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Peck
03-04-2012, 05:39 AM
Acknowledging right up front that the Hornets were short players and were playing their 4th game in 5 nights and had just beaten the defending champs the night before, I still think this was a great win for our Pacers. If nothing else the team has taken the step forward of putting teams down early (when they can) and not letting them linger on or make big runs to keep the game in question. The end score of course was not an indication of how big the victory was. The deep bench of the Pacers played almost Ĺ of the 4th quarter and the Hornets by necessity of being short had to play actual rotational players against them. Needless to say the narrowed the gap ever so slightly.

Obviously there were a lot of good performances by our players. In fact you would really be hard pressed to award a game ball to anybody unanimously.

The one thing that certainly stands out to me right now is that the team is actually in a ďitís all about the winsĒ mode right now. Nobody seems upset that their own stats are dropping because the starters hit the pines after the third during this win streak. In fact Roy Hibbert didnít hit a shot from the field & only had 4 attempts (most of which he created for himself) but nobody was a bigger cheerleader from the bench. Obviously winning is the balm that solves all (Clarkism).

There really isnít a whole lot to talk about, this game was never in question.

Weíre just going to do this in bulletpoint style tonight.

ē Some of you guys get hung up on height when it comes to our backup center. I really would like to see a list of all of the backup centers in the NBA and their individual heights. I just donít see where Lou is too small to play the backup position except vs. the very rare good backup big man. How many of them are there in the league? Now tonight was the exception, not the rule. He was a little efficient on offense than he normally is, but he is always active and really does not get muscled around by anyone. I would say that Louís early play demoralized the Hornets because there was no let down when he came in.

ē Paul George had 5 steals, he had more steals by himself than the Hornets did as a team. Also his closeouts on Belinelli were outstanding. That makes two games since the all-star break that he has had outstanding overall games.

ē Roy Hibbert didnít score a lot, the Hornets worked very hard in denying him the entry pass. So Roy went to work rebounding, setting screens and playing tough interior defense. This is so far removed from the Roy of a couple of years ago that it is almost another player altogether. Roy, Danny & David formed the great wall of Indiana as each of them blocked 2 shots (as did Lou & Dahntay).

ē Great overall game by West as well. He hit the boards tonight and his offense as always was timely and efficient. I like that he said after the game that he has already had more blowout wins here this season than he has had in any other season of his career.

ē Dahntay Jones had another workman like night, once again providing needed and valuable relief.

Ok, Iím boring myself here guys.

Iíll just say that everybody that played (which was everybody but Foster) did either outstanding to at the very least acceptable. The only real problem I saw was not really a problem at all. Our 13th man, Pendegraph, just isnít very good. Iím sorry I know that he only gets in at slop time but this guy is just completely clueless on the court. But again, itís not a problem; he would not even be dressed under the old rules. He though is a prime example of what I say when Iím saying that height is not the only measure of a backup center. Does anybody really think he should play over Lou?

Anyway as we already know the chicken soup games are now over. It did its job our record is healthy again but now itís time to start playing some real teams and if we are going to do anything other than be another first round quick exit then we are going to have to win some of these. I donít expect to go 9-0 but we better not go 0-9 either and for the love of God we have got to find some way to at least make it so the Miami game is not over 4 min. into the first quarter.

I fully expect the win streak to end here at 6 as we all know the Bulls have this game circled in big red circles on their calendar. However if by some small miracle we do actually beat them again in the united center I demand that the team do their celebrating right at center court on the Bulls logo.

Sorry for the quality of this one guys. Hopefully Iíll get back into it after the Chicago game.

http://groceries4u.fit.edu/productcart/pc/catalog/Raidw.jpg

Strummer
03-04-2012, 06:06 AM
I loved watching Lance and Lou play together. In their early games, Lou wouldn't have a clue that the passes were coming. Now when Lance drives Lou is finding open spaces and ready to receive the ball. They're not always connecting but they're on the same page.

It'll take time for the rest of the players to learn to play with Lance. He's really the only creative passer on the team. But hopefully the rest of the big men can learn from watching Lou. They need to be ready and attacking the basket when Lance sends a pass their way.

Anthem
03-04-2012, 08:52 AM
The only real problem I saw was not really a problem at all. Our 13th man, Pendegraph, just isnít very good. Iím sorry I know that he only gets in at slop time but this guy is just completely clueless on the court. But again, itís not a problem; he would not even be dressed under the old rules. He though is a prime example of what I say when Iím saying that height is not the only measure of a backup center.
I don't think this is fair. He's coming off major surgery and so his timing and conditioning needs work. Form on his post-ups and jumpers look good. His play will improve; he's got talent.

