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Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

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  • #1

    Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

    In the interest of everybody’s sanity I’m going to make this very brief tonight. I have intentionally waited my normal cooling off period so as to not be over the top with game time emotion. The passing of time has done little to change my mood.

    I will say this, if we win against Orlando we can look back at the Heat game and say that maybe we started a turn around here. If we lose to Orlando then this Heat game will be nothing more than another loss to a winning team (which is now 7 in a row). Sadly I am of the belief that BlueNGold was correct when he said prior to the game that the Heat no longer respected us and that they would not give their best effort thus giving us a chance. Wade hardly played in the second half and even when he did he was not involved deeply in the offense, until he was.

    But we can’t control how other teams play, we can only play our game and overall we did a very good job and played a very good game. Some players better than others but overall as a team we did ok.

    One thing that I never understand and this goes to that last second 3 point attempt to send the game to O.T. Why are coaches so opposed to fouling the ball handler on that play? If we would have fouled Wade prior to driving he would have been at the line with 2 free throws with 4 seconds or so left to play. Even if he misses the second shot the likelihood of them getting a shot off of a rebound is minimal. It would still be better than an open three, which I understand was not the plan.

    I wasn’t even going to do one of these tonight because I am pretty disgusted still, I don’t get a moral victory sense here at all. Wish I could, but I can’t.

    I’m just going to give grades tonight & I probably won’t even comment on all of them.

    Danny Granger: B+ Other than leaving LeBron open in the corner he actually played a pretty good game on both sides of the floor. He was also aggressive in overtime.

    David West: B- Horrendous night shooting and even worse than that till the 4th quarter. But he did play well down the stretch and hit clutch free throws. He also rebounded well. But his lack of weak side help really shines threw when Roy is struggling.

    Roy Hibbert: D- I’m not really sure what is wrong here other than once again Roy has played himself into a funk that he can’t seem to get out of. My God he was even blocked by the rim tonight on a dunk attempt.

    Paul George: B If he would have stayed out of foul trouble this would have been an easy A. In the first quarter he was showing the world that he deserved to be on the same court as LeBron and Wade. His defense was outstanding and when he drove it to the hoop they were without the ability to stop him. Thanks to the old “Wade treatment” Paul got to sit on the pine a lot tonight. BTW Wade treatment is that whenever Dwayne Wade makes a move towards the basket with the ball in his hands certain referee’s will call a foul on the defender almost automatically. Poor A.J. got the most egregious call of the night when he plucked that ball clean but got the foul instead.

    Darren Collison: B- I’m not sure who I blame for that inept offensive play to end regulation, Collison or Vogel. He did a pretty good job overall other than that and he did hit some big shots including going 2-3 from the three point line.

    Tyler Hansbrough: D+ I don’t care what his final stats were. For the first 7 or so min. in the game he did absolutely nothing. In fact getting 2 rebounds in 22 min. of play and being the power forward should be grounds for having your contract voided. This guy is just killing us because we feel obligated to play him and he is doing nothing right now to deserve it.

    Lou Amundson: A On the other hand we have the human dynamo who is not playing enough because we are giving min. to both a center and a power forward who do not deserve the time they are getting. There is just no reason Lou should have gotten 13 min. tonight as he was just killing it when he was out there.

    Lance Stephenson: B He didn’t score but he did defend and he did hit the glass. He only took the one shot so it’s hard to say that he really did a good job but he didn’t screw up at all out there and he hasn’t played much at all since the all-star break.

    A.J. Price: B- Not bad, he still can’t shoot as his .25% attests to, but he did play good defense and distributed the ball well. Plus as I said before he got screwed by the Wade treatment.

    Dahntay Jones: C Believe me I am having to fight myself over this one. He gets a C because prior to his…. Ahem miscues he would have rated an A. If we would have won this one he would have been the hero. However his screw ups were so bad that he literally cost us the game in just a matter of 15-20 seconds. So his mess ups deserve an F so I’ll split the middle and call it a C, which is being overly generous.

    Like I said, win vs. the Magic and we can talk about this being a good game that we just didn’t win. Lose again and it will be just another loss in a 4 game losing streak.



    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

    Depressing to be a Pacers fan.

    But, well, that's what we do.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

      Originally posted by kidthecat View Post
      Depressing to be a Pacers fan.

