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Trader Joe
02-29-2012, 12:25 PM
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7612311/an-oral-history-malice-palace

It's long, but it's a must read....wow.

I'll just copy this one bit

O'Neal: I don't know if I could ever apologize to the city of Indianapolis and the state of Indiana for that enough. I don't know if there's enough apologies in the world to give to that city. That city meant a lot to me. It still means a lot to me. For them to go through what they went through on a national scene and the embarrassment it brought to the city and my community and my organization, I apologize for. If there's anything you can get across, please get that across. I don't know if people understand that the people that were there from that regime, from the brawl, could not shake it. We couldn't shake that whole thing. It seemed like the team was fractured.

CT Pacer
02-29-2012, 12:29 PM
Just finished reading this...damn that was a good team. :-(

Hicks
02-29-2012, 12:31 PM
I just finished reading it myself and was coming to share it if someone else had not already.

Absolutely must-read for any of us who were around back then to watch and react to that. I know a lot about it, but I learned new things (people who were there that I didn't realize, what happened in the locker room immediately afterwards, miscellaneous other details) and there were a lot of reflective quotes from many of the people involved that night.

The article I felt could have been a little better in terms of including some other facts (thinking right now of other issues that hurt the Pacers after the brawl; like Tinsley's off court stuff, and then also neglecting to mention Roy as one of our new bright spots), but it's mostly good stuff.

I felt a little emotional by the time I got done reading it. We're STILL feeling the repercussions of that damned thing.

I almost wish I had taken notes because at various points I wanted to stop and write commentary about it on here.

Pacers13Colts12
02-29-2012, 12:46 PM
I found it interesting that the guy who Jermaine punched was previously banned from the arena and security had asked him to leave at halftime. Did not know that. Pretty good article, but honestly, I hope it doesn't become a BIG article. The Pacers are finally past all that mess and it is just going to open up old wounds.

90'sNBARocked
02-29-2012, 12:48 PM
Always ALWAYS will remember how Stern punked the *** out of us

Ben Wallace started it, but got the least suspension of all parties involved

Yeah Ron was in the worng but so was the NBA, I really thought we might go to the finals that year. The we panicked and over reacted the following year and it was downhill until this year

BPump33
02-29-2012, 12:49 PM
Such a great read. I just had a small back and forth with the author on Twitter. He had this to say:

Jonathan Abrams ‏ @Jpdabrams
@BPump33 hopefully JO's last quote means a great deal to you

When I read JO's quote, I honestly almost teared up. A change was absolutely needed and getting Roy made the deal even better, but what a classy thing for JO to say.

MTM
02-29-2012, 12:51 PM
I just mentioned this article in the post-game thread for the game last night.

Reading that article made me compare the character/mental stability of the guys on this team against the guys on that team. That team was SO talented - probably the most confident I have ever been at the beginning of a season that we would be playing in the finals. But that team lacked character/mental stability with a couple of its leaders, and that was the downfall.

Comparing players from that team to this team, by the way Tyler plays on the court, and his reputation as "Psycho T", Tyler would be one of the first guys you might think would be crazy enough to lose it during a game. However, watching him for the past couple years has really made me grow to appreciate his character. He certainly plays more "rugged" and at times, out of control, than any other player on our team. He dishes out more elbows, pushes, shoves, runs guys over, and generally plays like a tornado. (Not all that different to the Ron Artest style).

However, when the whistle blows, Tyler typically keeps his mouth shut and stops the action. He keeps his hard-nosed efforts between the lines and quits when the echo of the whistle is over. I respect him for it. It would be tough to be a guy who hits, and gets hit, as much as he does, to keep his cool. But he generally does. I really respect it and don't miss the chirping of Stephen Jackson / Jermaine O'Neal / Scott Pollard, who weren't as rugged but found ways to get into arguments with officials and players on a regular basis. And I don't miss the Ron-Ron who wrecked the franchise.

duke dynamite
02-29-2012, 12:56 PM
I haven't read it just yet. I saw Mike Wells post the link earlier today but I was busy. After seeing your thoughts/comments, I cannot wait to read it.

BPump33
02-29-2012, 12:58 PM
This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but I thought I'd share anyway. From the day of the brawl until an hour ago I have ALWAYS blamed Ben Wallace. Always. To me, he was absolutely scum. The article changed that quite a bit. To see that Ron went after him for the sole purpose of delivering a cheap shot AND it was pre-meditated makes me a little sick. I always assumed the foul was just Ron being Ron and playing the whole 48 minutes.

I still think Wallace overreacted, but I understand his frustration a little more now. A lot of people did A LOT of things wrong that night, but I will no longer solely blame Ben Wallace. It was probably stupid that I did, anyway.

wintermute
02-29-2012, 01:06 PM
This section sums it up for me:



Olko: I got asked questions like how many investigators I had on it. Well, one. We were dealing with other things going on in the community. Where should I invest my resources? On the millionaires with misdemeanor cases?

McCosky: The coverage of it went on for months, and you would think people actually died or whatnot. People kind of lost sight of how it started and who was actually involved and who was a peacemaker. It just became another ugly mark on Detroit.

O'Neal: [Everyone] decided to talk about the negative things. I honestly believe that's why the dress code came into play. Because all of a sudden now the league is "out of control." I watched the analysts, the so-called analysts, on national TV say the NBA is too hip-hoppish. And it really blew me away that supposed analysts would even first of all say that. Your choice of music doesn't dictate who you are as a person. Right after the brawl, the dress code came into play.

Olko: One surprising thing that happened was how much flak we got from the public. People from Detroit were angry that we didn't arrest the Pacers. Indianapolis people said we only prosecuted Pacer players because we were partial to the Detroit team — which is just goofy. Again, misdemeanor assaults.

Ham: I think [the media] twisted it. Out-of-control NBA players were at the forefront of the story as opposed to fan behavior. [Fans] talk about a player can't shoot or can't dribble, that's one thing. But I've seen things in the past when fans start talking about a player's kids, their wives — to even cross the line furthermore, to throw something, I don't think that particular part of the story was addressed properly or as extensive as these "wild black guys playing in the NBA." It's unfortunate, but that's the society we live in.


Olko is the Detroit police guy; McClosky is a Detroit journalist.

The thing that amazed me (and still does) is how it turned into such a big deal. How the Pacers suddenly became painted as villains, as the embodiment of everything's that's wrong in society.

I'm not saying our guys were angels - Artest, Sjax, J.O. all did wrong - but their crimes were basically at a bar-room brawl level, escalated into a public spectacle thanks to the lack of crowd control and the presence of TV cameras.

Frankly, it seems like the Pacers' real crime was in damaging the NBA's carefully cultivated public image, and that's why the hammer came down disproportionately on our side.

PacersHomer
02-29-2012, 01:09 PM
Massive failure by Detroit and the NBA. They were on the same level as the Pacers and even the fans in this case. How do you not have proper security for a team based in Detroit, and how do the refs let this get out of control to the extent where Wallace and Artest were in a cheapshot contest? Pathetic.

Amazing story, a must read for any NBA fan.

Since86
02-29-2012, 01:12 PM
The immaturity is on full display. Saying you know how wrong it is to be involved in something like that, but then saying you don't know what you would do if it happened again is shocking.

Just so focused on whether or not going into the stands was the right course of action, misses the much bigger problem of being able to keep your head in the moment.

Ace E.Anderson
02-29-2012, 01:12 PM
You almost forget how good/dominant of a team that Pacer team was. You look at some of those guys now, J.O (old and broken down) World Peace (avg 4 ppg) Tinsley (can't get off the bench behind Harris and Watson) and it just makes you think. What would have happened if this never took place? Where would that team have gone? Would we win a championship? How many? SO many lives and careers were forever changed on that day.

And I still remember it like it were yesterday....

Pacers13Colts12
02-29-2012, 01:12 PM
I'm glad someone (maybe Boyle) brought up the fact that it wasn't the brawl that set the Pacers back, it was Ron demanding a trade. I think that is what really pissed everyone off, I know it did for me. I stood behind Ron until he demanded a trade, but once he did, I was soooo pissed.

BillS
02-29-2012, 01:18 PM
An excellent article, but boy am I depressed now.

danman
02-29-2012, 01:20 PM
I remember where I watched that game.

As a longtime fan going back to the ABA, I remember thinking that the suspensions would be much shorter. And in the aftermath, I remember the estimates from the pundits, from low to high. Stern's suspensions were harsher than the highest estimates by a lot. They were unprecedented.

And all the pundits nodded in approval after they were announced. It didn't matter if the the punishment was double their prediction.

I will always believe that the punishment was about image, and that image was partially about race.

In the end, a commissioner like Stern is charged with protecting the bottom line. Money. Not justice. I don't even blame him for doing so and trying to fig leaf it with justice. He's not a judge in a court of law.

But I remain irritated that the media laid down on it. Weak sauce.

Nuntius
02-29-2012, 01:20 PM
I haven't read Jackson's statements earlier. If he really means what he said then I have a new respect for him.

The Sleeze
02-29-2012, 01:27 PM
Jackson: I knew we had to get out of this arena before all these guys in the nosebleed seats got down to our section. That's the felons, the guys that really don't care about losing anything. If they come down there, somebody's going to really get hurt

This part made me laugh, and then I remembered how good that team could have been....damn.

Hicks
02-29-2012, 01:27 PM
This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but I thought I'd share anyway. From the day of the brawl until an hour ago I have ALWAYS blamed Ben Wallace. Always. To me, he was absolutely scum. The article changed that quite a bit. To see that Ron went after him for the sole purpose of delivering a cheap shot AND it was pre-meditated makes me a little sick. I always assumed the foul was just Ron being Ron and playing the whole 48 minutes.

I still think Wallace overreacted, but I understand his frustration a little more now. A lot of people did A LOT of things wrong that night, but I will no longer solely blame Ben Wallace. It was probably stupid that I did, anyway.

Not to mention he just had a brother of his die a couple of days earlier.

BillS
02-29-2012, 01:28 PM
The immaturity is on full display. Saying you know how wrong it is to be involved in something like that, but then saying you don't know what you would do if it happened again is shocking.

Just so focused on whether or not going into the stands was the right course of action, misses the much bigger problem of being able to keep your head in the moment.

At the risk of opening the can of worms that was PD after the incident, I think anyone who has been in one of those split-second fight-or-flight decision situations understands that you can intellectualize all you want and HOPE you will react properly the next time, but you really don't KNOW how you will react. When the "monkey brain" takes over you are by definition trying to survive the situation, not thinking about what to do.

It is why emergency crews are trained to the point of reflex. Basketball players and fans are not.

BPump33
02-29-2012, 01:31 PM
Not to mention he just had a brother of his die a couple of days earlier.

Agreed. I was surprised to read that Jackson and Wallace now go out of their way to shake hands. It sounds like Jackson still holds a grudge with Ron over the trade request.

Hicks
02-29-2012, 01:32 PM
I'm glad someone (maybe Boyle) brought up the fact that it wasn't the brawl that set the Pacers back, it was Ron demanding a trade. I think that is what really pissed everyone off, I know it did for me. I stood behind Ron until he demanded a trade, but once he did, I was soooo pissed.

I still completely disagree with anyone who thinks the brawl didn't set the Pacers back. It ABSOLUTELY did. Case in point: Why do you think Ron demanded a trade? The fallout of that night is absolutely at least one big part of the reason why Artest did that. It's not just what happened that night, it's the MOUNTAIN OF FALLOUT AND CONSEQUENCES; THE DOMINO EFFECT that set the Pacers back.

MyFavMartin
02-29-2012, 01:32 PM
The night it happened the crew covering it on ESPN was defensive of the player's reactions and sided with them.

Next day, complete flip-flop.

Since86
02-29-2012, 01:33 PM
At the risk of opening the can of worms that was PD after the incident, I think anyone who has been in one of those split-second fight-or-flight decision situations understands that you can intellectualize all you want and HOPE you will react properly the next time, but you really don't KNOW how you will react. When the "monkey brain" takes over you are by definition trying to survive the situation, not thinking about what to do.

It is why emergency crews are trained to the point of reflex. Basketball players and fans are not.

I've been in plenty of situations where stuff like this goes on. I've had a gun pulled on me. My reaction then was pretty stupid, and I fully acknowledge that I've lost my temper a few times in the heat of the moment.


But at the same time, when Jax uses this as an example of how good of a teammate he is, it makes you stratch your head. He shouldn't be glorifying the situation. Should be extremely embarassed, instead of patting himself on the back.

Another example would be how someone talked about how the passed the Pistons family room, where people are laughing about how Ben's brother missing the punch on Fred Jones.

It's disgusting.

BPump33
02-29-2012, 01:33 PM
The night it happened the crew covering it on ESPN was defensive of the player's reactions and sided with them.

Next day, complete flip-flop.

That still angers me to this day.

pacers74
02-29-2012, 01:34 PM
What a great read. I remember exactly where I was that night and as soon as the brawl happened I was on the phone calling people to make sure they saw it too.
That team really was a great team. Most sports writers predicited us to come out of the east that year. That game was a nationally televised game and probably was one the biggest sporting events going on that week( even with the NFL).
It has taken us almost 8 years to get back to a place where we are even metioned in the top half of the eastern conference. This team is on a big upswing and I hope nothing knocks them off of it like what happened 8 years ago. If they keeping playing like they are now, maybe next season we will have the same expectations that the 2004 team did before that one horrible night.

BillS
02-29-2012, 01:36 PM
But at the same time, when Jax uses this as an example of how good of a teammate he is, it makes you stratch your head. He shouldn't be glorifying the situation. Should be extremely embarassed, instead of patting himself on the back.

Yeah, I agree. I guess I <i>understand</i> the "street mentality", but I don't have to like it.

Which, to me, is a reason why the dress code was a good thing. Like any other uniform, if you have to dress differently than you would do every day (or might have while you were growing up), it makes you separate yourself from those everyday (or youthful) emotions. You treat the world differently in a suit than you do in jams and a long T.

pacers74
02-29-2012, 01:37 PM
I remember being mad at Stephen Jackson when he was still arguing with Ben Wallace. I kept saying Ron is just lying on the table, just walk away Jackson and it will be all over.

BPump33
02-29-2012, 01:41 PM
I remember being mad at Stephen Jackson when he was still arguing with Ben Wallace. I kept saying Ron is just lying on the table, just walk away Jackson and it will be all over.

I was a junior in college. I was drunk in my fraternity house. Like most of us I had a downright hatred for the Pistons at the time. I was 100% behind our guys. I was loving that JO threw a punch at "Turtle," loved the dustpan, loved that Jackson went to the defense of his new teammates. I went to bed feeling drunk and satisfied after watching the media place all the blame on Detroit.

I woke up the next day with one of the worst hangovers/realizations I've ever had in my life.

