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View Full Version : The Pacers' weakest link: DC?



Shade
02-26-2012, 08:44 AM
C - Hibbert (All-Star)
PF - West (former All-Star)
SF - Granger (former All-Star)
SG - George (future All-Star?)
PG - Collison (...)

I love DC as a back-up, but to be a serious contender, I think we need to upgrade the 1.

yoadknux
02-26-2012, 08:58 AM
yeah, obviously
Collison is a defensive liability and doesn't have really good ways of scoring the ball or supreme court vision (So many times I've seen West in good position but not getting the ball, or Granger open outside, or Hibbert getting the ball 3-4 seconds after he should have gotten it)
Collison isn't a bad point guard, he's good enough for now, but if we really plan on being a top 4 team in the east we need a better point guard.

D-BONE
02-26-2012, 09:03 AM
I think DC's played pretty well this year. That said, I definitely agree if we're just talking starters. DC is still a young player, but I think his defense is what it will be, and that's honestly my biggest issue with him. I'd start somebody like Earl Watson over him based on that alone.

McKeyFan
02-26-2012, 09:13 AM
I figured this out last year without the help of any All-Star voting.

BringJackBack
02-26-2012, 10:24 AM
Yes.

BlueNGold
02-26-2012, 10:33 AM
Yes, he's the weakest link. But he's also better than any PG we've had since Jamaal Tinsley. Problem is, that's not saying much. The PG position has been very bad for the Pacers for a long time, and people have gotten used to mediocrity at the position. A player like Rajon Rondo would make a huge difference at that position. Probably as much as if we swapped Hibbert for Dwight Howard. That's just how important the PG position is on a team.

mattie
02-26-2012, 10:51 AM
I hope we go after Deron Williams in the off season. His stock has gone down in NJ, and if he doesn't end up with Dwight, he can't stay in NJ. He'd make us a legit title contender.

Mac_Daddy
02-26-2012, 10:58 AM
Weakest link? Probably. But every time I think we need something different, he puts together a pretty nice game.

idioteque
02-26-2012, 10:59 AM
DC is the weakest starter, but if DC is your weakest starter your team is in pretty good shape.

duke dynamite
02-26-2012, 11:44 AM
I'm cool with DC.

Anthem
02-26-2012, 11:58 AM
Long term? Maybe.

But I wouldn't say that he's been outplayed by Paul George so far this year. Paul George has all-star potential, sure, but he's not there yet. DC's been playing pretty well unless he's going up against Deron Williams.

PR07
02-26-2012, 12:24 PM
My biggest concern with DC is just his passing and court vision. I think to be truly an elite team, that side of his game is going to have to get better or we look elsewhere.

mattie
02-26-2012, 12:27 PM
I've never had a problem with DC. I think he's a good player. But talent wise, I like to compare our team to OKC and Miami. If we're ever going to compete with them, we have to raise our talent level by a lot. That's once again why I think a serious look at Deron Williams this summer (so long as Dwights whole scenario doesn't go as planned).

5 former/current all stars starting could possibly compete with Miami and OKC. That's what the Pacers need to be able to do.

And we'll still need DC. We'll still need him to come of the bench and score points for a non-scoring bench squad.

luis3ep
02-26-2012, 12:28 PM
he's a real good back up Point Guard. Nothing against the guy, he's solid but he lacks size and ball IQ.

PacerPenguins
02-26-2012, 12:33 PM
heres the problem.....hes shoot first pas second..... we need pass first shoot second

croz24
02-26-2012, 12:44 PM
Collison's been better than Granger this year, but of course Granger continues to get a pass after each and every 2/11, 4/16, etc performance. Seriously, people were calling out Collison after the Hornets game where he shot 8/11 for 18pts 8rebs 6asts and 1to. Even Paul George has been flat out awful at times, but because he's our wonderboy, nobody dares talk negatively about him. But after each and every Collison miss it's "we need 38yo no defense Nash to cure all of our problems".

cdash
02-26-2012, 01:11 PM
heres the problem.....hes shoot first pas second..... we need pass first shoot second

People say things like this all the time and I'm just not sure that is the case. How many true "pass first" point guards are there in the league? Nash, Rubio, Calderon, Rondo and CP3 are the ones that come to mind most readily. Plus, we need a scorer still. I have been a DC defender, but I agree that he is the weakest link in our starting five, and don't really think there's any debate over that. An upgrade would be nice, but I'm not sure how we do that without creating a hole somewhere else in the starting five.

pacers74
02-26-2012, 01:27 PM
I am good with DC starting,and being the weakest link starter. You can't have an all-star at every position.
Now that GH is back and AJ playing better, I would go with what we have at the point for the rest of the year.

peasouptexan7
02-26-2012, 01:28 PM
I'm fine with DC as of right now. Yes, he is the weakest starter, but I think a lot of this is just nitpicking. Could we use an upgrade? Sure, but at what cost?

ksuttonjr76
02-26-2012, 01:31 PM
Keeping it real...I just want a bigger PG period. I don't mind Collison overall. I wouldn't be actively shopping him, unless I decided to act on a trade rumor. However, he's the one player that I wouldn't give that much to trading him. Personally, I'm in the camp that wouldn't mind giving Stephenson the starting PG job to see how he fits. I swear, IMHO, he just seems to be the better passer with better court vision when comparing the two. If Lance works on his jumper this summer, I believe he could become consistent role player at the min.

Tyler would be a close second for me as far as trade bait goes.

danman
02-26-2012, 01:36 PM
If the Nets don't get Dwight, it's generally assumed that Deron will be a Mav.

That's just one of those things when you aren't a warm weather or big market team. One of those types of teams will always be able to match the money.

Collison is alright, and he's only 24. His best basketball is probably ahead.

Saras
02-26-2012, 02:04 PM
Kendrick Perkins ( ... )
Ibaka ( ... )
Durant ( all star )
Sefolosha ( ... )
Westbrook ( all star )

Good luck in playoffs OKC, having only 2 all stars/future all stars/old time all stars in starting 5.

Sorry to break your bubble, Miami Heat, you arent going anywhere with only 2 all stars in your starting five either, you either go with 5 all stars or rebuild!

PGisthefuture
02-26-2012, 02:08 PM
I like DC as a player and a person, but if we have a shot at Deron Williams if the Nets don't get Dwight we better take it. I'm hoping for some kind of move before the trade deadline even if it's not this... I'd be fine with DC for the rest of the season if we can get a guy like Kaman or something for basically nothing.

mattie
02-26-2012, 02:08 PM
Kendrick Perkins ( ... )
Ibaka ( ... )
Durant ( all star )
Sefolosha ( ... )
Westbrook ( all star )

Good luck in playoffs OKC, having only 2 all stars/future all stars/old time all stars in starting 5.

Sorry to break your bubble, Miami Heat, you arent going anywhere with only 2 all stars in your starting five either, you either go with 5 all stars or rebuild!

Ugh.

It's not a numbers game, it's just having the ability to play on the same court as OKC and Miami.

Miami has the best player in the NBA and the best two guard. They dominate. We have no one who can dominate. Deron at times can be a dominate player and if we added him, we'd be a complete team possibly being able to compete for a title.

By the way, Durant/Westbrook are two of the best players in the league, Ibaka is one of the best PF's in the league, and Harden is one of the best two guards in the league. That team is absolutely stacked.

Saras
02-26-2012, 02:12 PM
Ugh.

It's not a numbers game, it's just having the ability to play on the same court as OKC and Miami.

Miami has the best player in the NBA and the best two guard. They dominate. We have no one who can dominate. Deron at times can be a dominate player and if we added him, we'd be a complete team possibly being able to compete for a title.

By the way, Durant/Westbrook are two of the best players in the league, Ibaka is one of the best PF's in the league, and Harden is one of the best two guards in the league. That team is absolutely stacked.

Ah thanks for explaining!

Also Westbrook is not one of the best NBA players, second, Ibaka is nowhere near the to be elite PF, and Harden is good.

Also i was responding with an absurd comment to the absurd thread.

And dont dare to say we have noone dominating, we have Paul George who one day will be HOF'er.

Ace E.Anderson
02-26-2012, 02:15 PM
Ah thanks for explaining!

Also Westbrook is not one of the best NBA players, second, Ibaka is nowhere near the to be elite PF, and Harden is good.

Also i was responding with an absurd comment to the absurd thread.

And dont dare to say we have noone dominating, we have Paul George who one day will be HOF'er.

Lmao!!

BringJackBack
02-26-2012, 02:49 PM
My issue with DC is that we are 28th in the league in assists per game, and he can't run a successful pick and roll, drive and kick, or especially run a break properly like a normal starting point guard should be able to. We are a very good team, but assists per game is a huge issue for us (Which is a direct affect of our poor transition game), as well as point guard defense. Lack of point guard play, lack of a pure scorer, and lack of a complete bench is what is keeping us from being an elite team.

vnzla81
02-26-2012, 02:59 PM
DC is the weakest starter, but if DC is your weakest starter your team is in pretty good shape.

I have a huge problem with this line of thinking, I could probably agree with you if you told me that you don't mind our SG/SF/PF to be the weakest link but the point guard? to me point guard and centers are the most important pieces on any team, you have a weak PG or Center and unless you have Lebron/Dwade you are pretty much screwed.

cdash
02-26-2012, 03:08 PM
I have a huge problem with this line of thinking, I could probably agree with you if you told me that you don't mind our SG/SF/PF to be the weakest link but the point guard? to me point guard and centers are the most important pieces on any team, you have a weak PG or Center and unless you have Lebron/Dwade you are pretty much screwed.