      But, well, that's what we do.
      Only if you choose to ride the emotional roller coaster. i was proud of our guys last night. I don't pretend like blowing out the bobcats makes us great and I appreciate the fight our team had last night. the fans are depressing, especially Peck recently, the team is moving in the right direction.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

        A hard loss, for sure.

        But we played a lot better last night. Better shot selection, better defense, better offensive rebounding. It also helps when you hit a high percentage.

        West and Granger were clutch down the stretch. DC had his moments peppered with non moments. I agree, at the end, when it was clear Lebron was going to cover DC, Vogel should have called a timeout and called a play for PG.

        Also, PG should have come in much earlier for Dahntay. I doubt Vogel makes that same mistake again. He did pull him with a few seconds left in the game.

        It does feel a little like Miami was just toying with us, playing cat and mouse until crunch time. But, at least we scared them. They could have easily lost.

        In the final minute, I think, Lebron, DWade, and Bosh all hit big shots from the outside. It's tough to beat greatness. We built a lead on them but didn't step on their throats.
        "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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        • #5
          Re: Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

          Originally posted by spazzxb View Post
          Only if you choose to ride the emotional roller coaster. i was proud of our guys last night. I don't pretend like blowing out the bobcats makes us great and I appreciate the fight our team had last night. the fans are depressing, especially Peck recently, the team is moving in the right direction.
          Denial is a dangerous thing.

          Theres no way anyone can justly say this team is heading in the right direction. Its completely obvious theyre not playing nearly as well as they were earlier in the season. And this loss, though all of us hope we are wrong, could be devastating. First off, we gave the game away. Period. Secondly, it likely will not only cost us last nights game but the Orlando game as well. Overtime game and then an immediate game against another good team the next night on a back-to-back. And theres almost no way the team recovers mentally after having given the game away.

          Peck, what about an F for vogel. The players arent the only one who gave this game away. Jones in the game in crunch time instead of ur best defender George and then failing to call a timeout immediately when Lebron was on Collison for the final play in regulation after obviously having called an iso play for collison. I believe he at least had an injury timeout left.

          I really dont get the moral victory thing either. To play so well for a bigger part of the game only to show sheer stupidity and choke down the stretch is supposed to make u feel good?

          How? Knowing u can play well but will still **** it away in the end doesnt feel good. Quite the opposite. Finding ways to lose when we used to find ways to win is not headed in the right direction. And it certainly doesnt feel good.
          The Most Common Cause of Stress is Dealing with Idiots

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          • #6
            Re: Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

            Look Dahntay Jones made 2 the biggest mistakes a player could make in a 15 second stretch. He brought the ball up along the side line essentially give the heat a 3rd defender one the game to double at the half court line. And then he fouls Lebron by swiping his thigh. Ridiculous. Vogel share alot of blame for this as well. A minute left, up by 4 and you don't call Time to get your best defender in the game?
            You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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            • #7
              Re: Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

              I really like Peck's post but I disagree when he says George played terrific defense. At the start of the game Wade was completely abusing George and had 14 points very quickly. After that I thought George did a good job. Nobody should be surprised James was on Collison for that last play in regulation. That is the same play Vogel calls at the end of every halftime it seems. Isolate Collison, let him dribble the clock down to nothing and throw up a prayer. Any team with a scout would have known that is what would be called. Our coaches should of known James would be on the ball. He always is. I am really starting to wonder about some of the things Vogel is doing. Peck is right, Lou should be getting more minutes. Hibbert and Hansbrough have been awful lately.

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              • #8
                Re: Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

                There must be some kind of hazing or initiation that they put Hibbert through as a first time all star that screwed up his head.

                It seems that since he returned from Orlando his game is totally f-ed up.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

                  Every team has denied Roy his post position. He needs to make a better effort.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

                    Originally posted by cinotimz View Post
                    Denial is a dangerous thing.

                    Theres no way anyone can justly say this team is heading in the right direction. Its completely obvious theyre not playing nearly as well as they were earlier in the season. And this loss, though all of us hope we are wrong, could be devastating. First off, we gave the game away. Period. Secondly, it likely will not only cost us last nights game but the Orlando game as well. Overtime game and then an immediate game against another good team the next night on a back-to-back. And theres almost no way the team recovers mentally after having given the game away.

                    Peck, what about an F for vogel. The players arent the only one who gave this game away. Jones in the game in crunch time instead of ur best defender George and then failing to call a timeout immediately when Lebron was on Collison for the final play in regulation after obviously having called an iso play for collison. I believe he at least had an injury timeout left.

