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Anthem
02-24-2012, 11:34 PM
If you were the Pacers GM, and the Knicks called and offered a straight up swap of Granger for C.Anthony, would you do it?

Dece
02-24-2012, 11:35 PM
Yes.

skyfire
02-24-2012, 11:37 PM
I don't think Melo would be happy playing in Indy after seeing how hard he pushed to get to NY in the first place.

Hypnotiq
02-24-2012, 11:37 PM
hell yes

Anthem
02-24-2012, 11:37 PM
This was going to be a question in the Knicks thread, but I wanted a poll.

Personally, I don't like Anthony. Denver was better without him, and so far the same is true of the Knicks. Heck of a player, but not a winner.

If New York had Granger instead, you guys think they'd be a worse team?

BringJackBack
02-24-2012, 11:43 PM
I'll take Melo over Danny. Danny's a good two-way player, but Melo is everything that our offense needs, other than a point guard...

CableKC
02-24-2012, 11:43 PM
If I were to simply compare them as SFs...while ignoring contract/salary....MarshMelo is a much better scorer and ( I think ) a better creator on the offensive end then Granger is. If anything, he's a much better "Robin" then Granger is.

However, I think that he needs a very solid supporting Cast that can complement him....like last year when they had a solid PG like Billups running the point. Overall, I think that Melo is the better SF...but wouldn't be a good fit for this Team.

CompACE
02-24-2012, 11:47 PM
If this was just a straight up trade I'd take Melo and then trade him in 90 days.

Nuntius
02-24-2012, 11:47 PM
Hell, no. Look, I'm not saying that Melo is not the best player of the two. Because he is. However, I would NOT like him in my team. He is not a player I could ever root for.

Magic P
02-24-2012, 11:47 PM
Melo is ten times better than Granger. Some people on this board wouldn't Granger for Jordan in his prime.

Melo/Hibbert is way more dangerous than Granger/Hibbert.

xIndyFan
02-24-2012, 11:48 PM
melo is a better player skill wise, but i would not trade him for danny. melo is too much of an individual player. ball stopper. plus his attitude has really soured. no thanx

Nuntius
02-24-2012, 11:51 PM
Some people on this board wouldn't Granger for Jordan in his prime.


Untrue. Jordan had no problem of passing the ball sometimes when the game was on the line and was a good teammate.

ballism
02-24-2012, 11:51 PM
a nobrainer.

btw, there'd be so much tension between Melo and MSG. Imagine a playoff series with Melo coming back. Flashbacks yet? All that's left is Reggie teaching him the choke sign.

vnzla81
02-24-2012, 11:55 PM
Is this real life?

spreedom
02-24-2012, 11:58 PM
In a vacuum, Melo is a more dynamic player because of his ability to score in bunches. But in a team environment I'd rather have Danny, even if he can disappear at times. I'd prefer the guy that has shown that he can step back when his shot isn't falling over the guy who stubbornly forces the action even when he's having an off night.

And as has been mentioned, it's no coincidence that the Nuggets and Knicks were and are better without him.

Jessen
02-24-2012, 11:58 PM
No. Sorry, but I've never been a fan of the way Melo has carried himself. I don't see him being a good fit for this team. Danny is a class act, Melo... errrr, not so much. As tempting as it is from a sheer talent standpoint, I would pass.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 12:00 AM
I'm no Granger fan boy, but Carmello doesn't help you. He would be one of the better one-on-one players and he's strong as an ox, but his game doesn't mesh with other players.

Derek2k3
02-25-2012, 12:01 AM
All things considered, I can see why you would do it.

However, one player doesn't make a team. Melo is great, but he needs a coach who will control him. It's concerning that Denver got better when he left, and NY was worse. I know, players changed etc, but a team will live and die by Melo. We think it's bad when Danny goes 4/14? Wait until Melo goes 4/24 in a game that is close.

Personally, I like what is being built here. I don't see a player like Melo helping much, based on the fact that he will single handedly take over, for better or worse. The Pacers are better when David/Roy are creating space for DC/PG/Danny, and worse when DC/PG/Danny are trying to create.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 12:02 AM
In a vacuum, Melo is a more dynamic player because of his ability to score in bunches. But in a team environment I'd rather have Danny, even if he can disappear at times. I'd prefer the guy that has shown that he can step back when his shot isn't falling over the guy who stubbornly forces the action even when he's having an off night.

And as has been mentioned, it's no coincidence that the Nuggets and Knicks were and are better without him.

Wow. Nice post. I did not read that prior to posting, but I have similar thoughts. I agree his game doesn't help the team concept. He's like the SF version of Allen Iverson, but not quite so startlingly bad.

vnzla81
02-25-2012, 12:03 AM
I'm no Granger fan boy, but Carmello doesn't help you. He would be one of the better one-on-one players and he's strong as an ox, but his game doesn't mesh with other players.

Actually Melo fits the Pacers system better and Danny fits the NY system better.

Sandman21
02-25-2012, 12:04 AM
No because I'm going to enjoy watching the Knicks implode with him back.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 12:05 AM
Actually Melo fits the Pacers system better and Danny fits the NY better.

How so. At least for the Pacers, I don't see Melo helping win games. I see him dominating the ball. We might as well bring back Al Harrington.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 12:06 AM
No because I'm going to enjoy watching the Knicks implode with him back.

This. Jeremy Lin's star just started to grow dim. Too bad for him he has to play with Melo who makes everyone around him worse. He's like the anti-JKidd.

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 12:09 AM
Is this real life?

Sometimes I wonder why you don't support the Wizards. But they have so much talent..

vnzla81
02-25-2012, 12:10 AM
How so. At least for the Pacers, I don't see Melo helping win games. I see him dominating the ball. We might as well bring back Al Harrington.

Melo is probably the best one on one player in the NBA, the Pacers offense is usually one on one offense, he could be perfect here and Danny in NY could be perfect for his ability to shoot the 3 and open the floor for Lin and Amare.

MrHale
02-25-2012, 12:11 AM
In a vacuum, Melo is a more dynamic player because of his ability to score in bunches. But in a team environment I'd rather have Danny, even if he can disappear at times. I'd prefer the guy that has shown that he can step back when his shot isn't falling over the guy who stubbornly forces the action even when he's having an off night.

And as has been mentioned, it's no coincidence that the Nuggets and Knicks were and are better without him.

so when does danny step back when his shot isnt falling? sorry maybe ur right but i dont see it, guy is shooting sub 40 and takes 15 shots a game. hes been pretty much ice cold all season with a few here and there games where he goes off. yes i do realize melo is shooting sub 40 also but i feel like this whole forum is way to biased. melo is the much better player, weve been complaining we dont have a shot creator yet we wouldnt even trade granger for melo straight up? idk i dont get it.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 12:13 AM
Melo is probably the best one on one player in the NBA, the Pacers offense is usually one on one offense, he could be perfect here and Danny in NY could be perfect for his ability to shoot the 3 and open the floor for Lin and Amare.

I don't care much about NY or thinking how they might benefit from Granger.

What I do know is, if you want to win games you have to share the ball. Melo isn't going to do that and that's why, with all his talent, he's not going to help more than Granger (who you and I know is terribly overrated).

But sure, his 1-on-1 is off the charts good. So was Allen Iverson's. I wouldn't want him on the Pacers either because his game does not help team play. Why Detroit picked him up after all those years of obvious ball-hogging, well, IDK.

xBulletproof
02-25-2012, 12:19 AM
Wow, it wasn't that long ago I said Carmelo wasn't much better than Granger and I got skewered for it here.

If Carmelo knew that the defensive side of the court was even there, I would be down.

vnzla81
02-25-2012, 12:19 AM
I don't care much about NY or thinking how they might benefit from Granger.

What I do know is, if you want to win games you have to share the ball. Melo isn't going to do that and that's why, with all his talent, he's not going to help more than Granger (who you and I know is terribly overrated).

But sure, his 1-on-1 is off the charts good. So was Allen Iverson's. I wouldn't want him on the Pacers either because his game does not help team play. Why Detroit picked him up after all those years of obvious ball-hogging, well, IDK.

I don't know if anybody knows this but Melo shares the ball more often than Danny, 4.1 APG for Melo to 1.8 APG for Danny.

Hibbert
02-25-2012, 12:21 AM
I don't care much about NY or thinking how they might benefit from Granger.

What I do know is, if you want to win games you have to share the ball. Melo isn't going to do that and that's why, with all his talent, he's not going to help more than Granger (who you and I know is terribly overrated).

But sure, his 1-on-1 is off the charts good. So was Allen Iverson's. I wouldn't want him on the Pacers either because his game does not help team play. Why Detroit picked him up after all those years of obvious ball-hogging, well, IDK.

Because they let Joe Dumb-arse have too much control.

CJ Jones
02-25-2012, 12:21 AM
Granger's not making his teammates better either, so your not losing anything there with a Melo/Granger swap.

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 12:22 AM
so when does danny step back when his shot isnt falling? sorry maybe ur right but i dont see it, guy is shooting sub 40 and takes 15 shots a game. hes been pretty much ice cold all season with a few here and there games where he goes off. yes i do realize melo is shooting sub 40 also but i feel like this whole forum is way to biased. melo is the much better player, weve been complaining we dont have a shot creator yet we wouldnt even trade granger for melo straight up? idk i dont get it.

Melo has taken less 19.0 FGAs per game (per 36 minutes) in his first two seasons (in which he was taking 17.6 in his 1st and 17.0 in his second). Danny took 19.0 FGAs per game only once in his career. In his All Star year. He has taken more than 17.0 one more year (the one after his All Star year). All his other seasons are below 16.5 FGAs per game.

You are right that some people here could very well be biased. And, frankly, I'm biased as well. But I'm not biased in favor of Granger. I'm biased against Melo.

Seriously, give me another stupidly good deal for us and I'd be willing to do it (despite hating to part with our core). One guy proposed an idea in the lines of Danny Granger for James Harden and Kendrick Perkins. I would jump on that immediately.

Kuq_e_Zi91
02-25-2012, 12:24 AM
What's our biggest weakness? Other than point guard, we need someone who can get their own shot, especially in crunch time. That's Melo.

But looking at his contract, he's not worth it. It's 20, 22, and 24 mil in the next three seasons. On most nights we can make up his contributions on offense by distributing the load, and we probably lose some on the defensive end. Yes, even though some posters think Danny Granger is the worst defender in the NBA.

MrHale
02-25-2012, 12:26 AM
I don't know if anybody knows this but Melo shares the ball more often than Danny, 4.1 APG for Melo to 1.8 APG for Danny.

i dont think anyone realizes that stat, i mean just go look at the game logs unless i counted wrong, danny has had 16 games where he either has 1ast or below. carmelo has had 3 games with 1ast or below. and just go look at the recent games and its been 8 games since danny has gotten more then 1ast. thats actually quite sad if you really think about it, especially when your the main guy on your team

Sollozzo
02-25-2012, 12:29 AM
This. Jeremy Lin's star just started to grow dim. Too bad for him he has to play with Melo who makes everyone around him worse. He's like the anti-JKidd.


Let's wait a bit before we say that. They lost to the Heat after beating the Hawks the night before. The Heat are easily the best team in the league right now, IMHO. They are definitely the best in the East.

xBulletproof
02-25-2012, 12:30 AM
so when does danny step back when his shot isnt falling? sorry maybe ur right but i dont see it, guy is shooting sub 40 and takes 15 shots a game. hes been pretty much ice cold all season with a few here and there games where he goes off. yes i do realize melo is shooting sub 40 also but i feel like this whole forum is way to biased. melo is the much better player, weve been complaining we dont have a shot creator yet we wouldnt even trade granger for melo straight up? idk i dont get it.

Carmelo just shoots from closer, only looking at FG% is a bit narrow. Points per shot, Danny is at 1.29, and Carmelo is 1.28. True Shooting %, Carmelo is 54.4%, and Danny is 56.3%. eFG% Carmelo is at 47.7%, while Danny is at 50.2%.

Carmelo is a better passer, and post player but overall I'll take Danny because he at least knows there is a defensive end of the court. That doesn't even count the idea that Carmelo makes 10 million a year more.

Dece
02-25-2012, 12:37 AM
This is bizarre to the level that I'm not sure I can this board seriously anymore. I'm not sure some of you even watch basketball with this fake story line that Carmello is a non sharing chucker but Danny is some basketball savvy guy that stops shooting when he isn't hitting.

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 12:37 AM
I don't know if anybody knows this but Melo shares the ball more often than Danny, 4.1 APG for Melo to 1.8 APG for Danny.

I've said to you (specifically) a lot of times that having a high assist numbers does not necessarily mean that you share the ball. Melo is a great 1-on-1 scorer and thus draws a lot of double teams. It's quite easy for him to get assists by dumping the ball to the open man.

Also, it's not like someone is disputing his ability to pass. It's his willingness that is disputed.

Danny does not draw a lot of double teams because he is not a good shot creator or 1-on-1 player. Therefore, his assists number is never going to be particularly high. However, he does share the ball. He rotates the ball on offense very well. He is not going to get an assist for rotating the ball but that's what sharing the ball means.

vnzla, you've chose to ignore tons of arguments (made by various people) in the little period of time that I post on these boards. Some people probably get tired of arguing with you over and over about the same things. Don't ever think I'm going to get tired. As long as I am on this board, I'm going to hunt you down and post argument after argument since you either post an adequate argument yourself or just agree that we disagree ;)

immortality
02-25-2012, 12:44 AM
vnzla, you've chose to ignore tons of arguments (made by various people) in the little period of time that I post on these boards. Some people probably get tired of arguing with you over and over about the same things. Don't ever think I'm going to get tired. As long as I am on this board, I'm going to hunt you down and post argument after argument since you either post an adequate argument yourself or just agree that we disagree ;)

:buddies:

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 12:45 AM
i dont think anyone realizes that stat, i mean just go look at the game logs unless i counted wrong, danny has had 16 games where he either has 1ast or below. carmelo has had 3 games with 1ast or below. and just go look at the recent games and its been 8 games since danny has gotten more then 1ast. thats actually quite sad if you really think about it, especially when your the main guy on your team

Once again:

Is Danny ever double teamed? No. At least not this year. I'll freely admit that I wasn't watching the Pacers before this season.

About Melo's assists now:

Kobe Bryant has a career average of 4.7 APG. Is Kobe Bryant a better passer? Sure. Is he a more willing passer? Hell no. He will still get assists as most teams double him up. Every scorer will have a high APG since he usually gets a double team. This results in an open man that has a nice, high percentage shot that most often than not he hits.

Pretty damn simple, actually. If Danny was double teamed he would get a high number of assists as well.

Dece
02-25-2012, 12:46 AM
This argument is nonsensical. You are essentially saying that because Carmello is so much more dangerous than Danny that he demands a double team, which leads to far more assists, this isn't actually more helpful than Danny throwing the ball around the arc... it also suggests that if Carmello weren't doubled he wouldn't pass the ball to an open teammate, which is wrong. Further, it makes the implication that Carmello, the best, or at least certainly a top 3 one on one scorer, should give the ball up when he isn't double teamed... which would be foolish, because as discussed he's most likely about to get his team a bucket against single coverage, unlike Danny. (and most players not named Kobe, Durant, etc)

The reason that argument gets ignored is because it is silly.


I've said to you (specifically) a lot of times that having a high assist numbers does not necessarily mean that you share the ball. Melo is a great 1-on-1 scorer and thus draws a lot of double teams. It's quite easy for him to get assists by dumping the ball to the open man.

Also, it's not like someone is disputing his ability to pass. It's his willingness that is disputed.

Danny does not draw a lot of double teams because he is not a good shot creator or 1-on-1 player. Therefore, his assists number is never going to be particularly high. However, he does share the ball. He rotates the ball on offense very well. He is not going to get an assist for rotating the ball but that's what sharing the ball means.

vnzla, you've chose to ignore tons of arguments (made by various people) in the little period of time that I post on these boards. Some people probably get tired of arguing with you over and over about the same things. Don't ever think I'm going to get tired. As long as I am on this board, I'm going to hunt you down and post argument after argument since you either post an adequate argument yourself or just agree that we disagree ;)

Anthem
02-25-2012, 12:49 AM
Fascinating... I didn't expect to have a majority here.

For the record, Melo is clearly the more dynamic scorer and better individual player. Yet he never seems to help his team.

OlBlu
02-25-2012, 12:49 AM
If you were the Pacers GM, and the Knicks called and offered a straight up swap of Granger for C.Anthony, would you do it?

I waited a while to see what people would say. Remember, this is a fan group that thought McRoberts was the second coming. The answer is simple. Melo is a superstar. Danny is a very good player but he cannot carry Melo's jock. If you make that trade, NY won't be able to unload Granger but the Pacers would get solid offers for Melo. Melo is by far the better athlete, the better defender (when motivated) and a scorer who can get to the rim and get his own shot any time he wants it. Make this trade and the Pacers get a lot better and NY is done....:cool:

Anthem
02-25-2012, 12:50 AM
Let's wait a bit before we say that.
Why? Does last year not count?

Anthem
02-25-2012, 12:52 AM
Ok, question for Dece, venezuala, and company.

I understand why you believe this trade would make the Pacers better. Do you think it would make New York worse?

ChristianDudley
02-25-2012, 12:55 AM
I say no to it. Melo seems to just get his shots and put up points on the board, but he doesn't do all that much else on the other end of the court as well as help make his teammates better. Just my opinion about the matter, though.

CJ Jones
02-25-2012, 01:00 AM
Danny's advanced stats can be deceiving. He gets to the line a lot because he puts his head down and charges into the paint trying to draw contact. He's figured out how to get calls without charging for the most part, but he's getting a few missed shots a game throwing up trash because he doesn't always get the call. This along with his terrible shot selection at times is dragging his fg% down. Of course the free throws helps his advanced stats, but I don't see how it really helps the team when he shoots for a low fg% and part of the reason why is because he forces things.

And he's not passing the ball either so yeah, not impressed...