Pacers13Colts12
02-29-2012, 01:44 PM
I still completely disagree with anyone who thinks the brawl didn't set the Pacers back. It ABSOLUTELY did. Case in point: Why do you think Ron demanded a trade? The fallout of that night is absolutely at least one big part of the reason why Artest did that. It's not just what happened that night, it's the MOUNTAIN OF FALLOUT AND CONSEQUENCES; THE DOMINO EFFECT that set the Pacers back.

I see your point, and I agree. I'm just saying I think people forget they were still good the next year, but the trade request really blew everything up.

Smits Happens
02-29-2012, 01:53 PM
I was glad they mentioned how the team was hurt by Ron's trade request after they had his back through the ordeal, but what they didn't mention was how for the most part the fans stayed behind Ron and supported him, not to mention Larry and the front office. So he didn't just hurt some players' feelings, he turned his back on the entire fan base and crushed our dreams dreams of one last title run for Reggie. I remember feeling hurt and betrayed, then just downright pissed.

diamonddave00
02-29-2012, 01:57 PM
You'll never convince me that had Pacers been from Los Angeles, Chicago or New York that David Stern would have down on them so hard. The fact even Larry Bird expected only a 10 game suspention of Ron shows, how heavy handed Stern was.

Jermaine O'Neal , once again to me showed he is a class guy. He to this day feels sorry he could not bring a Championship to Indianapolis.

All you have to read to see how unbalanced Ron Artest , was or still is was; his comment - Do you think we'll be in trouble - that is totally unreal.

The sad part is I truly believe Jermaine was right the Pacers would have won the title that season and maybe a couple more. In many ways they could have become another San Antonio Spurs, a respected multi-championship franchise.

Sadly due to several forces coming together in the Palace to create the Perfect Storm that never happened. The events that followed Ron's trade demand mainly , robbed the Franchise and fans of the joy of glory. Who knows if it will ever come ?

Aw Heck
02-29-2012, 01:58 PM
Great read.

I know this is immature on my part, but I still haven't forgiven Artest for all of the damage he caused this franchise. While his apology to Indiana after the Lakers won the Finals was a decent gesture, it wasn't good enough for me. There was no satisfactory atonement to the Pacers or the fans for his actions.

I think we were all under the impression the following season that Artest was going to try to make amends for all that he had done, that he would come back with a fire and something to prove.

And what did we get? Whining about wanting time off to promote his crappy CD and and a trade demand one month into the season.

Sorry Ron, no apology is good enough. You better come back and do something really extraordinary for the Indianapolis community or something.

yoadknux
02-29-2012, 02:06 PM
Wow dude, thanks so much for sharing this. Has a lot of insight. Any NBA fan who heard about or had seen the incident must read this.

duke dynamite
02-29-2012, 02:08 PM
The one thing that has been going through my mind (I'm only 1/2 way through the article) is that the city was behind this team and Ron 100% during this entire ordeal, the sentencing/suspensions, the appeals process and the aftermath. Attendance was good.

We took replacement players, got Dale Davis back and made it to the second round of the playoffs against... The Pistons, mind you.

It wasn't until the Tinsley/SJax off-court things happened that soured everyone.

This entire chain of events should've been on ESPN's 30 for 30. It would've made an amazing documentary. At least that's how I'm envisioning this article in my mind as I read.

diamonddave00
02-29-2012, 02:10 PM
Very true Duke they should still do a 30 for 30 on it.

Pacers13Colts12
02-29-2012, 02:12 PM
The one thing that has been going through my mind (I'm only 1/2 way through the article) is that the city was behind this team and Ron 100% during this entire ordeal, the sentencing/suspensions, the appeals process and the aftermath. Attendance was good.

We took replacement players, got Dale Davis back and made it to the second round of the playoffs against... The Pistons, mind you.

It wasn't until the Tinsley/SJax off-court things happened that soured everyone.

This entire chain of events should've been on ESPN's 30 for 30. It would've made an amazing documentary. At least that's how I'm envisioning this article in my mind as I read.

Exactly. The coaching job Carlisle did that season was amazing. I'd like for them to do a 30 for 30 and have insights from Britton Johnson, Tremaine Fowlkes and Michael Curry.

Rogco
02-29-2012, 02:21 PM
Always ALWAYS will remember how Stern punked the *** out of us

Ben Wallace started it, but got the least suspension of all parties involved



I hate David Stern. Partly because he's awful at his job, partly because he was the architect behind the labor agreement in '99 that was just awful and gave way to much money to the players, partly because he believes that big market teams are the only way to grow the NBA, but mainly for his rulings after the brawl.

In any other sport in any other country in the world, the team responsible for not being able to control it's fans would be the team to be heavily punished. Suspension were due, though I think they were unfairly harsh on the Pacers and oddly light to Detroit, but the Detroit organization should have been punished for failure to control it's fans. Loss of draft picks, ban from post season play for a couple years, some sort of revenue loss, implimentation of a crowd control scheme, etc... This event epitomized everything that is wrong with Stern (except his hair, which is just wrong in it's own right). He made a lot of noise, punished the players of the smaller revenue generating team unfairly, didn't punish the awful refs (which would have saved him a lot of embarrassment later) and then completely failed to deal with the big issue of lack of organization fan control.

IMO Stern has been an awful commissioner and I'm amazed he is still around. This was probably one of his worst in a long line of mistakes. Could you imagine if he'd managed to force through the Chris Paul to LA trade? One of the most one-sided trades ever proposed in the NBA. Luckily there are now out-spoken (and rich) owners of small-market teams who have had enough of his bull.

diamonddave00
02-29-2012, 02:22 PM
You left out Marcus Haislip.

Hicks
02-29-2012, 02:25 PM
I have to be honest: While there's things I did and still do like about him, upon reflecting back on his entire time with our franchise (remember he had plenty of issues BEFORE that night; fighting with JO, breaking things, unnecessary flagrant fouls, already requesting a trade, etc.) while simultaneously working my way through the article this morning... part of me hates Ron Artest and that he ever wore our jersey. Even if he can't help it, the guy was a freaking menace, and his presence caused more harm that I ever could have possibly imagined. It still haunts me / the team / the community's relationship with the team to this very day.

Kstat
02-29-2012, 02:29 PM
Could you imagine if he'd managed to force through the Chris Paul to LA trade? One of the most one-sided trades ever proposed in the NBA. Luckily there are now out-spoken (and rich) owners of small-market teams who have had enough of his bull.

:picard:

thewholefnshow31
02-29-2012, 02:30 PM
What a fantastic read. I still remember where I was on that night. I was sitting with some friends at home and none of us could believe what we were witnessing.

What I could not believe was how one sided the coverage was the next day. There was barely anyone ripping how the fans reacted. All the blame was put on the Pacers and how we were the villains. How that POS not thrown the beer none of this would have happened.

To me fans have got worse in every sport. The media could have covered how fans are feeling way to entitled once they buy the tickets. I have the disposable income to go to Pacers and Colts games, but I choose to just stay home and watch because half the time I cannot stand being around fans of my own team. God forbid you want to go to a game that is an away game.

Eddie Gill
02-29-2012, 02:30 PM
I know JO has been a polarizing figure among Pacers fans, but I think everyone can agree that the guy genuinely cared about the city of Indianapolis in a way few athletes do.

duke dynamite
02-29-2012, 02:34 PM
I have to be honest: While there's things I did and still do like about him, upon reflecting back on his entire time with our franchise (remember he had plenty of issues BEFORE that night; fighting with JO, breaking things, unnecessary flagrant fouls, already requesting a trade, etc.) while simultaneously working my way through the article this morning... part of me hates Ron Artest and that he ever wore our jersey. Even if he can't help it, the guy was a freaking menace, and his presence caused more harm that I ever could have possibly imagined. It still haunts me / the team / the community's relationship with the team to this very day.
And the sad part is that we were so blinded with winning, Band-Aids were the only remedy for Ron. They'll just cover it up and hope Ron gets better.

"Let's just not let Monteith get wind of this.."

KrunkMcGrunk
02-29-2012, 02:36 PM
After reading this, I'm convinced that Ron Artest is a 10 year-old child trapped in a man's body.

KrunkMcGrunk
02-29-2012, 02:38 PM
And whoever said they thought Tyler is the only guy on the team that could do something like this now... I just... what? Tyler Hansbrough? Are we thinking of the same guy? Sure, he's scrappy on the court, but he doesn't trash talk, he doesn't lose his cool, and opposing teams clearly don't like him.

Also, have you never heard of Lance Stephenson?

vapacersfan
02-29-2012, 02:40 PM
A couple of thoughts as a [admitetly biased] Pacers fan

- I never realized Tim D. was a ref that evening

- After reading that I dislike Artest even more. I know its wrong, but his mentality and lack of caring just show something was off

- I always blamed Ben Wallace, I actually blame his less

- This article fires me up even more about how @#$%^ the security was and how the arena had 3-4 security guards. That is a joke

- Really, the police are going to wait 10 minutes to do anything, and then choose to pepper spray Pacers? And then they come to arrest Pacers players? Total cluster $%^&

- I still hate Stern........he came down hard on the Pacers, too hard IMO, and that Bird quote was telling.

- Interesting to hear people say something about the announcers being so pro-player. IMO the NBA was far too pro-Detroit, and refused to say anything bad about the arena or [lack of] security

- The refs were useless....would loved a quick ejection of both players

- This article didnt refrence it, but I remember a quote by a Pistons person (maybe a front office PR person) who basically blamed the whole thing on Artest. That comment pissed me off, and still does, but sadly after having years to think about it, no mo-ron type of actions, and Indiana possibly has a championship that year

- Wasnt that the same year as the bomb thread at the Palace for a Indiana - Detroit game? Or am I getting my years mixed up?

- I truly beleived at the time, and agree that the dress code was a result of the brawl

- As much as I hated Stern, and still do, I am shocked at how unprepared the refs were, and how poor the security was that night

LG33
02-29-2012, 02:42 PM
Which, to me, is a reason why the dress code was a good thing. Like any other uniform, if you have to dress differently than you would do every day (or might have while you were growing up), it makes you separate yourself from those everyday (or youthful) emotions. You treat the world differently in a suit than you do in jams and a long T.

I disagree. The worst and most destructive decisions in history were made by people in uniforms or suits. In my opinion, the dress code was not about changing player behavior as much as it was about changing fans' perception of that behavior.

KrunkMcGrunk
02-29-2012, 02:45 PM
I disagree. The worst and most destructive decisions in history were made by people in uniforms or suits. In my opinion, the dress code was not about changing player behavior as much as it was about changing fans' perception of that behavior.

You're absolutely right. The funny thing is, the NBA still has that image of its players being "overpayed thugs", even after enforcing the dress code policy. It'd be interesting to examine why that image persists, because, as far as I can tell, every pro-sports league in America has it's fair share of ******* players.

duke dynamite
02-29-2012, 02:45 PM
I disagree. The worst and most destructive decisions in history were made by people in uniforms or suits. In my opinion, the dress code was not about changing player behavior as much as it was about changing fans' perception of that behavior.
I'll disregard the first part but the bolded part hits the nail on the head.

vapacersfan
02-29-2012, 02:47 PM
Jackson: I actually think [Stern] took it light on us, because he could have easily kicked us out the league. This is my opinion. Taking $3 million was harsh, but I'd rather give that $3 million up and still have my job than keep the $3 million and be kicked out the league.






O'Neal: I never even told my daughter what happened ó she found out at school. One day she came home and figured it out and said, "Dad, are you suspended for fighting?" That was hard for me. It was hard for me to have that conversation with my daughter. It was hard for me to go to the Boys & Girls Club, which I was very close with in Indianapolis, St. Vincent's Hospital, talking to the people at St. Vincent Hospital. It's hard for me as a leader of a community. To have these conversations and see the effect that not just the fight itself had on our team, but the perception that it had on the community. A lot of people don't even know that I won all of my court cases.<SUP id=reffoot29 sizcache016633474300075046="4" sizset="35">29 (http://www.grantland.com/story?id=7612311&page=3#footnote29)</SUP> I got reinstated. Every case ó civil, criminal, and suspension from the league ó I won all of those.




O'Neal: Nobody knows this ó the Pistons security had just told that man to leave the building before that even happened. Nobody knows that that same guy threatened Yao Ming.<SUP id=reffoot21 sizset="40" sizcache07276700561463527="4">21 (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7612311/page/2/an-oral-history-malice-palace#footnote21)</SUP> People don't know that. People don't know some of the bad scenarios of the people who were caught up in that situation. But they know everything about the players. That man had been plotting to start fights against players so he could get paid. That's a fact.

Kid Minneapolis
02-29-2012, 02:51 PM
If anyone has paid attention to me over the years, you probly know that I get very upset when Artest comes up in discussion. I've always felt, from the night it happened, that the actions of that night (and other indicators that led up to that) absolutely crippled our team.

In the immediate aftermath, despite what had happened, Artest STILL had a huge support following, at least on the forums. It was a divided online community. There were so many people who not only supported what he did, but was willing to forget it because he was a "special talent". That baffled me, that a player who's actions (and other incidents) had so crippled our favorite team... was still so supported, and proved to me that people didn't know how to spot a bad sector of an entity even if it stared them in the face --- and that's exactly what Artest was doing to many, many people. This article nails it home for me, further validates my feelings on the subject that Artest was a walking wrecking ball. The Brawl AND the trade request are bonafide proof of that. The Brawl was questionable enough and his blinded teammates still had his back, until he requested that trade and drove that wedge between himself and the guys who "had his back", proving that there's nothing goin on "up there" with that guy. You could sense the betrayal in their comments when they talked about him requesting that trade.

He was by far the worst acquisition this team ever made... we've been suffering the consequences ever since, even if we didn't deserve it. No one deserves that. Our current team, great as it is, is still suffering the consequences. All the proof you need is to look into the stands and see the empty spots. That wouldn't have occurred pre-Brawl. The reality of it is, this team has to win and win and win just to win back a still snake-bitten fanbase.

BillS
02-29-2012, 02:51 PM
I disagree. The worst and most destructive decisions in history were made by people in uniforms or suits. In my opinion, the dress code was not about changing player behavior as much as it was about changing fans' perception of that behavior.

I stand by my opinion - in many of the cases you obliquely refer to, people's everyday WAS the uniforms and suits, and they wear/wore them all day and not as an exception. There are many studies to show that if you dress differently than usual, you act differently than usual.

I agree it had to do with public perception as well, but that is why I said <i>a</i> reason, not <i>the</i> reason.

Pacers13Colts12
02-29-2012, 02:55 PM
A couple of thoughts as a [admitetly biased] Pacers fan


- Interesting to hear people say something about the announcers being so pro-player. IMO the NBA was far too pro-Detroit, and refused to say anything bad about the arena or [lack of] security



It depends on when you watched it. If you watched it that night, John Saunders and Stephen A. Smith were for the Pacers all the way. Called the fans thugs and how they should be banned from the arena and ashamed of themselves

Next day though, Pacers were thugs, out of control, etc. It was amazing how they were able to flip flop 100%. Haven't liked John Saunders (or was it Tirico) since then.