Good write up though.

Richard_Skull
03-04-2012, 09:48 AM
I loved watching Lance and Lou play together. In their early games, Lou wouldn't have a clue that the passes were coming. Now when Lance drives Lou is finding open spaces and ready to receive the ball. They're not always connecting but they're on the same page.

It'll take time for the rest of the players to learn to play with Lance. He's really the only creative passer on the team. But hopefully the rest of the big men can learn from watching Lou. They need to be ready and attacking the basket when Lance sends a pass their way.

That's what I love about Lance. He can even make Lou look good on offense.

Harddrive7
03-04-2012, 10:00 AM
I know that I don't say much on here, mostly to keep from sounding like an idiot. But I must say, I would rather read Peck's Odd Thought's than our local sports writers and most national. It's strong and to the point. Very well thought out and clean, not all over the place. I always appreciate the time you take to do this for everyone.

Anthem
03-04-2012, 10:01 AM
That's what I love about Lance. He can even make Lou look good on offense.
Well, to be fair, Lou was already having his best offensive night as a Pacer before Lance checked in.

But Lance does feed the bigs.

BringJackBack
03-04-2012, 11:27 AM
In the event that we acquire Chris Kaman, if it does happen.... I think that Lou should take Tyler's spot in the rotation.

Tom White
03-04-2012, 12:41 PM
In the event that we acquire Chris Kaman, if it does happen.... I think that Lou should take Tyler's spot in the rotation.

I don't know about Lou taking over for Tyler, but I want to ask about Kaman.

There has been a lot of talk about whether the Pacers could pick him up as a BU to Roy. I've never followed him much at all, so I've tried to pay attention to his play vs. the Pacers and I've got to tell you, I'm just not impressed.

So, here is the question. Does he play at the same level vs. other teams that he does vs. the Pacers, or do the Pacers make him look worse than other teams do? As I watch him in the Pacer games, I just don't see what the excitement is about. What am I missing here?

graphic-er
03-04-2012, 12:57 PM
I don't know about Lou taking over for Tyler, but I want to ask about Kaman.

There has been a lot of talk about whether the Pacers could pick him up as a BU to Roy. I've never followed him much at all, so I've tried to pay attention to his play vs. the Pacers and I've got to tell you, I'm just not impressed.

So, here is the question. Does he play at the same level vs. other teams that he does vs. the Pacers, or do the Pacers make him look worse than other teams do? As I watch him in the Pacer games, I just don't see what the excitement is about. What am I missing here?

Kamen is a smart player offensively and he provides decent help defense. He won't be blocking shots or anything like that. He would be the best back up center in the league. Offensively you just have to look back 2 weeks when the Pacers played the Hornets at Bankers. Kamen was lighting Roy up with a variety of shots.

graphic-er
03-04-2012, 01:00 PM
In the event that we acquire Chris Kaman, if it does happen.... I think that Lou should take Tyler's spot in the rotation.

I totally agree, In fact I'd be playing Lou right now over mister 1 rebound.

I think Tyler is getting a pass from the coaching staff since we have strung together 6 wins and he has had couple of good games.

But overall I just feel Lou is very consistent with what he brings, sucks that he only gets to play every other game. Cause he is bringing it far more than Foster at this point.

Sookie
03-04-2012, 01:21 PM
I totally agree, In fact I'd be playing Lou right now over mister 1 rebound.

I think Tyler is getting a pass from the coaching staff since we have strung together 6 wins and he has had couple of good games.

But overall I just feel Lou is very consistent with what he brings, sucks that he only gets to play every other game. Cause he is bringing it far more than Foster at this point.

He's also playing because he has the ability to score.

You take Hansbrough out of the second unit, and there's no player able to score in the post. Leaving just Hill and AJ to try and score in the halfcourt.

The beauty of having Tyler, AJ, and George all in the second unit is that their shot may be inconsistent, but odds are pretty good at least one of them will be hitting every night.

Sherlock
03-04-2012, 01:43 PM
Well, to be fair, Lou was already having his best offensive night as a Pacer before Lance checked in.

But Lance does feed the bigs.

