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View Full Version : NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers



docpaul
02-29-2012, 10:37 PM
http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/29/stats-fail-to-show-wests-impact-on-pacers/



David West is, by most individual measures, having one of the worst seasons of his nine-year N.B.A. career. His scoring is down per game, per minute and per possession. He’s currently posting a career-high turnover rate. His Player Efficiency Rating (P.E.R.) has plummeted from 20.4 last season to a far more average 16.9 this season. West’s production has taken a significant hit in the transition from New Orleans to Indiana (and more specifically, from Chris Paul to Darren Collison), and yet the Pacers have risen to offensive competence specifically by way of West’s addition. His impact is rooted in teamwide augmentation rather than individual dominance, but West has nonetheless served as the impetus behind Indiana’s rise to the Eastern Conference’s second tier.

West’s influence begins with Roy Hibbert, who has made the most profound leap among all Pacers. Not all of Hibbert’s improvements stem from West’s addition alone, but Hibbert himself is the first to credit West (via Conrad Brunner of Pacers.com):

“[West is] probably the biggest reason I’m an All-Star this year,” Hibbert said. “Hands-down, he’s helped my career so much offensively and defensively. We communicate really well on the court. To tell you the truth, we don’t even have to talk.

“We just know each other really well. As weird as that sounds, we can just look at each other and we know what to do. He’s helped me out so much. No disrespect to Tyler (Hansbrough) or Josh McRoberts or Jeff Foster but since D-West got here my game has elevated so much.”

Hibbert’s claims are certainly borne out in the statistical representations of West’s impact. The Pacers have only two consistently effective lineups, both with West and Hibbert as crucial components of their offensive and defensive strategy. That’s indicative of the drop-off between West and reserve forward Tyler Hansbrough, but it also speaks to Hibbert and West’s synergy – that organic compatibility of playing styles and personalities that allows players to feed off one another.

West never shared the court with a true, back-to-the-basket post threat in New Orleans, but he is a natural as Hibbert’s counterpoint. West has not maximized his individual scoring impact with the Pacers yet, but he walks the fine line between spacing the floor for Hibbert with midrange jumpers and remaining active on the offensive glass. When West isn’t spotting up from 18 feet as a way to clear out some room for Hibbert, he gravitates toward the baseline on the block opposite Hibbert. From there, West is technically out of the play action (and out of bounds entirely), but he keeps the passing angles open for Hibbert to kick the ball out to his shooters, doesn’t bring an extra defender into the post, and somehow maintains solid offensive rebounding position in the process. West simply ducks under the rim and fights outward once a shot attempt goes up, giving an off-ball post player the rare box-out advantage on the offensive glass.

And that’s to say nothing of Hibbert and West’s inverted high-low relationship, which creates open spot-up opportunities for Hibbert and high-percentage interior looks for West. The two players have their favorite spots on the floor, but the beauty of their chemistry is that both are largely interchangeable – they form a high-low tandem that is just as easily low-high. Hibbert has many talents, and the reason he and West work so well together – oddly enough – stems from their similar versatility. Both share in and profit from their flexibility, a theme that extends from their specific chemistry to a teamwide context.

Similarly beneficial lines exist between, among others, West and Danny Granger (who shoots a substantially better percentage from every zone with West in the lineup), and West and Darren Collison (who finally has a capable pick-and-roll partner in lieu of Hibbert’s plodding or Hansbrough’s freneticism). The Pacers are still a flawed team with holes to fill, but West’s off-season signing filled perhaps the biggest –- that of the rare, do-it-all post player who brings streaks of offensive and defensive dominance in a team-friendly, facilitating style. West may still not be performing up to his personal standard, but he has managed to fill in the gaps spectacularly.


Wow, this guy totally nailed it. Between making Collison a legitimate facilitator through the seemingly constant barrage of pick/pops, to creating space with Hibbert with his deadly midrange game... he's just really worked out well.

Part of the reason I get so nervous about Hill taking over for Collison though, is that the pick/pop game will go away... which breaks down Hibbert's effectiveness as well, if West isn't drawing that defender.

Day-V
02-29-2012, 10:42 PM
I know a stat that shows West's impact:

22-12.

docpaul
02-29-2012, 10:42 PM
BTW, here is the data the article alludes to:

http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.php?year=2011-2012&team=IND

These are actually fairly startling data, which expose our relative lack of depth.

It's also interesting to see how playing Hill at the 2 seems perhaps more effective than George... however there's a small sample size there, and George's game has really come on here lately.

Anthem
02-29-2012, 11:01 PM
Fantastic write-up.

vnzla81
02-29-2012, 11:07 PM
Good thing he is not talking about West's D.

Infinite MAN_force
02-29-2012, 11:24 PM
The fact that West is playing below his regular standards is not too alarming to me personally, I think it may be post-injury related readjustment, and he should only continue to improve as he rounds back into form.

In fact, I think its a great sign, because we are already playing great, and we will only get better as West recovers to pre-injury form.

LA_Confidential
02-29-2012, 11:36 PM
Honestly, I think D West will be more valuable to us next year than this one. He'll have an entire summer to train and get him self back to pre injury form as well as having the experience of getting acquainted with the team this season.