                    I really dont get the moral victory thing either. To play so well for a bigger part of the game only to show sheer stupidity and choke down the stretch is supposed to make u feel good?

                    How? Knowing u can play well but will still **** it away in the end doesnt feel good. Quite the opposite. Finding ways to lose when we used to find ways to win is not headed in the right direction. And it certainly doesnt feel good.
                    I pretty much got blasted last night when I said the same exact thing. I agree that we gave the game away. It makes it worse that we played our hearts out, and it still wasn't good enough. If that's not a sign that something is wrong here, maybe the 7 game losing streak against winning teams is. If we don't get things righted soon, we could find ourselves in the 6th or even 7th seed come playoff time.

                    We still have time to turn it around, just have to figure out HOW and do it soon

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

                      Originally posted by Peck View Post
                      One thing that I never understand and this goes to that last second 3 point attempt to send the game to O.T. Why are coaches so opposed to fouling the ball handler on that play? If we would have fouled Wade prior to driving he would have been at the line with 2 free throws with 4 seconds or so left to play. Even if he misses the second shot the likelihood of them getting a shot off of a rebound is minimal. It would still be better than an open three, which I understand was not the plan.
                      I cannot understand why NBA teams do this either. We do this everytime in Europe and it never backfires. It usually just seals the game.
                      Originally posted by IrishPacer
                      Empty vessels make the most noise.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

                        There is no denying that Vogel is still very much on a learning curve. However, being this far in the season, I have no clue as to why he does or does not do certain things at this point. He is a student of the game, but it sometimes doesn't seem to translate into what goes down on the court.

                        From my perspective, he needs to focus on clock management and translate this to the players, b/c he is not on the court and in a position to do certain things if he cannot get the players' attention. It should be automatic that if we have ample timeouts remaining in crunch time with the game on the line, you need to call a timeout if you are tied up rather than risk a jump ball. Trouble getting the ball over the timeline? Call a timeout rather than risk a bad pass with the game on the line. Even my teammates on my intramural team know this, though I am always frequently reminding them. Maybe that's what it takes for this team. A good coach has a well-disciplined team---we are still a works-in-progress in that regard.

                        I don't know though. I don't pretend to be a coach, but he could appear to benefit from learning to manage his time-outs better. And he needs to go back and read the unabridged NBA Book of Committing Intentional Fouls.

                        I still think Vogel has all the makings of a very good coach, but he is still learning his craft, and is prone to making silly errors in judgement which in last night's game, had a big impact IMO.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

                          Originally posted by Nuntius View Post
                          I cannot understand why NBA teams do this either. We do this everytime in Europe and it never backfires. It usually just seals the game.
                          Money, and the way to make the most of it, determines this in my opinion. The NBA is a superstar driven league, and Miami is the current team with the brightest superstars.

                          My guess is that there is some unwritten rule that officials are not to blatantly determine the outcomes of games at the very end, and the teams understand that the whistle won't come even if they do try to foul. That way the most fans are satisfied with the end result.

                          However, quick fouls that reward superstars and their teams and result in a positive result for the majority of fans the most reliably, or add the most to the drama at the end of the games tend to be called in my opinion.

                          We could have tried to foul Wade, but that would have prevented the exciting outcome that hinged on the result of that possession, hence the likelihood of a non-call unless the foul was flagrant, which would have allowed Miami to still have a chance to win.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

                            Errors in game management on the court IMHO point more to a low basketball IQ. The PG should be an extension of the coach on the floor.

                            This team was drilled with some weird basketball ideals from O'Brien but it's hard to believe there'd still be a residual effect from that. Maybe this team does need some basketball fundamental 101 basics drilled into them? ...Or another high basketball IQ guy added to the team....

                            Maybe Collison needs to spend some time under the wing of a better PG...
                            Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                            ------

                            "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                            -John Wooden

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: Close don't count

                              Originally posted by Nuntius View Post
                              I cannot understand why NBA teams do this either. We do this everytime in Europe and it never backfires. It usually just seals the game.
                              I agree, coaches often say "too many crazy things could happen" But the worst thing that could happen is they score the two free throws, steal the in bounds and score again. But that's two possessions and pretty unlikely.

                              The second worst thing that could happen is they make one free throw, get the rebound, and kick it out for a three/get an +1

                              The third is they miss one free throw, get the rebound and get a put back. Same as a three pointer.

                              I think the opposing team is far less likely to do those three things than make a three to tie. So I'd take my chances.

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