21-12. We are definitely screwed.

McKeyFan
02-26-2012, 03:11 PM
Yes, he's the weakest link. But he's also better than any PG we've had since Jamaal Tinsley. Problem is, that's not saying much. The PG position has been very bad for the Pacers for a long time, and people have gotten used to mediocrity at the position. A player like Rajon Rondo would make a huge difference at that position. Probably as much as if we swapped Hibbert for Dwight Howard. That's just how important the PG position is on a team.

Agreed. But I'm of the opinion that serious improvement could come even without the likes of Rondo, DWill, etc.

Just a decent distributor who plays effective defense could make a big differences, and I think that player is obtainable right now.

McKeyFan
02-26-2012, 03:14 PM
DC is the weakest starter, but if DC is your weakest starter your team is in pretty good shape.
This sounds good and got a lot of Thanks. But it's not that simple.

What if D.C. was playing center? Well, sure, he's a good player, but the skills he brings to the position would be a serious weakness.

It's not as drastic as that, but D.C.'s skills are for shooting guard, not point guard. His being a weak link is indeed a serious problem.

vnzla81
02-26-2012, 03:14 PM
21-12. We are definitely screwed.

For the playoffs or competing for a championship? yeah, if you are happy with just having a good midle of the season record, then go ahead and celebrate by all means.

OlBlu
02-26-2012, 03:15 PM
Agreed. But I'm of the opinion that serious improvement could come even without the likes of Rondo, DWill, etc.

Just a decent distributor who plays effective defense could make a big differences, and I think that player is obtainable right now.

Well, T.J. Ford is probably available from San Antonio. But, he is getting more minutes there now than McBrick gets in Laker land......:cool:

cdash
02-26-2012, 03:19 PM
For the playoffs or competing for a championship? yeah, if you are happy with just having a good midle of the season record, then go ahead and celebrate by all means.

I'm not celebrating, but I'm not going to proclaim us "screwed' yet, either. Do I think we are a contender this year? No, far from it. But we have some young guys who still have room for improvement, cap space to make a deal or lure another star, and a great coaching staff. I think we are in a good place. DC is our weakest link, and I would like to see that position upgraded, but I think we can be successful with him being the basketball equivalent of a "game manager" QB.

Saras
02-26-2012, 03:25 PM
For the playoffs or competing for a championship? yeah, if you are happy with just having a good midle of the season record, then go ahead and celebrate by all means.

And you hope team goes from below average team to the one that competes for championship ? Even Miami needs time, i am not even starting about OKC or Philly.

Get real please.

McKeyFan
02-26-2012, 03:25 PM
I'm not celebrating, but I'm not going to proclaim us "screwed' yet, either. Do I think we are a contender this year? No, far from it. But we have some young guys who still have room for improvement, cap space to make a deal or lure another star, and a great coaching staff. I think we are in a good place. DC is our weakest link, and I would like to see that position upgraded, but I think we can be successful with him being the basketball equivalent of a "game manager" QB.

I appreciate the perspective you are bringing here. If you can't land an All-Star point guard right now, appreciate the good DC does bring to to table.

But my concern/frustration is what I mentioned a few posts earlier. I DO think we can find a decent point guard right now to upgrade the position. It doesn't have to be an All-Star. My two cents.

cdash
02-26-2012, 03:26 PM
I appreciate the perspective you are bringing here. If you can't land an All-Star point guard right now, appreciate the good DC does bring to to table.

But my concern/frustration is what I mentioned a few posts earlier. I DO think we can find a decent point guard right now to upgrade the position. It doesn't have to be an All-Star. My two cents.

Yeah, I meant to ask you about that--who do you have in mind? Calderon?

McKeyFan
02-26-2012, 03:30 PM
Yeah, I meant to ask you about that--who do you have in mind? Calderon?
I would consider Calderon if he were around 6-8 million. Maybe. His contract is just too nutty.

I'm thinking Felton, Hinrick, Andre Miller. Some people dismiss them (especially the first two) when I bring them up because they don't have Steve Nash offensive skills. But my point is DECENT distribution and GOOD defense would trump BAD distribution and BAD defense, which is what we currently have.

vnzla81
02-26-2012, 03:33 PM
I'm not celebrating, but I'm not going to proclaim us "screwed' yet, either. Do I think we are a contender this year? No, far from it. But we have some young guys who still have room for improvement, cap space to make a deal or lure another star, and a great coaching staff. I think we are in a good place. DC is our weakest link, and I would like to see that position upgraded, but I think we can be successful with him being the basketball equivalent of a "game manager" QB.

I said that "we are screwed" because I don't think we can make it to the second round without improving the PG position, the perfect scenario for me would be to get an starting PG and keep DC to let him destroy bench players and like you said, we have the money and pieces to do it.

cdash
02-26-2012, 03:38 PM
I said that "we are screwed" because I don't think we can make it to the second round without improving the PG position, the perfect scenario for me would be to get an starting PG and keep DC to let him destroy bench players and like you said, we have the money and pieces to do it.

I think we can get to the second round this year. I don't think we have a realistic shot of beating Miami or Chicago once we get there, but the experience is what we need. I just don't know who we can get for a cheap price that will upgrade the PG position. I don't think any of the guys McKey listed are upgrades, especially Hinrich (constantly hobbled) and Felton (he has been truly awful this year). You might be able to talk me into Andre Miller, but his reputation for being something of a diva in the locker room scares me a little bit, especially since our team has great chemistry right now.

speakout4
02-26-2012, 03:40 PM
We need to see if and how GH can improve the situation. Hill got hurt way too early in the season before the team got used to playing with one another. Sharing the PG position should help. I am not unhappy with what we have now. Consistency from some of the other "all stars" would go a long way

vnzla81
02-26-2012, 03:56 PM
I think we can get to the second round this year. I don't think we have a realistic shot of beating Miami or Chicago once we get there, but the experience is what we need. I just don't know who we can get for a cheap price that will upgrade the PG position. I don't think any of the guys McKey listed are upgrades, especially Hinrich (constantly hobbled) and Felton (he has been truly awful this year). You might be able to talk me into Andre Miller, but his reputation for being something of a diva in the locker room scares me a little bit, especially since our team has great chemistry right now.

Yeah I always like Hinrich but at this point I think GH kind of duplicates what Hinrich brings, I like Felton and like I said before in another thread I don't think you can judge him for what he is doing in Portland because that system is bad for point guards in general.

I like Andre Miller but like you said he is a bit of a diva, he wants to start not matter what in his next team and I don't like that type of attitute, to me the best choice at the moment is Calderon, great floor general that knows how to pass the ball and create for others, his defense is bad but not as bad as some people here think, him playing in a crappy team with not defenders makes him look worse than what he is, a first round pick plus some players should get the Raptors interested.

pwee31
02-26-2012, 04:00 PM
It's crazy how quickly things sour here. A year ago this board erupted that we traded Murphy and got Collison. His 2nd year with the team, and 3rd overall and we're looking for the next big thing.

Obviously if an upgrade is available, you pursue, but let's not down a guy that's help to solidify the point guard position that use to be EXTREMELY unstable

TheDon
02-26-2012, 04:09 PM
I've given up on the whole Deron Williams ever coming here idea no matter how much sense it would make for us. There are probably a good 4 or 5 times a game that I just groan because someone was standing WIDE OPEN and Darren missed it cause he's not looking up and concentrating on how he's going to beat the guy in front of him and where he's going to go with the ball. Rondo would be a perfect fit for us and he always seems to abuse Derrick Rose which would be another plus.

graphic-er
02-26-2012, 04:21 PM
I think the Pacers can beat the Heat and the Bulls as long as they have really good defenders at all 5 positions, and play unselfish ball. I like said earlier in the year. We are not going to out superstar or out talent the Heat or the Bulls. So we have to out defend them. You play lock down defense and you will always give yourself a chance to win at the end. Thats why i want to see GH starting at point or atleast finishing games.

OlBlu
02-26-2012, 04:33 PM
I think the Pacers can beat the Heat and the Bulls as long as they have really good defenders at all 5 positions, and play unselfish ball. I like said earlier in the year. We are not going to out superstar or out talent the Heat or the Bulls. So we have to out defend them. You play lock down defense and you will always give yourself a chance to win at the end. Thats why i want to see GH starting at point or atleast finishing games.

The Pacers can be the Bulls or the Heat in the playoffs? Oh, they might win one game. You need to serious come down to earth......:cool:

Anthem
02-26-2012, 06:22 PM
I said that "we are screwed" because I don't think we can make it to the second round without improving the PG position
The second round? I totally agree on the third round, but the second?

We're currently the #3 seed. It's reasonable to think we could end the year there (hardest part of our schedule is behind us). Which one of the bottom seeds do you think is going to win 4 of 7 against us when we've got home court?

I don't think we (yet) have the guns to take out Miami or Chicago, but against anyone else I like our chances.

vnzla81
02-26-2012, 06:33 PM
The second round? I totally agree on the third round, but the second?

