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vnzla81
03-11-2012, 08:10 PM
:jumpout: :suicide2:

TheDavisBrothers
03-11-2012, 08:11 PM
even tho I've been trying very hard to hold back my disappointment and frustration, this game has really started to derail my faith in this team...

Il Ragionier Ugo Fantozzi
03-11-2012, 08:13 PM
D for effort
D for intent
D because you pay the rent

D for love
D for insight
D because you're heaven sent

I want you to need me - not to feed me
I want you to need me - not to feed me

D for dishes
F for floors
Can't make the grade anymore

D for love
D for intent
D because you pay the rent

You kick my head
Lying on your ten - your ten foot bed
You say you're all alone, that's just 'cause, you don't want anybody home
See a smile, make it sad
Take it all so bad.

Mourning
03-11-2012, 08:15 PM
:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke: :uhoh:

Pacerfan
03-11-2012, 08:17 PM
This team is so mentally weak :(

Shade
03-11-2012, 08:19 PM
Paul George: A
Everyone else: F-

joew8302
03-11-2012, 08:19 PM
No one wants to hear this but it was a schedule loss. We were both physically and mentally fatigued after last night and we ran into a good team on their home court. I am not overly surprised.

Mr_Smith
03-11-2012, 08:19 PM
There goes the 4 game skid that I called out a long time ago, not surprised here.

immortality
03-11-2012, 08:20 PM
More sighs. I thought after that 2nd quarter run, we might come out strong, but nope. George and Granger looked good, but everyone else bad. I am going to blame a lot of this on Vogel, he couldn't figure out a defensive scheme to prevent Orlando from getting so many open looks on the perimeter.

Our rebounding still sucks.

rock747
03-11-2012, 08:24 PM
I still think we need a point guard.

vnzla81
03-11-2012, 08:24 PM
No one wants to hear this but it was a schedule loss. We were both physically and mentally fatigued after last night and we ran into a good team on their home court. I am not overly surprised.

Here we go again............................................. ...............:rolleyes:

Lance George
03-11-2012, 08:24 PM
Roy Hibbert's Week-By-Week Market Value:

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6445/hibbert.jpg

At the rate he's going, he'll have to pay us to re-sign him in the offseason.

joew8302
03-11-2012, 08:26 PM
Here we go again............................................. ...............:rolleyes:

Yeah, I know. Reality can be a bummer. Once people realize we are a good, not great team they will be able to accept reality and realize things like this happen on the road against better teams.

The Sacramento loss was deflating.
This loss was expected.

Big difference.

Aw Heck
03-11-2012, 08:27 PM
I can only hope that the Pacers play better from here on out. Otherwise we're looking at another first round exit.

This Pacers team just isn't talented enough to contend. I think what we see right now is what we're going to get. Paul George will hopefully continue to improve, but I don't see him ever being a perennial All-Star.

Performances like this aren't going to shake off the apathy of the casual fans.

vnzla81
03-11-2012, 08:28 PM
Yeah, I know. Reality can be a bummer. Once people realize we are a good, not great team they will be able to accept reality and realize things like this happen on the road against better teams.

The Sacramento loss was deflating.
This loss was expected.

Big difference.

Reality :lol:

rock747
03-11-2012, 08:30 PM
It also doesn't help that George Hill never plays...

righteouscool
03-11-2012, 08:30 PM
Paul George will hopefully continue to improve, but I don't see him ever being a perennial All-Star.


I really disagree with you on that. George has been the best pacer since the all star break and he's a 21 year old. He's gonna be amazing in 3 years.

Everyone else... trade them for Rondo please.

BlueNGold
03-11-2012, 08:34 PM
It also doesn't help that George Hill never plays...

Didn't he complain about Indy? Maybe he doesn't want to be here.

Aw Heck
03-11-2012, 08:35 PM
I really disagree with you on that. George has been the best pacer since the all star break and he's a 21 year old. He's gonna be amazing in 3 years.

Everyone else... trade them for Rondo please.
I don't deny that he's played well. I just don't see him making multiple All-Star games in the future.

I'm not down on the guy. This is only his second season and he's played very well.

doctor-h
03-11-2012, 08:36 PM
even tho I've been trying very hard to hold back my disappointment and frustration, this game has really started to derail my faith in this team...

What took so long. Its not like this hasn't happened before. Mentally weak, low basketball IQ, not professional enough. Very weak at the key positions. They were being laughed at out there and nobody had the guts to do anything about it but Hansbrough. Hibbert has turned into a liability, he has to be the softest 7' 2" center I have seen in awhile.

cdash
03-11-2012, 08:38 PM
Roy can't maintain a high level of play all season. He pulled this **** last year. I'm very nervous about overpaying a guy like that.

MiaDragon
03-11-2012, 08:38 PM
Yeah, I know. Reality can be a bummer. Once people realize we are a good, not great team they will be able to accept reality and realize things like this happen on the road against better teams.

The Sacramento loss was deflating.
This loss was expected.

Big difference.

http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/197270-1/Asian-wtf-reaction-face.gif

doctor-h
03-11-2012, 08:39 PM
Didn't he complain about Indy? Maybe he doesn't want to be here.

