys to get. (I doubt it again, my guess is we've pretty much been playing the same defense for a while.)

personally, I'm going with a combination of all the above. But the Pacers need to fix it.

2. Point guard. I've been a pretty strong advocate of Darren Collison, and I actually don't think he played bad today. And I think, with a young guys, you try and keep things as consistent as possible. BUT - I'm finally there. Start Price.

I don't care that he's shooting about 10%, he's been JOB deprogrammed enough to only shoot when he's open anyway. (And sometimes he doesn't even then.) With Hibbert, West, PG, and Granger, we shouldn't need the point guard to score anyway. What he does do, is run a team and offense well. Defend. Set up people in good positions to score. Make good decisions with the ball. (Price has had 0 turnovers in the past 7 of 8 games.) All things the starting lineup drastically needs. And all things DC doesn't do too well.

I've supported DC. I think he can be a good starting point guard for the right team. But he's struggling right now, and I feel like we're struggling on offense because of it. AJ's picked up the defense and the whole acting like a point guard thing.

You can't start Hill at point. He's not a point guard. He's even worse at doing the above than DC (other than defending). (We saw that a bit tonight.) He's so much more effective at shooting guard (particularly next to AJ.)

I know the likely result of the trade is that AJ goes back to the bench, and we run two shooting guards. It's the wrong decision. It's likely to hurt our bench offensively and defensively. (Because the fact that Hill's running the point means our bench goes back to having one passer, who isn't as good at the point position. And AJ's a better defender than Barbosa.) But I wouldn't know how to sort out the mess of a bench, because Barbosa is a good player, and should be playing. He's just not a point guard either.

3. Frank. I understand he's growing and learning too, but he needs to take control. Get organized, get these guys to fight for loose balls and execute. Good luck...

4. Danny and DWest. When we were struggling before, I've brought this up. I don't have an issue with any of our young players for not showing up for games like this. (Well I do. I just don't think it's unexpected or cause for alarm.)

I do have an issue with these two forgetting to show up. They need to be our leaders and they need to set the tone. And in reality, they have just as many breakdowns as any of the younger guys. That's inexcusable. That's cause for whining.

5. PG and Roy. Our playoffs hope depend on these two. Part of the reason I want AJ to start is I think he can help Roy on the offensive end. I'm not worried about PG, he just had a meh game, and he's been playing well. But Roy's been struggling. And it's just s much mental as it is physical. He's capable of playing better than this and he needs to. Period.

but I'll still be patient. He's still a young player and he's had a very good year. He's just struggling right now.

Pacerfan
03-16-2012, 09:42 PM
It seems like our defense fell off after our initial good stretch to start the season (ending with the Dallas win) and has never came back. Rotations have been off, guys don't know where they are supposed to be, and individual defense has fell off. The offense is part of the problem, but we were still winning games at the beginning of the season with poor offense.

So what can be done? Guys need to take care of the individual defense first and foremost. The interior guys need to be there if a guy gets past the perimeter. THe interior guys should not give up layups. The perimeter guys need to take care of their man and if the guys gets past them they need to force him to where the interior defender is. This is very elementary stuff, but they are not doing what needs to be done on the defensive end. They will not get very far if they don't shore up the defense soon. I love Frank, but he needs to take some responsibility for this too. I know practice time is very limited but something needs to be done.

Hibbert
03-16-2012, 09:45 PM
When Vogel had a Q and A a few months ago after we signed David West one thing he said really stuck out to me. He was talking about West and the Pacers offense and said that the offense we ran is so simple that a 5 year old could learn it. If it's that easy Frank and your even advertising it as such than don't you think everyone else is going to pick up on it as well? Especially the good teams and that's been the case. The problem is our coach while everyone else is busy blaming everyone else. Im sure he's a great guy but he's not a great coach and has been severely overrated here so far. Yeah, smashmouth, step on their throats, etc. it all SOUNDS good but thats all it is.....noise. Don't be surprised if Frank doesn't finish out his contract here.

tflo
03-16-2012, 09:46 PM
Right of the bat it was obvious what Frank game plan was tonight, At the start of the
game just fed it to Hibbert every play and try to get him in the game, I think it back fired on him. The Hibbert tonight is not the same Hibbert we had the start of the year. It completely threw our offense off and we could never get it started again.I think we are at our best when our offense flows naturally.

