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vnzla81
02-27-2012, 01:42 PM
I'm pretty sure we can offer a better package of whatever Minnesota was offering.


http://eye-on-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/34959637


By Matt Moore

It just wouldn't be the All-Star break without incessant trade rumors about Monta Ellis and the Warriors over-valuing him. This year's starter is from the San Jose Mercury News and Tim Kawakami who says that the going price for Ellis hasn't changed, while providing the background for a trade that was discussed last year. Kawakami outlines a deal which would have sent Michael Beasley and Nikolai Pekovic in return for Ellis. The Warriors turned it down, Pekovic was largely irrelevant last year, but has become a monster in Rick Adelman's system, averaging 18.4 points and 11 rebounds per 36 minutes. The lessons, Kawakami says are:

* The Warriors, as has been their stance for years, want a star in return for Ellis, who they consider a premium value because of his rare scoring ability and the dearth of scoring shooting guards in the league.

They don’t want to move Ellis just for cap relief. They are quite insistent on that, I’ve heard.

* But they have not yet been offered anything close to what they consider equal value–if Michael Beasley is the best player discussed in a casual offer, that’s not a big offer.

* You never know what you might get as a throw-in, however, since Pekovic suddenly has become much more valuable than Beasley, almost overnight.
via If the Warriors shop Monta Ellis: One example of what they’ve been offered recently | Talking Points.

That's the biggest reason Ellis hasn't been moved yet. He's too good not to get great return on, but not good enough to have teams clamoring for him to come in and dramatically change their offense. He's a player that as a third option would be monstrous, an absolute killer, and as a second option would be very, very good. But the market for stars is tight right now in the NBA.

The most likely scenario involves Ellis staying through the deadline. There are teams interested in unloading stars, but would the Warriors' management want to part with Ellis for any of the Boston Big 3? Would they consider Josh Smith a star? Targeting Ellis' value is impossible, and until a major shift happens from the Warriors or someone gets desperate, Ellis should be lacing them up in the Bay.

MillerTime
02-27-2012, 01:44 PM
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MillerTime
02-27-2012, 01:45 PM
heres the link is anyone wants it

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/34959637

J7F
02-27-2012, 01:45 PM
n

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Sandman21
02-27-2012, 01:46 PM
o
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Quick, someone say e!

Peck
02-27-2012, 01:50 PM
Shouldn't it be an indicator if the Warriors are wanting to trade him?

vnzla81
02-27-2012, 01:52 PM
Shouldn't it be an indicator if the Warriors are wanting to trade him?

Sorry but I don't get what you are asking here. :blush:

Peck
02-27-2012, 01:55 PM
Sorry but I don't get what you are asking here. :blush:

Why are the Warriors trying to trade him?

Derek2k3
02-27-2012, 02:01 PM
Why are the Warriors trying to trade him?

As far as I remember, they feel they need to pair up a true PG with Curry/Lee. A year or so ago they were looking to bring back a PG and C.

One of those, not completely terrible but not good situations.

Everything I've ever read about him as a teammate has been positive, and man can he score. I think he's the most underrated offensive player in the NBA, but his defense is so bad. Quick hands, but thats it.

EDIT:

Here's an article that seems to answer your question a bit: Why Trade Monta? (http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2011/05/31/trade-monta-ellis-jerry-west-just-might-be-the-guy-to-do-it/)

pacergod2
02-27-2012, 02:03 PM
They have a very small back court with Curry and Ellis. Their skill sets are too redundant with a roster that has the holes it has. Moreso, because they are both PGs that could just as easily be SGs, but don't really have the size of SGs. I think the Warriors would be smart to try to trade small for big, even if they lose a little bit of value. It would help round out their roster and put less pressure on their current stock of bigs.

I think the Warriors are delusional as to what Ellis' value is to other teams. It is a situation like ours that we have a player who is worth more to us than other teams. Ellis is the type of PG that teams would have to adapt their offenses to mid-season or else I think he would be getting more attention from teams. On that note, the All-Star weekend is a huge time for GMs to talk trades. I find it interesting that this is a leak on the first day after the A-S break which says to me the Warriors will be much more active shopping him. I think it will be better long-term for the Warriors if they trade him for more sensible pieces to their roster.

vnzla81
02-27-2012, 02:03 PM
Why are the Warriors trying to trade him?

I think it because at this moment he is their more valuable piece, nobody wants to touch David Lee and Curry's value is low because of his injuries.

Either way their GM sounds pretty much like Larry by saying that "we only trade him if we get an star in return".

Sparhawk
02-27-2012, 02:11 PM
I'd still trade for Curry.

15th parallel
02-27-2012, 02:13 PM
Why are the Warriors trying to trade him?

Since Ellis' name has been floating around the trade rumors for quite some time, the most probable reason is that they are trying to get an upgrade over some positions since he and Curry are somewhat redundant, and Curry right now is harder to trade due to some injury concerns.

vnzla81
02-27-2012, 02:20 PM
He's a player that as a third option would be monstrous, an absolute killer, and as a second option would be very, very good.

Here is the part of the article that I agree with the most, I would love to be able to get him while keeping Danny, PG and Hibbert, as a 2nd or 3rd option Monta and the Pacers could destroy teams, I think Hibbert should be the 1st option, Monta 2nd, Danny 3rd.

Pacer Fan
02-27-2012, 02:24 PM
Ellis for Kaman, Price, 2nd rnd pick and we give Hornets a 1st round pick.

PacersHomer
02-27-2012, 02:26 PM
Ellis for Price and a 2nd rounder would be fair.

RLeWorm
02-27-2012, 02:32 PM
Ellis for Price and a 2nd rounder would be fair.

not really. thats more of how much Granger is worth.

PGisthefuture
02-27-2012, 02:35 PM
Ellis for Kaman, Price, 2nd rnd pick and we give Hornets a 1st round pick.

So who are we getting in this deal exactly?

Derek2k3
02-27-2012, 02:43 PM
So who are we getting in this deal exactly?

Monta.

And no way, Warriors will want a solid defensive wing. My guess is it would take AJ/Paul or Danny. Plus I don't think the Warriors will have an interest in overpaying another big man (David Lee is making $66M over the next 5, Biedrins $27M over the next 3, Kwame $7M. $100M in those players) with Kaman making $14M this season.

Like vz said, if there was a way to keep PG/DG/Roy plus get Monta, that team would be tough. Really tough. Just assume there is no way.

CableKC
02-27-2012, 02:56 PM
Trading for Monte for Granger would IMHO be ( at the very least but likely IMHO ) a lateral move.

The only asset that we have is Granger....but that would shift PG over to SF...which ( despite his size ) there are some of us on PD that don't think that PG is ready to handle the stronger SFs in the League....while requiring that we look for another SF to add to the rotation.

Another thing to consider......subtracting Granger and adding Monta...would be a risky move that could disrupt the chemistry of the Team as well as the flow of the offense this season. A move of this level is something that I think is somewhat risky halfway through the season especially with the progress that we have made. At worst, if Monta is the answer at the cost of Granger...I'd wait until the offseason to make this move.

I definitely think that the Team needs to get another quality scoring WingMan to add to the rotation....but I don't think that we need a "Granger-Level" Borderline "All Star" Player ( unless we can get him cheap ). I think that a "George Hill" level type of Player will make an impact....basically one that is a step below Granger that is considered a "decent Starter but more of a high quality Backup 6th/7th rotational Player" that can come at a cheaper price to acquire that doesn't impact the SalaryCap as much.

Day-V
02-27-2012, 02:56 PM
not really. thats more of how much Granger is worth.

Pretty sure he was kidding...

CableKC
02-27-2012, 02:59 PM
Monta.

And no way, Warriors will want a solid defensive wing. My guess is it would take AJ/Paul or Danny. Plus I don't think the Warriors will have an interest in overpaying another big man (David Lee is making $66M over the next 5, Biedrins $27M over the next 3, Kwame $7M. $100M in those players) with Kaman making $14M this season.

Like vz said, if there was a way to keep PG/DG/Roy plus get Monta, that team would be tough. Really tough. Just assume there is no way.
This. It's nice to dream...but it aint happening.

Speed
02-27-2012, 03:04 PM
I'll say this again in a trade deadline thread, but for what its worth. I'm thinking Larry will

A.) Do an Eric Maynor type trade where you get a prospect for just taking on a salary for someone. I can't remember the 2nd piece of that move for OKC, but I would see him getting like getting a Norris Cole for taking on a vet player for Miami that they don't want to play.

B.) Rondo, Josh Smith without giving up a core piece. Who is the core pieces, well its Paul George for sure and Roy Hibbert most likely. Other guys you don't move since you are getting better and don't have to trade from a weak position meaning Danny.