I wonder the same thing. Whether he truly wants to be here. I see none of the leadership qualities we were told he had. I see no enthusiasm. He for the most part has been very disappointing.

MiaDragon
03-11-2012, 08:40 PM
Didn't he complain about Indy? Maybe he doesn't want to be here.

not a great way to head into FA, looking soft and disinterested.

CableKC
03-11-2012, 08:40 PM
I watched part of the game here and there...saw that we were down by double digits and didn't even bother watching the rest of the game. We are not built to beat the Magic or compete aagainst the top teams.

Aw Heck
03-11-2012, 08:41 PM
Roy can't maintain a high level of play all season. He pulled this **** last year. I'm very nervous about overpaying a guy like that.
Yep. Unfortunately, he's going to get $10M plus. It's either that or no center. All we can hope for is that he learns how to play consistently for a full season.

BringJackBack
03-11-2012, 08:42 PM
Roy can't maintain a high level of play all season. He pulled this **** last year. I'm very nervous about overpaying a guy like that.

Yep... And I feel like we aren't going to do anything about it and keep him around. He looks like he'd be nice to include in a package for an impact guy...

Nuntius
03-11-2012, 08:42 PM
Yeah, I know. Reality can be a bummer. Once people realize we are a good, not great team they will be able to accept reality and realize things like this happen on the road against better teams.

The Sacramento loss was deflating.
This loss was expected.

Big difference.

I agree with what you say but that does not change the fact that this loss made most of us feel sad.

Not that it changes how anyone feels about the team. I still have faith in them. But I'm sad :(

Pacer Fan
03-11-2012, 08:42 PM
Is Roy on drugs? I mean what is he doing out there. I know he doesn't know, this is obvious.

I have been one of very few that thanks Roy is gonna be way overpaid this summer and have been wanting to see him traded to prevent the future bleeding. Then he actually started playing well and become an All-Star by default in a huge way which gave me further concern of him getting overpaid. Now, since the Break he has been horrific. I so much want to see him traded if we can't get him signed for under 8mil. I don't want a Okafor or a Biedrins bad contract in Roy. We just got out of contract hell!

And no, I am not overreacting cause of this bad loss. This is what I have thought since the beginning of the season and it is just becoming clearer all the time.

Doddage
03-11-2012, 08:43 PM
This team really needs someone who will hold everyone's asses accountable, each and every night.

Nuntius
03-11-2012, 08:44 PM
They were being laughed at out there and nobody had the guts to do anything about it but Hansbrough and Lou.

Fixed.

vnzla81
03-11-2012, 08:45 PM
Roy can't maintain a high level of play all season. He pulled this **** last year. I'm very nervous about overpaying a guy like that.

Like I posted on the gamethread if we can flip Roy+tyler+ Picks for Rondo we should do it, NO is giving away two centers pretty much for free anyway.

rock747
03-11-2012, 08:50 PM
This team really needs someone who will hold everyone's asses accountable, each and every night.

Damnit, and I thought that's what we were getting in Lou Amundson.

MiaDragon
03-11-2012, 08:52 PM
Damnit, and I thought that's what we were getting in Dwest.

fyp

BlueNGold
03-11-2012, 08:53 PM
I like Paul as much as anyone, but most real superstars are playing better than he is after two years in the league. Here are a few examples in their second years:

LeBron James 27ppg
Dwayne Wade 24ppg
Paul Pierce 19.6ppg
Ray Allen 19.5ppg
Reggie Miller 16ppg
Luol Deng 15.4ppg
Danny Granger 14.8ppg
Paul George 12.2ppg

Notice that Danny and Luol Deng are very good players, but clearly a notch below the great ones.

BTW, Paul Pierce was averaging nearly 17ppg as a rookie. LeBron was well over 20ppg. Ray Allen as a rookie was at 13.4ppg. Deng was at 15.4ppg as a 19 year old rookie. All of their numbers beat Paul's second year. For sure, Paul has my support but he most definitely needs to be Granger level on offense next year or he's not getting to where I think many people expect.

Sookie
03-11-2012, 08:54 PM
Ugh..I was going to do a long post.

Let me just say, although this game isn't a shock. There's some serious defensive executions our team needs to talk about and fix.

Our entire team needs to apologize to PG for their play.

Roy..WTF happened to you?

Danny, if one more player executes a backdoor cut...

Dahntay..were you seriously chewing out Lou and Lance? Seriously? You wanna be a leader, why not hold Danny accountable. Or I'm going to change your name from Kobe Jones to Dahntay Brown.

DC, I'm trying like heck to stick up for him. I don't think he's this bad. But he's just struggling in all areas right now.

Tyler. I'm not fooled by this game.

Lou, deserves more minutes. But doesn't have to shoot the ball so much.

AJ...make a freaking jump shot. It's flat. Put some lift in it. And stop pouting about it.

West..um..stop sucking on offense..and defense. I can excuse Tyler's stupidity on defense. I'm struggling to do that with West.