Dece
02-25-2012, 01:02 AM
The whole point of sharing the ball is to get the ball into the best position to score. Against most NBA defenses you aren't going to run a play that results in an uncontested layup very often. This means you run plays or pass the ball into positions that give you the most favorable match ups.

The reason Carmello, Kobe, Durant, Dirk, etc don't pass out of single coverage when they have the ball in their spots is because this is ALREADY the place you would have wanted to get the ball during a play. This is feeding Shaq in the post. You got the ball to the best matchup, to the place you have the best chance to score. If a double doesn't come (and even if it does in the case of Shaq sometimes), you WANT this player to shoot the ball. This is the NBA, not HS, not College, there is only a 24 second shot clock and you are playing against the best defenses in the world. I'll take Melo putting a shot up against single coverage 90% of the time as a good possession.

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 01:05 AM
This argument is nonsensical. You are essentially saying that because Carmello is so much more dangerous than Danny that he demands a double team, which leads to far more assists, this isn't actually more helpful than Danny throwing the ball around the arc... it also suggests that if Carmello weren't doubled he wouldn't pass the ball to an open teammate, which is wrong. Further, it makes the implication that Carmello, the best, or at least certainly a top 3 one on one scorer, should give the ball up when he isn't double teamed... which would be foolish, because as discussed he's most likely about to get his team a bucket against single coverage, unlike Danny. (and most players not named Kobe, Durant, etc)

The reason that argument gets ignored is because it is silly.

The problem is when Melo refuses to give the ball when he is double teamed. Frankly, this happens quite often. Especially, if it is the last play.

Like in this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvlDGrv4lV8

Or this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7EewHjWSTE

Or this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5eo3ZQ_OZg

Or all the other numerous times that he refuses to pass to an open man and prefers to take a tough shot instead. Yes, Carmelo is one of the best one-on-one players. Still, an OPEN shot has a much higher chance of going in than a tough, contested shot. I don't care who you are. If there's a man open you'd be better passing the ball to him. Jordan did this and was rewarded. Was Jordan a worse one-on-one player? No. He was a better teammate and was smart enough to understand that the easier play has more chances of going in.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 01:06 AM
Fascinating... I didn't expect to have a majority here.

For the record, Melo is clearly the more dynamic scorer and better individual player. Yet he never seems to help his team.

Goodness. I can't believe I'm defending Granger.

My issue with Melo is that he thinks he's good enough to win every game by himself. He has the JO mentality. This doesn't usually work well in the playoffs. Combine that with the fact he shoots a lot of volume and not for a great percentage...and he's not a good defender really...I just find Melo grossly overrated. There was a time when people compared him to LeBron. That seem so ludicrous now. I would compare him more to a more talented version of Al Harrington...with a touch of Allen Iverson. None of those guys are winners. At least Danny is willing to defer in order to win. I have yet to see Melo do much of that.

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 01:11 AM
Goodness. I can't believe I'm defending Granger.


Feels strange, isn't it? :laugh:

CJ Jones
02-25-2012, 01:11 AM
Goodness. I can't believe I'm defending Granger.

My issue with Melo is that he thinks he's good enough to win every game by himself. He has the JO mentality. This doesn't usually work well in the playoffs. Combine that with the fact he shoots a lot of volume and not for a great percentage...and he's not a good defender really...I just find Melo grossly overrated. There was a time when people compared him to LeBron. That seem so ludicrous now. I would compare him more to a more talented version of Al Harrington...with a touch of Allen Iverson. None of those guys are winners. At least Danny is willing to defer in order to win. I have yet to see Melo do much of that.

AI took a craptacular team to the finals. I wouldn't say he was a loser.

Dece
02-25-2012, 01:11 AM
I guess I don't understand why anyone would believe NY would be better with Granger instead of Melo. I know you guys want to cite Denver as an example, but it's a really bad one.

Denver got better because they got Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, and Timofey Mozgov. That's 3-4 starting quality players and I'd certainly welcome ANY of those guys on our team right now. I know it's a better story if we pretend it was addition by subtraction, but the reality is Denver went from a relatively shallow team to a deep one, and they have always played a very high pace -- a pace that naturally favors depth.

In this proposed trade NY would get back a player who rebounds worse, passes worse, doesn't demand a double, doesn't have an effective post game, but shoots marginally better from the 3pt line and maybe plays better defense although honestly DG's defense isn't that great either. They don't gain any depth, they don't gain... anything.

CJ Jones
02-25-2012, 01:14 AM
Fascinating... I didn't expect to have a majority here.


It doesn't surprise me at all.

Dece
02-25-2012, 01:19 AM
Danny Granger is shooting the ball 15 times a game at a sub 40% rate. Where is this deferment you guys keep talking about? If that's deferring then WOW.

Also the idea that Melo is a loser but Danny is a winner? Danny has managed to make the playoffs twice in his career and I really wouldn't credit him for making it in 05. Melo has never missed the playoffs and led a team to the western conference (read: better conference) finals. You guys are just making up fantasy story lines.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 01:20 AM
Ok, question for Dece, venezuala, and company.

I understand why you believe this trade would make the Pacers better. Do you think it would make New York worse?

Just call me company.

I think Granger helps NY. Amare is an inside player and Chandler is going to be in there too. Granger is a better perimeter shooter than Carmello Anthony...and would help stretch the floor. No, I'm not a JOb lover, but I understand the need to have a few threats deep.

Then you have to look at the defense. Again, I'm sick at my stomach defending Granger, but he's simply a lot better defender than Melo. While Melo is one physical beast, he's not interested in defending and he's going to be shooting volume for 44-45% when they could have Amare and Tyson scoring more efficiently. Amare's career FG% is over 53% and Tyson's is over 57%. Tyson is at over 70 freaking % this year...while Melo is under 40%.

Now who do you really want shooting the ball? I know Melo is good, but he simply isn't as good as he thinks.

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 01:24 AM
The reason Carmello, Kobe, Durant, Dirk, etc don't pass out of single coverage when they have the ball in their spots is because this is ALREADY the place you would have wanted to get the ball during a play.

This is true. However, explain this to me. Why does Durant and Dirk take decent to good shots in crunch time and Melo or Kobe usually take horrible shots?

Here's a Nowitzki missed game-tying shot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNg5R5E-4MQ

Here's a Durant missed game-winning shot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Poq8JY23oD0

On the contrary, he's a Kobe missed shot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqcgy6xLrEM

You see what I'm talking about? Sure, you want them to shoot. But you don't want them to take a horrible shot that has no chance in hell of going in. Guys like Durant and Nowitzki seem to acknowledge this and mostly try to take good shots (like every player, they can throw a bad shot eventually but that's not the norm). There's a reason that Kobe and Melo are known for their horrible shot selection. People are not crazy.

That said, Danny's shot selection was not great in the past seasons either. So, a lot of you could think that both do the same mistakes so we may as well bring in the best player of the two. But Danny has improved a lot since Vogel came in. He is taking mostly good shots now. Sure, he throws some stupid shots once in a while but he's nowhere near the chucking that he did in previous seasons.

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 01:28 AM
I think Granger helps NY. Amare is an inside player and Chandler is going to be in there too. Granger is a better perimeter shooter than Carmello Anthony...and would help stretch the floor. No, I'm not a JOb lover, but I understand the need to have a few threats deep.

Then you have to look at the defense. Again, I'm sick at my stomach defending Granger, but he's simply a lot better defender than Melo. While Melo is one physical beast, he's not interested in defending and he's going to be shooting volume for 44-45% when they could have Amare and Tyson scoring more efficiently. Amare's career FG% is over 53% and Tyson's is over 57%. Tyson is at over 70 freaking % this year...while Melo is under 40%.

Now who do you really want shooting the ball? I know Melo is good, but he simply isn't as good as he thinks.

I agree with this 100%. NY would get a lot better by just having a good 3 point shooter instead of a shot creator. Teams with ball-dominant PGs and bigs who are great on the pick and roll do not need a shot creator. Just look at Phoenix did all these years. Pair Nash with great PnR bigs and spot up shooters. It works.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 01:29 AM
Danny Granger is shooting the ball 15 times a game at a sub 40% rate. Where is this deferment you guys keep talking about? If that's deferring then WOW.

Also the idea that Melo is a loser but Danny is a winner? Danny has managed to make the playoffs twice in his career and I really wouldn't credit him for making it in 05. Melo has never missed the playoffs and led a team to the western conference (read: better conference) finals. You guys are just making up fantasy story lines.

Melo is shooting over 18 times a game sub 40%...and he's shot over 20 times a game and his percentages have never been that good. Career he shoots 19.3 times a game to Danny's 14. What is that? 37% more shooting? That's amazing when you consider JOb gave Granger a blinding green light from anywhere inside half court.

Not saying Danny is much better though...so let me beat on him a little.

Danny's percentages have gone down every year except one small blip up. Yes, he's lower than ever right now. But even with that, he's not nearly as ball dominant...particularly down the stretch where you might as well call Melo, Force Anthony.

Magic P
02-25-2012, 01:29 AM
Goodness. I can't believe I'm defending Granger.

My issue with Melo is that he thinks he's good enough to win every game by himself. He has the JO mentality. This doesn't usually work well in the playoffs. Combine that with the fact he shoots a lot of volume and not for a great percentage...and he's not a good defender really...I just find Melo grossly overrated. There was a time when people compared him to LeBron. That seem so ludicrous now. I would compare him more to a more talented version of Al Harrington...with a touch of Allen Iverson. None of those guys are winners. At least Danny is willing to defer in order to win. I have yet to see Melo do much of that.

Stop it. If Danny was a winner the field house wouldn't be so empty. What exactly has Danny won? A selfish A.I took scrubs to the finals, Danny has never done that.

MrHale
02-25-2012, 01:30 AM
Just call me company.

I think Granger helps NY. Amare is an inside player and Chandler is going to be in there too. Granger is a better perimeter shooter than Carmello Anthony...and would help stretch the floor. No, I'm not a JOb lover, but I understand the need to have a few threats deep.

Then you have to look at the defense. Again, I'm sick at my stomach defending Granger, but he's simply a lot better defender than Melo. While Melo is one physical beast, he's not interested in defending and he's going to be shooting volume for 44-45% when they could have Amare and Tyson scoring more efficiently. Amare's career FG% is over 53% and Tyson's is over 57%. Tyson is at over 70 freaking % this year...while Melo is under 40%.

Now who do you really want shooting the ball? I know Melo is good, but he simply isn't as good as he thinks.

you could also say the reason there shooting that good is cuz other teams are focusing on stopping melo and letting the other players beat them.. but since chandler is shooting 70% might aswell let him shoot everytime and they would never lose. if only it was that easy... id really like to see what a new york knick forum would say to this kind of trade offer. probably laugh.

Dece
02-25-2012, 01:34 AM
Alright, we can find some common ground here, you aren't wrong to say Melo, and Kobe for that matter, sometimes have poor shot selection. Honestly I'm sure every major star has some youtube clip of them taking a really bad shot, but probably more common for Melo and Kobe than some.

I'm not trying to say Melo's offense is flawless, or he doesn't have room to improve. He sometimes has poor shot selection. I won't say otherwise. 90% of the time, I believe was my statement, about him being the best choice when faced with 1 on 1 coverage.

Here's the counterpoint to that though. Do you remember the Jeff Foster buzzer beater air ball? That is what happens when you have a final possession and try to run a play against NBA defenses. If the wrong guy touches the ball, everyone runs away from him and stops any passes from being manageable. Then you get your worst shooter, admittedly he's wide open, but he's still JEFF FOSTER, 18 feet from the bucket, with 5 seconds to play.

Yea. It's not pretty. link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnboXiq33os

Day-V
02-25-2012, 01:35 AM
"The first thing about basketball is that it's not about basketball."

Read that in Simmons' book. Loved it.

Carmelo is by far the better player. Hands down. Nobody's questioning that.

With that said, I want Granger on THIS team more than Melo. He still puts up the numbers Melo does, but also plays defense, gels with this team on and off the court, and is just an overall better character guy. Plus, he costs less and has less mileage on his legs than Melo.


I'll take Danny.

TheDavisBrothers
02-25-2012, 01:36 AM
Wow I'm suprised I'm 1 of only 3 that went with the salary reason...
I am not stupid enough to think that Granger is actually better then Melo, but I don't believe you should pay someone over $20 mil a year unless they are at least a top 10 player, and I don't believe Melo is

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 01:39 AM
Stop it. If Danny was a winner the field house wouldn't be so empty. What exactly has Danny won? A selfish A.I took scrubs to the finals, Danny has never done that.

People are seriously underestimating that Philly team. AI actually did have the perfect pieces on that team to compete. Tremendous defenders and rebounders in Theo Ratliff, Dikembe Mutombo and Tyrone Hill. Eric Snow was also a good defender and rarely made mistakes. Iverson fit the bill for the go-to guy. So, he was surrounded by blue collar workers who allowed him to shine. That was FAR from a scrub team. They were very solid at the fundamentals and had dominant post defenders and rebounders. Aaron McKie and George Lynch were also two very tough customers. Basically, that team was really smash mouth...and very much under-appreciated.

CJ Jones
02-25-2012, 01:40 AM
Melo vs Granger head to head:

http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/dYGPT

vnzla81
02-25-2012, 01:42 AM
you could also say the reason there shooting that good is cuz other teams are focusing on stopping melo and letting the other players beat them.. but since chandler is shooting 70% might aswell let him shoot everytime and they would never lose. if only it was that easy... id really like to see what a new york knick forum would say to this kind of trade offer. probably laugh.

Any forum would laugh at this trade.

Peck
02-25-2012, 01:43 AM
People are seriously underestimating that Philly team. AI actually did have the perfect pieces on that team to compete. Tremendous defenders and rebounders in Theo Ratliff, Dikembe Mutombo and Tyrone Hill. Eric Snow was also a good defender and rarely made mistakes. Iverson fit the bill for the go-to guy. So, he was surrounded by blue collar workers who allowed him to shine. That was FAR from a scrub team. They were very solid at the fundamentals and had dominant post defenders and rebounders. Aaron McKie and George Lynch were also two very tough customers. Basically, that team was really smash mouth...and very much under-appreciated.

I was getting ready to post something very similar to this. Also don't forget that Larry Brown was the coach of that team.

Taterhead
02-25-2012, 01:44 AM
Carmelo Anthony has been far more successful at every level of basketball, from every aspect, than Danny Granger. He has made every team he has been on, including the Knicks, better. If you looked at his actual basketball resume next to Danny Grangers, you would be amazed at the difference.

And the trade suggested isn't even realistic. The Knicks would laugh their asses off if we asked them to do that trade. And like it or not, that is the blatantly obvious, actual reality based answer to the poll question.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 01:45 AM
Melo vs Granger head to head:

http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/dYGPT

I wonder how many games Troy Murphy was playing at PF?

Anyway, I don't think that comparison is valid considering Denver had been a good team and the Pacers have been quite bad.

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 01:47 AM
id really like to see what a new york knick forum would say to this kind of trade offer. probably laugh.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?t=697125

Here's a discussion about if the Knicks would be better with Deng as opposed to Carmelo. Most people disagreed vividly. However, a lot of people on this board called Lin a shooting guard in a PG's body so their credibility can be somewhat disputed.

CJ Jones
02-25-2012, 01:48 AM
Wow I'm suprised I'm 1 of only 3 that went with the salary reason...


Yeah, now that i think about it, 20+ million might be too much... we allowed to change our vote? :cool:

King Tuts Tomb
02-25-2012, 01:49 AM
Fascinating... I didn't expect to have a majority here.

For the record, Melo is clearly the more dynamic scorer and better individual player. Yet he never seems to help his team.

Never seems to help his team? Melo has never missed the playoffs and took his team to the Western Conference Finals three years ago. Granger has made the playoffs once as the best player on his team.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 01:55 AM
Never seems to help his team? Melo has never missed the playoffs and took his team to the Western Conference Finals three years ago. Granger has made the playoffs once as the best player on his team.

Billups had a lot to do with that. That was his first year with the Nuggets. Otherwise, Melo has been one and done every single year he's made the playoffs. That's not good considering all the talent that's flowed through Denver. I suppose playing in the West is part of the issue, but if Melo were all that good, he and Nene, JR Smith, Marcus Camby and Allen Iverson would have made a little more noise than first round exits. Funny that AI and JR Smith have also been part of that underachieving group.

Edit: Count'em. 7 of 8 years were first round exits. If that doesn't tell you a little about Melo, well, I don't think I can help...

Magic P
02-25-2012, 01:55 AM
Never seems to help his team? Melo has never missed the playoffs and took his team to the Western Conference Finals three years ago. Granger has made the playoffs once as the best player on his team.

I'm telling you the comments people are making about melo is downright uninformed. Melo makes this team better. People saying he is a loser while Danny has won nothing in this league.

CJ Jones
02-25-2012, 01:57 AM
I wonder how many games Troy Murphy was playing at PF?

Anyway, I don't think that comparison is valid considering Denver had been a good team and the Pacers have been quite bad.

W/L record I wouldn't put much stock into, but the rest is fair to compare. This shows Melo has dominated head to head in every statistic. Not saying this means he'd make us better but he could.

The only reason I checked was because I could remember Melo killing us over the years, and I'm pretty sure Danny guarded him most of that time.

It doesn't matter though IMO because NY would never do the deal.

Peck
02-25-2012, 01:59 AM
I'm telling you the comments people are making about melo is downright uninformed. Melo makes this team better. People saying he is a loser while Danny has won nothing in this league.

Isn't funny how a board for the Indiana Pacers might favor a player by the Indiana Pacers?

Having said that, Melo is the better player. No questions asked.

However not 10 million a year better.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 02:01 AM
W/L record I wouldn't put much stock into, but the rest is fair to compare. This shows Melo has dominated head to head in every statistic. Not saying this means he'd make us better but he could.

The only reason I checked was because I could remember Melo killing us over the years, and I'm pretty sure Danny guarded him most of that time.

It doesn't matter though IMO because NY would never do the deal.