I think in terms of developement, the team is 1 year ahead of the curve and Wests vet presence has played a good role in that. Factor in whatever Legend does to "strengthen this team" and whatever success we have this season will be magnified next year.

Asher99
02-29-2012, 11:52 PM
Strangely West has better numbers in our losses than he does when we win.

PER36
14.4 and 8.2 in Wins on 45.9% shooting
16.2 and 8.5 in losses on 47.2% shooting

I knew he had big back-to-back games in our losing streak earlier this month but was still a bit surprised to see an almost 2 PPG difference on the PER36. I was also surprised Tyler has a .3 higher PER36 PPG than West despite shooing far worse and taking .9 less shots on the PER36 rate, but I guess making more FT PER36 then the next highest guy on the team even shoots will do that for you.

TheDavisBrothers
02-29-2012, 11:54 PM
Strangely West has better numbers in our losses than he does when we win.

PER36
14.4 and 8.2 in Wins on 45.9% shooting
16.2 and 8.5 in losses on 47.2% shooting

I knew he had big back-to-back games in our losing streak earlier this month but was still a bit surprised to see an almost 2 PPG difference on the PER36. I was also surprised Tyler has a .3 higher PER36 PPG than West despite shooing far worse and taking .9 less shots on the PER36 rate, but I guess making more FT PER36 then the next highest guy on the team even shoots will do that for you.

of course he brings Hans into it...

Asher99
03-01-2012, 12:04 AM
of course he brings Hans into it...

I was just looking at the those numbers for West and was legit surprised to see Tyler scoring at a higher rate despite all those low scoring games he's had when not getting many shots and all the post of him killing the team. I know West is and should be the stater and have never said otherwise. But by all means feel free to make a big deal out of something so minor, you seem good at overreactions posts so why quit doing what you're good at.

ilive4sports
03-01-2012, 12:04 AM
Strangely West has better numbers in our losses than he does when we win.

PER36
14.4 and 8.2 in Wins on 45.9% shooting
16.2 and 8.5 in losses on 47.2% shooting

I knew he had big back-to-back games in our losing streak earlier this month but was still a bit surprised to see an almost 2 PPG difference on the PER36. I was also surprised Tyler has a .3 higher PER36 PPG than West despite shooing far worse and taking .9 less shots on the PER36 rate, but I guess making more FT PER36 then the next highest guy on the team even shoots will do that for you.

West will call his own number more when we are behind, doesn't surprise me he scores more in losses. He's trying to bring us back into games.

And of course Tyler has a higher PER36 PPG, when Tyler is in the game he is looking to score all the time. West isn't.

vnzla81
03-01-2012, 12:06 AM
West will call his own number more when we are behind, doesn't surprise me he scores more in losses. He's trying to bring us back into games.

And of course Tyler has a higher PER36 PPG, when Tyler is in the game he is looking to score all the time. West isn't.

And a lot of times when West is scoring the rest of the team sucks or we are losing bad.

Hicks
03-01-2012, 12:07 AM
Good thing he is not talking about West's D.

http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web05/2011/3/18/1/enhanced-buzz-15854-1300424464-1.jpg

TheDavisBrothers
03-01-2012, 12:14 AM
I was just looking at the those numbers for West and was legit surprised to see Tyler scoring at a higher rate despite all those low scoring games he's had when not getting many shots and all the post of him killing the team. I know West is and should be the stater and have never said otherwise. But by all means feel free to make a big deal out of something so minor, you seem good at overreactions posts so why quit doing what you're good at.

I just good at pointing out your continued Hansbrough agenda ;)

Hicks
03-01-2012, 12:15 AM
I haven't checked in a few weeks, but last I did, West's per 36 stats were almost exactly what he's bene producing for multiple seasons. If that's holding up, I think it's mostly a matter of how many minutes he does or doesn't play.

Asher99
03-01-2012, 12:16 AM
And of course Tyler has a higher PER36 PPG, when Tyler is in the game he is looking to score all the time. West isn't.

West has a 18.1 PER36 PPG in his career acting like Tyler or anyone but Danny being in front of him is some lock is totally off base to me. West needs to get more shots off, as in my view it should be Danny, West, Roy Tyler, PG, Hill.

vnzla81
03-01-2012, 12:17 AM
image

A OK I forgot let's look the other way.......................:sunshine:

Asher99
03-01-2012, 12:20 AM
I just good at pointing out your continued Hansbrough agenda ;)

I do like Tyler that's no secret, but where is a agenda to this post? I know West is better and should be the starter? I want West to get more shots but you are here attempting to hijack the thread and make it all about Tyler and yourself.

TheDavisBrothers
03-01-2012, 12:23 AM
I do like Tyler that's no secret, but where is a agenda to this post? I know West is better and should be the starter? I want West to get more shots but you are here attempting to hijack the thread and make it all about Tyler and yourself.

Don't get your panties in a bunch, jeez

Hicks
03-01-2012, 12:25 AM
A OK I forgot let's look the other way.......................:sunshine:

I'm sure this mentality goes over well with your friends/family/spouse when you point out their flaws, weaknesses, and the things you find unattractive about them...

vnzla81
03-01-2012, 12:29 AM
I'm sure this mentality goes over well with your friends/family/spouse when you point out their flaws, weaknesses, and the things you find unattractive about them...

