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Peck
03-11-2012, 03:17 AM
In the interest of everybody’s sanity I’m going to make this very brief tonight. I have intentionally waited my normal cooling off period so as to not be over the top with game time emotion. The passing of time has done little to change my mood.

I will say this, if we win against Orlando we can look back at the Heat game and say that maybe we started a turn around here. If we lose to Orlando then this Heat game will be nothing more than another loss to a winning team (which is now 7 in a row). Sadly I am of the belief that BlueNGold was correct when he said prior to the game that the Heat no longer respected us and that they would not give their best effort thus giving us a chance. Wade hardly played in the second half and even when he did he was not involved deeply in the offense, until he was.

But we can’t control how other teams play, we can only play our game and overall we did a very good job and played a very good game. Some players better than others but overall as a team we did ok.

One thing that I never understand and this goes to that last second 3 point attempt to send the game to O.T. Why are coaches so opposed to fouling the ball handler on that play? If we would have fouled Wade prior to driving he would have been at the line with 2 free throws with 4 seconds or so left to play. Even if he misses the second shot the likelihood of them getting a shot off of a rebound is minimal. It would still be better than an open three, which I understand was not the plan.

I wasn’t even going to do one of these tonight because I am pretty disgusted still, I don’t get a moral victory sense here at all. Wish I could, but I can’t.

I’m just going to give grades tonight & I probably won’t even comment on all of them.

Danny Granger: B+ Other than leaving LeBron open in the corner he actually played a pretty good game on both sides of the floor. He was also aggressive in overtime.

David West: B- Horrendous night shooting and even worse than that till the 4th quarter. But he did play well down the stretch and hit clutch free throws. He also rebounded well. But his lack of weak side help really shines threw when Roy is struggling.

Roy Hibbert: D- I’m not really sure what is wrong here other than once again Roy has played himself into a funk that he can’t seem to get out of. My God he was even blocked by the rim tonight on a dunk attempt.

Paul George: B If he would have stayed out of foul trouble this would have been an easy A. In the first quarter he was showing the world that he deserved to be on the same court as LeBron and Wade. His defense was outstanding and when he drove it to the hoop they were without the ability to stop him. Thanks to the old “Wade treatment” Paul got to sit on the pine a lot tonight. BTW Wade treatment is that whenever Dwayne Wade makes a move towards the basket with the ball in his hands certain referee’s will call a foul on the defender almost automatically. Poor A.J. got the most egregious call of the night when he plucked that ball clean but got the foul instead.

Darren Collison: B- I’m not sure who I blame for that inept offensive play to end regulation, Collison or Vogel. He did a pretty good job overall other than that and he did hit some big shots including going 2-3 from the three point line.

Tyler Hansbrough: D+ I don’t care what his final stats were. For the first 7 or so min. in the game he did absolutely nothing. In fact getting 2 rebounds in 22 min. of play and being the power forward should be grounds for having your contract voided. This guy is just killing us because we feel obligated to play him and he is doing nothing right now to deserve it.

Lou Amundson: A On the other hand we have the human dynamo who is not playing enough because we are giving min. to both a center and a power forward who do not deserve the time they are getting. There is just no reason Lou should have gotten 13 min. tonight as he was just killing it when he was out there.

Lance Stephenson: B He didn’t score but he did defend and he did hit the glass. He only took the one shot so it’s hard to say that he really did a good job but he didn’t screw up at all out there and he hasn’t played much at all since the all-star break.

A.J. Price: B- Not bad, he still can’t shoot as his .25% attests to, but he did play good defense and distributed the ball well. Plus as I said before he got screwed by the Wade treatment.

Dahntay Jones: C Believe me I am having to fight myself over this one. He gets a C because prior to his…. Ahem miscues he would have rated an A. If we would have won this one he would have been the hero. However his screw ups were so bad that he literally cost us the game in just a matter of 15-20 seconds. So his mess ups deserve an F so I’ll split the middle and call it a C, which is being overly generous.

Like I said, win vs. the Magic and we can talk about this being a good game that we just didn’t win. Lose again and it will be just another loss in a 4 game losing streak.

http://troll.me/images/conspiracy-keanu/what-if-using-a-moral-victory-is-a-moral-victory.jpg

kidthecat
03-11-2012, 05:36 AM
Depressing to be a Pacers fan.

But, well, that's what we do.

spazzxb
03-11-2012, 08:19 AM
Depressing to be a Pacers fan.

But, well, that's what we do.