It's highly likely Melo was going one-on-one against Danny and we all know Danny's D was not good under JOb....AND Troy Murphy isn't exactly protecting the rim. I think using those comparisons are completely worthless. The Pacers have been sub .500 for years and the Nuggets above .500 for 9 years and above .600 for 4 of them. The quality of the other players matters a lot with this type of comparison.

jeffg-body
02-25-2012, 02:01 AM
Granger may not be as talented but he is more of a team player and I just plain don't like Melo personally.

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 02:05 AM
Alright, we can find some common ground here, you aren't wrong to say Melo, and Kobe for that matter, sometimes have poor shot selection. Honestly I'm sure every major star has some youtube clip of them taking a really bad shot, but probably more common for Melo and Kobe than some.

I'm not trying to say Melo's offense is flawless, or he doesn't have room to improve. He sometimes has poor shot selection. I won't say otherwise. 90% of the time, I believe was my statement, about him being the best choice when faced with 1 on 1 coverage.

Here's the counterpoint to that though. Do you remember the Jeff Foster buzzer beater air ball? That is what happens when you have a final possession and try to run a play against NBA defenses. If the wrong guy touches the ball, everyone runs away from him and stops any passes from being manageable. Then you get your worst shooter, admittedly he's wide open, but he's still JEFF FOSTER, 18 feet from the bucket, with 5 seconds to play.

Yea. It's not pretty. link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnboXiq33os

Sure, I do remember the Jeff Foster air ball. But that's not a good shot either. You DON'T want Foster taking a jumper just like you don't want Melo or Kobe or Granger to take a shot with 2 hands in their face while they have open teammates. What you do want is Melo or Kobe drawing the double team and then pass it out for a Fisher / Novak / PG / insert any good shooter 3 pointer.

Is Melo willing to do that? Is he willing to defer to lesser talent in order to make the right play and help his team win? LeBron is. Derrick Rose is (the pass to Scalabrine is a perfect example). Unless Melo shows that he is willing to make that play then I'm not going to ever want him on my team.

Danny has poor shot selection sometimes, I'll agree. Especially on fast breaks. But he does not take horrible shots in crunch time. Nor does he demand the ball at the end the way Melo does.

What I'm trying to say is that I see too much hero ball in players like Melo. And I wouldn't want that. At least, Danny knows his limitations and does not pretend to be a hero. That's my personal opinion at least. It's not that I'm disputing that Melo is better than Granger.

Taterhead
02-25-2012, 02:06 AM
Ok, question for Dece, venezuala, and company.

I understand why you believe this trade would make the Pacers better. Do you think it would make New York worse?

I know you didn't ask me, but I got a theory on why it would make them FAR worse in the long run.

Carmelo Anthony is easily a top 3 offensive player in the NBA. He can score in every way and he can pass and rebound as well as anyone at his position as well. The only thing Danny does better than him is shoot from three. And that is probably the most over rated skill I have ever come across. You can't take all of that away and be a better basketball team. I'm sorry. That is just a fantasy.

There are other problems with this thread.

Denver was not any better after he left, they had just went to the WCF in 2009. Where did that idea even come from? The Knicks were definitely better with him too, despite giving up a great package to Denver.

And where has this myth come from that Carmelo Anthony is somehow a liability on defense? People have accused him of under achieving, but he isn't exactly Mike Dunleavy. He is an equal defender to Granger at worst, which isn't a compliment. Amare Stoudemire is the only one on the Knicks who is allergic to good defense. He blocks a few shots and nobody notices it though.

One guy is a yearly MVP candidate, and the other guy is a 1 time All Star. It's a hard argument to take seriously.

Magic P
02-25-2012, 02:08 AM
Isn't funny how a board for the Indiana Pacers might favor a player by the Indiana Pacers?

Having said that, Melo is the better player. No questions asked.

However not 10 million a year better.

I agree he isn't 10 million better than Danny, that is the only reason why I may not make the trade if I was in management.

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 02:08 AM
I am not stupid enough to think that Granger is actually better then Melo

No one is saying that. No one has said that Granger is better than Melo. No one is going to say it (without trolling at least) either. Most people just don't like Melo and point out why.

vnzla81
02-25-2012, 02:09 AM
I know you didn't ask me, but I got a theory on why it would make them FAR worse in the long run.

Carmelo Anthony is easily a top 3 offensive player in the NBA. He can score in every way and he can pass and rebound as well as anyone at his position as well. The only thing Danny does better than him is shoot from three. And that is probably the most over rated skill I have ever come across. You can't take all of that away and be a better basketball team. I'm sorry. That is just a fantasy.

There are other problems with this thread.

Denver was not any better after he left, they had just went to the WCF in 2009. Where did that idea even come from? The Knicks were definitely better with him too, despite giving up a great package to Denver.

And where has this myth come from that Carmelo Anthony is somehow a liability on defense? People have accused him of under achieving, but he isn't exactly Mike Dunleavy. He is an equal defender to Granger at worst, which isn't a compliment. Amare Stoudemire is the only one on the Knicks who is allergic to good defense. He blocks a few shots and nobody notices it though.

One guy is a yearly MVP candidate, and the other guy is a 1 time All Star. It's a hard argument to take seriously.

Great post :thankyou:

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 02:12 AM
And the trade suggested isn't even realistic. The Knicks would laugh their asses off if we asked them to do that trade. And like it or not, that is the blatantly obvious, actual reality based answer to the poll question.

No one is saying anything different either. People need to stop assuming that we idolize Granger and read more on why we wouldn't want Melo in particular.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 02:12 AM
The only year Denver really made noise was the year Billups came in and made a difference. Also, Melo is not a top 3 offensive player in the NBA. Take a look at this. He's 13th in the league and the only one out of the top 20 to shoot under 40% from the floor. He is more over-rated than Granger...and that's hard to do.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/bycategory?cat=Fielding&sort=25&qualified=0&conference=NBA&year=season_2011

TheDavisBrothers
02-25-2012, 02:13 AM
No one is saying that. No one has said that Granger is better than Melo. No one is going to say it (without trolling at least) either. Most people just don't like Melo and point out why.

... and i never said anyone was!

vnzla81
02-25-2012, 02:15 AM
I agree he isn't 10 million better than Danny, that is the only reason why I may not make the trade if I was in management.

Melo is making 18mil this year, I don't know were people are coming with the ten mil more than Danny thing.

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 02:18 AM
... and i never said anyone was!

Never said you did either ;)

But the way it was phrased could make someone who has not read the entire thread to believe that someone did say it.

Magic P
02-25-2012, 02:22 AM
Melo is making 18mil this year, I don't know were people are coming with the ten mil more than Danny thing.

Thanks for clarifying, If this is true I would do this trade in a New York minute. Too bad the Knicks would laugh at this deal.

TheDavisBrothers
02-25-2012, 02:23 AM
Thanks for clarifying, If this is true I would do this trade in a New York minute. Too bad the Knicks would laugh at this deal.

he's also set to make 65 mil in the next 3 years tho...

Day-V
02-25-2012, 02:24 AM
Melo's salary goes

2012: 18.5
2013: 19.5
2014: 21.5
2015: 23.5

Avg Salary: $20.75M

Danny's goes:

2012: 12.0
2013: 13.0
2014: 14.0

Avg Salary: $13.00M

CJ Jones
02-25-2012, 02:25 AM
It's highly likely Melo was going one-on-one against Danny and we all know Danny's D was not good under JOb....AND Troy Murphy isn't exactly protecting the rim. I think using those comparisons are completely worthless. The Pacers have been sub .500 for years and the Nuggets above .500 for 9 years and above .600 for 4 of them. The quality of the other players matters a lot with this type of comparison.

Danny should have stopped him before he got to the rim then. ;)

I can see your point. I just have a hard time letting Danny off the hook when Melo scored 30 a game plus beat him in all the hustle stats too. From what I can remember, Melo owns Danny. He's one of the few players Danny struggles with. (LeBron - Melo - sometimes Pierce... and all the active srubs in the league like the Brewers. :D I guess that's more than a few...)

p.s. whoever posted the Foster clip, thanks... that brings tears to my eyes every time I watch it. Hysterical.

King Tuts Tomb
02-25-2012, 02:25 AM
Billups had a lot to do with that. That was his first year with the Nuggets. Otherwise, Melo has been one and done every single year he's made the playoffs. That's not good considering all the talent that's flowed through Denver. I suppose playing in the West is part of the issue, but if Melo were all that good, he and Nene, JR Smith, Marcus Camby and Allen Iverson would have made a little more noise than first round exits. Funny that AI and JR Smith have also been part of that underachieving group.

Edit: Count'em. 7 of 8 years were first round exits. If that doesn't tell you a little about Melo, well, I don't think I can help...

First of all, making the playoffs every year in a stacked Western Conference is tough. That alone qualifies Melo as better than Granger.

I lived in Denver for most of those years and I'd argue that they made a lot of noise even in those first round exits. The first few were young teams just happy to be there. They had a great, tough series against the Spurs in 07, to the point that Duncan said that Nuggets team was the toughest opponent they had in the playoffs that year.

After that, the only series they should be embarrassed about was getting swept by LA in 08. They really quit in that series. The next year they made the WCF and were playing really well into the year after that when George Karl was diagnosed with cancer and the team fell apart.

I'm not making excuses or saying Melo is a top 5 player in the league, but he's far better than Granger.

croz24
02-25-2012, 02:29 AM
As right as I've been about Granger through the years, I'm sure most would be surprised my answer would be "no, even if the contracts were the same". Carmelo has no idea how to play team basketball and his isolation, me first basketball would NOT put us in a position to ever win a title. So really, there's no point.

TheDavisBrothers
02-25-2012, 02:35 AM
p.s. whoever posted the Foster clip, thanks... that brings tears to my eyes every time I watch it. Hysterical.

Just watched that for the first time and that truely was... AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :laugh:

Taterhead
02-25-2012, 02:36 AM
The only year Denver really made noise was the year Billups came in and made a difference. Also, Melo is not a top 3 offensive player in the NBA. Take a look at this. He's 13th in the league and the only one out of the top 20 to shoot under 40% from the floor. He is more over-rated than Granger...and that's hard to do.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/bycategory?cat=Fielding&sort=25&qualified=0&conference=NBA&year=season_2011

His career shooting percentage is 46 percent, which is much better than Danny Grangers BTW. And he's shooting better this year too. I'm not sure how a guy who scores less points, less effeciently is somehow as good as someone who is widely considered a top 5-10 player at any position, on Earth.

If we had Melo we wouldn't be next to last in attendance, that's for certain. It could be a wise investment.

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 02:37 AM
As right as I've been about Granger through the years, I'm sure most would be surprised my answer would be "no, even if the contracts were the same". Carmelo has no idea how to play team basketball and his isolation, me first basketball would NOT put us in a position to ever win a title. So really, there's no point.

:eek::-o:eek::-o:eek::-o

I believe the part in bold with all my heart.

King Tuts Tomb
02-25-2012, 02:38 AM
The only year Denver really made noise was the year Billups came in and made a difference. Also, Melo is not a top 3 offensive player in the NBA. Take a look at this. He's 13th in the league and the only one out of the top 20 to shoot under 40% from the floor. He is more over-rated than Granger...and that's hard to do.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/bycategory?cat=Fielding&sort=25&qualified=0&conference=NBA&year=season_2011

This year is obviously an outlier, as he's missed 10 games on an unsteady team. Go back to last year and look a full year's worth of work and Melo put up:

25 points and 7 boards on 45% shooting.

Durant last year?

27 points and 7 boards on 46% shooting.

ilive4sports
02-25-2012, 02:40 AM
I love Danny, but I would definitely do this trade.

TheDavisBrothers
02-25-2012, 02:42 AM
His career shooting percentage is 46 percent, which is much better than Danny Grangers BTW. And he's shooting better this year too. I'm not sure how a guy who scores less points, less effeciently is somehow as good as someone who is widely considered a top 5-10 player at any position, on Earth.

If we had Melo we wouldn't be next to last in attendance, that's for certain. It could be a wise investment.

Wow, I didn't know that 46% is much better then 44%, and what knowledgable people actually believe he's top 5-10? I agree that Melo is better but you're just exaggerating...

Dgreenwell3
02-25-2012, 02:45 AM
Melo fits us because he Is a go to scorer, Danny is better spot up shooter for their pick and roll type game as a pressure valve...

Taterhead
02-25-2012, 02:49 AM
No one is saying anything different either. People need to stop assuming that we idolize Granger and read more on why we wouldn't want Melo in particular.

Yes they are, this is a thread about a hypothetical straight up trade between the two. How is it not about Granger being better than Anthony in some way?

If you would like to post what you don't like about Carmelo Anthony and his game, then post a thread about that, and I might even join in and tell you what I don't like about him as well.

But if you post anything about trading Granger for him, or compare them in any way, then what do you expect?

AesopRockOn
02-25-2012, 02:55 AM
People are seriously underestimating that Philly team. AI actually did have the perfect pieces on that team to compete. Tremendous defenders and rebounders in Theo Ratliff, Dikembe Mutombo and Tyrone Hill. Eric Snow was also a good defender and rarely made mistakes. Iverson fit the bill for the go-to guy. So, he was surrounded by blue collar workers who allowed him to shine. That was FAR from a scrub team. They were very solid at the fundamentals and had dominant post defenders and rebounders. Aaron McKie and George Lynch were also two very tough customers. Basically, that team was really smash mouth...and very much under-appreciated.

I don't really care about Melo, but it is ridiculous that some are painting Iverson's career in these brush strokes. Seriously, name another Finals team with a 2-8 as bad as that Sixers team. I bet there isn't one in the modern era that wasn't led by a top 25 player. Admittedly, when AI fell, he fell pretty hard. And he's still on the ground kicking himself. But when he was doing it, he was one of the most relentless, hard-working, inspired participants in all of sports history. It's a shame so many try to defile that legacy because of some "perception."

ilive4sports
02-25-2012, 02:58 AM
I don't really care about Melo, but it is ridiculous that some are painting Iverson's career in these brush strokes. Seriously, name another Finals team with a 2-8 as bad as that Sixers team. I bet there isn't one in the modern era that wasn't led by a top 25 player. Admittedly, when AI fell, he fell pretty hard. And he's still on the ground kicking himself. But when he was doing it, he was one of the most relentless, hard-working, inspired participants in all of sports history. It's a shame so many try to defile that legacy because of some "perception."

07 Cavs.

TheDavisBrothers
02-25-2012, 03:03 AM
07 Cavs.

:5stars: :2tup:

CJ Jones
02-25-2012, 03:08 AM
He said without an all time top 25 player. ;)

I don't think LeBron qualifies.

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 03:13 AM
Yes they are, this is a thread about a hypothetical straight up trade between the two. How is it not about Granger being better than Anthony in some way?

If you would like to post what you don't like about Carmelo Anthony and his game, then post a thread about that, and I might even join in and tell you what I don't like about him as well.

But if you post anything about trading Granger for him, or compare them in any way, then what do you expect?

No, it isn't about Granger being better than Anthony. It is about straight up trading Danny Granger with Carmelo Anthony.

There are 4 reasons to not make a straight up player to player trade:

1) You feel that your player is better than the other team's player. Which is not the case here.

2) You feel that your player fits your system better than the other team's player. Which is not the case here either if we're talking about solely tactical on-court reasons.

3) You don't like the money that you're going to pay their player over the money that you pay your own. Which is the case for the minority and not the majority.

4) You do not want said player in your team. Which is the case for most people arguing against Melo (me included).

Notice this. croz24 has been one of most vocative people again Danny favoritism and is always quick to point out his flaws and negative aspects. However, even he wouldn't trade him for Melo because he simply does not like Melo.

Taterhead
02-25-2012, 03:20 AM
Wow, I didn't know that 46% is much better then 44%, and what knowledgable people actually believe he's top 5-10? I agree that Melo is better but you're just exaggerating...

Yeah I guess you're right, he is only one of the 10 starters in the All Star game Sunday night despite playing the same position as Lebron James. Yeah, what a reach, lol.

Anyways, yes, 2% is a pretty big dip in FG percentage when you are talking about the volume of shots those guys take over the course of a year. Anthony scores a couple hundred more points than Danny most years, and that 2% is a big reason for that.

And over the last 3 years, Danny's FG percentage is more like 41-42% anyways. His FG% shooting has actually gotten worse every year since his rookie season. You can actually see his shot selection go down the drain on paper, it's fascinating.


No, it isn't about Granger being better than Anthony. It is about straight up trading Danny Granger with Carmelo Anthony.

There are 4 reasons to not make a straight up player to player trade:

1) You feel that your player is better than the other team's player. Which is not the case here.

2) You feel that your player fits your system better than the other team's player. Which is not the case here either if we're talking about solely tactical on-court reasons.

3) You don't like the money that you're going to pay their player over the money that you pay your own. Which is the case for the minority and not the majority.

4) You do not want said player in your team. Which is the case for most people arguing against Melo (me included).

Notice this. croz24 has been one of most vocative people again Danny favoritism and is always quick to point out his flaws and negative aspects. However, even he wouldn't trade him for Melo because he simply does not like Melo.

Sure.

But a team who is next to last in attendance and has not been a viable contender for a title in almost a decade can't really afford to turn down straight up trades for the leagues top players.

What a thread.

ilive4sports
02-25-2012, 03:21 AM
He said without an all time top 25 player. ;)

I don't think LeBron qualifies.

no, he just said name one. the top 25 thing wasn't a requirement. My answer doesn't go against his point though.

ilive4sports
02-25-2012, 03:23 AM
Yeah I guess you're right, he is only one of the 10 starters in the All Star game Sunday night despite playing the same position as Lebron James. Yeah, what a reach, lol.

Anyways, yes, 2% is a pretty big dip in FG percentage when you are talking about the volume of shots those guys take over the course of a year. Anthony scores a couple hundred more points than Danny most years, and that 2% is a big reason for that.