:confused:

Asher99
03-01-2012, 12:32 AM
Don't get your panties in a bunch, jeez

I'm not the one worked up here. I made a passing comment about something that was a legit surprise when looking at West's and the teams numbers and you make a big deal out of it when there was no reason to. If I was in here saying West sucks and Tyler should be starting then I could see your point, but I clearly know that's not the case.

ilive4sports
03-01-2012, 12:39 AM
West has a 18.1 PER36 PPG in his career acting like Tyler or anyone but Danny being in front of him is some lock is totally off base to me. West needs to get more shots off, as in my view it should be Danny, West, Roy Tyler, PG, Hill.

You realize that Roy gets a whole .4 shots more per game than West right? And considering Roy is shooting over 50% for the season, shouldn't Roy be taking more shots than West?

This team wins as a team. And looking at their FGA's, only Danny and Roy are ahead of West, Roy by .4. I really don't see the need to West to get more shots. Our starting 5 is a very balanced unit and I just want good shots to be taken each time down the court. All 5 of our starters are more than capable on the offensive end.

Asher99
03-01-2012, 01:22 AM
You realize that Roy gets a whole .4 shots more per game than West right....

West is the better overall scorer and needs to take more shots, Roy needs to cut out the long jumper and make his living on the post and off the offensive glass. When playoff time gets here we don't know if Roy is 100% going to have his head on straight and be in the game mentally or if he will get into foul trouble like last year. We know West isn't afraid to take the big shots as he's clutch and come playoff time his mid-range game is going be golden, we need to start using our players like we are going to come May.

Hicks
03-01-2012, 01:26 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westda01.html

<PRE>
Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2003-04 23 NOH NBA 71 1 930 4.2 8.8 .474 0.0 0.1 .000 2.2 3.1 .713 4.5 7.0 11.5 2.3 1.0 1.1 1.9 4.5 10.6
2004-05 24 NOH NBA 30 8 552 4.9 11.2 .436 0.1 0.3 .400 2.2 3.3 .680 2.6 5.8 8.4 1.5 0.8 1.0 2.4 4.0 12.1
2005-06 25 NOK NBA 74 74 2526 7.6 14.8 .512 0.0 0.2 .273 2.8 3.4 .843 2.4 5.4 7.8 1.3 0.9 0.9 1.5 3.0 18.0
2006-07 26 NOK NBA 52 52 1900 7.1 15.0 .476 0.2 0.5 .320 3.5 4.3 .824 2.4 5.6 8.0 2.2 0.8 0.7 1.9 2.7 18.0
2007-08 27 NOH NBA 76 76 2870 7.9 16.4 .482 0.1 0.3 .240 3.8 4.4 .850 2.3 6.2 8.5 2.2 0.8 1.2 2.1 2.6 19.6
2008-09 28 NOH NBA 76 76 2982 7.4 15.6 .472 0.1 0.3 .240 4.4 5.0 .884 1.9 5.9 7.8 2.1 0.6 0.8 2.0 2.5 19.2
2009-10 29 NOH NBA 81 81 2949 7.6 15.0 .505 0.1 0.3 .259 3.6 4.2 .865 2.0 5.4 7.4 2.9 0.9 0.7 2.1 2.8 18.8
2010-11 30 NOH NBA 70 70 2451 7.8 15.3 .508 0.0 0.1 .222 3.9 4.8 .807 2.3 5.5 7.8 2.4 1.0 0.9 2.1 3.0 19.4
2011-12 31 IND NBA 34 34 1009 6.1 13.2 .464 0.1 0.3 .250 2.6 3.3 .796 2.1 6.2 8.3 2.7 1.0 0.9 1.8 3.0 15.0
Career NBA 564 472 18169 7.2 14.8 .489 0.1 0.3 .263 3.5 4.2 .837 2.3 5.8 8.1 2.2 0.8 0.9 1.9 2.9 18.1
</PRE>

Those are David West's per-36 number right now. Aside from the points (which is because he's both making and attempting two less shots per game, and his FG% is down this year), he's basically giving you the same production as last year. About the same rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, turnovers, and fouls.

If he can get his FG% back up closer to 50, it'll almost be identical. One or two less difficult in-traffic attempts replaced by one or two more pick and pops would probably do the trick.

Oh, and I notice his FTAs are down (as is his %). Odds for a shooter to go down like that. Makes me think it'll go back up by next season.

jeffg-body
03-01-2012, 01:31 AM
Numbers and stats aren't everything and DW makes such an impact on the floor and has unselfishly passed up shots that he would have taken to make that extra pass to get us in a better shot. I have been pleasently surprised with the leadership that DW has integrated in this team. He has been a team player through thick and thin.

TheDavisBrothers
03-01-2012, 01:54 AM
I'm not the one worked up here. I made a passing comment about something that was a legit surprise when looking at West's and the teams numbers and you make a big deal out of it when there was no reason to. If I was in here saying West sucks and Tyler should be starting then I could see your point, but I clearly know that's not the case.

I never made a big deal about it... And when you talk about Tyler in about ever other post I'd say that's an agenda...

ilive4sports
03-01-2012, 02:17 AM
West is the better overall scorer and needs to take more shots, Roy needs to cut out the long jumper and make his living on the post and off the offensive glass. When playoff time gets here we don't know if Roy is 100% going to have his head on straight and be in the game mentally or if he will get into foul trouble like last year. We know West isn't afraid to take the big shots as he's clutch and come playoff time his mid-range game is going be golden, we need to start using our players like we are going to come May.