C.) Nothing - team is good and getting better.

I think A or C, but not B unless there is a fire sale somewhere. I think thats the way to go. Come on Ainge, McHale did it for you, don't you owe Larry something?

We'll hear tons of Rondo talk, but I bet if anything, its a Mayo or the like, type deal.

Hey whats a trade deadline without a Mayo to the Pacers rumor?

OlBlu
02-27-2012, 03:07 PM
I'm pretty sure we can offer a better package of whatever Minnesota was offering.


http://eye-on-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/34959637

He isn't a PG, he is an undersized SG. No thanks....:cool:

Ace E.Anderson
02-27-2012, 03:08 PM
Here is the part of the article that I agree with the most, I would love to be able to get him while keeping Danny, PG and Hibbert, as a 2nd or 3rd option Monta and the Pacers could destroy teams, I think Hibbert should be the 1st option, Monta 2nd, Danny 3rd.

IF the warriors want a star for Ellis (as they should, b/c he's an awesome scorer) then we would have to trade AT LEAST one of those players. Also, I'm sure they would want us to take back one of their bad contracts (unfortunately) Bottom line, I'd think it'd be difficult for the pacers to facilitate a trade for Ellis unless they were willing to part with DG.

pacergod2
02-27-2012, 03:10 PM
Nice post Speed.

I think there is an option for us to get Monta without giving up talent, per se. We could take on Biedrins with Monta, in a cap move for the Warriors. We would obviously have to give up players and/or picks, but I think taking $20M per year for the next two and a half years, would give the Warriors a ton of value. They are looking to spend as it is, plus they could turn around and use their cap space immediately or during the draft via trade.

Pacer Fan
02-27-2012, 03:13 PM
So who are we getting in this deal exactly?

We get Ellis.
Warriors get Kaman, Price and a second pick.
Hornets get our future 1st pick.
Not sure if numbers work. Should be close tho. I'm on my phone.

McKeyFan
02-27-2012, 03:17 PM
I would tempted to do Monta for Granger if we could bring in a strong defender at 3, like a Shawn Marion. Monta would play point.

Speed
02-27-2012, 03:19 PM
I would tempted to do Monta for Granger if we could bring in a strong defender at 3, like a Shawn Marion. Monta would play point.

To me, this is the big thing about any trade involving DG. You have to replace what he can do defensively. Paul is a few years away from handling those assignments over the course of a series. I completely agree with you here!!

vnzla81
02-27-2012, 03:21 PM
Nice post Speed.

I think there is an option for us to get Monta without giving up talent, per se. We could take on Biedrins with Monta, in a cap move for the Warriors. We would obviously have to give up players and/or picks, but I think taking $20M per year for the next two and a half years, would give the Warriors a ton of value. They are looking to spend as it is, plus they could turn around and use their cap space immediately or during the draft via trade.

This is what I was thinking, another way to do it would be by doing a 3 team trade, maybe Okafor+ Ariza to GS, Monta+Biedrins to Indiana and Tyler+DC+Foster+Lou to NO.

pacergod2
02-27-2012, 03:22 PM
He isn't a PG, he is an undersized SG. No thanks....:cool:

We only have a hand full of "true PGs" in this league. That is dwindling by the year, with the way AAU ball has gone for the last decade or two. Great PGs do have to score to be effective. Most PGs use their scoring ability to create passing lanes and space on offense. We are looking at having a guy who can break down a defense by getting into the lane and either scoring, getting guys in foul trouble, or kicking out for ball movement. Ellis has done a much better job of passing this year. I think Mark Jackson has helped in that regard. Plus the Warriors are more talented now than they were two years ago when Monta was more of a black hole on offense. He had to be, just like Granger.

If you put him in our lineup as the starting PG, then you have a diverse line-up with the ability to score from every position. You also have long-range shooters who would thrive off of Ellis' penetration. Our wings still need to do a better job of feeding Hibbert, but I think Ellis would not have to feed the post as much as he would if playing SG. Also, Ellis' defense would be much more suited to guarding players who are similar in stature. Right now, most of the players that hurt Ellis the most defensively are larger guards who he gives us 20 pounds on and four inches to. His quickness and ability to read the passing lanes are things that would benefit us, without losing so much size against PGs.

I really think Ellis would be a different player than most of you assume he would be if he came to our situation. Our coaching staff I would hope, would be using him in a different enough manner, that I believe he would be a much more efficient player than he has been up to this point in his career. Plus Ellis is roughly 25 years old and his maturity has went from a negative to a positive since he has come into the league. I think he would do wonders with veterans such as Foster, West, Hill, and Granger on our team.

CableKC
02-27-2012, 03:25 PM
I would tempted to do Monta for Granger if we could bring in a strong defender at 3, like a Shawn Marion. Monta would play point.
I'd want Dorell Wright along with Monta...but we don't have the assets to do that.

I will default back to what I mentioned before....I think that Bird looks to build upon what we have now....interchanging a KEY Player like Monta and Granger while likely shifting DC to the 2nd Unit would likely cause a major disruption in the offense/defense halfway through the season. Such a move ( if it should be made at all ) should be IMHO be made in the offseason when the Team has more time to become familiar with any new Players.

vnzla81
02-27-2012, 03:29 PM
I would tempted to do Monta for Granger if we could bring in a strong defender at 3, like a Shawn Marion. Monta would play point.

There is Wilson Chandler for the taking if we offer him enough money, Marion and Gerald Wallace are on the trading block, Ariza, Beasley is been shopped for a pick.

Derek2k3
02-27-2012, 04:26 PM
There is Wilson Chandler for the taking if we offer him enough money, Marion and Gerald Wallace are on the trading block, Ariza, Beasley is been shopped for a pick.

Wilson is an RFA, right? Meaning Simon won't let Larry pursue him?

DocHolliday
02-27-2012, 04:39 PM
Oh goody, this discussion again. Still looks like the same situation as last time, but off we go again for another 500 responses!

rexnom
02-27-2012, 04:57 PM
If you can get Ellis without giving up George, Granger or Hibbert, you do it. Somehow I don't think any of those offers are on the table. And so, both teams remain the same.

vnzla81
02-27-2012, 05:02 PM
Wilson is an RFA, right? Meaning Simon won't let Larry pursue him?

True but you never know.

Edit: By the way Mckeyfan Lamar Odom is another guy that could possibly be on the trade block, who knows what Dallas would ask for Odom?

ilive4sports
02-27-2012, 05:09 PM
True but you never know.

Edit: By the way Mckeyfan Lamar Odom is another guy that could possibly be on the trade block, who knows what Dallas would ask for Odom?

Now this intrigues me. 6th man of the year, great for ball movement, jack of all trades.

yoadknux
02-27-2012, 05:15 PM
True but you never know.

Edit: By the way Mckeyfan Lamar Odom is another guy that could possibly be on the trade block, who knows what Dallas would ask for Odom?
uhh, I'm pretty sure Odom was supposed to be traded here few years ago and he went like "No, I don't wanna play in Indiana" (To think the Lakers offered Odom and Bynum for JO and Odom stopped it from happening..)

McKeyFan
02-27-2012, 05:42 PM
Now this intrigues me. 6th man of the year, great for ball movement, jack of all trades.

Nah, we got a few of those already. We need a banger, rebounder. Odom never did much for me.

ilive4sports
02-27-2012, 05:51 PM
Nah, we got a few of those already. We need a banger, rebounder. Odom never did much for me.

He's averaged near 9 rebounds a game for his career, and he plays at SF a lot. We don't have one player like Lamar. Closest is actually PG. Lamar would be a huge boost to this team.

pacergod2
02-27-2012, 05:57 PM
I am a little hesitant to go after Odom. He went through a lot this summer, since I believe a very good friend of his died in a car accident. He showed up to camp in terrible shape and doesn't really seem to interested in basketball. I think getting traded again would just make him that much more apathetic right now until he can really overcome some of the emotional issues he has been dealing with. I really like Odom as a player and as a teammate at this point in his career however.

cdash
02-27-2012, 06:16 PM
* The Warriors, as has been their stance for years, want a star in return for Ellis, who they consider a premium value because of his rare scoring ability and the dearth of scoring shooting guards in the league.


So whoever wrote this considers him a shooting guard. The Warriors play him at shooting guard. Chad Ford insinuated (gotta watch how I word that one) that he is a shooting guard. Yet the experts around here are convinced he can play the point. Hm.