Trader Joe
02-29-2012, 03:04 PM
Forget what you thought of the way he played basketball, is there anyone here who would be opposed to JO getting the ceremonial one day contract so he could retire a Pacer? The man did a great deal for the community and clearly loves the city.

LG33
02-29-2012, 03:05 PM
I stand by my opinion - in many of the cases you obliquely refer to, people's everyday WAS the uniforms and suits, and they wear/wore them all day and not as an exception. There are many studies to show that if you dress differently than usual, you act differently than usual.

I agree it had to do with public perception as well, but that is why I said <i>a</i> reason, not <i>the</i> reason.

That's fair. If you dress differently, you are more likely to act differently - I'll buy that. It makes sense, and I can say from my own experience that I've demonstrated it at times in my own life. Differently isn't always better though. That's the important thing. We should never judge a person by their appearance, but instead by their words and actions. I don't care too strongly about the dress code one way or another, but I do have strong feelings about what was implied by what you said. I would never want to separate myself from my everyday emotions - they are what define me.

dal9
02-29-2012, 03:14 PM
Not to mention he just had a brother of his die a couple of days earlier.

SJax just about was trying to make it two dead brothers of his lol

duke dynamite
02-29-2012, 03:17 PM
Forget what you thought of the way he played basketball, is there anyone here who would be opposed to JO getting the ceremonial one day contract so he could retire a Pacer? The man did a great deal for the community and clearly loves the city.
YES!

Trader Joe
02-29-2012, 03:18 PM
Yes, you would be opposed to it?

Pacers13Colts12
02-29-2012, 03:24 PM
Going back and looking at the video. 2 of the refs are just standing there with their hands on their hips. Geez...if they step in and break it up, never happens.

Pacers13Colts12
02-29-2012, 03:27 PM
This article has really just ruined my day. Went back and watched the video, now I'm just pissed off.

vapacersfan
02-29-2012, 03:27 PM
Forget what you thought of the way he played basketball, is there anyone here who would be opposed to JO getting the ceremonial one day contract so he could retire a Pacer? The man did a great deal for the community and clearly loves the city.

Ill one up that and say we offer him a front office gig (player relations, PR, something like that) or a coaching gig.

Sandman21
02-29-2012, 03:29 PM
It depends on when you watched it. If you watched it that night, John Saunders and Stephen A. Smith were for the Pacers all the way. Called the fans thugs and how they should be banned from the arena and ashamed of themselves

Next day though, Pacers were thugs, out of control, etc. It was amazing how they were able to flip flop 100%. Haven't liked John Saunders (or was it Tirico) since then.

The story was Stern personally put pressure on ESPN over that. Detroit got off RIDICULOUSLY easy, they should have had to play 3 or 4 of their home games in an empty Palace.

Pacers13Colts12
02-29-2012, 03:30 PM
It's amazing, all this time later they now are playing in an empty arena...same for us though :-(

PacersHomer
02-29-2012, 03:32 PM
This didn't make me angrier at Artest. It made me pity him. All of the stories make him come off as someone with a mental illness or personality disorder of some sort, like when he was asking if he would get in trouble and when they said how detached he looked right after the brawl. I honestly don't think he knew what he was doing at the time. He definitely had some problems.

vapacersfan
02-29-2012, 03:33 PM
The story was Stern personally put pressure on ESPN over that. Detroit got off RIDICULOUSLY easy, they should have had to play 3 or 4 of their home games in an empty Palace.

I always doubted that rumor, but I wouldnt be shocked if it was true

This story makes me :cry: thinking about what could have been......and Uncle Reggie

duke dynamite
02-29-2012, 03:34 PM
Yes, you would be opposed to it?
Yes, let's do it.

Nuntius
02-29-2012, 03:43 PM
Going back and looking at the video. 2 of the refs are just standing there with their hands on their hips. Geez...if they step in and break it up, never happens.

And to think that the ref who actually tries to break it up is the littlest one on the floor and cannot even be seen in all of this havoc.

immortality
02-29-2012, 03:44 PM
I don't think I have ever read Reggie Miller's comments on the brawl. Which is probably for the best, as I am sure he still harbors a grudge at what happened. I just kind of wish I knew his reflections on the incident.

Also the part about Reggie Miller almost getting pepper sprayed and saying "Don't this is a x-hundred dollar suit, was hilarious"!

Kid Minneapolis
02-29-2012, 03:45 PM
This didn't make me angrier at Artest. It made me pity him. All of the stories make him come off as someone with a mental illness or personality disorder of some sort, like when he was asking if he would get in trouble and when they said how detached he looked right after the brawl. I honestly don't think he knew what he was doing at the time. He definitely had some problems.

He's like the Gollum of the NBA.

RWB
02-29-2012, 03:48 PM
Ill one up that and say we offer him a front office gig (player relations, PR, something like that) or a coaching gig.

Put my vote down as no. There was a little more to JO and some of his behind the scenes activity to get my blessing for an office job. Retire as a Pacer then ok, any more than that no.

dal9
02-29-2012, 03:52 PM
I think I speak for almost everyone when I say "good article."

My comments on some parts:


Tom Wilson (CEO of the Detroit Pistons and Palace Sports and Entertainment): When he laid on the scorer's table, it took the natural barriers away. There's nothing between you and the crowd. Normally, there's the player's bench. Or you'd have to climb over chairs or climb over the scoring table — it requires that instant that keeps you from doing something crazy or gives people a chance to grab you.

Montieth: In a way, he provoked it passively by lying down on that table. He picked up a set of radio headphones like he was going to talk to people back home. He was clowning around a bit too much. In his mind, he was saying, "Look, I'm not doing anything here. I'm trying to be good." It didn't work out that way.


Bad examples of blaming the victim (for the initial attack on Artest).



Boyle: Instinctively or reflexively, I did step up and Ronnie trampled right over me. I fractured five vertebrae. The thing I laugh about now is my wife says to me, "If you could have stopped Ronnie from going into the stands, none of this would have happened." I say, "Well, Jesus, if I could have stopped Ron from going into the stands, I would be playing in the NFL." My partner, Slick Leonard, was smarter than me — he moved out of the line of fire.


Chris McCosky (Pistons beat writer, Detroit News): I remember trying to stop Jamaal Tinsley from going into the stands, and he went through me like I was butter. It was a pretty failed attempt on my part.

If you are going to get trampled by someone, it gives you more "cred" if it is Artest compared to Tinsley. I didn't realize Boyle was injured so badly--did he have to miss time?



Auburn Hills Police Chief Doreen E. Olko: We have zillions of security plans for the Palace, for all kinds of things. But none included a player going up in the stands. That just is not something anybody foresaw.


"Nobody could have forseen" is a common defense to incompetence. It's not as if something like this is un-forseeable if you have a "zillion" security plans.



Pollard: Some of the fans, they get down on the court and are saying, "I'm going to go punch this guy. I'm going to go punch this guy." Then they get close and they're like, "Wow. I can't reach his face."1


lol



O'Neal: Nobody knows this — the Pistons security had just told that man to leave the building before that even happened. Nobody knows that that same guy threatened Yao Ming.21 People don't know that. People don't know some of the bad scenarios of the people who were caught up in that situation. But they know everything about the players. That man had been plotting to start fights against players so he could get paid. That's a fact.

Yao going into the stands is something I could have told my grandchildren about 50 years from now...



Angel: The only time I felt I was about to get hurt was when a policeman popped his pepper spray container and started shaking it up. Reggie Miller was pleading with him, "Please don't. My suit costs x-hundred dollars."


Reggie: worried about the big picture.



Bryant Jackson (fan who threw a chair at the exiting Pacers): I, Bryant Jackson, have six kids. I try to do what's right … I got caught up in something I wish I hadn't got caught up in.24

Do you want a sticker?



O'Neal: They come in [to Indiana's locker room] and try to arrest us, the players. And all the stuff the people are out there doing, I didn't see anyone being handcuffed and taken out of there. That was a whole other conversation and argument and craziness.

Mike Brown: This fellow says, "You guys got to stay in here. The police are going to arrest two players and a coach." They were talking about me because the guy said I was punching him from behind in the stands. I was going from almost getting my behind kicked by 20,000 people to getting arrested. It's like, "Wow. This is not happening."

Gray: They were trying to arrest Artest. Kevin O'Neill really did an unbelievable job that night. He dealt with the police and they rushed [Artest] out on the bus.



Incredible that the police are trying to make arrests in the locker room. Credit to Kevin O'Neal, who is having a tough year at USC--hope he does not get fired.


EDIT: last quote


Jackson: The person who I have more respect for since then is Ben. We make it a point to shake hands and speak before games now. I respect Ben. Ben was not wrong at all for what he did. Ron did something that only a moron would do. Something real selfish. Ben just protected himself, and for Ben's part, he had a lot going on at the time. That was the wrong person to foul, let alone the biggest dude on the court.


Surprising quote from SJax about Artest, but it is understandable that he was hurt by the trade request, after he (Jax) sacrificed so much for him (Artest)

Hicks
02-29-2012, 03:58 PM
I don't think I have ever read Reggie Miller's comments on the brawl. Which is probably for the best, as I am sure he still harbors a grudge at what happened. I just kind of wish I knew his reflections on the incident.

Also the part about Reggie Miller almost getting pepper sprayed and saying "Don't this is a x-hundred dollar suit, was hilarious"!

I think it's why he retired when he did; he wasn't on his last legs. He could have gone at least one more year.

vapacersfan
02-29-2012, 03:58 PM
I am torn on the first quote. I agree with both about Artest making an inredibly stupid decision, but the bottle line is the fans still did what they did, and were in the wrong.

I beleive the article said Mark did not miss any time. I remember him coming ot PD the next year, that is when he first started posting.

I also would love to hear what Reggie has to say, but I bet we have a better chance of learning his feelings from Mr. Boyle or RobfromPacers, or someone who is closer to the players, and I doubt we will ever hear from Reggie or his PR people.

vapacersfan
02-29-2012, 04:00 PM
I'll disregard the first part but the bolded part hits the nail on the head.

Agree, but I would change fans to fans/sponsors

idioteque
02-29-2012, 04:02 PM
Ron Artest basically destroyed Reggie Miller's last and possibly best chance at an NBA title. For some reason I don't always feel like that's well understood among those who still harbor positive feelings for Ron. He did a very selfish thing that night, screwing not only the fans and our other players, but most importantly doing as much harm to Reggie's chances at a ring as MJ or Ewing or anyone else. And he was on our team!!

duke dynamite
02-29-2012, 04:04 PM
I think looking back from a personal perspective for Jermaine, it's a shame he hasn't won a championship. He was a great player. He always was a leader, and someone who embraced that role on and off the court.

RWB
02-29-2012, 04:05 PM
If you are going to get trampled by someone, it gives you more "cred" if it is Artest compared to Tinsley. I didn't realize Boyle was injured so badly--did he have to miss time?


Mark got banged up pretty bad and the aftermath from the Brawl is one of the reasons Mark started posting on PD. There were several rumors floating around that Mr. Boyle was having problems with Donnie Walsh and the Pacers front office.

Being a stand up guy he came to this site (PD) where the hardcore fans congregate to put the record straight. Poof... rumors and speculation no more. Didn't have to , but I think he appreciates the loyalty this site has shown toward the Pacers.

ksuttonjr76
02-29-2012, 04:08 PM
"Nobody could have forseen" is a common defense to incompetence. It's not as if something like this is un-forseeable if you have a "zillion" security plans.

I disagree.

How about the World Trade Centers? It's possible to create multiple security plans to cover many situations, but then the unthinkable can still happen. That's just life.

The Columbine School Shootings is another example of the unthinkable happening.

vapacersfan
02-29-2012, 04:09 PM
I disagree.

How about the World Trade Centers? It's possible to create multiple security plans to cover many situations, but then the unthinkable can still happen. That's just life.

The Columbine School Shootings is another example of the unthinkable happening.

I think that is a very good point (even with the current school shooting in Ohio, how many schools have emergency plans?) but why was security so small. To me, that was the big problem.

dal9
02-29-2012, 04:12 PM
I disagree.

How about the World Trade Centers? It's possible to create multiple security plans to cover many situations, but then the unthinkable can still happen. That's just life.

The Columbine School Shootings is another example of the unthinkable happening.

Well, sure, there are some things that are genuinely unforeseeable, and you could make a case that Columbine and WTC are examples. But the argument "nobody could have foreseen" is often made in situations where the event should reasonably have been foreseen--I think the Palace fight was one of these.

Sparhawk
02-29-2012, 04:15 PM
I'll have to read it after work, but I quickly posted it to my facebook page.

Naptown_Seth
02-29-2012, 04:18 PM
I haven't had the chance to read it yet.

But I think just about everyone has at some time seen my rants about Jackson's actions, and I just posted them in the most recent "Jack is unhappy" thread.

Rip takes a cheap shot at him by reaching over other players to hit him. Jack's jersey is ripped out and he gets super PO'd at Rip and tries to fight him. People take this as "madman" instead of "hey jerk, I don't like being hit in the face like that".

Later just as Jack reaches a restrained Ron, some jerk launches a full beer in Ron's face. Jack introduces this jerk to instant karma via a punch in the face.

At this point I'm rather satisfied with both reactions. I never understood why NO ONE EVER asked "hey, just what did that jerk think he was doing when he threw that beer in Ron's face".



Also, probably not covered in this article (but maybe, I'll find out) is that on replays you can see Green and those 3 kids with him POUNDING THEIR FISTS and SCREAMING FOR BLOOD when Ben starts going after Ron. They wanted a fight. People around them aren't standing, aren't there, or aren't nearly as animated as those 4 were.

They had all the makings of "I'm really drunk, mad and ready to mix it up".


Detroit had a major security/crowd control issue and not just on that night. That solves the issue. If Ben goes after Ron in Conseco you would never end up with "the Brawl". Never. Even if a guy through a cup at Ben and Ben came into the crowd, you'd be hard pressed to find another guy ready to throw a full beer in his face.

And this lets alone anyone in the crowd willing to rip up a chair to throw at someone. That person has never been a regular attendee of Pacers games.

Mr_Smith
02-29-2012, 04:23 PM
Just an excellent read! I was waiting for an article like this that gives the detailed accounts on what happened and what was said that night. wow

thewholefnshow31
02-29-2012, 04:24 PM
This didn't make me angrier at Artest. It made me pity him. All of the stories make him come off as someone with a mental illness or personality disorder of some sort, like when he was asking if he would get in trouble and when they said how detached he looked right after the brawl. I honestly don't think he knew what he was doing at the time. He definitely had some problems.

This is how I feel about Ron. A lot of posters harbor this angry grudge towards the guy, but all I can feel is pity for the guy. This guy has gone for years with so kind of personality disorder not diagnosed. There just is some kind of chemical imbalance up in that brain. A person who just went through what he went through during that brawl and to turn around ask if they think the will get in trouble is not a sign of someone who has it all together upstairs.