West can score in more ways, but I don't really think he is a better overall scorer. Roy doesn't take the long jumper much at all, but he can hit 15 footers with consistency. He does do most of his work in the post and on the offensive glass.

Roy has consistently been scoring for us in the post and our offense runs great through him since he is an excellent passer. Why should he take less shots when he is shooting the best % of anyone on the team?

Taking the ball out of Roy's hands so West can take a shot or two more a game is a terrible idea.

Asher99
03-01-2012, 02:32 AM
I never made a big deal about it... And when you talk about Tyler in about ever other post I'd say that's an agenda...

Clearly you have made a big deal about it since there's been several other people post in this thread with you the only one bringing up something about me being shocked Tyler actually had a higher PER36 PPG despite all his games with 4 or less points this year.

Tyler is my favorite player on the team and I made that clear since one of my very first posts here, but I fail to see where this thread falls into any type of agenda? I'm not pimping for Tyler to take West job or get his shots and in reality I'm actually pimping for West to get more shots off himself.

TheDavisBrothers
03-01-2012, 02:37 AM
Clearly you have made a big deal about it since there's been several other people post in this thread with you the only one bringing up something about me being shocked Tyler actually had a higher PER36 PPG despite all his games with 4 or less points this year.

Tyler is my favorite player on the team and I made that clear since one of my very first posts here, but I fail to see where this thread falls into any type of agenda? I'm not pimping for Tyler to take West job or get his shots and in reality I'm actually pimping for West to get more shots off himself.

I didn't know that every post you make is automatically a BIG DEAL... That's just asinine... Again when like half your posts involve him, I think that says something...

Asher99
03-01-2012, 02:57 AM
West can score in more ways, but I don't really think he is a better overall scorer. Roy doesn't take the long jumper much at all, but he can hit 15 footers with consistency. He does do most of his work in the post and on the offensive glass.

Roy has consistently been scoring for us in the post and our offense runs great through him since he is an excellent passer. Why should he take less shots when he is shooting the best % of anyone on the team?

Taking the ball out of Roy's hands so West can take a shot or two more a game is a terrible idea.

If you have more ways to score I would say that automatically makes you a better scorer. Also its not as much taking the shots away from Roy as its taking them away from Danny. But as far as Roy goes he's shooting 58.8% from the field against the 6 worst teams in each league over 18 games and just 44.0% against the upper 60% of the league in 14 games. He's still a work in progress when it comes to the prime time lights and come May I want the ball in West's hands as much as I can get it.

Trader Joe
03-01-2012, 03:04 AM
Good thing he is not talking about West's D.

It helps when your backup is even worse at it than you are.

Nuntius
03-01-2012, 03:16 AM
Again when like half your posts involve him, I think that says something...

It says that he has a player crush on him. That's not the same thing with having an agenda.

Asher99
03-01-2012, 03:21 AM
I didn't know that every post you make is automatically a BIG DEAL... That's just asinine... Again when like half your posts involve him, I think that says something...

When you call someone out about something they post when nobody else is talking about it, then its undoubtedly making it a big deal. And the fact you keep going on and on about it is only making it even clear how much you're making it a big deal when nobody seems to care in the slightest.

Yes My post total about Tyler does say something, It says he's my favorite player on the team! A fact that I've made very clear in one of my first post here and something I've never hid in the couple months here. Seriously do really think you've unearthed some big unknown secret here or something?

You are literally hijacking the thread over an additional comment about Tyler that has nothing to do with him getting more shots or anything that would benefit him. Then you're going on and on about this agenda in a thread that where I'm looking for the guy Tyler backs up to get a bigger chunk of the offense which could cost him time!

TheDavisBrothers
03-01-2012, 03:57 AM
When you call someone out about something they post when nobody else is talking about it, then its undoubtedly making it a big deal. And the fact you keep going on and on about it is only making it even clear how much you're making it a big deal when nobody seems to care in the slightest.

Yes My post total about Tyler does say something, It says he's my favorite player on the team! A fact that I've made very clear in one of my first post here and something I've never hid in the couple months here. Seriously do really think you've unearthed some big unknown secret here or something?

You are literally hijacking the thread over an additional comment about Tyler that has nothing to do with him getting more shots or anything that would benefit him. Then you're going on and on about this agenda in a thread that where I'm looking for the guy Tyler backs up to get a bigger chunk of the offense which could cost him time!

I've written like a paragraph on the subject in total and you've written like an essay, and I'm the one hijacking the thread! :laugh: I think you're love for Hans has blinded your reality... I actually find your obsession humorous, I'm not complaining, like you are. If it really bothers you so much then don't comment, simple as that. The only person that's bothered here is you...

BringJackBack
03-01-2012, 05:35 AM
Does anyone else think that barring injury that David West will be even better next season?

A summer to get in better shape, more time with the team, doesn't have to get in shape during training camp, no rehabilitation on his ACL...

Asher99
03-01-2012, 06:24 AM
Does anyone else think that barring injury that David West will be even better next season?

A summer to get in better shape, more time with the team, doesn't have to get in shape during training camp, no rehabilitation on his ACL...

