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vnzla81
02-23-2012, 03:35 PM
http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2012/02/22/another-twist-to-the-rotation/


Another twist to the rotation

11:54 PM, Feb. 22, 2012 | Written by Mike Wells | 3Comments
CHARLOTTE, N.C. – It was just days ago that I wrote in this same space about the George Hill/Darren Collison point guard situation.

Now just days later, another twist has been added to the backcourt situation.

Frank Vogel didn’t rule the possibility of going with A.J. Price as Collison’s backup and Hill backing up Paul George at shooting guard.

“There’s consideration there,” Vogel said. “We have a lot of good options. When guys aren’t playing well or guys are out and you’re struggling to fill holes, we feel good about all our different options. It’s going to be a tough call.”

Vogel can’t continue to give Collison, Price, George, Hill and Lance Stephenson minutes in the second half of the season.

Something will likely have to give.

The Pacers will spend the final 33 games of the season trying to get homecourt in the first round of the playoffs.

Teams usually shorten their rotation later in the season, not expand it.

Price has only helped his cause to stay in the rotation with his play of late. He had a team-high six assists against the Bobcats and he’s scored in double figures in four of the last seven games.

Hill can still play point guard if Price starts to struggle. Hill can also log a lot of minutes at shooting guard if George goes into a funk.

I know it was only the Bobcats, but the second unit sealed the game.

It was Hill, Price, Tyler Hansbrough, Dahntay Jones and Lou Amundson on the court at the start of the fourth quarter when the Pacers turned a 10-point lead into a 21-point cushion halfway through the quarter.

Vogel plans to spend the All-Star break hanging with his family in Indy. He’ll likely also spend some time trying to figure out a backcourt rotation for the second half of the season.

PG: Collison/Price

SG: George/Hill

SF: Granger/Jones

PF: West/Hansbrough

C: Hibbert/Foster

_The_Future_
02-23-2012, 04:05 PM
Its great to be able to have those options. Not a bad "problem" to have if you ask me :cool:

CJ Jones
02-23-2012, 04:16 PM
Still think AJ is the odd man out. A lot of people are going to be disappointed, including Wells it looks like. JMO

Sookie
02-23-2012, 04:22 PM
AJ Price with the second unit makes the team better. That's all that should matter.

I would think (Hope) it would be very hard to sit someone who has been playing like AJ has played.

I also don't really understand people's concerns about Hill playing the 2. He's played the 2 all season (Half his minutes, because he plays with DC in the lineup too.) He also played the 2 in San Antonio. Sure, he's a little short for the position, but a lot of teams have 2's that are a little short, that often times come off the bench. (Shannon Brown, Jason Terry, Ben Gordon, etc..) Hill's also a good defender regardless, he has a long arm span that makes up for his height.

danman
02-23-2012, 04:23 PM
Funny that he talks about rotation realities, then does the quaint starter-backup listing at every slot. Rotations go 8 or 9 deep (not counting the guys who get spare change minutes in single digits).

Not saying Vogel won't swap certain guys on a matchup, but come playoff time, lance won't be alone on the bench. One guy on that list is a lock to be a spare changer, perhaps two.

spazzxb
02-23-2012, 04:23 PM
Obviously Wells asked him the question. vogel wouldn't say no to consideration. Of course he would consider it.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

Hoop
02-23-2012, 07:26 PM
From what I've seen, AJ deserves to play. Lance doesn't, it's that simple.

Of course I don't see practice, I would hope Lance does something in practice to deserve the playing time he has gotten so far this season.

90'sNBARocked
02-23-2012, 07:30 PM
Im not sure who deserves to play, as I only see games not practice

I would still try and find spot minutes for Lance as he has done spectecular things at times and also head scratching moves, but he needs to play some

If I had my way I would start Hill and bring DC off the bench

pacer4ever
02-23-2012, 07:31 PM
We need a pg in the 2nd unit and it is AJ by default(we dont have another pg on the roster besides DC). I would like to upgrade the pg spot in the off season and if Price wants too would be the 3rd string next year. Price is a solid 3 and a solid backup if you have a high caliber starter he is a poor mans Eric Maynor. I hope one of the pgs drop in the draft but that is very doubtful we may have to bring in a upgrade via free agency.

spazzxb
02-23-2012, 07:41 PM
From what I've seen, AJ deserves to play. Lance doesn't, it's that simple.

Of course I don't see practice, I would hope Lance does something in practice to deserve the playing time he has gotten so far this season.

