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View Full Version : Vogel, Paul George and the Pacers 15th ranked offense



mattie
03-13-2012, 03:20 AM
Excluding our defensive woes which have been a problem the last 15 games or so, offense has been a problem all season. So why hasn't Frank made much needed adjustments to help this team score?

To me the problems are blatantly obvious, and though it is not a common complaint around here I'd be shocked to find I'm the only one who sees this.

Our best facilitator and one on one scorer is the fifth option on offense. If Frank doesn't see this as an issue and he refuses to make PG an option this team will continue to struggle.

Please tell me if I'm wrong with any of the following statements:

(please note I don't have statistics or game tape so obviously I could be way off. I wanted to break down an entire game play by play to demonstrate my point, but haven't had the opportunity- my roommate wouldn't like me using up the DVR with my nerdy obsession with basketball)

*Paul George is the best at running the PnR on this team.
*PG is really the only one on the team with the ability to make the good entry passes to Roy in the post, effectively giving him the ball right where he needs it
*PG is the most unselfish player in the starting lineup
*PG has the highest TS% of all starters
*PG is the most skilled at creating his own shot in one on one situations

If all those statements are true, (and I openly admit, I could be watching with blinders on who knows) then why isn't Frank "calling Paul's number" as he repeatedly says after every game? Frank has openly admitted multiple times this season he just does not call plays for PG.

The odd part, is we've also seen many times this season in crunch time situations Frank either A. have Paul George run a PnR, whether that be with West or Roy or B. call an isolation for PG. If he's either your best, or one of the best options in a crunch time situation, then why on earth isn't he the best option through out the game? Am I the only one who sees this?

EDIT- http://somebasketballthings.wordpress.com/2012/03/11/lebron-james-answers-his-critics-with-help-from-chris-bosh/#more-266

In that link you'll see the two late plays the Pacers used. Both were almost identical. One was the PG/West PnR. The other was a DC/West PnR. Neither scored points. The one with PG seemed to have a great chance to either get West a shot, or rotate the ball to an open man, but West lost the ball. On the other play of course we all remember DC losing the ball.

I won't even argue that PG needs to have more shots (though I do personally believe this is the case) but at the very least the ball needs to be run through him each and every time down the court. When PG gets the ball, he finds the open man, he runs what at least appears to be a very effective PnR, and lastly he seems to be the only one on the team that can actually make an entry pass into the post. I'm at a loss, as to why this man is the fifth option, stuck waiting for the ball to swing around after one more failed DC PnR.

I no longer believe this to be a case of PG being timid either. I don't think I need to pull up the quotes. Frank Vogel has repeatedly said he is not calling plays for PG. It's not happening. That's my question to you. Why? What's going through Vogel's head?

Please tell me I'm wrong, because I've felt I've taken crazy pills all season. This is not a knee jerk reaction to PG scoring 22 points the other night either. I've seen it all season. It seems good things happen when the ball is in PG's hand. On the other hand, our number one option is, to say as nice as possible, having an underwhelming effect on the offensive side of the court.

Even if I am some how wrong, and PG shouldn't be getting the ball more, what do the Pacers have to lose? Granger's TS% is 51%. That is not good. Somehow I find it hard to believe that Granger is a better option on offense.

I know PG has a long way to go in developing into a strong scorer on a nightly basis. This is undeniable. However, I'm not comparing PG's scoring ability to Kobe Bryant. I'm not making a case that he is or isn't a future star, or big time scorer. This is merely my season long observation of the Pacers current weapons on offense.

I'm watching the Pacers and right now, and I haven't seen anyone on this team that looks like they can score better than PG. The shooting percentages may back me up on that. Of course PG could be an example of low usage, high efficiency which could mean if he had a bigger role on offense, we'd see his shooting percentages drop. I don't think that is the case though. I think he's being underutilized.

I hope someone has answer as this has confused me all season.