TheDavisBrothers
03-16-2012, 09:56 PM
When Vogel had a Q and A a few months ago after we signed David West one thing he said really stuck out to me. He was talking about West and the Pacers offense and said that the offense we ran is so simple that a 5 year old could learn it. If it's that easy Frank and your even advertising it as such than don't you think everyone else is going to pick up on it as well? Especially the good teams and that's been the case. The problem is our coach while everyone else is busy blaming everyone else. Im sure he's a great guy but he's not a great coach and has been severely overrated here so far. Yeah, smashmouth, step on their throats, etc. it all SOUNDS good but thats all it is.....noise. Don't be surprised if Frank doesn't finish out his contract here.


Because he's a motivational coach and really doesn't know much about X's and O's? We knew this when we hired him...

I gotta kinda agree with these. I love his passion and personality. The fact that he's a player's coach is great, that's half the battle, but I don't think he is much of a game manager...

BobbyMac
03-16-2012, 09:58 PM
Tomorrow is another day!

vnzla81
03-16-2012, 09:59 PM
Trailblazers beat Chicago today, good that we beat them before they fired their coach :-o

PGisthefuture
03-16-2012, 10:00 PM
When Vogel had a Q and A a few months ago after we signed David West one thing he said really stuck out to me. He was talking about West and the Pacers offense and said that the offense we ran is so simple that a 5 year old could learn it. If it's that easy Frank and your even advertising it as such than don't you think everyone else is going to pick up on it as well? Especially the good teams and that's been the case. The problem is our coach while everyone else is busy blaming everyone else. Im sure he's a great guy but he's not a great coach and has been severely overrated here so far. Yeah, smashmouth, step on their throats, etc. it all SOUNDS good but thats all it is.....noise. Don't be surprised if Frank doesn't finish out his contract here.

While I wouldn't go that extreme I kinda agree with you. I have questioned Vogel's rotations and the fact that he takes out guys that are hot. He puts guys in at the same time every game no matter what. I don't understand why Paul George has seen so few minutes the last few games either. I like the fact that he wants to be smashmouth and all, but we haven't been that at all recently except for maybe against a struggling Portland. I really want to see Vogel yell at a guy when we are losing, I want to see him get mad and fiery, heck I wouldn't mind seeing him throw something at this point. He needs to pull a Rick Carlisle every once in awhile and get kicked out of the game to get his team fired up. I want to see the offense just a tad bit more complicated so LeBron doesn't learn all our plays after the first quarter. I know Vogel will never be nearly as bad as O'Brien, but he definitely has some flaws and I don't think our struggles are all his fault either. In order for this team to get better, changes in the system need to be made both offensively and defensively.

vnzla81
03-16-2012, 10:00 PM
Tomorrow is another day!

Yep and the day after that one would also be another day....

Dr. Hibbert
03-16-2012, 10:12 PM
Maybe Bird should start requiring complete mental evaluation for anybody coming to the team. Pacers need their own traveling psychologist with this team. Can't count on hardly anybody to show up every night.

That should include Vogel. Just saying.

BlueNGold
03-16-2012, 10:14 PM
Trailblazers beat Chicago today, good that we beat them before they fired their coach :-o

It's pretty sad that guys making millions can't give 100% effort when people with much less money are forking out a lot to see them play a game. It was painfully obvious Portland didn't try to win that game in Indy.

Kemo
03-16-2012, 10:18 PM
I have stuck with DC through thick and thin... almost to a fault....

BUT I am just now to the point, that I don't even wanna see him on the floor to be honest...


I think it is time to stick him in the 2nd unit.. and promote AJ to the starting pg ..

IMO, the offense starts with your point guard...

When AJ is running the team, everyone plays better.... But as soon as DC is back out there, it all stagnates... the offense, the passing especially...... everything it seems...




When DC is playing the pg position like CRAP , the whole team suffers badly...

It doesn't matter if he is hitting his shots and putting up 15 or 20 points.. because his floor general skills, quite frankly have sucked a donkeys a double s for quite awhile now .....