I think your van is leaking fumes. You know you can promote AJ without picking on the youngest player on the team right? How is trying to give AJ 5 minutes from a player who is not even playing his position simple?

90'sNBARocked
02-23-2012, 08:20 PM
Nothing about the Pacers is simple

nothing

:)

Sookie
02-23-2012, 08:29 PM
I think your van is leaking fumes. You know you can promote AJ without picking on the youngest player on the team right? How is trying to give AJ 5 minutes from a player who is not even playing his position simple?

It's not picking on Lance.

If AJ gets minutes, he is going to take Lance's five minutes..plus probably 5 from the wings and 5 from DC. (just the way it'll split up because Hill used to play both positions.)

Also, the way Wells writes his column is "will it be AJ or Lance getting minutes?" And it's not an attack on Lance to suggest he doesn't deserve the minutes over AJ. He hasn't played as well as AJ and doesn't help the team as much as AJ. That's plenty reason to have an opinion that AJ deserves the spot over him.

dal9
02-23-2012, 08:45 PM
Can't shorten the rotation too much...schedule is too compressed...players (on other teams) dropping like flies...getting into the playoffs healthy is more than half the battle...

McKeyFan
02-23-2012, 08:53 PM
We need a pg in the 2nd unit and it is AJ by default(we dont have another pg on the roster besides AJ).
fixed

Justin Tyme
02-23-2012, 08:53 PM
Wells, might want to re-think the part about Foster being the b/u to Hibbert unless he was considering Foster as the b/u every 3rd to 5th game.

spazzxb
02-23-2012, 08:54 PM
It's not picking on Lance.

If AJ gets minutes, he is going to take Lance's five minutes..plus probably 5 from the wings and 5 from DC. (just the way it'll split up because Hill used to play both positions.)

Also, the way Wells writes his column is "will it be AJ or Lance getting minutes?" And it's not an attack on Lance to suggest he doesn't deserve the minutes over AJ. He hasn't played as well as AJ and doesn't help the team as much as AJ. That's plenty reason to have an opinion that AJ deserves the spot over him.

Do you not think match-ups should be involved in the discussion? Is it not a huge assumption, to say that George Hill isn't playing PG any more. This assumption is needed for the argument your making. That dude tried to say it was simple. He also claims to live in a van down by the river(fumes were just a joke)

spazzxb
02-23-2012, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by pacer4ever
We need a pg in the 2nd unit and it is AJ by default(we dont have another pg on the roster besides AJ).


fixed

Thats the thread I wish you guys would start, just leave the kid out of it. No ones having that discussion. Make the debate GH vs AJ vs DC, the coach isn't playing Lance at PG anyway. I would just be interested in reading it.

CJ Jones
02-23-2012, 09:16 PM
It's not picking on Lance.



The way he says it... it kinda is.

Lance deserves to play. Whether he will or not I don't know, but if he's benched it won't be because he's played bad and doesn't deserve playing time, it'll be because AJ beat him out.

Sookie
02-23-2012, 09:20 PM
The way he says it... it kinda is.

Lance deserves to play. Whether he will or not I don't know, but if he's benched it won't be because he's played bad and doesn't deserve playing time, it'll be because AJ beat him out.

I think that's what the person meant. Lance doesn't deserve time over AJ. AKA AJ beat him out. (And based on play, it would be hard to argue the other way around.)

I think you can still find development minutes for Lance, but at some point you have to question if playing 11 players and Lance's play in general, is worth it. He's young and a developing player, there's no rush for his development.

Pacer Fan
02-23-2012, 09:37 PM
Gonna be a really good twist when Larry brings in a couple new faces soon. Possibly even do some shuffling in trades.

CJ Jones
02-23-2012, 09:54 PM
I think that's what the person meant. Lance doesn't deserve time over AJ. AKA AJ beat him out. (And based on play, it would be hard to argue the other way around.)

I think you can still find development minutes for Lance, but at some point you have to question if playing 11 players and Lance's play in general, is worth it. He's young and a developing player, there's no rush for his development.

It hard to compare their play since they're playing different positions... but I agree AJ's looked really good lately. Lance has played well consistently on both ends too though.

spazzxb
02-23-2012, 09:58 PM
Gonna be a really good twist when Larry brings in a couple new faces soon. Possibly even do some shuffling in trades.