Only if you choose to ride the emotional roller coaster. i was proud of our guys last night. I don't pretend like blowing out the bobcats makes us great and I appreciate the fight our team had last night. the fans are depressing, especially Peck recently, the team is moving in the right direction.

McKeyFan
03-11-2012, 08:43 AM
A hard loss, for sure.

But we played a lot better last night. Better shot selection, better defense, better offensive rebounding. It also helps when you hit a high percentage.

West and Granger were clutch down the stretch. DC had his moments peppered with non moments. I agree, at the end, when it was clear Lebron was going to cover DC, Vogel should have called a timeout and called a play for PG.

Also, PG should have come in much earlier for Dahntay. I doubt Vogel makes that same mistake again. He did pull him with a few seconds left in the game.

It does feel a little like Miami was just toying with us, playing cat and mouse until crunch time. But, at least we scared them. They could have easily lost.

In the final minute, I think, Lebron, DWade, and Bosh all hit big shots from the outside. It's tough to beat greatness. We built a lead on them but didn't step on their throats.

cinotimz
03-11-2012, 10:30 AM
Only if you choose to ride the emotional roller coaster. i was proud of our guys last night. I don't pretend like blowing out the bobcats makes us great and I appreciate the fight our team had last night. the fans are depressing, especially Peck recently, the team is moving in the right direction.

Denial is a dangerous thing.

Theres no way anyone can justly say this team is heading in the right direction. Its completely obvious theyre not playing nearly as well as they were earlier in the season. And this loss, though all of us hope we are wrong, could be devastating. First off, we gave the game away. Period. Secondly, it likely will not only cost us last nights game but the Orlando game as well. Overtime game and then an immediate game against another good team the next night on a back-to-back. And theres almost no way the team recovers mentally after having given the game away.

Peck, what about an F for vogel. The players arent the only one who gave this game away. Jones in the game in crunch time instead of ur best defender George and then failing to call a timeout immediately when Lebron was on Collison for the final play in regulation after obviously having called an iso play for collison. I believe he at least had an injury timeout left.

I really dont get the moral victory thing either. To play so well for a bigger part of the game only to show sheer stupidity and choke down the stretch is supposed to make u feel good?

How? Knowing u can play well but will still **** it away in the end doesnt feel good. Quite the opposite. Finding ways to lose when we used to find ways to win is not headed in the right direction. And it certainly doesnt feel good.

graphic-er
03-11-2012, 11:09 AM
Look Dahntay Jones made 2 the biggest mistakes a player could make in a 15 second stretch. He brought the ball up along the side line essentially give the heat a 3rd defender one the game to double at the half court line. And then he fouls Lebron by swiping his thigh. Ridiculous. Vogel share alot of blame for this as well. A minute left, up by 4 and you don't call Time to get your best defender in the game?

doctor-h
03-11-2012, 11:39 AM
I really like Peck's post but I disagree when he says George played terrific defense. At the start of the game Wade was completely abusing George and had 14 points very quickly. After that I thought George did a good job. Nobody should be surprised James was on Collison for that last play in regulation. That is the same play Vogel calls at the end of every halftime it seems. Isolate Collison, let him dribble the clock down to nothing and throw up a prayer. Any team with a scout would have known that is what would be called. Our coaches should of known James would be on the ball. He always is. I am really starting to wonder about some of the things Vogel is doing. Peck is right, Lou should be getting more minutes. Hibbert and Hansbrough have been awful lately.

Larry Staverman
03-11-2012, 12:03 PM
There must be some kind of hazing or initiation that they put Hibbert through as a first time all star that screwed up his head.

It seems that since he returned from Orlando his game is totally f-ed up.

tora tora
03-11-2012, 12:28 PM
Every team has denied Roy his post position. He needs to make a better effort.

Ace E.Anderson
03-11-2012, 12:30 PM
Denial is a dangerous thing.

Theres no way anyone can justly say this team is heading in the right direction. Its completely obvious theyre not playing nearly as well as they were earlier in the season. And this loss, though all of us hope we are wrong, could be devastating. First off, we gave the game away. Period. Secondly, it likely will not only cost us last nights game but the Orlando game as well. Overtime game and then an immediate game against another good team the next night on a back-to-back. And theres almost no way the team recovers mentally after having given the game away.

Peck, what about an F for vogel. The players arent the only one who gave this game away. Jones in the game in crunch time instead of ur best defender George and then failing to call a timeout immediately when Lebron was on Collison for the final play in regulation after obviously having called an iso play for collison. I believe he at least had an injury timeout left.

I really dont get the moral victory thing either. To play so well for a bigger part of the game only to show sheer stupidity and choke down the stretch is supposed to make u feel good?