It seems like over the last month or so, our ball movement gets stagnant more often times than not... I think part of it is, he is not executing plays correctly, does not know how to pass to a teammate on a fastbreak, and his court vision is amysmal and he is CONSTANTLY missing open looks, cutting players .. you name it .. he doesn't see it ..



Tonight was a perfect example ...

Now this is just my own theory , but I honestly believe that the majority of the team would much rather play with AJ as the floor general...
I think they have lost trust in DC.


I honestly don't know what is goin on with this team.... but I honestly believe it all starts with DC ...

Fix the pg problem, and let AJ get the starters minutes, and I can almost guarantee we would see a major turnaround .. like night and day with this team...


Sorry Darren , but I am at the end of my rope and a change needs made if it is gonna continue like this...
I can't take this crap anymore.. ARGH!!!!!!!! *pulls hair out*

.
.

Eleazar
03-16-2012, 10:19 PM
Vogel certainly does has flaws, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt right now because he is a rookie. He has shown improvement with the rotations (see the other day when Price and Hill both played starters minutes for reasons other than a blow out), but I agree he is too strict. I am worried about the X and O part, maybe it needs to be more like when Bird was coach where he did most of the managing of players, while Carlisle focused on the X's and O's. I do think we will see an improved Vogel next year with a summer of studying this past season.

vnzla81
03-16-2012, 10:20 PM
It's pretty sad that guys making millions can't give 100% effort when people with much less money are forking out a lot to see them play a game. It was painfully obvious Portland didn't try to win that game in Indy.

Yep and was even worse at the NY game.

Sookie
03-16-2012, 10:24 PM
Vogel certainly does has flaws, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt right now because he is a rookie. He has shown improvement with the rotations (see the other day when Price and Hill both played starters minutes for reasons other than a blow out), but I agree he is too strict. I am worried about the X and O part, maybe it needs to be more like when Bird was coach where he did most of the managing of players, while Carlisle focused on the X's and O's. I do think we will see an improved Vogel next year with a summer of studying this past season.

I'm not worried about that at all actually.

For a while, we'd have really good third quarters, which is a sign of a good x's and o's coach. He often times learns from other teams, and implements that into our offense.

his issue, IMO (and why he's kept the offense so simple) he just hasn't had time to implement and practice an offense.

And right now, despite the fact that we all know Vogel is a really good motivator, he's having some "emotional" issues with a few members of the team. (once again, typical for young guys.)

The egg timer rotations, um..it's just a coach theory. I'm not that crazy about it, but I understand it, particularly with a young team. It's supposed to be a stability thing. But I certainly see (and when I've coached I've done it this way) simply going with the guys who are playing well.

BlueNGold
03-16-2012, 10:24 PM
I don't know if the problem lies with DC or Hibbert. But it's not the other guys on the team. Paul and Danny are playing good ball out there. George Hill is solid as a rock. David West would probably play better with better ball movement...and that starts with DC and should involve Hibbert with an inside-out game. So, against good front lines and PG's, the Pacers are going to struggle.

joeyd
03-16-2012, 10:24 PM
6th seed. Expect that. and you will feel better. If they end up higher, you will feel even better, but don't expect it.

Still don't understand how the all-star break represented the beginning of this Jeckyll and Hyde thing with our team. Teams making adjustments to us just can't explain it all. Maybe other teams are getting better over time...but we are not?

Hoop
03-16-2012, 10:26 PM
I think it is silly to blame Vogel. He has provided much needed stability, he doesn't change lineups at every whim, like you know who.

Doesn't unexplainably bench a player that has just had a series of good games.

His rotations make sense 99% most of the time. If something doesn't work, it just didn't work, a least some logic was probably behind it.

He doesn't make WTF substitutions that nobody can even fathom why.

He has stuck with the same lineup the entire season, only made rotational changes when he has had to because of injuries or for solid basketball reasons.

I believe he is doing what's best for long term. When he feels it's time to make a change in the staring lineup, he will, and it'll be the right time.

Mr_Smith
03-16-2012, 10:27 PM
So much for this team not winning against teams with winning records.....they can't beat a team with a losing record.