I agree on the lance part totally.
Lance hits the bigs.
He can easily cut into the lane with his fast spin move and he did it in a effortless way, so smooth.
That's a move with a notch higher than Granger's slow spin move.
And he found teammates in the motion.
Other people take time to find and pass, some even have to stop the ball before they pass.
But he can complete the pass during his cutting into the lane with good angle.

Zero turnover for Lance in his 6 mins.

Ya, he has his deficiency.
But I see he playing much more comfortably on the court.

I think Vogel did make plays for Lance in the last 6 minutes.
That is, let him have the ball at the arc, and somehow he will hit Admunson below the rim.

From my count, he did have more than 2 Asts.
He did hit Admunson another two times, one Admunson missed the dunk, one Admunson just butterfingered the ball.
Those are passes that would converted to 2 points if it's D. West receiving the ball.

I just hope he has the determination as Roy and Danny, bring his mid range jumper to his game after the summer.
And to keep his his mind straight.
To me, he is a jumper away from being a poor man's Rondo.


However, I keep having a tinny secret hope that we will have our own Lansanity in the playoff.
Who knows.

15th parallel
03-04-2012, 01:52 PM
I totally agree, In fact I'd be playing Lou right now over mister 1 rebound.

I think Tyler is getting a pass from the coaching staff since we have strung together 6 wins and he has had couple of good games.

But overall I just feel Lou is very consistent with what he brings, sucks that he only gets to play every other game. Cause he is bringing it far more than Foster at this point.

Lou does what he does best when he's playing with a player focused on scoring. But until we find another scorer off the bench, I still don't think playing more minutes from Lou and reducing Tyler's minutes can be beneficial at this point. Tyler is playing well the last few games so I'm still giving the same minutes for him. Besides, Lou is playing backup C, so he'll get the minutes either way.

Pacer Fan
03-04-2012, 01:54 PM
Some of you being a bit hard on Tyler aren't ya? 1 good game by Lou and a bad game by Tyler doesn't mean shiot!

Anthem
03-04-2012, 03:39 PM
Some of you being a bit hard on Tyler aren't ya? 1 good game by Lou and a bad game by Tyler doesn't mean shiot!
I like Tyler a lot. He's a good kid and works hard, so I think he'll add the next set of moves he needs to be successful at this level. But if you're playing Kaman as the backup center, the ideal guy to put next to him is a defense-and-rebounding specialist, and Tyler's not that (yet).

A Kaman/Lou frontcourt is a fantastic bench rotation.

gummy
03-04-2012, 03:52 PM
I like Tyler and hope he will come around. I read some comments (in the Star?) the other day where coach Vogel said it would behoove Tyler to learn how to change up his speed to keep defenders off guard rather than going 1000 miles per hour. I know that will upset people who think Tyler needs to be allowed to "play his game," but I think this is absolutely correct. Coach Vogel is trying to help Tyler grow his game into something that will work consistently on the professional level, and it can only benefit him and his team in the long-run. To his credit, Tyler said he wasn't really sure how to do that but it was something he would be looking at. He's a competitor, and he respects his coach - he'll figure something out.

But right now Tyler is not very good, and it's not just one game. It's been pretty much the whole season, with small streaks of looking OK and flashes of looking good. He needs to be able to change speeds, have better awareness of where his teammates are on the court, and have a couple of actual post moves. It pains me to say it - I had a big player crush on Tyler last year - but if we get Kaman I think it does make sense to slide Lou over to take some of Tyler's minutes at PF. Not all of them, necessarily, but definitely some.

clownskull
03-04-2012, 04:20 PM
even though lou is not quite as tall as foster, one thing he does have over foster is a younger back with far fewer miles on it.
he does look like he is adjusting to this team better than we he got here.

joeyd
03-04-2012, 04:37 PM
Acknowledging right up front that the Hornets were short players and were playing their 4th game in 5 nights and had just beaten the defending champs the night before

OK, I just read this, and immediately before reading this, I read a post saying in essence that we had no chance of beating Miami. This, however, reminds me of why they play the game. So...while I am not unrealistic, let's hold on to the fact that we still have a shred of hope of beating Miami!!! After all, we used to match up well with them.

Hoop
03-04-2012, 07:05 PM
Lou was a freaking animal last night, very impressive. I've been critical of Lou and the Rush trade, especially after his 1-17 stretch last month. Not anymore, I'm warming up to Lou.

If he can play even close to this the rest of the year, Foster's health becomes much less of a problem. Lou's made several plays I didn't think he was capable of making the last few weeks, both offensively and defensively.