And over the last 3 years, Danny's FG percentage is more like 41-42% anyways. His FG% shooting has actually gotten worse every year since his rookie season. You can actually see his shot selection go down the drain on paper, it's fascinating.

People always say this, but its just not true. In 07-08 he shot 44.6% and in 08-09 he shot 44.7%

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/danny_granger/career_stats.html

also Danny's shot selection this year has been much better than previous seasons, he's just not hitting the shots.

TheDavisBrothers
02-25-2012, 03:28 AM
Yeah I guess you're right, he is only one of the 10 starters in the All Star game Sunday night despite playing the same position as Lebron James. Yeah, what a reach, lol.

yea cuz all-star fan voting is a great way to gauge players rankings :rolleyes:

I suppose you believe Joel Anthony is way better them Roy Hibbert too...

AesopRockOn
02-25-2012, 03:33 AM
no, he just said name one. the top 25 thing wasn't a requirement. My answer doesn't go against his point though.

That Cavs team was the first to come to mind for me when considering non-Finals-worthy supporting casts. I didn't want to overqualify my statement with the top 25 and modern era parts, but I guess I did. :-p

My main point was that Iverson seems to be getting a bum rap on the legacy standpoint. I remember how formidable those Lakers teams were that beat us 4-2. Iverson was able to will that Sixers team to win a game in that Finals. His determination was truly inspiring; changed my whole outlook on him. It just sucks that he isn't remembered for those kinds of things.

And also that the "practice" thing still colors people's perception of him. It would be like if all people could cite about Reggie was that he choked people and grabbed his balls afterward. Dos pesos.

Taterhead
02-25-2012, 03:34 AM
People always say this, but its just not true. In 07-08 he shot 44.6% and in 08-09 he shot 44.7%

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/danny_granger/career_stats.html

also Danny's shot selection this year has been much better than previous seasons, he's just not hitting the shots.

I'm glad we have you there to keep us in check.


I STAND CORRECTED: He improved 1 single season, by the absolute slimmest of statistical margins.

Thank you.


yea cuz all-star fan voting is a great way to gauge players rankings :rolleyes:

I suppose you believe Joel Anthony is way better them Roy Hibbert too...

Who should be in his place then? I bet you can't give a realistic answer to that.

BTW, say what you want about fan voting. Most of the time, with a few exceptions, they get the starters right.

xBulletproof
02-25-2012, 03:35 AM
Yeah I guess you're right, he is only one of the 10 starters in the All Star game Sunday night despite playing the same position as Lebron James. Yeah, what a reach, lol.

Using a fan based voting system to prove a point, that is a reach. I'm guessing Kobe when he wasn't even starting in his 2nd year for the Lakers deserved to be one of the 10 starters for the All Stars. Or how about last year when Yao Ming was a starter, despite never playing a single minute. :laugh:

The guy plays in New York. I would guess if Jeremy Lin started his run a bit earlier he would have gotten voted in by China/Tiawan/New York and you'd say he deserved it too.

Oh and the 2% means virtually nothing. They score virtually the same points per shot. Carmelo just shoots more. Danny shoots more 3's. Efficiency wise they're equal.

Taterhead
02-25-2012, 03:43 AM
Using a fan based voting system to prove a point, that is a reach. I'm guessing Kobe when he wasn't even starting in his 2nd year for the Lakers deserved to be one of the 10 starters for the All Stars. Or how about last year when Yao Ming was a starter, despite never playing a single minute. :laugh:

The guy plays in New York. I would guess if Jeremy Lin started his run a bit earlier he would have gotten voted in by China/Tiawan/New York and you'd say he deserved it too.

Oh and the 2% means virtually nothing. They score virtually the same points per shot. Carmelo just shoots more. Danny shoots more 3's. Efficiency wise they're equal.

Do you care to tell me who should be starting? Or just nitpick fan voting?

Who deserves it more?

I didn't say anything about Yao Ming. Anyone can go through and nitpick the exceptions. But the fans get it right most of the time.

BTW, what don't you understand about the difference between efficiency, and what you actually get done?

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 03:43 AM
Sure.

But a team who is next to last in attendance and has not been a viable contender for a title in almost a decade can't really afford to turn down straight up trades for the leagues top players.

What a thread.

1) It's not that we're actually proposed this trade. It is just a hypothetical question.

2) There's no question that it would raise our attendance. It comes down to what matters the most to a GM. Raising their team's attendance or building a better basketball team.

Is our roster (minus Granger) so much better than their roster (minus Melo)? Because only in such a case it could justify them having a worse record despite having an easier schedule and superior "talent".

Taterhead
02-25-2012, 03:50 AM
1) It's not that we're actually proposed this trade. It is just a hypothetical question.

2) There's no question that it would raise our attendance. It comes down to what matters the most to a GM. Raising their team's attendance or building a better basketball team.

Is our roster (minus Granger) so much better than their roster (minus Melo)? Because only in such a case it could justify them having a worse record despite having an easier schedule and superior "talent".

You have nothing to support that we would be a better basketball team with Granger. I have given you my reasons why I think we would be better with Melo. Take it or leave it. This is the first season in Danny Grangers life he has been on a better team than Carmelo Anthony though.

BTW, Granger is not effecient. Even xbulletproof said there is little difference in effeciency. He also is not an elite defender what so ever. Those are the same arguments being used to tear down Carmelo. So basically what you have is 2 scoring SF's, one of them is elite, and one is not. Take your pick.

BTW I can read. I know what the thread is about.

TheDavisBrothers
02-25-2012, 03:54 AM
Admitedly the Forwards are weak in the east but, just because they are weak doesnt mean hes top 10 player. I guess this means Bynum is a top ten player in your eyes too... Position and conference factor into it

Taterhead
02-25-2012, 03:56 AM
Admitedly the Forwards are weak in the east but, just because they are weak doesnt mean hes top 10 player. I guess this means Bynum is a top ten player in your eyes too... Position and conference factor into it

No, I think he's a top 10 player because I cannot think of 10 players that are better than him right now.

Give me a list of 10 that are better and I bet it's highly debatable, that is all I'm saying. He is one of the very best players in the league. I didn't think that was in dispute.

ilive4sports
02-25-2012, 03:57 AM
That Cavs team was the first to come to mind for me when considering non-Finals-worthy supporting casts. I didn't want to overqualify my statement with the top 25 and modern era parts, but I guess I did. :-p

My main point was that Iverson seems to be getting a bum rap on the legacy standpoint. I remember how formidable those Lakers teams were that beat us 4-2. Iverson was able to will that Sixers team to win a game in that Finals. His determination was truly inspiring; changed my whole outlook on him. It just sucks that he isn't remembered for those kinds of things.

And also that the "practice" thing still colors people's perception of him. It would be like if all people could cite about Reggie was that he choked people and grabbed his balls afterward. Dos pesos.

Oh I actually agree with you. I grew up in PA and it was all 76ers. Iverson fell hard and it really did hurt his legacy, but he was a hell of a player. And that Sixers team he lead to the finals was not good. Tailor made my ***, people say the same thing about the 07 Cavs and LeBron. Those were **** teams lead by great players.

TheDavisBrothers
02-25-2012, 04:06 AM
No, I think he's a top 10 player because I cannot think of 10 players that are better than him right now.

Give me a list of 10 that are better and I bet it's highly debatable, that is all I'm saying. He is one of the very best players in the league. I didn't think that was in dispute.

I love how you have only used the all star argument as the reason why he is a top 10 player and then when that argument is discredited you change your reasoning...

Lebron
Wade
Paul
Kobe
Durant
Rose
Dwight
Love
Deron
Dirk
Aldridge?
Griffin?
Lin?:p
Forgot Westbrook?
There is my top 10 (no neccisarily in that order) plus other possibilities

xBulletproof
02-25-2012, 04:10 AM
No, I think he's a top 10 player because I cannot think of 10 players that are better than him right now.

Give me a list of 10 that are better and I bet it's highly debatable, that is all I'm saying. He is one of the very best players in the league. I didn't think that was in dispute.

Lebron James
Dewayne Wade
Dwight Howard
Kevin Durant
Kobe Bryant
Chris Paul
Blake Griffin
Deron Williams
Derrick Rose
Russell Westbrook
Rajon Rondo
LaMarcus Aldridge

Just off the top of my head. If I looked it up I'm sure I'd have more.

ilive4sports
02-25-2012, 04:12 AM
I'm glad we have you there to keep us in check.


I STAND CORRECTED: He improved 1 single season, by the absolute slimmest of statistical margins.

Thank you.

and he has decreased 2 seasons by the absolute slimmest of statistical margins too. 05-06 was 46.2% and 06-07 was 45.9% 09-10 was 42.8% and 10-11 was 42.5%. In 06-07 he would have had to hit 3, yes THREE, more shots to keep the same average as the previous year. In 10-11 he would have had to hit he would have had to hit 4, yes FOUR, more shots to keep his average the same.

Just the statement about his shooting % getting worse each year is stupid when you really look at the numbers. Comparing his FG% from when he was a rookie who took less than 500 shots and had little offensive responsibility to years where he was the offense and took 1,200+ shots is stupid.

Just say he hasn't shot as well since his All Star season. In previous years i think that had a lot to do with the team around him, he was forced into a lot of bad shots. This year I have no idea whats going on. His shot selection has improved imo, he just isnt hitting shots he normally does. Recently he has been attacking the basket more and getting to the FT line as he is averaging 6.3 FTAs and hitting them at nearly 87%. If he keeps doing that, I expect his FG% to rise.

Taterhead
02-25-2012, 04:28 AM
Lebron James
Dewayne Wade
Dwight Howard
Kevin Durant
Kobe Bryant
Chris Paul
Blake Griffin
Deron Williams
Derrick Rose
Russell Westbrook
Rajon Rondo
LaMarcus Aldridge

Just off the top of my head. If I looked it up I'm sure I'd have more.

Not a bad list, But Anthony would not look out of place on there instead of Rajon Rondo, would he?

Taterhead
02-25-2012, 04:38 AM
I love how you have only used the all star argument as the reason why he is a top 10 player and then when that argument is discredited you change your reasoning...

Lebron
Wade
Paul
Kobe
Durant
Rose
Dwight
Love
Deron
Dirk
Aldridge?
Griffin?
Lin?:p
There is my top 10 (no neccisarily in that order) plus other possibilities

What are you talking about? The All Star comment was made simply in reference to his claim that it was a huge reach to call him that.

All I'm saying is Carmelo isn't out of place on that list. And nobody can honestly tell me that guys like Lamarcus Aldridge and Rajon Rondo are any better players than Carmelo Anthony.

BTW mine is, since I asked for yours......

Lebron James
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Kobe Bryant
Derrick Rose
Kevin Durant
Kevin Love
Carmelo Anthony
Blake Griffen
Rajon Rondo

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 04:41 AM
You have nothing to support that we would be a better basketball team with Granger. I have given you my reasons why I think we would be better with Melo. Take it or leave it. This is the first season in Danny Grangers life he has been on a better team than Carmelo Anthony though.

BTW, Granger is not effecient. Even xbulletproof said there is little difference in effeciency. He also is not an elite defender what so ever. Those are the same arguments being used to tear down Carmelo. So basically what you have is 2 scoring SF's, one of them is elite, and one is not. Take your pick.

BTW I can read. I know what the thread is about.

My question was not implying that we are (would be) a better team with Granger. My question was implying that we are a better without Melo.

My position on this subject is clear. I do not like Melo's playing style. Too much hero ball for my taste and he is not as good as Kobe is at it in order to justify this tendency.

I'm not saying that Granger is efficient. I'm not saying that Granger is an elite defender either (although he is better than Melo). What I'm saying is that Granger (despite all his flaws) has bought at the concept of sharing the ball. That's pretty damn important for a team like the Pacers. He also seems to be a pretty good role model for PG.

Those are the reasons that I'd reject this trade, personally.

Now, to another question. Would I trade Danny for a similarly lopsided (in our favor) deal like the one mentioned in this thread? A deal in the lines of Danny Granger for James Harden and Kendrick Perkins. Sure, I would. I'd take it and run away as far as I could.

Do you know why I'm saying this? Because I want to clarify that personal preference plays a huge role when it comes to how people react to trades. And sometimes it isn't that someone idolizes a team's player. It's just that he really dislikes the player that the other team offers.

kidthecat
02-25-2012, 04:44 AM
Some of you are way too reliant on statistic analysis.

I will say that Carmello would ruin the makeup of this current Pacers team, in that this current incarnation functions highly without the presence of a ball-dominant player. That is not to mention the unmeasurable qualities, such as Carmello's perceived petulance or the lack of effort he gives when the ball is not in his hands.

Now, individual greatness is welcome, and highly enjoyable. I remember during the dreadful JOB days Danny was putting up amazing individual numbers, but that success was not reflected in the win/loss column. Danny infuriates me as much as any Pacer (probably more so), because his effort -- to me at least -- is not as consistent as I would like. But even that slight against him does not in any way measure up to what Carmello would be like in his place. You think Danny has questionable shot selection? Wait until Carmello dominates every single possession on a team that is by all accords pretty well balanced. Wait until Carmello decides to play defense only when it suits him, and not even well then. Danny may be lax at times, but I at least know he is a wonderful defender when such strikes him. I've never seen Carmello play defense (but perhaps that is just due to a limited sample size).

It is undeniable, as much as I believe in Danny, that Carmello is a better individual player. But, as I mentioned earlier, that does not necessarily translate into team success. In Carmello's case it has not. Whether it does or not for Danny remains to be seen, but I am pretty happy that the current Pacers are a collection of talent more so than an expression of individual talent.

And, for the record, I do love Danny and am proud he is a Pacer. Take it as you see fit.

xBulletproof
02-25-2012, 04:48 AM
Lamarcus is carrying Portland this year. I don't know how much you're able to watch West coast games, but he's been stupid good this year. In the case of Rondo, he's a fighter and plays great defense. I value that a ton.

I would easily start Bosh over Carmelo in the East as well. He's putting up comparable (or better) numbers almost everywhere and he's doing it on a better team. Carmelo is shooting sub 40% this year and missed almost 1/3 of their scheduled games too.

TheDavisBrothers
02-25-2012, 04:49 AM
What are you talking about? The All Star comment was made simply in reference to my claim that it was a huge reach to call him that.

All I'm saying is Carmelo isn't out of place on that list. And nobody can honestly tell me that guys like Lamarcus Aldridge and Rajon Rondo are any better players than Carmelo Anthony.

BTW mine is, since I asked for yours......

Lebron James
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Kobe Bryant
Derrick Rose
Kevin Durant
Kevin Love
Carmelo Anthony
Blake Griffen
Rajon Rondo

How is Wade not on your list? Also DWill is way better than Rondo, and I think Aldridge and Dirk are above Blake

Taterhead
02-25-2012, 05:08 AM
My question was not implying that we are (would be) a better team with Granger. My question was implying that we are a better without Melo.

My position on this subject is clear. I do not like Melo's playing style. Too much hero ball for my taste and he is not as good as Kobe is at it in order to justify this tendency.

I'm not saying that Granger is efficient. I'm not saying that Granger is an elite defender either (although he is better than Melo). What I'm saying is that Granger (despite all his flaws) has bought at the concept of sharing the ball. That's pretty damn important for a team like the Pacers. He also seems to be a pretty good role model for PG.

Those are the reasons that I'd reject this trade, personally.

Now, to another question. Would I trade Danny for a similarly lopsided (in our favor) deal like the one mentioned in this thread? A deal in the lines of Danny Granger for James Harden and Kendrick Perkins. Sure, I would. I'd take it and run away as far as I could.

Do you know why I'm saying this? Because I want to clarify that personal preference plays a huge role when it comes to how people react to trades. And sometimes it isn't that someone idolizes a team's player. It's just that he really dislikes the player that the other team offers.

Your responses to me crack me up.

I would do Granger for Perkins and Harden too man. Maybe one day someone will offer us something like this. Cross your fingers for me.

We would be a better team with Carmelo. So it would be silly to turn down a trade like that. Whatever your reasons are. Even if it was just to get him and trade him somewhere else. If OKC would give us Harden and Perkins for Granger, then they would throw in a first round pick for Melo instead.

He is not some selfish gun. I don't know who you're watching. He carried a college team as a freshman to a national title. He has been pretty successful in the NBA too. He hasn't won a title yet professionally but neither have about 28 other teams since he's been in the league. And last I checked Danny Granger has yet to win a playoff series himself.

I personally have been waiting a long time to watch a meaningful game at Conseco where the home team actually had the support of the locals in their own building. The fact that Carmelo could bring you that alone, makes the trade worthwhile.

The only way you don't do a trade like that is if you feel like we would be a worse team after the deal. How could anyone think that? We need someone to take charge of the offense at times. Carmelo's alpha male personality is what we need. He backs it up too.

What you call being a hero, I call being a leader. And we have lacked one since Reggie.


How is Wade not on your list? Also DWill is way better than Rondo, and I think Aldridge and Dirk are above Blake

Because Wade is not very durable.

You have to be play good defense to make my list, or be a top level scorer. IMO, the only thing more valuable than an elite defender is an elite scorer, a great rebounder like Love is right up there too. That is why Williams, Aldridge and Dirk (age also) don't make my list. They are the poorest defenders in that group, IMO. It's just my opinion though.


Lamarcus is carrying Portland this year. I don't know how much you're able to watch West coast games, but he's been stupid good this year. In the case of Rondo, he's a fighter and plays great defense. I value that a ton.

I would easily start Bosh over Carmelo in the East as well. He's putting up comparable (or better) numbers almost everywhere and he's doing it on a better team. Carmelo is shooting sub 40% this year and missed almost 1/3 of their scheduled games too.

I can't really argue with that based purely off of this season. Bosh has had a better year than Anthony. I like Rondo a lot as well, I have him on my list ahead of Deron Williams.

I think those spots 5-10 are pretty arguable and you could make a case for 4-5 guys being deserving no matter who's list you look at. It's hard not to forget somebody.