Lance..I think Vogel owes him an apology for having him try and guard JJ. (At least they made the switch.) Other than that, at least he showed up with some energy.

vnzla81
03-11-2012, 08:54 PM
I like Paul as much as anyone, but most real superstars are playing better than he is after two years in the league. Here are a few examples in their second years:

LeBron James 27ppg
Dwayne Wade 24ppg
Paul Pierce 19.6ppg
Ray Allen 19.5ppg
Reggie Miller 16ppg
Luol Deng 15.4ppg
Danny Granger 14.8ppg
Paul George 12.2ppg

Notice that Danny and Luol Deng are very good players, but clearly a notch below the great ones.

BTW, Paul Pierce was averaging nearly 17ppg as a rookie. LeBron was well over 20ppg. Ray Allen as a rookie was at 13.4ppg. Deng was at 15.4ppg as a 19 year old rookie. All of their numbers beat Paul's second year. For sure, Paul has my support but he most definitely needs to be Granger level on offense next year or he's not getting to where I think many people expect.

Paul George is 21 years old.

JEM
03-11-2012, 08:55 PM
Paul George: A
Everyone else: F-

Yea.. Lets give PG an A even though he got lit up by Redick. Steals do not = defense.

BlueNGold
03-11-2012, 08:56 PM
Paul George is 21 years old.

Deng was 19 and more effective. LeBron was younger too. Kobe was better and younger. Paul has a lot to prove. Again, I support him but next year is a huuuge key for his future. He has to surpass Granger next year or he will never surpass him.

TheDavisBrothers
03-11-2012, 08:56 PM
I think Paul is gonna be an All Star for sure, but he's not gonna be a superstar...

doctor-h
03-11-2012, 08:57 PM
Fixed.

What the heck does fixed even mean in this context. If you need to say something say it.

BlueNGold
03-11-2012, 08:59 PM
I think Paul is gonna be an All Star for sure, but he's not gonna be a superstar...

I can agree with that. He is likely to make the all-star team, but people have been comparing him to Durant and other superstars. It's time to wake-up.

Sookie
03-11-2012, 08:59 PM
Deng was 19 and more effective. LeBron was younger too. Kobe was better and younger. Paul has a lot to prove. Again, I support him but next year is a huuuge key for his future. He has to surpass Granger next year or he will never surpass him.

But PG is simply less developed.

Didn't he only start playing organized basketball in high school?

He's extremely talented, but raw.

Also, I agree with what was said about his defense though. It wasn't fantastic, though it improved after JJ's initial kill. PG does struggle around screens. (But part of that is Roy and West's fault..who have a tendency to create a double screen for our guards to try and get around..)

Aw Heck
03-11-2012, 09:00 PM
I like Paul George. I really do. But I'm with BlueNGold.

I think Paul could make an All-Star team here or there. But he won't make it regularly. I see him about the same level as Granger or Luol Deng. Which isn't bad.

But if I had the opportunity to include him in a trade for a superstar, I would pull the trigger without hesitation. He's the Pacers' most valuable trading piece for sure, but he's not untouchable.

Nuntius
03-11-2012, 09:02 PM
Tyler. I'm not fooled by this game.


:laugh:

BlueNGold
03-11-2012, 09:03 PM
FWIW, Durant was only 20 and he was averaging over 25ppg. Paul is a nice player but he will have to blow up to get to the level I think we all wish he'd get to. He has my confidence through this year and into next. One year from now, I think we'll know what we have.

McKeyFan
03-11-2012, 09:05 PM
LeBron James 27ppg
Dwayne Wade 24ppg
Paul Pierce 19.6ppg
Ray Allen 19.5ppg
Reggie Miller 16ppg
Luol Deng 15.4ppg
Danny Granger 14.8ppg


PG is a better defender than everyone on that list not named Lebron.

He is a better passer than most of them.

While he may not make every All-Star game, he is going to be one heck of a well-rounded player. Artest in his prime without the crazies.

Nuntius
03-11-2012, 09:06 PM
What the heck does fixed even mean in this context. If you need to say something say it.

I just added Lou. It was more of an addendum than a fix per se. No need to get worked up about it.

Sorry for the bad wording, I guess.

presto123
03-11-2012, 09:06 PM
I think Paul is gonna be an All Star for sure, but he's not gonna be a superstar...


A lot of being a superstar is between the ears. I'm not sure Paul is ever going to have that all out confidence and killer instinct. I know one thing. He better work hard on his ball handling. It's hard to drive around somebody if you can't get a handle on the ball.

Deadshot
03-11-2012, 09:07 PM
What took so long. Its not like this hasn't happened before. Mentally weak, low basketball IQ, not professional enough. Very weak at the key positions. They were being laughed at out there and nobody had the guts to do anything about it but Hansbrough. Hibbert has turned into a liability, he has to be the softest 7' 2" center I have seen in awhile.

I missed the game because of a meeting at work. Can someone elaborate on this part please?

TheDavisBrothers
03-11-2012, 09:10 PM
I see Paul as a combo of Granger's shooting with Igoudala's athletic ability and all around game

Pacer Fan
03-11-2012, 09:11 PM
Not trying to defend Paul here, but He is in a different system then almost all the ones that have been mentioned. James is on his own planet. Deng doesn't have shooters around him. The rest of them came in on very poor teams and was the focal point. Paul has to get his shots by comity, Danny, West, Hibbert and yes Collison also shoots the ball. If Paul was on a team that didn't have anyone worth while then the ball would go through Paul and he would be getting his numbers way up. That isn't the case here. To bad for him!