Anthem
03-04-2012, 07:27 PM
After all, we used to match up well with them.
Because we had BRush.

rexnom
03-04-2012, 07:33 PM
Would you do a Tyler for Kaman swap? It's certainly interesting, right?

vnzla81
03-04-2012, 08:05 PM
Would you do a Tyler for Kaman swap? It's certainly interesting, right?

I would probably do a Kaman, Greivis Vasquez for Tyler+ cap space swap.

vnzla81
03-04-2012, 08:07 PM
Probably a trade like this one.


http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6obgkg5

cdash
03-04-2012, 08:08 PM
I would probably do a Kaman, Greivis Vasquez for Tyler+ cap space swap.

:laugh:

Yeah, I would think so. I am a big Vasquez fan. Guy's legit. Since no one ever gives you credit for anything, I'll give you a shout out here: You were on his bandwagon when he was still in school if I remember correctly.

Hoop
03-04-2012, 08:08 PM
So, here is the question. Does he play at the same level vs. other teams that he does vs. the Pacers, or do the Pacers make him look worse than other teams do? As I watch him in the Pacer games, I just don't see what the excitement is about. What am I missing here?
I can't answer all your questions, but I've made a concerted effort to watch Kaman since all the talk about him coming here. I've only caught a few games though. He looks a lot like he did when he played his best in LA. He dropped off quite a bit the last few years, but looks like he's back to playing at a fairly high level. Don't know if it's because it's a contract year or he's just healthier and in a better role this season.

He played good against Chicago (17 & 11) more than held his own against Chicago's front line. They had Chicago on the ropes on their home floor, where we are the only ones that have won there this season. The Hornets then failed to score on their last 6 possessions and lost by only 4 pts.

He played really well against Dallas the night before he played us. (20 & 13)

He's played PF at times in both these games with Solomon Jones at center. He has a nice short to mid range jump shot and has a soft touch around the basket. He's more a finesse type player than a bruiser, but he's not afraid to mix it up a little. I wouldn't call him soft.

I think he'd fit in great on this team. I hate to give up much of anything to get him though. Only because we might not be able to resign him next season, would suck to give up much for a rental.

Dgreenwell3
03-04-2012, 08:12 PM
I am sure that the hornets wouldn't do that deal...Vasquez is probably worth more than Tyler right now...

pacerDU
03-04-2012, 08:28 PM
I think some of you are being very harsh on Tyler here. I really like what Lou brings on the defensive end and in rebounding. Offensively though he tries to do way too much. The next time I'm happy to see Lou take an outside jumper will be the first time.

I don't think you can say one replaces the other. They're very different players regarding skill-set. Lou is a rebounder/defender, Tyler is a scorer. The only game similarity they have is in their intensity and hustle. Tyler is inconsistent, but when he's on he's really productive. He does need to slow things down a little on offense, but he's far from the liability some of you are making him out to be.

One note from this game that I'm sure others have considered is: I'd really like Jarrett Jack back. I'm wondering (and I haven't looked up contracts or anything) but would you guys be open to trading DC straight up for Jack? I have no idea whether New Orleans would do it, but I feel like Jack would really be a better fit on our team.

He has great size (no more big guards giving us problems), is a tough competitor, a good defender(which is where DC really hurts us) and has become a much better facilitator in the past few years. He got along great with Danny while he was here and he's a very good leader.

I really like DC. I'm not out to just get rid of him. I just think Jack would be a great fit for this team.

I wonder what it would take to get Jack and I wonder if we could pick up both Jack and Kaman from them for a good price?

Eleazar
03-04-2012, 08:29 PM
If we could guarantee that Kaman would stay around after this season I would be ok with a Tyler Kaman swap.

Asher99
03-04-2012, 08:39 PM
Somewhat ironic to see in that trade machine offer that Tyler actually has a better Player Efficiency Rating than Kaman with 14.9 to 14.2.

vnzla81
03-04-2012, 09:15 PM
:laugh:

Yeah, I would think so. I am a big Vasquez fan. Guy's legit. Since no one ever gives you credit for anything, I'll give you a shout out here: You were on his bandwagon when he was still in school if I remember correctly.

Yeah I was annoying the crap out of Seth two years ago so he could tell me what he thought about him, I felt the same way about the Morris twins and so far so good I guess.