Foul on Smits
03-13-2012, 03:51 AM
Paul George has been wayyyy more involved since the All Star break. He's played great, but I think there is/will be some growing pains trying to get George more involved . The ball just doesn't get moved around much with him, Danny and Roy. I honestly think now would be the time to trade Danny. He's done nothing wrong, but with Paul starting to insert himself more, we could probably flip Danny and something else, for a strong point guard who gets the rock moving.

mattie
03-13-2012, 04:03 AM
Paul George has been wayyyy more involved since the All Star break. He's played great, but I think there is/will be some growing pains trying to get George more involved . The ball just doesn't get moved around much with him, Danny and Roy. I honestly think now would be the time to trade Danny. He's done nothing wrong, but with Paul starting to insert himself more, we could probably flip Danny and something else, for a strong point guard who gets the rock moving.

That's what tends to be my issue.

Seems that every time up the court without fail, DC should be bringing up the ball and passing to Paul George so he can initiate offense. I think his role should be similar to other guards like Harden, and Ginobili who tend to help create a lot of offense for their team.

This may really help DC as well. He really plays great off the ball. Why isn't the offense playing into each and every guys strength?

Eleazar
03-13-2012, 04:09 AM
The only thing I disagree with is the ability to create his own shot 1v1. Collison and Price are both equally as good or better than he is. When it comes to taking a guy 1v1 I don't believe there is a guy on this team as good at it as Collison.

Foul on Smits
03-13-2012, 04:16 AM
The only thing I disagree with is the ability to create his own shot 1v1. Collison and Price are both equally as good or better than he is. When it comes to taking a guy 1v1 I don't believe there is a guy on this team as good at it as Collison.

I disagree. I think Paul is so lengthy and take such long strides, his 1v1 is very hard to defend. The Heat and Magic were running double teams at the perimeter just to get the ball out of his hands. If he can develope a euro step, look the f out.

Kemo
03-13-2012, 04:27 AM
Here's a novel idea out of way left-field.....

How about experimenting with Paul George playing point ?

After all , Magic Johnson was a 6"9 point guard .. Shaun Livingston is 6"7 , Lebron at 6"8 can, and has played point ...

George has shown that he can keep up with and guard most point guards ... a'la D.Rose ..

It's something to ponder at the very least anyways ...
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mattie
03-13-2012, 04:31 AM
The only thing I disagree with is the ability to create his own shot 1v1. Collison and Price are both equally as good or better than he is. When it comes to taking a guy 1v1 I don't believe there is a guy on this team as good at it as Collison.

If what you're saying is the case (and a good point too, DC can def. create for himself) I STILL think we need to get the ball to PG. He can still run the PnR. DC has never been good in the PnR, (68.4 PPP in New Orleans) and never will be (72PPP last year).

DC would be great playing off the ball the majority of the plays, which would play into his strengths. Once the ball begins to rotate DC has the opportunity to either take a nice spot up three, or aggressively attack the rotating defense.

This also plays into Danny Grangers strength. As of Feb. 7th, http://www.indycornrows.com/2012/2/7/2736126/the-pacers-pick-and-roll-and-other-difficult-truths Danny's effective FG% is 49% if you exclude isolations and PnR situations.

Danny isn't good at isolations. He isn't good in PnR situations. He's a very good spot up shooter. Shouldn't we be looking to give the ball to Danny in those situations?

I'll make the unproven assertion that if the Pacers gave the ball to PG at the top of the key the majority of the game, we'd see the efficiency of almost all our players go up. Danny should be playing off the ball. Paul should not. DC should be playing off the ball, PG should not.

Foul on Smits
03-13-2012, 04:32 AM
He couldn't keep up with D Wade. He has major issues chasing guys through screens or defending guys in a motion type offense.

mattie
03-13-2012, 04:36 AM
Here's a novel idea out of way left-field.....

How about experimenting with Paul George playing point ?

After all , Magic Johnson was a 6"9 point guard .. Shaun Livingston is 6"7 , Lebron at 6"8 can, and has played point ...

George has shown that he can keep up with and guard most point guards ... a'la D.Rose ..

It's something to ponder at the very least anyways ...
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I think that is sort of what I'm saying. It's more along the lines of what to a lesser extent I've hinted at, and something Hicks constantly says on this board.

You don't have to have a strong point guard to run an effective offense. I don't think PG can bring the ball up and play PG 35 minutes a night. I do think that you can have DC bring the ball, hand the ball off to PG to initiate offense though. It's not really that uncommon for offenses to do this either.