Ace E.Anderson
03-11-2012, 09:11 PM
Deng was 19 and more effective. LeBron was younger too. Kobe was better and younger. Paul has a lot to prove. Again, I support him but next year is a huuuge key for his future. He has to surpass Granger next year or he will never surpass him.

I think He'll be better than Granger, but not quite the level of a superstar. Though they're completely different players, I could see George on the same level as Josh Smith/Rudy Gay. Really good (above Deng/granger/igudola) but not Lebron or Durant.

BlueNGold
03-11-2012, 09:12 PM
PG is a better defender than everyone on that list not named Lebron.

He is a better passer than most of them.

While he may not make every All-Star game, he is going to be one heck of a well-rounded player. Artest in his prime without the crazies.

That's true, although Deng is very good defensively.

While defense is something I love in a player, I am talking about superstar capabilities in terms of getting your shot off whenever you want it...and consistently hitting difficult shots...and delivering in crunch time. Being aggressive enough at the right level to get it done.

Again, I like Paul and agree he is more well rounded than Miller and Allen in particular, but does he have IT? I do think being a consistently explosive scorer such that your ppg is high...is a prerequisite.

Let's see if he can start consistently delivering in the 20's next year...

presto123
03-11-2012, 09:16 PM
That's true, although Deng is very good defensively.

While defense is something I love in a player, I am talking about superstar capabilities in terms of getting your shot off whenever you want it...and consistently hitting difficult shots...and delivering in crunch time. Being aggressive enough at the right level to get it done.

Again, I like Paul and agree he is more well rounded than Miller and Allen in particular, but does he have IT? I do think being a consistently explosive scorer such that your ppg is high...is a prerequisite.

Let's see if he can start consistently delivering in the 20's next year...


No. Paul will never be a #1 superstar guy. I think he will be a #2 type of player which is basically what we've had from Granger all these years. The Pacers desperately need a #1 type of player that you can always depend on for scoring and who can always get their own shot.

Justin Tyme
03-11-2012, 09:16 PM
Hibbert 2 rebs! 1 each half. 30 min PT, 7'2", and an Allstar... how pathetic.

BlueNGold
03-11-2012, 09:16 PM
A lot of being a superstar is between the ears. I'm not sure Paul is ever going to have that all out confidence and killer instinct. I know one thing. He better work hard on his ball handling. It's hard to drive around somebody if you can't get a handle on the ball.

Yes, this is part of what I'm talking about. Killer instinct. I think he's generally pretty confident but how bad does he want to win? I like his length on defense and his athleticism...but I wonder just how good of a basketball player he's going to be. He does have good awareness. The tools are there.

Tell you what. I'm having Brandon Rush flashbacks because he had pretty decent potential too on some of the same categories. Paul better capitalize on his potential better than that....and yes Paul has more potential.

McKeyFan
03-11-2012, 09:18 PM
That's true, although Deng is very good defensively.

While defense is something I love in a player, I am talking about superstar capabilities in terms of getting your shot off whenever you want it...and consistently hitting difficult shots...and delivering in crunch time. Being aggressive enough at the right level to get it done.

Again, I like Paul and agree he is more well rounded than Miller and Allen in particular, but does he have IT? I do think being a consistently explosive scorer such that your ppg is high...is a prerequisite.

Let's see if he can start consistently delivering in the 20's next year...

Deng doesn't demand a double team. Artist did back in the day, or he just destroyed his defender in the low post. PG will demand one, I believe, in the near future.

No, he may not be a great, consistent scorer like the ones you mentioned, but his all around versatility will make him a great player. Maybe Pippin is a good comparison.

presto123
03-11-2012, 09:18 PM
Hibbert 2 rebs! 1 each half. 30 min PT, 7'2", and an Allstar... how pathetic.

If we had Rondo on this team he would be out rebounding Hibbert every game.:eek:

Ace E.Anderson
03-11-2012, 09:19 PM
Yes, this is part of what I'm talking about. Killer instinct. I think he's generally pretty confident but how bad does he want to win? I like his length on defense and his athleticism...but I wonder just how good of a basketball player he's going to be. He does have good awareness. The tools are there.

Tell you what. I'm having Brandon Rush flashbacks because he had pretty decent potential too on some of the same categories. Paul better capitalize on his potential better than that....and yes Paul has more potential.

Paul is already better than Rush, ESP when it comes to getting his own shot. Hell Paul may be better than Granger at getting his own shot lol.

TheDavisBrothers
03-11-2012, 09:22 PM
I think He'll be better than Granger, but not quite the level of a superstar. Though they're completely different players, I could see George on the same level as Josh Smith/Rudy Gay. Really good (above Deng/granger/igudola) but not Lebron or Durant.

