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Pacergeek
03-07-2012, 08:01 PM
I have been a big supporter of Tyler, but we can no longer have him in the rotation. To put it lightly, he has been a disappointment this season. He was supposed to be that guy off the bench that provides "instant offense". Tyler has failed in this role, and his 38% FG proves this. It is frustrating watching the offense stop whenever Tyler gets the ball, as he is almost certain to shoot. Having a player with the mind-set of only shooting the ball is not conducive to winning basketball. Tyler has the green light to shoot whenever he wants, but the light needs to go to red asap. As to whom should get Tyler's minutes, I really don't know if that guy exists on the current roster. That is up to Vogel and Bird to decide. In conclusion, our bench will continue to struggle if Tyler is our go-to guy

PacerPenguins
03-07-2012, 08:03 PM
I have been a big supporter of Tyler, but we can no longer have him in the rotation. To put it lightly, he has been a disappointment this season. He was supposed to be that guy off the bench that provides "instant offense". Tyler has failed in this role, and his 38% FG proves this. It is frustrating watching the offense stop whenever Tyler gets the ball, as he is almost certain to shoot. Having a player with the mind-set of only shooting the ball is not conducive to winning basketball. Tyler has the green light to shoot whenever he wants, but the light needs to go to red asap. As to whom should get Tyler's minutes, I really don't know if that guy exists on the current roster. That is up to Vogel and Bird to decide. In conclusion, our bench will continue to struggle if Tyler is our go-to guy

dannys shooting 38%... u want to bench him too? Also we don't have anyone to play tylers position

Pacergeek
03-07-2012, 08:08 PM
dannys shooting 38%... u want to bench him too? Also we don't have anyone to play tylers position

No, I don't want Danny benched. He is our best scorer, and we have witnessed how bad we are when Danny doesn't play.

KingGeorge
03-07-2012, 08:15 PM
Tyler is a good ball player. He is just in a slump that every basketball player will hit at one time or another. I think he is struggling this year because he isn't playing the same intense, scrappy attitude. If we are able to get a scorer off the bench, it would really help Tyler's game. I still believe Tyler could be a valuable asset to this team in years to come.

Pacergeek
03-07-2012, 08:20 PM
Tyler is a good ball player. He is just in a slump that every basketball player will hit at one time or another. I think he is struggling this year because he isn't playing the same intense, scrappy attitude. If we are able to get a scorer off the bench, it would really help Tyler's game. I still believe Tyler could be a valuable asset to this team in years to come.

I hope that you are right, but the "slump" has been going on far too long. I am no longer going to consider this a slump. Like what Peck said, defenses have adjusted to Tyler, and he has failed to make counter-adjustments. I am a big fan of Tyler, but coaches need to figure out how to use him differently. Tyler as the "instant offense" guy has failed.

gummy
03-07-2012, 08:24 PM
I don't think we need to take away all of Tyler's minutes. But I wouldn't mind seeing Lou eat into them significantly at this point. Hill, when healthy, is the go-to guy off the bench right now.

Clearly we need an upgraded bench though. In my ideal scenario we pick up Kaman to backup Hibbert, slide Lou over to PF backup full-time where he splits minutes in that role with Tyler for a couple of weeks so we can decide to give the majority/all of the minutes to (probably Lou, from all indications), and we somehow snag a point guard upgrade and have DC come off the bench.

That's a Collison-Hill-Jones-Admundson-Kaman bench. AJ, Lance, and Tyler (whomever among them is still here, that is) take a seat at the far end of the bench next to Pendergraph and Foster. I don't know how he'd take it, but like many others I think DC goes from being in the bottom half of starting point guards to the top 5 of backup point guards instantly. He could shine in that role if he is mentally on board with it. The kid has nice little stop and pop mid-range game and a developing floater in the lane. Hill can be more of a facilitator with that group. If anyone can sell it, I think Vogel can. With this bunch, I'd say Collison and Hill split the main go-to guy designation, with some sprinkling of Kaman down low. This line-up would be a bit small at the point and on the wings, but I think that's OK most nights, and we can mix them in with the starters - PG could play with them at times instead of Jones, for example.

Of course the point guard upgrade is probably a pipe dream right now, unless we think swapping Hill into the starting lineup and putting DC with the bench crew will do it. I think it would provide a spark short-term, but it's not a long-term solution. I still think acquiring Kaman and sliding Lou into the PF spot would be really helpful though.

yoadknux
03-07-2012, 08:25 PM
He took a step back in my opinion. Last year his offense was a lot more consistent and I'm not talking about the FG%. Last year the "Hansbrough Go to move" was a mid range shot with his weird shooting motion. For some reason this year this play doesn't happen at all. Not sure what has changed.
Anyway, we can't and shouldn't take him out of the rotation. First because our frontcourt isn't really loaded and no one else deserves these minutes. Second because I don't believe it's going to have a positive effect on him.

Pacergeek
03-07-2012, 08:26 PM
I actually think DC would thrive in Tyler's role of "instant offense" from the second unit.

BlueNGold
03-07-2012, 08:46 PM
While Tyler might be #4 on our depth at the 4 and 5 spots, we still need him to play. Also, Lou isn't playing that much better. Lately he has, but there was a period early when Lou was looking bad. He's definitely playing well of late though. Still, Tyler is needed as long as there is no better alternative. We are already thin...

sportfireman
03-07-2012, 08:50 PM
I don't think we need to take away all of Tyler's minutes. But I wouldn't mind seeing Lou eat into them significantly at this point. Hill, when healthy, is the go-to guy off the bench right now.

Clearly we need an upgraded bench though. In my ideal scenario we pick up Kaman to backup Hibbert, slide Lou over to PF backup full-time where he splits minutes in that role with Tyler for a couple of weeks so we can decide to give the majority/all of the minutes to (probably Lou, from all indications), and we somehow snag a point guard upgrade and have DC come off the bench.

That's a Collison-Hill-Jones-Admundson-Kaman bench. AJ, Lance, and Tyler (whomever among them is still here, that is) take a seat at the far end of the bench next to Pendergraph and Foster. I don't know how he'd take it, but like many others I think DC goes from being in the bottom half of starting point guards to the top 5 of backup point guards instantly. He could shine in that role if he is mentally on board with it. The kid has nice little stop and pop mid-range game and a developing floater in the lane. Hill can be more of a facilitator with that group. If anyone can sell it, I think Vogel can. With this bunch, I'd say Collison and Hill split the main go-to guy designation, with some sprinkling of Kaman down low. This line-up would be a bit small at the point and on the wings, but I think that's OK most nights, and we can mix them in with the starters - PG could play with them at times instead of Jones, for example.

Of course the point guard upgrade is probably a pipe dream right now, unless we think swapping Hill into the starting lineup and putting DC with the bench crew will do it. I think it would provide a spark short-term, but it's not a long-term solution. I still think acquiring Kaman and sliding Lou into the PF spot would be really helpful though.

Quick question if they are all on the bench, who is the starting PG?

croz24
03-07-2012, 09:01 PM
No, I don't want Danny benched. He is our best scorer, and we have witnessed how bad we are when Danny doesn't play.

Pretty sad when your best scorer is shooting 38% and has declined in fg% every year of his career. So basically, this board asserts Danny is our best scorer for the simple fact he takes the most shots.

BlueNGold
03-07-2012, 09:34 PM
Pretty sad when your best scorer is shooting 38% and has declined in fg% every year of his career. So basically, this board asserts Danny is our best scorer for the simple fact he takes the most shots.

I'm no Granger fan, but he's still our best player. George Hill is actually a lot closer then people think though.

But for those paying attention, Paul George is in the very early stages of taking the reigns.

CableKC
03-07-2012, 09:51 PM
Why do I have a feeling that this thread is going to devolve into another "AJ vs. Lance" threads?

Pacer Fan
03-07-2012, 09:57 PM
Pretty sad when your best scorer is shooting 38% and has declined in fg% every year of his career. So basically, this board asserts Danny is our best scorer for the simple fact he takes the most shots.

I get what your saying. I'd just say that he is the best proven scorer on the Pacers hands down. Hill has not proven anything yet and his history suggest that he is not a reliable scorer / shooter so until he has proved he can do it he is not Pacers best option. Paul sure the hell isn't. Unfortunately, Pacers are just that bad where there isn't a better option then Danny. I wish this wasn't the case, but it is what it is!

HC
03-07-2012, 10:04 PM
Pretty sad when your best scorer is shooting 38% and has declined in fg% every year of his career. So basically, this board asserts Danny is our best scorer for the simple fact he takes the most shots.