RLeWorm
02-27-2012, 06:40 PM
trade DC or Granger for Ellis. Ellis poops on DC and Granger. Not even a debate

Derek2k3
02-27-2012, 06:52 PM
So whoever wrote this considers him a shooting guard. The Warriors play him at shooting guard. Chad Ford insinuated (gotta watch how I word that one) that he is a shooting guard. Yet the experts around here are convinced he can play the point. Hm.

He's certainly a SG, yet he played a lot of PG before Steph Curry came to town. But, if you're saying you don't think he should play the point, then I agree. He's very valuable driving and kicking, but not at setting up an offense.

vnzla81
02-27-2012, 07:10 PM
So whoever wrote this considers him a shooting guard. The Warriors play him at shooting guard. Chad Ford insinuated (gotta watch how I word that one) that he is a shooting guard. Yet the experts around here are convinced he can play the point. Hm.

Well a lot of people on ESPN feel that Westbrook and Rose should be playing SG instead of PG, those that make their teams wrong for playing them at the point? I don't think so.


I would like to know, what can DC do that a guy like Monta can't?




Note: I'm looking for constructive arguments here.

Nuntius
02-27-2012, 07:12 PM
I would like to know, what can DC do that a guy like Monta can't?


He is willing to take few shots in order to facilitate for his teammates.

PaceBalls
02-27-2012, 07:15 PM
Oh goody, this discussion again. Still looks like the same situation as last time, but off we go again for another 500 responses!

I was just thinking of bumping the "Monta Ellis for Granger??" thread to annoy everyone, but now I don't have to! :box:

Here it is if everyone wants to just read that instead of this one. http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=1347826

Derek2k3
02-27-2012, 07:22 PM
Well a lot of people on ESPN feel that Westbrook and Rose should be playing SG instead of PG, those that make their teams wrong for playing them at the point? I don't think so.


I would like to know, what can DC do that a guy like Monta can't?




Note: I'm looking for constructive arguments here.

IMO there is no comparison. Unless DC all of the sudden became a passing/defensive savant, Monta could comfortably fill his role. Monta is actually averaging nearly an assist more/game.

There's my contribution :cool:

Pacer Fan
02-27-2012, 07:25 PM
We get Ellis.
Warriors get Kaman, Price and a second pick.
Hornets get our future 1st pick.
Numbers do work!

Biedrins will be Amnestied this summer and Kwame Brown is gone at the end of the season. They rolled the dice on Biedrins cause they didn't have a choice and he had been working really hard in the off season. Obviously it didn't help him.

They have already shown interest in Kaman and I see no reason for them not to try and get him. Especially if they can get an extension or commitment by Kaman.

I don't think this is enough give for Ellis, but it could be sweetened easily.

CableKC
02-27-2012, 07:33 PM
Well a lot of people on ESPN feel that Westbrook and Rose should be playing SG instead of PG, those that make their teams wrong for playing them at the point? I don't think so.

I would like to know, what can DC do that a guy like Monta can't?

Note: I'm looking for constructive arguments here.
Monta clearly is the better Player....but the problem is that I don't see an offer of "DC, a 1st and Capspace" will get it done for the Warriors to part with Monta....nor would I take on Biedrin's contract to get Monta. It would likely cost Granger to get Monta.

I have ZERO problem if it's DC...but the Warriors won't do that trade. At least for the rest of this season, I am not ready to make a major move to get a Player like Monta IF it costs us a key core Player like Granger. Not because of whose the better Player...but because of the likely impact to the offense/defense and the overall chemistry of the Team in Mid-season. I simply don't know what the impact would be ( either positive or negative ) if we swap Granger for Monta.

CableKC
02-27-2012, 07:37 PM
We get Ellis.
Warriors get Kaman, Price and a second pick.
Hornets get our future 1st pick.
Numbers do work!

Biedrins will be Amnestied this summer and Kwame Brown is gone at the end of the season. They rolled the dice on Biedrins cause they didn't have a choice and he had been working really hard in the off season. Obviously it didn't help him.

They have already shown interest in Kaman and I see no reason for them not to try and get him. Especially if they can get an extension or commitment by Kaman.

I don't think this is enough give for Ellis, but it could be sweetened easily.
The only way that it could be sweetened is if we swap out AJ for DC.

The trade would end up being:

Deal 1

Pacers send 1st round pick
Pacers receive Kaman

Hornets send out Kaman
Hornets get Pacers 1st

Deal 2

Pacers send out DC+2nd+Kaman
Pacers receive Ellis

Warriors send out Ellis
Warriors receive DC+2nd+Kaman

Unfortunately, I don't think that it's enough.

Speed
02-27-2012, 08:03 PM
Let me say this overall about Golden State.

They need to move Ellis, even if its 70 cents on the dollar. Curry won't be able to realize his potential until they move Ellis. If they could get a Kendrick Perkins type and a Tony Allen type plus a low lottery pick, it wouldn't be sexy, but they'd be better, instantly.

Its why Ellis for Jokim Noah makes so much sense for them, but the Bulls should never even consider it.

Now put him in the backcourt with George Hill, that could be interesting...

CableKC
02-27-2012, 08:15 PM
Let me say this overall about Golden State.

They need to move Ellis, even if its 70 cents on the dollar. Curry won't be able to realize his potential until they move Ellis. If they could get a Kendrick Perkins type and a Tony Allen type plus a low lottery pick, it wouldn't be sexy, but they'd be better, instantly.

Its why Ellis for Jokim Noah makes so much sense for them, but the Bulls should never even consider it.

Now put him in the backcourt with George Hill, that could be interesting...
Maybe something with the TWovles involving Pekovic+WesleyJohnson+filler+1st for Monta+filler?

If needed....WesleyJohnson could be sent to a 3rd Team for a Defensive WingMan?

cdash
02-27-2012, 08:29 PM
Well a lot of people on ESPN feel that Westbrook and Rose should be playing SG instead of PG, those that make their teams wrong for playing them at the point? I don't think so.


I would like to know, what can DC do that a guy like Monta can't?




Note: I'm looking for constructive arguments here.

I actually worded that wrong, my bad. I think he can play point guard in spells. I just think he is best utilized at shooting guard.

DC can't necessarily do things that Monta can't do. It's just that I think he is less of a ball hog, for lack of a better description. DC does look for his shot first, but so does Monta...and Monta looks for his shot much, much more often than DC. He takes more bad shots, and makes more questionable decisions with the ball. Now, part of that is because he is a more gifted offensive player and has proven in the past that he has the ability to make some of those crazy shots. But when they aren't falling...it's trouble.

I don't know of anyone on ESPN who thinks that either Rose or Westbrook should be playing SG instead of PG though. I'd be very interested to see some links or something to support that comment.

Edit: I'm always arguing the case against Monta, but I wouldn't mind acquiring him at the right price. I just don't want to play him at the point. I honestly hope he does get traded to a a solid playoff team and alters his game to become more efficient and less of a volume scorer. I'm just not willing to take the gamble of trading Granger for him, and that's surely what it would take to get him here. Granger, Hibbert, or George.

bballpacen
02-27-2012, 08:30 PM
Maybe something with the TWovles involving Pekovic+WesleyJohnson+filler+1st for Monta+filler?

If needed....WesleyJohnson could be sent to a 3rd Team for a Defensive WingMan?
For DJones...:laugh:

xBulletproof
02-27-2012, 08:54 PM
I'm demanding $100 for this $10 bill. Any takers?

ilive4sports
02-27-2012, 09:11 PM
I actually worded that wrong, my bad. I think he can play point guard in spells. I just think he is best utilized at shooting guard.

DC can't necessarily do things that Monta can't do. It's just that I think he is less of a ball hog, for lack of a better description. DC does look for his shot first, but so does Monta...and Monta looks for his shot much, much more often than DC. He takes more bad shots, and makes more questionable decisions with the ball. Now, part of that is because he is a more gifted offensive player and has proven in the past that he has the ability to make some of those crazy shots. But when they aren't falling...it's trouble.

I don't know of anyone on ESPN who thinks that either Rose or Westbrook should be playing SG instead of PG though. I'd be very interested to see some links or something to support that comment.

Edit: I'm always arguing the case against Monta, but I wouldn't mind acquiring him at the right price. I just don't want to play him at the point. I honestly hope he does get traded to a a solid playoff team and alters his game to become more efficient and less of a volume scorer. I'm just not willing to take the gamble of trading Granger for him, and that's surely what it would take to get him here. Granger, Hibbert, or George.

I think the Thunder would be better with Westbrook at SG (if they brought in a guy at PG). He just doesn't the right mentality to be a PG imo. Even for a scoring PG, idk, to me he just seems like he would be better suited at SG.

Rose on the other hand, no he is fine at PG. I think he makes good decisions with the ball, actively looks for his teammates. He is a scoring PG, but he runs their offense very well.