I wouldn't really consider Smith and Gay above Deng, Granger and Iguodala but for the most part I agree. I think he's gonna be slightly better then all 5 but odviously no Durant

BringJackBack
03-11-2012, 09:24 PM
I don't follow the model that in order to be a superstar you have to average over 15 ppg after your first season. First of all, George could, but he's on a well rounded team, and second of all these guys aren't robots. There's a reason why the scout said that IN FIVE YEARS he could be the best player in the draft class. The question you have to ask when wondering how good a guy can be are: how good is he between the years, how good are his athletic and scoring abilities, how is his defense, and what situation is he in. I don't follow the model that he has to be compared to tw greatest players is our decade. How many players have averaged over 15ppg in their second season and haven't done crap in the NBA? Paul George has the shooting ability to be an elite shooter, he has elite athletic ability, elite defense, and he can in flashes create off the dribble. He will peak in seven years, and until then he will continue to improve. Who is to say that he can't be a star?

xBulletproof
03-11-2012, 09:26 PM
Are we really doubting how good Paul George can be? You can name off all the guys you want, the circumstances are different. I mean really, Steve Nash averaged 9 points and 3 assists per game his 2nd year and he was 23. In fact he was 26 years old before he ever averaged double digit points. Guess we would be arguing how he could never became a perennial All Star either. Forget being an MVP. No way he will ever sniff the Hall of Fame either. :shrug:

Lance George
03-11-2012, 09:27 PM
I like Paul as much as anyone, but most real superstars are playing better than he is after two years in the league. Here are a few examples in their second years:

LeBron James 27ppg
Dwayne Wade 24ppg
Paul Pierce 19.6ppg
Ray Allen 19.5ppg
Reggie Miller 16ppg
Luol Deng 15.4ppg
Danny Granger 14.8ppg
Paul George 12.2ppg

Notice that Danny and Luol Deng are very good players, but clearly a notch below the great ones.

BTW, Paul Pierce was averaging nearly 17ppg as a rookie. LeBron was well over 20ppg. Ray Allen as a rookie was at 13.4ppg. Deng was at 15.4ppg as a 19 year old rookie. All of their numbers beat Paul's second year. For sure, Paul has my support but he most definitely needs to be Granger level on offense next year or he's not getting to where I think many people expect.

Those players were all hurried into roles as top (or near top) scoring options, usually on bad teams. We've taken George along more slowly, on -- and probably because we're -- a winning team. You can't expect a guy to put up big scoring numbers when he's not given the opportunities to put up big scoring numbers.

Combined FG/FT Attempts Per-Game
LeBron James: 29.1
Dwyane Wade: 27.0
Paul Pierce: 21.3
Ray Allen: 20.8
Reggie Miller: 15.8
Luol Deng: 15.7
Danny Granger: 14.5
Paul George: 12.5

Some players who were taken along more slowly...

Tracy McGrady: 9.3 ppg
Manu Ginobili: 12.8 ppg
Kevin Love: 14.0 ppg (currently the NBA's fourth leading scorer)
Kobe Bryant: 15.4 ppg
Kevin Garnett: 17.0 ppg
Clyde Drexler: 17.2 ppg
Dirk Nowitzki: 17.5 ppg

Jermaine O'Neal didn't break double-figures in scoring until his fifth season, his first in Indy. Why? Because he wasn't given the opportunities (minutes, shot attempts) to do so before then.

Edit: I should point out the above data is all second-season data.

Aw Heck
03-11-2012, 09:28 PM
Are we really doubting how good Paul George can be? You can name off all the guys you want, the circumstances are different. I mean really, Steve Nash averaged 9 points and 3 assists per game his 2nd year and he was 23. In fact he was 26 years old before he ever averaged double digit points. Guess we would be arguing how he could never became a perennial All Star either. Forget being an MVP. No way he will ever sniff the Hall of Fame either. :shrug:
Paul George is not Steve Nash. Not saying he couldn't do what Nash did. It's possible.

For every Steve Nash there are about 30 Deng/Granger/Gay types and about 50 Derrick McKeys.

Ace E.Anderson
03-11-2012, 09:31 PM
I wouldn't really consider Smith and Gay above Deng, Granger and Iguodala but for the most part I agree. I think he's gonna be slightly better then all 5 but odviously no Durant

I know these are just opinions, but you really don't think Josh Smith is better than those 3 players??

BringJackBack
03-11-2012, 09:32 PM
Paul George is not Steve Nash. Not saying he couldn't do what Nash did. It's possible.

For every Steve Nash there are about 30 Deng/Granger/Gay types and about 50 Derrick McKeys.

No. There is one Luol Deng, one Danny Granger, and one Rudy Gay. There is one Derrick McKey. That's the point that xBulletproof and I are trying to make; they are humans, not machines or robots... They don't all follow the same path, and the stipulations that are being made here towards being a star are silly.

Aw Heck
03-11-2012, 09:36 PM
No. There is one Luol Deng, one Danny Granger, and one Rudy Gay. There is one Derrick McKey. That's the point that xBulletproof and I are trying to make; they are humans, not machines or robots... They don't all follow the same path, and the stipulations that are being made here towards being a star are silly.
Okay. I was referring more to player archetypes. Let me rephrase.

For every "guy who starts his career with bench player level stats then goes onto have a Hall of Fame career" there are 30 "guys who improve bit-by-bit each year until they plateau at a near-All Star level" and about 50 "guys who seemingly have all the tools to be amazing players but we just keep waiting and waiting and waiting for him to put it all together."