BlueNGold
03-16-2012, 10:28 PM
Maybe other teams are getting better over time...but we are not?

Some of this. Teams improve by operating more efficiently. While your offense is not being initiated well by the PG...and when the PG is unable to stop the point of attack on D...it's hard to improve your flow.

Combine that with a soft C who has shaky (or no) confidence and you are done.

PGisthefuture
03-16-2012, 10:28 PM
6th seed. Expect that. and you will feel better. If they end up higher, you will feel even better, but don't expect it.

Still don't understand how the all-star break represented the beginning of this Jeckyll and Hyde thing with our team. Teams making adjustments to us just can't explain it all. Maybe other teams are getting better over time...but we are not?

Yeah I'm having a hard time understanding it as well. Like I stated before, our system needs to be changed both offensively and defensively so it's not so simple. Also keep a guy in if he's hot with a sprinkle of getting Paul George more minutes. This weird stretch has reminded me of when we struggled against teams like Toronto and Minnesota last year, but this time it's better teams. I guess that's one positive to take from it.

PGisthefuture
03-16-2012, 10:31 PM
I think it is silly to blame Vogel. He has provided much needed stability, he doesn't change lineups at every whim, like you know who.

Doesn't unexplainably bench a player that has just had a series of good games.

His rotations make sense 99% most of the time. If something doesn't work, it just didn't work, a least some logic was probably behind it.

He doesn't make WTF substitutions that nobody can even fathom why.

He has stuck with the same lineup the entire season, only made rotational changes when he has had to because of injuries or for solid basketball reasons.

I believe he is doing what's best for long term. When he feels it's time to make a change in the staring lineup, he will, and it'll be the right time.

You have to question some of the things he does, I still like him as a coach though.

Peck
03-16-2012, 10:50 PM
http://media.makeadare.com/img/c6936c017/image_8b5a12e8fd.jpg

joeyd
03-16-2012, 11:00 PM
Yeah I'm having a hard time understanding it as well. Like I stated before, our system needs to be changed both offensively and defensively so it's not so simple. Also keep a guy in if he's hot with a sprinkle of getting Paul George more minutes. This weird stretch has reminded me of when we struggled against teams like Toronto and Minnesota last year, but this time it's better teams. I guess that's one positive to take from it.

I think it's true that there are many positives. Just harder to keep them in view after a loss like this where everyone is questioning the effort.

Based on talent at the beginning of the year, when I saw this home-and-home with the Knicks, I did not expect to win both games. As of this morning I did not expect to win both games especially with the coaching change and instant morale boost these moves sometimes bring. I will be disappointed after a loss tomorrow, but the Knicks are not as bad as their record would indicate, so nothing would surprise me.

An avatar change is the only thing that can bring me comfort tonight. Goodbye Dr. Zaius!

vnzla81
03-16-2012, 11:04 PM
http://media.makeadare.com/img/c6936c017/image_8b5a12e8fd.jpg

Hahaha :laugh:

CJ Jones
03-16-2012, 11:32 PM
The game was terrible, but we did get a good laugh when Danny tried showing off his handles against Amare... four between the leg dribbles, then a right handed drive into charge :D. Classic. My brother was calling out all of Danny's terrible fast break shots long before he'd even shoot em. He'd say... "he's shooting watch" and every time Danny through up some crap. It was ugly for everyone though (accept maybe Hill), I'm not trying to single him out as the only player that looked bad.

I think they'll come back and get tomorrow night's game. I hope they use Paul more. He barely touched the ball tonight, and half his shots he had to force.

Hicks
03-16-2012, 11:37 PM
You know what? This is one of those games that I'm just going to pretend never happened. **** it. I'm just going to forget about it.

Suaveness
03-16-2012, 11:40 PM
It'll be hard to forget if they do the same thing tomorrow.

Hicks
03-16-2012, 11:43 PM
It'll be hard to forget if they do the same thing tomorrow.

I'm just not going to go there until if or when that becomes reality. In the meantime, I'm going to assume tomorrow will be a much better effort. That doesn't mean that I necessarily think we're going to win, but I think if these guys have any pride at all, they'll come out with a much better effort, win or lose.