Even today changing his name to Meta World Peace is not a sign of someone who has it all together.

I have to wonder how many people in his life actually care about him and have tried to get him help versus how many people just want to ride his coattail.

Naptown_Seth
02-29-2012, 04:28 PM
Well, sure, there are some things that are genuinely unforeseeable, and you could make a case that Columbine and WTC are examples. But the argument "nobody could have foreseen" is often made in situations where the event should reasonably have been foreseen--I think the Palace fight was one of these.
WTC isn't a good example because people HAD worked that up as a possible attack scenario.

They just didn't have good communication between intelligence divisions. It wasn't the planning, it was the execution where US security ended up failing (ie guys on watch lists able to take flight school lessons on US soil, etc).


If you had a guy that you kicked out and he still wasn't gone, then you definitely did foresee an issue. You failed to execute the plan to deal with that potential issue (ie, you didn't get him out and keep him out).



And that's the problem I normally have with "no one could have foreseen" because nearly every time someone actually did, but the people in charge of taking action or enforcing the adequate responses don't get the job done and then brush it off as "how could I know".



"A drunk might throw something at a player" is not unforeseen. And after Mad Max went into the stands 10 years before Ron did "player goes into the stands and punches fan" came off the "unforeseeable" list too.


*bonus - Space Shuttle Challenger - also pre-identified as potential incident but communication channels were not effective enough at relaying information to/from the appropriate people in time to take proper action.

Lord Helmet
02-29-2012, 04:28 PM
This makes me dislike Ron-Ron even more. The guy threw the franchise into a hell hole that we are now finally climbing out of.

Crazy or not, he screwed us, then he bailed on us. How does he get rewarded? A ring.

Jackson is an idiot, as well. I don't really dislike Jackson, but clearly we'd have been better off without him.

The only Pacer that was heavily involved in the brawl that I still like is JO. He got his chance at stardom here and will forever be grateful for it.

Hell I wouldn't mind having him as a bench player for a year here then retire as a Pacer.

I'm certainly glad that era is over, just sad for Reggie.

Thank you Roy, and the rest for representing the team I love great and not being dbags.

*I used to be one of Metta's supporters, I have 2 of his jerseys in my closet, but the dude sadly just annoys me and pisses me off if anything, anymore. I know deep down he's a good guy, but blegh.

Naptown_Seth
02-29-2012, 04:33 PM
I remember being mad at Stephen Jackson when he was still arguing with Ben Wallace. I kept saying Ron is just lying on the table, just walk away Jackson and it will be all over.
Again if you look this isn't the issue. He's mad at Rip for taking a poke at him in the scrum/huddle.

Naptown_Seth
02-29-2012, 04:38 PM
IAlso the part about Reggie Miller almost getting pepper sprayed and saying "Don't this is a x-hundred dollar suit, was hilarious"!
This is a $8,000 suit. COME ON!
At least that's how I picture Reggie saying it. ;)

Mr_Smith
02-29-2012, 04:45 PM
I couldn't stand Ben Wallace's brother trying to throw cheap shots at Fred Jones. He really needed to get his a** whooped

Mr_Smith
02-29-2012, 04:51 PM
Did Jeff Foster not make the trip on that infamous night?? I'm assuming not.

duke dynamite
02-29-2012, 04:55 PM
Did Jeff Foster not make the trip on that infamous night?? I'm assuming not.
I think he missed the first few weeks of that season, too, right?

duke dynamite
02-29-2012, 05:01 PM
Box Score



INDIANA (97)

fg ft rb
min m-a m-a o-t a pf tp
R Artest 43 7-19 8-9 1-5 2 3 24
A Croshere 38 4-7 5-5 1-6 0 2 15
J O'Neal 36 5-14 10-14 3-13 3 4 20
S Jackson 38 5-12 2-2 0-3 3 4 13
J Tinsley 40 5-10 0-0 1-3 8 2 13
F Jones 17 1-4 0-0 0-2 1 2 3
D Harrison 14 1-1 2-2 3-3 1 4 4
E Gill 9 1-2 3-3 0-2 1 0 5
J Jones 5 0-1 0-0 0-0 0 0 0
S Pollard DNP - SORE LOWER BACK
J Bender DNP - SORE RIGHT KNEE
J Edwards DNP - COACH'S DECISION

__________________________________________________ ___
TOTALS 240 29-70 30-35 9-37 19 21 97
__________________________________________________ ___

Percentages: FG-.414, FT-.857. 3-Point Goals:
9-20, .450 (R Artest 2-5, A Croshere 2-3, S
Jackson 1-3, J Tinsley 3-5, F Jones 1-2, E
Gill 0-1, J Jones 0-1). Team Rebounds: 9.
Blocked Shots:1 (D Harrison). Turnovers:10 (J
Tinsley 4, R Artest 3, E Gill, F Jones, D
Harrison). Steals: 15 (J Tinsley 8, A
Croshere 3, R Artest 2, E Gill, F Jones).


DETROIT (82)

fg ft rb
min m-a m-a o-t a pf tp
T Prince 31 2-8 0-0 2-5 5 4 4
R Wallace 30 8-17 1-2 4-10 1 4 19
B Wallace 39 5-11 3-4 5-10 0 1 13
C Billups 40 3-10 7-7 0-7 5 2 13
R Hamilton 42 6-15 7-7 0-5 2 2 20
E Campbell 7 2-4 2-2 0-1 0 0 6
L Hunter 12 2-2 0-0 0-0 0 3 5
D Ham 11 0-0 0-0 0-1 1 2 0
S Parker 9 1-2 0-0 0-1 1 1 2
A McDyess 19 0-5 0-0 1-2 2 3 0
D Coleman DNP - COACH'S DECISION
D Milicic DNP - COACH'S DECISION

__________________________________________________ ___
TOTALS 240 29-74 20-22 12-42 17 22 82
__________________________________________________ ___

Percentages: FG-.392, FT-.909. 3-Point Goals:
4-16, .250 (T Prince 0-3, R Wallace 2-5, C
Billups 0-5, R Hamilton 1-1, L Hunter 1-1, S
Parker 0-1). Team Rebounds: 5. Blocked
Shots:7 (B Wallace 3, R Wallace 2, E
Campbell, T Prince). Turnovers:15 (R Hamilton
3, T Prince 3, B Wallace 3, R Wallace 2, L
Hunter, S Parker, D Ham, C Billups). Steals:
4 (A McDyess, C Billups, R Hamilton, B
Wallace).

-------------------------------------------
INDIANA 34 25 21 17 - 97
DETROIT 27 16 23 16 - 82
-------------------------------------------

Technical fouls: Indiana - 2 (Defensive
Three, 5:00 1st; J O'Neal, 8:57 3rd). Detroit
- 1 (R Wallace, 3:23 2nd).
Flagrant fouls: None. A: 22,076. T: 2:49.
Officials: Ron Garretson, Tim Donaghy, Tommy
Nunez.

Ratking
02-29-2012, 05:08 PM
This article makes me want to trade for Stephen Jackson even more. I really appreciate his loyalty and intensity. I think having him and O'Neal on our second unit would be magical. It would also be one of the best NBA stories of the year: "O'Neal and Jackson seek redemption in Indiana, pursue championship for city."

Unclebuck
02-29-2012, 05:08 PM
Reading thois and I am only about 1/3 of the way thru brings back so many emotions. Not sure I can ever look at it without emotion. Montieth's quote stick out to me. I think besides Nunez the other two refs should have been fired after the game. I think blaming Ron for getting on the scorers table is really misplaced.


Montieth:
People complain about referees like Joey Crawford and [his] quick whistle. I guarantee if Joey Crawford was working that game, it wouldn't have happened because he would have controlled it. He would have called technicals and gotten people out of there

Jim Gray (sideline reporter, ESPN): The Pistons were the problem. It was the Pistons who initiated this, the Pistons fans and Wallace were the guys who were the aggressors here.ffice:office" /><O:p></O:p>


As far as Ron ruining Reggies last chance at a title, well at that point in Reggie's career he was dependent upon a player like Ron to have a chance at a title. If Ron wasn't on the team to begin with the pacers would have been average.

rock747
02-29-2012, 05:08 PM
Stephen Jackson really likes to throw out Tim Duncan calling him the "ultimate teamate" alot.

Mackey_Rose
02-29-2012, 05:12 PM
It was hard not to be as captivated by this article, as it was by the images we were watching on the screen back in 2004.

gummy
02-29-2012, 05:15 PM
This was a difficult read. I'll never forget sitting there watching the TV with my mouth hanging open, alternating between watching and putting my head in my hands. Where just a few moments before I had been so high because we took it to the defending champions, now I was just as low. I knew our championship run was over before it had even really begun. It was the perfect storm, and the Pacers took the brunt of it.

****.

xtacy
02-29-2012, 05:30 PM
Always ALWAYS will remember how Stern punked the *** out of us

Ben Wallace started it, but got the least suspension of all parties involved

Yeah Ron was in the worng but so was the NBA, I really thought we might go to the finals that year. The we panicked and over reacted the following year and it was downhill until this year

my thoughts exactly.

words can't express how much i hate stern.

Slick Pinkham
02-29-2012, 05:58 PM
Auburn Hills Police Chief Doreen E. Olko: We have zillions of security plans for the Palace, for all kinds of things. But none included a player going up in the stands. That just is not something anybody foresaw


"Nobody could have forseen" is a common defense to incompetence. It's not as if something like this is un-forseeable if you have a "zillion" security plans.

I can buy that they didn't expect to have a player go into the stands. But a large part of this whole mess happened on the floor, with fans on the floor, and fans throwing things at players and coaches. How can that possibly be unforseen? If the cops ever had ten minutes of discussions about crowd control, the subject of drunks throwing stuff, and keeping fans from going onto the court would have come up.

It shows you that Detroit had no security plans with respect to crowd control, among their "zillions" of plans. Fans throwing stuff has happened in the past. It was forseeable. To say that it was not is inexcusable.



This is one article I couldn't stop reading until I had read every word. I think it has now ruined my day though.:(

MagicRat
02-29-2012, 07:08 PM
I was glad they mentioned how the team was hurt by Ron's trade request after they had his back through the ordeal, but what they didn't mention was how for the most part the fans stayed behind Ron and supported him, not to mention Larry and the front office.


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hDohByQc6pE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

RamBo_Lamar
02-29-2012, 07:15 PM
Great article...it's a keeper.

Reading this reminds me, and makes me appreciate that much more the job the Pacers
had to do as an organization to endure and get past this traumatic and devestatingly
costly event.

Slick Pinkham
02-29-2012, 07:31 PM
the fan reaction at 8:55-9:25 of Mac Rat's video... wow.

TheDon
02-29-2012, 08:09 PM
Is there any thread on here that someone can provide a link to that game thread? I don't want to necro it to have it being commented on argued and debated over for the next month or anything, but even if it's just in a PM I'd like to go back and reread that game thread or a thread that kind of encapsulates how everyone was reacting at the time.

cdash
02-29-2012, 09:42 PM
Great piece there by Grantland.

There are a handful of moments in your life where you can remember exactly where you were and exactly what you were doing when they went down. This is one of them for me. I remember exactly where I was sitting, how I was sitting, my reaction, my first phone call, almost coming to blows with my friend who is an obnoxious Pistons fan, how I felt...everything.

Derek2k3
02-29-2012, 10:35 PM
Reading this gave me the same "I could throw up" feeling I had when it happened.


And man, do I remember how furious I was when Artest demanded the trade. I distinctly remember where I was standing when a buddy called and told me Artest wanted out. My first response: "After what he did?!"

And I have always had no respect for the Piston fan base since that. I still maintain that the lions share of the blame lies with the fans/refs/Ben/Ron. Everyone else was so secondary IMO.

Argh. I'm all kinds of ticked off again. Freaking Pisstons. Freaking Ron. Freaking Stern.

On the positive side, it is nice to see how far they've (The Pacers) come as a franchise. But man, this story is still heartbreaking for me.

MagicRat
02-29-2012, 11:01 PM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WSYGmqQ_YL4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Heisenberg
02-29-2012, 11:06 PM
"What does integrity mean?" pretty much sums Ron up for me.

graphic-er
03-01-2012, 01:24 AM
the fan reaction at 8:55-9:25 of Mac Rat's video... wow.

ANd that pretty much sums up what the real reaction to the brawl the fans had. They loved it... There was a real solidarity building with-in the fan base the year of the brawl. The majority of the fans felt the Pacer's had been screwed by the league with the way it all went down. They loved rooting for the 6 player roster the night following. Nobody blamed Artest for what happened, everyone said "well yeah if some drunk threw his beer at me I'd do the same thing". Also lets face it everyone loved being the talk of the NBA, of the sports world. I truly believe that most Pacer fans were ready to rally behind Artest as the ultimate FU to the league. Even with Reggie retired most people expected that 05-06 team to come out the gates with a vengence and contend for the championship. The fans loved and believed in Artest. It wasn't until he asked to be traded did the **** hit the fan. The fans felt just as betrayed as the players felt.

Some body said Artest made a very selfish decision that night. I disagree. That was a young man who was pushed to the edge of his own self. Artest was a very focused player that short season and you could tell he was very aware of his own behavior by the fact that he tried to diminish the situation by walking away, and he basically tried to block out what was happening when he went to the scores table. Sometimes people develop a reputation that precedes them. That reputation sort of layers over whatever they do. So Ron laying on the table was taken as showing up the crowd and Piston's players.
Sometimes people just wont' let you be good.

Hicks
03-01-2012, 01:34 AM
ANd that pretty much sums up what the real reaction to the brawl the fans had. They loved it...

Uh... SOME fans loved it. Others of us most definitely did NOT.

Hicks
03-01-2012, 01:34 AM
As I head off for the night and reflect on that day one last time before bed... you know... it still hurts. :(

SoupIsGood
03-01-2012, 01:46 AM
I love the Brown quotes. He captures the terror of being caught up against a mob very well. In many ways we're lucky there were no truly tragic injuries to come out of that night. Boyle's back sounds like the worst injury, and it sounds like he was able to make a nice recovery there.

SJack's quotes are so great in terms of material. Very lucid and he explains himself very well. Some of the article's best moments came from him. The "will we be in trouble?" moment clinches the piece. I still don't like him much but I appreciate his openness here.

Also this confirms my suspicion that anyone who knew Ron on a day-to-day basis almost had to know he had serious mental issues that he wasn't taking seriously. So many quotes about the vacant look in his eye, the obliviousness to consequences, the super-delicate way people knew they had to handle him in, etc. I mean in one sense you pity the guy. It's a sad case. But you can tell the difference between a person with serious issues who still feels impervious to the destruction he brings on himself and a person who has hit rock bottom and is no longer in denial about their problems. Both types will still screw up, but you can trust the latter in a way you can't the former. That our management was insane enough to hitch so much of our success to someone who was so clearly unstable is just. . . well I don't get it. As fans who didn't know Ron as Ron we wanted to believe he was more reliable than that, but apparently the people who had to have known didn't care that he wasn't. . .