BringJackBack
03-11-2012, 09:37 PM
What you have to ask of someone in order for them to be a star are:

What are they capable of with their shooting? Paul George is an above 40% shooter.
Does anything limit them with the ball in their hands? Not with George.
Does this player play defense at the same intensity as offense? Paul does.
Is the player an elite athlete? Paul George is.
Does the player have any major limitations? Paul George does not.
Does the player have any major strengths? Paul George is a 6'10" shooting guard.
Is the player a headcase? Paul George is not.
Does the player have that killer instinct? We don't know yet with George, but I'm leaning towards no.

He will be 28 in seven years, and that is when he will peak. He has seven years to improve, and there is nothing that can stop him from improving. Again, who is to say that he can't become a star?

MTM
03-11-2012, 09:39 PM
I am most disappointed in this allegedly smash mouth team showing that they don't always have a fight in them

Speed
03-11-2012, 09:42 PM
He has to surpass Granger next year or he will never surpass him.

What?

TheDavisBrothers
03-11-2012, 09:54 PM
I know these are just opinions, but you really don't think Josh Smith is better than those 3 players??

Granger prob isnt better anymore but was a superior scorer
Deng does everything that Smith does, but on a better team
Iggy does everything that Smith does and is a very good passer

What about Smith makes him better? He gets more rebounds, but he is also a PF not a SF, the others rebound their position just as well. He gets rediculous steal and block #'s, but last time I checked, that doesn't automatically make you a great defender, Amare put up really good stl/blk #'s too, and he blows at D...

vnzla81
03-11-2012, 09:54 PM
Good job guys in derailing the thread so we don't have to think about the lost.

Sparhawk
03-11-2012, 10:07 PM
PG showed up and no one else did. Just really sad that our veterans aren't playing better.

If NOH is even remotely serious about giving up a lottery pick to get rid of Okafor, the Pacers have to try and pull this off even if we had to give our first back to NOH.

PR07
03-11-2012, 10:11 PM
Our frontcourt has to be better. David West, 2 points 3 boards? Are we saving you for the playoffs or something? Hibbert having the same amount of rebounds as AJ Price? Meanwhile DH12 has another monster game. This team has to get more consistent if they want to get elite, nothing new.

BlueNGold
03-11-2012, 10:20 PM
Good job guys in derailing the thread so we don't have to think about the lost.

I have to admit I knew that would force some discussion. I didn't intend to derail the thread though. I really did want to dwell on this loss...;)

Kemo
03-11-2012, 10:36 PM
FWIW, Durant was only 20 and he was averaging over 25ppg. Paul is a nice player but he will have to blow up to get to the level I think we all wish he'd get to. He has my confidence through this year and into next. One year from now, I think we'll know what we have.

And Durant & Lebron were both top 2 draft picks ... both were touted as being leaps and bounds better than pretty much anyone else in their respective draft classes..

AND

BOTH Durant & Lebron were handed the keys to their teams the minute the first put on their jerseys and stepped out on the court in their first NBA game...


In comparing situations , you are comparing apples to cucumbers here ...


Paul George, from the get-go , it was known by most all draft talent evaluators, that it would take around 4 years for him to blossom...

Alot of those same people also said he would probably be considered the steal of the draft, that his potential was off the charts ...

Some players are late bloomers... George has shown that he is well on his way to reaching his potential , it's just gonna take a little bit of time .... But IMO that potential's ceiling is that of a franchise /elite level type of player...


.

BlueNGold
03-11-2012, 10:40 PM
I like how well all of you are protecting him. Pacer fever is still alive and well after this beating.

BTW, I am a big Paul George fan...just challenging the subject a little...

Hicks
03-11-2012, 10:59 PM
I'm not going to confuse the team (and many of its players) not being where I WANT them to be with having a ****** team with ****** players.

We're a mid-seed playoff team. Mid-seed playoff teams are like this. They're better than .500, but not consistent enough to be a win-factory like Miami and Chicago, either.

We've been in much, much worse situations the past 5 years, so I'm not really sweating it. Don't like moments like these, but whatever.

Either we're going to have to add more proven veterans to the team, or some of our young players are going to have to grow up. If neither one happens, we've hit our ceiling.

For this year, that may well be the case. For next year, we'll just have to wait and see.

xIndyFan
03-11-2012, 10:59 PM
What you have to ask of someone in order for them to be a star are: . . .

not disagreeing with you,

maybe it's something like this. be able to defend, or rebound, or pass at a high level AND score 1500 points a season. 1200 in a 66 game season.

a star does more than one thing well, while maintaining the ability to score night in and night out. anyone can score 20 points in a game. almost anyone can score 100 points in 5 games or 300 points in a month. but producing game in, game out. that is what you have to ask a player to be a star.

DGPR
03-11-2012, 11:38 PM
I just hope Larry isn't thinking this is where he wants the team to be right now and he's not looking to make any moves before the deadline. There are things that can still be improved and it should probably start with the back court with the exception of Paul George who is the most untouchable player on this team right now.

rock747
03-12-2012, 12:01 AM
Paul George is playing good and just had a good game and this thread is so down on him. Why?