Chicago is at the top of the league in assists while OKC is at the bottom. Westbrook runs OKC a lot like Tyreke Evans runs the Kings. I don't see that from Rose who is in the top 10 for APG, while Westbrook is barely in the top 20. And Westbrook plays with Kevin Durant!

Steagles
02-27-2012, 09:13 PM
I really like Ellis. I have his jersey and love his game. Just not on this team. No thanks.

Hoop
02-27-2012, 09:30 PM
My dad would always tell me to want in one hand, crap in the other one and see which one gets full first.

Golden State could also take that advice.

PaceBalls
02-27-2012, 09:46 PM
My dad would always tell me to want in one hand, crap in the other one and see which one gets full first.

Golden State could also take that advice.

So you poop in your hand? Sounds like some unsanitary, fatherly advice to me.

vnzla81
02-27-2012, 09:52 PM
So you poop in your hand? Sounds like some unsanitary, fatherly advice to me.

:laugh:

CableKC
02-27-2012, 10:00 PM
For DJones...:laugh:
If the Pacers could be involved as a 3rd Team and the Pacers could get Wesley Johnson for Inferno...sure...I'd do that. ;) I doubt that the Warriors or TWolves would do that....

ksuttonjr76
02-27-2012, 10:03 PM
I would tempted to do Monta for Granger if we could bring in a strong defender at 3, like a Shawn Marion. Monta would play point.

Wow. I swear this is the first post for a Granger trade that didn't have the words "Have Paul play the 3...".

CJ Jones
02-27-2012, 10:15 PM
To me, this is the big thing about any trade involving DG. You have to replace what he can do defensively. Paul is a few years away from handling those assignments over the course of a series. I completely agree with you here!!

He's a few years away from being strong enough to keep some of the bigger SFs from posting up, but there's only a few of those in the league. Once you get past those players the rest aren't much of a threat. I'd say it's arguably the easiest position to defend. I challenge anyone to find me 5 players Paul can't guard if he had to switch to SF.

The reason I'm bringing this up is because people keep saying Paul is too weak to defend Sfs like it's just a known fact. He got posted up one time guarding Joe Johnson, and then all of a sudden PD thinks he can't guard anyone in the post? I don't believe that at all. With more experience he could easily guard 90% of the SFs right now. In a couple years there won't be another player in the league you'd rather guard the LeBrons and Durants of the world... yeah IMO he's that good. I would hope if a deal came along Bird liked he wouldn't hesitate to switch him.

I don't know if anyone caught Barkley's comment during the All Star Game, but apparently he agrees with me that strength is overrated in the NBA. It's nice to have it, but you don't need it.




If you put him in our lineup as the starting PG

Really good post. I doubt you get many thanks for it, but I agree we would be a dangerous team. If Monta bought in that team could challenge for a championship IMO.

But Monta being a selfish malcontent is another known fact around here...


There is Wilson Chandler for the taking if we offer him enough money, Marion and Gerald Wallace are on the trading block, Ariza, Beasley is been shopped for a pick.

Monta, Paul, and Chandler would be sweeet on the break. :drool:

SycamoreKen
02-27-2012, 10:34 PM
We get Ellis.
Warriors get Kaman, Price and a second pick.
Hornets get our future 1st pick.
Numbers do work!

Biedrins will be Amnestied this summer and Kwame Brown is gone at the end of the season. They rolled the dice on Biedrins cause they didn't have a choice and he had been working really hard in the off season. Obviously it didn't help him.

They have already shown interest in Kaman and I see no reason for them not to try and get him. Especially if they can get an extension or commitment by Kaman.

I don't think this is enough give for Ellis, but it could be sweetened easily.

Didn't they use their amnesty slot on Bell? It was one of the moves that had people shaking thier heads.

Pacer Fan
02-27-2012, 10:36 PM
I challenge anyone to find me 5 players Paul can't guard if he had to switch to SF.


I Challenge you!
These players are just for starters...

Derrick Stafford
Jason Phillips
Dick Bavetta
Joe Crawford
Violet Palmer
Dan Crawford
Bill Kennedy
Ken Mauer

Derek2k3
02-27-2012, 10:40 PM
Didn't they use their amnesty slot on Bell? It was one of the moves that had people shaking thier heads.

Yeah, they amnestied his $4M/1 year contract :laugh:

Anthem
02-27-2012, 11:12 PM
Edit: I'm always arguing the case against Monta, but I wouldn't mind acquiring him at the right price.
Same here. For all the grief I give Venezuela, I've got no problem with Monta. I'd love to see what he'd do while being coached by Vogel.

But I'm not seeing GS as a good trading partner here. People are talking about trading Collison for him? That makes NO sense for GS... they're trying to get bigger, remember?

v_d_g
02-27-2012, 11:13 PM
trade DC or Granger for Ellis. Ellis poops on DC and Granger. Not even a debate

Yeah. I mean, it's incredible here. People actually think that the Warriors would let Ellis go for Kaman and A.J. Price. It's beyond RETARDED here.

The problem with the Pacers, the reason the Pacers will NEVER get far, is that they just don't have a goto player. An UNGUARDABLE player -- someone who can get you two (or more) any time he wants (especially during crunch time) on get to the foul line. Last time I looked, the Pacers don't have anyone remotely resembling this. And, Granger's attempt at this against the Bulls last year was COMICAL.

Once again: Ellis is UNGUARDABLE. This ain't the BRUTISH '90's any longer -- quick, athletic guards, with shooting touches, are the STARS in the present NBA. (Not good acting charge takers.) Unless you have James or Wade or Bryant or Durant on your team -- and the Pacers are VERY FAR from this point -- Ellis is not playing 2nd option. The idea that he'd be BENEATH Hibbert and Granger in terms of a go to role is DELUSIONAL. Then again, that's what repeatedly makes the rounds here.

Kaman and ****in' A.J. Price for Ellis. Now, that's just flat out embarrassing --- especially given that those offering this actually believe it to be a fair trade.

Anthem
02-27-2012, 11:13 PM
Once again: Ellis is UNGUARDABLE.
You did see the Pacers/Warriors game, right?

CJ Jones
02-27-2012, 11:21 PM
You did see the Pacers/Warriors game, right?

You guys act like Monta sucked that game. He was killing Paul... then he posted up and scored on Hill at will. No one could stop him that game.

Danny played well too, but cmon man...

cdash
02-27-2012, 11:23 PM
Same here. For all the grief I give Venezuela, I've got no problem with Monta. I'd love to see what he'd do while being coached by Vogel.

But I'm not seeing GS as a good trading partner here. People are talking about trading Collison for him? That makes NO sense for GS... they're trying to get bigger, remember?

Yeah. Honestly the only trade that makes sense for both teams on paper is Granger for Monta straight up, and I don't think Bird would do that and I personally wouldn't want him to do that. The Pacers wouldn't even entertain dealing Hibbert or George unless it netted them someone like Dwight Howard, and he were willing to sign an extension here. Seeing as how that isn't going to happen, those two are off the board for all intents and purposes.

Anthem
02-27-2012, 11:31 PM
You guys act like Monta sucked that game. He was killing Paul... then he posted up and scored on Hill at will. No one could stop him that game.

Danny played well too, but cmon man...
:laugh: Mostly that's just me being a pain. Definitely a great game for Monta (although he got outscored by Granger) but I don't think you should call a guy "UNGUARDABLE" when he got stripped on the last possession.

Still, I won't deny that Monta has the ability to make crazy ridiculous shots.

The funny thing was that until I looked at the box score, I'd have sworn that Monta outscored Danny. One of the reasons Danny's a hard guy to judge is that he'll have completely quiet nights where you look up and he's scored 20. With Monta, you definitely know it every time he makes a shot. That whole game, I thought "Man, Monta is KILLING us" but I doubt the GS fans were saying the same about Granger, even though Granger scored more points.

vnzla81
02-27-2012, 11:52 PM
I actually worded that wrong, my bad. I think he can play point guard in spells. I just think he is best utilized at shooting guard.

DC can't necessarily do things that Monta can't do. It's just that I think he is less of a ball hog, for lack of a better description. DC does look for his shot first, but so does Monta...and Monta looks for his shot much, much more often than DC. He takes more bad shots, and makes more questionable decisions with the ball. Now, part of that is because he is a more gifted offensive player and has proven in the past that he has the ability to make some of those crazy shots. But when they aren't falling...it's trouble.

I don't know of anyone on ESPN who thinks that either Rose or Westbrook should be playing SG instead of PG though. I'd be very interested to see some links or something to support that comment.