With guys like Aldridge, it's more about the fact he hasn't done it consistently enough for me to put him on there yet. On the other hand, I've watched Carmelo do what he does for a long time now. That's all.

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 05:27 AM
Your responses to me crack me up.

I would do Granger for Perkins and Harden too man. Maybe one day someone will offer us something like this. Cross your fingers for me.

We would be a better team with Carmelo. So it would be silly to turn down a trade like that. Whatever your reasons are. Even if it was just to get him and trade him somewhere else. If OKC would give us Harden and Perkins for Granger, then they would throw in a first round pick for Melo instead.

He is not some selfish gun. I don't know who you're watching. He carried a college team as a freshman to a national title. He has been pretty successful in the NBA too. He hasn't won a title yet professionally but neither have about 28 other teams since he's been in the league. And last I checked Danny Granger has yet to win a playoff series himself.

I personally have been waiting a long time to watch a meaningful game at Conseco where the home team actually had the support of the locals in their own building. The fact that Carmelo could bring you that alone, makes the trade worthwhile.

The only way you don't do a trade like that is if you feel like we would be a worse team after the deal. How could anyone think that? We need someone to take charge of the offense at times. Carmelo's alpha male personality is what we need. He backs it up too.

What you call being a hero, I call being a leader. And we have lacked one since Reggie.


I already said that I feel like we would be a worse team after the deal. I have no problem saying that I'm extremely biased against Melo's play style. I am. I just hate this "I'm gonna take the last shot because I'm the best" mentality. It's something that I think would be really toxic for our club. At least, that's my take.

Look mate, my position on him is clear. We both understand one another's opinions. We just happen to disagree. There's nothing wrong with that. I just don't like Melo as a player. As simple as it gets, really :D

PS: OKC is not stupid. They are not going to give us Harden and Perkins for Granger. It does not make any sense. Hell, they would trade Harden for Granger straight up. And that's logical as Harden has the all the tools to be better than Granger.

Taterhead
02-25-2012, 05:34 AM
I already said that I feel like we would be a worse team after the deal. I have no problem saying that I'm extremely biased against Melo's play style. I am. I just hate this "I'm gonna take the last shot because I'm the best" mentality. It's something that I think would be really toxic for our club. At least, that's my take.

Look mate, my position on him is clear. We both understand one another's opinions. We just happen to disagree. There's nothing wrong with that. I just don't like Melo as a player. As simple as it gets, really :D

PS: OKC is not stupid. They are not going to give us Harden and Perkins for Granger. It does not make any sense. Hell, they would trade Harden for Granger straight up. And that's logical as Harden has the all the tools to be better than Granger.

I get passionate about my opinions around here, but make no mistake, I appreciate you being on here and giving us your opinion from so far away. And I try not to sound like a jerk but I fail miserably at times. Don't take me too seriously though. There ain't anything else to do at this hour better than argue about my favorite sport.

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 05:43 AM
I get passionate about my opinions around here, but make no mistake, I appreciate you being on here and giving us your opinion from so far away. And I try not to sound like a jerk but I fail miserably at times. Don't take me too seriously though. There ain't anything else to do at this hour better than argue about my favorite sport.

Don't worry, man. We just disagree on a subject. Big deal :p

At least, you take the time to answer to my arguments and make some good arguments of your own. I enjoy good argumentation even if I happen to disagree with the point itself.

Needless to say, I love getting into arguments as well. I always was vocative about the things I like and support.

TheDavisBrothers
02-25-2012, 07:15 AM
Because Wade is not very durable.

You have to be play good defense to make my list, or be a top level scorer. IMO, the only thing more valuable than an elite defender is an elite scorer, a great rebounder like Love is right up there too. That is why Williams, Aldridge and Dirk (age also) don't make my list. They are the poorest defenders in that group, IMO. It's just my opinion though.

Wade's played in about 92% of his games the past 4 seasons and about 83% for his career, granted that's not great for a superstar, but that's still repectable and a hell of a lot better then his championship partner, Shaq. If anything Melo is the worst defender on your list IMO. I would take Williams scoring and existance of a jump shot (and a solid one at that), over Rondo's D anyday. Also, I don't see how Blake is any better on D then Dirk, who I can't forget dominated the Heat in the finals, and Aldridge, who as xBulletproof said, has been a stud in Portland. I'd say Aldridge could very easily be the best PF in the game, not Blake, Dirk, Love, or Bosh.

In contrast Melo has only played in 84% (a lot less then Wade) of his games the past 4 years and 89% for his career

DaveP63
02-25-2012, 08:51 AM
No, because even though Melo is a better scorer, he doesn't fit into what we are trying to do since he doesn't play a lick of defense.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 10:42 AM
No, because even though Melo is a better scorer, he doesn't fit into what we are trying to do since he doesn't play a lick of defense.

This is exactly what George Karl complained about for years. This is also why he didn't get along with Melo. You'd have to be living under a rock not to hear about that. This is one reason why Melo is over-rated.

Then you have the black hole that is Melo. He's a great scorer, for sure. But he tries to do too much alone. His game is very, very similar to Al Harrington's, except he's more talented. That is why with all that talent on offense, he's kicking you at the same time. Only thing is, people are blind to it. In contrast, you have a less talented team in the Spurs who can easily beat that garbage one-on-one game.

But the defense part of Melo is simply undeniable. It's well documented and published all over the place. The game consists of offense AND defense and with all that talent in Denver, they still never got out of the first round except that year Billups arrived. Most of that was due to a lack of commitment (or ability) on defense by Carmello Anthony.

LoneGranger33
02-25-2012, 11:05 AM
Don't want to change my username.

pizza guy
02-25-2012, 11:56 AM
I like Danny a lot. This season has actually made me like Danny a bit more because he's grown into a great team leader in the way he understands the game, his teammates, his role, and his attitude.

With that said, Melo is the next level up from a talent perspective. I'd make the trade because I think it pushes the Pacers into the next level of contention. Vogel would have his work cut out for him, trying to get Melo to play better defense. But I don't think we'd change the offense for him. I believe Frank is TEAM FIRST all the way, no matter who is on the roster, and Melo would just have to fit into that. He obviously becomes the first option for last second game winners, but through the course of the game, DWest, Hibbert, DC, and PG have all proven to be reliable contributors, and Melo would have to work with that.

But, IMO, this move would take us from "young upstart that will challenge the big boys" to "serious threat."

vnzla81
02-25-2012, 12:22 PM
No, because even though Melo is a better scorer, he doesn't fit into what we are trying to do since he doesn't play a lick of defense.

So coach K must be crazy for playing Melo in the dream team instead of Danny and "his better D".

dal9
02-25-2012, 12:22 PM
New Poll: Would you do Hansbrough for Amare? Go.

SycamoreKen
02-25-2012, 01:18 PM
Mello did hit 5 half court shots in a row today during the practice session. that is more than the rest of the 2 squads hit all together. That is some skill!

SycamoreKen
02-25-2012, 01:21 PM
New Poll: Would you do Hansbrough for Amare? Go.

No way. Amare is a black hole that never passes the ball back out.

OlBlu
02-25-2012, 01:28 PM
No way. Amare is a black hole that never passes the ball back out.

People here fall in love with our players and perhaps that is a good thing. NY would not trade Amare for Granger and Tyler......:cool:

OlBlu
02-25-2012, 01:29 PM
So coach K must be crazy for playing Melo in the dream team instead of Danny and "his better D".

Melo can play GREAT defense when he is motivated and he was motivated on the dream team. Danny is not a good defender and is also not motivated. The fact is that Melo is a much better player in every phase of the game than Granger.....:cool: Has anyone made any offers for Granger?

Shade
02-25-2012, 01:31 PM
There is no question that Melo's the more talented player, just like there's no question that Granger is the better team player.

Whether you take Melo or not depends on whether you value talent over chemistry.

Day-V
02-25-2012, 01:35 PM
Danny is not a good defender and is also not motivated.

http://www.itusozluk.com/image/don-t-feed-the-troll_13314.jpg

Shade
02-25-2012, 01:36 PM
New Poll: Would you do Hansbrough for Amare? Go.

Amare the player? Absolutely.

Amare the contract? No thanks.

Shade
02-25-2012, 01:39 PM
Danny is not a good defender

:hmm:


Has anyone made any offers for Granger?

Um...yes. There have been several offers made for Danny, in fact.

Statements like these make me wonder if you aren't just trolling.

Shade
02-25-2012, 01:41 PM
No way. Amare is a black hole that never passes the ball back out.

To be fair, so is Tyler.

pacers74
02-25-2012, 01:47 PM
In a vacuum, Melo is a more dynamic player because of his ability to score in bunches. But in a team environment I'd rather have Danny, even if he can disappear at times. I'd prefer the guy that has shown that he can step back when his shot isn't falling over the guy who stubbornly forces the action even when he's having an off night.

And as has been mentioned, it's no coincidence that the Nuggets and Knicks were and are better without him.


This is exactly wist I was thinking. Now that melon is back, lets see if NY is better with him, Lin, JR, and B.Davis.

OlBlu
02-25-2012, 01:50 PM
:hmm:



Um...yes. There have been several offers made for Danny, in fact.

Statements like these make me wonder if you aren't just trolling.

Well, what has been offered for Granger? I don't think he should be traded unless the Pacers are a big winner in the deal.... I don't do any trolling. I think it was a legitimate question and it was in the context of showing the relative value of Melo (high) and Granger (low).....:cool:

OlBlu
02-25-2012, 01:51 PM
http://www.itusozluk.com/image/don-t-feed-the-troll_13314.jpg

If the truth hurts, so be it.......:cool:

able
02-25-2012, 02:04 PM
I'd be ashamed to call myself a pacers fan if they got melo, nothing i want to do with him.
You all complimented Larry for getting rid of the "trash" and you are going to get the new foreman in via trade?

no, no and no, in fact i would cancel a planned Indy trip.

SoupIsGood
02-25-2012, 02:14 PM
You take Melo and run away loling.

imawhat
02-25-2012, 02:48 PM
Melo is one of my least favorite people in the NBA and it'd be extremely difficult to root for him, but I would be silly to not take him over Granger.

All the talk of Melo not being a winner: last I checked he's made the playoffs every season. If that's your argument, then look in the mirror because Granger has missed the playoffs but twice.

Melo and Granger have the same top skill which is scoring. Melo is light years ahead of Danny as a scorer; he is elite. As far as team basketball, ask Mike K who coached him in the Olympics. He said he was one of the best, if not the best team player on the team.

I understand the hatred of Melo and the homerism for Granger but I think Melo is considerably better. At the least you can flip Melo for better assets than Granger.

Justin Tyme
02-25-2012, 02:58 PM
There are players who are really good, but really don't help their team win. Sure Denver won games, but they didn't win in the playoffs. Only once did they ever get out of the 1st round while Melo was there. He has been a PITA at times for his coach and franchise. I like the description of Melo to Harrington, but with more talent. It fits quite well.

W/o a doubt Melo is a better offensive player than Granger, but Granger knows how and plays some "D" whereas Melo only plays offense. "D" to Melo is something others play to try and stop his scoring. I just don't see Melo playing within the style game the Pacers play or want to play, so I wouldn't trade Granger for Melo. Now, if it was Rudy Gay, then I'm all on board for the trade. JMOAA

ksuttonjr76
02-25-2012, 03:03 PM
I'm getting to this argument too late. Honestly, my gut keeps telling me that Melo wouldn't be the answer for this team. Melo's whole playing style puts the team in a situation where he would demand the ball all the time or needs so many touches to be effective. I don't believe the Pacers need that type of player. Also and personally, I just don't like Melo.

Now Danny Granger for Rudy G*y. I would do THAT trade in a heartbeat. Honestly, I would consider that trade first before I would consider the Melo trade.

Amare over Tyler...that's too easy. We need a better PnR player, and Amare fits the bill easily.

vnzla81
02-25-2012, 03:11 PM
Amare over Tyler that's easy, no s*** :lol:

Justin Tyme
02-25-2012, 03:14 PM
All the talk of Melo not being a winner: last I checked he's made the playoffs every season. If that's your argument, then look in the mirror because Granger has missed the playoffs but twice.


That's such a terrible statement to make! Granger for those years never had the players Melo played with to get to the playoffs, and he didn't have George Karl as a coach. 3 1/2 years of Jimmy and his "helter skelter run n gun with little system" doesn't get Granger to the playoffs. Swap Granger and Melo teams those years, and Denver and the Pacers results would still be the same. Granger in the playoffs with Melo wishing he was in the playoffs. Granger a winner and Melo a loser. Poor very poor statement you made.

OlBlu
02-25-2012, 03:22 PM
That's such a terrible statement to make! Granger for those years never had the players Melo played with to get to the playoffs, and he didn't have George Karl as a coach. 3 1/2 years of Jimmy and his "helter skelter run n gun with little system" doesn't get Granger to the playoffs. Swap Granger and Melo teams those years, and Denver and the Pacers results would still be the same. Granger in the playoffs with Melo wishing he was in the playoffs. Granger a winner and Melo a loser. Poor very poor statement you made.

I think he had it exactly right and if you made that swap you suggested the Pacers would have been much better and probably would have made the playoffs. ......:cool:

ksuttonjr76
02-25-2012, 03:28 PM
I think he had it exactly right and if you made that swap you suggested the Pacers would have been much better and probably would have made the playoffs. ......:cool:

Doubt it. Melo's 3PT percentage wouldn't have been high enough for JOB's system to work.

15th parallel
02-25-2012, 03:39 PM
There's no doubt that Melo's the more talented one. But like the others have said, it's Danny being the team player favors him over Melo. In Danny's case at least, you have no Melo-drama that just became the Nuggets team's distraction last year. A pro that sticks with a struggling team, even if he's shown his frustrations over losing the last 3 years. A pro that's all business despite those trade rumors. A pro that knows to defer to his teammates as he is showing right now. While those are "homer" type of reasons, those a the reasons why I like having a Danny Granger in a Pacer uniform.

With the current success of the team, it simply shows that Melo will not fit in what this team is trying to do, and trying to prove. Danny struggling still nets us more wins that the Knicks with Melo. Why? Because of defense, balanced scoring, and having players that trusts each other and distribute the scoring load (our best scorer still hasn't reached the 20ppg average btw). Of course, it may still be not enough to win it all, but there's a chance that this group will make something special.

15th parallel
02-25-2012, 03:50 PM
Melo is one of my least favorite people in the NBA and it'd be extremely difficult to root for him, but I would be silly to not take him over Granger.

All the talk of Melo not being a winner: last I checked he's made the playoffs every season. If that's your argument, then look in the mirror because Granger has missed the playoffs but twice.

Melo and Granger have the same top skill which is scoring. Melo is light years ahead of Danny as a scorer; he is elite. As far as team basketball, ask Mike K who coached him in the Olympics. He said he was one of the best, if not the best team player on the team.

I understand the hatred of Melo and the homerism for Granger but I think Melo is considerably better. At the least you can flip Melo for better assets than Granger.

Well, it's not like Melo is not a team player, but like in Denver you can see how he likes to carry the scoring load by himself. George Karl during his early years at Denver even limited Melo at some point because of this. While being an elite scorer does help his team, it also causes the falldown wherein he becomes the "lone hero", that his offensive output per game determines the Nuggets success. Plus the distraction he caused last year just causes tension in the locker room last year. Denver was quite lucky because they netted more assets with the Melo trade, and that's where I agree with you (that Melo can net you more assets than Danny).

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 03:56 PM
At the least you can flip Melo for better assets than Granger.

That's a valid point. If we could get Melo and immediately ship him off for a crazy good deal (Melo for a great young player and a 1st pick) then I'd do it. As long as Melo never plays a game as a Pacer :)

ballism
02-25-2012, 04:02 PM
At the least you can flip Melo for better assets than Granger.

Indeed. Although if we had Melo, we'd be discussing "Do you trade Melo for LeBron?"

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 04:06 PM
Indeed. Although if we had Melo, we'd be discussing "Do you trade Melo for LeBron?"

Why? It's a pretty clear upgrade talent-wise and LeBron is also more of a team player. So, who would have really said no? :p

ksuttonjr76
02-25-2012, 04:09 PM
Why? It's a pretty clear upgrade talent-wise and LeBron is also more of a team player? So, who would have really said no? :p

The people who moved from Cleveland to Indianapolis ;) .

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 04:11 PM
The people who moved from Cleveland to Indianapolis ;) .

Touché :p

Anthem
02-25-2012, 04:11 PM
That's a valid point. If we could get Melo and immediately ship him off for a crazy good deal (Melo for a great young player and a 1st pick) then I'd do it. As long as Melo never plays a game as a Pacer :)
:laugh: Okay, that's kinda cheating. Nobody doubts that Melo's the more valuable asset, league-wide. Also, it's very possible that Melo could buy into Vogel's system and D up. He's certainly got the physical tools.

We'll see what happens this year. In a vacuum, New York is the more talented team. But I expect us to end with a better record.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 04:16 PM
Indeed. Although if we had Melo, we'd be discussing "Do you trade Melo for LeBron?"

Well, we'd probably be discussing that with ourselves because Miami wouldn't take a second to hang up. Pat Riley is no fool.

I remember when LeBron and Melo were compared, but today there really is no comparison. LeBron is probably my least favorite player in the NBA, but you have to tip your hat to him. LeBron actually sees the floor very well and has absolutely no problem sharing the ball. LeBron can also lock you up on defense. Those are the things that Melo simply cannot or will not do.

dal9
02-25-2012, 04:23 PM
To be fair, so is Tyler.

I think Ken was pointing this out by using (not-so) subtle humor

ballism
02-25-2012, 04:59 PM
Well, we'd probably be discussing that with ourselves because Miami wouldn't take a second to hang up. Pat Riley is no fool.


as opposed to now? :p

xBulletproof
02-25-2012, 05:22 PM
I remember when LeBron and Melo were compared, but today there really is no comparison.