West will no doubt come back better next year! He got off to a slow start with his shot this year after basically getting back into game shape during live action. He's also a little off when forced to play on back-to-back nights, That shouldn't be a issue next year coming in stronger and then not having to deal with this years grueling condensed schedule.

wintermute
03-01-2012, 06:48 AM
BTW, here is the data the article alludes to:

http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.php?year=2011-2012&team=IND

These are actually fairly startling data, which expose our relative lack of depth.

It's also interesting to see how playing Hill at the 2 seems perhaps more effective than George... however there's a small sample size there, and George's game has really come on here lately.

I had a plus minus thread earlier in the season which I haven't updated. The lineup with George Hill at the 2 was played mostly early in the season (because Hill has been injured until recently) and has since been overtaken by other lineups in total minutes. But with Hill healthy again we could see more of that lineup.

I think the only conclusion to draw from plus-minus right now is that we have a very good starting lineup, dominating even, but we've been struggling with an inconsistent bench. All of which are probably evident even without looking at plus-minus :D

danman
03-01-2012, 07:43 AM
He's a great fit. And he's 11 months away from an 18 month injury -- if a full recovery happens at all. Plus, David is moving better now that he was at the start of the season.

Love watching him play. Smart and never panics. Always moves to the right spot.

Unclebuck
03-01-2012, 09:30 AM
I think you can make a very strong case that West is our most valuable player. He is what I like to call the guy that makes everything work. He more than any other player brings the team together, he makes the pieces fit together, it is our glue guy. And it has been quite awhile since we've had a glue guy. The only real way to understand and see his value to our team is to take him away from the court, locker room, the planes, practice, walk throughs, meetings, huddles, bench if he wasn't on our team we would not be nearly as good.

Even though I alluded to it in the paragraph above, let me just say point blank he is our team leader. he has sacrificed his game for the good of the team, and he's made his teammates better and he is a huge reason why we have the 5th best record in the NBA right now.

You'll notice I have not and will not mention any stats in this post. His value cannot be captured by stats.

I mentioned this after seeing him play a game or two in a Pacers uniform. Wow he really knows how to play. He is a fully formed NBA player. He's not a young guy who is trying to learn how to play, he already knows how to play. A player like that gives the rest of the team a lot of confidence.

(sure I wish he was a better defender, I wish he had the athleticism of a young KG)

Unclebuck
03-01-2012, 09:38 AM
Good thing he is not talking about West's D.


I cannot believe I am going to post this, but there is more to the NBA than defense. No, no one has hacked into my account. West does everything else so well for the Pacers I can live with his defense the way it is.

Hicks
03-01-2012, 11:44 AM
Numbers and stats aren't everything and DW makes such an impact on the floor and has unselfishly passed up shots that he would have taken to make that extra pass to get us in a better shot. I have been pleasently surprised with the leadership that DW has integrated in this team. He has been a team player through thick and thin.

That, but really from what I've seen of him on the floor (how he talks to Roy) and what Hibbert himself has said about their relationship, it almost sounds to me like we can thank David West for getting Roy to this all-star level; I think it's been huge for him. A great offensive fit on the floor, and a great mentor / 'big brother' in terms of teaching him, encouraging him, that kind of thing.

vnzla81
03-01-2012, 12:34 PM
I cannot believe I am going to post this, but there is more to the NBA than defense. No, no one has hacked into my account. West does everything else so well for the Pacers I can live with his defense the way it is.

This sounds great and all but if he keeps playing the same type of defense he has been playing until now we won't be moving pass the 1st round, his D is horrible, his offense is not that great either.

Since86
03-01-2012, 12:48 PM
The Pacers aren't going to make it out of the first round, because of how badly DWest is on defense?

Here, waste your time with this instead. Pee away.

http://tonylovellmusic.com/songs/Your%20Cheerios/cheerios.jpg

BrownBearCoffee
03-01-2012, 12:50 PM
This sounds great and all but if he keeps playing the same type of defense he has been playing until now we won't be moving pass the 1st round, his D is horrible, his offense is not that great either.

DW is worth every penny we payed him, and I'll tell you why (don't kill me for this until you take the time to understand what I'm saying): From a mentorship standpoint, David West has been like the David Robinson to Roy Hibbert's Tim Duncan; that is something that is invaluable to a guy like Roy.

HickeyS2000
03-01-2012, 12:52 PM
This sounds great and all but if he keeps playing the same type of defense he has been playing until now we won't be moving pass the 1st round, his D is horrible, his offense is not that great either.

I'm with vnzla81 on this one. I've been underwhelmed on-court, overwhelmed off-court. He is a great teammate and locker room presence, which is really what the Pacers need most out of him, but he misses a lot of bunnies and defensive assignments. You can see it too, he gets so frustrated with himself. I do attribute this to the ACL injury, and believe he will be closer to form next season. And when that happens, look out!!!! :D

90'sNBARocked
03-01-2012, 01:29 PM
I was advocating hard for David West, of all the FA we could have brought in. I felt he would fit much better than say NeNe, for many of the reasons above

West can get his own shot, back his man down, pick and pop , and he really complements Roy. Looking at NeNe's play this season I am sooooooooooo glad we didnt buck up the brinks truck and unload on him

Also, yet another reason I strongly dislike Hollingers "PER"

the PER shows he is having a bad year, but clearly we know the difference

Peck
03-01-2012, 01:53 PM
As long as our perimeter defense is strong David West's defensive weaknesses can be masked. However as with during that 5 game skid if our peremiter defense is non existant than his lack of shot blocking, lateral quickness & frankly effort becomes a major issue. So while Vnzla81 is going a little overboard by saying that alone will cost us the first round he is not incorrect for pointing out that there certainly is a problem there. Trader Joe is also correct.

