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View Full Version : Granger's deserves some blame



doctor-h
03-11-2012, 11:08 AM
Why on earth would Granger sag to the middle to help out on a drive and leave James wide open for a three with the Pacers up 3 with 11 seconds left. These kind of stupid plays from what many think is our leader are inexcusable. For god sake, THINK.

Pacers24Colts12
03-11-2012, 11:15 AM
I would rather have Granger sag and force Wade to kick it out, then have Wade drive and probably either draw the foul or hit the shot. LeBron isn't known for three point shooting, and has been horrible in crunch time. Too many weapons I suppose.

Pacer Fan
03-11-2012, 11:21 AM
Why on earth would Granger sag to the middle to help out on a drive and leave James wide open for a three with the Pacers up 3 with 11 seconds left. These kind of stupid plays from what many think is our leader are inexcusable. For god sake, THINK.

If that is all you got, I guess Pacers had themselves a pretty good game!

IUfan4life
03-11-2012, 11:24 AM
You mean the guy that Lebron couldn't score on for the vast majority of the game? You mean the only guy that could score down the stretch?

Good teams make good plays.

ksuttonjr76
03-11-2012, 11:50 AM
It was a mental mistake, or maybe he got up in all the "Lebron is not 4th quarter clutch" hype. Until that shot, Indiana did one h*ll of a job running the 3PT shooters off the line.

croz24
03-11-2012, 11:53 AM
I would rather have Granger sag and force Wade to kick it out, then have Wade drive and probably either draw the foul or hit the shot. LeBron isn't known for three point shooting, and has been horrible in crunch time. Too many weapons I suppose.

When you're up 3, you let them have the 2 if it comes down to it than allowing a guy a wide open 3. Just common basketball sense.

doctor-h
03-11-2012, 12:04 PM
It was a mental mistake, or maybe he got up in all the "Lebron is not 4th quarter clutch" hype. Until that shot, Indiana did one h*ll of a job running the 3PT shooters off the line.

Maybe they did but Miami has not even relied on the 3 point shot this year. The point is, when your up 3 with 11 seconds on the clock anybody knows you would let them have a 2 before you would give up a wide open look at the 3 point line to tie the game. You certainly don't let maybe the best player in the world take that shot.

doctor-h
03-11-2012, 12:08 PM
You mean the guy that Lebron couldn't score on for the vast majority of the game? You mean the only guy that could score down the stretch?

Good teams make good plays.

I mean the guy that ended up with 27 points and was huge down the stretch. The guy that covered him could not score the last 3 minutes of overtime to help his team win. Danny did a good job on James most of the game, I am just saying in that situation that was a rediculously stupid play and it ended up costing us. Danny is a veteran and should know better.

Ace E.Anderson
03-11-2012, 12:10 PM
Maybe more of the focus should be on the fact that Paul George allowed Wade to get into the lane in the first place? Obviously easier said than done, but we keep Wade out of the lane, DG doesn't have to help

HC
03-11-2012, 12:11 PM
There are many, many single plays that would've changed the outcome of that game last night. Kind of hard to just pin it on Danny. I realize you said Danny deserves some of the blame, but I get the impression you really just blame Danny.

doctor-h
03-11-2012, 12:15 PM
If that is all you got, I guess Pacers had themselves a pretty good game!

No that isn't all I got at all. I could talk about Dahntay's stupid plays. Or Collison doing what Collison does by making a terrible decision choosing to go one on one with Labron James. I could talk about Vogel's decision to have Paul George on the bench at that time. His decision to limit Lou's minutes even though he was the best big man we had on the floor most of time. His decision to even call the play for Collison in the first play. By the way, the same play he always calls when the clock is running down. Lets put the ball in the hands of the worst decision maker on the team and see what he can do. We already knew what he can do and he did it again.

Shade
03-11-2012, 12:20 PM
When you're up 3, you let them have the 2 if it comes down to it than allowing a guy a wide open 3. Just common basketball sense.

Until you factor in that Wade and Bron are masters of the "And 1," and that Bron is usually an anti-clutch jump-shooter.

doctor-h
03-11-2012, 12:22 PM
There are many, many single plays that would've changed the outcome of that game last night. Kind of hard to just pin it on Danny. I realize you said Danny deserves some of the blame, but I get the impression you really just blame Danny.