Aminu is another guy I thought was going to be good but I'm starting to think that he is the SF version of Thabeet.


Edit: Xavier Henry is another guy I got to watch a lot and I think he is going to be a nice player, probably Rush 2.0 or better.

Pacer Fan
03-04-2012, 09:21 PM
I like Tyler a lot. He's a good kid and works hard, so I think he'll add the next set of moves he needs to be successful at this level. But if you're playing Kaman as the backup center, the ideal guy to put next to him is a defense-and-rebounding specialist, and Tyler's not that (yet).

A Kaman/Lou frontcourt is a fantastic bench rotation.

:eek: Lou a rebound specialist...that's hilarious! You do realize his career does not show that at all.

The Hornets was without Okafor(C), Landry(PF), Smith(PF) and Ariza (SF).

Kaman only played 25 minutes. Kaman and Ayon was on the bench the whole time that Lou was on the floor. So Lou had to battle the likes of Solomon Jones, Lance Thomas and a bunch of guards.

Eddie Gill
03-04-2012, 09:45 PM
Glad that Solo seems to have found himself a good situation - at least in terms of getting minutes and being able to showcase himself a little bit. I always liked the guy and still think he's got enough talent to play in the league.

Anthem
03-04-2012, 11:23 PM
:eek: Lou a rebound specialist...that's hilarious! You do realize his career does not show that at all.
He's a better rebounder than Tyler (per minute). He's a better defender.

I'm not saying he's Dale Davis. I'm just saying if you add Kaman to this team as a backup C, the best backup PF to play next to him is likely to be Lou.

In reality, Kaman could very well get time backing up both big man spots.

Nuntius
03-04-2012, 11:28 PM
I like Tyler a lot. He's a good kid and works hard, so I think he'll add the next set of moves he needs to be successful at this level. But if you're playing Kaman as the backup center, the ideal guy to put next to him is a defense-and-rebounding specialist, and Tyler's not that (yet).

A Kaman/Lou frontcourt is a fantastic bench rotation.

That's true but we don't have Kaman yet. If we get him then yeah it would make sense.

HC
03-04-2012, 11:29 PM
I remember Lou having a decent showing with Phoenix vs the Pacers a few years back. I have always kind of liked him since them, he is gritty. I'm glad he has shown some of that.

Nuntius
03-04-2012, 11:31 PM
Probably a trade like this one.


http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6obgkg5

I'll repeat. You cannot trade your coaching staff.

Pacer Fan
03-04-2012, 11:48 PM
I like Tyler a lot. He's a good kid and works hard, so I think he'll add the next set of moves he needs to be successful at this level. But if you're playing Kaman as the backup center, the ideal guy to put next to him is a defense-and-rebounding specialist, and Tyler's not that (yet).

A Kaman/Lou frontcourt is a fantastic bench rotation.


:eek: Lou a rebound specialist...that's hilarious! You do realize his career does not show that at all.

The Hornets was without Okafor(C), Landry(PF), Smith(PF) and Ariza (SF).

Kaman only played 25 minutes. Kaman and Ayon was on the bench the whole time that Lou was on the floor. So Lou had to battle the likes of Solomon Jones, Lance Thomas and a bunch of guards.


He's a better rebounder than Tyler (per minute). He's a better defender.

I'm not saying he's Dale Davis. I'm just saying if you add Kaman to this team as a backup C, the best backup PF to play next to him is likely to be Lou.

In reality, Kaman could very well get time backing up both big man spots.

I totally disagree. You should not base a per minute or per 36 on a player that plays against starters and rotational guys vs a player that plays garbage time. They are not playing against the same type of quality players.

You said rebound specialists and you come back and say he's not Dale Davis, but that is what DD was, so obviously Lou is not a rebound specialists.

Again, Lou played the best game of his career last night and he did it against Solomon Jones, Lance Thomas and guards. He didn't play against Noah, Boozer, Millsap, Bosh or anyone legit like Tyler has. Until Lou does, it makes no sense to even suggest that he should play in front of Tyler.

Anthem
03-04-2012, 11:56 PM
I totally disagree. You should not base a per minute or per 36 on a player that plays against starters and rotational guys vs a player that plays garbage time. They are not playing against the same type of quality players.

You said rebound specialists and you come back and say he's not Dale Davis, but that is what DD was, so obviously Lou is not a rebound specialists.