I remember those conversations too, but there never was a comparison. Lebron has always been 3 steps ahead of Carmelo. I would have taken Junior year high school Lebron over 2nd year NBA Carmelo.

yoadknux
02-25-2012, 05:23 PM
Melo is the most explosive player in the league in my opinion. One of the best scorers. One of the best clutch players.
He's a much, much much much much much better player than Granger.
Will he make us better though, as a team? I don't know. He's just not much of a team player. Seems to care more about his pose, or swag.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 05:34 PM
His career shooting percentage is 46 percent, which is much better than Danny Grangers BTW. And he's shooting better this year too. I'm not sure how a guy who scores less points, less effeciently is somehow as good as someone who is widely considered a top 5-10 player at any position, on Earth.

If we had Melo we wouldn't be next to last in attendance, that's for certain. It could be a wise investment.

Let me help untangle this for you. Start with defense. Also, being a top 5-10 player in the league in terms of the ability to score one-on-one is not the same as being a top 5-10 player at any position on earth. Melo is the former, not the latter.

BTW, nobody should be claiming that Danny is as talented an offensive player as Melo. Also, Melo is almost certainly considered more valuable league wide. I agree with all of that. But I don't agree that he should be considered more valuable to many teams simply because of the way he plays the game and how that affects the performance of other players. This all comes down to him ball-hogging and forcing tough shots. I've seen it too many times. In contrast, Granger's shots are going down as the talent on the team rises.

So...what I'm saying is that Granger fits into the team concept better...at least in most situations. Maybe not all, but on the Knicks for example, I have no doubt that Granger would help them more than Melo.

mattie
02-25-2012, 06:19 PM
It depends on the system. In some instances, Granger is better than 'Melo because he'll work ANYWHERE. He plays defense and he scores. 'Melo is like Dirk. A dominate scorer than needs to be surrounded by a great team defense.

Here in Indiana? I think 'Melo would kill it. We need that dominate offense. We have other players that play defense. So Yes here, in Indy, I'd definitely take 'Melo over Granger. But again, in a lot of systems, Granger is more valuable as he is cheaper, he can fit anywhere because he can play defense, and would contribute to more wins in most scenarios.

mattie
02-25-2012, 06:26 PM
This is bizarre to the level that I'm not sure I can this board seriously anymore. I'm not sure some of you even watch basketball with this fake story line that Carmello is a non sharing chucker but Danny is some basketball savvy guy that stops shooting when he isn't hitting.

No one is discounting 'Melo's awesome abilities on offense. You just have to realize there is more to winning than just being a scorer.

Check these stats out, it's not us! The stats are telling us this:

http://www.82games.com/1112/11IND7.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1112/11NYK9.HTM

With Danny on the court, the Pacers net an extra 14.7 points per 100 possessions. That's insane. That's higher than Dwight Howard!

Danny, despite being a horrible passer, helps the offense because he shoots within the offense, and despite his low rebound numbers, he's very opportunistic on the offensive boards.

He's probably just as much of a threat protecting the rim as Roy Hibbert.

'Melo on the other hand gives the Knicks a net positive of .4 points per 100 possessions with him on the court versus off.

He also has a max contract versus Grangers 13 mil a year. So really, is it that absurd to say the guy who is cheaper, is making his team better statistically, could be a better option for teams?

I still don't think that means 'Melo sucks though. I just think he's a great example of an excellent scorer than needs to be surrounded by defense and you'll see him lead a great team. 'Melo is a fantastic talent. He just needs to be on the right team.

mattie
02-25-2012, 06:29 PM
For all of you that are saying that 'Melo is obviously better than Granger. This is exactly what you're saying: You're saying the guy that costs less, and statistically is proven to make his team much better, is inferior to a guy that costs more, and statistically has almost has no effect when he's on the court.

Who's insane now?

Naptown_Seth
02-25-2012, 06:34 PM
This was brought up on Mike and Mike I think, where someone listed teams that would jump at a chance to acquire Melo and had the Pacers as one of them. I found the idea that Danny for Melo was "obvious" to be way over the top and totally missing some of the key issues going with both guys.

Yes, Melo is a great scoring machine. Melo also has been clutch at scoring late in games.

But that's been it much of the time. He isn't a great defender and he appears very disruptive even though he claims to be all about the team, etc. There is no denying a pattern with him leaving Denver and coming to NY.

Danny's shooting sucks right now, there's no questioning that after the last couple of games of backslide. But even with that he's been nicely aggressive on defense and stays pretty motivated on that end most of the time. If he could shore up his FG% (shot selection would help here too), the Pacers not only wouldn't have a problem, they'd really be back in the "formidable" discussion.

To me Melo fixes the scoring but costs you defense and chemistry.

Plus I think Danny is more willing to share FGAs with David, Roy, DC and George (as it should be) than Melo would be. The team has 5 guys all worthy of 15 FGAs per game. It takes mature men to understand that they have to share those amongst each other, and that it can work.


Melo as the clear #1 scoring option on a team with mostly defenders and a couple of clearly 2nd tier scorers who each take half the number of shots Melo takes seems like the best fit.

Justin Tyme
02-25-2012, 06:40 PM
I think he had it exactly right and if you made that swap you suggested the Pacers would have been much better and probably would have made the playoffs. ......:cool:

So you are saying in Jimmy's system Melo was the difference maker in the Pacers making the playoffs. I guess Melo is faster than a speeding bullet, can jump over tall buildings, and stronger than a locomotive. If he's so dadgum great how come the Nuggets could only get out of the 1st round one time while he was there? That's right ONE TIME OUT OF THE FIRST ROUND!!! LOL!

OlBlu
02-25-2012, 06:43 PM
[QUOTE=Naptown_Seth;1382483]This was brought up on Mike and Mike I think, where someone listed teams that would jump at a chance to acquire Melo and had the Pacers as one of them. I found the idea that Danny for Melo was "obvious" to be way over the top and totally missing some of the key issues going with both guys.

Yes, Melo is a great scoring machine. Melo also has been clutch at scoring late in games.

But that's been it much of the time. He isn't a great defender and he appears very disruptive even though he claims to be all about the team, etc. There is no denying a pattern with him leaving Denver and coming to NY.

Danny's shooting sucks right now, there's no questioning that after the last couple of games of backslide. But even with that he's been nicely aggressive on defense and stays pretty motivated on that end most of the time. If he could shore up his FG% (shot selection would help here too), the Pacers not only wouldn't have a problem, they'd really be back in the "formidable" discussion.

To me Melo fixes the scoring but costs you defense and chemistry.

Melo is a much better defender than Granger.... He has to be motivated. Danny just can't do it. Melo can also get to the basket. Granger can't and that results in to many prayer threes............ Give me Melo everytime. I think he will blend in well with Lin, it will just take a few games. It was Melo who suggested that Lin be given a chance......:cool:

Naptown_Seth
02-25-2012, 06:44 PM
Help defense - Melo is a much, much, much better player than Granger???

Please.

Physically defending one on one - Melo is a much, much, much better player than Granger???

Again, this just isn't remotely close to being true.


And Imawhat, I understand the playoff argument....until you look at what Denver did WITHOUT Melo and what happened to NYC whem Melo got there. Making the playoffs with a team that was going to do that (better) without you doesn't prove anything.


Right now LIN has done more for the Knicks' playoff chances this season. I don't think Lin is a better player at all, but there is no way around the facts that Lin's run of wins is the only reason why the Knicks are inside the top 8 instead of outside.

OlBlu
02-25-2012, 06:45 PM
So you are saying in Jimmy's system Melo was the difference maker in the Pacers making the playoffs. I guess Melo is faster than a speeding bullet, can jump over tall buildings, and stronger than a locomotive. If he's so dadgum great how come the Nuggets could only get out of the 1st round one time while he was there? That's right ONE TIME OUT OF THE FIRST ROUND!!! LOL!

They didn't have much a team to go with him. It will be interesting to see if they get out of the first round without him. I see the Knicks getting better every week and pursuing the Pacers for their spot in the playoffs. Melo would have scored inside along with making threes........:cool:

Justin Tyme
02-25-2012, 06:49 PM
No one is discounting 'Melo's awesome abilities on offense. You just have to realize there is more to winning than just being a scorer.

Check these stats out, it's not us! The stats are telling us this:

http://www.82games.com/1112/11IND7.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1112/11NYK9.HTM

With Danny on the court, the Pacers net an extra 14.7 points per 100 possessions. That's insane. That's higher than Dwight Howard!

Danny, despite being a horrible passer, helps the offense because he shoots within the offense, and despite his low rebound numbers, he's very opportunistic on the offensive boards.

He's probably just as much of a threat protecting the rim as Roy Hibbert.

'Melo on the other hand gives the Knicks a net positive of .4 points per 100 possessions with him on the court versus off.

He also has a max contract versus Grangers 13 mil a year. So really, is it that absurd to say the guy who is cheaper, is making his team better statistically, could be a better option for teams?

I still don't think that means 'Melo sucks though. I just think he's a great example of an excellent scorer than needs to be surrounded by defense and you'll see him lead a great team. 'Melo is a fantastic talent. He just needs to be on the right team.


The right team isn't the Knicks. They don't play "D" nor do they have a coach who stresses "D". Reminds me of another coach no long ago.

Naptown_Seth
02-25-2012, 06:50 PM
Melo is a much better defender than Granger.... He has to be motivated. Danny just can't do it.
Danny can't defend?? You mean apart from all the blocks, disruptions, steals, tips and floor space denial? Yes, other than that he's not that good.

And somehow he's able to SELF motivate, whereas you are admitting that motivation is part of Melo's problem. That's a BIG problem. Karl is a good, winning coach and Denver was a good team. But he needed more motivation? He got the trade to NYC like he wanted and he still needed motivation.

At some point you stop needing outside motivation and start being a person that just doesn't give a s***.

Melo excels (normally) when defense isn't critical (like Team USA or AS games).



Whether or not it "hurt" when Danny got his "false" teeth bashed out when Pierce landed on him and drove his face into the court (I'm going with it still hurt like h*** to have your face smacked into the floor), the dude got up, immediately went to the locker room and BEFORE THE END OF THE TIMEOUT he was back out and checking right back into the game.

People forget that this wasn't Danny coming back later, this was Danny not missing any game time at all.


Only die hard Melo fans picture him having a similar reaction. That's a wide gap when it comes to motivation.

Taterhead
02-25-2012, 06:51 PM
Let me help untangle this for you. Start with defense. Also, being a top 5-10 player in the league in terms of the ability to score one-on-one is not the same as being a top 5-10 player at any position on earth. Melo is the former, not the latter.

BTW, nobody should be claiming that Danny is as talented an offensive player as Melo. Also, Melo is almost certainly considered more valuable league wide. I agree with all of that. But I don't agree that he should be considered more valuable to many teams simply because of the way he plays the game and how that affects the performance of other players. This all comes down to him ball-hogging and forcing tough shots. I've seen it too many times. In contrast, Granger's shots are going down as the talent on the team rises.

So...what I'm saying is that Granger fits into the team concept better...at least in most situations. Maybe not all, but on the Knicks for example, I have no doubt that Granger would help them more than Melo.

Anyways, I think your personal distaste for Carmelo Anthony is clouding your judgement on this. Derrick Rose plays selfishly at times. So does Kobe. Great players traditionally play selfish basketball at times. That doesn't mean that Joe Johnson is better for the Hawks than Kobe would be, or that Rajon Rondo would be better for the Bulls. When you are a great offensive player you are allowed to play that way to a point.

No team with Carmelo Anthony wants him to be out there making swing passes to Iman Shumpert and Landry Fields. They want him in the game looking to score. And that is what he does as well as anyone in basketball.

I'll just leave it at that.

mattie
02-25-2012, 06:54 PM
The right team isn't the Knicks. They don't play "D" nor do they have a coach who stresses "D". Reminds me of another coach no long ago.

Exactly.

But see I actually like 'Melo. I don't think he's a cancer, I don't think he's a problem. He's a very 1 dimensional player that needs the right system. If everyone sees him exactly as he is, you'll see his true value.

Kind of reminds me of how Philly hated Iggy for so long. They wanted him to be something he wasn't Iggy is a distributor and defensive player. Not a 1 on 1 threat. Likewise, 'Melo is 1 dimensional as well. He's probably the most skilled 1 on 1 player in the league. Put him in the correct system and that team will challenge any team in the league.

By the way, to explain 'Melo's terrible numbers this season: His dumbass coach had him playing point forward all season. Just terrible coaching. 'Melo would be playing much better had he been playing his correct position.

Pacersalltheway10
02-25-2012, 06:54 PM
[QUOTE=Naptown_Seth;1382483]This was brought up on Mike and Mike I think, where someone listed teams that would jump at a chance to acquire Melo and had the Pacers as one of them. I found the idea that Danny for Melo was "obvious" to be way over the top and totally missing some of the key issues going with both guys.

Yes, Melo is a great scoring machine. Melo also has been clutch at scoring late in games.

But that's been it much of the time. He isn't a great defender and he appears very disruptive even though he claims to be all about the team, etc. There is no denying a pattern with him leaving Denver and coming to NY.

Danny's shooting sucks right now, there's no questioning that after the last couple of games of backslide. But even with that he's been nicely aggressive on defense and stays pretty motivated on that end most of the time. If he could shore up his FG% (shot selection would help here too), the Pacers not only wouldn't have a problem, they'd really be back in the "formidable" discussion.

To me Melo fixes the scoring but costs you defense and chemistry.

Melo is a much better defender than Granger.... He has to be motivated. Danny just can't do it. Melo can also get to the basket. Granger can't and that results in to many prayer threes............ Give me Melo everytime. I think he will blend in well with Lin, it will just take a few games. It was Melo who suggested that Lin be given a chance......:cool:

Do you even watch the games? (seriously, seeing that you travel)

Naptown_Seth
02-25-2012, 06:56 PM
And none of this removes the questions on Danny's scoring. That's an issue without a doubt. But what's keeping people (most of them) from turning against Danny is that regardless of poor shooting he keeps working hard at both ends.

Danny should be questioned when it comes to his scoring and he is tradeable since the whole team is if the offer is right, but in his case the return offer has to fit what remains when you ship Danny out. And Melo doesn't fit that gap the right way.


When people bring up Gay or Iggy, now we start getting closer to tough calls or tempting offers. Because I've come to really like Danny as a Pacer, I'd hate to see him go period. But at least in those cases I'd feel like the person returning was a good fit for the void left behind.

OlBlu
02-25-2012, 06:56 PM
Danny can't defend?? You mean apart from all the blocks, disruptions, steals, tips and floor space denial? Yes, other than that he's not that good.

And somehow he's able to SELF motivate, whereas you are admitting that motivation is part of Melo's problem. That's a BIG problem. Karl is a good, winning coach and Denver was a good team. But he needed more motivation? He got the trade to NYC like he wanted and he still needed motivation.

At some point you stop needing outside motivation and start being a person that just doesn't give a s***.

Melo excels (normally) when defense isn't critical (like Team USA or AS games).



Whether or not it "hurt" when Danny got his "false" teeth bashed out when Pierce landed on him and drove his face into the court (I'm going with it still hurt like h*** to have your face smacked into the floor), the dude got up, immediately went to the locker room and BEFORE THE END OF THE TIMEOUT he was back out and checking right back into the game.

People forget that this wasn't Danny coming back later, this was Danny not missing any game time at all.


Only die hard Melo fans picture him having a similar reaction. That's a wide gap when it comes to motivation.


Well, I will leave it to Coach K. He wouldn't let Granger near the floor and cut him from the National team this year. However, he said Melo was probably the best all around player on the team and a great defender. Who do you think I believe, the Coach or you and what I see in both of their games. The whole team doesn't defend much in the present NY system but that doesn't mean that Melo can't defend and do it very well. Granger is not a pimple on Melo's ***, there is that much difference. The difference between a top ten player in the NBA and player who many rate as not even being in the top 50. I know that some do but others do not. Melo is almost universally considered to be a superstar. By the end of this year and playoff time that will become clear........:cool:

OlBlu
02-25-2012, 06:58 PM
[QUOTE=Naptown_Seth;1382496]And none of this removes the questions on Danny's scoring. That's an issue without a doubt. But what's keeping people (most of them) from turning against Danny is that regardless of poor shooting he keeps working hard at both ends.


You are deluding yourself. Granger does not play hard on both ends. He is a big defensive libility and everyone in the league but a few diehard Pacers fan know this.....:cool:

Naptown_Seth
02-25-2012, 06:58 PM
No team with Carmelo Anthony wants him to be out there making swing passes to Iman Shumpert and Landry Fields.
ALL TEAMS want him making those passes. That's how Melo ends up getting a BETTER shot later in the play. That's the problem. He's got Kobe/AI syndrome.

Congrats, you made some really tough shots. Meanwhile Dorkus McSucksalot just went 3-3 on dunks at the rim because those are extremely easy if you just give your team a chance to get you the ball in the right spot.

Greatness includes the confidence that your teammates will return the ball to you later if the play works to get you a better shot (ie, you keep working to get open and in better position).

mattie
02-25-2012, 07:02 PM
By the way, wanted to add this:

Saying 'Melo doesn't make his teams better because Denver was better without him would be similar to saying Granger doesn't make his teams better because the Pacers didn't make the playoffs but two of Granger's entire career. It's just not a fair argument.

Denver was better because the Knicks were stupid and gave away all their talent. Danny's teams never made the playoffs because he NEVER had talent. It's just not fair.

Both make their teams better. 'Melo is having a minimal effect right now (though honestly I think he and Lin are going to click) because he's in a terrible situation. He needs to be surrounded, like I said many times before, by defensive players.

Taterhead
02-25-2012, 07:14 PM
Danny can't defend?? You mean apart from all the blocks, disruptions, steals, tips and floor space denial? Yes, other than that he's not that good.

And somehow he's able to SELF motivate, whereas you are admitting that motivation is part of Melo's problem. That's a BIG problem. Karl is a good, winning coach and Denver was a good team. But he needed more motivation? He got the trade to NYC like he wanted and he still needed motivation.

At some point you stop needing outside motivation and start being a person that just doesn't give a s***.