He has been on the decline of late, but didn't Danny double production from his 1st to 2nd season, and then again from his 2nd to 3rd season? Makes his decline that much harder to watch. My biggest problem is his shot selection, of course that is easy to scrutinize from the sidelines.

PR07
03-07-2012, 10:26 PM
Reducing his minutes is one thing. Flat out benching him is another. For a young player that is struggling, I'm not sure that's the best way to get him going and to restore confidence.

Unclebuck
03-07-2012, 10:30 PM
Who said Tyler was supposed to provide instant offense? No one.

Energy, effort, hustle, physical ness, smash mouth basketball? Absolutely. So if he isn't providing us those things feel free to bench him, but Do not bench him for poor shooting

ksuttonjr76
03-07-2012, 10:33 PM
Honestly, I'm starting to feel that Hansbrough is not our guy, and we should REALLY look into trading him for something better. When I look at Tyler, I haven't notice that much has changed with his game. He still plays like the same player that we drafted in 2009. With all the other rookies I saw some type of "growth". Heck, even Brandon Rush had his moments of growth. Tyler is still college Tyler.

croz24
03-07-2012, 10:34 PM
He has been on the decline of late, but didn't Danny double production from his 1st to 2nd season, and then again from his 2nd to 3rd season? Makes his decline that much harder to watch. My biggest problem is his shot selection, of course that is easy to scrutinize from the sidelines.

46.2% - 45.9% - 44.6% - 44.7% - 42.8% - 42.5% - 38.7%

His production in terms of points did go up, but that's more a reflection of an increase in shots per game than better production. For comparison sake, Reggie took more than 15fga/gm TWICE in his career with a high of 15.7fga/gm. Danny has taken more than 15fga/gm each of the last 5 years with a high of 19.1fga/gm. And based on his %s, he simply should not be taking that amount of shots. If he's forced to based on a lack of supporting talent, then Bird needs to address that. But imo, it's more of Granger having poor shot selection more times than not, and a lack of movement without the basketball.

croz24
03-07-2012, 10:42 PM
Reducing his minutes is one thing. Flat out benching him is another. For a young player that is struggling, I'm not sure that's the best way to get him going and to restore confidence.

Young in terms of experience maybe, but Hansbrough at 26 is one of our older players. His game hasn't changed in the 7 years since I saw him as a senior in high school at Hinkle, and I doubt it ever will.

BlueNGold
03-07-2012, 10:46 PM
If we bench Tyler, who exactly is going to play the backup 4 and 5 positions? Is Lou going to man both of them? I think we know Roy isn't worth more than 30 minutes...and are we going to play West 40 minutes every game...on those surgically repaired knees?

I'm not defending Tyler but just wonder what alternative people have in mind. I suppose Granger could play spot minutes there and shift Lance into the rotation. That might actually help. Have George Hill start at SG. Paul at SF. Danny at PF. Have Roy and DWest share the 5.

Sandman21
03-07-2012, 11:33 PM
I think Tyler is trying to play through an injury that he is not talking about. To anyone.

Eleazar
03-07-2012, 11:46 PM
I don't know what to do, but i know something needs to change with him.

gummy
03-07-2012, 11:50 PM
Quick question if they are all on the bench, who is the starting PG?

Someone who is an upgrade from Collison in terms of passing and court vision (and preferably a few inches taller too). ;)

I don't actually think we're going to get that someone before the deadline, so like I said - the point guard upgrade part is probably a pipe dream, so I didn't bother to throw specific names out there. Who would I most like to have? Rajon Rondo or Derron Williams. But we'll likely have to settle for less of an upgrade, eh?

gummy
03-07-2012, 11:58 PM
If we bench Tyler, who exactly is going to play the backup 4 and 5 positions? Is Lou going to man both of them? I think we know Roy isn't worth more than 30 minutes...and are we going to play West 40 minutes every game...on those surgically repaired knees?

I'm not defending Tyler but just wonder what alternative people have in mind. I suppose Granger could play spot minutes there and shift Lance into the rotation. That might actually help. Have George Hill start at SG. Paul at SF. Danny at PF. Have Roy and DWest share the 5.

David had surgery on only one knee...or am I missing something about his history?

I for one don't advocate benching Tyler at this time because you're right, there isn't a good alternative for replacing all of his minutes. I'm not sure I like the idea of Danny sliding over to the 4 for spot minutes and giving Lance a bigger role in the rotation. Not dead set against either, just not enthusiastic. I would like to see Lou taking 5-10 of his minutes right now, because Tyler has been bad for the bulk of the year and so far if he's not scoring he is not bringing us all those energy/hustle intangibles either.

Now if we make a move for a back-up center (Kaman, I hope) then I would be open to benching Tyler in favor of Lou.

vnzla81
03-08-2012, 12:07 AM
Someone who is an upgrade from Collison in terms of passing and court vision (and preferably a few inches taller too). ;)

I don't actually think we're going to get that someone before the deadline, so like I said - the point guard upgrade part is probably a pipe dream, so I didn't bother to throw specific names out there. Who would I most like to have? Rajon Rondo or Derron Williams. But we'll likely have to settle for less of an upgrade, eh?

Stop hating our players!!!!! :tsk:

Gotcha ;)

CJ Jones
03-08-2012, 12:55 AM
Why do I have a feeling that this thread is going to devolve into another "AJ vs. Lance" threads?

Why? Lance isn't even playing... :confused:

Asher99
03-08-2012, 01:59 AM
Threads like this crack me up.

If we don't give the ball to whoever else we get they aren't going to do anything major either, Since the improve the offense practice Tyler has taken 160 shots over 25 or 6.4 shots a game. Since that practice we are just 14-11 after a 12-3 start while giving up a ton more PPG and wrecking our bench.

Over those 25 games Tyler has been given what is considered high usage getting 14 or more FGA/FTA, In those games 5 high usage times and he's shooting 50% from the field averaging 14.4 PPG. In the other 20 games where he's not doing anything he's taking just 5.15 average shots per game. Nobody is putting up big numbers taking that few shots a game.

People want to think Kamen is a quick smooth fix but He's getting .97 points a shot with a supporting cast and Vasquez/Jack passing him the ball a ton, Tyler is getting 1.2 points per FG attempt with him being the main focus of the defense with no real passing threat on our second unit.

CJ Jones
03-08-2012, 02:09 AM
Threads like this crack me up.

If we don't give the ball to whoever else we get they aren't going to do anything major either, Since the improve the offense practice Tyler has taken 160 shots over 25 or 6.4 shots a game. Since that practice we are just 14-11 after a 12-3 start while giving up a ton more PPG and wrecking our bench.

Over those 25 games Tyler has been given what is considered high usage getting 14 or more FGA/FTA, In those games 5 high usage times and he's shooting 50% from the field averaging 14.4 PPG. In the other 20 games where he's not doing anything he's taking just 5.15 average shots per game. Nobody is putting up big numbers taking that few shots a game.

People want to think Kamen is a quick smooth fix but He's getting .97 points a shot with a supporting cast and Vasquez/Jack passing him the ball a ton, Tyler is getting 1.2 points per FG attempt with him being the main focus of the defense with no real passing threat on our second unit.

Good post. I like Tyler but he's struggling.

There's more to this game then just scoring though.

Asher99
03-08-2012, 02:31 AM
Good post. I like Tyler but he's struggling.

There's more to this game then just scoring though.

He is no doubt struggling but he's struggling while not getting to truly play his game. When used like a top level 6th man he preforms like a high lever 6th man. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know giving Tyler less shots and having most all of those be Jumpers or get the ball 12-14 feet out in his post ups isn't going to work out.

Tyler is never going to be a great defender but I also think people make to much of his defense. When coached to do something he takes it to the extreme so if the Coaching staff doesn't want him to do the whole leave his guy to pick up someone else and rush back to his man or block out the next closest guy open offensive player even if not his guy bit he wouldn't always be doing it non-stop every game.

presto123
03-08-2012, 05:54 AM
All of us that wanted to keep Josh over Tyler are being proven right this year. I don't care if Josh isn't getting playing time in LA. The offense flows better with him here as he was one of our best passers and heaven knows we need more of those. I would take Josh over Lou as well. Josh got a raw deal from the Pacers. Not looking so good now is it Larry?

Asher99
03-08-2012, 06:05 AM
All of us that wanted to keep Josh over Tyler are being proven right this year. I don't care if Josh isn't getting playing time in LA. The offense flows better with him here as he was one of our best passers and heaven knows we need more of those. I would take Josh over Lou as well. Josh got a raw deal from the Pacers. Not looking so good now is it Larry?