Again, Lou played the best game of his career last night and he did it against Solomon Jones, Lance Thomas and guards. He didn't play against Noah, Boozer, Millsap, Bosh or anyone legit like Tyler has. Until Lou does, it makes no sense to even suggest that he should play in front of Tyler.
Ok, clearly there's a disconnect somewhere. Never mind the fact that Lou isn't a garbage time player, never mind that I've been making this point since before the all-star break so it's not a reaction to last night. Let me start over.

The primary point was about defense. Do you disagree that Lou is a better defender than Tyler?

If we were to magically acquire Kaman, is it your opinion that Tyler would be a better fit next to him than Lou?

Anthem
03-04-2012, 11:58 PM
That's true but we don't have Kaman yet. If we get him then yeah it would make sense.
Obviously the whole thing is hypothetical.

Pacer Fan
03-05-2012, 12:11 AM
Ok, clearly there's a disconnect somewhere. Never mind the fact that Lou isn't a garbage time player, never mind that I've been making this point since before the all-star break so it's not a reaction to last night. Let me start over.

The primary point was about defense. Do you disagree that Lou is a better defender than Tyler?

If we were to magically acquire Kaman, is it your opinion that Tyler would be a better fit next to him than Lou?

Did you ignore what I wrote? I mean of coarse I disagree. Lou has not played against the best and Tyler does. It's not even a question. In fact it would be embarrassing to see him out there in the playoffs trying to compete against the best.

Asher99
03-05-2012, 12:13 AM
Lou has 22.3% percent of his total rebounds and has made 24.1% of his shots from the field in games with over a 15 point margin, what happens when asked to play in more games with meaning?

Anthem
03-05-2012, 12:38 AM
Did you ignore what I wrote? I mean of coarse I disagree. Lou has not played against the best and Tyler does. It's not even a question. In fact it would be embarrassing to see him out there in the playoffs trying to compete against the best.

Ok, I'll try again.

Is Tyler a better defender than Lou?

Anthem
03-05-2012, 12:39 AM
Lou has 22.3% percent of his total rebounds and has made 24.1% of his shots from the field in games with over a 15 point margin, what happens when asked to play in more games with meaning?
Fantastic... Bravo for actual useful stats. What are those numbers for Tyler?

TheDavisBrothers
03-05-2012, 12:41 AM
Ok, I'll try again.

Is Tyler a better defender than Lou?

It doesn't matter cuz scoring is all that counts

Asher99
03-05-2012, 01:09 AM
Fantastic... Bravo for actual useful stats. What are those numbers for Tyler?


In games with a margin of 16 points or greater.
14.7% rebounds and 15.7% made FG for Tyler
22.3% rebounds and 24.1% made FG for Lou
or -7.6 and -8.4

Lou has 108 more rebounds than Tyler has under those conditions despite having only 255 more rebounds. So Tyler would need to have 42.3% of his next 255 rebounds to come in blowouts to match Lou's percentage or Lou would need his next 479 rebounds all to come under 16 point game to lower his percentage to Tyler's. In comparison those 479 rebounds would represent 51.6% of what Lou currently has now.

Hicks
03-05-2012, 01:31 AM
Because we had BRush.

Wait, what? A guy who can defend guards and hit threes, right? Just like... wait for it... Paul George!

Nuntius
03-05-2012, 07:44 AM
Obviously the whole thing is hypothetical.

Of course it is. I just like being Captain Obvious :p

McKeyFan
03-05-2012, 07:47 AM
Aminu is another guy I thought was going to be good but I'm starting to think that he is the SF version of Thabeet.


Edit: Xavier Henry is another guy I got to watch a lot and I think he is going to be a nice player, probably Rush 2.0 or better.

Why are you constantly hating on people and their crappy draft predictions?

:rolleyes:

Nuntius
03-05-2012, 07:55 AM
Did you ignore what I wrote? I mean of coarse I disagree. Lou has not played against the best and Tyler does. It's not even a question. In fact it would be embarrassing to see him out there in the playoffs trying to compete against the best.

I clearly remember Lou playing very good defense against Dwight Howard last time we played. In fact, he beat him in two consecutive offensive possessions. He blocked him in the first and forced him to a turnover in the next one (not sure if it was a travel or a charge). Lou is a very good post defender.

McKeyFan
03-05-2012, 07:55 AM
I like Jarrett Jack okay but am not really interested in Jack for DC.

Yes, defense would improve immediately, but Jack is basically a shoot first point guard just like DC, so we would not be improving the main problem.