I liked the line about Sheed being cerebral. I loved Sheed's game. Such a perplexing guy. His post defense was an art to watch, and very fluid offensively. That he had the skills for being "the man" yet never wanted to be that was interesting to me.

The security and the refs will always be the biggest bummer about that night for me. Swift ejections and the story of that game doesn't last 48 hours in the news cycle. Given how vile and drunk some NBA fans get a fan-player altercation should have been prepared for. And the detail about the banned fan still being there is just too much. If security doesn't have the balls to keep a banned fan out how are they going to really protect anyone when **** gets serious.

graphic-er
03-01-2012, 01:47 AM
Uh... SOME fans loved it. Others of us most definitely did NOT.

By love. I mean they sort of reveled at the situation. Their Pacer pride shown thru. Are you telling me that you didn't feel cheated by the league? Was your soul not stirred by the team making it to the 2nd round in such a crazy season only to fall to the Piston's in 6 games. Excited for the following year at the idea of the team making a comeback with Artest?

Honestly that was one of the most exciting Pacer seasons ever. We showed the league that we were a really good team regardless of all the suspensions and turmoil. I really wish Reggie did not retire that season and would have given it another go with that team.

TheDon
03-01-2012, 02:12 AM
Reading thois and I am only about 1/3 of the way thru brings back so many emotions. Not sure I can ever look at it without emotion. Montieth's quote stick out to me. I think besides Nunez the other two refs should have been fired after the game. I think blaming Ron for getting on the scorers table is really misplaced.



Jim Gray (sideline reporter, ESPN): The Pistons were the problem. It was the Pistons who initiated this, the Pistons fans and Wallace were the guys who were the aggressors here.ffice:office" /><O:p></O:p>


wow UB I think it's crazy but I was going back through some threads today after reading through the comments here in this particular thread, and reading the article and you posted this in a thread where ESPN brought it up after 5 years and your response to it then was:


I forgot how much time passed between the Ben Wallace push of Artest until the cup hit Artest. That is several minutes of the players just standing around acting tough. My memory shortened that time a great deal. That is when the refs should have taken over, they just stood there - each of those three refs should have been fired - except supposedly that is what the refs were taught to do . Joey Crawford wouldn't have done that, he would have gotten Ben and Ronnie, Stephen and others away and it never would have esculated to the point that it did

Dr. Hibbert
03-01-2012, 02:15 AM
Larry Brown and Ben Wallace are unapologetic asses. I'm sorry. Ron was wrong, but I feel zero sympathy or understanding for Detroit, who continue to act like they have some high horse to sit on there or something. And ESPN, looking for the easy storyline, just let them do that.

EDIT: This thing just pisses me off SO much to this day. Detroit got away with a slap on the wrist. Indiana was wrecked. By Stern's precedent, every stadium should shower opposing players with beer, run on the court and attempt to fight them in order to get them suspended. Screw everything David Stern did in reaction to that night. Detroit should have played in an empty stadium for the rest of that season. I still hate that team, and their fans, to this day, and wish them nothing but the worst going forward. I hope they continue to rely on Ben Gordon 25-foot chucks for eternity.

Nuntius
03-01-2012, 02:32 AM
Is there any thread on here that someone can provide a link to that game thread? I don't want to necro it to have it being commented on argued and debated over for the next month or anything, but even if it's just in a PM I'd like to go back and reread that game thread or a thread that kind of encapsulates how everyone was reacting at the time.

I'm thanking this post because I'd like to know if there is a link as well.

Kstat
03-01-2012, 02:39 AM
Larry Brown and Ben Wallace are unapologetic asses. I'm sorry. Ron was wrong, but I feel zero sympathy or understanding for Detroit, who continue to act like they have some high horse to sit on there or something. And ESPN, looking for the easy storyline, just let them do that.

EDIT: This thing just pisses me off SO much to this day. Detroit got away with a slap on the wrist. Indiana was wrecked. By Stern's precedent, every stadium should shower opposing players with beer, run on the court and attempt to fight them in order to get them suspended. Screw everything David Stern did in reaction to that night. Detroit should have played in an empty stadium for the rest of that season. I still hate that team, and their fans, to this day, and wish them nothing but the worst going forward. I hope they continue to rely on Ben Gordon 25-foot chucks for eternity.

I'd add some fans have a little growing up to do as well, but whatever. That's sports for you.

I will add that Larry Brown showed a great deal of class exhausting his remaining timeouts at the end of game 6 when series was in hand to allow Reggie to get an extended standing ovation, and all of the pistons players applauded as well. Everyone here was very appreciative of that gesture at the time, but nobody mentions that moment anymore.

Dr. Hibbert
03-01-2012, 02:49 AM
I just wonder where/when ESPN got its directive to change the story.

If you watched that live, as I did, the first reaction was to vilify the Detroit fans. During the actual broadcast and immediately postgame, the ESPN guys were talking about the sickening behavior of Detroit fans, how those fans needed to be singled out and punished, how this was just a terrible display by Detroit fans.

Woke up the next morning and it was all Artest's fault. No mention of the fans again. Just Artest. Hell, John Green even managed to become painted as a victim. It's like someone came in to ESPN at 3am that night and said "no, this is the story we're going with, start saying this and pretend like you never said anything immediately after it happened".

That's one of my biggest issues with this, the way the media just did a complete 180, and in the interest of simplicity, put EVERYTHING on Artest.

But, yes, I guess Indiana was asking for some sort of catastrophe by continuing to keep Artest on a loose leash.

Dr. Hibbert
03-01-2012, 02:50 AM
I'd add some fans have a little growing up to do as well, but whatever. That's sports for you.

I will add that Larry Brown showed a great deal of class exhausting his remaining timeouts at the end of game 6 when series was in hand to allow Reggie to get an extended standing ovation, and all of the pistons players applauded as well. Everyone here was very appreciative of that gesture at the time, but nobody mentions that moment anymore.

Yes, I hope your team fails for the rest of eternity. It's the one thing I'm still bitter about in sports, and always will be. Detroit got away with murder. Sue me.

Trader Joe
03-01-2012, 02:51 AM
Yes, we're appreciative of the extra timeouts called by Larry Brown.

If you think that makes up for the actions of your fans, Palace Security, Ben Wallace, etc. the night of the brawl, you're nuts.

Kstat
03-01-2012, 02:55 AM
Yes, we're appreciative of the extra timeouts called by Larry Brown.

If you think that makes up for the actions of your fans, Palace Security, Ben Wallace, etc. the night of the brawl, you're nuts.

Obviously not. I was throwing it out there because I don't think anybody even remembers that moment anymore.

I haven't cared to discuss this topic since 2005, but do not refer to them as "my" fans. I did not know anybody at the game that night. I had nothing to do with any of this. I was not there. Short of that, have at it.

I'm not trying to apologize for anybody. I have nothing to apologize for.

Nuntius
03-01-2012, 02:59 AM
This article makes me want to trade for Stephen Jackson even more. I really appreciate his loyalty and intensity. I think having him and O'Neal on our second unit would be magical. It would also be one of the best NBA stories of the year: "O'Neal and Jackson seek redemption in Indiana, pursue championship for city."

His comments on this thread made me appreciate more as a person as well. I still don't like him a lot as a player, though.

Edit: Let's not gang up on Kstat now, guys. What those Pistons fan did back then was disgusting, I agree. But just because he shares the same team loyalty with them, does not mean that he shares the same behavior.

Nuntius
03-01-2012, 03:09 AM
By the way, this article made me appreciate Obie a bit more. It's true that he was a bad coach. It's true that his system never really worked. It's true that we sucked during his tenure. But at least he kept the team in the clean.

And this paved the way to a hopefully great Vogel era :D

TheDon
03-01-2012, 03:12 AM
This is an "odd thoughts" by peck immediately following the brawl how the hell he managed to write this and articulate so much and so unbiasly blows my mind. It is very sad to read that and listen to what everyone thought the league was only going to suspend Ron maybe 10 - 15 games. Also, I think everyone was pretty mild mannered in responding to this the night of. Could you guys imagine how big a thread like this would have been if something like that happened now?

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=7173

and this is the reaction after stern speaks and dishes out the rulings and suspensions

this is one about stern addressing it initially

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=7194

and this is after the suspensions became definite

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=7297

there were multiple threads that were just one thread started with lots of angry fans that didn't have many responses maybe 1 or 2 that didn't need posting.

*****NOTE please do not comment and thus bump any of those old threads I went and found them just for peoples curiousity to read so please do not bump them just read them ******

Nuntius
03-01-2012, 03:18 AM
Thanks a billion, mate.

Bball
03-01-2012, 03:51 AM
Uh... SOME fans loved it. Others of us most definitely did NOT.

I assume Graphic more means AFTER the brawl.... once the suspensions were handed down. People rallied around the team. Many people (in Pacerland) felt the Pacers were over-punished (while Detroit was under-punished) and so they wanted to see the team show the NBA they could still play some basketball regardless of what the NBA did to them. They also wanted to rally around Reggie in his final season. There was also an undercurrent that Ron might get a chance to come back for the playoffs or a little before and just maybe the team could fully regain it's contender status.

And the next season many expected the team to be on a tear and was ready to rally around them again to 'show the NBA we're still relevant'... But then came Ron's trade demand... Jackson's attitude he wore on his sleeve... off court incidents... sinupoutinitis.... JO's all talk and no walk.... continued revisits to the brawl with realizations that Artest and Jackson weren't angels and JO wasn't exactly Tim Duncan on any number of levels either. And then not to be forgotten- the absolute horrendous egg they laid against Phoenix on Reggie's jersey raising ceremony night. That might've been the icing on the cake to turn a LOT of people off there on out. And then the false start advertising campaigns just made the team a laughing stock even nationally.

xtacy
03-01-2012, 03:59 AM
Ben Wallace: It's hard to say, "I wouldn't do this again," or, "I wouldn't do that," because in a similar situation, you don't know how you'll react. It was a unique situation with so many things that happened so fast.

just when i thought i couldn't hate this :censored: guy more.

dal9
03-01-2012, 04:03 AM
Larry Brown and Ben Wallace are unapologetic asses. I'm sorry. Ron was wrong, but I feel zero sympathy or understanding for Detroit, who continue to act like they have some high horse to sit on there or something. And ESPN, looking for the easy storyline, just let them do that.

EDIT: This thing just pisses me off SO much to this day. Detroit got away with a slap on the wrist. Indiana was wrecked. By Stern's precedent, every stadium should shower opposing players with beer, run on the court and attempt to fight them in order to get them suspended. Screw everything David Stern did in reaction to that night. Detroit should have played in an empty stadium for the rest of that season. I still hate that team, and their fans, to this day, and wish them nothing but the worst going forward. I hope they continue to rely on Ben Gordon 25-foot chucks for eternity.
u mad bro?
cause not gonna lie, i'm still mad bro...

Foul on Smits
03-01-2012, 04:11 AM
Stephen Jackson sounds stupid in this article. I didn't know only felons sit in nosebleed seats. I sat in a row with an old couple in there 80's a few nights ago. Regular Bonnie and Clydes, those two were....

Foul on Smits
03-01-2012, 04:12 AM
Pretty stunned that Artest asked if anyone thought they would get in trouble. Tinsley's line after that is pretty classic. Lol

Peck
03-01-2012, 04:42 AM
Obviously I have a lot of opinions on this article. I first want to compliment the writer, that was a very impressive piece of work.

I've been over the brawl so many times that it has lost almost any meaning to me. Frankly I like this team way better now than I ever did that team so while I hated the losing and hated the way it destroyed the Indiana fan base at the end of the day we came out stronger.

But instead of just reflecting on the negative aspects of the brawl I will instead point us to the one joyfull thing that it did bring about.

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=9851&highlight=ring+bell+suckers

Nuntius
03-01-2012, 05:15 AM
So, I just went over the links that TheDon posted.

And wow. Some of this was just jaw-dropping now knowing how things turned out for every party involved.

I have a whole new level of respect for the guys that were there during that incident. Having to endure the Brawl and then seeing Ron bailing on everyone like this must feel like ****. And afterwards just like this punishment wasn't enough, having to endure the Obie years is just the icing of the cake.

Yet you did not give up. You continued to support the team and some of you even continued to believe.

I really consider myself lucky that I was not following the NBA regularly 'till this season.

Oh and Peck. Are there any videos that show Croshere in the middle of the court? I always respected Austin and this reaction is probably priceless.

clownskull
03-01-2012, 05:18 AM
haven't read all the responses but, i believe that although that squad had all the talent necessary to win a championship (or more) they probably never would have won it all with that roster.
too many critical players on the squad with personal agendas that trumped team goals.
we had guys like j.o. dunking and posing and often spending more time complaining to the refs after a missed shot than getting back on D- jackson was horrible with the whining on that issue as well.
tinsley and artest were some of the more selfish players i have ever seen. both were exceptionally talented yet you never knew which one was going to show up. the focused and greatly beneficial jamal or the one who was going to turn the game into his personal showdown with the other team's pg. tins gets lit up on a play and decides he's got to get him back etc. then the bogus illnesses etc because he wasn't happy about something. the phoenix game was a fitting end to him as he showed his true self.
artest could be a great asset but despite all the drama and grief he dished out to the organization, he pays them back as well as the fans and community by demanding a trade. some people here actually like ron. that is fine if they do- i have heard he is actually a nice guy and stuff- that also may be true. however, i remember him mentioning not long ago about how bad he feels for what he did to the franchise and fans- that he felt like a coward for the way he handled it. and i say as well he should. he single-handedly hurt the franchise more than any other play that i can recall.
he can go suck it for all i care.

TMJ31
03-01-2012, 05:44 AM
Wow, what a great article... In the sense that it was a really solid piece of journalism and it elicited the intended response from me, the reader... Nausea and severe depression.

I'll NEVER forget that night. What a terrible way that was for Reggie and that amazing team to go down with such a bright future in store that year.

I am so happy that we're finally crawling and scratching our way out of the hole the brawl stuck us in. It makes me even more proud to be a Pacers fan, knowing we weathered that storm.

Reading the closing comments from JO in the article truly brought a tear to my eye. I know he is a polarizing figure on these boards, but I've always loved JO and truly miss having him here. He obviously bleeds Blue and Gold, and it's just a damn shame the way things ended up.

And seriously... Screw Ron Artest. Ugh...
I try to be a forgiving person, but I just can't wrap my head around this one...

Anyways, enough of all this!

:gopacers: 10 games over .500 and with a bright future and an amazing core group!!!

Heisenberg
03-01-2012, 07:48 AM
Wonder why the guy didn't talk to Foster, him being the only remaining on-roster link to the two eras and all. Maybe he tried and Jeff turned him down, I wouldn't blame him. Would have been interesting to hear some candid thoughts from him on it though.