How? Knowing u can play well but will still **** it away in the end doesnt feel good. Quite the opposite. Finding ways to lose when we used to find ways to win is not headed in the right direction. And it certainly doesnt feel good.

I pretty much got blasted last night when I said the same exact thing. I agree that we gave the game away. It makes it worse that we played our hearts out, and it still wasn't good enough. If that's not a sign that something is wrong here, maybe the 7 game losing streak against winning teams is. If we don't get things righted soon, we could find ourselves in the 6th or even 7th seed come playoff time.

We still have time to turn it around, just have to figure out HOW and do it soon

Nuntius
03-11-2012, 01:28 PM
One thing that I never understand and this goes to that last second 3 point attempt to send the game to O.T. Why are coaches so opposed to fouling the ball handler on that play? If we would have fouled Wade prior to driving he would have been at the line with 2 free throws with 4 seconds or so left to play. Even if he misses the second shot the likelihood of them getting a shot off of a rebound is minimal. It would still be better than an open three, which I understand was not the plan.


I cannot understand why NBA teams do this either. We do this everytime in Europe and it never backfires. It usually just seals the game.

joeyd
03-11-2012, 01:54 PM
There is no denying that Vogel is still very much on a learning curve. However, being this far in the season, I have no clue as to why he does or does not do certain things at this point. He is a student of the game, but it sometimes doesn't seem to translate into what goes down on the court.

From my perspective, he needs to focus on clock management and translate this to the players, b/c he is not on the court and in a position to do certain things if he cannot get the players' attention. It should be automatic that if we have ample timeouts remaining in crunch time with the game on the line, you need to call a timeout if you are tied up rather than risk a jump ball. Trouble getting the ball over the timeline? Call a timeout rather than risk a bad pass with the game on the line. Even my teammates on my intramural team know this, though I am always frequently reminding them. Maybe that's what it takes for this team. A good coach has a well-disciplined team---we are still a works-in-progress in that regard.

I don't know though. I don't pretend to be a coach, but he could appear to benefit from learning to manage his time-outs better. And he needs to go back and read the unabridged NBA Book of Committing Intentional Fouls.

I still think Vogel has all the makings of a very good coach, but he is still learning his craft, and is prone to making silly errors in judgement which in last night's game, had a big impact IMO.

Brad8888
03-11-2012, 02:07 PM
I cannot understand why NBA teams do this either. We do this everytime in Europe and it never backfires. It usually just seals the game.

Money, and the way to make the most of it, determines this in my opinion. The NBA is a superstar driven league, and Miami is the current team with the brightest superstars.

My guess is that there is some unwritten rule that officials are not to blatantly determine the outcomes of games at the very end, and the teams understand that the whistle won't come even if they do try to foul. That way the most fans are satisfied with the end result.

However, quick fouls that reward superstars and their teams and result in a positive result for the majority of fans the most reliably, or add the most to the drama at the end of the games tend to be called in my opinion.

We could have tried to foul Wade, but that would have prevented the exciting outcome that hinged on the result of that possession, hence the likelihood of a non-call unless the foul was flagrant, which would have allowed Miami to still have a chance to win.

Bball
03-11-2012, 02:09 PM
Errors in game management on the court IMHO point more to a low basketball IQ. The PG should be an extension of the coach on the floor.

This team was drilled with some weird basketball ideals from O'Brien but it's hard to believe there'd still be a residual effect from that. Maybe this team does need some basketball fundamental 101 basics drilled into them? ...Or another high basketball IQ guy added to the team....

Maybe Collison needs to spend some time under the wing of a better PG...

Sookie
03-11-2012, 02:10 PM
I cannot understand why NBA teams do this either. We do this everytime in Europe and it never backfires. It usually just seals the game.

I agree, coaches often say "too many crazy things could happen" But the worst thing that could happen is they score the two free throws, steal the in bounds and score again. But that's two possessions and pretty unlikely.

The second worst thing that could happen is they make one free throw, get the rebound, and kick it out for a three/get an +1

The third is they miss one free throw, get the rebound and get a put back. Same as a three pointer.

I think the opposing team is far less likely to do those three things than make a three to tie. So I'd take my chances.

Bball
03-11-2012, 02:29 PM
Fouling prior to the 3 in a 3 point game...
First of all, what was the time left because the idea is generally when the team is in the final seconds and not likely to even have another possession. Otherwise, you try to play defense and not allow them ANY points, let alone stop the clock for them and allow them to score at the line.

