PDA

View Full Version : A Closer Look at Darren Collison's 20 Assist Night



Hibbert
03-09-2012, 12:20 AM
I just came across this and it's the first I have ever even heard about this but thought it was pretty interesting. If this has been posted feel free to delete. With the lack of trade talk and other NBA news right now this is something new to me so maybe it will be for someone else as well.

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/09/a-closer-look-at-darren-collisons-alleged-20-assist-night/

Brett Pollakoff

Monday night against Golden State, Hornets' rookie point guard Darren Collison had himself one heck of a game. In addition to putting up 16 points on just 12 shots, he dished out a whopping 20 assists in leading his team to a tight, 135-131 victory over the D-League team formerly known as the Warriors.

Forgetting the fact that just about anyone can put up big numbers in the offensive category of their choosing against this Warriors team (just ask Brandon Jennings), 20 assists seemed like a lot for anyone -- even in a high-possession game that saw the teams put up a combined 266 points in regulation. And many, including the announcing team for the Warriors, questioned the generosity of the statisticians in New Orleans.

They have him with 20 assists tonight... And this is a Hornet's rookie record of 20 assists. I'm going to say this politely. They need to watch the video of this game because Darren Collison has about 13 assists in the game, not 20. The person keeping assists tonight is a little unclear on the rule.

Sound like sour grapes from the guy whose team was on the losing end of a winnable game, right? Until you go to the replay and see that some of these assists were absolutely given to Collison when they shouldn't have been.

Zach Harper did the heavy lifting over at Hardwood Paroxysm, painstakingly breaking down every single play where an assist was awarded to Collison. The summary of his findings was that one of the assists was questionable, and that four should simply not have been called assists.

Letting the so-called "questionable" assist slide, that still leaves the rookie with a very impressive total of 16 on the night. So if you're the Hornets' stat people, why needlessly cook the books here? It could be laziness, or it could be intentional; either way, someone who is seemingly without a dog in this fight -- Cavs' beat writer Brian Windhorst -- tweeted last night that the stat crew in New Orleans has been "VERY loose with dimes in [the] Chris Paul era."

One could argue that if the crew is doing this on purpose, they're not increasing the value of Collison's play, but instead, are decreasing the value of Paul's play. If anyone running the point for the Hornets can get their assist total padded by 20 percent when playing at home, then it calls into question the numbers of a guy like Paul, who is legitimately a top-two point guard in the league.

Now, to be clear, things like this don't just happen in New Orleans. There are crews all over the league who, intentionally or not, give an extra assist, rebound, steal, or blocked shot to players on the home team. That's just the way it is. But with League Pass replay available to anyone who cares to take a closer look, it's time they begin to strive for accuracy of the numbers, instead of inflation of them.

mb221
03-09-2012, 12:25 AM
I don't think this is a unique situation. Pretty sure it was widely asserted that Utah helped Stockton's assist total.

bballpacen
03-09-2012, 12:27 AM
Not sure what the point of this post is, other than to start another debate on how terrible you and others think DC is... IMO, it is irrelevant...

Hibbert
03-09-2012, 12:31 AM
Not sure what the point of this post is, other than to start another debate on how terrible you and others think DC is... IMO, it is irrelevant...

Really? Look at my damn posts and tell me if I have even mentioned DC let alone talking negative about him. I was on twitter and saw something about him and a movie so I googled Darren Collison movie and found this. Good assumption though.

Nuntius
03-09-2012, 12:35 AM
I was on twitter and saw something about him and a movie so I googled Darren Collison movie and found this.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Hibbert
03-09-2012, 12:46 AM
True story.

spreedom
03-09-2012, 12:59 AM
If you think that's bad, you should check out Skiles' 30-assist game... a lot of those were "dump it in to the guy in the post, he sizes up his opponent, pump fakes and spins around him for a layup" type assists.

Derek2k3
03-09-2012, 01:17 AM
Not sure what the point of this post is, other than to start another debate on how terrible you and others think DC is... IMO, it is irrelevant...

Easy there, tiger.

I took this as less "DC isn't as good as we thought!!?!?!@!" and more "interesting note about NBA statistical records.