I'm sure the Lakers would love to send us back Josh for Tyler, Trade machine says we would lose 2 wins and they would gain 3 so maybe we can get a pick back in the deal as well especially if they move Pau. Tyler is 12th in bench points and the 7th in bench rebounds in this terrible year, so I doubt Larry sees it your way.

Ant
03-08-2012, 07:11 AM
The thread is mistitled, but i think most of us can agree.. We need to trade DC and Hans while we can and still make some kind of profit. They seem like glaring weaknesses.. Let Hill, AJ, Lance run the point, we will NOT be worse off. That might actually be an improvement!! Amundson/Foster take Tylers minutes, then we plug in what we get back from the trade..

Ant
03-08-2012, 07:19 AM
In retrospect, the DC/Murph trade seemed almost too good to be true... I think it was. I wish Collison was not a part of our basketball organization. We need a facilitating pg with good court vision for the team we have assembled. DC meets neither of those criteria...

Justin Tyme
03-08-2012, 09:07 AM
All of us that wanted to keep Josh over Tyler are being proven right this year. I don't care if Josh isn't getting playing time in LA. The offense flows better with him here as he was one of our best passers and heaven knows we need more of those. I would take Josh over Lou as well. Josh got a raw deal from the Pacers. Not looking so good now is it Larry?


I understand your view that maybe McBob got a raw deal, but I don't see McBob head and shoulders over Lou. You are discounting McBob's DNP's from a team in dire need of bigs and a bench. There must be a reason why McBob isn't getting any PT, yet you gloss right over the fact as it's no big deal.

As far as the McBob over Hansbro comment I'm not a Hansbro fan, he wasn't my pick in the draft either, but even with his trials at present I'd take Hansbro over McBob everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. I'll take his blue collar work in the trenches over highlite reel dunks, fancy pass here and there, and behind the back dribbling. All that obviously hasn't impressed the Laker either!

As far as it not looking so good Larry? I'd say it's looking better for Bird than what it is for McBob. Maybe Bird knew what the Lakers have found out.

Justin Tyme
03-08-2012, 09:25 AM
If we bench Tyler, who exactly is going to play the backup 4 and 5 positions? Is Lou going to man both of them? I think we know Roy isn't worth more than 30 minutes...and are we going to play West 40 minutes every game...on those surgically repaired knees?


There was a reason why Pendergraph was signed. I recall he had a decent rookie year when getting PT in Portland. I also recall Vogel talking about in pre-season practice he was a bull on the boards. Maybe if Vogel eased JP into some PT, besides garbage PT, he could be a contributor at the PF. Why is he on the bench if he's not good enough to contribute? I just think at the present time with Tyler struggling throwing some minutes at JP shouldn't be dismissed. If he can reb, play "D", and bang bodies, then give it a try. Any scoring would just be a plus in those minutes he's given. I don't see him any worse than Solo was, and the answer to help out while Tyler is struggling might just be sitting on the end of the bench. JMOAA

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2012, 09:45 AM
I'm sure the Lakers would love to send us back Josh for Tyler, Trade machine says we would lose 2 wins and they would gain 3 so maybe we can get a pick back in the deal as well especially if they move Pau. Tyler is 12th in bench points and the 7th in bench rebounds in this terrible year, so I doubt Larry sees it your way.

Why do you keep posting made-up numbers, when they are so easily fact checked? He isn't 12th in bench scoring, and he isn't 7th in bench rebounding.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=mp_per_g_req&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=gs&c2comp=lt&c2val=10&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=trb_per_g

Asher99
03-08-2012, 10:13 AM
Mackey, Unfortunately or maybe fortunately in this case I seen your post while not logged in and In seeing it I noticed you still have a 2nd grade reading comprehension level as I said his ranks in bench points and rebounds and never said anything about per game and that indeed was his ranks heading into last nights slate of games.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring/qualified/false/split/128

http://www.rif.org/

ksuttonjr76
03-08-2012, 10:35 AM
Mackey, Unfortunately or maybe fortunately in this case I seen your post while not logged in and In seeing it I noticed you still have a 2nd grade reading comprehension level as I said his ranks in bench points and rebounds and never said anything about per game and that indeed was his ranks heading into last nights slate of games.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring/qualified/false/split/128

http://www.rif.org/

Who uses total points and rebounds as a way to define a players' production?????

EDIT:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/qualified/false/split/128

Tyler is not even in the Top 40 for PPG and is 31st in RPG among bench players. I'm not even going to worry about his PER48 stats. Although he has a "descent" PER, Tyler is not an IMPACT players. His numbers are pretty much the same regardless if we win or lose.

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2012, 10:55 AM
Mackey, Unfortunately or maybe fortunately in this case I seen your post while not logged in and In seeing it I noticed you still have a 2nd grade reading comprehension level as I said his ranks in bench points and rebounds and never said anything about per game and that indeed was his ranks heading into last nights slate of games.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring/qualified/false/split/128

http://www.rif.org/

You're right, reading is fun. I enjoy challenges. That's why I had a really good time reading this post. You absolutely butchered every aspect of the English language.

If we ignore the fact that every single means of determining league leaders in a category, is based upon per game numbers, you still have it wrong. According to your own link, he is 9th in total rebounds, not 7th. Now obviously, that's a really stupid figure to use considering that everybody has not played the same number of games.

Hell, 5 of the 8 who have more total rebounds than Hansbrough, have played more games than Tyler. On the surface, it wouldn't appear that you are doing him any favors by choosing this metric. Is it fair to compare Tyler against someone who has had 3 more games to add to his rebound collection? I certainly don't think it is. Of course, all 5 of of them also have better per game numbers as well, so I suppose I can understand why you did choose this inane method of comparison.

I was actually trying to help your cause out. I factored out the guys who have started more than 10 games, so someone like Tony Allen who got 8 rebounds in the only game he came off the bench, doesn't count against him. On a per game basis, he's 31st on your list. Thank God, he isn't really that bad. Many of the guys above him are actually starters.

An all-around bad effort on your part. Not only did you try to prove a fallacy, you chose an essentially fallacious way to do it.

Asher99
03-08-2012, 11:04 AM
Who uses total points and rebounds as a way to define a players' production?????

Clearly I do when talking numbers of players coming off the bench, and for Mackey don't waste you time bro...


03-08-2012 08:55 AM
Mackey_Rose
Re: Please bench Tyler
This user is on your Ignore List.

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2012, 11:16 AM
Clarey I do when talking numbers of players coming off the bench, and for Mackey don't waste you time bro...


03-08-2012 08:55 AM
Mackey_Rose
Re: Please bench Tyler
This user is on your Ignore List.

That's how you make a strong argument, folks. You have proven yourself as an elite debater. Abe & Stephen would be proud.

Well done, sir.

BRushWithDeath
03-08-2012, 11:29 AM
That's how you make a strong argument, folks. You have proven yourself as an elite debater. Abe & Stephen would be proud.

Well done, sir.

If making up completely inaccurate stats isn't good debate tactics, I don't know what is.

Pacer Fan
03-08-2012, 11:51 AM
Please give Tyler help in the paint other then a splash of West and Lou!

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2012, 12:22 PM
Who used inaccurate or made up stats, what I posted was accurate and very much a stat. Only issue was the fact have a very special simpleton who just happens to be an Illiterate dullard onto top of being a world class Jackass.

Where is Graham when you need him?

Using your invented (FGA + FTA) statistic, it's pretty easy to determine that Tyler isn't having any real impact on wins and losses. He's just out there.

He averages 11.8 (FGA + FTA) in wins, and 11.8 (FGA + FTA) in losses.

Justin Tyme
03-08-2012, 12:40 PM
Who used inaccurate or made up stats, what I posted was accurate and very much a stat. Only issue was the fact have a very special simpleton who just happens to be an Illiterate dullard onto top of being a world class Jackass.


This forum has stupped to name calling now!!!

Hicks
03-08-2012, 12:47 PM
This forum has stupped to name calling now!!!

I don't know about "the forum", but occasionally individuals choose to do so, and more often than not we respond to those posts.

Pacer Fan
03-08-2012, 12:50 PM
I don't know about "the forum", but occasionally individuals choose to do so, and more often than not we respond to those posts.

I can attest to that, choosing the wrong wording! ;)

Asher99
03-08-2012, 01:01 PM
This forum has stupped to name calling now!!!

Well I did go out of my way to avoid calling anyone out by name, Sorry if that description was so spot on it gave it away.