Our power forward help defense is actually a very big trouble spot for us. Now man to man defense they both hold their own, but stepping up to cut off the drivers is non-extistant when either of them is on the floor.

90'sNBARocked
03-01-2012, 01:56 PM
This is a perfect example to me of why teams dont win "on paper"

I give MAD PROPS to Bird and company the way they quitely went about signing West. Bird knew , probably through talking with others and directly with West his greatest contributions would be intangibles like leadership/communication, keeping plpayers focused, etc

If Bird pulls another coup before the deadline, he will have executive of the year sewn up in my book

vnzla81
03-01-2012, 02:16 PM
As long as our perimeter defense is strong David West's defensive weaknesses can be masked. However as with during that 5 game skid if our peremiter defense is non existant than his lack of shot blocking, lateral quickness & frankly effort becomes a major issue. So while Vnzla81 is going a little overboard by saying that alone will cost us the first round he is not incorrect for pointing out that there certainly is a problem there. Trader Joe is also correct.

Our power forward help defense is actually a very big trouble spot for us. Now man to man defense they both hold their own, but stepping up to cut off the drivers is non-extistant when either of them is on the floor.

My point of not making out the first round is because I am looking at the playoffs match ups and there are probably 3 teams that have power forwards that are as equal or as bad defenders as Dwest(Chicago, Sixers, Orlando), other than that I don't see a power forward that West could stop for doing his thing.

Ignoring his defense because he makes good passes and is a good leader is ridiculous to me, didn't we destroy Troy Murphy for his horrible D for years even though he was putting better numbers than West? crazy right?

Again, to win on the playoffs you need to play defense, there is a reason why Tom T always uses Gibson to shut people down instead of Boozer's passing ability and shooting, you win with defense.


edit: I mentioned Orlando and Philly but if I remember correctly our power forwards made their guys look like Hall of Famers(Young and Anderson).

Unclebuck
03-01-2012, 02:27 PM
Ignoring his defense because he makes good passes and is a good leader is ridiculous to me, didn't we destroy Troy Murphy for his horrible D for years even though he was putting better numbers than West? crazy right?



You act like there are three degrees of defensive players. Good, bad and average and that both Troy and West are bad, therefore they are the same. West is a much better defender than Troy. Troy is probably the worst defensive power forward in the whole NBA. West isn't near that level

vnzla81
03-01-2012, 02:35 PM
You act like there are three degrees of defensive players. Good, bad and average and that both Troy and West are bad, therefore they are the same. West is a much better defender than Troy. Troy is probably the worst defensive power forward in the whole NBA. West isn't near that level

West is not near that level but he is pretty bad, by the way could it be possible that Murphy looked worse because he was playing with teammates that were just as bad on D? I've seen him on the Lakers with Bynum and he is not looking as bad as he looked here.

pacer4ever
03-01-2012, 02:37 PM
You act like there are three degrees of defensive players. Good, bad and average and that both Troy and West are bad, therefore they are the same. West is a much better defender than Troy. Troy is probably the worst defensive power forward in the whole NBA. West isn't near that level

agreed West defense is a lot better than people are making it out to be

the reason the game of basketball is so intriguing and how teams are built is intriguing IMO because the players have to fit each other. Carlos Boozer is a awful defender almost Troy bad. But The Bulls have done a beautiful job of putting guys around him that mask his weakness. Lou Deng and Noah are the perfect guys to put next to a weak defender. Basketball players cant be judged on their play alone the system and the players around them have a lot to do with how they perform and that is why constructing a team that fits well together is key.


I have to laugh at Vnz Tyler is a "beast" yet West is superior on both sides of the ball(but he sucks:laugh:) and on offense it isn't even close.

just love the hypocrisy

vnzla81
03-01-2012, 02:44 PM
agreed West defense is a lot better than people are making it out to be

the reason the game of basketball is so intriguing and how teams are built is intriguing IMO because the players have to fit each other. Carlos Boozer is a awful defender almost Troy bad. But The Bulls have done a beautiful job of putting guys around him that mask his weakness. Lou Deng and Noah are the perfect guys to put next to a weak defender. Basketball players cant be judged on their play alone the system and the players around them have a lot to do with how they perform and that is why constructing a team that fits well together is key.


I have to laugh at Vnz Tyler is a "beast" yet West is superior on both sides of the ball(but he sucks:laugh:) and on offense it isn't even close.

just love the hypocrisy

I guess you had me on ignore or you only read what you want because I've been dissapointed of Tyler all year I even mentioned "our power forwards made Anderson/Young look like Hall of Famers", find me a post on this thread were I'm saying that "Tyler is a beast" yep once again you are full of crap.

I also like that you are mentioning Boozer as an awful defender and Boozer's D is similar to West's, so I wonder what that makes West.