Plus, wait for it . . . "chemistry" would be affected by a midseason point guard change. I'm willing to endure that if we acquire a pass first point who truly can make a difference once the adjustments are made. But for another shoot first point guard? Nah.

Nuntius
03-05-2012, 07:59 AM
I like Jarrett Jack okay but am not really interested in Jack for DC.

Yes, defense would improve immediately, but Jack is basically a shoot first point guard just like DC, so we would not be improving the main problem.

Plus, wait for it . . . "chemistry" would be affected by a midseason point guard change. I'm willing to endure that if we acquire a pass first point who truly can make a difference once the adjustments are made. But for another shoot first point guard? Nah.

Irrelevant note about DC:

He gets a lot of grief for being shot first. However, this season he is playing like a pass first point guard and not a shot first one. So, yeah. The guy tries.

TheDavisBrothers
03-05-2012, 08:12 AM
Irrelevant note about DC:

He gets a lot of grief for being shot first. However, this season he is playing like a pass first point guard and not a shot first one. So, yeah. The guy tries.

In the open court he's shoot first, I can't tell you how many times he's taken it coast to coast. In the half court I do think he's mostly pass first, he just doesn't have the court vision to be good at it, plus our offense has a lot of post ups, so that doesn't help his cause...

Nuntius
03-05-2012, 08:14 AM
In the open court he's shoot first, I can't tell you how many times he's taken it coast to coast. In the half court I do think he's mostly pass first, he just doesn't have the court vision to be good at it, plus our offense has a lot of post ups, so that doesn't help his cause...

Yeah, that's a pretty accurate description of DC :)

TheDavisBrothers
03-05-2012, 08:39 AM
I don't want to harp on DC too much because I do think he's an ok player but, how many times have you seen DC get an assisted basket? I don't think it's very many, as it seems like every basket he gets is created by himself, off the dribble. He's seems like a terrible off the ball player...

Cubs231721
03-05-2012, 10:19 AM
I don't want to harp on DC too much because I do think he's an ok player but, how many times have you seen DC get an assisted basket? I don't think it's very many, as it seems like every basket he gets is created by himself, off the dribble. He's seems like a terrible off the ball player...

Almost all of his 3's are probably off assisted baskets. And he gets some layups off cuts when Hibbert is in the post. He's not going to get a lot though being the smallest guy on the court and not being a sharpshooter from outside. His best shot is the 15 footer and since he can usually get that by himself, there's no reason to run a play to pass it to him for that shot.

TheDavisBrothers
03-05-2012, 10:41 AM
Almost all of his 3's are probably off assisted baskets. And he gets some layups off cuts when Hibbert is in the post. He's not going to get a lot though being the smallest guy on the court and not being a sharpshooter from outside. His best shot is the 15 footer and since he can usually get that by himself, there's no reason to run a play to pass it to him for that shot.

And he's made only 23 3's in 35 games, I've watched about 90% of the Pacers action this year and he's made about 5 of those Hibbert cut baskets all year. I'm not saying you have to run set plays for him, but can't he get available more often with his speed? Odviously it's not like he has had zero assisted baskets and I don't expect him as a point gaurd to get a ton, but he's still just not very good at it

Nuntius
03-05-2012, 11:27 AM
And he's made only 23 3's in 35 games, I've watched about 90% of the Pacers action this year and he's made about 5 of those Hibbert cut baskets all year. I'm not saying you have to run set plays for him, but can't he get available more often with his speed? Odviously it's not like he has had zero assisted baskets and I don't expect him as a point gaurd to get a ton, but he's still just not very good at it

DC is used as an initiator in our offense. Most of the time he just brings the ball upcourt without turning it over and either dumps it to Roy or gives it to the wings. It's this or the pick and pop. He seldomly creates for himself in a set offense. His job is to hit our players in the spots they like. West on the elbow, Hibbert in the low post (not that good in this one) and PG/DG on the sides.

His off-ball tasks are two:

1) If you dump the ball to Roy, make a cut.

2) If the ball is on the hands of our wings, stretch the floor.

He has a very respectable 23/55 (41.8%) from 3 and is thus a legitimate threat. Teams cannot double Roy when DC is in the top of the key.

In general, I don't think that we can get more out of our PGs the way that our first unit offense is run.

Our second unit offense is different mainly because our bigs move differently. Lou does not try to establish post position as often as Roy since he is not a good low post scorer. He mainly tries to cut to the basket and score via his athleticism. Hansbrough does not camp the post either since he has no real post moves.