DGPR
03-01-2012, 09:54 AM
The thing to remember about that night, if the brawl doesn't happen, then we don't end up with the 17th pick in the 2005 draft.

Unclebuck
03-01-2012, 09:54 AM
I will say the sight of Jamaal Tinsley waving that dustpan around as if he will fight everyone in the arena with that thing, was without a doubt one of the funniest things I have ever seen in my life. To this day I still laugh whenever I see that or just when I think about it

Bball
03-01-2012, 09:55 AM
I barely opened this thread because for the most part I'd like to leave the brawl in the past. Then I had no intention of following the link to the piece in question until I saw the comments about it.

That is one very well done piece. Besides, the quotes the author also elected to do some sidebars so as to correct misinformation that might've crept into some people's quotes.


O'Neal: I never even told my daughter what happened — she found out at school. One day she came home and figured it out and said, "Dad, are you suspended for fighting?" That was hard for me. It was hard for me to have that conversation with my daughter. It was hard for me to go to the Boys & Girls Club, which I was very close with in Indianapolis, St. Vincent's Hospital, talking to the people at St. Vincent Hospital. It's hard for me as a leader of a community. To have these conversations and see the effect that not just the fight itself had on our team, but the perception that it had on the community. A lot of people don't even know that I won all of my court cases. (29) I got reinstated. Every case — civil, criminal, and suspension from the league — I won all of those.

I was prepared to believe that but thought that sounded a little off.... then I noted the sidebar:



(29) O'Neal, like all the players faced with criminal charges, pleaded no contest and was sentenced to probation and community service. In no-contest pleas, the defendant does not admit to or dispute a charge, and usually receives some form of punishment.

Also noted in a sidebar:

Here's how they caught Green, according to Gorcyca: "John had a criminal history prior to all of this, and eventually he was banned from the Palace — and I think he was previously banned from either Comerica Park or Ford Field, too. Prior to the incident, John was living with his girlfriend right next door [to me]. I think he lived there for a couple of years. It was several years prior to the incident at the Palace. The tape kept playing and playing and playing, and there wasn't a clear shot of his face until I saw another video at work. I think it might have been in an internal Palace video where his hat fell off. We were trying to locate the guy because we didn't know who it was started the whole incident by throwing what we perceived to be beer. And his hat came off in one internal security video and I said, 'Oh my God, I know that guy. That's John Green. He's my old neighbor.' So I kind of ID'd the perpetrator, if you will, as sitting prosecutor, and then we sent the detectives out to go interview him, and the rest is history."

Dr. Hibbert
03-01-2012, 10:05 AM
I will say the sight of Jamaal Tinsley waving that dustpan around as if he will fight everyone in the arena with that thing, was without a doubt one of the funniest things I have ever seen in my life. To this day I still laugh whenever I see that or just when I think about it

Agreed. One of my most vivid memories of the night, and for all the horrible things, still the one odd, inexplicable LOL moment.

SoupIsGood
03-01-2012, 10:05 AM
Obviously not. I was throwing it out there because I don't think anybody even remembers that moment anymore.

I haven't cared to discuss this topic since 2005, but do not refer to them as "my" fans. I did not know anybody at the game that night. I had nothing to do with any of this. I was not there. Short of that, have at it.

I'm not trying to apologize for anybody. I have nothing to apologize for.

fwiw I think any drunk enough large mass of fans has the potential to act like that. I've seen plenty of Colts and Pacers fans ready and willing to get violent. I've seen a Colts fan threaten to kill a Pats fan who was doing nothing but watching the game with his son. Seth claims that such a thing would never happen here, and unless he knows od specific policies in security or alcohol distribution that would have curbed it, sorry but that's sentimental crap. Recall the story from one of the interviews about the normal-looking lady who chucked the water-bottle. The mob mentality can turn even the most decent enough people to viciousness.

duke dynamite
03-01-2012, 10:06 AM
Uh... SOME fans loved it. Others of us most definitely did NOT.
I'll say it. I was embarassed. Those guys had our state's name on the front of their jerseys. It kills me going back to that night. Regardless of personal agendas, venegance, etc., this was a very dark time for Indiana when it came to sports.

It was all over TV, on the front page of SI, ESPN, etc. I hate that whenever anyone references to the worst fracas in all of sports history, Indiana is on the shirt of one of the teams involved.

duke dynamite
03-01-2012, 10:07 AM
The thing to remember about that night, if the brawl doesn't happen, then we don't end up with the 17th pick in the 2005 draft.
BUT...

Danny was a projected Lottery Pick. You never know.

vapacersfan
03-01-2012, 10:08 AM
Could you imagine the uproar if players or Mike Brown had been arrested that night?

Thank you for those links. I didnt know Peck odd the OTT back then, but it was fascinating to see how little we thoughts the punishments would be.

I remember the Brown timeout. Still dont gave a $%^%&. TJ said it better then I could, so I will leave it at that.

Wonder why they did not reach out to Foster.



The following declined multiple interview requests for this article: former Pacer players Metta World Peace, Reggie Miller, Jamaal Tinsley, Austin Croshere, and Anthony Johnson; former ESPN analyst Bill Walton; and Chad Forcier. An interview request for Rasheed Wallace, made through his agent, was not answered. Richard Hamilton (now a Chicago Bull), through a team spokesman, declined to be interviewed. The NBA refused interview requests for Ron Garretson and Tommy Nunez Jr., the two other officials who worked the game and are still employed by the league.


Dustpan was the only semi "funny" thing about that night.

What a good read. Was really telling of the crowd mentality that night, the quote about the girl in a suit or dressed up, who threw a bottle of water at the players

vapacersfan
03-01-2012, 10:10 AM
I'll say it. I was embarassed. Those guys had our state's name on the front of their jerseys. It kills me going back to that night. Regardless of personal agendas, venegance, etc., this was a very dark time for Indiana when it came to sports.

It was all over TV, on the front page of SI, ESPN, etc. I hate that whenever anyone references to the worst fracas in all of sports history, Indiana is on the shirt of one of the teams involved.

I was at a JUCO in Virginia.

The next day all people wanted to talk about was "that fight in the NBA between the Pacers and the fans"

Hell, half of my friends who were casual NBA fans, or just general sports fans, DID NOT EVEN KNOW IT HAPPENED IN DETROIT, not did they care. It was all bad publicity for Indiana, and that is what irks me about Stern not coming down harder on the Palace or the fans.

Heisenberg
03-01-2012, 10:11 AM
The thing to remember about that night, if the brawl doesn't happen, then we don't end up with the 17th pick in the 2005 draft.
I like Danny a lot, but I'd gladly trade him for a ring.

vapacersfan
03-01-2012, 10:15 AM
I like Danny a lot, but I'd gladly trade him for a ring.

I agree, but I want to make one thing clear.

I DO NOT think we win a championship that year. I was one of the few (I think Hicks and maybe Bball was the other, possibly Alabama-Redneck) who ademently agreed with Jay@section222, that the team was bound to have a giant blow it sooner or later.

It just happened to happen earlier then many expected.

Or, if you ask Jay, a lot later then some expected.

Unclebuck
03-01-2012, 10:17 AM
Great article, I've read it twice now. Overall I think it is worth reading. In this is and IMo will be the article that will endure about the whole incident.

I will always remember where I was and the feeling I felt when I saw Ron run up into the stands. The sinking feeling I felt seeing Ron run up into the stands I would compare it to the other two or three times in my entire life when I received terrible news that changed my life.

Thinking about it all now, I don't think I'm the same type of fan of the Pacers as I was before the brawl.

I probably would not admit this to my family, but everything involved with the brawl and the aftermath and the effect on the Pacers had as big of an impact on me as any family event that has taken place in the same period of time and there has been two huge family events in my life. Just like family tragedies the brawl is somehting that I will never fully get over, never fully recover from , and never ever will forget.

holick
03-01-2012, 10:22 AM
What a great read!

I covered the brawl in Chinese for ChinaPacers.com that day. I remember I watched every online video with all angles, and read through all posts in Pacersdigest, and all reports from ESPN and Indystar, then spent four hours writing down every details in Chinese from the information I had, so to let more Chinese fans to know the truth.

Still, it only covered 60% of the facts that had happened. 40% of the content in this "oral history of the malice in the palace" article is totally new to me, the players/coach quotes and the locker-room talk.

Actually I wrote a serious of reports to follow-up the brawl, even the investigation and lawsuits afterward. But there are always something we don't know.

http://www.chinapacers.com/fight.htm

Now, with this article, i could complete the whole stories. The case is closed, finally.

Dr. Hibbert
03-01-2012, 10:27 AM
What a fantastic read. I still remember where I was on that night. I was sitting with some friends at home and none of us could believe what we were witnessing.

What I could not believe was how one sided the coverage was the next day. There was barely anyone ripping how the fans reacted. All the blame was put on the Pacers and how we were the villains. How that POS not thrown the beer none of this would have happened.

To me fans have got worse in every sport. The media could have covered how fans are feeling way to entitled once they buy the tickets. I have the disposable income to go to Pacers and Colts games, but I choose to just stay home and watch because half the time I cannot stand being around fans of my own team. God forbid you want to go to a game that is an away game.

Hell, John Green became the VICTIM the next day. Unbelievable.

Hicks
03-01-2012, 10:30 AM
This is begging to be a documentary, right? 30 for 30?

Also, I was just thinking about the next forum party we had after the brawl. That was amazing going over it with a group like that. Did we even talk about anything else?

Unclebuck
03-01-2012, 10:36 AM
This is begging to be a documentary, right? 30 for 30?

Also, I was just thinking about the next forum party we had after the brawl. That was amazing going over it with a group like that. Did we even talk about anything else?


I forget the exact timeline. Wasn't the forum party about a week or two after the brawl? Honestly, I do not have a vivid memory of the forum party right after the brawl, I think the brawl was too fresh in my mind at that time to fully comprehend what had just happened.

BillS
03-01-2012, 10:47 AM
By love. I mean they sort of reveled at the situation. Their Pacer pride shown thru. Are you telling me that you didn't feel cheated by the league? Was your soul not stirred by the team making it to the 2nd round in such a crazy season only to fall to the Piston's in 6 games. Excited for the following year at the idea of the team making a comeback with Artest?

Don't confuse loving how the team reacted to adversity with loving the Brawl. Fans would have had the same reaction to anything that took out the top players and the bench guys were forced to comeback hard.

Yes, I agree that there was heat for the screw job people felt Stern did on the team. Again, that wasn't "love" for the Brawl or even condoning it - it was a feeling that the punishment was excessive, not undeserved.


I will add that Larry Brown showed a great deal of class exhausting his remaining timeouts at the end of game 6 when series was in hand to allow Reggie to get an extended standing ovation, and all of the pistons players applauded as well. Everyone here was very appreciative of that gesture at the time, but nobody mentions that moment anymore.

That's a bit unfair. They don't mention it when talking about the Brawl. They mention it when talking about Reggie's last game. Context is important.


This is begging to be a documentary, right? 30 for 30?

Please, not for at least a full generation of fans. I understand the depth of the subject, but the last thing we need is a national film reminding people of that day while we are still teetering on the brink of respectability in many minds.

Unclebuck
03-01-2012, 10:51 AM
The story was Stern personally put pressure on ESPN over that..


I thought it was confirmed by either the NBA or ESPN, that yes Stern and or his office made it clear that what they said Friday night right after the brawl was not going to be tolerated. Maybe my memory is off

vapacersfan
03-01-2012, 10:57 AM
Some interesting old quotes:


What Stern did tonight was related to player conduct only.

There will be action taken against the Pistons organization in some way.

Also, some of you need to remember, like Peck mentioned, O'Neal & Jackson will be back before the start of the playoffs.

All we need to do is slide in at 7 or 8. Last season Boston was an 8 seed with a 36-46 record. If anyone doubts we will be under .500 by the end of the year I sure like to hear from them.

We have lots of talent on this team & now is the time they will get to show it. Even Bender will get a shot after the first of the year.

Finally, & this is by far the most important. This group will come together like no other team in Pacer history. They will be so focused by mid April they could sweep thru the playoffs.

You think we had "One Goal" before, you ain't seen nothin' yet!

MagicRat
03-01-2012, 11:00 AM
I have a whole new level of respect for the guys that were there during that incident. Having to endure the Brawl and then seeing Ron bailing on everyone like this must feel like ****. And afterwards just like this punishment wasn't enough, having to endure the Obie years is just the icing of the cake.

Yet you did not give up. You continued to support the team and some of you even continued to believe.

Being the 2007 Sunshiner of the Year was hard work.......

Unclebuck
03-01-2012, 11:08 AM
I'll say it. I was embarassed. Those guys had our state's name on the front of their jerseys. It kills me going back to that night. Regardless of personal agendas, venegance, etc., this was a very dark time for Indiana when it came to sports.

It was all over TV, on the front page of SI, ESPN, etc. I hate that whenever anyone references to the worst fracas in all of sports history, Indiana is on the shirt of one of the teams involved.


It didn't bother me so much it being on the local news or even ESPN and all the sports shows and sports cable channels, but when it was on ABC, CNN, NBC, CBS news and national news shows that was when it hit me and really bothered me.

Dr. Hibbert
03-01-2012, 11:13 AM
I thought it was confirmed by either the NBA or ESPN, that yes Stern and or his office made it clear that what they said Friday night right after the brawl was not going to be tolerated. Maybe my memory is off

I didn't know this until now. Honestly, this is the part of the story that interests me most. Would be fascinated to hear exactly what that directive was, and why ESPN chose to accept it so easily (well, that might be obvious with broadcast rights/revenue, but for NO ONE to fight it?!)

vapacersfan
03-01-2012, 11:15 AM
I would have to see a quote before I beleive that.

As for why no one would fight it


ESPN has NBA licensing
Employees like collecting a paycheck

Naptown_Seth
03-01-2012, 11:18 AM
Boy, the more you read the more PO'd you get. Here's two more you guys might have discussed already...


David Wallace (Ben Wallace's brother): I just got caught up in the heat of the moment. When you don't have time to think about something, there's not always a thought process involved.<sup id="reffoot15">15</sup>

Listen jerk, you got up out of your seat TWO SECTIONS AWAY, BEFORE THE CUP WAS THROWN and began to make your way over to the Pacers bench area so you could punch Ron Artest.

That's not "heat of the moment". You pushed through the crowd for 10 seconds, had time to think about it, and then kept making your way forward. Then 20 seconds more and you are still thinking "this is a good idea".

You punched FRED JONES FROM BEHIND when Ron went into the stands. Not Ron, not even Jack. You went looking to punch ANYONE, way before things were really out of hand, and YOU WERE PART OF WHAT MADE IT REALLY BAD.

This is the dude's view of it on RETROSPECT. Jackson is all over the place saying "I was mad but..." or "I wanted to protect Ron but...".

But Wallace just gives us a "hey, I couldn't help myself" when he had the least justification for his actions.