Edit: I'm always arguing the case against Monta, but I wouldn't mind acquiring him at the right price. I just don't want to play him at the point. I honestly hope he does get traded to a a solid playoff team and alters his game to become more efficient and less of a volume scorer. I'm just not willing to take the gamble of trading Granger for him, and that's surely what it would take to get him here. Granger, Hibbert, or George.

Skip Bayless hates Westbrook and Rose at the point, he feels like they score too much for his liking.


Regarding Monta as the point guard and been to much of a ball hog, I would love for you to watch more GS games if you can, he is passing and feeding the other players, if he was such a ball hog, Curry and Lee wouldn't average as much as they average right now, I actually think they lost few games because Mark made Monta the passer instead of the finisher, he gave the ball to Lee at one time and Lee ended up turning the ball over, he also gave the ball to Curry at the end of a game and the same thing happened, I could tell you that it looks like Mark finally figured out that Monta is a closer and is starting to let him close games again reason why they won the Phoenix game by Monta making a last second shot.

Anthem
02-27-2012, 11:54 PM
Regarding Monta as the point guard and been to much of a ball hog, I would love for you to watch more GS games if you can, he is passing and feeding the other players, if he was such a ball hog, Curry and Lee wouldn't average as much as they average right now, I actually think they lost few games because Mark made Monta the passer instead of the finisher, he gave the ball to Lee at one time and Lee ended up turning the ball over, he also gave the ball to Curry at the end of a game and the same thing happened, I could tell you that it looks like Mark finally figured out that Monta is a closer and is starting to let him close games again reason why they won the Phoenix game by Monta making a last second shot.
Hey, I can buy all that. But can you imagine any deal where they're giving up Monta and getting back Collison? That doesn't help them at all.

vnzla81
02-28-2012, 12:05 AM
Same here. For all the grief I give Venezuela, I've got no problem with Monta. I'd love to see what he'd do while being coached by Vogel.

But I'm not seeing GS as a good trading partner here. People are talking about trading Collison for him? That makes NO sense for GS... they're trying to get bigger, remember?

We would have to make a 3 team trade to get Monta if we want to keep Danny, probably something like GS gets Al Jefferson, Indiana gets Monta and Utah gets DC+ pick + Tyler.

vnzla81
02-28-2012, 12:30 AM
I also came up with this 3 way trade:


GS gets Okafor+Ariza, Indiana gets Monta, NO gets Biedrins+ Tyler+DC+picks.

Why would GS do it? because they need a center that can play D and block shots, they wanted Chandler and signed Jordan to an offer sheet, they also need an SF that can play D and Ariza is perfect for them.


Why would NO do it? well by moving Ariza/Okafor they save a lot of money and they also get two young players in Tyler and DC to rebuild for the future, a serviceable big man and picks(2nd round picks+1st round pick).

Why would Indiana do it? well they are going to get one of the best scorers in the NBA, having an starting team of Monta,PG,Danny,West,Hibbert could put the Pacers on the top in my opinion.

Sandman21
02-28-2012, 12:36 AM
I'll make it easy: Talk this guy out of retirement and sign him:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/starrke01.html

Trade him for Monta. Boom. Problem solved. Golden State gets a Starr. :D

ksuttonjr76
02-28-2012, 01:23 AM
Yeah. I mean, it's incredible here. People actually think that the Warriors would let Ellis go for Kaman and A.J. Price. It's beyond RETARDED here.

The problem with the Pacers, the reason the Pacers will NEVER get far, is that they just don't have a goto player. An UNGUARDABLE player -- someone who can get you two (or more) any time he wants (especially during crunch time) on get to the foul line. Last time I looked, the Pacers don't have anyone remotely resembling this. And, Granger's attempt at this against the Bulls last year was COMICAL.

Once again: Ellis is UNGUARDABLE. This ain't the BRUTISH '90's any longer -- quick, athletic guards, with shooting touches, are the STARS in the present NBA. (Not good acting charge takers.) Unless you have James or Wade or Bryant or Durant on your team -- and the Pacers are VERY FAR from this point -- Ellis is not playing 2nd option. The idea that he'd be BENEATH Hibbert and Granger in terms of a go to role is DELUSIONAL. Then again, that's what repeatedly makes the rounds here.

Kaman and ****in' A.J. Price for Ellis. Now, that's just flat out embarrassing --- especially given that those offering this actually believe it to be a fair trade.

Who was the unguardable player when the Pacers made the NBA Finals in 2000? Don't worry. I'll wait.

rexnom
02-28-2012, 01:40 AM
Who was the unguardable player when the Pacers made the NBA Finals in 2000? Don't worry. I'll wait.
Isn't his argument that we've moved away from that era? No longer can you have teams constructed like the 90s Pacers.

ksuttonjr76
02-28-2012, 02:08 AM
Isn't his argument that we've moved away from that era? No longer can you have teams constructed like the 90s Pacers.

And why not? I'm sorry, but I don't believe "We need a Superstar" to win it all concept. We're in a market where the REAL Superstars of the league are not dying to sign with, and no one is going to hand us their Superstar without gutting our team. So, guess what? We have to construct this team like the 90s Pacers.

This team is solid and can compete now. You all do realize that this team is 21-12 this season? If we're winning with a TEAM, then why are in a rush to blow up this TEAM for a Superstar? Not only that, some of you are in rush to blow up this TEAM in order to give the reigns to Paul George. Minus the Miami Heat and maybe the Clippers this season, I don't know too many teams that went from zeros to heros in less than 3-4 seasons.

rexnom
02-28-2012, 03:04 AM
And why not? I'm sorry, but I don't believe "We need a Superstar" to win it all concept. We're in a market where the REAL Superstars of the league are not dying to sign with, and no one is going to hand us their Superstar without gutting our team. So, guess what? We have to construct this team like the 90s Pacers.

This team is solid and can compete now. You all do realize that this team is 21-12 this season? If we're winning with a TEAM, then why are in a rush to blow up this TEAM for a Superstar? Not only that, some of you are in rush to blow up this TEAM in order to give the reigns to Paul George. Minus the Miami Heat and maybe the Clippers this season, I don't know too many teams that went from zeros to heros in less than 3-4 seasons.
I'm not necessarily in one corner or the other but you can't deny certain realities: this team has trouble scoring on a consistent basis, especially at the end of games. We can only expect that to increase in the playoffs.

Monta Ellis does not have trouble with scoring...at any point of the game. However, he has serious deficiencies at several other areas of his game. At the 2, he's undersized, leaving him particularly vulnerable on the defensive end (and even more so with an undersized 1, like Darren). At the 1, he's not a distributor and/or floor general. It's unclear how well he'll find other guys, how well he'll play the pick and roll with West, how well he can feed Roy in the post, etc.

These deficiencies are exactly what prevent him from being a superstar. I believe you are conflating the argument that we need a superstar to compete with the argument that we should acquire Ellis. The argument in favor of acquiring him, as I understand it, is that if it can be done without giving up the Granger-George-Hibbert core, the downgrade from Collison to Ellis at the 1 is worth the upgrade on the offensive end.

The main disagreement lies at how large you think that downgrade is (ostensibly none, in vnzla's case) and how large the upgrade is on the offensive end (ostensibly tremendous, in vnzla's case).

rexnom
02-28-2012, 03:08 AM
For the record, I'm sold that a trade that retains the George-Granger-Hibbert core while acquiring Ellis would be a net positive. I'm not at all sold that a Granger-Ellis trade would be worth it at all. At best, it would be a lateral, as many have pointed out. At worst, it would be a huge chemistry loss and a massive defensive downgrade. Obviously, the former trade is much less realistic, which is why I think we haven't seen Ellis moved yet.

I think Danny is the heart of the team and I think the team should treat him like Boston treated Paul Pierce. As many have written, Danny is one of these players more valuable to us than any other team.

TheDavisBrothers
02-28-2012, 03:48 AM
Skip Bayless hates Westbrook and Rose at the point, he feels like they score too much for his liking.

Skip Bayless is a complete idiot tho...

As for the trade proposals that have been thrown around on here, I just don't see any way for us to get Ellis without giving George, Granger, or Hibbert, and odviously that's not gonna happen. I would be all for getting him without giving up those 3 but that's just a pipe dream imo

pacergod2
02-28-2012, 11:03 AM
I proposed a trade which had Tyler, Kaman, and two of our first round picks going to Golden State, Collison going to NO, and Monta coming here. That is a heck of a lot more realistic than most of what has been projected here.

I think vzla81's idea with the Jazz makes a ton of sense as well. I would love to pry Millsap from them, but that is wishful thinking.