No I don't blame Danny at all for total blame for the loss. But when we are going to anoint him as our best player and the leader of our team, he has to make better decisions. He should know better. There are people on this board that turn a blind eye to things just because they like a certain player. We would not have even been in the game probably if it wasn't for some of the things Danny did, but these kind of mistakes at that time of the game costs you games. It cost you positions in the standings which costs you home court advantage in the playoffs, which costs you playoff wins and fans in the stands.

pwee31
03-11-2012, 12:23 PM
LeBron simply hit 2 threes during periods in the game that he NEVER hits threes. He only hit them because he was playing MY favorite NBA team

doctor-h
03-11-2012, 12:25 PM
Until you factor in that Wade and Bron are masters of the "And 1," and that Bron is usually an anti-clutch jump-shooter.

You don't have to contest the layup. Let them have the 2. You are still up 1 and they have to foul you. More time is off the clock. The shot they take then, is more desperate and more likely to fail. If you make both free throws you are up 3 again with more options yourself while decreasing their options and making them easier to defend.

doctor-h
03-11-2012, 12:28 PM
LeBron simply hit 2 threes during periods in the game that he NEVER hits threes. He only hit them because he was playing MY favorite NBA team

If he was on our team, would you be OK with him taking the shot. I don't care who took the shot, the point is you don't give up an uncontested 3 when a 2 does not hurt you that much. It is basketball 101

doctor-h
03-11-2012, 12:30 PM
Maybe more of the focus should be on the fact that Paul George allowed Wade to get into the lane in the first place? Obviously easier said than done, but we keep Wade out of the lane, DG doesn't have to help

He didn't have to help. A 2 doesn't hurt you, you still have the lead and the ball.

yoadknux
03-11-2012, 12:57 PM
Granger tends to over-help on defense. This isn't the first time. Leaving the best player in the league for a game-tying corner 3 is a very bad move.
But overall I thought Granger had a pretty good all-around game. He absolutely did better than any of our other starters and probably was our best player.
Granger deserves some blame, yes, but probably the least. West shot 4-18. Hibbert shot 2-11. Collison turned the ball over 7 times. George got into foul trouble. Jones did some horrible moves towards the end. Vogel messed up by keeping George out for pretty much the whole 4th quarter. Granger's the last guy on that list that should get blame for losing this game.

By the way, I suggest you watch the whole play, at first I thought Granger did over-help but he really didn't.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/EwEgHf1Nwhg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Look at 0:15, or 14.2 game clock. The moment Wade gets the ball and goes inside he has a clear path to the basket. Granger can't just get out of the way. His defense wasn't even as bad as I thought.

Bball
03-11-2012, 12:58 PM
How do we know Vogel called the play for Collison? Did Vogel say that at the presser or something? Since Collison tripped over the paint at the top of the key I wasn't sure if he was going to go one on one or if he was supposed to kick it out to someone for a last second shot. I assumed the Pacers wouldn't really try to make a play with much time on the clock so I expected him to hold the ball for a while. I didn't expect him to fall down though.

Granger has mental lapses on defense... probably more than his fair share. At least it seems that way with him losing people for a backdoor play. I'd say not sticking to Lebron was also a mental lapse in that situation last night. I'd rather be *****ing about a Pacer having a mental lapse and fouling Wade for the "and 1" than Lebron getting a wide open 3 with the Pacers down 3.

But it's hard to pin the loss on Granger. The team played well enough to win for about 46 mins of regulation. ...and then several players decided to choke at select points down the stretch. Any one mistake sucks but is basketball and happens (even though it shouldn't)... but we had several down the stretch. You can't have that in a close game and expect to win.

sportfireman
03-11-2012, 01:07 PM
I understand the frustration... Hey Collison screwed up at end of regulation, Jones fouled Lebron on a shot he couldn't stop, George let Wade get in the lane, Danny sagged off Lebron. Theres too much blame to go around. WE lost as a team. Good game, lets get ready for the Magic.

Hicks
03-11-2012, 01:09 PM
Until you factor in that Wade and Bron are masters of the "And 1," and that Bron is usually an anti-clutch jump-shooter.