I've always wondered how this was handled. I had never seen this article, thanks for posting. Like the writer said, 16 assists was damn impressive.

He's still got it in him. Something that goes unnoticed: The team is 24th in the league in shooting, tough to rack up assists when your teammates are missing easy shots. Imagine if D-West shot 50% to start the season like he has lately. DC's assists would be way up.

Lance George
03-09-2012, 01:48 AM
I wonder how many Pacers fans wetting themselves over Rondo's huge triple-double remember D.C.'s 7-13 shooting, 18 point, 13 rebound, 12 assist game against us (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AmChpTRupNNuSlqQRnlOR7akvLYF?gid=201 0021903) during his rookie season?

If we allowed Darren Collison free reign of our offense, I have no doubt he could put up those types of huge numbers again.

As for the author trying to discredit Darren Collison's 20-assist game as "home cooking," let me point that D.C. had an 18-assist game a little over a month earlier in Memphis (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=Av8PsLI0DWwRYU5o8bLLDamkvLYF?gid=201 0013029), and went on to have a pair of back-to-back 14-assist games on the road a little over a week later, including a game in Oakland (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=ArElmLAhRlhWgG_bNgrlTN6kvLYF?gid=201 0031709).

Lance George
03-09-2012, 01:53 AM
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WGqn3oyGDb0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Orlando Magic vs. Boston Celtics - Play By Play - January 17, 2011 - ESPN (http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=310117002)

Orlando Magic vs. Boston Celtics - January 17, 2011 - Play By Play - Sporting News (http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/play-by-play/2011011702/orlando-magic--boston-celtics)

Sherlock
03-09-2012, 04:29 AM
I think there is a valid point here.

Why in the world Darren the Tunnel Tision Collison put up huge number in Hornets, and we can never imagine that happen in Pacerland?

Of course people argue that it is the system in Hornets is designed for point guard.

I never paid attention on C. Paul area or D. Collison area Hornets.
Therefore I would appreciate anyone give a details on why D.C. failed to rack up the same number here.

Kstat
03-09-2012, 07:11 AM
This thread has inspired me. I need to find tape of Will Bynum's 20-assist game.

Pacer Fan
03-09-2012, 09:30 AM
And in other AOL News Headlines...

ACLU Victory: Charges Dropped Against Denver Man Who Gave Cops The Finger

EXCLUSIVE VIDEO: The Amazing Kreskin On UFOs, Doomsday And His Own Mysterious Future

Chinese Prisoners Forced To Play Video Games In Bizarre Scheme


http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/09/a-closer-look-at-darren-collisons-alleged-20-assist-night/

If it sales, write it!

Peck
03-09-2012, 09:44 AM
I don't think this is a unique situation. Pretty sure it was widely asserted that Utah helped Stockton's assist total.

I know it's akin to blasphemy to say this but people should also go back and look at several assists by Magic Johnson as well. There were games I would watch and think that he had a good game with 9 assist only to see the box score say 16 assists or the like.

xIndyFan
03-09-2012, 10:19 AM
Not sure what the point of this post is, other than to start another debate on how terrible you and others think DC is... IMO, it is irrelevant...

fwiw, i'm with you.

Nuntius
03-09-2012, 10:23 AM
Why in the world Darren the Tunnel Tision Collison put up huge number in Hornets, and we can never imagine that happen in Pacerland?

Therefore I would appreciate anyone give a details on why D.C. failed to rack up the same number here.

Have you ever seen our offense? :p

Sherlock
03-09-2012, 06:27 PM
Have you ever seen our offense? :p

Or the better question is, why he can do that in Hornets but not here?
Yes, their PG favorite system, but in which aspect he excel?
Why can we not copy that?

Hibbert
03-09-2012, 06:29 PM
Or the better question is, why he can do that in Hornets but not here?
Yes, their PG favorite system, but in which aspect he excel?
Why can we not copy that?