Ginobili and Hill used to have a similar relationship on the court together in S.A.

Fisher and Odom used to do this to some extent in LA as well. That's sort of what I'm getting at.

I guess what I'm saying is it'd be a failure to think PG could run point in a completely traditional sense, but to always have initiate the offense in some way I think would work. Of course this would mean someone would have to get him the ball towards the top of the key or the wing, which would be much different than the way guys like CP3 and Deron Williams run point.

yoadknux
03-13-2012, 06:08 AM
He's not exactly the 5th option. George gets 10.1 FGA/G, Roy gets 10.7, West 11, Collison 9.3. So he's basically 4th option and gets 1 shot attempt less than the 2nd option.
He's also extremely active on defense and puts a lot of effort at everything. I don't think he should have to help carry our offensive burden as well. (Granger obviously can't do it when shooting 39% from the field)
He's not a playmaker though. He's not a good ball handler and I think his passing is somewhat overrated here

bellisimo
03-13-2012, 06:50 AM
PG still has sloppy handles to even consider him to play as point...

his dribble makes me as nervous as Artest used to do with his dribbling back in the days

Sparhawk
03-13-2012, 07:55 AM
Now if only Lance could work out. Nice tall lineup.

Unclebuck
03-13-2012, 08:02 AM
I had a post yesterday discussing the offensive woes, but after I wrote it my conclusion was that the problem is the point guard position. That seemed like a no-brainer and obvious, so I didn't post it.

Pacers are last in FG shooting % and that is a very important stat - the top 4 NBA teams are in the top 5 of FG shooting % currently.

My point was PG and DG's biggest offensive weaknesses is ballhandling, so we need a very good playmaking point guard and we don't have anything close to that. Also we are a terrible passing team. Our three best passers are our starting center, starting power forward and 4th string point guard/3rd string shooting guard.

The only time the Pacers beat an average or better than average team is when their defense is great, anytime their defense is a little bit off the pacers get blown out by the good teams, so if the pacers are a little tired a little bit off defensively they get killed. Their offense rarely if ever wins them games (against the average to good teams.

BRushWithDeath
03-13-2012, 08:58 AM
Pacers are last in FG shooting % and that is a very important stat - the top 4 NBA teams are in the top 5 of FG shooting % currently.

They are also dead last in assists per game. This is a team who doesn't have a single decent isolation scorer yet they aren't passing for buckets. When you've got a bunch of poor 1 on 1 players trying to go 1 on 1, your field goal percentage will suffer.

The key to having a solid offense when you don't have any good individual scorers, and the Pacers do not, is good ball movement. And ball movement has been mostly nonexistent this season.

Of course, this also comes back to the point guard. Until that problem is corrected, the team as it is composed right now won't ever be a good offensive club.

Eleazar
03-13-2012, 12:37 PM
I disagree. I think Paul is so lengthy and take such long strides, his 1v1 is very hard to defend. The Heat and Magic were running double teams at the perimeter just to get the ball out of his hands. If he can develope a euro step, look the f out.

I don't disagree that he is difficult to guard, I just don't think his ball handling is to the point where he should be considered a better 1v1 player than Collison or Price.


If what you're saying is the case (and a good point too, DC can def. create for himself) I STILL think we need to get the ball to PG. He can still run the PnR. DC has never been good in the PnR, (68.4 PPP in New Orleans) and never will be (72PPP last year).

DC would be great playing off the ball the majority of the plays, which would play into his strengths. Once the ball begins to rotate DC has the opportunity to either take a nice spot up three, or aggressively attack the rotating defense.

This also plays into Danny Grangers strength. As of Feb. 7th, http://www.indycornrows.com/2012/2/7/2736126/the-pacers-pick-and-roll-and-other-difficult-truths Danny's effective FG% is 49% if you exclude isolations and PnR situations.

Danny isn't good at isolations. He isn't good in PnR situations. He's a very good spot up shooter. Shouldn't we be looking to give the ball to Danny in those situations?

I'll make the unproven assertion that if the Pacers gave the ball to PG at the top of the key the majority of the game, we'd see the efficiency of almost all our players go up. Danny should be playing off the ball. Paul should not. DC should be playing off the ball, PG should not.

I agree.