Overall, there is absolutely no downgrade fom Collison to Monta in any facet of the game, except in the locker room where Collison seems to be a top notch human. Defensively, offensively, special teams.... err.... uh. You know what I am getting at.

vnzla81
02-28-2012, 11:20 AM
I'm not necessarily in one corner or the other but you can't deny certain realities: this team has trouble scoring on a consistent basis, especially at the end of games. We can only expect that to increase in the playoffs.

Monta Ellis does not have trouble with scoring...at any point of the game. However, he has serious deficiencies at several other areas of his game. At the 2, he's undersized, leaving him particularly vulnerable on the defensive end (and even more so with an undersized 1, like Darren). At the 1, he's not a distributor and/or floor general. It's unclear how well he'll find other guys, how well he'll play the pick and roll with West, how well he can feed Roy in the post, etc.
These deficiencies are exactly what prevent him from being a superstar. I believe you are conflating the argument that we need a superstar to compete with the argument that we should acquire Ellis. The argument in favor of acquiring him, as I understand it, is that if it can be done without giving up the Granger-George-Hibbert core, the downgrade from Collison to Ellis at the 1 is worth the upgrade on the offensive end.

The main disagreement lies at how large you think that downgrade is (ostensibly none, in vnzla's case) and how large the upgrade is on the offensive end (ostensibly tremendous, in vnzla's case).

I can tell you that Monta is great on the pick and roll, him and Lee are amazing at running it, remember that Lee is not a back to the basket type of player must of his points come from pick and roll plays.

Ace E.Anderson
02-28-2012, 11:42 AM
I also came up with this 3 way trade:


GS gets Okafor+Ariza, Indiana gets Monta, NO gets Biedrins+ Tyler+DC+picks.

Why would GS do it? because they need a center that can play D and block shots, they wanted Chandler and signed Jordan to an offer sheet, they also need an SF that can play D and Ariza is perfect for them.


Why would NO do it? well by moving Ariza/Okafor they save a lot of money and they also get two young players in Tyler and DC to rebuild for the future, a serviceable big man and picks(2nd round picks+1st round pick).

Why would Indiana do it? well they are going to get one of the best scorers in the NBA, having an starting team of Monta,PG,Danny,West,Hibbert could put the Pacers on the top in my opinion.


As much as I'd love to see this go down, I just don't see why NO does this lol. DC+Tyler and picks?

Then I saw they received Al Farooq Aminu, and Kaman as a part of the CP3 deal and figured they MAY be dumb enough to make this move lol.

On the serious side however, that starting 5 would be very well balanced and a serious ECF contender.

vnzla81
02-28-2012, 12:04 PM
As much as I'd love to see this go down, I just don't see why NO does this lol. DC+Tyler and picks?

Then I saw they received Al Farooq Aminu, and Kaman as a part of the CP3 deal and figured they MAY be dumb enough to make this move lol.

On the serious side however, that starting 5 would be very well balanced and a serious ECF contender.

New Orleans motivation would be to save money and get draft picks, by moving Okafor+Ariza they are going to save a lot of money, we could probably help them even more by taking into JJ's two years left contract.

And there is not doubt that we can beat any team with an starting unit of Monta,PG,Danny,West,Hibbert, maybe Miami is still better but after that I don't see anybody as good.

Lance George
02-28-2012, 12:10 PM
Overall, there is absolutely no downgrade fom Collison to Monta in any facet of the game, except in the locker room where Collison seems to be a top notch human. Defensively, offensively, special teams.... err.... uh. You know what I am getting at.

Collison's a legitimate pass-first point guard with one of the best assist-to-turnover ratios in the league, whereas Ellis is a shot-happy comboguard who's also a turnover machine.

If we played Collison the way Golden State plays Monta─huge minutes and total domination (30%+) of our offensive possessions─there's no question he could give us close to 20 & 10 a night.

Don't believe me?

Just take a look at what he did as a starter during his rookie season. That was New Orleans using Collison the way Golden State uses Monta; huge minutes (40.2), and total ball domination.

The end result? 18.8 ppg, and 9.1 apg (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/collida01/splits/2010/), and he did it while being far more efficient than Monta.

Darren could do that for us, I'm sure, but is it conductive to winning? I would think most would say no. I'm not so sure current Monta Ellis is conductive to winning, either.

If we could refine Monta's game, get him playing under control, with less ball domination (less shots, less turnovers), and get him to buy into the team concept─all without *****ing─he could help us out, I'm sure.

I don't know if that's possible.

pacergod2
02-28-2012, 12:16 PM
Collison's a legitimate pass-first point guard with one of the best assist-to-turnover ratios in the league, whereas Ellis is a shot-happy comboguard who's also a turnover machine.

If we played Collison the way Golden State plays Monta─huge minutes and total domination (30%+) of our offensive possessions─there's no question he could give us close to 20 & 10 a night.

Don't believe me?

Just take a look at what he did as a starter during his rookie season. That was New Orleans using Collison the way Golden State uses Monta; huge minutes (40.2), and total ball domination.

The end result? 18.8 ppg, and 9.1 apg (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/collida01/splits/2010/), and he did it while being far more efficient than Monta.

Darren could do that for us, I'm sure, but is it conductive to winning? I would think most would say no.

I'm sorry, I just can't agree with you. Collison is far from a pass first point guard in my opinion, but we obviously disagree. Collison is terrible at setting up the pick and roll and can't defend it if his life depended on it. I love Darren, don't get me wrong, but for me to think that Monta is not a complete upgrade from Darren I would have to change the way I see the game. And that won't happen. I appreciate your opinion, however.

vnzla81
02-28-2012, 12:21 PM
Slow footed Brook Lopez with David Lee? :hmm:




There are renewed rumblings about the Warriors possibly getting Brook Lopez from the Nets in a multi-team deal involving Howard. That would cost them big time, though; Monta Ellis would be part of the Magic’s compensation

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/whine_not_Nw3Ihb2C28brFVhCAXnTQO#ixzz1nh56Hghb

pacergod2
02-28-2012, 12:30 PM
Wow. Now we are talking. That is probably the most interesting thing I have heard in regards to the Dwight rumblings. Everything else is a major sports personality throwing out ideas and trade proposal rumors like we do on here, only with the criteria that Dwight only ends up in LA.

Ellis seems like the perfect type of player that Otis Smith would want in return. I just don't understand what they would do with Jameer Nelson and Hedo Turkoglu. Would Turk go to NJ? Whose salary does Golden State pick up? Is there a fourth team? Monta makes sense, but when you throw David Lee into the mix and pair Monta with Nelson, it loses sensibility for me.

Ellis to Orl, Lopez to GS, Dwight to NJ, first round picks from NJ to ORL? I would think that Ellis for Lopez would be a pretty even swap, but I could be wrong. Ellis is better than Lopez, but Lopez is a more valuable big.

vnzla81
02-28-2012, 12:39 PM
To me Ellis for Lopez doesn't make sense because they have Lee, GS needs a big guy that can play D and rebound, Lopez is also too slow to pair him with Lee, not a good deal.

2minutes twoa
02-28-2012, 12:50 PM
Would love to see DC and Tyler have big games tonight! Might be enough to tempt the Warriors front office!

Lance George
02-28-2012, 12:53 PM
I'm sorry, I just can't agree with you. Collison is far from a pass first point guard in my opinion, but we obviously disagree.

You'd have to define what you think a pass-first point guard is. My (crude) definition is a point guard who averages at least one assist for every two shot attempts. Collison fits this criteria, Ellis does not, not even close.

A much better metric could probably be formulated by working with USG% and AST%, but that's for another day.


I love Darren, don't get me wrong, but for me to think that Monta is not a complete upgrade from Darren I would have to change the way I see the game.

I just don't see the value in an inefficient chucker who's turnover prone. I think you're looking too much at the raw stats, 22 & 6, which look very impressive, and too little at how those stats were acquired: A ton of shots and using up nearly one-third of Golden State's offensive possessions. Give pretty much any player a third of his team's offensive possessions, and that player will put up huge numbers.

The Monta Ellis Game Plan:

• Shoot (Miss)
• Shoot (Miss)
• Shoot (Make)
• Turnover
• Shoot (Make)
• Shoot (Miss)
• Pass
• Turnover
• Lose the Game

That wont win you many games. If you don't believe me, just check out Golden State's record over the past four years or so.

Maybe Ellis would stop being a blackhole chucker here, but that's a very risky maybe considering his price tag (salary and what it would cost to acquire him) and how well our team is playing.

Let's rape the Warriors for Stephen Curry instead.