No ***** Sherlock:)

cdash
03-09-2012, 10:49 PM
I wonder how many Pacers fans wetting themselves over Rondo's huge triple-double remember D.C.'s 7-13 shooting, 18 point, 13 rebound, 12 assist game against us (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AmChpTRupNNuSlqQRnlOR7akvLYF?gid=201 0021903) during his rookie season?


I remember that game. I remember watching that game and thinking how he looked like the best player on the court--for either team. What happened?

Nuntius
03-10-2012, 01:24 AM
Why can we not copy that?

Cause we lack the personnel to do this.

The Hornets used stretch 4s and athletic 5s. None of the two clogs the lane and both of them require cover (you have to close out to the stretch 4s or elsey they'll score and you have to box out the athletic 5s or else they'll grab the offensive board and score). This leaves the lane open for the PG and since the Hornets were PG friendly he has absolute control over what he is going to do. He can choose to shoot off the dribble, play the PnR and PnP or drive (and dish) or whatever he wants to.

We use post players and play inside out. We simply cannot run our offense through Roy and expect DC to get assists. It doesn't make any sense at all.

Sherlock
03-10-2012, 06:32 AM
Yes, we have one, or two immobile bigs.
That is a concern.

Robertmto
03-10-2012, 08:57 AM
If you think that's bad, you should check out Skiles' 30-assist game... a lot of those were "dump it in to the guy in the post, he sizes up his opponent, pump fakes and spins around him for a layup" type assists. 3 of em....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB_vcYPsXbY

Naptown_Seth
03-10-2012, 05:58 PM
I know it's akin to blasphemy to say this but people should also go back and look at several assists by Magic Johnson as well. There were games I would watch and think that he had a good game with 9 assist only to see the box score say 16 assists or the like.
This is why I get so ticked by people who dislike guys like Hollinger and their "made up stats" but then turn around and lean on the "tried and true" numbers of assists, rebounds, steals and blocks, all of which are very much subjective.

The Rondo video above shows it's not just about fudging, it's an outright lie in some cases. There are specific rules on assists, rules that stat keepers are supposed to follow.

Maybe as the Stat-fest at MIT games momentum and acceptance you'll see more scrutiny placed on stat-keeping. IMO they should be monitored and reviewed just as much as the refs.

It would be nice if scorekeepers got called out with video examples like the one above. How long would it be before they got a lot more serious about it if public humiliation were at stake.

Sure there are mistakes, but your job is to simply watch the same type of game night after night and track it. If you can't do it then hire me because I'd be more than happy to do that job.


I'd also expect things like Synergy to start to debunk or properly establish improved stats.

And for the record Bill Simmons has championed the hockey assist and the led-to-foul assist, which I agree on. If you had that they Rondo would have earned a quality hockey assist and that's not a bad thing.

Nuntius
03-10-2012, 06:02 PM
Yes, we have one, or two immobile bigs.
That is a concern.

Our only mobile big is Lou Amundson. That's not necessarily a concern. It's a different style of play.

Naptown_Seth
03-10-2012, 06:19 PM
Cause we lack the personnel to do this.
Yeah, if only we had a David West type or a wing that could shoot the 3.


Collison's 12 assists vs the Pacers:

West 18ft jumper
West 21ft jumper
Okafur layup
West layup
Peja layup

Thorton 3PM
West 12ft jumper
Peja 15ft jumper
West layup
Peterson 3PM

West 16ft jumper
Okafur 14ft jumper

So of the 12 assists, HALF of them were with West, and 5 of them were for mid-long jumpers which West is still making regularly.

Can Roy really not get a layup and one 14ft jumper? I've seen him doing it in this system.

And I'm pretty sure Paul and Danny can hit 3s as well as Thornton and Peterson. That leaves 2 to Peja, neither of which was a 3.


So it's not "the system". It had A LOT MORE to do with "please use Watson, Ford, Head, and Murphy for 20-30 minutes each to "defend" PnRs or just general dribble attacks. And then have JOB insist on 27 3PA which resulted in 17 long rebounds, and have guys like Troy play his entire offense away from the rim


Here are the 12 defensive boards by Collison (of his 13)

Troy misses 18ft
Danny misses 7ft
Okafur blocks Watson
Granger misses 3PA
Hibbert misses layup

Troy misses 3PA
Dunleavy misses 3PA
Rush misses 3PA
Granger misses 17ft
Troy misses 3PA

Troy misses 19ft
Watson misses layup

So 8 of his 12 defensive rebounds came on long jumpers, 5 of them on 3 point misses. A 9th board was just collecting Watson's shot being blocked.