Justin Tyme
03-08-2012, 01:19 PM
Well I did go out of my way to avoid calling anyone out by name,

Sorry if that description was so spot on it gave it away.




No you didn't!

AND no you aren't.

ksuttonjr76
03-08-2012, 01:23 PM
Where is Graham when you need him?

Using your invented (FGA + FTA) statistic, it's pretty easy to determine that Tyler isn't having any real impact on wins and losses. He's just out there.

He averages 11.8 (FGA + FTA) in wins, and 11.8 (FGA + FTA) in losses.

Kinda the same observation that I made in my previous post.

ksuttonjr76
03-08-2012, 01:30 PM
Clarey I do when talking numbers of players coming off the bench, and for Mackey don't waste you time bro...


03-08-2012 08:55 AM
Mackey_Rose
Re: Please bench Tyler
This user is on your Ignore List.

Mackey already made the case why that's a flawed concept, so I won't repeat it again....

Asher99
03-08-2012, 03:03 PM
Tyler is not even in the Top 40 for PPG and is 31st in RPG among bench players.

What type of minimum appearances are you using? That's a big reason for using the season totals. He's 31st in bench RPG but 6 of the guys came off the bench 2 or less games and many more are slightly above that. Tyler was over 10 boards a game after 3 games so in a small game total his numbers would be inflated, but he's came off the bench close to 40 games so players in that group can get hit and run inflated numbers with a few good games.

I would say you need to at least set the minimum for bench players at 30 games or 75% or some range in there because it would be silly if Tyler started and had another 30 point game and I came in here saying he was the leagues leading scorer.

Dgreenwell3
03-08-2012, 03:10 PM
How old are we for christs sake?

ksuttonjr76
03-08-2012, 03:14 PM
What type of minimum appearances are you using? That's a big reason for using the season totals. He's 31st in bench RPG but 6 of the guys came off the bench 2 or less games and many more are slightly above that. Tyler was over 10 boards a game after 3 games so in a small game total his numbers would be inflated, but he's came off the bench close to 40 games so players in that group can get hit and run inflated numbers with a few good games.

I would say you need to at least set the minimum for bench players at 30 games or 75% or some range in there because it would be silly if Tyler started and had another 30 point game and I came in here saying he was the leagues leading scorer.

You'll have to ask ESPN. I just click on the hyperlink that says "Qualified"...

Asher99
03-08-2012, 03:17 PM
Mackey already made the case why that's a flawed concept, so I won't repeat it again....

Averages are averages. His total average may be just under 12 FGA/FTA but its not like he's getting that number night in and night out. Some nights its well above that and he has his real good games and some he's well below that and he gets the nothing happening games. He's only had 1 bad game failing to reach double figures when giving that amount of usage and a few when falling short of the total.


You'll have to ask ESPN. I just click on the hyperlink that says "Qualified"...

ESPN doesn't have a Qualified tab for the bench, you're forced to use some objectivity.


No you didn't!

AND no you aren't.

No I didn't mention names for a reason, but you could be right on the second point.

Mackey_Rose
03-08-2012, 05:14 PM
Averages are averages. His total average may be just under 12 FGA/FTA but its not like he's getting that number night in and night out. Some nights its well above that and he has his real good games and some he's well below that and he gets the nothing happening games. He's only had 1 bad game failing to reach double figures when giving that amount of usage and a few when falling short of the total.

James Harden averages 16.5 in the made-up (FGA + FTA) stat. From now on, we'll just call this meaningless stat the Asher, since you invented it.

Averages are used for a reason. You don't need to bother explaining to us what an average is. We know. We know that just becuase Harden averages 16.5 Ashers per game, he doesn't get exactly 16.5 Ashers every single night. Until you add into your silly little metric, some way for him to take half a shot, it will be impossible for him to reach his quota. Stop making things impossible for James Harden to do.

It stands to reason that just by standard play, when any player is playing well, he'll end up getting more shots. If he's making shots, he's not only naturally inclined to shoot more, but his teammates will be looking to get him shots. By this reasoning, if a player is hitting the basket, he'll end up getting more Ashers. Hence, in general, as a player gets more Ashers per game, he'll end up scoring more points per game.

Once again, you've dropped some brilliance on us. Players who make more shots, take more shots. Players who take more shots, score more points. I wouldn't even want to try to refute that moment of genius. Ball don't lie, yo.


ESPN doesn't have a Qualified tab for the bench, you're forced to use some objectivity.

I already did this for you. In my list, I disqualified all players who started 10 or more games, played in fewer than 30 games, and didn't qualify for the minutes per game leader board. I should warn you, that minutes per game leader board is based on an average. Some of these players on the list have had games where they might have played more or fewer minutes than they average. Mind blowing.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=mp_per_g_req&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=30&c2stat=gs&c2comp=lt&c2val=10&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=trb

Using total rebounds (which is unbelievably stupid anyway) Tyler has the 12th most rebounds off the bench. He has played fewer games than almost everybody that is ahead of him on the list, so it really isn't fair to Tyler to compare him this way. He hasn't had as many games to add to his total, but like you say, averages are just averages.


No I didn't mention names for a reason, but you could be right on the second point.

You are, without a doubt, a master of subtlety, yo.

immortality
03-08-2012, 05:33 PM
I wonder how much fun Mackey had while trying to write that post.

ksuttonjr76
03-08-2012, 06:30 PM
I wonder how much fun Mackey had while trying to write that post.

LOL...I never seen him so fired up before.

Drewtone
03-08-2012, 06:34 PM
What type of minimum appearances are you using? That's a big reason for using the season totals. He's 31st in bench RPG but 6 of the guys came off the bench 2 or less games and many more are slightly above that. Tyler was over 10 boards a game after 3 games so in a small game total his numbers would be inflated, but he's came off the bench close to 40 games so players in that group can get hit and run inflated numbers with a few good games.


Let me preface this by saying I'm a big Tyler fan, and I'm presently more concerned with the issues UB is talking about (where's the hustle, grabbing/stealing the rebounds, finding angles to get to the ball first, etc... he more often than not 'created his own touches' that way) than his shooting efficiency based on touched.

That said, speaking as someone who has to use coherent statistical analysis on a regular basis, the argument above makes no sense to me. Season total tells you nothing of value and would be more suseptible to outliers than per-game. A sample size of n=30 or greater is generally accepted as statistically significant, and beyond that, outliers should not pull the average up or down too much. If you're worried about that, try a z-score. Just throwing that out there.

JEM
03-08-2012, 07:25 PM
Outside of a few games Hansbroughs jumpshot has been terrible this year and last year it seemed the other way around when he shot 46%.

More touches in the post is what he needs IMO. Not behind the 3 pt line or 20 feet out..ect.

IndySDExport
03-08-2012, 07:44 PM
I don't know if I want to get into this debate or even think about taking the time to actually look up statistics...

But I wonder if it would be better to compare statistics extrapolated over 48 minutes rather than total numbers or per game averages to get a better comparison of bench player performance.

Nonetheless, I don't see the same passion coming out of Tyler on every play that I did last year. It's the energy that I'm lacking regardless of stats. Some days it's there somedays not so much. If he brought the fire, I'd care less about the stats.

pacer4ever
03-08-2012, 08:06 PM
Outside of a few games Hansbroughs jumpshot has been terrible this year and last year it seemed the other way around when he shot 46%.

More touches in the post is what he needs IMO. Not behind the 3 pt line or 20 feet out..ect.

problem is he cant get a shot off in the post. He normally gets blocked or flops and gets a call just like most people said he would before the draft. He doesn't have the skill level to play in the post imo.

xBulletproof
03-08-2012, 08:19 PM
03-08-2012 08:55 AM
Mackey_Rose
Re: Please bench Tyler
This user is on your Ignore List.

:laugh:

Last time I used ignore, it completely hid the persons posts. It doesn't show their name and replace their post with "This user is on your ignore list". WTF is this?

speakout4
03-08-2012, 08:25 PM
problem is he cant get a shot off in the post. He normally gets blocked or flops and gets a call just like most people said he would before the draft. He doesn't have the skill level to play in the post imo.
He needs some real coaching as he hasn't adjusted his bullish game. You are correct he can't get his shot off in the paint but doesn't pass out of a double team. If he doesn't learn some moves he's done. He's not the most athletic guy.

gummy
03-08-2012, 09:58 PM
He needs some real coaching as he hasn't adjusted his bullish game. You are correct he can't get his shot off in the paint but doesn't pass out of a double team. If he doesn't learn some moves he's done. He's not the most athletic guy.