It will definitely be interesting to see what happens. I have faith in Bird that any adjustments will be positive.

rock747
02-23-2012, 09:59 PM
I think its blatantly obvious that AJ should and should have been the backup PG.

90'sNBARocked
02-23-2012, 10:09 PM
My 2 cents,

I wouldnt go so far as to say AJ has outplayed Lance recently. In fact I think Lance has done better than I thought considering his limited minutes. He has clearly shown the ability to pass the rock. I have seen him make passes this season, I dont think any other current Pacer could do. He also has one thing over every guard on our squad...strength. Lance can beat his man off the dribble, but also back him down in the post, snatch a rebound and lead the break. I hope he continues to get at least some playing time each game. I think its important to his development and psyche.

But,

At this time I trust AJ more to play within the system and make the right decesion. I also trust his ability to run the team and half the time, was actually looking forward to Aj being subed in for DC, because I knnew the offensive flow would be better. AJ is by far more consistent with his deep jumpshot, than Lance at this point. I think Vogel feels that the second unit needs a scoring punch and by bringing in AJ to back up the point , it switches Hill ove to the back up SG where he can be more aggressive and look to score. This helps the production on the second unit.

I think Lance has the ability to be one of the better players in the league, and who is to say that he cant end up being better than Paul George one day. Right now though, I cant see Lance in a pressure situation . AJ though, I trust him in a tight game. If he works on cutting down his turnovers, I would rather sign him next year and not DC, but upgrade at the starting point guard position

CJ Jones
02-23-2012, 10:10 PM
I think its blatantly obvious that AJ should and should have been the backup PG.

Why... because he's played well for the last couple weeks? What about practice? What about all last year when he shot worse than any other player in the league?

Apparently it's wasn't blatantly obvious or he'd have played from the get go. Vogel's said several times that Lance is earning his minutes.

HC
02-23-2012, 10:13 PM
Why... because he's played well for the last couple weeks? What about practice? What about all last year when he shot worse than any other player in the league?

Apparently it's wasn't blatantly obvious or he'd have played from the get go. Vogel's said several times that Lance is earning his minutes.

AJ has only been getting regular rotation time for a couple of weeks.

CJ Jones
02-23-2012, 10:18 PM
He's played since the beginning of January. His fg% this season even after his last couple good weeks... 37%.

edit: AJ's also taken more shots than Lance in 60 less minutes and 9 less games.

xBulletproof
02-23-2012, 10:32 PM
He's played since the beginning of January. His fg% this season even after his last couple good weeks... 37%.

edit: AJ's also taken more shots than Lance in 60 less minutes and 9 less games.

I'm avoiding opinion issues with Lance for obvious reasons, but if you're going to quote statistics to bash AJ Price ....

Lance has made 34 out of 88 shots for 78 points.
AJ has made 33 out of 89 shots for 99 points.

AJ also has more assists in those fewer minutes. He also averages less turnovers per minute.

I seriously have no idea what anyone has seen in a game to make them believe Lance has 'earned' his time. I really could care less about practice, if you don't perform in games.

rock747
02-23-2012, 10:38 PM
Why... because he's played well for the last couple weeks? What about practice? What about all last year when he shot worse than any other player in the league?

Apparently it's wasn't blatantly obvious or he'd have played from the get go. Vogel's said several times that Lance is earning his minutes.

Lance is obviously the better talent, but AJ is a better NBA player right now. AJ wasn't given opportunities to play at the start of the season, so you can't use the excuse that he just started playing well the last few weeks. He hadn't really gotten any valuable playing time until George Hill went down with the injury. He was solid for the Pacers last year and this year he was replaced as the backup. So far, it seems obvious that the offense runs smoother with him playing point than it does lance.

CJ Jones
02-23-2012, 10:41 PM
I'm avoiding opinion issues with Lance for obvious reasons, but if you're going to quote statistics to bash AJ Price ....

Lance has made 34 out of 88 shots for 78 points.
AJ has made 33 out of 89 shots for 99 points.

AJ also has more assists in those fewer minutes. He also averages less turnovers per minute.

I seriously have no idea what anyone has seen in a game to make them believe Lance has 'earned' his time. I really could care less about practice, if you don't perform in games.

I am just pointing out that AJ hasn't been playing great all year and he was terrible last year, so there's nothing obvious when it comes to Lance and AJ.

If you haven't seen anything he's done to earn playing time there's no reason debating with you. Your're probably one of those people that can't see any talent in him too right?