We're currently the #3 seed. It's reasonable to think we could end the year there (hardest part of our schedule is behind us). Which one of the bottom seeds do you think is going to win 4 of 7 against us when we've got home court?

I don't think we (yet) have the guns to take out Miami or Chicago, but against anyone else I like our chances.

I guess we would have to wait and see what happens then, I still see us finishing 6th if we don't make a move.

sportfireman
02-26-2012, 06:54 PM
It's crazy how quickly things sour here. A year ago this board erupted that we traded Murphy and got Collison. His 2nd year with the team, and 3rd overall and we're looking for the next big thing.

Obviously if an upgrade is available, you pursue, but let's not down a guy that's help to solidify the point guard position that use to be EXTREMELY unstable

It was more about getting rid of Murphy for me..... I like Collison but honestly as a backup.

Shade
02-26-2012, 07:01 PM
I've given up on the whole Deron Williams ever coming here idea no matter how much sense it would make for us. There are probably a good 4 or 5 times a game that I just groan because someone was standing WIDE OPEN and Darren missed it cause he's not looking up and concentrating on how he's going to beat the guy in front of him and where he's going to go with the ball. Rondo would be a perfect fit for us and he always seems to abuse Derrick Rose which would be another plus.

NASH

Hibbert
02-26-2012, 07:01 PM
I have a huge problem with this line of thinking, I could probably agree with you if you told me that you don't mind our SG/SF/PF to be the weakest link but the point guard? to me point guard and centers are the most important pieces on any team, you have a weak PG or Center and unless you have Lebron/Dwade you are pretty much screwed.

Say that to the Lakers.

vnzla81
02-26-2012, 07:08 PM
Say that to the Lakers.

The Lakers actually make my point, they suck right now because they don't have a competent PG.

Will Galen
02-26-2012, 07:20 PM
Weakest link? Probably. But every time I think we need something different, he puts together a pretty nice game.

So you're our problem!

You're not thinking enough! If you were a good Pacer fan you would sit down before every game and think, "We need something different."

Thus the problem would be solved.

1984
02-26-2012, 07:21 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wTUbae3Qs_o/TgdOw-IWGgI/AAAAAAAAArk/ncmpL04MsUo/s1600/1010373.jpg

adamscb
02-26-2012, 07:37 PM
one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is the draft. why not acquiring a pick and taking kendall marshall? he looks like a true 'floor general'. granted he doesn't have much of an offensive game, but he's pass-first.

Hibbert
02-26-2012, 07:42 PM
The Lakers actually make my point, they suck right now because they don't have a competent PG.

Who's talking about right now? When Phil Jackson was coach, obviously they ran the triangle which doesn't even require a PG and they won have many? that proves your point is wrong.

cdash
02-26-2012, 07:53 PM
one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is the draft. why not acquiring a pick and taking kendall marshall? he looks like a true 'floor general'. granted he doesn't have much of an offensive game, but he's pass-first.

I think there are a couple of reasons for that. One is that we aren't looking at a high draft pick. Putting your hopes into getting a franchise point guard with a pick in the low-mid 20s probably isn't wise. On top of that, this isn't the draft to take a point guard. There are a few that will likely be there in our range (such as Marshall), but they aren't likely to be immediate upgrades over DC. It will probably take some time for these guys to develop.

imawhat
02-26-2012, 08:22 PM
heres the problem.....hes shoot first pas second..... we need pass first shoot second

I would rather DC shoot first and pass second. DC's one of the better, most efficient scorers on the roster. He should be playing to his strengths.


It's crazy how quickly things sour here. A year ago this board erupted that we traded Murphy and got Collison. His 2nd year with the team, and 3rd overall and we're looking for the next big thing.

A lot of us knew we were getting a carpenter with DC. His stats in NO were inflated because he was playing in the Chris Paul system, so I understand how people saw those numbers from afar and are disappointed now. That's the problem with expectations.

Like it or not, our team's biggest weakness is its lack of a player that creates easy shots for others. I've never seen a player suddenly develop that ability, not in all the years I've watched basketball. We have one player on the roster that can do it, but he hasn't earned minutes and he's not being used in that role.

Historically that player plays point guard, and right now DC, George Hill and AJ are being asked to play that role. So if we're looking at starters, then yes DC's our weakest link.

DC is what he is. I criticize his effort on defense more than anything. You wouldn't recognize him if you saw him play defense at UCLA, that's how different he is now. We've seen him play good defense in spurts earlier this season, so now definitely looks like an effort issue.

Whatever the case may be, I recognize Darren's limits, and still root for him to improve his effort in other areas. I'm glad he's on the team, but we need a significant upgrade.

vnzla81
02-26-2012, 08:23 PM
Who's talking about right now? When Phil Jackson was coach, obviously they ran the triangle which doesn't even require a PG and they won have many? that proves your point is wrong.

So we just need to run the triangle and then we are good......

McKeyFan
02-26-2012, 08:26 PM
Who's talking about right now? When Phil Jackson was coach, obviously they ran the triangle which doesn't even require a PG and they won have many? that proves your point is wrong.

Isn't this obvious? We don't have a Kobe or Lebron for the point to guard to hand it to and then stand on the perimeter and watch.

Us normal, regular teams need a point guard who can pass.

Hibbert
02-26-2012, 08:40 PM
Is that the point? The topic brought up by vnzla was that your point guard cannot be your weakest link and win in the playoffs. The Lakers have proven this wrong time and time again. So did the Jackson Bulls.

mattie
02-26-2012, 08:43 PM
It's crazy how quickly things sour here. A year ago this board erupted that we traded Murphy and got Collison. His 2nd year with the team, and 3rd overall and we're looking for the next big thing.

Obviously if an upgrade is available, you pursue, but let's not down a guy that's help to solidify the point guard position that use to be EXTREMELY unstable

The board would have erupted if we had traded Murphy for a used urinal cake.

I don't think people are soured. We just recognize what thei team needs to compete for a championship.

I've defended DC plenty of times before. I think he's a smart player, he can get to the rim and score, he can nail that jump shot out to 20 feet. I like his game. But he has limitations, and as the weakest link in a starting line of all strong players, his position is probably the one that needs upgraded. If the Pacers are ever going to truly compete for a championship that is.

Nice thing is, off the bench DC would be an absolutely phenomenal piece for this team. I think he'll thrive in that role, scoring points and eventually maybe even getting him a higher pay day than if he were to continue to start as is.

OlBlu
02-26-2012, 08:48 PM
This team is years away from competing for a championship. This year is the first time for a long time that they are even relevent. Championships are won by teams who have superstars..... we don't have one much less the two it usually takes to win at that level. :cool:

McKeyFan
02-26-2012, 08:56 PM
Is that the point? The topic brought up by vnzla was that your point guard cannot be your weakest link and win in the playoffs. The Lakers have proven this wrong time and time again. So did the Jackson Bulls.
No, that's not the point.

LA_Confidential
02-26-2012, 09:14 PM
Collison's been better than Granger this year, but of course Granger continues to get a pass after each and every 2/11, 4/16, etc performance. Seriously, people were calling out Collison after the Hornets game where he shot 8/11 for 18pts 8rebs 6asts and 1to. Even Paul George has been flat out awful at times, but because he's our wonderboy, nobody dares talk negatively about him. But after each and every Collison miss it's "we need 38yo no defense Nash to cure all of our problems".

In all honesty, Granger gets a pass (with some of us) because its his job to be a "volume scorer". PG gets a pass because he's extremely raw but still give glimpses of potential stardom.

In terms of the DC vs Nash thing, who's better? I thought so.

Nash was better when you went to bed last night, Nash was better when you woke up this morning and he'll still be better when you go back to bed tonight.

spazzxb
02-26-2012, 09:16 PM
This team is years away from competing for a championship. This year is the first time for a long time that they are even relevent. Championships are won by teams who have superstars..... we don't have one much less the two it usually takes to win at that level. :cool:

Still campaigning for darksider of the year? Interesting fact, Swype auto corrects darksider as satisfied. DWill(1 player) could get us a trophy.(in my opinion.)

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

OlBlu
02-26-2012, 09:44 PM
Still campaigning for darksider of the year? Interesting fact, Swype auto corrects darksider as satisfied. DWill(1 player) could get us a trophy.(in my opinion.)

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

No, it wouldn't be enough.... But it would be a good start. You would have to give up most of the team as it is to get him and he would not play for the Pacers regardless of how much money they threw at him.... Such is the plight of small market teams. That is why not many bring in a championship...:cool:

ilive4sports
02-26-2012, 10:23 PM
When did DWill ever say he wants to play in a big market? I don't remember him ever saying it, but people always say thats what he wants.

cdash
02-26-2012, 10:24 PM
When did DWill ever say he wants to play in a big market? I don't remember him ever saying it, but people always say thats what he wants.

Not necessarily a big market, but Dallas is his hometown and he can pair with at least one star who has shown the ability to win a title (Dirk, obv). I think that makes them the heavy favorites.

speakout4
02-26-2012, 10:27 PM
When did DWill ever say he wants to play in a big market? I don't remember him ever saying it, but people always say thats what he wants.
Yes lots of star players choose to sign to play in small market teams especially with low fan turnout. Why would he ever say something like that?

OlBlu
02-26-2012, 10:51 PM
Not necessarily a big market, but Dallas is his hometown and he can pair with at least one star who has shown the ability to win a title (Dirk, obv). I think that makes them the heavy favorites.