I'd guess he is getting some real coaching. We know he's been told by Coach V that he needs to have more than one gear. Right now he only has one, set on go go go go hard all the time. Certainly mixing it up in that regard would help him. He also needs to develop a couple of reliable post moves. More than anything he just needs to stick the mid-range shot ala West, and, of course, get better on defense, court awareness, and rebounding. He has decent coaches and some player role models. He'll learn if he can.

jeffg-body
03-08-2012, 10:44 PM
Now I like Tyler's game and when he is in sync he is a pretty difficult player to deal with for opposing teams, but he is really struggling. I like the idea of playing Lou right now more minutes because he has been playing some good ball lately. Tyler might be worrying about the possibility of being traded or something like that but he seems mentally not there. I hope Tyler can get back to focusing on his game.

BillS
03-08-2012, 11:12 PM
:laugh:

Last time I used ignore, it completely hid the persons posts. It doesn't show their name and replace their post with "This user is on your ignore list". WTF is this?

Being a smart-a$$.

Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk

Asher99
03-08-2012, 11:34 PM
:laugh:

Last time I used ignore, it completely hid the persons posts. It doesn't show their name and replace their post with "This user is on your ignore list". WTF is this?

If you preview your post and look below in the "Topic Review" section to see if anything new has been added while typing.


I wonder how much fun Mackey had while trying to write that post.


LOL...I never seen him so fired up before.

He knows I can't see his post so honestly how dumb is the guy? This isn't calling him a name, this is a very legitimate question wondering how low his IQ must really be.


A sample size of n=30 or greater is generally accepted as statistically significant, and beyond that, outliers should not pull the average up or down too much. If you're worried about that, try a z-score. Just throwing that out there.

If you use 30 games as the minimum he's ranked 17th or 5 lower using total total points despite getting many less shots than others.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/qualified/false/split/128

After last night games he fell to 9th in Total rebounds but is 12th per game, .1 from being tied for 9th in Per game.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/rebounds/sort/avgRebounds/qualified/false/split/128

So we had all this drama for that little movement?

Naptown_Seth
03-08-2012, 11:44 PM
I'm no Granger fan, but he's still our best player. George Hill is actually a lot closer then people think though.

But for those paying attention, Paul George is just about taking the reigns.
I think my adjusted version is more accurate.


I get tired of the Danny bashing...kinda. He is working well, he normally defends pretty well and at times works his offense within the system.

And then he comes down on a TO and just clunks a horrible 1 on 2 low chance of success "layup" which then goes the other way for a score. Danny CAN be better than this and on some nights he is.


BTW, the ADJUSTED FG% (you know, because you get an extra point when you make a 3) and Points Per Shot (for FTAs drawn) for Tyler and Danny:

AdjFG%
Tyler .386
Danny .449

PPS
Tyler 1.227
Danny 1.177


Tyler has a REB% well below Roy, West, Foster AND Lou. His eFG% is just slightly better than Lou, and Lou is generally viewed as a horrible offensive player.

Tyler's AST% is 4.2, ranking 11th out of 13 (Pendy and Lou are worse).

Tyler and Danny are tied at 7th on the team in Steals rate = 2 per 100 opponent possessions. Paul George is 3rd at 2.8 for comparison, low use Jeff and Lance lead at 3.0 and 2.9.

And besides the meh rebounding you also have this problem (which is normal for Tyler), Danny is well ahead in shot blocks despite not being a PF himself. Danny is 5th at 1.7, Tyler is 9th at .07 which is the same block rate Collison carries.

Meanwhile Lou leads the team with a 5.9, partly due to low PT but still likely to remain much better than Tyler in increased minutes.


This is the issue, Tyler is more replaceable by Lou than Danny is by....? DJones is the option if you want to break up the Danny-Paul-Hill rotation. And Jones gives up size at the SF to a lot of guys, doesn't shoot better than Danny, and doesn't block or steal at a high rate.

Lou might be problematic in ways, but right now if Tyler is going to be horrible on offense AND defense then he needs to sit. Lou will at least give you a little push on the defensive end and he rebounds better.




* I know people don't want to hear it, but this is why you keep Josh. His numbers on the year are across the board better than Tyler - eFG% of .537, REB% 12.7, AST% 9.8, BLK% 2.4...he does lag in STL% at only 1.4

Dumb, dumb decision to go into this year thinking that after Roy and West you had this long list of depth...and this was PRIOR to the Rush for Lou deal even. Not the smartest time to go cheap, that's for sure. Josh could slump and Tyler picks it up, Tyler slump and Josh picks it up. It's so simple and obvious.


** also not a smart time to move the fan favorite competition with your favorite pet project...my theory only of course

Naptown_Seth
03-08-2012, 11:51 PM
LOL...I never seen him so fired up before.
My sarcasm is jealous of his sarcasm at this point.

Naptown_Seth
03-09-2012, 12:07 AM
He needs some real coaching as he hasn't adjusted his bullish game. You are correct he can't get his shot off in the paint but doesn't pass out of a double team. If he doesn't learn some moves he's done. He's not the most athletic guy.
Of course everyone knows this was my complaint at the time.

After the Pacers workout we heard this BS about his awesome vertical, to which I replied "Where the frak was it the last 4 years DURING GAMES then?"

So now we have plenty of actual games and virtually no vertical, above the rim power. No above the rim rebounding. No competent post moves EXCEPT (which I scouted this way) if you get him the ball in the low block quickly on transition because he then goes to the rim quickly and draws a foul. Good first step but after that there are no counter moves. The shots are below the shoulders flips. He's a foul begger, and more than any other big scoring frontline NCAA guys Tyler scored a high % of his points from the line.


And I kept pointing out his AGE. He's not a kid. He's been coached for many years prior to hitting the NBA. Guys statistically just DO NOT IMPROVE after age 25-26, it almost never happens. At some point the player you are is the player you will always be...barring steroids, etc. This was seen at Tyler-hate rather than my honest evaluation, but the thing is I didn't dislike him as a UNC player and I like UNC (and hate hate hate Duke). I just didn't think his game had any "this works in the NBA" aspects to it.


He's gotten by on hustle, but his defensive awareness, total lack of post moves, and inability to play above the rim is really kicking him (and the team) in the rear.


DERAIL COMING BEWARE (but come on, I deserve this rant)

BTW, Tyler at 20th pick, no problem. I never said don't get him, I just said don't get him as a high pick and don't think he's solving your POWER PF needs. Look at the price tag (by pick) for Blair vs his rebounding production. It continues to frustrate me that they overspent. 37th pick, REB%15.4, 22 years old.

Psst - Blair has missed ONE GAME in 3 years. So any minute now his Hines Ward knee should be giving out. :mad: Just like all the other ZERO examples of that condition that crapped out early because of it. Spurs probably did a covert campaign to lower his draft value.

Naptown_Seth
03-09-2012, 12:19 AM
Illiterate dullard
UNFAIR HICKS, you totally removed a very nice complement. Note that the "I" is capitalized. This is because it means "high ranking member of the Illuminati", and "dullard" is Gaelic (the Illuminati's favorite secret language) for "master strategist". Typically an Illiterate dullard was the person central to planning all Illuminati secret global power financial strategies, for example their recent, intentional takedown of the Euro and specifically the Greek economy.

I doubt this was actually Mackey that did this, and he couldn't admit it if it was, but if so then "Boiler Up" because it's darn impressive.





Made up stats I'm not so good at, but I'll make the **** up out of some etymology and political history. On the other hand I also think I just wrote Dan Brown's next book.

Asher99
03-09-2012, 12:23 AM
Josh has 31 points and 45 rebounds in the 35 Lakers games since Bynum's suspension so I'm sure the Lakers would no doubt swap us Tyler out for Josh if Bird gave them a call.

Hibbert
03-09-2012, 12:27 AM
Josh has 31 points and 45 rebounds in the 35 Lakers games since Bynum's suspension so I'm sure the Lakers would no doubt swap us Tyler out for Josh if Bird gave them a call.

What the hell are you talking about?

Asher99
03-09-2012, 12:41 AM
What the hell are you talking about?

Seth was talking about what Josh brings and how it was a mistake to let him walk, The Lakers would no doubt ship him back here for Tyler since they aren't using him much. Bird should give Mitch Kupchak a call and fix the mistake and make all the Josh fans happy, maybe his dunks would help attendance since winning isn't doing the trick.

Hibbert
03-09-2012, 12:45 AM
Seth was talking about what Josh brings and how it was a mistake to let him walk, The Lakers would no doubt ship him back here for Tyler since they aren't using him much. Bird should give Mitch Kupchak a call and fix the mistake and make all the Josh fans happy, maybe his dunks would help attendance since winning isn't doing the trick.