ECKrueger
03-01-2012, 02:47 PM
I feel like almost every thread ends in a stupid argument over pointless, minor details.

Day-V
03-01-2012, 03:39 PM
The Pacers aren't going to make it out of the first round, because of how badly DWest is on defense?

Here, waste your time with this instead. Pee away.

http://tonylovellmusic.com/songs/Your%20Cheerios/cheerios.jpg

This.

Trader Joe
03-01-2012, 03:45 PM
This sounds great and all but if he keeps playing the same type of defense he has been playing until now we won't be moving pass the 1st round, his D is horrible, his offense is not that great either.

We should have paid Nene 14 million dollars and then we would be NBA champs.

We may not make it out of the first round, I don't know, (though right now I would like our chances against the Hawks or Sixers), but West's D won't be the reason why. As long as George and Granger are bringing effort defensively, it helps mask everything West cannot do on defense. West's impact on our offense has been huge. He clearly helps Roy when it comes to spacing much more than Tyler or McRoberts ever did.

vnzla81
03-01-2012, 03:48 PM
We should have paid Nene 14 million dollars and then we would be NBA CHAMPIONSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Good way of trying to get those thanks coming, good job.

I predict over 10 thanks, that should make you feel good.

Trader Joe
03-01-2012, 03:49 PM
My point of not making out the first round is because I am looking at the playoffs match ups and there are probably 3 teams that have power forwards that are as equal or as bad defenders as Dwest(Chicago, Sixers, Orlando), other than that I don't see a power forward that West could stop for doing his thing.

Ignoring his defense because he makes good passes and is a good leader is ridiculous to me, didn't we destroy Troy Murphy for his horrible D for years even though he was putting better numbers than West? crazy right?

Again, to win on the playoffs you need to play defense, there is a reason why Tom T always uses Gibson to shut people down instead of Boozer's passing ability and shooting, you win with defense.


edit: I mentioned Orlando and Philly but if I remember correctly our power forwards made their guys look like Hall of Famers(Young and Anderson).

Of course you give West a pass you never gave Murphy because of his leadership. And I think West's D actually shows improvement in crunch time, something you could never say about Murphy. West has delivered on more than one occasion in big situations already for us and he's not even 100% yet. I give him great credit to even be this far along on his ACL recovery. Very few players ever have done as well he has to come back as quickly as he did and even at this level of play.

Trader Joe
03-01-2012, 03:50 PM
Good way of trying to get those thanks coming, good job.

I predict over 10 thanks, that should make you feel good.

I had already edited it by the time you posted, you're slow on the draw.

Also, you're the one who always brings up "thanks" when talking to me or about me. I, for one, could care less whether one person, zero people or -10 people thank one of my posts, but you seem to be very intent on harping on it. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Vnzla, you're one of the biggest "stats don't mean everything" guys on this board and yet here you are bringing Troy Murphy into a conversation about David West, how does that make any sense?

Trader Joe
03-01-2012, 03:56 PM
I feel like almost every thread ends in a stupid argument over pointless, minor details.

Is this really a minor detail in this case? Vnzla is wondering why people give David West a pass for his average to below average D, but never gave a pass to Murphy...I mean try to digest that one for a second.

EDIT: Also, everyone is acting like West's stats are terrible, when in reality, they are pretty close to on par with his career averaged. He's just playing 5-6 less minutes a game then he has in his career in the past. Last year West played 35 MPG, this year he is playing 29.7 MPG. And even with playing nearly 6 minutes less per game, he is only averaging .7 less rebounds a game than he did last year. West averaged 7.5 RPG last year and is at 6.8 last year. So maybe his assists are down? Nope again. Last year in nearly 6 more MPG West averaged 2.3 APG that has dropped down a whopping .1 APG this season to 2.2 APG.

So yeah, his scoring is down, but he's also recovering from one of the most catastrophic physical injuries you can have. However, his rebounds and assists are virtually identical to last year and he is doing it in 6 less minutes a game. That is impressive. David West having a poor statistical season? I say bullocks.

docpaul
03-01-2012, 05:16 PM
Jeez, how many people actually read the article?

It's about West's complementary nature offensively.

Not about his stats, not about his defensive play.

Why is it that people want to pick apart each individual player's weaknesses, when most of those don't manner in the milieu of a game that's played as a team?

Most NBA players have to be spectacularly bad at a specific skill (read: Murphy) or poorly matched up with non-complementary teammates (read: GSW) for it to have real, fundamental meaning.

I can see pointing out that we have no real consistently effective second team lineup. I can see pointing out that we, as a team, seem to struggle feeding the low post effectively.

But to pick apart West's average to subpar team defensive skills seems like a waste of time, and borderline trollish.

Hibbert: "I am an all-star this year because of West"

Record: 22-12

Team: happy, cohesive

:confused:

gummy
03-01-2012, 05:51 PM
I feel like almost every thread ends in a stupid argument over pointless, minor details.

I think that's pretty accurate, although the details aren't always minor - it's just the way some people structure their arguments (and don't know how to let anything go) that's the problem, imo. I try to read all the posts before I respond in a thread and for the past 6 months or so by the time I get to the end I am annoyed enough that I don't even bother half the time. I can't avoid it by using my ignore list because the people I want to ignore the most tend to get quoted over and over again. Besides, the thread has often been narrowed down into "Yes, he is/X sucks!" and "No, he isn't/x doesn't suck!" anyway, so I figure - what's the point?