By the way, if I heard correctly tonight, it sounds like Leandro Barbosa might actually play tomorrow night. At least that would be something interesting to look for.

D-BONE
03-17-2012, 07:53 AM
Yes please let Barbosa play tonight. (Heard he'd miss first two.) I need to see a fresh face out there. Barbosa, Hill, Lou. Can we just play those three? They're the only ones who's play of late doesn't make me want to puke. Throw Tyler & Dahntay out there. At least you know they'll play hard.

McKeyFan
03-17-2012, 07:59 AM
Hibbert is single handedly lowering his own stock for this off season.
I agree. But I'm not sure there's another way for him to do it.

McKeyFan
03-17-2012, 08:20 AM
I rarely criticize Vogel and like him for our coach. I did give him heck for pulling West in the last 2 minutes of a game earlier in the year.

Last night, another real criticism. We are down nearly 20 with five minutes or so left in the first quarter. The game is nearly out of reach. We are desperate to get George Hill in the game.

The buzzer sounds. Yes. It's substitution time! Into the game walks . . . Dahntay Jones.

By the time Hill got in, we were down 25 or so, and the game was pretty much out of reach.

Somebody explain THAT to me.

ksuttonjr76
03-17-2012, 08:38 AM
3. Frank. I understand he's growing and learning too, but he needs to take control. Get organized, get these guys to fight for loose balls and execute. Good luck...

FWIW...from reading Mike Wells' twitter comments and articles my impression of Frank seems to be that he's more of "screaming" coach than JOB when the team is doing horrible during a game. The only difference is that Vogel's disappointment comes from the mindeset of "We're :censored: better than this! Play up to your damn potential.".

Based on that, I really blame these losses on the players. Minus a few questionable late game rotations, Vogel seems to make adjustments on the fly pretty well, takes timeouts when appropriate, and stay with the hot players. There have been only a handful of times where I screamed at my TV "Take a timeout!".

ksuttonjr76
03-17-2012, 08:42 AM
When Vogel had a Q and A a few months ago after we signed David West one thing he said really stuck out to me. He was talking about West and the Pacers offense and said that the offense we ran is so simple that a 5 year old could learn it. If it's that easy Frank and your even advertising it as such than don't you think everyone else is going to pick up on it as well? Especially the good teams and that's been the case. The problem is our coach while everyone else is busy blaming everyone else. Im sure he's a great guy but he's not a great coach and has been severely overrated here so far. Yeah, smashmouth, step on their throats, etc. it all SOUNDS good but thats all it is.....noise. Don't be surprised if Frank doesn't finish out his contract here.

I'm going to keep this fair though. Vogel hasn't had the advantage of training camp yet. For a rookie coach with NO HEAD COACHING EXPERIENCE AT ANY LEVEL and coming off a NBA lockout, I've been mostly impressed by him thus far.

ksuttonjr76
03-17-2012, 08:55 AM
I have stuck with DC through thick and thin... almost to a fault....

BUT I am just now to the point, that I don't even wanna see him on the floor to be honest...


I think it is time to stick him in the 2nd unit.. and promote AJ to the starting pg ..

IMO, the offense starts with your point guard...

When AJ is running the team, everyone plays better.... But as soon as DC is back out there, it all stagnates... the offense, the passing especially...... everything it seems...




When DC is playing the pg position like CRAP , the whole team suffers badly...

It doesn't matter if he is hitting his shots and putting up 15 or 20 points.. because his floor general skills, quite frankly have sucked a donkeys a double s for quite awhile now .....



It seems like over the last month or so, our ball movement gets stagnant more often times than not... I think part of it is, he is not executing plays correctly, does not know how to pass to a teammate on a fastbreak, and his court vision is amysmal and he is CONSTANTLY missing open looks, cutting players .. you name it .. he doesn't see it ..



Tonight was a perfect example ...

Now this is just my own theory , but I honestly believe that the majority of the team would much rather play with AJ as the floor general...
I think they have lost trust in DC.


I honestly don't know what is goin on with this team.... but I honestly believe it all starts with DC ...

Fix the pg problem, and let AJ get the starters minutes, and I can almost guarantee we would see a major turnaround .. like night and day with this team...