Dallas is a small market team? :cool:

cdash
02-26-2012, 10:55 PM
Dallas is a small market team? :cool:

You need to motor your *** down there. Dallas is very small. Smallest NBA city I do believe.

docpaul
02-26-2012, 11:01 PM
I continue to believe that this team starts truly competing once we have a player that can feed the low post. We have not seen that for years.

It's the missing piece of Vogels smashmouth old school strategy.

mikeyism
02-26-2012, 11:17 PM
DC is doing some things well right now. 6th among PGs in assist/turnover ratio, career high in Pure Point, career 37% 3PT. But to me, he has 'role player' written all over him, and he's basically been the same player for 3 seasons now. He works on D but he can't stop anybody; he has zero strength and we often have to bench him or cross-match against scoring PGs. On offense, he isn't great at creating shots off the bounce and has a slow release.

I'd be willing to pay top dollar for DWill, or possibly Nash in a 2-year rental deal. If luck would have it, maybe Rondo or Parker would be made available if either Boston or the Spurs went into rebuilding mode. Other than that, I can't see us landing anyone (e.g. Curry, Wall) without losing PG, DG or Roy.

Would you sign Dwill for $16-18M/yr? Or take Kyle Lowry or Lawson, for DC and draft picks?

LA_Confidential
02-26-2012, 11:27 PM
DC is doing some things well right now. 6th among PGs in assist/turnover ratio, career high in Pure Point, career 37% 3PT. But to me, he has 'role player' written all over him, and he's basically been the same player for 3 seasons now. He works on D but he can't stop anybody; he has zero strength and we often have to bench him or cross-match against scoring PGs. On offense, he isn't great at creating shots off the bounce and has a slow release.

I'd be willing to pay top dollar for DWill, or possibly Nash in a 2-year rental deal. If luck would have it, maybe Rondo or Parker would be made available if either Boston or the Spurs went into rebuilding mode. Other than that, I can't see us landing anyone (e.g. Curry, Wall) without losing PG, DG or Roy.

Would you sign Dwill for $16-18M/yr? Or take Kyle Lowry or Lawson, for DC and draft picks?

I'll take D Will for 17mil, Alex.

Hibbert
02-26-2012, 11:47 PM
No, that's not the point.

Vnzla I would love for once you fight your own battles but guess it's not possible when random people chime in with their know all even though they weren't the one being questioned. You didn't make a point Mckey, in fact you didn't even make sense. I quoted Vnzla and my comment was directed at him, you don't even know what your talking about.

OlBlu
02-27-2012, 12:14 AM
You need to motor your *** down there. Dallas is very small. Smallest NBA city I do believe.

What nonsense. I have been there...... Have you? How New Orleans, Sacremento and others........:cool:

cdash
02-27-2012, 12:16 AM
What nonsense. I have been there...... Have you? How New Orleans, Sacremento and others........:cool:

Nope. New Orleans hosts the biggest party in the world how can that place be small? Sacramento? It's the capital of the biggest state in the country! Huge place! What nonsense!

Anthem
02-27-2012, 12:31 AM
I guess we would have to wait and see what happens then, I still see us finishing 6th if we don't make a move.
Still? I thought you were projecting us at 7 or 8.

cdash
02-27-2012, 12:32 AM
Still? I thought you were projecting us at 7 or 8.

How dare you question someone who is "always right?"

vnzla81
02-27-2012, 12:36 AM
Still? I thought you were projecting us at 7 or 8.

7th or 6th was my prediction, I'm leaning towards 6th now.


Edit: Here is the thread so you don't come with an smart a** comment:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=69163&highlight=Predictions

vnzla81
02-27-2012, 12:38 AM
How dare you question someone who is "always right?"

Well all you have to do is find what I've been wrong about, I'll give you Turner and a healthy Foster last year, after that nothing.

Edit: Is not that I like to pat myself on the back but I think is fair for me to tell people that they were wrong for jumping over me for my comments, I get destroyed by people for predicting or commenting on things that are not popular just like the DC stuff and now almost everybody is on board.

Kemo
02-27-2012, 12:43 AM
My only real problem with Darren lies with one of 2 things or both..

Either it's his court vision and/or his inability to react on instinct..

It irks me to no end, when I see Roy or someone else open and rolling to the basket, and DC simply misses them every single time..
I don't know if it's because he can't see them , or if he is unsure and declines the open pass because of that unsurity...

I can't tell you how many times Roy has been open as one can be under the basket, and DC passes it to someone on the perimeter..

I can see why Roy or West would get flustered a bit, if they have, cause I would be..

Other than that, DC has done a good job and improved alot over the last year.. specifically in knocking down the 3 ..

I see no reason why he couldn't keep improving .. So I will give him the benefit of the doubt..
This time next season, if he hasn't grown with the team and improved in the areas he should be, then I will be more inclined to say we need to think about possibly upgrading...

cdash
02-27-2012, 12:43 AM
Well all you have to do is find what I've been wrong about, I'll give you Turner and a healthy Foster last year, after that nothing.

Nope, nothing. You are truly a visionary. We should all take your word as gospel. I'm converted. Shower me with your wisdom.

Richard_Skull
02-27-2012, 12:53 AM
C - Hibbert (All-Star)
PF - West (former All-Star)
SF - Granger (former All-Star)
SG - George (future All-Star?)
PG - Collison (...)

I love DC as a back-up, but to be a serious contender, I think we need to upgrade the 1.

Thanked just because I love your avatar. I think DC is alright as the starter. How many teams have starting fives who have all been to the allstar game?

Hicks
02-27-2012, 12:59 AM
Can we cool it with the verging-on-hostile amounts of sarcasm? Good grief.

adamscb
02-27-2012, 01:53 AM
Can we cool it with the verging-on-hostile amounts of sarcasm? Good grief.
i think we should let it play itself out

http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/9/8/2/8/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif

Kemo
02-27-2012, 02:03 AM
Still campaigning for darksider of the year?

OlBlu should change his name to OlYeller so a sunshiner mod can put him out of our misery...


LMAO!

I kid .. I kid ... but people DO need to lighten up some and enjoy watching this team grow..

I came into this season , with the thought in mind that THIS was the season that we (the Pacers) put it all together as far as gaining chemistry and growing together as a cohesive unit..

As big of a sunshiner as I am with this team, I didn't expect us to get it together and have the record we have at the midway point in the season.. I hoped, but wasn't expecting it ..


I think we are quite abit ahead of schedule in the development of our team..
When we see things like the 5 game losses, to me that is nothing more than small bumps in the road called growing pains..

I am sure we will see at least a few more sequences this season where we lose 3 or 4 games in a row.. It's part of the growing process of a young team that is "figuring it out" ...

I say , let's enjoy the ride... We have the opportunity to watch this team grow into becoming extremely good right in front of our eyes..

Why muddle it with a bunch of crap, picking a new whipping boy/scapegoat every week being so negative all the time?

ilive4sports
02-27-2012, 02:39 AM
Yes lots of star players choose to sign to play in small market teams especially with low fan turnout. Why would he ever say something like that?

Well Miami isn't a big market really. They signed some stars down there. Indy was able to keep JO here. San Antonio kept Tim Duncan.

Yes, stars like big markets, every player does actually, its not just star players. But I'm just saying, I havent seen DWill go and say that he wants to play in a big market. I think he wants to play on a good team more than anything. And if the option is a good team in a small market vs a good one in a big market, of course the big market is gonna win.

If Dallas can get the money right, they have the best chance at him. I think they need to sign Dwight though to convince him. Same thing with New Jersey. But for us, if we continue this season strong, and make some good noise in the playoffs, we can be an attractive place for Deron.

Lets not forget, David West just chose Indiana over Boston. Deron is coming from a terrible team, he isn't getting any younger and his best chance to win is now. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I think we do have a chance at signing him. We have a damn good team, a team that has youth and players his age that can win now. I think the guy wants to win.

There are few places that will be able to offer him max money. Even fewer that are very good teams. If he can't team up with Dwight, Indiana becomes a strong candidate for signing Deron.

spazzxb
02-27-2012, 05:12 AM
OlBlu should change his name to OlYeller so a sunshiner mod can put him out of our misery...


LMAO!

I kid .. I kid ... but people DO need to lighten up some and enjoy watching this team grow..

I came into this season , with the thought in mind that THIS was the season that we (the Pacers) put it all together as far as gaining chemistry and growing together as a cohesive unit..

As big of a sunshiner as I am with this team, I didn't expect us to get it together and have the record we have at the midway point in the season.. I hoped, but wasn't expecting it ..


I think we are quite abit ahead of schedule in the development of our team..
When we see things like the 5 game losses, to me that is nothing more than small bumps in the road called growing pains..

I am sure we will see at least a few more sequences this season where we lose 3 or 4 games in a row.. It's part of the growing process of a young team that is "figuring it out" ...

I say , let's enjoy the ride... We have the opportunity to watch this team grow into becoming extremely good right in front of our eyes..

Why muddle it with a bunch of crap, picking a new whipping boy/scapegoat every week being so negative all the time?

I hope we don't have a few 3-4 game loosing streaks. I agree with us being ahead of schedule, This team is only going to get better.