Not what I meant, your numbers are wrong. Josh hasn't even played in 35 games this year, 24 is more like it. He's not playing cause of the coach not cause he isn't any good. He did a very good job for us last year. Not his fault they hired a defensive assistant as their head coach.

Asher99
03-09-2012, 12:58 AM
Not what I meant, your numbers are wrong. Josh hasn't even played in 35 games this year, 24 is more like it. He's not playing cause of the coach not cause he isn't any good. He did a very good job for us last year. Not his fault they hired a defensive assistant as their head coach.

I know he hasn't played in all those games that's way I said "in the 35 Lakers games since Bynum's suspension" The point was to show they are never using him so he's available for sure. If he's this damn good and Tyler sucks so much then we should pounce of the deal! Trade machine says we would be two games worse and the Lakers would be 3 games better, but to quote this board Josh does all the little things that doesn't show up in the box score.

xBulletproof
03-09-2012, 01:03 AM
Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk

Omg I am sorry I can't stop laughing and forgive me for my sophomoric dirty mind, but you sent this from your "centimeter tenderloin"?!?! That sounds very ....... unfortunate. :laugh:

Hibbert
03-09-2012, 01:08 AM
I know he hasn't played in all those games that's way I said "in the 35 Lakers games since Bynum's suspension" The point was to show they are never using him so he's available for sure. If he's this damn good and Tyler sucks so much then we should pounce of the deal! Trade machine says we would be two games worse and the Lakers would be 3 games better, but to quote this board Josh does all the little things that doesn't show up in the box score.
Who said anything about trading Tyler? Those two on the same team was a good thing we had going for our bench. I wouldn't trade Tyler for Josh, not sure so many would.

Asher99
03-09-2012, 01:28 AM
Who said anything about trading Tyler?

I did, we would need to make some room at the forward spot and clear up some money so we aren't just taking on money to kill any bigger moves.

Mackey_Rose
03-09-2012, 09:34 AM
He knows I can't see his post so honestly how dumb is the guy? This isn't calling him a name, this is a very legitimate question wondering how low his IQ must really be.


Unfortunately, I'm going to have to kill Seth for outing me, but I appreciate the sentiment.

ksuttonjr76
03-09-2012, 11:32 AM
Of course everyone knows this was my complaint at the time.

After the Pacers workout we heard this BS about his awesome vertical, to which I replied "Where the frak was it the last 4 years DURING GAMES then?"

So now we have plenty of actual games and virtually no vertical, above the rim power. No above the rim rebounding. No competent post moves EXCEPT (which I scouted this way) if you get him the ball in the low block quickly on transition because he then goes to the rim quickly and draws a foul. Good first step but after that there are no counter moves. The shots are below the shoulders flips. He's a foul begger, and more than any other big scoring frontline NCAA guys Tyler scored a high % of his points from the line.


And I kept pointing out his AGE. He's not a kid. He's been coached for many years prior to hitting the NBA. Guys statistically just DO NOT IMPROVE after age 25-26, it almost never happens. At some point the player you are is the player you will always be...barring steroids, etc. This was seen at Tyler-hate rather than my honest evaluation, but the thing is I didn't dislike him as a UNC player and I like UNC (and hate hate hate Duke). I just didn't think his game had any "this works in the NBA" aspects to it.


He's gotten by on hustle, but his defensive awareness, total lack of post moves, and inability to play above the rim is really kicking him (and the team) in the rear.


DERAIL COMING BEWARE (but come on, I deserve this rant)

BTW, Tyler at 20th pick, no problem. I never said don't get him, I just said don't get him as a high pick and don't think he's solving your POWER PF needs. Look at the price tag (by pick) for Blair vs his rebounding production. It continues to frustrate me that they overspent. 37th pick, REB%15.4, 22 years old.

Psst - Blair has missed ONE GAME in 3 years. So any minute now his Hines Ward knee should be giving out. :mad: Just like all the other ZERO examples of that condition that crapped out early because of it. Spurs probably did a covert campaign to lower his draft value.

I'll be the first to admit that I was wrong about Tyler. Based on his physical attributes and pre-draft measurements, I was REALLY HOPING for a poor man's version of Blake Griffin. Without that high energy or motor, Tyler is really not that good of a player on the NBA level.

mildlysane
03-09-2012, 11:57 AM
I'll be the first to admit that I was wrong about Tyler. Based on his physical attributes and pre-draft measurements, I was REALLY HOPING for a poor man's version of Blake Griffin. Without that high energy or motor, Tyler is really not that good of a player on the NBA level.
I agree with you. I also thought that he would adjust his shot and figure out ways to get his shot off. I thought he would improve his defense as well.

Justin Tyme
03-09-2012, 12:39 PM
Why did I ever think when McBob got traded the McBob and Hansbro debates had stopped!!?? I'm beginning to feel if Tyler got traded and both were on other NBA teams this debating would still continue. Honestly, both are nothing but bench players. Just put it to rest.

pacer4ever
03-09-2012, 12:47 PM
I'll be the first to admit that I was wrong about Tyler. Based on his physical attributes and pre-draft measurements, I was REALLY HOPING for a poor man's version of Blake Griffin. Without that high energy or motor, Tyler is really not that good of a player on the NBA level.

wowser poor man Blake Griffin?? I dont know I just never saw him being anything more than a energy guy basically a 3rd or 4th big in the NBA. Thomas Robinson I see as a Blake Griffin/C-webb clone plays above the rim great motor rebounds HAS GOOD POST MOVES and passes better than most big men




the bold is what Tyler has never had. I think the offense Tyler played in at UNC maybe is why you though he was more athletic and skilled than he is. Blake Griffin in college had a elite arsenal in the post and had counters that most NBA vets dont have. Along with having great passing ability. A Tyler Zeller is a much better prospect than Hans you never saw Hans have anywhere close to the moves Zeller has in the post and Zeller is also a great passer.


The pre draft measurements are interesting I hardly put any stock in them I rely on the tape to tell me what kind of athlete they are.


Kind of like the NFL combine Kendall Wright ran a 4.6 and he plays like he runs a 4.4 so I dont put much stock in his poor 40. Same thing with the NBA combine if a player tests well but the tape doesn't back it up that is a huge red flag in my book.


And if you are going to really take a measurable seriously a no step vertical is pretty important for a big man. Blake Griffin's no step was almost as good as his max vert that is a great leaper. Tyler had a good max but he had a pretty average to below average no step that means he needs to gather himself to really get up.

But again I rarely put stock in measurables if a guy like Griffin or Thomas Robinson who plays bigger than his size on tape he likely will do the same at the next level.

Drewtone
03-09-2012, 01:12 PM
If you use 30 games as the minimum he's ranked 17th or 5 lower using total total points despite getting many less shots than others.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/qualified/false/split/128

After last night games he fell to 9th in Total rebounds but is 12th per game, .1 from being tied for 9th in Per game.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/rebounds/sort/avgRebounds/qualified/false/split/128

So we had all this drama for that little movement?


...which takes me back to my primary point that using the total numbers is a meaningless statistic, and the adequate sample size allows you to make statistically significant use of the meaningful one (average) without too much noise from outliers.

Honestly, I'm not tring to be a wise-guy, I'm just trying to understand the point.

ksuttonjr76
03-09-2012, 01:29 PM
wowser poor man Blake Griffin?? I dont know I just never saw him being anything more than a energy guy basically a 3rd or 4th big in the NBA. Thomas Robinson I see as a Blake Griffin/C-webb clone plays above the rim great motor rebounds HAS GOOD POST MOVES and passes better than most big men




the bold is what Tyler has never had. I think the offense Tyler played in at UNC maybe is why you though he was more athletic and skilled than he is. Blake Griffin in college had a elite arsenal in the post and had counters that most NBA vets dont have. Along with having great passing ability. A Tyler Zeller is a much better prospect than Hans you never saw Hans have anywhere close to the moves Zeller has in the post and Zeller is also a great passer.


The pre draft measurements are interesting I hardly put any stock in them I rely on the tape to tell me what kind of athlete they are.


Kind of like the NFL combine Kendall Wright ran a 4.6 and he plays like he runs a 4.4 so I dont put much stock in his poor 40. Same thing with the NBA combine if a player tests well but the tape doesn't back it up that is a huge red flag in my book.