Sorry Darren , but I am at the end of my rope and a change needs made if it is gonna continue like this...
I can't take this crap anymore.. ARGH!!!!!!!! *pulls hair out*

.
.

Personally, I don't care who starts at PG. I would be just as happy with Lance Stephenson. The BIGGEST problem that I have with Darren is that he seems scare to pass the ball sometimes, because he's overthinking the situation. Price is more of "pure" PG while Stephenson has that "Jeremy Lin" type passing potential. To explain, Stephenson lets the passes fly no matter how risky they are. So, Stephenson could break the record for the most assists in one game, then break the record for the most turnovers in the same week.

Sparhawk
03-17-2012, 09:24 AM
FWIW...from reading Mike Wells' twitter comments and articles my impression of Frank seems to be that he's more of "screaming" coach than JOB when the team is doing horrible during a game. The only difference is that Vogel's disappointment comes from the mindeset of "We're :censored: better than this! Play up to your damn potential.".

Based on that, I really blame these losses on the players. Minus a few questionable late game rotations, Vogel seems to make adjustments on the fly pretty well, takes timeouts when appropriate, and stay with the hot players. There have been only a handful of times where I screamed at my TV "Take a timeout!".

I'll disagree with you there. Vogel always waits to call a timeout when the other teams has already made there run and a 15 point lead is gone. I don't think he calls timeouts at the best of times.

However, most of it is on the players. The starters should be well rested. Just no excuses. The bench has outplayed them 3 straight games!! Again, no excuses.

I'm tired of hearing from West and Granger. "We didn't match their intensity tonight", "We have got to play better", "We have to share the ball more"

Then ****ing do it! Why aren't you matching their intensity? Why aren't you playing better, sharing the ball more? It's just talking, but not actually doing.

Sparhawk
03-17-2012, 09:28 AM
And I'll say once again, I know they'll lose games. But when the Pacers lose, they always seem to get blown out.

I don't know how they do that?

I also don't know where the find consistency, but that seems to be the Pacer's issue every year. A lot of players in the league, you know what to expect. You can't even guess who's going to show up for the Pacers on a given night. Is that on the coaches or players? I have no clue, but I wish they'd be more consistent.

I will give them credit, cause they have improved in close games. So there's that.

ksuttonjr76
03-17-2012, 09:47 AM
And I'll say once again, I know they'll lose games. But when the Pacers lose, they always seem to get blown out.

I don't know how they do that?

I also don't know where the find consistency, but that seems to be the Pacer's issue every year. A lot of players in the league, you know what to expect. You can't even guess who's going to show up for the Pacers on a given night. Is that on the coaches or players? I have no clue, but I wish they'd be more consistent.

I will give them credit, cause they have improved in close games. So there's that.

True. However, it does make the "Guess Pacers' Top Scorer" game that much more fun :).

Hibbert
03-17-2012, 09:57 AM
Barbosa will not play tonight against the Knicks.

Sollozzo
03-17-2012, 10:04 AM
You know what? This is one of those games that I'm just going to pretend never happened. **** it. I'm just going to forget about it.


It will be easy to forget about IF they win tonight. I think most were expecting that we'd split with them this weekend. But if we lose tonight too then I'll be concerned and won't be able to sweep them under the rug.

Hicks
03-17-2012, 10:29 AM
Barbosa will not play tonight against the Knicks.

I would have been kind of surprised if he had played. Looking forward to Tuesday.

Sookie
03-17-2012, 11:44 AM
FWIW...from reading Mike Wells' twitter comments and articles my impression of Frank seems to be that he's more of "screaming" coach than JOB when the team is doing horrible during a game. The only difference is that Vogel's disappointment comes from the mindeset of "We're :censored: better than this! Play up to your damn potential.".

Based on that, I really blame these losses on the players. Minus a few questionable late game rotations, Vogel seems to make adjustments on the fly pretty well, takes timeouts when appropriate, and stay with the hot players. There have been only a handful of times where I screamed at my TV "Take a timeout!".

I agree completely. Vogel's biggest struggle is rotations. And quite frankly, he's never been in a position where he could learn what good ones are. That's what I think his biggest learning curve will be.