Well, those 'masters of the and 1' tried and failed to drive and score or get fouled already, and we had them swinging the ball around. I think the best bet was to just keep that going, don't allow a 3, and worse case scenario you play no-contact token defense as they attempt a last-second layup for 2 points, and that's assuming you give them a lane at all. It's not a given they were going to get an and-1.

BlueNGold
03-11-2012, 01:09 PM
It was a mistake, yes. But I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. Danny is in the middle of being de-programmed, so he has a pass with me.

At the same time, in a game like this one, Danny is at a stage in his career where he needs to make the right decisions at the end and that includes offense and defense. It's not rocket science and that goes for shots early in the shot clock. I understand he's still shaking off JOb....

Bball
03-11-2012, 01:13 PM
How long do we give any players to 'shake off JOB'?

Suaveness
03-11-2012, 01:22 PM
How long do we give any players to 'shake off JOB'?

I think that's long past. Even as bad as JOB was. We don't have very smart players...

Sookie
03-11-2012, 01:25 PM
How long do we give any players to 'shake off JOB'?

A while. It's like PTSD.

You ever watch what happens to our team when they get panicked. They revert to JOB ball so quickly..

Bball
03-11-2012, 01:31 PM
A while. It's like PTSD.

You ever watch what happens to our team when they get panicked. They revert to JOB ball so quickly..

I would answer that they just play bad basketball when panicked... But that is JOB basketball...

Sookie
03-11-2012, 01:40 PM
I would answer that they just play bad basketball when panicked... But that is JOB basketball...

They run and chuck. I guess we don't know whether that's from years of JOB coaching or just a typical young guy when panicked thing to do. :laugh:

I think it's JOB because when they are pumped up or panicked players tend to go to their instinct, which at this point may be what Jimmy was teaching them. (At least some of them)

IndySDExport
03-11-2012, 01:45 PM
Do we really need a third Miami postgame thread?

doctor-h
03-11-2012, 02:42 PM
How do we know Vogel called the play for Collison? Did Vogel say that at the presser or something? Since Collison tripped over the paint at the top of the key I wasn't sure if he was going to go one on one or if he was supposed to kick it out to someone for a last second shot. I assumed the Pacers wouldn't really try to make a play with much time on the clock so I expected him to hold the ball for a while. I didn't expect him to fall down though.

Granger has mental lapses on defense... probably more than his fair share. At least it seems that way with him losing people for a backdoor play. I'd say not sticking to Lebron was also a mental lapse in that situation last night. I'd rather be *****ing about a Pacer having a mental lapse and fouling Wade for the "and 1" than Lebron getting a wide open 3 with the Pacers down 3.

But it's hard to pin the loss on Granger. The team played well enough to win for about 46 mins of regulation. ...and then several players decided to choke at select points down the stretch. Any one mistake sucks but is basketball and happens (even though it shouldn't)... but we had several down the stretch. You can't have that in a close game and expect to win.

We know because the inbounds play was designed to get him the ball and they didn't even look elsewhere. There was very little time on the clock. It is the same play they call all the time in those situations. I am sure Miami had an idea what it would be and didn't mind at all for Collison to get the ball. Why do you think they had Lebron on him to begin with?

TheDavisBrothers
03-11-2012, 02:44 PM
Odviously he deserves "some" blame, but so does the entire rest of the team, this thread is useless...

PR07
03-11-2012, 03:19 PM
Or if they get close to the rim, you karate chop both their arms with your forearm, so it's impossible for them to even remotely fling a ball above their shoulders.

McKeyFan
03-11-2012, 04:36 PM
When I re-watched the play from the clip that was posted, it looked even worse.

Granger can just be dumb sometimes.

McKeyFan
03-11-2012, 04:38 PM
Maybe more of the focus should be on the fact that Paul George allowed Wade to get into the lane in the first place? Obviously easier said than done, but we keep Wade out of the lane, DG doesn't have to help

Wrong. PG did exactly what he was supposed to doŚchase DWade off the three point line.

During the rest of the game, he's supposed to keep him from driving. On this play he sacrifices that to guard the perimeter.