Melo excels (normally) when defense isn't critical (like Team USA or AS games).



Whether or not it "hurt" when Danny got his "false" teeth bashed out when Pierce landed on him and drove his face into the court (I'm going with it still hurt like h*** to have your face smacked into the floor), the dude got up, immediately went to the locker room and BEFORE THE END OF THE TIMEOUT he was back out and checking right back into the game.

People forget that this wasn't Danny coming back later, this was Danny not missing any game time at all.


Only die hard Melo fans picture him having a similar reaction. That's a wide gap when it comes to motivation.

No he's not a good defender because of his lack of defensive awareness and intelligence. He gets blocks and steals because he has really long arms. Blocks and steals, which he doesn't get a ton of anyways, are not a sign of good defense. Holding your man to poor shooting every night is.

Anyways.....

Carmelo: 1.1 SPG 0.5 BPG

Danny: 1.1 SPG 0.9 BPG

Yeah what a difference.

Danny doesn't even make the All Star team, and he rides the bench on team USA. I don't understand that statement.

BTW, this tooth thing is hilarious. First off, it was a bridge, not a tooth. Secondly, I have chipped a real tooth before, and it doesn't even register on my list of most painful things I've experienced. I didn't have it fixed for months due to lack of insurance, and didn't even miss a day of work.

If he was tough you wouldn't have to go back a couple of years to find an example. And if he was anywhere as good as Melo, you wouldn't have to try and tear him down to Danny's level to make a fair comparison.


ALL TEAMS want him making those passes. That's how Melo ends up getting a BETTER shot later in the play. That's the problem. He's got Kobe/AI syndrome.

Congrats, you made some really tough shots. Meanwhile Dorkus McSucksalot just went 3-3 on dunks at the rim because those are extremely easy if you just give your team a chance to get you the ball in the right spot.

Greatness includes the confidence that your teammates will return the ball to you later if the play works to get you a better shot (ie, you keep working to get open and in better position).

And this is Danny Grangers strength? Thats hilarious.

Melo passes the ball much better than Danny and always has. He creates better passing opportunities due to his flexibility too.

The Knicks want Carmelo demanding the other teams attention. That opens it up for other players.

vnzla81
02-25-2012, 07:14 PM
Yep and now Seth moved from "Mcbob's mode" to "Danny Granger's mode" :computer:

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 07:46 PM
No one is discounting 'Melo's awesome abilities on offense. You just have to realize there is more to winning than just being a scorer.

Check these stats out, it's not us! The stats are telling us this:

http://www.82games.com/1112/11IND7.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1112/11NYK9.HTM

With Danny on the court, the Pacers net an extra 14.7 points per 100 possessions. That's insane. That's higher than Dwight Howard!

Danny, despite being a horrible passer, helps the offense because he shoots within the offense, and despite his low rebound numbers, he's very opportunistic on the offensive boards.

He's probably just as much of a threat protecting the rim as Roy Hibbert.

'Melo on the other hand gives the Knicks a net positive of .4 points per 100 possessions with him on the court versus off.

He also has a max contract versus Grangers 13 mil a year. So really, is it that absurd to say the guy who is cheaper, is making his team better statistically, could be a better option for teams?

I still don't think that means 'Melo sucks though. I just think he's a great example of an excellent scorer than needs to be surrounded by defense and you'll see him lead a great team. 'Melo is a fantastic talent. He just needs to be on the right team.

This is the best post in this thread.

BTW, Melo needs to be on that Philly team Iverson took to the finals. Now THAT team is one where Melo is a better option. Problem is, most teams are not like that Sixers team. Most teams have other guys who want to shoot the ball.

I'm seriously shocked they didn't have two basketballs on the floor when JR Smith, Al Harrington and Melo were on the same team for that brief period. Thank goodness they made a trade. People would be hoarding basketballs all over the nation.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 07:50 PM
OMG. This is unreal. I've been tearing Danny Granger apart for his defense for years now and now people are setting him beside Melo. I repent!

Seriously, anyone who doesn't recognize Granger's improvement on D this season has either not been watching him...or they didn't watch him before. But even so, Granger's defense pre-Vogel was probably Melo level. That's why Danny didn't make All Star teams. But that has changed folks. There's a big difference in how he's playing defense now versus past seasons.

...and this is coming from a Granger hater...

Nuntius
02-25-2012, 07:54 PM
This thread has really gotten unreal the last 4-5 pages. Seeing several guys who regard themselves Granger haters actually defending him has to be one of the weirdest PD experiences I've had in my still young PD "career" :p

By the way, excellent points, mattie.

BlueNGold
02-25-2012, 08:17 PM
Well, I will leave it to Coach K. He wouldn't let Granger near the floor and cut him from the National team this year. However, he said Melo was probably the best all around player on the team and a great defender. Who do you think I believe, the Coach or you and what I see in both of their games. The whole team doesn't defend much in the present NY system but that doesn't mean that Melo can't defend and do it very well. Granger is not a pimple on Melo's ***, there is that much difference. The difference between a top ten player in the NBA and player who many rate as not even being in the top 50. I know that some do but others do not. Melo is almost universally considered to be a superstar. By the end of this year and playoff time that will become clear........:cool:

If I thought Danny Granger would play defense like he did under Jim O'Brien, I would take back everything I've said in this thread. That's why coach K didn't want any part of Granger.

But I know that's not happening under Vogel. Watch the games people!

Anthem
02-25-2012, 09:35 PM
BTW, this tooth thing is hilarious. First off, it was a bridge, not a tooth. Secondly, I have chipped a real tooth before, and it doesn't even register on my list of most painful things I've experienced. I didn't have it fixed for months due to lack of insurance, and didn't even miss a day of work.
Wow, you're pretty tough. Did your chipped tooth look like this?

http://www.bothteamsplayedhard.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/granger-teeth-2.jpg

EDIT: And it's been confirmed multiple times that it was his real teeth, not just a crown.

Justin Tyme
02-25-2012, 10:51 PM
They didn't have much a team to go with him.


Where do you come up with these outlandish statements?? Do you even watch BB teams other than the Pacers? Do some research on who played with Melo in Denver then get back with us. You do realize Denver went to the WCF, right?

OlBlu
02-25-2012, 10:57 PM
Where do you come up with these outlandish statements?? Do you even watch BB teams other than the Pacers? Do some research on who played with Melo in Denver then get back with us. You do realize Denver went to the WCF, right?

I do realize that. I also realize that Denver got a whole lot better with the load of players they got from NY for Melo.....:cool:

Taterhead
02-26-2012, 01:46 AM
Wow, you're pretty tough. Did your chipped tooth look like this?

http://www.bothteamsplayedhard.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/granger-teeth-2.jpg

EDIT: And it's been confirmed multiple times that it was his real teeth, not just a crown.

I heard Danny himself say it was a bridge, not his real teeth.

And no, I am not very tough. Just grew up poor my friend.

lol, the dude is freaking smiling in the pic. I mean surely it hurts like hell right? I think you can tell when someone is in agonizing pain, and he doesn't look like he is.


No one is discounting 'Melo's awesome abilities on offense. You just have to realize there is more to winning than just being a scorer.

Check these stats out, it's not us! The stats are telling us this:

http://www.82games.com/1112/11IND7.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1112/11NYK9.HTM

With Danny on the court, the Pacers net an extra 14.7 points per 100 possessions. That's insane. That's higher than Dwight Howard!

Danny, despite being a horrible passer, helps the offense because he shoots within the offense, and despite his low rebound numbers, he's very opportunistic on the offensive boards.

He's probably just as much of a threat protecting the rim as Roy Hibbert.

'Melo on the other hand gives the Knicks a net positive of .4 points per 100 possessions with him on the court versus off.

He also has a max contract versus Grangers 13 mil a year. So really, is it that absurd to say the guy who is cheaper, is making his team better statistically, could be a better option for teams?

I still don't think that means 'Melo sucks though. I just think he's a great example of an excellent scorer than needs to be surrounded by defense and you'll see him lead a great team. 'Melo is a fantastic talent. He just needs to be on the right team.

That is a team statistic mattie. It has nothing to do with Danny Grangers game. Which might explain why he rates higher than one of the best big men ever to play.

For example, if the Pacers bench was horrible and had trouble scoring, wouldn't that inflate the statistic in Danny's favor? And if Dwight Howard's team had a great bench, wouldn't that affect his statistic negatively?

A statistic is no good if you don't process the data correctly.

Someone please explain to me how that stat say anything other than that when Danny is off the floor, we struggle to score?

Sherlock
02-26-2012, 05:53 AM
I can imagine that if we put this question in the forums of others teams how fans of the others teams would laugh off the question.

How homey the Pacers fans are! ;)

CJ Jones
02-26-2012, 06:41 AM
A statistic is no good if you don't process the data correctly.

Someone please explain to me how that stat say anything other than that when Danny is off the floor, we struggle to score?

I've realized people can find an advanced stat to prove damn near any point. No matter how ridiculous.

Nuntius
02-26-2012, 07:09 AM
For example, if the Pacers bench was horrible and had trouble scoring, wouldn't that inflate the statistic in Danny's favor?

Ok, I hear you.

The Pacers bench has trouble scoring. This could indeed inflate the statistic in Danny's favor.

Let's approach this argument from a different angle now. The Knicks bench does not have trouble scoring and manages to not lose out when Melo is not on the court.

So, the Knicks bench can score well enough to keep on pace with Melo's scoring whereas The Pacers bench cannot score well enough to keep on pace with Danny's scoring.

This means that they have a better bench if I am not mistaken, right?

I mean they do score more than our bench so they have to be better.

So, we have this:

Knicks bench > Pacers bench

Now, let us go to the starters.

Let's compare them head to head. I'll try to post what seems more reasonable according to a 3rd party and not what I believe personally:

Lin > DC
Fields = George (ok, George could probably be slightly better than Fields but most people would place them in a similar spot at the moment)
Melo > Granger
Amar'e > West
Chandler = Hibbert (similarly to George vs Fields, most people coming from a 3rd party would place them in the same range)

So, the Knicks starters are better than the Pacers starters.

Ultimately, we reach this equation:

Knicks Bench > Pacers Bench +

Knicks Starters > Pacers Starters =

Knicks Team < Pacers Team

Funny, isn't it?

ballism
02-26-2012, 09:37 AM
This means that they have a better bench if I am not mistaken, right?

I mean they do score more than our bench so they have to be better.

<...>

Ultimately, we reach this equation:

Knicks Bench > Pacers Bench +

Knicks Starters > Pacers Starters =

Knicks Team < Pacers Team

Funny, isn't it?


keep in mind, Lin is considered a "backup" when it comes to these stats.
And the Linsanity streak counts entirely towards the "bench" because Melo was injured (or to be correct, it's not really the "bench", it's "Melo is off the court").

Also, 82games have only processed ~28 games per team so far, which means the last few games are excluded.
Thus the "starting lineup" with Melo is mostly Shumpert-Fields-Melo-Stoudemire-Chandler.
And the "bench" is in large part Lin-Fields-Chandler + random pieces.

Basically, what the +/- says in this case, is that both Knicks Melo lineup and "bench" (in broad sense) have been winning lineups. They are both in the +. The one with Melo was slightly better.
The difference is so small mostly because Lin has been a much better starting point guard than Shumpert.

While when it comes to the Pacers, the bench has been atrocious. They've been wasting points at -8.3 points per 100 possessions. While the Knicks "bench"/Lin have been adding points. That's the bulk of the difference between Melo and Granger +/-.
The other part of the difference was that the Pacers' starting lineup (Collison/George/Granger/West/Hibbert) was better than Shumpert/Melo/etc lineup.

Either way, re the original +/- post...
That stat should never be used like that.
Durant is +0.5. Rose is +2.1. Rondo +1.6. Iguodala -1.5. Wade +1.8. Vince Carter on the other hand +17.7. Tyreke Evans +7. Allen Iverson the last year with the Nuggets +10.1.
Those numbers don't really say much about winning and passing, do they.

If you are going to use that, you really have to look into the context and specific lineups very carefully (even then, it's an extremely small sample size right now).

Nuntius
02-26-2012, 09:48 AM
You make a lot of valid points but Lin has started for the last 11 games. 11 games is a good enough sample to consider him a starter although what he did was indeed during Melo's injury.

Also, Novak is one of their most important assets off the bench. Just adding one more bench guy to the ones you mentioned.

That said, I don't disagree with most of what you said. Actually, I didn't even use the stat in my argument. All I wanted to point out is that we shouldn't rule the stat out without looking both sides of the argument ;)

ballism
02-26-2012, 10:10 AM
You make a lot of valid points but Lin has started for the last 11 games. 11 games is a good enough sample to consider him a starter although what he did was indeed during Melo's injury.


indeed.
i just meant that it's the reason why you end up with that "funny equation":


Knicks Bench > Pacers Bench +

Knicks Starters > Pacers Starters =

Knicks Team < Pacers Team

Funny, isn't it?

the Knicks bench might seem better than the Pacers bench because of Melo +/- numbers.
But the "Knicks bench" isn't really the Knicks bench in this case. It's Lin&co, even when Lin was starting.
I don't think that the "real" Knicks bench is better than ours. I think it's worse.

On the other hand, "Knicks < Pacers" might or might not be true now that Lin has emerged.
I think they have a better starting lineup now than we do, their bench is worse. But the Lin thing is close to making a midseason trade. It's a big change. We'll have to wait and see.

Anthem
02-26-2012, 12:03 PM
I heard Danny himself say it was a bridge, not his real teeth.

And no, I am not very tough. Just grew up poor my friend.

lol, the dude is freaking smiling in the pic. I mean surely it hurts like hell right? I think you can tell when someone is in agonizing pain, and he doesn't look like he is.
http://www.bothteamsplayedhard.net/2008/11/01/danny-granger-is-toothless/


UPDATE: I’m still not 100% positive that the knocked-out teeth in question were fake, but this note reminded me that Granger required some other dental surgery after taking a Kobe Bryant elbow to the mug like two years ago, which is the likely reason why he would have falsies.

Danny Granger had a front tooth knocked out of place while guarding Kobe Bryant last night.

The rookie got three shots to numb the pain and had the teeth yanked back into place by the team’s dentist. “It was the worst pain of my life,” he said. “I was squeezing his hands and screaming as loud as I could. I could hear it cracking when he pulled (the tooth) back. I think my root cracked.”

UPDATE: Don’t have a link, but they were real. He and the Pacer announcers said as much on TV. That musta hurt like a *****.

BlueNGold
02-26-2012, 12:50 PM
You don't lose your front teeth without some nerve damage, and nerve damage is going to hurt bad. I've felt that pain and it's extremely painful.

The only thing worse for me was an ulcer which felt as if someone stuck a dagger in my gut and connected it to an electrical outlet.

Justin Tyme
02-26-2012, 01:05 PM
I do realize that. I also realize that Denver got a whole lot better with the load of players they got from NY for Melo.....:cool:


What in the blue blazes does this have to do with your statement of "They didn't have much a team to go with him."? Personally, I don't think you know who Melo's team mates even were. If you did, you would never had made such a ridiculous statement.

Taterhead
02-26-2012, 01:06 PM
http://www.bothteamsplayedhard.net/2008/11/01/danny-granger-is-toothless/

Danny is not talking about the Paul Pierce incident in those quotes, he is talking about a completely separate incident involving Kobe Bryant and an elbow.

The teeth were fake. I stand behind what I said. I distinctly remember hearing Granger say so the first interview after it happened.

Not that is matters.

OlBlu
02-26-2012, 01:46 PM
What in the blue blazes does this have to do with your statement of "They didn't have much a team to go with him."? Personally, I don't think you know who Melo's team mates even were. If you did, you would never had made such a ridiculous statement.

I certainly know who his teammates were and I don't mind that you think they were better than I do. Denver tried desparately to keep Melo. They only made the trade because he was going to walk. That last year, I will admit that Melo was a distraction because he was going to leave. His play before that and even during that was great. How did they do after Melo left? How are they going to dot his year without him. That team was better with Melo that it is without him even with the talent transfusion from the Knicks........:cool:

Pacer Fan
02-26-2012, 03:00 PM
Danny is not talking about the Paul Pierce incident in those quotes, he is talking about a completely separate incident involving Kobe Bryant and an elbow.

The teeth were fake. I stand behind what I said. I distinctly remember hearing Granger say so the first interview after it happened.

Not that is matters.

Yea, He did say in a interview that wasn't the first time he had those teeth knocked out. I remember him saying that 100%. The 2 little bits of teeth showing in the pic was 2 post with porcelains attached. that is why they shattered on the floor. Not that it matters on here at all.



.

Dece
02-26-2012, 04:41 PM
So I've seen a lot of anti Melo guys dodge it, but... seriously, someone answer the following question, I'm curious how you rationalize it:

Why does Coach K bench Danny and ultimately force him off the team while loving Melo? Does Coach K not understand winning basketball? Maybe he doesn't value defense?

What's your answer?

OlBlu
02-26-2012, 04:51 PM
So I've seen a lot of anti Melo guys dodge it, but... seriously, someone answer the following question, I'm curious how you rationalize it:

Why does Coach K bench Danny and ultimately force him off the team while loving Melo? Does Coach K not understand winning basketball? Maybe he doesn't value defense?

What's your answer?

They won't have any answer for that one...... You didn't mention that Coach K thought Melo was the best and most important player on the team... Danny would not or could not play any defense at all. That is why he never saw the floor and he was dropped from the team.......:cool:

spreedom
02-26-2012, 05:29 PM
Probably because of every player in the NBA, the international game is tailored most to Melo's strengths.

And that still makes him 1-for-3 in the "make your team better" list...

Dece
02-26-2012, 06:05 PM
So you guys say Melo is a selfish-bad-shot-taking-no-defense-playing-chronic-loser.

International basketball is tailored to that?

Try again, this time at least make an effort at a plausible answer.

OlBlu
02-26-2012, 06:09 PM
So you guys say Melo is a selfish-bad-shot-taking-no-defense-playing-chronic-loser.