CableKC
02-28-2012, 01:21 PM
To me Ellis for Lopez doesn't make sense because they have Lee, GS needs a big guy that can play D and rebound, Lopez is also too slow to pair him with Lee, not a good deal.
I'd assume that the preference is to get a defensive and rebounding Center....but Brook is better than Biedrins in the lineup to pair next to Lee. The Warriors have the Wing Players to make up ( at least for this season ) for the loss of Monta but could fill a hole that they have at the Center spot.

xBulletproof
02-28-2012, 01:28 PM
I defend Collison a lot on this place, but even I'm not touching the idea of defending him over Ellis.

Lance George
02-28-2012, 02:00 PM
I defend Collison a lot on this place, but even I'm not touching the idea of defending him over Ellis.

What kind of numbers do you think Collison would produce if we played him 40 minutes a night while allowing him to use nearly one-third of our possessions?

McKeyFan
02-28-2012, 02:10 PM
What kind of numbers do you think Collison would produce if we played him 40 minutes a night while allowing him to use nearly one-third of our possessions?

12-21

pacergod2
02-28-2012, 02:22 PM
Maybe Ellis would stop being a blackhole chucker here, but that's a very risky maybe considering his price tag (salary and what it would cost to acquire him) and how well our team is playing.

This is the biggest concern anybody should have when talking about obtaining Ellis. Is he capable of adapting his game to the team around him? I absolutely think he can, with the way he played recently without Curry. That also gives him the incentive to shoot more as well, considering how much Curry shoots when he is there. I am not saying Monta is efficient, but what we lack is a go-to scorer and a guy that can round out our team's skill set. I think with as efficient as most of the rest of our roster is, that he would actually compliment them, by taking pressure off of them offensively. I also think he would pass a lot more with our players than the ones he plays with currently, which is purely speculative.


What kind of numbers do you think Collison would produce if we played him 40 minutes a night while allowing him to use nearly one-third of our possessions?

I don't think Collison is good enough to play 40 minutes a night on most NBA rosters. Especially not a playoff team. I think Darren Collison's best role is to be the best backup PG in the league. He pushes the tempo for 20 minutes a night and can be very effective. You give him more minutes than that and he kills you defensively. Collison might average 20 ppg if he played 40 mpg, but he would give up 40 ppg on a nightly basis with his poor defensive play. Monta is a guy that even if he gives up 25 points defensively, you know night in and night out that he has a great chance to outscore his defensive lapses. I can't say that about Collison. That is also why he gets put at SG. Plus, I think Curry is a terrific passer, which is the biggest reason why I would put Ellis at SG in GS. I still think Ellis' best position is PG. It minimizes his defensive weaknesses and you still get his ability to score and force defenses into rotation.

RLeWorm
02-28-2012, 02:30 PM
Granger for Ellis!!!! Do it Bird! Granger as our #1 is going to get us nowhere. Ellis is a scoring machine! Granger can't even dribble! Ellis could drop 40 on any night! When Granger is off he is off!

xBulletproof
02-28-2012, 02:30 PM
What kind of numbers do you think Collison would produce if we played him 40 minutes a night while allowing him to use nearly one-third of our possessions?

To be blunt. Crappy ones.

Ellis shot over 50% his first couple seasons in the NBA because defenses weren't keying in on him. As time has passed he's settled down in the 45% area which isn't horrible. 50% for a guard is rare air though.

Yet, as we stand here today Collison shoots near 45% without that attention. If defenses keyed in on him it would be a nightmare if he was shooting that much. Where Ellis and Collison are comparable in efficiency numbers, it wouldn't be that way for long if Collison got the attention Ellis does. Wouldn't even be close.

You make it sound as though if you just extrapolate Collisons numbers and double his touches everything around him stays the same as his numbers balloon. It doesn't work that way.

Lance George
02-28-2012, 02:43 PM
What kind of numbers do you think Collison would produce if we played him 40 minutes a night while allowing him to use nearly one-third of our possessions?

Antoine Walker may be the modern-day king of using a combination of big minutes and high usage rates to produce inflated numbers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/walkean02.html

Who's that putting up 23/9/6 on the Celtics? Is it a reincarnated Larry Bird? LeBron James doppelganger?

Nope. It's just Antoine Walker putting up some inflated stats on a 36-win team.


Some other big minutes, high usage inflated seasons in recent NBA history:

Jerry Stackhouse, 2000-01: 40.2 mpg, 35.2 USG%, 29.8 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 5.1 apg, 32 wins

Antawn Jamison, 2000-01: 41.4 mpg, 27.9 USG%, 24.9 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 2.0 apg, 17 wins

Ricky Davis, 2002-03: 39.6 mpg, 27.6 USG%, 20.6 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 5.5 apg, 17 wins

Jalen Rose, 2002-03: 40.9 mpg, 27.4 USG%, 22.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 4.8 apg, 30 wins

Monta Ellis, 2010-11: 40.3 mpg, 28.1 USG%, 24.1 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.6 apg, 36 wins


How about this analogy? Current Monta Ellis is to Derrick Rose as prime Jerry Stackhouse was to Kobe Bryant. Sounds about right to me.

Ace E.Anderson
02-28-2012, 02:46 PM
You'd have to define what you think a pass-first point guard is. My (crude) definition is a point guard who averages at least one assist for every two shot attempts. Collison fits this criteria, Ellis does not, not even close.

A much better metric could probably be formulated by working with USG% and AST%, but that's for another day.



I just don't see the value in an inefficient chucker who's turnover prone. I think you're looking too much at the raw stats, 22 & 6, which look very impressive, and too little at how those stats were acquired: A ton of shots and using up nearly one-third of Golden State's offensive possessions. Give pretty much any player a third of his team's offensive possessions, and that player will put up huge numbers.

The Monta Ellis Game Plan:

• Shoot (Miss)
• Shoot (Miss)
• Shoot (Make)
• Turnover
• Shoot (Make)
• Shoot (Miss)
• Pass
• Turnover
• Lose the Game

That wont win you many games. If you don't believe me, just check out Golden State's record over the past four years or so.

Maybe Ellis would stop being a blackhole chucker here, but that's a very risky maybe considering his price tag (salary and what it would cost to acquire him) and how well our team is playing.

Let's rape the Warriors for Stephen Curry instead.


Someone is obviously NOT a Monta Ellis fan lol.

Personal opinions aside (I am NOT a fan of DC) I don't see how anyone could ever say that DC is anywhere near as good as Monta Ellis. DC looked impressive over a 40 game span with NO, I will give you that. But he hasn't been anything close to that since. Ellis meanwhile has proven to be one of the best scorers in the league.


Ellis has proven to be less of a ball-dominant teammate when GS defeated DAL in the playoffs. Ever since then, he hasn't played with a consistent scorer aside from Curry. GS isn't all that good to begin with, but if Ellis doesn't score, then they don't even have a chance to be competitive.

I honestly don't see much of the risk in trading for him. He's young, and his contract is extremely reasonable for his production. In spite of our 4 game winning streak, we aren't exactly playing "lights-out" (we struggled to beat NO and NJ at home)

So what would it cost to get him? If we did a straight GS/IND swap, it would require at least DG or PG+picks. Whether or not that's fair value is a completely different argument.

Ace E.Anderson
02-28-2012, 02:47 PM
As much as I LOVE DG, I would entertain a trade consisting of:

DG+DC for Ellis+Wright.

GS does this trade because they get a good starting SF, which opens up more PT for their 1st round pick Klay Thompson. They also get a reliable backup PG in case (when) Curry's ankles act up again.

The Pacers do this trade because it allows us to get a premier one-on-one scorer (something we desperately lack). We move G.Hill to the starting 5, and the next thing you know, we have a more balanced starting 5 with a penetrator (Ellis) defensive minded players who can hit the 3 (GH/PG) a high post presence (West) and a Low post presence (Roy)

Off the bench we have Price, Jones, Wright, Hans, and Foster/Aumundson. We STILL have the cap flexibility to go after Kaman if desired. He's an expiring contract, so if we don;t like what we see, we can let him go after the season. Foster, Amundson and Price are coming off the books at the end of the yr, so we maintain our cap flexibility to re-sign Roy and G.Hill and potentially one more FA.

xBulletproof
02-28-2012, 02:53 PM
Jerry Stackhouse, 2000-01: 40.2 mpg, 35.2 USG%, 29.8 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 5.1 apg, 32 wins

Antawn Jamison, 2000-01: 41.4 mpg, 27.9 USG%, 24.9 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 2.0 apg, 17 wins

Ricky Davis, 2002-03: 39.6 mpg, 27.6 USG%, 20.6 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 5.5 apg, 17 wins

Jalen Rose, 2002-03: 40.9 mpg, 27.4 USG%, 22.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 4.8 apg, 30 wins

Monta Ellis, 2010-11: 40.3 mpg, 28.1 USG%, 24.1 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.6 apg, 36 wins

Of all these players, only Monta shot over 45% during that year. Jamison shot 44% but that was much less than he had previously over his career. All the other guys were between 40% and 41.3%.