So it wasn't about New Orleans style that night nearly as much as it was about the JOB style and roster. If you can get Watson to follow the Pacers as the opponents starter every night and have the other team take 25-30 3pt shots, then DC might just put up some more trip-dubs.


This also shows why we actually were happy to see DC on the team, just look at that PG/SG rotation.

Naptown_Seth
03-10-2012, 06:28 PM
3 of em....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB_vcYPsXbY
Good post. And even the pump fake or spin counts as an assist because you put the ball to the guy in that spot and he went up into his shot very quickly. Maybe one dribble reset, no floor position change. Standard rules for an assist. It's about putting the guy into his scoring spot, just like Reggie pump faking first after a curl catch wouldn't remove the Jax assist.

I saw 2 assists that were generous, both where the player took 2-3 dribbles to get to another spot and shoot. The rest were a series of awesome passes, several breathtaking ones.

Sookie
03-10-2012, 06:50 PM
The system can, and does, play a very big part in a point guard's assist total.

The problem is the huge focus on statistics as opposed to just watching the game.

You know why so few young guards can throw a perfect entry pass into the post? Why would they learn? You don't get any stat for that. So what if it helps your team.

That offense, revolved around a ball dominant point guard dribbling the air out of the ball until he found someone in the PnR for a jumper, or found an open shot. Do you know how easy that is to stop in the playoffs. (Heck, teams stop LEBRON from doing that in the playoffs)..but who cares, it gets you assists. Totally a valid indication of play.

Nuntius
03-10-2012, 07:23 PM
Yeah, if only we had a David West type or a wing that could shoot the 3.


Collison's 12 assists vs the Pacers:

West 18ft jumper
West 21ft jumper
Okafur layup
West layup
Peja layup

Thorton 3PM
West 12ft jumper
Peja 15ft jumper
West layup
Peterson 3PM

West 16ft jumper
Okafur 14ft jumper

So of the 12 assists, HALF of them were with West, and 5 of them were for mid-long jumpers which West is still making regularly.

Can Roy really not get a layup and one 14ft jumper? I've seen him doing it in this system.

And I'm pretty sure Paul and Danny can hit 3s as well as Thornton and Peterson. That leaves 2 to Peja, neither of which was a 3.


So it's not "the system". It had A LOT MORE to do with "please use Watson, Ford, Head, and Murphy for 20-30 minutes each to "defend" PnRs or just general dribble attacks. And then have JOB insist on 27 3PA which resulted in 17 long rebounds, and have guys like Troy play his entire offense away from the rim


I was not referring to this game in particular (despite of the thread) but I'll answer. By the way, nice research :)

Can Roy hit a layup and a 15 footer? Of course, he can. He won't, though. Why? Because to hit a layup you have to cut to the basket. Roy will not cut to the basket. Why? Because we don't work that way.

Yeah, West will still hit the 15 footer. Actually, that's a large part of DC's assist. Cause most other players hesitate to shoot. I just watched the Skiles' video. There's no doubt that Skiles was an amazing PG and several of his passes were breathtaking. Do you know what else I saw though? I saw that his teammates actually shot the ball when he passed to them. They didn't hesitate.

Hesitation is a part of our offensive plan. We hesitate, pump fake and then drive to the basket to get a closer and better look. Nothing wrong with that. Actually, it's good basketball. It will just result in a lot less assists per FGM than Boston and Toronto.

Also, it's much easier to assist Lou Amundson than Roy Hibbert. Roy is double-teamed and denied post position most of the time. When Roy receives with his back to the basket he'll look for the cut first and if there's no one to pass to he will take 2-3 dribbles and attempt to shoot it. When Lou receives the ball he will probably already be on a cut towards the hoop and he will shoot it straight away.