And then of course the biggest d-bag in the world, the guy that literally pulled an intentional "OLE" to avoid Ron, rather than manning up and saying "whoa, I did it, calm down, it was a mistake"....

John Green (the fan who lobbed a drink at Artest): I never intended to hit anyone. The day I threw the cup I forgot about the laws of physics. I hope that no one ever throws anything at The Palace again.<sup id="reffoot11">11</sup>

Forgot about gravity?? Doubtful. What does that even mean, you made the cup leave your hand in the direction of Ron because you thought what, that it would float up to the roof like a Willie Wonka room?

No, you didn't forget physics, you were COUNTING ON THEM.

And this "one in a million" view that people take is BS too. Let's say he misses Ron. So what, how is that better. Let's say Boyle gets hit with that beer. You don't think this inspires other drunks (guys that admittedly were looking to fight a player) to throw stuff.

Let's do a check. What did hundreds of other fans do after the brawl got going? They threw stuff. A guy blasted Ron with a beer in the face when he ran up to grab the wrong guy.

So Green missing Ron doesn't fix it. Maybe the beer hits Boyle and it's still p****s Ron off because maybe he likes Boyle. Or maybe Slick gets hit. How is this in any way better?


That's the issue, the issue is that David Wallace thought it was reasonable to leave his seat and make his way to the Pacers bench to fight and Green thought it was acceptable to throw anything at anyone in that moment.

This was the crowd mentality at that point, BEFORE RON LEFT THE COURT. It was a drunken, violent mob, period. The evidence is there to see before any player does anything wrong. And a hard retaliation foul does not warrant a drunken mob reaction.



Even if Ron never left the bench, fans were going to shower them with crap when they walked out the tunnel. That is obvious as **** to me.

Dr. Hibbert
03-01-2012, 11:21 AM
I would have to see a quote before I beleive that.

As for why no one would fight it


ESPN has NBA licensing
Employees like collecting a paycheck


I don't need to see a quote. I saw the broadcast during and immediately after the brawl, then I saw SportsCenter the next morning. Night and day. It was clear something had changed, along the lines of a Rupert Murdoch-esque mandate.

graphic-er
03-01-2012, 11:30 AM
Don't confuse loving how the team reacted to adversity with loving the Brawl.


I clearly am not. It has been stated in 2 posts. The fans reaction to the brawl was love for their Pacers. They circled the wagons.

Naptown_Seth
03-01-2012, 11:32 AM
Uh... SOME fans loved it. Others of us most definitely did NOT.
I agree, but I think Graphic-er is on to something. Let's say Ron comes back, busts his butt and shows us his apologies on the court with great play and support for his teammates. Let's say JO respects Carlisle and doesn't go off in the locker room about his touches.

Let's just say that Tins, Ron, JO and Jackson show true contrition and respect for the team and fans over the next 3-4 years.

Well that team would have been LOVED by fans. It would have been seen as fighting the adversity of a crap hostile arena and a crap commissioner.


Now looking back we blend their post-brawl actions in with the initial reaction that season. We judge them not for the brawl but for trade demands, touches demands, coaching complaints, Rio, 8 Seconds, Cloud Nine, Shawne Williams, and whatever it was Tinsley was doing on the court at that point.

That's fair, but it's not the same emotions as we had when Ron returned at FanJam. At that moment we were about to begin the "payback" tour on the league, and that's how they should have handled it. Those guys had it in their hands to do something really special, and that's when they blew it.

When the heat of the moment left and they had time to think about choices the began making a series of disastrous ones.

duke dynamite
03-01-2012, 11:34 AM
It didn't bother me so much it being on the local news or even ESPN and all the sports shows and sports cable channels, but when it was on ABC, CNN, NBC, CBS news and national news shows that was when it hit me and really bothered me.
I figured everyone would get the point without me being too long-winded.

vapacersfan
03-01-2012, 11:41 AM
I don't need to see a quote. I saw the broadcast during and immediately after the brawl, then I saw SportsCenter the next morning. Night and day. It was clear something had changed, along the lines of a Rupert Murdoch-esque mandate.

Yeah, I saw the same thing....live

Sorry, I just dont buy Stern told them something, unless it is more then a "rumor" floating around the net.

I always thought ESPN might have had the higher ups say something....and maybe that came from Stern. Or maybe it didnt....

obnoxiousmodesty
03-01-2012, 12:09 PM
Is there any thread on here that someone can provide a link to that game thread? I don't want to necro it to have it being commented on argued and debated over for the next month or anything, but even if it's just in a PM I'd like to go back and reread that game thread or a thread that kind of encapsulates how everyone was reacting at the time.

If I recall correctly, at that time PD was utilizing a chat program for game discussions. So there is not a game thread for that night. As an archivist, I am annoyed. On a personal level, it's good I don't know what I said as it was happening.

I just remember how shocked we were, how quickly the chat quieted, and then we all started talking at once. It was a mortifying experience. It felt like I was somehow there with the team, even though I was on my computer talking in a chat room at home.

This was an excellent piece of journalism. I don't think about that night often, but when I do, I still feel sick to my stomach.

Hicks
03-01-2012, 12:11 PM
If I recall correctly, at that time PD was utilizing a chat program for game discussions. So there is not a game thread for that night. As an archivist, I am annoyed. On a personal level, it's good I don't know what I said as it was happening.

I just remember how shocked we were, how quickly the chat quieted, and then we all started talking at once. It was a mortifying experience. It felt like I was somehow there with the team, even though I was on my computer talking in a chat room at home.

This was an excellent piece of journalism. I don't think about that night often, but when I do, I still feel sick to my stomach.

I can't believe something got you to come back and post! :-o

fwpacerfan
03-01-2012, 12:26 PM
I am amazed at how little remorse the people on the Detroit side have - even to this day. Larry Brown and Tom Wilson are the worst. They basically blame the Pacers for the whole thing. Ron was absolutely wrong in this, as was Jackson, but there were things that Brown and Wilson's employees could've and should've done to stop this from escalating as much as it did. They appear to have no inclination to admit any wrongdoing and that is sad.

Kudos to JO - his statement made me tear up a little. He's a class guy. It'd be cool if he could come back here as a backup and finish his career as a Pacer (at a cap friendly number of course).

Dr. Hibbert
03-01-2012, 12:39 PM
I am amazed at how little remorse the people on the Detroit side have - even to this day. Larry Brown and Tom Wilson are the worst. They basically blame the Pacers for the whole thing. Ron was absolutely wrong in this, as was Jackson, but there were things that Brown and Wilson's employees could've and should've done to stop this from escalating as much as it did. They appear to have no inclination to admit any wrongdoing and that is sad.

Kudos to JO - his statement made me tear up a little. He's a class guy. It'd be cool if he could come back here as a backup and finish his career as a Pacer (at a cap friendly number of course).

Easy to have no remorse when it basically didn't even affect you.

As for JO, I've always felt he got a bum wrap from fans here. I understand why fans were frustrated, but the amount of anger/bitterness have been disproportionate. I think he got lumped unfairly in the SJax/Tinsley/Artest group, when his issues weren't along the same mode of rocking the boat. I've never doubted JO's commitment to the city/community.

He was just a classic case of getting too much for too little in return (due to health/availability, obviously). A lot of parallels to Bob Sanders there, except NBA has guaranteed contracts and Sanders didn't complain about the rare time he spent on the (field).

LG33
03-01-2012, 12:40 PM
I can't believe something got you to come back and post! :-o

Talk about a Post More Often Award candidate...Come back!

Sandman21
03-01-2012, 12:44 PM
Something that got missed: The cup that sparked the fracas was NOT the first cup chucked at Ron. If the Fox Sports Midwest feed is still on Youtube, you can see a cup clearly chucked at Ron probably 30 seconds to a minute before all heck broke loose. In fact, if I remember right, Al Albert and Quinn comment about that.

BillS
03-01-2012, 01:10 PM
As for JO, I've always felt he got a bum wrap from fans here.

I usually try to ignore malapropisms based on homophones, but this one is too much. It's like Pacer fans kidnapped JO and hauled him to a spa for a new-age therapy on his lower torso.

It's a bum RAP.

Dr. Hibbert
03-01-2012, 01:22 PM
I usually try to ignore malapropisms based on homophones, but this one is too much. It's like Pacer fans kidnapped JO and hauled him to a spa for a new-age therapy on his lower torso.

It's a bum RAP.

For all intensive purposes, you only caught this because of your extra-century perception.

Peck
03-01-2012, 01:25 PM
I agree, but I think Graphic-er is on to something. Let's say Ron comes back, busts his butt and shows us his apologies on the court with great play and support for his teammates. Let's say JO respects Carlisle and doesn't go off in the locker room about his touches.

Let's just say that Tins, Ron, JO and Jackson show true contrition and respect for the team and fans over the next 3-4 years.

Well that team would have been LOVED by fans. It would have been seen as fighting the adversity of a crap hostile arena and a crap commissioner.


Now looking back we blend their post-brawl actions in with the initial reaction that season. We judge them not for the brawl but for trade demands, touches demands, coaching complaints, Rio, 8 Seconds, Cloud Nine, Shawne Williams, and whatever it was Tinsley was doing on the court at that point.

That's fair, but it's not the same emotions as we had when Ron returned at FanJam. At that moment we were about to begin the "payback" tour on the league, and that's how they should have handled it. Those guys had it in their hands to do something really special, and that's when they blew it.

When the heat of the moment left and they had time to think about choices the began making a series of disastrous ones.

This is absolutely correct and further proof of the fact that character matters.

As Seth is saying all of this could have had a totally different outcome if any of the above players would have responded differently after the brawl. But it was not in their character to do so.

Saying all of the right things in the press does not change the repercussions of your actions.

If I could engrave the word character at center court I would.

That is why, IMO, the current team (which is not as talented) has a better shot at being a champion than that team ever did.

I do not want to drag all of this up again but I can't help but one more time say that the brawl was just a symptom of the disease.

Bball
03-01-2012, 01:48 PM
I agree, but I think Graphic-er is on to something. Let's say Ron comes back, busts his butt and shows us his apologies on the court with great play and support for his teammates. Let's say JO respects Carlisle and doesn't go off in the locker room about his touches.

Let's just say that Tins, Ron, JO and Jackson show true contrition and respect for the team and fans over the next 3-4 years.

Well that team would have been LOVED by fans. It would have been seen as fighting the adversity of a crap hostile arena and a crap commissioner.


Now looking back we blend their post-brawl actions in with the initial reaction that season. We judge them not for the brawl but for trade demands, touches demands, coaching complaints, Rio, 8 Seconds, Cloud Nine, Shawne Williams, and whatever it was Tinsley was doing on the court at that point.

That's fair, but it's not the same emotions as we had when Ron returned at FanJam. At that moment we were about to begin the "payback" tour on the league, and that's how they should have handled it. Those guys had it in their hands to do something really special, and that's when they blew it.

When the heat of the moment left and they had time to think about choices the began making a series of disastrous ones.

I wonder how different, if at all, things would've played out if Reggie would've stayed for one more season? Would he have been the glue to hold things together and focus that team on a "Us against the League" tour the following season.... If Reggie stays does Dale Davis stay? With Reggie here does Ron still want traded and if he does can Reggie talk him back? Or if not, with Reggie and Dale here does that negate some of the on the court sting of losing Artest from the floor? Does it even open possibility of trading Artest on our own terms, possibly even before he requests a trade?

What if... What if... What if....

But what matters is what transpired and the team that had a chance to make chicken salad out of chicken ---- ended up just laying an egg instead.

The brawl makes a nice target to explain the subsequent decline but sometimes I wonder if the real problem was Reggie was tired of babysitting and the brawl was just the final straw to tell him it was time to get out. Possibly getting out because he was tired of it, possibly getting out before the inmates took over the asylum on his watch anyway.

Naptown_Seth
03-01-2012, 02:32 PM
fwiw I think any drunk enough large mass of fans has the potential to act like that. I've seen plenty of Colts and Pacers fans ready and willing to get violent. I've seen a Colts fan threaten to kill a Pats fan who was doing nothing but watching the game with his son. Seth claims that such a thing would never happen here, and unless he knows od specific policies in security or alcohol distribution that would have curbed it, sorry but that's sentimental crap. Recall the story from one of the interviews about the normal-looking lady who chucked the water-bottle. The mob mentality can turn even the most decent enough people to viciousness.
Conseco/BILF, not a Colts game. Those are different. I've never been to a football game where some drunks didn't get tossed out, and not just in Indy. I went to a few Yanks/Rangers games in Arlington and saw TONS of drunks in fights and getting tossed, but in St. Louis in nicer seats there was no sign of that kind of attitude. And we all know Chicago leads the way in "guys run onto field to fight ump" right now.

The NFL (football in general) glorifies getting hammered and then going into the game. Who in the heck is getting hammered on a Tuesday night by 7:30? Who can afford to live that life AND acquire seats anywhere near the floor?

And the Pacers have always had tons of security as far as I can recall. Not just uniformed cops, but also other security execs in suits that hang about supervising and casually enjoying the game. You'll see these people interacting with guards, etc.

The ushers are typically incapable of stopping a fight, but they do monitor the Best Locker Room access pretty well, which means access to the floor (first 7 rows only).


I mean who would want to risk losing LIFETIME admission if you own full or half season tickets in the first 7 row price ranges. I have cheaper versions than most and even I'd kill any friend that used/abused my seats that way, and I'd never come close to any action like that myself. It's just not how people handle things, it doesn't seem like a behavior that would even be remotely accepted by your neighbors in that area.


And this happened with Mad Max in Portland. He went into the visiting stands after a guy that was SAYING mean things about Maxwell's family. The fans pointed the dude out, got out of the way, and basically were on Maxwell's side of it. They didn't attack him, throw beer at him or try to fight him or any of his teammates. The heckler was considered the bad egg, not the player.


I've been to a lot of games within the first 5 rows of the court and apart from some mouthy drunks making fun of a player I've never seen anyone even close to violent within any reasonable distance of the court...and this includes prior to the brawl.

I've lived in other cities and gone to games in other cities with equally good seats, and you can tell a difference in arena cultures. Indy isn't the only "good" culture at all, but it is one of them.


Gnome and Hicks have also done plenty of trips to other arenas and can at the least attest to different spirits/attitudes in various arenas. For example, in OKC Gnome has mentioned that they don't sit till the first made basket by the Thunder. In Indy that's never been close to happening, its just not something people do and you'd end up with people behind you upset until everyone started doing it and it got accepted.

Naptown_Seth
03-01-2012, 02:43 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/02/09/sports/pro-basketball-maxwell-suspended-and-is-fined-20000.html


Vernon Maxwell, the Houston Rockets' starting shooting guard, was suspended for at least 10 games and fined $20,000 by the National Basketball Association today for running into the stands and punching a heckler during a game at Portland.

Rod Thorn, the league's vice president for operations, called the case unprecedented in his 10 years in the league and said, "We've never had anybody go into the stands, unless it was a fight among players that spilled over into the seats."