And if you are going to really take a measurable seriously a no step vertical is pretty important for a big man. Blake Griffin's no step was almost as good as his max vert that is a great leaper. Tyler had a good max but he had a pretty average to below average no step that means he needs to gather himself to really get up.

But again I rarely put stock in even that if a guy like Griffin or Thomas Robinson who plays bigger than his size on tape he likely will do the same at the next level.

I agree. I set my expectations for Tyler too high.

DaveP63
03-09-2012, 07:22 PM
This year he has certainly been a bit of a **** out. I'm not convinced that we haven't seen exactly what he is at this point in his career.

Naptown_Seth
03-09-2012, 09:55 PM
Who said anything about trading Tyler? Those two on the same team was a good thing we had going for our bench. I wouldn't trade Tyler for Josh, not sure so many would.
This is why Rose was making fun of him, he totally misreads the points being made. If it wasn't so hilariously misguided it would be annoying.

Obviously my point was that you couldn't afford to reduce your frontline depth and you could easily afford to pay Josh to continue to put up similar numbers to Tyler in a different way (less FTs/scoring, more blocks, similar rebounds, better passing).

I even said that Josh slumps/Tyler gets it going, Tyler slumps/Josh gets it going which implies my own desire to have both in a just-in-case manner that was shown as believable last season.

WhyTF this is an either/or is beyond me, but I suspect it has a lot to do with the baggage some people bring to it.




For example...
I don't hate Tyler, I don't hate his game, and I wish success for him every night. I stand and cheer every time he makes a nice play, and those certainly do happen.

I hated overpaying for him (by pick), I hate how fans irrationally love him more than any other player despite his sub-par contributions, and I hate the idea that maybe the FO decided that Josh had to go to make room for Tyler.

And while I like(d) Henderson as an NBA prospect, for good reason, I only used the Tyler-smack photo as a joke to go with "Hands Bro!" as though Tyler would be saying that to Henderson.


From this the nutjobs (sorry, but there is no other explanation) took it to mean I hated UNC, loved Duke, hate Tyler, want Tyler to fail because I'm a big Carmel/Josh fan, etc.

Almost always my actual stance is dead center, right around the "let's be reasonable" area, with occasional forays into "this team is going all the way". I'm sure out on "Tyler is the greatest" island it looks like I'm way off to the edge.

Naptown_Seth
03-09-2012, 10:03 PM
Same thing with the NBA combine if a player tests well but the tape doesn't back it up that is a huge red flag in my book. Totally agree P4Ever.

If you have it and you haven't been using it, then that says something about your mental game. Being told to go there and jump is not the same as realizing the need to jump at a time early enough to make it happen during a play. It's more than just reading the court too, it's more like a drill where you would ask the player to do something but not tell him ahead of time what that is.

In that case you are representing his floor read, you are telling him what needs to be done but only at the last second when it becomes apparent. From the time he hears that command to the time he executes it, and his ability to execute the "surprise" need in a maximum fashion, is what you really want to know.

Give a player 10 possible tasks, like vert jump standing or running jump or 1 lap short shuttle run or cone pick-up/move or pass catch and dribble. Call them out randomly and in quick order and then look at his "quickness", "hops", "handles" and most of all his reaction time in those circumstances.

Because that's something you will never teach him. Even if he learns to read the floor he still will struggle with executing the play he knows he needs to make. Plus you just had year(s) of him demonstrating this in the actual job you are thinking of giving him. It's like ignoring 2 years of a Computer Programmers horrible work because he just did great on your computer knowledge test.

And IMO this is why you have those highlight reel guys that can very rarely come flying in with a 5 step start for a putback dunk or rebound, but don't consistently challenge guys at the rim on either end. They find those rare moments when it's ultra-clear what's coming (or they just gamble on it) and prep themselves to make the play.

Asher99
03-09-2012, 10:16 PM
he totally misreads the points being made.

LOL nice one, Mackey is the king of misreading posts you goof! The reason I said we should trade Josh for Tyler is to mock you and all the other Josh lovers because nobody in their right mind would actually make that trade from the Pacers side because Josh blows and can't even get on the floor consistently for the Lakers.

Pace Maker
03-10-2012, 02:30 AM
Very disappointed with how Tyler has been playing this year. Granted I was never happy when we originally drafted him,(REALLY wanted Lawson!), he shut me up with his dramatically improved play late last season.

But this year his production has been unacceptable. Does anybody have a resource where I can check a player's FG% from certain areas (Mid-Range, around the basket) I can't imagine Tyler being above 30% from mid range.

IndySDExport
03-10-2012, 02:50 AM
LOL nice one, Mackey is the king of misreading posts you goof! The reason I said we should trade Josh for Tyler is to mock you and all the other Josh lovers...

Really? Regardless of disagreements, debates, opinion or even general misunderstandings, I don't think a post should deliberately be aimed at mocking others on this board. So I congratulate you on your admitted immaturity.

I've certainly read my fill.




Man I go out of town and stop reading for a few days and people are at each others throats. Aren't we still 9 games over 0.500 (at least until tomorrow)?

dal9
03-10-2012, 02:53 AM
McBobbers back in the rotation...15 mins, 7 rbs...Murphy only 2 mins
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320309016

Asher99
03-10-2012, 03:04 AM
McBobbers back in the rotation...15 mins, 7 rbs...Murphy only 2 mins
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320309016

Nice work, next stop might even be making his second jumper before the season is over. Since averages have been such a major topic in this thread he's up to 2.4 points and 3.1 rebounds a game, He could make a big late sixth man of the year push with his 1.7 and 2.5 off the bench this year.

Pace Maker
03-10-2012, 03:08 AM
Nice work, next stop might even be making his second jumper before the season is over. Since averages have been such a major topic in this thread he's up to 2.4 points and 3.1 rebounds a game, He could make a big late sixth man of the year push with his 1.7 and 2.5 off the bench this year.

At least he'd still shoot better than Tyler

Asher99
03-10-2012, 03:09 AM
Man I go out of town and stop reading for a few days and people are at each others throats. Aren't we still 9 games over 0.500 (at least until tomorrow)?

I find Mackey and Seth to be prick's regardless of our record.

Asher99
03-10-2012, 03:20 AM
At least he'd still shoot better than Tyler

Not if he was guarded. There's a reason why players like Josh and Lou get so many wide open dunks and layups. Its because the suck offensively and they go double someone who's can beat them, do you think there's ever been a meeting in the NBA that has the line "We've got to slow down McRoberts tonight" or "We can't let McRoberts beat us"?

TheDavisBrothers
03-10-2012, 04:21 AM
Not if he was guarded. There's a reason why players like Josh and Lou get so many wide open dunks and layups. Its because the suck offensively and they go double someone who's can beat them, do you think there's ever been a meeting in the NBA that has the line "We've got to slow down McRoberts tonight" or "We can't let McRoberts beat us"?

That's the same reasoning I gave for Andris Biedrins and you didn't seem to receptive to it then...
It's funny how when it supports your argument, it's true, but if it doesn't, it's not

Asher99
03-10-2012, 04:49 AM
Oh I know you did that's why I used the exact same line here while talking about a certain few people's favorite player.

TheDavisBrothers
03-10-2012, 05:01 AM
Oh I know you did that's why I used the exact same line here while talking about a certain few people's favorite player.

Ain't no sweat off my sack, I could really care less about Josh McRoberts. I never got the obsession with him...

Asher99
03-10-2012, 05:11 AM
Ain't no sweat off my sack, I could really care less about Josh McRoberts. I never got the obsession with him...

I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about a few others mainly the little boy who I was responding to when you originally responded to me with that line.

Justin Tyme
03-10-2012, 10:22 AM
Really? Regardless of disagreements, debates, opinion or even general misunderstandings, I don't think a post should deliberately be aimed at mocking others on this board. So I congratulate you on your admitted immaturity.

I've certainly read my fill.


NEWBIE-ITIS

Justin Tyme
03-10-2012, 10:47 AM
I find Mackey and Seth to be prick's regardless of our record.


What??

Reading some of your past posts makes one feel like deja vue at RATS again!

Mackey_Rose
03-10-2012, 12:04 PM
I find Mackey and Seth to be prick's regardless of our record.

Well that seems like a harsh characterization to make against someone who you can't even read his posts.

This guy...

dal9
03-10-2012, 12:56 PM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yxcqMrAEcpI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Mackey_Rose
03-10-2012, 01:55 PM
Did Boiler legend, Joe McConnell, just announce the glorious demise of Asher's PD career?

TheDavisBrothers
03-10-2012, 02:07 PM
Did Boiler legend, Joe McConnell, just announce the glorious demise of Asher's PD career?