International basketball is tailored to that?

Try again, this time at least make an effort at a plausible answer.

That was very well said...... :cool:

vnzla81
02-26-2012, 06:10 PM
So you guys say Melo is a selfish-bad-shot-taking-no-defense-playing-chronic-loser.

International basketball is tailored to that?

Try again, this time at least make an effort at a plausible answer.

Could it be that coach K was tired of "team basketball" and decided to play no defense, selfish, bad shot taking basketball? :whoknows:

Anthem
02-26-2012, 06:14 PM
So I've seen a lot of anti Melo guys dodge it, but... seriously, someone answer the following question, I'm curious how you rationalize it:

Why does Coach K bench Danny and ultimately force him off the team while loving Melo? Does Coach K not understand winning basketball? Maybe he doesn't value defense?

What's your answer?
I'd have done the same thing. Danny was playing full-on ObieBall at that point... I hated his game. Take an athletic, multitalented, two-way player and make him into Steve Kerr? It's one of the two things I hated most about Obie's coaching.

If by some fluke this trade went down, I'd honestly talk myself into being excited for it. But mostly because I'd think that Vogel could bring Melo around.

vnzla81
02-26-2012, 08:49 PM
At the time Melo was also playing for a coach that doesn't care about D either, how come Melo found a way to adjust his game and play D and Danny didn't?

OlBlu
02-26-2012, 09:09 PM
At the time Melo was also playing for a coach that doesn't care about D either, how come Melo found a way to adjust his game and play D and Danny didn't?

The coach had nothing to do with it. Granger didn't play D for Carlisle either. Melo played good defense because he was asked to do so and he didn't have to carry all of the load on offense like he did in Denver. It is as simple as that.....:cool:

ballism
02-26-2012, 09:24 PM
tbh, i loved Granger's hustle and effort on D during his 1st and 2nd year under Carlisle. Then he became the focal point on O and his defensive effort started to deteriorate.

ballism
02-26-2012, 09:26 PM
Re international, I'm not sure why either Granger's or Melo's game wouldn't translate.
Offensively, their skillsets are very valuable with those rules.

OlBlu
02-26-2012, 09:39 PM
tbh, i loved Granger's hustle and effort on D during his 1st and 2nd year under Carlisle. Then he became the focal point on O and his defensive effort started to deteriorate.

He made an All Star team and decided scoring was his ticket. He gave up the rest of the game..........:cool:

He just isn't as good at it as Melo...

Hibbert
02-26-2012, 09:59 PM
He made an All Star team and decided scoring was his ticket. He gave up the rest of the game..........:cool:


Scoring is the only thing Carmelo knows.:cool:

Peck
02-27-2012, 01:31 AM
Could it be that coach K was tired of "team basketball" and decided to play no defense, selfish, bad shot taking basketball? :whoknows:

If that were the case then Monta Ellis actually has a shot of making the team.

RLeWorm
02-27-2012, 01:36 AM
not even close. Even though Carmelo is a ball hog he is the one of the best scorers in the game if not the best. I think since NY has nobody thats why he was so much of a black hole. He was in denver but there offense was still flowing maybe because of billups. Granger can't barely create his own shot because his handles are so weak.

Peck
02-27-2012, 01:38 AM
I just love the irony that some of you guys are actually using Danny Granger actually making team USA and not playing much as a slam at him.

You do realize that you are having to admit that he actually made the team, right?

It doesn't matter if he played 10 min or less, he made the team. The same can not be said of Rajon Rondo, Monta Ellis & several other players.

You can complain about a lot of things about Danny but making team USA is not one of them and neither is the fact that he actually was put on the all-star team. That bye the way is one more time than Jalen Rose ever made the all-star team.

Now having said all of that I'll say again. Carmelo is clearly the better player.

vnzla81
02-27-2012, 01:50 AM
If that were the case then Monta Ellis actually has a shot of making the team.

:tongue:

Edit: guys like Monta didn't make it because Kobe, Dwade and EJ were selected not because he can't play by the way.

presto123
02-27-2012, 01:51 AM
Carmelo might be the better player but he is still over-rated. No thanks.

vnzla81
02-27-2012, 01:58 AM
I just love the irony that some of you guys are actually using Danny Granger actually making team USA and not playing much as a slam at him.

You do realize that you are having to admit that he actually made the team, right?

It doesn't matter if he played 10 min or less, he made the team. The same can not be said of Rajon Rondo, Monta Ellis & several other players.

You can complain about a lot of things about Danny but making team USA is not one of them and neither is the fact that he actually was put on the all-star team. That bye the way is one more time than Jalen Rose ever made the all-star team.

Now having said all of that I'll say again. Carmelo is clearly the better player.

True that he made it to the team but it's also true that he didn't play much because he couldn't play D, coach K had guys like Iguadola and Gay playing in front of him, guys that if we have some kind of poll are considered less talented than Danny in PD.

Peck
02-27-2012, 03:06 AM
True that he made it to the team but it's also true that he didn't play much because he couldn't play D, coach K had guys like Iguadola and Gay playing in front of him, guys that if we have some kind of poll are considered less talented than Danny in PD.

It's a Pacers site, why wouldn't fans of the Pacers rate a player who is in the same bracket (you could argue one way or the other for any of them) as the other players listed? He's a Pacer for Goodness sake.

Now if we held a poll and everybody here rated him as high or higher than LeBron, Bryant, Durrant, Rose, Wade, Howard, etc. then you've got a beef.

But just because people aren't on here lamenting that Danny Granger sucks does not mean that anybody is on here saying he is the man.

Have you ever stopped to consider that some of the things he is being rated on here is not always basketball related? Loyalty, citizenship, character, personality, etc. all go into some people's thinking when they consider a player. Yes, there are those who are just all about the on court product and that is fine. But it's not for everyone.

Again though the main part of your argument is flawed. He could never have been set on the bench if he wasn't good enough to make the team to begin with.

Mackey_Rose
02-27-2012, 10:03 AM
It's a Pacers site, why wouldn't fans of the Pacers rate a player who is in the same bracket (you could argue one way or the other for any of them) as the other players listed? He's a Pacer for Goodness sake.

Now if we held a poll and everybody here rated him as high or higher than LeBron, Bryant, Durrant, Rose, Wade, Howard, etc. then you've got a beef.

But just because people aren't on here lamenting that Danny Granger sucks does not mean that anybody is on here saying he is the man.

Have you ever stopped to consider that some of the things he is being rated on here is not always basketball related? Loyalty, citizenship, character, personality, etc. all go into some people's thinking when they consider a player. Yes, there are those who are just all about the on court product and that is fine. But it's not for everyone.

Again though the main part of your argument is flawed. He could never have been set on the bench if he wasn't good enough to make the team to begin with.

I was pretty hesitant to even bother to comment in this thread, when I read it this morning. The poll alone is a pretty scathing indictment of the collective basketball acumen of this board. Shocking really.

I'd possibly agree with you if Danny Granger and Carmelo Anthony were "in the same bracket." They aren't. You'd never find a neutral party who would choose Granger over Anthony. They are different caliber players, so it really isn't fair to Granger to compare them. Melo is one of the few true superstars in the league. Granger is a pretty good player.

The only reason they should even really be compared to one another, is that they are, essentially, both pretty much one-dimensional scoring small forwards. Anthony is one of the best pure scorers in the game. Granger is a pretty good jump shooter. Melo has averaged 25 ppg for a season 5 times, never averaging fewer than 20 in his 9 seasons. He has averaged 24.7 for his career. Granger scored 25 a game one time, and has been on the decline ever since. He has averaged 18.2 for his career.

There is absolutely zero justification for the claim that a straight swap of Granger for Anthony would not make the Pacers, or any team for that matter, a better team. You'd have to be crazy, or more accurately, completely blinded by homerism, to think otherwise.

Peck
02-27-2012, 12:45 PM
I was pretty hesitant to even bother to comment in this thread, when I read it this morning. The poll alone is a pretty scathing indictment of the collective basketball acumen of this board. Shocking really.

I'd possibly agree with you if Danny Granger and Carmelo Anthony were "in the same bracket." They aren't. You'd never find a neutral party who would choose Granger over Anthony. They are different caliber players, so it really isn't fair to Granger to compare them. Melo is one of the few true superstars in the league. Granger is a pretty good player.

The only reason they should even really be compared to one another, is that they are, essentially, both pretty much one-dimensional scoring small forwards. Anthony is one of the best pure scorers in the game. Granger is a pretty good jump shooter. Melo has averaged 25 ppg for a season 5 times, never averaging fewer than 20 in his 9 seasons. He has averaged 24.7 for his career. Granger scored 25 a game one time, and has been on the decline ever since. He has averaged 18.2 for his career.

There is absolutely zero justification for the claim that a straight swap of Granger for Anthony would not make the Pacers, or any team for that matter, a better team. You'd have to be crazy, or more accurately, completely blinded by homerism, to think otherwise.

Well written.

However totally misdirected.

You missed the part where I was responding specifically to Vnzla81 post & I quote "because he couldn't play D, coach K had guys like Iguadola and Gay playing in front of him".

My comparison was for Granger vs. the above two mentioned players. This also was made further clear by this quote on the very last line of post # 232.

"Now having said all of that I'll say again. Carmelo is clearly the better player. "

Mackey_Rose
02-27-2012, 01:09 PM
Well written.

However totally misdirected.

You missed the part where I was responding specifically to Vnzla81 post & I quote "because he couldn't play D, coach K had guys like Iguadola and Gay playing in front of him".

My comparison was for Granger vs. the above two mentioned players. This also was made further clear by this quote on the very last line of post # 232.

"Now having said all of that I'll say again. Carmelo is clearly the better player. "

Fair enough. To be honest I never should have quoted your post. My response was more of a response to the thread, as a whole, and should not have read as a response to you, which it did.

I find more issue with the poll results, than I do any single post in the thread. Nearly 50% of all who've responded would prefer Granger to Carmelo at the same dollar point? That is ridiculous.

Trader Joe
02-27-2012, 01:20 PM
As long as Melo isn't a total locker room serial killer, you would do this all day.

Nuntius
02-27-2012, 01:27 PM
the Knicks bench might seem better than the Pacers bench because of Melo +/- numbers.
But the "Knicks bench" isn't really the Knicks bench in this case. It's Lin&co, even when Lin was starting.
I don't think that the "real" Knicks bench is better than ours. I think it's worse.

On the other hand, "Knicks < Pacers" might or might not be true now that Lin has emerged.
I think they have a better starting lineup now than we do, their bench is worse. But the Lin thing is close to making a midseason trade. It's a big change. We'll have to wait and see.

To be honest, the Knicks do not have as a tight rotation so their bench is somewhat mixed with their starters. So, yeah you have a point.

As for the Knicks < Pacers thingy. I cannot judge the Knicks yet. As you said, we'll have to wait and see. But it's Knicks that have to convince the rest of the world that they are better than what their record says. So, the ball is on their court ;)

vnzla81
02-27-2012, 01:29 PM
[QUOTE=Peck;1383506]It's a Pacers site, why wouldn't fans of the Pacers rate a player who is in the same bracket (you could argue one way or the other for any of them) as the other players listed? He's a Pacer for Goodness sake.

Now if we held a poll and everybody here rated him as high or higher than LeBron, Bryant, Durrant, Rose, Wade, Howard, etc. then you've got a beef.

I would put Melo in the same class as Durant, Wade, Lebron, Howard, that's the reason why I got a beef, Melo is a superstar.


But just because people aren't on here lamenting that Danny Granger sucks does not mean that anybody is on here saying he is the man.

Have you ever stopped to consider that some of the things he is being rated on here is not always basketball related? Loyalty, citizenship, character, personality, etc. all go into some people's thinking when they consider a player. Yes, there are those who are just all about the on court product and that is fine. But it's not for everyone.

I actually respect the people that are saying that they know Melo is better but they like Danny's character over Melo's I understand that, but telling me that Danny is better? that's what grinds my gears.



Again though the main part of your argument is flawed. He could never have been set on the bench if he wasn't good enough to make the team to begin with.


I've never say that he wasn't good enough to make the team, the part that I was replying to, was to the people that keep saying that Melo doesn't play any D but Danny does when in reality we all know that Danny didn't play that much on the National team because he couldn't or didn't want to play D, that's the true I'm not making that stuff up.

Peck
02-27-2012, 01:33 PM
I would put Melo in the same class as Durant, Wade, Lebron, Howard, that's the reason why I got a beef, Melo is a superstar.

So would I. I don't know how to say it any more clearly than by saying that Melo is the better player.

Nuntius
02-27-2012, 01:35 PM
Why does Coach K bench Danny and ultimately force him off the team while loving Melo? Does Coach K not understand winning basketball? Maybe he doesn't value defense?


I remember Coach K's team and its "defense" lose in Saitama to my country's national team. I remember Coach K playing winning basketball by benching Dwight Howard who was dominating our paint in order to play Bosh at the 5. Of course, Bosh was dominated by Schortsianitis, Kakiouzis and Dikoudis. It's not like Coach K never did anything wrong and is not subject to criticism.

Since86
02-27-2012, 01:37 PM
Danny doesn't get PT on the greatest team in the world, and it's used as an insult?

Nuntius
02-27-2012, 01:47 PM
I actually respect the people that are saying that they know Melo is better but they like Danny's character over Melo's I understand that, but telling me that Danny is better? that's what grinds my gears.


Then why are your gears grinded? No one said that Danny is a better overall basketball player. They all said that Melo is better. Because he is. No one can deny that.

Mackey_Rose
02-27-2012, 02:21 PM
Then why are your gears grinded? No one said that Danny is a better overall basketball player. They all said that Melo is better. Because he is. No one can Danny that.

The problem is, most of the reasoning used to prefer Danny are entirely fallacious. I'm just going to take a couple minutes to debunk my personal favorite. I expect more from Anthem, but this is his.

"Heck of a player, but not a winner."

Melo was drafted in 2003, after basically single-handedly carrying his Syracuse team to an NCAA title as a freshman. Until that 2003-2004 season, Denver hadn't made the playoffs since 1994-1995. In those 8 seasons between playoff appearances, the Nuggets won an average of about 21 games per year. His rookie season, they won 43 and finished 6th in the conference. In his 7 full seasons with the Nuggets, they won an average of more than 48 games per season, making the playoffs every single season. He won 42 of the 77 games he played in Denver and New York combined last year. He also made the playoffs last year with New York, and is well on his way to going back again this year.

He's also been one of the best players on an Olympic Gold Medal winner

Granger was drafted in 2005 after a good college career at New Mexico, where he led them to a 1st round tournament appearance. At the time of his drafting, the Pacers hadn't missed the playoffs since 1996-1997, and had made it 15 of the past 16 seasons before his arrival. As a rookie, Granger didn't play a huge role, but they did make the playoffs with a 41-41 record. As a Pacer, he's won an average of 36 games per year and made the playoffs twice.

We all know there were other extenuating circumstances that led to this precipitous fall, but there is no reason to pretend like Granger is the consummate winner, and Melo is a team-killing cancer. That's simply not the case.

ilive4sports
02-27-2012, 02:36 PM
The problem is, most of the reasoning used to prefer Danny are entirely fallacious. I'm just going to take a couple minutes to debunk my personal favorite. I expect more from Anthem, but this is his.

"Heck of a player, but not a winner."

Melo was drafted in 2003, after basically single-handedly carrying his Syracuse team to an NCAA title as a freshman. Until that 2003-2004 season, Denver hadn't made the playoffs since 1994-1995. In those 8 seasons between playoff appearances, the Nuggets won an average of about 21 games per year. His rookie season, they won 43 and finished 6th in the conference. In his 7 full seasons with the Nuggets, they won an average of more than 48 games per season, making the playoffs every single season. He won 42 of the 77 games he played in Denver and New York combined last year. He also made the playoffs last year with New York, and is well on his way to going back again this year.

He's also been one of the best players on an Olympic Gold Medal winner

Granger was drafted in 2005 after a good college career at New Mexico, where he led them to a 1st round tournament appearance. At the time of his drafting, the Pacers hadn't missed the playoffs since 1996-1997, and had made it 15 of the past 16 seasons before his arrival. As a rookie, Granger didn't play a huge role, but they did make the playoffs with a 41-41 record. As a Pacer, he's won an average of 36 games per year and made the playoffs twice.

We all know there were other extenuating circumstances that led to this precipitous fall, but there is no reason to pretend like Granger is the consummate winner, and Melo is a team-killing cancer. That's simply not the case.

Whoa whoa whoa, single-handedly? I think you are forgetting about the best player out of Northeast Pennsylvania since Bob Sura. Of course I'm talking about Gerry McNamara.

But other than that, I have no problems with your post.

Mackey_Rose
02-27-2012, 02:48 PM
Whoa whoa whoa, single-handedly? I think you are forgetting about the best player out of Northeast Pennsylvania since Bob Sura. Of course I'm talking about Gerry McNamara.

But other than that, I have no problems with your post.

McNamara hit some big shots. Warrick had the big block to seal the win.

Melo averaged 22 and 10 for the season, and was dominant in the tournament as he won the MOP after scoring 53 points in the Final Four. He was awesome.

Nuntius
02-27-2012, 02:51 PM
The problem is, most of the reasoning used to prefer Danny are entirely fallacious.


People have used several reasons. Some can be debunked, others cannot. Try to debunk the argument about Melo's bad shot selection.

Look, it's all a matter of preference. I'm ok with Danny. I can see him trying this year. I like what this team is about and Danny is a big part of it. I can root for him.

On the other hand, I never felt the urge to root for Melo. True, he is a superstar. But I never felt the urge to root for a superstar.

There's a reason that I chose to support the Pacers out of all teams. And that's because this team was always great despite never having a superstar in its roster.

A lot of people probably do not relate to my reasoning. It is to be expected. My reasoning is personal. But it's not fallacious.

So, quit getting your gears grinded. Everyone has the right to have personal preferences. Some people don't like mustard. Other people don't like stars.