Monta isn't in over his head shooting that much. He's still fairly efficient. The rest .... not so much.

The Sleeze
02-28-2012, 04:53 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=NBA&id=1495&line=172951&spln=1


Peter Vecsey of the New York Post writes that there are "renewed rumblings" about the Warriors "possibly" landing Brook Lopez.
Take this with an enormous grain of salt. Vecsey writes that it woudl be a multi-team deal involving Dwight Howard heading to New Jersey, while Lopez would move to Golden State and Monta Ellis would wind up in Orlando. There would have to be other pieces involved to make the money match up, but the Warriors are known to be in the market for a big man. Feb. 28 - 9:56 am et

LA_Confidential
02-28-2012, 04:56 PM
If they want a star for Monta then they shouldn't have a problem with taking Tyler. Dude is probably the biggest star in NCAA history. I mean he has his own fan base. :-p

Anthem
02-28-2012, 05:02 PM
Man, I know we all think they're overvaluing Ellis but you'd have to think they can do better than that.

CableKC
02-28-2012, 05:06 PM
I'd assume that Hedo would be going....and more assets going to Orlando. Monta+useless filler for Dwight just isn't good value for the Magic.

cdash
02-28-2012, 06:14 PM
From Hollinger's chat today:


Milo (Berkeley)

John, just what is Monta Ellis' trade value? As anyone who watches The Warriors can see the guys needs to be traded, awful defender, the exact kind of volume shooter they don't need right now, but I do wonder just who would take him, and what they'd be willing to offer. As a fan I just want to get the guys contract off the books, but what can we get back in a trade?
John Hollinger (2:08 PM)

They nearly got Andre Iguodala on draft day, which would have been a huge coup for Golden State and a disaster for the Sixers. The problem with Monta is that everybody except the Warriors knows he isn't a star, so it's difficult to concoct a trade that both sides would find fair.

Oof. Harsh.

Lance George
02-28-2012, 06:25 PM
John Hollinger (2:08 PM)

The problem with Monta is that everybody except the Warriors and several members of Pacers Digest knows he isn't a star

Fixed for accuracy.

CJ Jones
02-28-2012, 06:57 PM
Wasn't that Hollinger who said he thought Danny Granger was a terrible player? ;)

p.s. he might not have said it exactly like that but it was close.

edit: never mind it wasn't Hollinger... I forget who said that.

edit 2: It was Simmons. Either way you get the point.

CableKC
02-28-2012, 07:00 PM
Looking at the likely pieces in this "rumor"....this is what we have:

Orlando

Orlando sends out : Dwight ( $18.09 mil ) + Hedo + ( $11.016 mil )
Orlando receives : Monta ( $11 mil ) + ???? ( Players that have a total of AT LEAST $12.5 mil )
Outbound Salary : $29.106 mil
Minimal Inbound Salary that the Magic can take in : roughly $23.5mil

NOTE - Assuming that all the Magic send out is Dwight+Hedo, the Magic MUST receive Player(s) that total ( AT LEAST ) $12.5 mil in 2011-2012 Salary to make the trade work

*************************************
NJ
Nets send out: Brook ( $3.077 mil ) + Okur ( $10.89 mil ) + ???? ( Players that have a total of AT LEAST $10.54 mil )
Nets receive : Dwight ( $18.09 mil ) + Hedo + ( $11.016 mil )
Likely Outbound Salary : $23.5 mil
Likely Inbound Salary that the Nets will take in : $29.106 mil

NOTE - Assuming that the Nets take in both Dwight+Hedo AND they do not make any other trades to clear 2011-2012 Salary, the Nets MUST send out Player(s) that total ( AT LEAST ) $9.533mil in 2011-2012 Salary to make the trade work.

*************************************

GSW

GSW sends out : Monta ( $11 mil in 2011-2013 ) + ???? ( likely useless but Expiring filler )
GSW receives : Brook ( $3.076 mil ) + ???? ( Players that have a total of AT LEAST $5.925 mil )
Likely Outbound Salary - AT LEAST $11 mil
Likely inbound Salary - Roughly but AT LEAST $9 mil in 2011-2012 Salary.

NOTE - Assuming that the Warriors take in Brook and another Player, the Warriors MUST take on a Player(s) that total ( AT LEAST ) $5.925mil in 2011-2012 Salary to make the trade work.

*************************************

The question then becomes....what are the "missing Players" that would have to be included in order to make this Deal work. Although some of my calculations can be off....it's likely that the Nets would have to contact Teams under the Cap ( such as the Kings, Pacers and Cavs ) to make some additional trades to get some Trade Exceptions so that they can better absorb Dwight and Hedo's contracts.

Either way, I'd assume that the Nets and Magic have Bird's # on speed dial. I'm hoping that Bird's first response is, "What's in it for the Pacers?" with a likely asking price of a 1st round pick and no Contracts that would adversely affect the Team's ability to go after FAs in the offseason while fitting in to our needs.

xBulletproof
02-28-2012, 07:00 PM
Fixed for accuracy.

So being better than Collison makes someone a star? :laugh:

There are a lot of stars in the NBA apparently.

CJ Jones
02-28-2012, 07:08 PM
No one said Monta's a star right now. He certainly has the abilities to be one though IMO.

vnzla81
02-28-2012, 07:46 PM
Hollinger actually doesn't make any sense, in my case if I think a players is garbage I wouldn't think that he could fit or help anywhere, why in the F is he posting this?




Umar (Philadelphia)


Watching the Magic play it's very obvious they don't have a single player who can get his own shot. Why not go after Monta - his defensive shortcoming can be covered up by Howard. The current cast isn't getting it done and Bynum/Lopez aren't taking the Magic out of the first round.

John Hollinger (2:48 PM)


One of the few scenarios for Monta that I think might genuinely make sense. Only problem is what would Orlando send back -- they'd basically have to be willing to accept expirings and low-ceiling prospects (Ie Justin Harper, Daniel Orton). Also, the Monta-Howard tandem would only exist for about 45 days.





stanley (utah)


does monta ellis for all jefferson make sense for both teams?

John Hollinger (2:57 PM)


I could easily talk myself into that, yes, although I think Utah would want a couple more trinkets coming back to even things out.

cdash
02-28-2012, 07:58 PM
Hollinger actually doesn't make any sense, in my case if I think a players is garbage I wouldn't think that he could fit or help anywhere, why in the F is he posting this?

He never said Monta was garbage. Just that he's not a star.

Edit: I was honestly more surprised with the fan's question than Hollinger's answer. Just want his contract off the books? Seems harsh.

ksuttonjr76
02-28-2012, 08:03 PM
Personally, I hope that Orlando does the trade. They would be handing us the 3rd seed on a silver platter.

vnzla81
02-28-2012, 08:11 PM
This makes no sense.


Tim Kawakami: NBA source notes probably most sensible GSW trade is Ellis for Luol Deng & a few people on both teams like it. But Bulls won't do it. Twitter

vnzla81
02-28-2012, 08:12 PM
He never said Monta was garbage. Just that he's not a star.

Edit: I was honestly more surprised with the fan's question than Hollinger's answer. Just want his contract off the books? Seems harsh.

I've seen Hollinger trash Monta before, that's were my comment was coming from.

cdash
02-28-2012, 08:19 PM
This makes no sense.

Yeah, that would be a really stupid trade for Chicago. Can't imagine why they would do that. Monta+Rose is a bad combination imo.

Anthem
02-28-2012, 08:32 PM
I can't imagine anything I'd like more than for Chicago to move Deng for Monta.

ksuttonjr76
02-28-2012, 08:35 PM
This makes no sense.

It's a stupid trade. I see no logical reason for the Bulls to be even worried about a trade. The team as is could win a championship.

CableKC
02-28-2012, 08:39 PM
I don't get it either....what's the motivation to move Deng from the Bulls?

Who'd replace him in the SF rotation?

2minutes twoa
02-28-2012, 10:35 PM
After watching the game tonight, good luck getting a star for Monta. I definitely wouldn't give up Danny for him.

CableKC
02-29-2012, 02:57 AM
I think that Monta falls in the same class of Players that Granger is.....a borderline All-Star Player that is an above average Starter.

I translate the value of any borderline All-Star Player like Monta, Granger, Deng or Iggy to a "1st + Prospect + Expiring Contract". As to whose better....it's debatable as it's comparing apples to oranges as the value of the Player depends on the Team.