Back on topic: If DC can't guard anyone on the floor he shouldn't be on the floor. I like him on this team, however I would prefer he only play when he isn't a liability. DC never should have started the last time we played New Jersey. I don't like the idea that he has to start, even when there are obvious matchup problems. I hope the formulaic approach to rotations is a byproduct of growing a young team and keeping things simple. As this team grows together I would hope that we could be a bit more versatile. Personally, I hope george Hill starts the next time we play Chicago.

mattie
02-27-2012, 06:02 AM
It really is the truth. Despite the negative attitudes of everyone around here... if Dwight isn't able to end up in NJ, Indiana becomes a massive favorite to sign Deron Williams. And it'd be an incredibly smart move. He'd make us instant title contenders. I really do hope it happens. Deron Williams wants to win.. he's a tough player that cares abou one thing and one thing only: winning.

BringJackBack
02-27-2012, 06:35 AM
I don't want to shove my perspective down anyone's throat, but I think that we absolutely need an upgrade at point guard. If we had defense, smarts, and passing at the 1, all of our starters would become significantly better players. Especially Paul George, he is always open in transition.

McKeyFan
02-27-2012, 07:58 AM
Vnzla I would love for once you fight your own battles but guess it's not possible when random people chime in with their know all even though they weren't the one being questioned. You didn't make a point Mckey, in fact you didn't even make sense. I quoted Vnzla and my comment was directed at him, you don't even know what your talking about.

Yeah, he's always running away from battles.

:laugh:

Pacer Fan
02-27-2012, 10:16 AM
The weakest link is the inconsistency of the whole team and a bad bench at the SF and C position. I'd like to see a legit starting SG added and Paul come off the bench with Hill.

Justin Tyme
02-27-2012, 01:37 PM
You need to motor your *** down there. Dallas is very small. Smallest NBA city I do believe.



I don't know if what you said is true, but I loved your re-tort.

Justin Tyme
02-27-2012, 01:50 PM
[QUOTE=ilive4sports;1383500]

I havent seen DWill go and say that he wants to play in a big market. /QUOTE]



He made his name in Utah, and let's face it Utah isn't a big market either. Supposedly, when he got traded he was happy in Utah. I could see him not being opposed to playing in Indy. Nice young team who would be a real contender if he was part of the team.

Dirk's career is about over, and Dallas has little young talent for the future. Indy would be a better home for the long term.

Justin Tyme
02-27-2012, 01:55 PM
The weakest link is the inconsistency of the whole team and a bad bench at the SF and C position. I'd like to see a legit starting SG added and Paul come off the bench with Hill.

So you want to demote Paul George to the bench, but keep DC as the starting PG. That is what you're saying, right?

ilive4sports
02-27-2012, 02:02 PM
The weakest link is the inconsistency of the whole team and a bad bench at the SF and C position. I'd like to see a legit starting SG added and Paul come off the bench with Hill.

PG is averaging 12.1ppg, 2.2apg, 5.5 rpg, shoting 43.6% and 40% from three. On a team that plays as a team and wins as one, how much more production are we going to get at the SG spot compared to what PG is giving us? How is Paul not a legit starting SG? Who can we realistically get that would be an upgrade that would be worth giving up pieces for? PG is 15th among SGs in scoring, 3rd in rebounding, 15th in assists, 4th in steals, and 4th in blocks.

It looks like to be right now is an average offensive shooting guard and an above average defensive shooting guard. And the kid is only getting better as the season goes on. Why take minutes away from him?

Nuntius
02-27-2012, 02:04 PM
heres the problem.....hes shoot first pas second..... we need pass first shoot second

DC has been shot first in all of his career but this year he really looks to pass and set up his teammates before shooting.

You can blame his D, you can blame his court vision (and you'd have several valid points) but the one thing that no one can do is to blame the guy for not trying.

idioteque is right. If DC is your weakest link then the team is on a terrific shape. Sometimes, I really do not know what your expectations are.

ilive4sports
02-27-2012, 02:10 PM
[QUOTE=ilive4sports;1383500]

I havent seen DWill go and say that he wants to play in a big market. /QUOTE]



He made his name in Utah, and let's face it Utah isn't a big market either. Supposedly, when he got traded he was happy in Utah. I could see him not being opposed to playing in Indy. Nice young team who would be a real contender if he was part of the team.

Dirk's career is about over, and Dallas has little young talent for the future. Indy would be a better home for the long term.

Exactly. The problems he had in Utah weren't with playing in a small city, it was with Sloan. I dont think he asked to be traded either. Williams isn't a young guy who is looking to party from my understanding either. He is married and has a few kids I believe.

If Dallas doesn't get Dwight, I think Indiana has a strong chance at getting him.

Cubs231721
02-27-2012, 02:21 PM
The question becomes-even if Collison is the weakest link, where is the money going to come from to replace him? Bird seems to have made clear that they aren't going to get real close to the luxury tax. Adding Deron Williams as a free agent, signing Roy, and letting go of Hill will put the Pacers at around 65 million already for only 11 players. That's the number Bird said would be about their salary cap.

The next year after that, the Pacers would be at 46-48 million already (not counting whatever backup big man that would have needed to be signed the year before) with West, Hansborough, Collison, and Jones as free agents. And the year after that is the one where Granger and George are free agents.

The Pacers cap situation is already tricky if they want to keep their current core. Adding a max free agent seems unlikely. And if it isn't a a star like Williams, will they be a big upgrade over Collison? They might have different strengths than Collison (they could find a pass first defense guy instead of a scorer who takes care of the basketball) but I'm not sure who would be both cheap enough and give enough of an upgrade to be worth it.

Nuntius
02-27-2012, 04:36 PM
I get destroyed by people for predicting or commenting on things that are not popular just like the DC stuff and now almost everybody is on board.

By the way, how the DC stuff was not popular?

Poor guy is DC's scapegoat this year. I don't know how the situation was before I was a member of this site but after I started frequenting these boards the guy is certainly one of the scapegoats.

spazzxb
02-27-2012, 04:43 PM
You need to motor your *** down there. Dallas is very small. Smallest NBA city I do believe.

Dallas is odd. I don't know there City population, however there are a few highly populated towns all clustered together around Dallas. Fort Worth, Irving, ect. From a marketing project I helped with, I can tell you an odd fact; Plano Texas has this highest number of semi-wealthy middle aged woman in this country. You can't judge the Mavericks fan base simply by Dallas, even there airport is Dallas/Fort Worth.

spazzxb
02-27-2012, 04:49 PM
[QUOTE=Cubs231721;1383744]The question becomes-even if Collison is the weakest link, where is the money going to come from to replace him? Bird seems to have made clear that they aren't going to get real close to the luxury tax. /QUOTE]

Simon has shown a willingness to pay the Luxury tax before, pre brawl. While it was a hardline while rebuilding the team, I expect its a little different if we have a legit chance to compete for a title. Simon knew this team wasn't going to be competitive for a couple years when Bird took over.

ilive4sports
02-27-2012, 05:04 PM
Dallas is odd. I don't know there City population, however there are a few highly populated towns all clustered together around Dallas. Fort Worth, Irving, ect. From a marketing project I helped with, I can tell you an odd fact; Plano Texas has this highest number of semi-wealthy middle aged woman in this country. You can't judge the Mavericks fan base simply by Dallas, even there airport is Dallas/Fort Worth.

Well it looks like I'm moving to Plano!

Ace E.Anderson
02-27-2012, 05:53 PM
I think when it comes to DC and the pacers, it's not necessarily about finding a HUGE upgrade (although that would be nice) as much as it's about finding someone who suits our personnel/roster better.

When it comes to the point guard position, you have a long list of really good players at the top (Paul, Rose, Williams, Westbrook, Rondo, Irving, Parker, Nash)

Young/up-coming PG's that include (Holliday, Lowry, Lawson, Conley, Jennings, Curry, Rubio, (maybe) Lin, and Wall)

Then after that you have serviceable (Nelson, Calderon, Jack, Felton, Augustin, Harris)

Your projects: (Knight, Teague)

And Your PG's who aren't PG's: Evans, Ellis

I'd like to think DC lands somewhere on the low end of the young up and comers, and the high end of serviceable. But that's just my opinion. In all honesty though, how much of a difference is their in talent between Conley, Holliday and DC? Probably not very much. But because their talents fit a bigger need on our team (Point Guard defense) we often see those players in a better light.

Bottom line, If you don't have one of the superstar point guards out of that first group, you have to find someone who fits your roster the best.

cdash
02-27-2012, 06:20 PM
Dallas is odd. I don't know there City population, however there are a few highly populated towns all clustered together around Dallas. Fort Worth, Irving, ect. From a marketing project I helped with, I can tell you an odd fact; Plano Texas has this highest number of semi-wealthy middle aged woman in this country. You can't judge the Mavericks fan base simply by Dallas, even there airport is Dallas/Fort Worth.

For the record, I was very much joking with that comment. The Dallas/Fort Worth market is the 5th biggest television market in the country. It's just that you don't hear it classified as a "big market" as much as you do LA, NY, Chicago. Hell, Philadelphia has one of the 6 or so biggest markets in the league and I don't know if anyone would consider the 76ers a big market team.

cdash
02-27-2012, 06:20 PM
Can we cool it with the verging-on-hostile amounts of sarcasm? Good grief.

I refuse to acquiesce to your request.