He had it comin

ksuttonjr76
03-10-2012, 02:08 PM
Did Boiler legend, Joe McConnell, just announce the glorious demise of Asher's PD career?

I hope so....

Mackey_Rose
03-10-2012, 02:31 PM
He got froze out, yo.

vnzla81
03-10-2012, 02:43 PM
I am a Tyler Hansbrough fan and I have never block anybody here but I was ready to block him, thanks god he is gone.

dal9
03-10-2012, 03:29 PM
This flew under the radar. Bird rejects Ray Allen for Hans+1st.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/7662366/big-3-final-run-stirs-bittersweet-memories-original-trio


Bird predicts the Noveau Three, like the Vintage Three, will remain intact until the end of this season, when the contracts of both Allen and Garnett expire.

"Here's the thing," Bird said. "When Danny and I talked about trading for Ray, he wanted Tyler Hansbrough and a first-round pick. If that's the value he's putting on Ray Allen, he ain't getting it. That tells me he's in no hurry to trade him.

"All that talk about Danny blowing it up, about not making the same mistakes as Red, is fine.

"But now that it's his turn to pull the trigger, it's a helluva lot harder than it looks."

Naptown_Seth
03-10-2012, 04:50 PM
Ain't no sweat off my sack, I could really care less about Josh McRoberts. I never got the obsession with him...
To be clear here the obession isn't with McRoberts, but with the detractors (ie, people who think JOB was a genius since he felt the same way).

1) You have a guy capable of putting up Tyler numbers

2) You ignore this fact and spend a pick getting virtually the same guy when you badly need a PG in a PG loaded draft

3) You finally rid yourself of the coach that wouldn't develop the frontline and use that moment to dump a guy most likely to benefit from it (besides Roy)

4) You do this because you are certain that Foster will be healthy and that Pendergraph will be as good.

5) You also assume Tyler won't plateau despite his age.

6) The fanbase completely disregards Josh but cheers everything Tyler does even if it comes after 2 TOs, 2 slop missed FGs, and a dumb foul. Nearly identical outputs but drastically different fan reactions, which to me was always irrational. This is why I suspected the IU connection.

Personally I didn't know who Josh was until he started playing for the Pacers. I wasn't following prospects till after he came out.


Anway, that list is the obsession, not Josh himself. Just like I wasn't obsessed with Roy, I was obsessed with Rasho being played instead of Roy for a team that needed to develop Roy and wasn't going to retain Rasho (and should have saved money buying him out in fact).

I've always had some doubts about Roy's agility, but I had no doubts about Rasho's non-involvement in the Pacers' future. That situation still looks ultra-bizarre and pointless to me.



BEGIN WEIRD MOVES RANT HERE
To me in several of these cases the Pacers have taken a solid 8.5 situation (sometimes by their own making) and turned it into a 6. It's still above average, but a lot of deals and situations clearly lined up better than the team made of them and not in hindsight.

JO for Ford/Rasho/17 was improved by picking Roy at 17, but hampered by not saving money on Rasho and by letting him hold back Roy's progress. Then it was hurt more by not recognizing the issues Ford created before his trade value when to crap (ie, like when J Jack saw those issues and complained openly).

Bayless/Diogu for Rush/JJack/Josh is brilliant, until you skip on JJack, let Josh go and trade Rush. You took the Bayless draft spot and turned it directly into Lou Amudson. So from great to "WTF" in a couple of years.

Naptown_Seth
03-10-2012, 05:08 PM
Unfortunately, I'm going to have to kill Seth for outing me, but I appreciate the sentiment.
Classic dullard overreaction.

If you like shutting people up so much why don't you power grab the world's library system instead, seems like a natural fit. Then you could go all Assassin's Creed on every poor schmuck that returned Walden 3 days late (imagine the sweet irony of dumping the body in a lake).




I find Mackey and Seth to be prick's regardless of our record. I honestly couldn't care less about this and don't really mind if you bring him back. I was never remotely angered his reactions and sincerely found it kind of funny.

For example, what does "regardless of our record" have to do with the our p***k level (...really guys, this is where you are going with it, don't waste the pixels on that post you are cooking up...although I do "enjoy" a good win).

Win PCT vs d-bag level
Normal person
.35 = Rush Limbaugh
.45 = Donald Trump
.55 = Anderson Cooper
.65 = Zooey Deschanel

Whereas Mackey and I run a solid "Bill O'Reilly" no matter how well the team plays. What do you expect when we have to do nothing but read posts from you pinheads.*






*I really think the tide has turned in the NS vs MR sarcasm battle 2012

Naptown_Seth
03-10-2012, 05:14 PM
This flew under the radar. Bird rejects Ray Allen for Hans+1st.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/7662366/big-3-final-run-stirs-bittersweet-memories-original-trio
Tough call, although you could use the SG now more than the Vandy SG you get with that pick next year. Would Ray stay for one more go? I think so, he's still got his shot.

Hans bites into the depth issues even more. It's one thing to turn to using Lou more now, but my whole point about keeping Josh was to have BOTH in a "just in case" view.

You don't trade Tyler for this unless you have the Kaman deal going also. Man, Kaman and Ray added to this team if you keep the main 6 guys? That's strong.

Hicks
03-10-2012, 05:18 PM
Can we bench him from practice now that he's hurting the better players?

Naptown_Seth
03-10-2012, 05:23 PM
Not if he was guarded. There's a reason why players like Josh and Lou get so many wide open dunks and layups.Because they make them at a 55% rate? Yes, that IS a great strategy. Find the thing that a guy does well and let him do it.

BTW, Lou shoots 37.2, not Josh's 53, so it's not the same thing. And no one said "let's keep Josh to shoot 10 times a game". You keep him to set great picks (ie, actual contact with defender) and to make great passes that get scores.

I find both skills WAY more valuable than 8 out of control in traffic YMCA caliber tosses at the rim. That's not quality basketball and it isn't a surprise when it results in a 38.6 FG%.

See there's the thing, teams are letting TYLER SHOOT because they know he does it so poorly. AT 38.6 no team is going to deny Tyler a chance to get the ball instead of Paul, Roy or George.

Tyler doesn't get alley-oops from the elbow because he doesn't have that awareness or those hops. I don't fault guys like Josh for not shooting things they aren't good at. I fault them for not having that additional game if I need them to have it, but I credit them for at least knowing what their game is.

pacer4ever
03-10-2012, 05:54 PM
Tough call, although you could use the SG now more than the Vandy SG you get with that pick next year. Would Ray stay for one more go? I think so, he's still got his shot.

Hans bites into the depth issues even more. It's one thing to turn to using Lou more now, but my whole point about keeping Josh was to have BOTH in a "just in case" view.

You don't trade Tyler for this unless you have the Kaman deal going also. Man, Kaman and Ray added to this team if you keep the main 6 guys? That's strong.

John Jenkins is an assassin quickest jumper I have measured this year. .6 at times which is just insanely quick.

Sookie
03-10-2012, 05:56 PM
Can we bench him from practice now that he's hurting the better players?

I'm honestly surprised this hasn't happened sooner. You would think with 2 and a half years of practice Tyler would have given someone a concussion by now. :laugh:

Drewtone
03-10-2012, 07:11 PM
Did Boiler legend, Joe McConnell, just announce the glorious demise of Asher's PD career?

He should look on the bright side... his season total AND average bans = 1!!!

Pacer Fan
03-10-2012, 08:28 PM
Let's hope Tyler will find his game, I have faith in him and I still think he can be a big part of the team.

I think he was getting beat up a lot in the first part of the year and it has slowed his engine down, being less aggressive. I think he will get this back soon.

I had even posted at one point about the smashmouth thing. That Tyler was taking the blunt of it all. Which, in some ways was unfair. I think that's why we haven't heard that same statement in awhile. JMO

Naptown_Seth
03-11-2012, 10:36 PM
Well I do agree about hoping Tyler finds his game. If I was speaking to him I'd give him a calm assessment and then root for him to work hard and improve those trouble areas.

The arguing is for people that just outright deny those problem areas, which I just don't get. We badly need a decent in-traffic PF at both ends of the court.

I thought Lou was really terrific in that Miami game, he really showed some decent moves going to the lane. That would help us a ton. Sadly I saw Tyler get out-jumped for a few in-traffic rebounds by smaller players, and that's the kind of issue that hurts the bench.

I think most of us had little faith that Lou could do any of the things he did on the offensive end vs Miami, so that at least shows hope for Tyler figuring something out. All it takes is your niche when you are coming off the bench, you don't need the total package.