At a certain point you'd rather them use clock, you defend the 3 tough, and at worse give up a slightly less contested 2 without an 'and 1' without any clock stoppage (except after the made basket). Then with your 1 point lead you want to eat clock yourself and hit your FT's thus preserving the 3 point cushion.

OTOH, when the margin is 3 and a team is in the final clicks of the clock and a 2nd possession is unlikely, that is when the idea of sending them to the line for 2 rather than giving up the 3 comes into play.

I'm guessing you don't see that more often because coaches know in the WWE elements of the refs and NBA games that they might allow some weird continuation call or a flagrant for one thing.... and for another they might swallow their whistles for the intentional miss/rebound/putback scenario and allow an over the back or blatant push in the back to go uncalled. Or in the event of two FT makes they might allow some extra contact on the following inbounds play thus making a steal more likely or a 5 count (even a quick 5 count).

IOW.... the odds of a team making 3 points on any trip down the floor when they are fouled and at the FT line for 2 might be pretty low when looked at over the course of any period in any game. But the final 10 seconds could be a whole different thing because coaches can't trust refs to just blow the whistle when they should... or how they should. Not when there is the possibility of an entertaining 'moment' and outcome in the balance...

vnzla81
03-11-2012, 02:37 PM
Every team has denied Roy his post position. He needs to make a better effort.

He does but doesn't get the ball at the right time, remember that there is a 3 second rule.

vnzla81
03-11-2012, 02:41 PM
Only if you choose to ride the emotional roller coaster. i was proud of our guys last night. I don't pretend like blowing out the bobcats makes us great and I appreciate the fight our team had last night. the fans are depressing, especially Peck recently, the team is moving in the right direction.

"Right direction" what is that? 7th place in the east? that's is the direction we are headed if we keep losing the way we are losing.

Nuntius
03-11-2012, 02:42 PM
I agree, coaches often say "too many crazy things could happen"

Coaches really say that? I guess I'll never understand how NBA coaches thing. To me, this reasoning is simply stupid on behalf of the coaches.


Fouling prior to the 3 in a 3 point game...
First of all, what was the time left because the idea is generally when the team is in the final seconds and not likely to even have another possession. Otherwise, you try to play defense and not allow them ANY points, let alone stop the clock for them and allow them to score at the line.


LeBron hit the 3 with 10 seconds remaining in the clock. We could have fouled Wade with 12 to 15 seconds remaining. They wouldn't have another possession. We should have fouled.

Sookie
03-11-2012, 02:45 PM
Coaches really say that? I guess I'll never understand how NBA coaches thing. To me, this reasoning is simply stupid on behalf of the coaches.
.


I think what they are really saying is "we don't trust the refs" as others have said. We foul Wade or Lebron and they probably would have given a flagrant.

Nuntius
03-11-2012, 02:48 PM
I think what they are really saying is "we don't trust the refs" as others have said. We foul Wade or Lebron and they probably would have given a flagrant.

We don't trust the refs down there either. However, we do foul. If they give a ****** call and decide the game, well. No one can guarantee that they are gonna leave the court alive :devil:

Bball
03-11-2012, 02:59 PM
LeBron hit the 3 with 10 seconds remaining in the clock. We could have fouled Wade with 12 to 15 seconds remaining. They wouldn't have another possession. We should have fouled.

You foul Wade with 12-15 secs remaining and he goes to the line and tries to make 2 FT's. That's plenty of time for another possession for Miami. Assuming he makes them, we have the ball out of bounds with about 12-15secs remaining and will immediately be fouled on the inbounds (assuming we get it inbounds cleanly) and probably not lose more than a second off the clock.

We then have to hit our FT's to regain the 3 point edge.... which is no guarantee.

Miss or make, they call time out and advance the ball and still have probably 10 secs or more on the clock and again with a chance to tie or win depending on how we did with our FT's.

If we have a 3 point lead I tell my guys at the time out that once the clock gets under 5 secs THEN foul but under no circumstances let it be in the act of shooting.

I'm not intentionally fouling with 12-15 secs on the clock... or even 10... No way.

Eleazar
03-11-2012, 03:01 PM
My guess is that there is some unwritten rule that officials are not to blatantly determine the outcomes of games at the very end, and the teams understand that the whistle won't come even if they do try to foul. That way the most fans are satisfied with the end result.



Which is backwards logic, when the refs purposefully go outside of the rules of the game they are affecting the outcome of the game. It is only when they stay within the rules of the game that they are not effecting the outcome, but the players are. A foul is a foul no matter when it happens during a game, the rules do not change. If there is a foul that is the players fault not the refs fault.