OlBlu
02-27-2012, 06:54 PM
For the record, I was very much joking with that comment. The Dallas/Fort Worth market is the 5th biggest television market in the country. It's just that you don't hear it classified as a "big market" as much as you do LA, NY, Chicago. Hell, Philadelphia has one of the 6 or so biggest markets in the league and I don't know if anyone would consider the 76ers a big market team.

Of course Philadelphia is a "big market". :cool:

ilive4sports
02-27-2012, 07:02 PM
Of course Philadelphia is a "big market". :cool:

In the NBA, not really. I think there are 4 clear big market teams in the NBA, LA, Boston, New York and Chicago. The rest aren't the same. Philadelphia is a big city, but I wouldn't say they are a big market team like the other 4 I listed.

Pacer Fan
02-27-2012, 07:08 PM
So you want to demote Paul George to the bench, but keep DC as the starting PG. That is what you're saying, right? 10-4


PG is averaging 12.1ppg, 2.2apg, 5.5 rpg, shoting 43.6% and 40% from three. On a team that plays as a team and wins as one, how much more production are we going to get at the SG spot compared to what PG is giving us? How is Paul not a legit starting SG? Who can we realistically get that would be an upgrade that would be worth giving up pieces for? PG is 15th among SGs in scoring, 3rd in rebounding, 15th in assists, 4th in steals, and 4th in blocks.

It looks like to be right now is an average offensive shooting guard and an above average defensive shooting guard. And the kid is only getting better as the season goes on. Why take minutes away from him?

Yeah, I watch him play every game multiple times, I know what he is. Bottom line is he is inconsistent and the best upgrade that is obtainable is A legit SG. This would allow Paul to come in off the bench and play behind the SG and SF positions. He would be able to play hard and be the primary scorer off the bench. If he gets 3 fouls in 5 minutes it won't kill the team. Hill would be rotating between PG and SG. This would solidify a solid rotation not just for the season but for the playoffs. 4 guys playing PG, SG and SF, that's a lot of minutes for each.

Paul is young and in the next year he can take Danny's spot and Danny can be traded for a legit PG as Collison's contract will then be coming up. That's if Paul can improve enough to take Danny's spot. The jury is still out. Maybe we get lucky and Collison has a self intervention or we draft a solid PG and just continue to beast the NBA with that rotation.

ilive4sports
02-27-2012, 07:33 PM
10-4



Yeah, I watch him play every game multiple times, I know what he is. Bottom line is he is inconsistent and the best upgrade that is obtainable is A legit SG. This would allow Paul to come in off the bench and play behind the SG and SF positions. He would be able to play hard and be the primary scorer off the bench. If he gets 3 fouls in 5 minutes it won't kill the team. Hill would be rotating between PG and SG. This would solidify a solid rotation not just for the season but for the playoffs. 4 guys playing PG, SG and SF, that's a lot of minutes for each.

Paul is young and in the next year he can take Danny's spot and Danny can be traded for a legit PG as Collison's contract will then be coming up. That's if Paul can improve enough to take Danny's spot. The jury is still out. Maybe we get lucky and Collison has a self intervention or we draft a solid PG and just continue to beast the NBA with that rotation.

So who do we get? How many legit options are there to upgrade the SG spot and actually make this team better where we don't sacrifice too much to upgrade a spot for only a few months because you admit by next season PG will be ready to take Danny's spot?

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/sort/avgPoints/position/shooting-guards

Look, there is a list of the SG's. I'm looking at that list and not coming up with many names that would really work here in Indy.

What production do you expect to get out of the SG spot? The guy is at best the 4th option on offense, sometimes the 5th behind DC. How much production are you expecting out of your 4th/5th option?

And he is a great defender. Whoever we bring in would most likely be a worse defender than PG. Which creates problems as he makes up for a lot of DC's deficiencies on the defensive end. He is also great for ball movement and might be the best passer in the starting unit.

Paul George is not the guy that needs to be getting less playing time.

Pacer Fan
02-27-2012, 08:28 PM
So who do we get? How many legit options are there to upgrade the SG spot and actually make this team better where we don't sacrifice too much to upgrade a spot for only a few months because you admit by next season PG will be ready to take Danny's spot?

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/sort/avgPoints/position/shooting-guards

Look, there is a list of the SG's. I'm looking at that list and not coming up with many names that would really work here in Indy.

What production do you expect to get out of the SG spot? The guy is at best the 4th option on offense, sometimes the 5th behind DC. How much production are you expecting out of your 4th/5th option?

And he is a great defender. Whoever we bring in would most likely be a worse defender than PG. Which creates problems as he makes up for a lot of DC's deficiencies on the defensive end. He is also great for ball movement and might be the best passer in the starting unit.

Paul George is not the guy that needs to be getting less playing time.

I haven't looked at your list yet, but I have been eye balling multiple lists for months. I can say with out a doubt, there are many more SG's around the league that may be had for little compared to an upgrade in a PG position. To get an upgrade at the PG position, like Rondo, DWill, Parker, ect, is next to impossible. A PG like Sessions, Felton, Harris isn't much of an upgrade if any. Nash is just to old and would not be in the future plans and we would be back to square one to soon. Calderon and Nash would be a liability on what the Pacers are trying to do.

I don't care at this point if Paul starts or not. This would be decided when the new SG is added to the team. It would depend on the abilities and where the best fit would be. I just know that I don't want to see Jones, Lance or Price in a playoff game! I can tolerate Collison and Hill at the point for now!

cdash
02-27-2012, 08:34 PM
I refuse to acquiesce to your request.

To clarify this, I took this opportunity to quote my favorite Pirates line. Not to be an outright dick to Hicks like it would seem to anyone who didn't get it (which is probably a lot of you).

ilive4sports
02-27-2012, 08:52 PM
I haven't looked at your list yet, but I have been eye balling multiple lists for months. I can say with out a doubt, there are many more SG's around the league that may be had for little compared to an upgrade in a PG position. To get an upgrade at the PG position, like Rondo, DWill, Parker, ect, is next to impossible. A PG like Sessions, Felton, Harris isn't much of an upgrade if any. Nash is just to old and would not be in the future plans and we would be back to square one to soon. Calderon and Nash would be a liability on what the Pacers are trying to do.

I don't care at this point if Paul starts or not. This would be decided when the new SG is added to the team. It would depend on the abilities and where the best fit would be. I just know that I don't want to see Jones, Lance or Price in a playoff game! I can tolerate Collison and Hill at the point for now!

I don't see an option to really upgrade the SG spot, well one that makes sense without taking steps back in other positions. The only SG I can see us getting that would be an upgrade is Ray Allen, who wont come cheap and it doesn't fix the weak spot of the team (which isn't Jones/Price/Lance getting minutes).

PG is our weak spot. I see more options at bringing in a better PG than a SG, especially since DC isn't good on defense. I would love to bring in Andre Miller. Good defender, pass first PG, veteran who knows what he's doing, tough as nails. He would improve the team more than any SG we can realistically can get.

OlBlu
02-27-2012, 08:53 PM
In the NBA, not really. I think there are 4 clear big market teams in the NBA, LA, Boston, New York and Chicago. The rest aren't the same. Philadelphia is a big city, but I wouldn't say they are a big market team like the other 4 I listed.

What are you babbling about? How many household in the Philly area? Check it out.......:cool:

ilive4sports
02-27-2012, 08:58 PM
What are you babbling about? How many household in the Philly area? Check it out.......:cool:

I used to live 2 hours away from Philly and visit the city often, I know how big it is. BUT in the NBA, Philly is not a big market team. Those teams are the Lakers, Celtics, Knicks and Bulls. Would you consider Houston a big market team? Its even larger than Philly, but no one considers it a big market when it comes to the NBA.

OlBlu
02-27-2012, 09:01 PM
I used to live 2 hours away from Philly and visit the city often, I know how big it is. BUT in the NBA, Philly is not a big market team. Those teams are the Lakers, Celtics, Knicks and Bulls. Would you consider Houston a big market team? Its even larger than Philly, but no one considers it a big market when it comes to the NBA.

Of course Houston is a big market team. So, your statement is not correct. I consider a big market team because it is. The revenue stream they have available says too. The Clippers are also a big market team because they share LA. Big market means how many households are there for the television market. It doesn't mean teams that dominate the NBA.....:cool:

OlBlu
02-27-2012, 09:06 PM
I used to live 2 hours away from Philly and visit the city often, I know how big it is. BUT in the NBA, Philly is not a big market team. Those teams are the Lakers, Celtics, Knicks and Bulls. Would you consider Houston a big market team? Its even larger than Philly, but no one considers it a big market when it comes to the NBA.

Here is a list of the 100 biggest markets in the USA....

Note that Philly is 4th and Dallas/Fort Worth is 5th. Indy is 25th... This takes the surrounding area into consideration.