The fine matched the highest in league history and the suspension was the second longest, exceeded only by the 26-game ban in the 1977-78 season handed Kermit Washington of Portland for breaking the jaw of another player, Rudy Tomjanovich of Houston, now Maxwell's coach.

During his suspension, Maxwell must meet with league personnel. A decision will then be made as to whether he can return to active status after the 10th game. The suspension began with last night's game at Sacramento.

Maxwell ran a dozen rows into the stands and punched 35-year-old Steve George during a timeout in the third quarter of Houston's 120-82 loss to Portland. George is a home products salesman from Atlanta.


And from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Maxwell

1995: In a game at Portland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland,_Oregon) on February 6, he ran into the stands to punch a fan, later claiming the fan had heckled him over his wife's miscarriage (which was denied).

Note the lack of a fan brawl with Houston players at this point.

Naptown_Seth
03-01-2012, 02:50 PM
I wonder how different, if at all, things would've played out if Reggie would've stayed for one more season? Would he have been the glue to hold things together and focus that team on a "Us against the League" tour the following season.... If Reggie stays does Dale Davis stay? With Reggie here does Ron still want traded and if he does can Reggie talk him back? Or if not, with Reggie and Dale here does that negate some of the on the court sting of losing Artest from the floor? Does it even open possibility of trading Artest on our own terms, possibly even before he requests a trade?

What if... What if... What if....
It's brutal BBall. Spilled milk I realize, but dang...so close to being something awesome.

And I was always mad that they didn't keep James Jones as the new "Reggie", meaning guy who runs off screens and hits 3s. Jones is still brilliant in that role, and could easily match Reggie's end of career defensive level. He at least had the hops to block shots which is something Reggie didn't do.

Clutch? Who knows, but people might have forgotten how clutch he was in Reggie's last season when they played the Nets and Reggie got them back in it with a flurry of late scoring. Jones was the one who hit the final key shot and then FTs, not Reggie.


So many ways this team could have survived the brawl. Stern wasn't the only one who killed the team.

I guess I agree with a lot of you who feel it was inevitable or maybe just for the best in the long run. But it will always remain a really pointless detour in the team's history, and in the careers of all the main culprits.

ECKrueger
03-01-2012, 03:32 PM
Just now got the time to read all this, but it's an awesome read. Definitely worth the time. Can't believe all that happened.

duke dynamite
03-01-2012, 03:45 PM
So many ways this team could have survived the brawl. Stern wasn't the only one who killed the team.

I guess I agree with a lot of you who feel it was inevitable or maybe just for the best in the long run. But it will always remain a really pointless detour in the team's history, and in the careers of all the main culprits.
Talking about the brawl, "what-ifs" and such these past two days really makes it hard to focus on how well we are doing right now. I keep forgetting about DG and Hibbert. West, etc. To me when I think about all this it's just not happening.

To me these what-ifs are making me really light-headed.

Derek2k3
03-01-2012, 03:50 PM
Gnome and Hicks have also done plenty of trips to other arenas and can at the least attest to different spirits/attitudes in various arenas. For example, in OKC Gnome has mentioned that they don't sit till the first made basket by the Thunder. In Indy that's never been close to happening, its just not something people do and you'd end up with people behind you upset until everyone started doing it and it got accepted.

:laugh: Dude, this reminds me of our discussion in the Golden State thread...I don't sit until Indy makes a basket :laugh:

I always let the people behind me know, so they usually stand too. But, yeah. :laugh:

SoupIsGood
03-01-2012, 04:03 PM
For all intensive purposes, you only caught this because of your extra-century perception.

He is the real deal, a bonified grammarian.

chow,
SIG

Grover
03-01-2012, 05:51 PM
Great job again by the Grantland Gang. Love that site!

I'm glad to see something publicly acknowledging that the Pistons were clearly looking for a fight well before it finally broke out (mentioning all the hard fouls after the game was decided - especially Ben's uncalled flagrant on Ron that probably would have started the brawl if World Peace hadn't been put on "double secret zero tolerance probation" by Stern prior to the game). That seemed to be ignored by all reporting media, but I think is very relevant to the events of the evening.

Ben Wallace caused it all acting like an idiot, then not leaving after he couldnít goad Ron into a fight (as he was so desperate to do). Other things may have been able to reduce the carnage, but the fact remains, one guy was acting like a wild jackass who would not be tamed and he got off easy in spite of igniting the entire melee.

I also liked that someone finally pointed out the Pacers short bench. I donít know how many times Iíve heard talking heads ponder why Ron was still out there after the game was decided (ignoring why Ben was still out there) when the answer for the Pacers was obvious.

As to ESPNís change of how the story got reported, John Saunders did address this on a ĎSports Reportersí sometime later (due to some other unrelated incident of idiot fans behaving badly). I donít remember exactly what he said, but it was along the lines of management telling the on-air talent after the brawl that the paying customers are always right and Saunders was pretty much saying, ďI donít care what you tell me to say, Iím telling you that people who act like idiots arenít right and Iím not changing my story then or nowĒ. He seemed kind of defiant while just pointing out the obvious but he mentioned that he was "supposed" to not blame the fans for the Malice at the Palace which shocked me.

Its not healthy, but I donít think Iíll ever not be pissed off about this thing and the way the Pacers were targeted for punishment.:mad:

Slick Pinkham
03-01-2012, 06:37 PM
With Reggie here does Ron still want traded and if he does can Reggie talk him back? ...

Does it even open possibility of trading Artest on our own terms, possibly even before he requests a trade?

What if...

We will never know of course, but my opinion:

Ron was in denial, focused on his rap album, feeling like a victim, and (still) refusing treatment for his issues. If he hadn't demanded a trade at the beginning of the season, he would have acted up and either gotten suspended, demanded a trade, or caused a trade by his own actions long before that season was out, whatever the team record, regardless of whether team leaders wanted him to change in any way.

In retrospect, ChicagoJ was right. Ron's fuse was lit and it was gonna blow, sadly, and we perhaps even got more decent years out of him than we should have based upon his history before the Malice at the palace and, truthfully, before he ever donned a Pacers uniform.

TheDon
03-01-2012, 06:41 PM
I remeber I was home from Purdue for the weekend and was out at a party that night at Botswin dorm at Ball State for some casino night type thing. I remember after the party winded down went back to one of my other friends dorm room and decided, well hopefully the Pacers kicked the Pistons ***.

Then turn on the TV to espn and just see rolling coverage of Artest and Jackson and JO and the fighting and going into the stands. I remember being absolutely stunned and wondering how it all started and watched well through the night and it really seemed like ok well this was the Pistons fault they started and their idiot fans escalated it. Good for our guys for standing up for themselves, hope they knocked a couple of those morons out. I figured since it seemed like the media had absolved us for the most part that public perception and opinion was on our side. I though most of the blame was going to fall on the pistons players and fans and where the brunt of the punishment was going to fall.

Then reality hit, and the suspensions were announced. I can remember thinking it'll be alright we'll just hold serve till our guys get back then take it out on people in the playoffs and artest was only suspended for the season not the playoffs.

I remember like others have mentioned the worst part was next season when Ron demanded a trade and all the other ensuing off-court problems started happening. I remember talking to my friend at one point who knew I was a huge Pacers I think around the 2007 season sometime asking me. When do you think the Pacers will recover from that? I remember going online and checking when the contracts of JO, Jackson, and Tinsley were all gone and off our books and said...ooohh 2009 or 2010'ish.

I honestly dont think if Bird wouldn't have cleaned house, and came up with his whole vague 3 year plan, or if I wouldn't have been to see Hibbert play his first game for us in Pepsi Colliseum, I don't think I'd have continued to follow the Pacers as closely as I have. I don't think I would have stopped being a fan but definately wouldn't have suffered through all the bad and just jumped back on probably this year.

It definitely has put where we are right now in perspective, and made it that much sweeter for those of us that stuck with it.

SycamoreKen
03-01-2012, 06:49 PM
As has been said, a great article. The responses have been great as well. I remember having to go to school the next day and having to explain why my favorite team, had a Reggie poster on the wall, had done that.

So, if the refs calls "all balance out in the end" then I'm looking forward the lebron d wade and rose all fouling out in the playoffs to "balance out" the four point play and this little episode. Don't ever say again the officials don't affect the outcome.

Stryder
03-01-2012, 09:53 PM
"Breen: There were a bunch of people right above where the Pacers were going out. And there was this one young woman who was very nicely dressed in the midst of it. I remember thinking, Oh, this poor woman. In the midst of this mob mentality, I hope she's going to be OK. And as I'm saying that in my head, she pulls out a bottle, a full water bottle, and throws it at point-blank range at the Pacers going off the floor. I couldn't believe it. Even this nicely dressed woman who seemed so out of place in the mob, she just got sucked into the whole mob mentality and it showed you how scary it could be."

Exactly right. Mob mentaility.

I will always remember watching this game. I hadn't gone to a Pacers game in a long, long time. I had purchased tickets a week prior for the first home game directly after this game. Crazy.

Major Cold
03-01-2012, 10:35 PM
I will say the sight of Jamaal Tinsley waving that dustpan around as if he will fight everyone in the arena with that thing, was without a doubt one of the funniest things I have ever seen in my life. To this day I still laugh whenever I see that or just when I think about it

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/Shade20x6/tinsley_dustpan-1.gif

ECKrueger
03-02-2012, 02:27 PM
I couldn't help but laugh when the Tinsley with a dustpan part came up.

Pacersalltheway10
03-02-2012, 04:07 PM
Tom Wilson acted like the Pistons staff wasn't at fault at all. He's a complete idiot.

_The_Future_
03-02-2012, 04:23 PM
What an awesome read. The saddest part about that nigt for me was seeing Reggie (in that $x,000 suit:cool:) getting pelted with drinks, food, and other objects. :(

_The_Future_
03-02-2012, 04:32 PM
That night we were at a buddies house watching the game and were planning on playing poker as soon as the game finished. About a minute before "The Brawl" happened, we decided the game was over and that we were going to start playing. As we started to deal the cards my friend asks his wife what the score was. She replied very plainly, "I'm not sure, somethings going on I think theyre fighting or something I dunno." We jumped up out of our chairs and ran into the living room to the replays of Ron grabbing the fan, Jax open hand slapping the other fan, JO slipping as he swung on another, Ron leaping over the scorers bench, etc. It doesn't seem that long ago. Im proud of how far we have come. I feel like Bird knows how close we were and that he's not going to stop until we are back to that level again and hopefully further.

vapacersfan
03-02-2012, 06:53 PM
Great job again by the Grantland Gang. Love that site!

I'm glad to see something publicly acknowledging that the Pistons were clearly looking for a fight well before it finally broke out (mentioning all the hard fouls after the game was decided - especially Ben's uncalled flagrant on Ron that probably would have started the brawl if World Peace hadn't been put on "double secret zero tolerance probation" by Stern prior to the game). That seemed to be ignored by all reporting media, but I think is very relevant to the events of the evening.

Ben Wallace caused it all acting like an idiot, then not leaving after he couldnít goad Ron into a fight (as he was so desperate to do). Other things may have been able to reduce the carnage, but the fact remains, one guy was acting like a wild jackass who would not be tamed and he got off easy in spite of igniting the entire melee.

I also liked that someone finally pointed out the Pacers short bench. I donít know how many times Iíve heard talking heads ponder why Ron was still out there after the game was decided (ignoring why Ben was still out there) when the answer for the Pacers was obvious.

As to ESPNís change of how the story got reported, John Saunders did address this on a ĎSports Reportersí sometime later (due to some other unrelated incident of idiot fans behaving badly). I donít remember exactly what he said, but it was along the lines of management telling the on-air talent after the brawl that the paying customers are always right and Saunders was pretty much saying, ďI donít care what you tell me to say, Iím telling you that people who act like idiots arenít right and Iím not changing my story then or nowĒ. He seemed kind of defiant while just pointing out the obvious but he mentioned that he was "supposed" to not blame the fans for the Malice at the Palace which shocked me.

Its not healthy, but I donít think Iíll ever not be pissed off about this thing and the way the Pacers were targeted for punishment.:mad:

Wow. Just wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow

idioteque
03-02-2012, 07:18 PM
Am I the only idiot who thought the brawl was awesome when it happened? Granted I was 18, in my first semester of college, and somewhat drunk when it happened, but I didn't fully understand the implications of it until some days later. That night, I thought they players would be getting 10-15 game suspensions max and it wouldn't cost the Pacers much more than a seed in the playoffs.

JonnyB83
03-03-2012, 04:02 PM
**First off I appologize for the aimlessness of this post I kind of go all over the place**
I won't forget where I was when this happened. I was watching it my buddy Chuck. Pacer fans most certainly circled the wagons. This sums up to me how much we circled the wagon. I can't remember what game it was if it was right after the brawl or in the playoffs but I remember the Pacers needed a defensive stop and a time out was called. The ENTIRE crowd chanted De-Fense the whole timeout and throughout the possession. Does that happen now? No. Did it happen often before, I don't know I didn't go to a LOT of Pacer games before that. All I know now is that the crowd doesn't get up unless MG tells them too.
Like I said that season was the first season I went to a lot of pacer games. That's the season I absolutely fell in love with the Pacers. I had always liked them but I obviously I didn't go to a lot of games before that season. I didn't plan my weeks out around Pacer games as I do now. This was the season that inspired me and my friend Carly to get season tickets. I remember being okay with out losses that year because the team just went out there and busted their butts and that's all we really look for as fans.
As for the brawl itself I've always blamed Ben for what happened. I thought the guy could dish out a hard foul but couldn't take one. While it really sucks what Ron did I don't blame him. I always looked at it like If someone came into my work after I just got into a heated argument with a co-worker and threw beer in my face, there's a very good chance I would react the same way. I've always had and will always have a soft spot in my heart for Ron, but the intro video on here made me say "What a prick" I remember where I was when he asked to be traded. I was at one of my wrestling shows and Carly called me and told me. My heart dropped.
SJax I didn't like one bit until the brawl. I respected the fact that he went to help his teammate. SJax was new here, he didn't have to go help Ron but he did. I will always and forever respect him for that.
Now on to JO. JO gave us his best years here. It's an absolute shame he gets booed like he does when ever he comes back. Absolute shame. I always make sure I over cheer him when he's introduced to try and cancel out one or two booers. I personally don't think JO should have been suspended any games. The guy he hit was on the court. I wrestling we're taught, that if your outside the ring get back in, and as soon as they come through the ropes they're fair game and we defend ourselves. That's how I look at what JO did. His comments on how he's proud of what the team is doing right now almost brought me to tears. I would LOVE to sign JO to come off the bench or to a one day contract to retire a Pacer. Thanks for reading my ramblings.

I lied The 03-04 season was the first year I went to a lot of games. I remember leaving happy a lot. Then the next year I wasn't too bummed with losses because the team busted their butts.