TheDavisBrothers
03-12-2012, 12:09 AM
Paul George is playing good and just had a good game and this thread is so down on him. Why?

Nobody is down on him, we just think the expectations for him on this board are a little to lofty

Hibbert
03-12-2012, 12:21 AM
Mike Wells ‏ @MikeWellsNBA

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I'm apologizing now, but there will be ALOT of D West quotes tomorrow. I haven't heard a Pacer be this honest and blunt in years.

Hibbert
03-12-2012, 12:32 AM
Mike Wells
Also In Indiana Pacers

David West says what people are starting to think about the Pacers and their record this season. "We beat up on bad teams, but just can’t compete against the good teams. Games we’ve had against playoff caliber teams, we’ve lost to them. That’s the measure to where we are. We just have to be real about it."

Hibbert
03-12-2012, 12:32 AM
Mike Wells
Also In Indiana Pacers

More David West on their identity: "We have to decide what type of team we want to be. If we want to be an average team that can beat the bad teams and teams that have already cashed it in for the season or you want to be able to compete with the top six teams in the Eastern Conference."

rock747
03-12-2012, 12:36 AM
Looks like indy sports radio could be an interesting listen tommorow...

Peck
03-12-2012, 12:38 AM
I'm not even bothering tonight.

I'll just add this, we are still holding 5th due to Atlanta having lost one more game than us so we have a .005% lead over them. We are currently 2.5 games ahead of Boston for 7th & we hold a pretty comfortable lead of 6 games over the 8th place Knicks and 7 games over both the Bucks & Cavs. for the eigth and final spot.

So 7th is really about the lowest I can see us going right now, although 8th is not totally out of the question.

Orlando is now 2.5 games ahead of us but with the tie breaker (they won the season series) that really makes them 3.5 games ahead of us. Obviously the 76ers will hold one of the top 4 spots so right now I think the highest we are going to get to is 5th. So if we can hold onto 5 that would put us against Philly which would be the one team I would want to match up with. Dropping down to 6 or lower puts us against the Magic, Bulls or Heat.

Eleazar
03-12-2012, 02:56 AM
I just hope Larry isn't thinking this is where he wants the team to be right now and he's not looking to make any moves before the deadline. There are things that can still be improved and it should probably start with the back court with the exception of Paul George who is the most untouchable player on this team right now.

It is highly unlikely any trade will happen in the middle of the season. Generally speaking you don't want to make a trade mid-season unless it is a no brainer, or just shuffling of role players.

Bball
03-12-2012, 03:22 AM
“We came out tonight flat and didn’t play well, didn’t play together,” West said. “We got blown out the gym. That doesn’t happen to good teams, either.”

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2012/03/12/not-a-memorable-visit-to-the-home-of-mickey-mouse-for-the-pacers/

Pacersalltheway10
03-12-2012, 07:17 AM
I can't be on here anymore. Pessimistic people just **** me off.

Pacers13Colts12
03-12-2012, 08:45 AM
I like West, don't get me wrong, but he hasn't really played all that great the past few games. I'd understand his quotes more if he played great.

righteouscool
03-12-2012, 09:46 AM
That's true, although Deng is very good defensively.

While defense is something I love in a player, I am talking about superstar capabilities in terms of getting your shot off whenever you want it...and consistently hitting difficult shots...and delivering in crunch time. Being aggressive enough at the right level to get it done.

Again, I like Paul and agree he is more well rounded than Miller and Allen in particular, but does he have IT? I do think being a consistently explosive scorer such that your ppg is high...is a prerequisite.

Let's see if he can start consistently delivering in the 20's next year...

Paul is always going to get his shot off. Did you see that baseline long 2 he shot over 2 defenders? It was an awful shot but he nailed it like it was nothing.

It's those plays that make you think he's well on his way to being unstoppable on offense.

ksuttonjr76
03-12-2012, 11:58 AM
Paul George is playing good and just had a good game and this thread is so down on him. Why?

I was thinking the same thing! After what I saw in the Orlando game, I want Vogel to shift the offense, so George is the #1 scoring option...followed by Granger, West, Hibbert, and Collison.

I believe that we might bringing George along TOO slowly.

MyFavMartin
03-12-2012, 12:13 PM
Other teams' announcers mention "future All-Star Paul George". That's a better endorsement than this board.

Hicks
03-12-2012, 12:17 PM
Yeah, if anything last night's game encouraged my feelings about Paul George.

BRushWithDeath
03-12-2012, 01:45 PM
Yeah, if anything last night's game encouraged my feelings about Paul George.

No question. I actually made the comment to my brother during the game that if it weren't for Paul, I'd have stopped watching at halftime. Other than Hansbrough hitting some garbage time shots, which is somewhat encouraging I suppose, Paul was the only positive from last night.

I've had significantly lower expectations on Paul's offensive game than most here. But his post up game could be a huge weapon in the future and last night was the first time I've seen it be very successful. Granted, most SGs in the league are bigger than J.J. Redick but it's little pieces of growth like this that make you so intrigued.

ksuttonjr76
03-12-2012, 02:04 PM
No question. I actually made the comment to my brother during the game that if it weren't for Paul, I'd have stopped watching at halftime. Other than Hansbrough hitting some garbage time shots, which is somewhat encouraging I suppose, Paul was the only positive from last night.