Rank Metropolitan Market Regions / Areas
1 New York
2 Los Angeles
3 Chicago
4 Philadelphia
5 Dallas-Ft. Worth
6 San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose
7 Boston
8 Atlanta
9 Washington, DC
10 Houston
11 Detroit
12 Phoenix
13 Tampa-St. Petersburg
14 Seattle-Tacoma
15 Minneapolis-St. Paul
16 Miami-Ft.Lauderdale
17 Cleveland-Akron
18 Denver
19 Orlando-Daytona Beach-Melbourne
20 Sacramento-Stockton-Modesto
21 St. Louis
22 Portland, OR
23 Pittsburgh
24 Charlotte, NC
25 Indianapolis
26 Baltimore
27 Raleigh-Durham
28 San Diego
29 Nashville
30 Hartford-New Haven
31 Kansas City
32 Columbus, OH
33 Salt Lake City
34 Cincinnati
35 Milwaukee
36 Greenville-Spartanburg-Asheville-Anderson
37 San Antonio
38 West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce
39 Grand Rapids-Kalamazoo-Battle Creek
40 Birmingham
41 Harrisburg-Lancaster-Lebanon-York
42 Las Vegas
43 Norfolk-Portsmouth-Newport News
44 Albuquerque-Santa Fe
45 Oklahoma City
46 Greensboro-High Point-Winston-Salem
47 Jacksonville, FL
48 Memphis
49 Austin
50 Louisville
51 Buffalo
52 Providence-New Bedford
53 New Orleans
54 Wilkes Barre-Scranton
55 Fresno-Visalia
56 Little Rock-Pine Bluff
57 Albany-Schenectady-Troy
58 Richmond-Petersburg
59 Knoxville
60 Mobile-Pensacola
61 Tulsa
62 Ft. Myers-Naples
63 Lexington
64 Dayton
65 Charleston-Huntington
66 Flint-Saginaw-Bay City
67 Roanoke-Lynchburg
68 Tucson
69 Wichita-Hutchinson
70 Green Bay-Appleton
71 Des Moines-Ames
72 Honolulu
73 Toledo
74 Springfield, MO
75 Spokane
76 Omaha
77 Portland-Auburn
78 Paducah-Cape Girardeau-Harrisburg
79 Columbia, SC
80 Rochester, NY
81 Syracuse
82 Huntsville-Decatur
83 Champaign-Springfield-Decatur
84 Shreveport
85 Madison
86 Chattanooga
87 Harlingen-Weslaco-Brownsville-McAllen
88 Cedar Rapids-Waterloo-Iowa City-Dubuque
89 South Bend-Elkhart
90 Jackson, MS
91 Colorado Springs-Pueblo
92 Tri-Cities, TN-NC-VA
93 Burlington-Plattsburgh
94 Waco-Temple-Bryan
95 Baton Rouge
96 Savannah
97 Davenport-Rock Island-Moline
98 El Paso
99 Charleston, SC
100 Ft. Smith-Fayetteville-Springdale-Rogers


Markets 100+

ilive4sports
02-27-2012, 09:17 PM
I'm not just talking about population. I'm talking about big markets in the NBA. The places where free agents want to go play because its a "big market" The Lakers, Celtics, Knicks and Bulls are the teams that benefit from that. You don't hear guys saying they want to play in a big market and sign with the 76ers or the Rockets.

OlBlu
02-27-2012, 09:21 PM
I'm not just talking about population. I'm talking about big markets in the NBA. The places where free agents want to go play because its a "big market" The Lakers, Celtics, Knicks and Bulls are the teams that benefit from that. You don't hear guys saying they want to play in a big market and sign with the 76ers or the Rockets.

That isn't big market.... That means those teams dominate the NBA. It has nothing to do with "market". Your use of terminology is extremely faulty. I showed you the big market teams and Philly is one of them. That doesn't mean that it is a prime destination for free agents because it is not a dominant team. New Jersey (soon to be Brooklyn) will be a true big market team....:cool:

ilive4sports
02-27-2012, 10:43 PM
That isn't big market.... That means those teams dominate the NBA. It has nothing to do with "market". Your use of terminology is extremely faulty. I showed you the big market teams and Philly is one of them. That doesn't mean that it is a prime destination for free agents because it is not a dominant team. New Jersey (soon to be Brooklyn) will be a true big market team....:cool:

Playing for the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls or Knicks gets you way more popularity than playing for the Sixers or Rockets. They are the biggest market teams. Philly certainly isn't a small market, but its no where near the lines of the other four. In the world of the NBA, the popularity of the team determines their market, not the size of the city they play in. Boston is listed below Philly on your list, but which team has the bigger market when it comes to the NBA? Boston. Why? Because they reach far outside of Boston. Playing for the Celtics means you are going to be a popular player. Look at the size of the fan bases, not the population of the city. Philly isn't a basketball town. Football, baseball and hockey all take center stage before basketball does.

You didnt show me the big market teams, you showed me the most populated cities. There is a difference.

Hibbert
02-27-2012, 10:51 PM
Here is a list of the 100 biggest markets in the USA....

Note that Philly is 4th and Dallas/Fort Worth is 5th. Indy is 25th... This takes the surrounding area into consideration.

Rank Metropolitan Market Regions / Areas
1 New York
2 Los Angeles
3 Chicago
4 Philadelphia
5 Dallas-Ft. Worth
6 San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose
7 Boston
8 Atlanta
9 Washington, DC
10 Houston
11 Detroit
12 Phoenix
13 Tampa-St. Petersburg
14 Seattle-Tacoma
15 Minneapolis-St. Paul
16 Miami-Ft.Lauderdale
17 Cleveland-Akron
18 Denver
19 Orlando-Daytona Beach-Melbourne
20 Sacramento-Stockton-Modesto
21 St. Louis
22 Portland, OR
23 Pittsburgh
24 Charlotte, NC
25 Indianapolis
26 Baltimore
27 Raleigh-Durham
28 San Diego
29 Nashville
30 Hartford-New Haven
31 Kansas City
32 Columbus, OH
33 Salt Lake City
34 Cincinnati
35 Milwaukee
36 Greenville-Spartanburg-Asheville-Anderson
37 San Antonio
38 West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce
39 Grand Rapids-Kalamazoo-Battle Creek
40 Birmingham
41 Harrisburg-Lancaster-Lebanon-York
42 Las Vegas
43 Norfolk-Portsmouth-Newport News
44 Albuquerque-Santa Fe
45 Oklahoma City
46 Greensboro-High Point-Winston-Salem
47 Jacksonville, FL
48 Memphis
49 Austin
50 Louisville
51 Buffalo
52 Providence-New Bedford
53 New Orleans
54 Wilkes Barre-Scranton
55 Fresno-Visalia
56 Little Rock-Pine Bluff
57 Albany-Schenectady-Troy
58 Richmond-Petersburg
59 Knoxville
60 Mobile-Pensacola
61 Tulsa
62 Ft. Myers-Naples
63 Lexington
64 Dayton
65 Charleston-Huntington
66 Flint-Saginaw-Bay City
67 Roanoke-Lynchburg
68 Tucson
69 Wichita-Hutchinson
70 Green Bay-Appleton
71 Des Moines-Ames
72 Honolulu
73 Toledo
74 Springfield, MO
75 Spokane
76 Omaha
77 Portland-Auburn
78 Paducah-Cape Girardeau-Harrisburg
79 Columbia, SC
80 Rochester, NY
81 Syracuse
82 Huntsville-Decatur
83 Champaign-Springfield-Decatur
84 Shreveport
85 Madison
86 Chattanooga
87 Harlingen-Weslaco-Brownsville-McAllen
88 Cedar Rapids-Waterloo-Iowa City-Dubuque
89 South Bend-Elkhart
90 Jackson, MS
91 Colorado Springs-Pueblo
92 Tri-Cities, TN-NC-VA
93 Burlington-Plattsburgh
94 Waco-Temple-Bryan
95 Baton Rouge
96 Savannah
97 Davenport-Rock Island-Moline
98 El Paso
99 Charleston, SC
100 Ft. Smith-Fayetteville-Springdale-Rogers


Markets 100+

Of course Mckeys ignorant a thanked this retarded post about city population, has nothing to do with markets in the NBA and makes your argument look even worse for you now.

OlBlu
02-27-2012, 10:52 PM
Playing for the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls or Knicks gets you way more popularity than playing for the Sixers or Rockets. They are the biggest market teams. Philly certainly isn't a small market, but its no where near the lines of the other four. In the world of the NBA, the popularity of the team determines their market, not the size of the city they play in. Boston is listed below Philly on your list, but which team has the bigger market when it comes to the NBA? Boston. Why? Because they reach far outside of Boston. Playing for the Celtics means you are going to be a popular player. Look at the size of the fan bases, not the population of the city. Philly isn't a basketball town. Football, baseball and hockey all take center stage before basketball does.

You didnt show me the big market teams, you showed me the most populated cities. There is a difference.

Read it again, that is the list of the 100 biggest markets. You don't know what you are talking about..... You have "market" confused with something else. You need a check up from neck up.......:cool:

Anthem
02-27-2012, 11:02 PM
7th or 6th was my prediction, I'm leaning towards 6th now.
I seriously thought you projected us to be a below-.500 team. Did I imagine that?

Anthem
02-27-2012, 11:05 PM
Of course Mckeys ignorant a thanked this retarded post about city population, has nothing to do with markets in the NBA and makes your argument look even worse for you now.
Yeah, you really showed him.

Seriously, man, I can hardly understand what you're saying here. Might be worth a re-write.

Hibbert
02-27-2012, 11:07 PM
Yeah, you really showed him.

Seriously, man, I can hardly understand what you're saying here. Might be worth a re-write.