It's disheartening, especially when the team is doing so well overall. That's not to say there shouldn't be disagreement and discussion - of course there should be, it's a message board. But does almost every thread have to end in :box:? There have definitely been periods of time when in-depth but at least semi-respectful disagreements were normal around here, and no, it wasn't "boring." Now the board seems to be dripping with sarcasm, exaggeration, and self-congratulation. I'd hoped the combativeness would ease up just a bit post-JOB, but it really hasn't.

Ah well. I should be working anyway. :cool:

Anthem
03-01-2012, 06:19 PM
If West really wanted to, he could score more points than he currently is. Same's true of Roy, Danny, Paul George, and Collison.

Every one of the starters has sacrificed a couple ppg in order to build a well-rounded offense.

ilive4sports
03-01-2012, 06:31 PM
If West really wanted to, he could score more points than he currently is. Same's true of Roy, Danny, Paul George, and Collison.

Every one of the starters has sacrificed a couple ppg in order to build a well-rounded offense.

And our team is better for it.

vnzla81
03-01-2012, 06:38 PM
If West really wanted to, he could score more points than he currently is. Same's true of Roy, Danny, Paul George, and Collison.

Every one of the starters has sacrificed a couple ppg in order to build a well-rounded offense.

Indiana is in the middle in scoring I'm pretty sure they are looking to score more and yes I know we are 22 and 12.

Edit: and we are still on the bottom 8 at shooting percentage.

Nuntius
03-01-2012, 06:52 PM
Again, to win on the playoffs you need to play defense, there is a reason why Tom T always uses Gibson to shut people down instead of Boozer's passing ability and shooting, you win with defense.


This part is true. However, Gibson can shoot and pass as well. Gibson is not only a good defender. He is a great role player that can defend and provide you valuable offense to boot.

We don't have a player like Gibson to back up West. Hans may be a better scorer than Gibson (mainly because he can draw more fouls and hit most of his FTs) but defensively he is not the upgrade that Gibson is to Boozer.

Lou is our best defender at PF. I doubt that we would want to see Lou getting major time during the playoffs. He is an excellent defender but offensively he is not as good as Gibson.

If we could merge Lou and Hans together (and get a Louer Amundsbrough or a Tylis Hanson) then we could use this hybrid in the same way that Tom T uses Gibson. We cannot do this, though.

Anthem
03-01-2012, 07:10 PM
Edit: and we are still on the bottom 8 at shooting percentage.
Do you know any way to see team shooting percentage by game? I'd like to see what it's been like recently. I expect that a lot of the really poor shooting came early in the season, and will drag down the percentage all season long. But I don't know how to get that data.

Nuntius
03-01-2012, 07:23 PM
Do you know any way to see team shooting percentage by game? I'd like to see what it's been like recently. I expect that a lot of the really poor shooting came early in the season, and will drag down the percentage all season long. But I don't know how to get that data.

According to teamrankings.com we are shooting 44% in the last 3 games. Our effective FG is at 48.4%. Our non-blocked 2 Pt is at 52.2%.

I guess that the most disappointing fact is that we are in the 28th place in non-blocked 2 Pt attempts for the whole season shooting 49%. In this category we're only better than the Pistons (48.7%) and the Bobcats (48.1%). Even the Wizards are slightly above us (49.1%).

The good thing is that we still are a good team despite missing several open shots.

PS: Here's the link -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/non-blocked-2-pt-pct

90'sNBARocked
03-01-2012, 07:29 PM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-chat-with-mark-nugent-3112



Cain

With Rondo being shopped any chance Pacers make a play? Granger + Collison for Rondo + Allen?

Mark Nugent

I haven’t heard anything. I’m not sure Rondo is a good fit for the Pacers, Ray Allen certainly is though. The Pacers need their PG to be able to hit a Jumper in order to provide spacing for their slashers and Hibbert in the paint. I just don’t see Rondo making the Pacers that much better because of his issues offensively. He’d be great on defense.

vnzla81
03-01-2012, 07:31 PM
Do you know any way to see team shooting percentage by game? I'd like to see what it's been like recently. I expect that a lot of the really poor shooting came early in the season, and will drag down the percentage all season long. But I don't know how to get that data.

I have no idea but I know that this last few games got us moving from bottom 5 to bottom 8, we are still missing a lot shots.

edit: Here are the numbers from the last five games, we are ranked at 11th(last five games).

http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable1.html#top

Hicks
03-01-2012, 11:02 PM
I think the best measurement of team offense and defense is OFF EFF and DEF EFF because that way you don't get deceived when a team has a low FG% but gets offensive rebounds (or defensively, gets people to miss but can't get enough D rebounds), plus it balances every team by accounting for pace.

The Pacers are currently 13th in the league in OFF EFF (which sounds about right to me), while our DEF EFF is currently 7th, which also seems about right to me.

We're fine. Nothing spectacular, but we're doing quite well overall. When you're in the top half in both OFF EFF and also DEF EFF, and one of the two is top 10 (preferably top 5, however), you're doing a lot of things right.

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/order/false