Also, our first unit offense is heavily run through our bigs. Both Roy and West are great passers. They can play the high-low with ease. Lou and Tyler are not good or even willing passers (well, Tyler has shown an improvement in this area). So, the second unit offense is forced to be run through our guards. And I'm quite glad that AJ has stepped up and runs this well. Lance has developed a nice synergy with Lou as well so they can somewhat run a pick and roll. Hey, at least Lou knows how to cut :p

Sookie
03-05-2012, 11:36 AM
In the open court he's shoot first, I can't tell you how many times he's taken it coast to coast. In the half court I do think he's mostly pass first, he just doesn't have the court vision to be good at it, plus our offense has a lot of post ups, so that doesn't help his cause...

That's for three reasons

1. He goes so fast, he's often quite hard to stop going coast to coast, so we end up getting a pretty decent shot.

2. He often goes so fast his teammates aren't available for a pass

3. When they are...have you seen DC pass in transition? I'd rather he shoot.

edit: And BTW, the last one is okay. Basketball players aren't perfect, they work to improve themselves but they'll always have flaws. And if you have flaws, it's better that you work around them or try to hide them. DC knows he's not great at something, so instead he chooses to do something he is good at. (Instead of passing on the break, he takes the shot himself and usually scores)

graphic-er
03-05-2012, 12:04 PM
My biggest gripe about DC is how long he takes to set up the offense. He will dribble dribble dribble and finally make a move with about 11 seconds left on the clock. too many times our guys are taking a bad shot to beat the buzzer.

Sookie
03-05-2012, 12:07 PM
My biggest gripe about DC is how long he takes to set up the offense. He will dribble dribble dribble and finally make a move with about 11 seconds left on the clock. too many times our guys are taking a bad shot to beat the buzzer.

That's not entirely DC's fault. He can't start the offense immediately if no one's in position.

And quite often we're looking to post up West and Hibbert, which takes a little while to do, so yea, DC's dribbling, but he's waiting for West or Hibbert to get into position. (And sometimes, they never do)

McKeyFan
03-05-2012, 01:01 PM
That's not entirely DC's fault. He can't start the offense immediately if no one's in position.

And quite often we're looking to post up West and Hibbert, which takes a little while to do, so yea, DC's dribbling, but he's waiting for West or Hibbert to get into position. (And sometimes, they never do)

Lance, A.J., and George Hill get the ball in the post a lot quicker than DC.

Part of it is knack or innate ability, and part of it is disclipline/desire. Whatever it is, DC is slow about it.

Nuntius
03-05-2012, 01:10 PM
Lance, A.J., and George Hill get the ball in the post a lot quicker than DC.


Lance, A.J. and GH do not play with Roy or West most of the time. Teams collapse their interior defense to Roy and West. They don't do this for Tyler and Lou.

Also, Lou and Tyler have different tendencies than Roy. They do not establish post position. Tyler comes to the FT line to receive the pass and Lou usually cuts to the basket.

As I said earlier our second unit offense is run differently than our first unit offense.

That said, GH is indeed better in feeding the post.

Sookie
03-05-2012, 01:19 PM
Lance, A.J., and George Hill get the ball in the post a lot quicker than DC.

Part of it is knack or innate ability, and part of it is disclipline/desire. Whatever it is, DC is slow about it.

Lance, AJ, and Hill are better at it. But AJ will dribble the air out of the ball, almost stubbornly, until a post gets good position.

Part of it is height (yes, AJ and Hill's 2 inches do make a difference) Part of it's passing ability and court vision. But part of it is the post players getting post position too slowly.

That's why I said it's not all on DC. He could be quicker on things. But so could Roy, West, and Tyler.

Anthem
03-05-2012, 07:42 PM
I've watched about 90% of the Pacers action this year and he's made about 5 of those Hibbert cut baskets all year.
I wish he'd try it more often. It's pretty effective.

Anthem
03-05-2012, 07:43 PM
Wait, what? A guy who can defend guards and hit threes, right? Just like... wait for it... Paul George!
I like Paul George better, obviously. But Rush plays Wade as well as anyone in the league.

TheDavisBrothers
03-05-2012, 08:58 PM
I wish he'd try it more often. It's pretty effective.

I agree, he does the cut often enough, but he doesn't give a hard, committed effort, so Roy doesn't pass it to him