Was I talking to you? Might want to stop brown nosing.

ilive4sports
02-27-2012, 11:12 PM
Read it again, that is the list of the 100 biggest markets. You don't know what you are talking about..... You have "market" confused with something else. You need a check up from neck up.......:cool:

Sure those are the top 100 tv markets. BUT we arent talking about TV markets, we are talking about the NBA markets. They are two different things.

The Celtics, which play in a smaller TV market than the 76ers not only make $20 million a year in their TV contract, but also get a 20% stake in CSN NE while the Sixers are getting $13 million a year. So which team is playing in the bigger market?

The Celtics are the 4th most valuable team in the league, the Sixers are the 17th. The size of the television markets don't determine the size of NBA Markets. This is why the Celtics are a bigger market team than the Sixers.

Anthem
02-27-2012, 11:15 PM
Was I talking to you? Might want to stop brown nosing.
:laugh: Who is there for me to brown-nose to? I was the fourth guy on the forum, behind Hicks, Shade, and Jose.

I'm also the resident grammar nazi, in case you didn't know.

Graham Mernatsi
02-27-2012, 11:16 PM
:laugh: Who is there for me to brown-nosing to? I was the fourth guy on the forum, behind Hicks, Shade, and Jose.

I'm also the resident grammar nazi, in case you didn't know.
Oh no you did not.

:arrgh:

OlBlu
02-27-2012, 11:22 PM
Sure those are the top 100 tv markets. BUT we arent talking about TV markets, we are talking about the NBA markets. They are two different things.

The Celtics, which play in a smaller TV market than the 76ers not only make $20 million a year in their TV contract, but also get a 20% stake in CSN NE while the Sixers are getting $13 million a year. So which team is playing in the bigger market?

The Celtics are the 4th most valuable team in the league, the Sixers are the 17th. The size of the television markets don't determine the size of NBA Markets. This is why the Celtics are a bigger market team than the Sixers.

Once again, you don't know what you are talking about. You are using the term "market" but you describe something entirely different.... What you are discussing has nothing to do with "market". You make no sense at all as Hicks tried to tell you.... Popularity and "market" are two very different things but you apparently just do not understand that. By the way, I didn't show you the 100 biggest cities, I showed you the 100 biggest "markets." That includes people living in the surrounding communities........:cool:

cdash
02-27-2012, 11:33 PM
Once again, you don't know what you are talking about. You are using the term "market" but you describe something entirely different.... What you are discussing has nothing to do with "market". You make no sense at all as Hicks tried to tell you.... Popularity and "market" are two very different things but you apparently just do not understand that. By the way, I didn't show you the 100 biggest cities, I showed you the 100 biggest "markets." That includes people living in the surrounding communities........:cool:

I'm going to jump in here, because technically, you are right. But the term "big market" is tossed around in a different context in NBA circles. I think for NBA purposes, when analysts or announcers call a team a "big market" team, it means LA, New York, and Chicago. That includes both LA teams, and both NY area teams (yes, the Nets are included). In NBA terms, those are the top tier. The next tier would be something like Boston, Miami, Dallas, Houston, Golden State. The tier after that would probably consist of: Washington, Atlanta, Phoenix, Denver, Toronto, Orlando, Detroit and Philadelphia. Sadly, the bottom tier would be: Indiana, Milwaukee, Charlotte, Philadelphia, Memphis, New Orleans, Utah, Minnesota, Portland, Sacramento. That is obviously just my quick stab at it, and you can make arguments that some markets should be higher or lower, but in general, I think that's how it is broken down in the NBA.

Anthem
02-27-2012, 11:36 PM
Oh no you did not.

:arrgh:
I think this was the goal:

Of course MckeyFan is ignorant and thanked this retarded post about city population, even though it has nothing to do with markets in the NBA. It makes your argument look even worse for you now.

See? I can be constructive.


Graham, I think I can speak for all of us when I say it's hard to believe you've been posting on here since 2006. Six years? Where does the time go?

=====

EDIT: I'm still chuckling. That "I'm also the resident grammar nazi" line is going to have me smiling all night. :laugh:

OlBlu
02-27-2012, 11:43 PM
:laugh: Who is there for me to brown-nose to? I was the fourth guy on the forum, behind Hicks, Shade, and Jose.

I'm also the resident grammar nazi, in case you didn't know.

You would be in big trouble on the Indianapols Star Pacers blog. I see nothing wrong with your statement about grammar nazi. I called a couple of people there Pacers Nazis and I was harrassed forever and I am kicked off of that blog every time I post no matter how innocent the post. Those idiots accused me of comparing them to the Nazis in Germany. I don't think that is what means in a modern contest but they couldn't understand that. There are a lot of people here who have comprehension problems too..... When I said Pacers Nazi, I meant they were overzealous and that they had no respect for opinions that differed from theirs and I held a lot of those opinions as I do here.........:cool:

Pacer Fan
02-28-2012, 09:39 AM
I don't see an option to really upgrade the SG spot, well one that makes sense without taking steps back in other positions. The only SG I can see us getting that would be an upgrade is Ray Allen, who wont come cheap and it doesn't fix the weak spot of the team (which isn't Jones/Price/Lance getting minutes).

PG is our weak spot. I see more options at bringing in a better PG than a SG, especially since DC isn't good on defense. I would love to bring in Andre Miller. Good defender, pass first PG, veteran who knows what he's doing, tough as nails. He would improve the team more than any SG we can realistically can get.

I see a lot of trade options for a sg. We need a scorer and Lance, Price, and Jones don't get the job done. I'm not sure why you even say they aren't the weak spot. They are the weak spot because they are getting minutes. I guess Larry doesn't know basketball either because he has been going after Mayo, Crawford and even looked at Redd. A lot of you say that DC is a defensive liability and that's not true in the position of PG's. Very few PG's play good defense and most PG gets lost off of picks. If we do need a hand on the defense side of the ball we do have the luxury of Hill.

We need a scorer at the 2 spot, period! We also need a quality back up center, which is far more important then a pg in the middle of a shortened season.

BPump33
02-28-2012, 10:13 AM
I'll be the guy wearing the DC2 jersey in Area55 tonight. I like Darren and hope he continues to improve.

Mackey_Rose
02-28-2012, 10:20 AM
You would be in big trouble on the Indianapols Star Pacers blog. I see nothing wrong with your statement about grammar nazi. I called a couple of people there Pacers Nazis and I was harrassed forever and I am kicked off of that blog every time I post no matter how innocent the post. Those idiots accused me of comparing them to the Nazis in Germany. I don't think that is what means in a modern contest but they couldn't understand that. There are a lot of people here who have comprehension problems too..... When I said Pacers Nazi, I meant they were overzealous and that they had no respect for opinions that differed from theirs and I held a lot of those opinions as I do here.........:cool:

Jesus Blu, you've listed at least half a dozen different reasons why the Fourth Reich kicked you off their boards.

Common denominator?

BPump33
02-28-2012, 10:21 AM
Jesus Blu, you've listed at least half a dozen different reasons why the Fourth Reich kicked you off their boards.

Common denominator?

I think we should open up a thread just for Mackey Rose vs. Ol' Blu. :cool:

OlBlu
02-28-2012, 11:00 AM
Jesus Blu, you've listed at least half a dozen different reasons why the Fourth Reich kicked you off their boards.

Common denominator?

Not boards, just the Pacers board. I can post on the Colts board there with no problem. It is what it is and the Nazi business but a twist in their knickers....:cool:

Since86
02-28-2012, 11:21 AM
Having differences over on the RATS forums probably isn't a very good reason to try to call someone out, considering that's how this board was created. Hicks created this place, because of all the crap that went down over there. :twocents:

McKeyFan
02-28-2012, 06:16 PM
Of course Mckeys ignorant a thanked this retarded post about city population, has nothing to do with markets in the NBA and makes your argument look even worse for you now.

Apology accepted.

BlueNGold
03-01-2012, 11:04 PM
I think this was the goal:

Of course MckeyFan is ignorant and thanked this retarded post about city population, even though it has nothing to do with markets in the NBA. It makes your argument look even worse for you now.

See? I can be constructive.


Graham, I think I can speak for all of us when I say it's hard to believe you've been posting on here since 2006. Six years? Where does the time go?

=====

EDIT: I'm still chuckling. That "I'm also the resident grammar nazi" line is going to have me smiling all night. :laugh:

It's a small internet, Graham. Seriously, I didn't know you guys were so very close.

http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=16966

Anthem
03-03-2012, 12:47 AM
It's a small internet, Graham. Seriously, I didn't know you guys were so very close.

http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=16966
Holy cow! You are the man. I bow down before the strength of your google-fu. Well done!

It's technically not a secret, but it usually takes new people a while to figure out. I've never had somebody pull that trick on me, though.

I figured I showed too many cards this time, but I really didn't expect that.

McKeyFan
03-03-2012, 08:28 AM
It's a small internet, Graham. Seriously, I didn't know you guys were so very close.

http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=16966

I'm not sure whether to laugh or to pull my underwear back up.

Anthem
03-03-2012, 09:05 AM
I'm not sure whether to laugh or to pull my underwear back up.
Seriously, May 2006. The Internet never forgets.

1984
03-04-2012, 05:51 PM
Darren Collison ranks #92 in turnovers, he has the fewest turnovers per game amongst starting point guards, 1.8 T.O. per game. While he may be the "weakest link" on the starting line-up, I believe that this only boasts the strength of our line up.

Darren Collison has the assets required to win.