Nuntius
03-11-2012, 03:15 PM
You foul Wade with 12-15 secs remaining and he goes to the line and tries to make 2 FT's. That's plenty of time for another possession for Miami. Assuming he makes them, we have the ball out of bounds with about 12-15secs remaining and will immediately be fouled on the inbounds (assuming we get it inbounds cleanly) and probably not lose more than a second off the clock.

We then have to hit our FT's to regain the 3 point edge.... which is no guarantee.

Miss or make, they call time out and advance the ball and still have probably 10 secs or more on the clock and again with a chance to tie or win depending on how we did with our FT's.

If we have a 3 point lead I tell my guys at the time out that once the clock gets under 5 secs THEN foul but under no circumstances let it be in the act of shooting.

I'm not intentionally fouling with 12-15 secs on the clock... or even 10... No way.

I can see your reasoning. I still think we should have fouled and ice the game but I can understand why someone wouldn't foul.

spazzxb
03-11-2012, 04:10 PM
Denial is a dangerous thing.

Theres no way anyone can justly say this team is heading in the right direction.


Did you see the other two times we played Miami? read the first couple of pages of the game thread, they did better than most expected last night. also, the teams direction is not isolated to 1 season.

graphic-er
03-11-2012, 04:20 PM
What you all are forgetting is that on the Lebron 3 to send it to OT, the moving screen set on Granger by Bosh was not called, and it was right there in front of the ref. If the refs call the game fairly, it wold have been Pacer ball.

Sookie
03-11-2012, 04:27 PM
What you all are forgetting is that on the Lebron 3 to send it to OT, the moving screen set on Granger by Bosh was not called, and it was right there in front of the ref. If the refs call the game fairly, it wold have been Pacer ball.

To be fair, they don't ever call moving screens.

TheDavisBrothers
03-11-2012, 04:30 PM
What you all are forgetting is that on the Lebron 3 to send it to OT, the moving screen set on Granger by Bosh was not called, and it was right there in front of the ref. If the refs call the game fairly, it wold have been Pacer ball.

Yea, we'll get that call as soon a hell freezes over...

Nuntius
03-11-2012, 04:37 PM
To be fair, they don't ever call moving screens.

To be fair, they don't even call moving screens down here :p

graphic-er
03-11-2012, 04:43 PM
Not true, all of our bigs have been called on moving screens multiple times this year.

Sookie
03-11-2012, 04:46 PM
Not true, all of our bigs have been called on moving screens multiple times this year.

Let me rephrase..

Teams that have superstar guards don't get called for moving screens. :laugh:

TheDavisBrothers
03-11-2012, 04:55 PM
Not true, all of our bigs have been called on moving screens multiple times this year.

1. they do call it odviously, but it is very rare
2. they are aren't gonna call it the end of the game
3. they aren't gonna call it against superstars

Midcoasted
03-11-2012, 05:09 PM
So obviously most everyone can agree superstars get calls we could never get, meaning the game is fixed to some degree. If it were illegal to fix games by giving superstars calls, the NBA would have gotten busted for it already. But it is not illegal because the NBA is classified legally as entertainment.

And I've been called crazy for my views. But anyone who disagrees with me didn't watch the Pacers of the 90s hit the proverbial "superstar ref call" wall every year.

The fix was in last night, and we still should have won. And I don't care what anyone says, the fix is in when one team gets preferential treatment from the refs, no matter how you want to slice it. I find it funny the Bulls game had Joey Crawford, and the heat game had Bavetta, the two most super star jocking, unfair refs in the league. I even seen Bavetta explaining to Danny, "I don't hate you," or so it seemed that way while I was reading lips after a superstar call for the LeWades. Danny is probably asking wtf do you and the NBA hate us, and love the Heat? LMFAO.

Anyways as much as the NBA fixes things, our guys still lost that one last night. For Bavetta, I'd give that an A for officiating. It could have been a whole hell of a lot worse from him. He could have easily put us in a position where we didn't lose the game by our own actions. LOL

McKeyFan
03-12-2012, 09:49 AM
I just don't agree.

We had an out of bounds call, clearly off Granger, that went our way. (Miami game).

Last night, there was one play where Howard got absolutely hammered over the head. No call.

If DJones is dumb enough to give Lebron a love tap for a breakaway layup than we deserve the And 1.

And I think guys like Crawford and Bavetta are better about not giving the superstars favorable calls. They've been around so long they have the confidence to call them as they see them.

Bad calls are made. But the superstars excel far more because they are great than the idea they get so many favorable calls.