I've had significantly lower expectations on Paul's offensive game than most here. But his post up game could be a huge weapon in the future and last night was the first time I've seen it be very successful. Granted, most SGs in the league are bigger than J.J. Redick but it's little pieces of growth like this that make you so intrigued.

100% agree. That was the only reason why I was watching the game. Paul George's postup move caught me by surprise too. I was watching the game just to see what else he can do.

Unclebuck
03-12-2012, 03:37 PM
Looks like indy sports radio could be an interesting listen tommorow...


why? I mean sure if you want to hear about where Manning is going or the NCAA tournament. But the Pacers really won't be discussed at any length at all.

Unclebuck
03-12-2012, 03:42 PM
I like Paul as much as anyone, but most real superstars are playing better than he is after two years in the league. Here are a few examples in their second years:

LeBron James 27ppg
Dwayne Wade 24ppg
Paul Pierce 19.6ppg
Ray Allen 19.5ppg
Reggie Miller 16ppg
Luol Deng 15.4ppg
Danny Granger 14.8ppg
Paul George 12.2ppg

Notice that Danny and Luol Deng are very good players, but clearly a notch below the great ones.

BTW, Paul Pierce was averaging nearly 17ppg as a rookie. LeBron was well over 20ppg. Ray Allen as a rookie was at 13.4ppg. Deng was at 15.4ppg as a 19 year old rookie. All of their numbers beat Paul's second year. For sure, Paul has my support but he most definitely needs to be Granger level on offense next year or he's not getting to where I think many people expect.


I don't know of anyone who has suggested that Paul George is going to be a superstar, but then my definition of superstar is perhaps different. Right now there are probably 3 or 4 superstars in the NBA., Kobe, Lebron, Durrant, and maybe Howard. Pierce IMO has never at any time ever been a superstar, nor was Reggie a superstar.

So no, paul George will never be a superstar. But he'll be a star. Superstar is one of the top 3 or 4 players in the NBA, a star is a top 10-15 player in the NBA.

Of course that is just my breakdowns

Peck
03-12-2012, 04:38 PM
I don't know of anyone who has suggested that Paul George is going to be a superstar, but then my definition of superstar is perhaps different. Right now there are probably 3 or 4 superstars in the NBA., Kobe, Lebron, Durrant, and maybe Howard. Pierce IMO has never at any time ever been a superstar, nor was Reggie a superstar.

So no, paul George will never be a superstar. But he'll be a star. Superstar is one of the top 3 or 4 players in the NBA, a star is a top 10-15 player in the NBA.

Of course that is just my breakdowns

Agreed, however I would definately put Dwight Howard in the superstar bracket without reservation.

AesopRockOn
03-12-2012, 04:48 PM
No DRose? Really?

Peck
03-12-2012, 04:49 PM
No DRose? Really?

Good point.

Ace E.Anderson
03-12-2012, 04:50 PM
I was thinking the same thing! After what I saw in the Orlando game, I want Vogel to shift the offense, so George is the #1 scoring option...followed by Granger, West, Hibbert, and Collison.

I believe that we might bringing George along TOO slowly.

It's funny that you said that..Our offense seems to really lack any type of focus a lot of the time, especially early in the game. I wonder how much freedom PG has to to "go get his".

Part of what helps a great scorer get into a groove, is the freedom of knowing that if you miss a shot or two, you won't be coming out.

I'm not advocating that we allow George to just do what he wishes, but if we're going to lack any type of focus on offense, why not let the kid try and get it going early on? ESPECIALLY when we're in transition/semi-break situations. Idk, just a thought

(We also have to consider that he was going up against the physically over-matched J.J. Redick. lol)

MiaDragon
03-12-2012, 06:18 PM
It's funny that you said that..Our offense seems to really lack any type of focus a lot of the time, especially early in the game. I wonder how much freedom PG has to to "go get his".

Part of what helps a great scorer get into a groove, is the freedom of knowing that if you miss a shot or two, you won't be coming out.

I'm not advocating that we allow George to just do what he wishes, but if we're going to lack any type of focus on offense, why not let the kid try and get it going early on? ESPECIALLY when we're in transition/semi-break situations. Idk, just a thought

(We also have to consider that he was going up against the physically over-matched J.J. Redick. lol)

I think this is key, Id love to see him as the number one scoring option but Im afraid he will go back to the 3rd or 4th next game.

vnzla81
03-12-2012, 06:57 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/powerrankings/_/year/2012/week/11


11
Indiana
23-16
5
Last Week: 6 The Pacers want us to believe they're a serious dark horse to do some playoff damage, but they haven't backed it up yet in the games that matter most. With three days to focus on Friday night's showdown in Miami, Indy still couldn't avoid late mistakes in the most crushing L of a challenging week.

Unclebuck
03-12-2012, 08:36 PM
No DRose? Really?

My bad, yes Rose for sure.

McKeyFan
03-12-2012, 09:43 PM
Interesting. Every position was named for superstar except the 4. (Assuming Lebron and Durant are 3's).

When trying to name the top five of all time, the 4 spot is also the toughest to name. (To me, anyway.)