CJ Jones
02-23-2012, 10:47 PM
Lance is obviously the better talent, but AJ is a better NBA player right now. AJ wasn't given opportunities to play at the start of the season, so you can't use the excuse that he just started playing well the last few weeks. He hadn't really gotten any valuable playing time until George Hill went down with the injury. He was solid for the Pacers last year and this year he was replaced as the backup. So far, it seems obvious that the offense runs smoother with him playing point than it does lance.

If he was solid last year he wouldn't have been replaced in the rotation.

I will agree the offense does run smoother with AJ at point. Probably better than anyone on the team.

sportfireman
02-23-2012, 10:51 PM
I honestly think AJ is being showcased to be included in a trade. I just don't see AJ getting more time than Lance, Bird has a serious man crush on Lance..... Just my 2 cent.

HC
02-23-2012, 11:12 PM
He's played since the beginning of January. His fg% this season even after his last couple good weeks... 37%.

edit: AJ's also taken more shots than Lance in 60 less minutes and 9 less games.

Yeah, and he struggled for a bit shaking some of the rust off. Now he is playing fairly well.

15th parallel
02-23-2012, 11:26 PM
AJ is playing well of late, so he deserve to get some of he backup minutes, especially when he's playing well.

Minutes of the bench players are situational or based from their actual performance during the game. And I think that should be the way to do it. Lance had his too when he played well on some games during George's injury, so AJ should get what he's earned.

On Lance, I think he's really a good PG (best passer and court vision on this team IMO). He's just not yet adjusted to NBA speed and style and that's what's hurting him. If he can use his ankle-breakers and size to get his own offense then I think his PG play will improve as he'll draw more defense and his moves become unpredictable (I believe his man always thinks he'll pass the ball).

Anthem
02-23-2012, 11:48 PM
AJ also has more assists in those fewer minutes.
Well, he is playing point guard.

When Lance is on the floor with AJ, Collison, or Hill, Lance is the shooting guard. So it's not apples to apples.

That being said, the rest of your post is solid.

Graham Mernatsi
02-23-2012, 11:50 PM
edit: AJ's also taken more shots than Lance in 60 less minutes and 9 less games.
FEWER.

You people are going to be the death of me.

:arrgh:

RLeWorm
02-23-2012, 11:57 PM
as big of a lance fan i am, AJ deserves the backup spot at pg. Lance literally is non existent on the court. He stands in the corner and does nothing. he doesn't cut or nothing. Makes me kind of mad actually.

PR07
02-24-2012, 12:12 AM
Until Lance can show that he can hit a jumper, I think he's the odd man out. In the playoffs, teams would probably exploit that. That being said, he's a nice gamechanger to throw in when things may not be going our way, but if Price can consistently bring it, I think he gobbles up those minutes.

jeffg-body
02-24-2012, 12:24 AM
I agree that AJ should get the bulk of back-up minutes because he is playing very well at this time. With GH having returned I see AJ getting less minutes at the 1 and Lance continuing to get his minutes, although very limited right now at the 2 spot. With PG and GH eating up a lot of the minutes at the 2 I still hope to see Lance for 5-10 minutes a game getting increased experience. He has that strength that we don't have in our other wings right now.

Hoop
02-24-2012, 01:24 AM
Do you not think match-ups should be involved in the discussion? Is it not a huge assumption, to say that George Hill isn't playing PG any more. This assumption is needed for the argument your making. That dude tried to say it was simple. He also claims to live in a van down by the river(fumes were just a joke)
The van down by the river thing is a reference to a skit on Saturday Night Live with Chris Farley. I guess no one has ever noticed. I do enjoy some good fumes though.

Before Hill got hurt Lance was playing more PG than SG, after the Hill injury Lance played almost exclusively at SG. PG is were the minutes are at and IMO AJ deserves them.

Sookie
02-24-2012, 03:44 AM
My 2 cents,

I wouldnt go so far as to say AJ has outplayed Lance recently. In fact I think Lance has done better than I thought considering his limited minutes. He has clearly shown the ability to pass the rock. I have seen him make passes this season, I dont think any other current Pacer could do. He also has one thing over every guard on our squad...strength. Lance can beat his man off the dribble, but also back him down in the post, snatch a rebound and lead the break. I hope he continues to get at least some playing time each game. I think its important to his development and psyche.

But,

At this time I trust AJ more to play within the system and make the right decesion. I also trust his ability to run the team and half the time, was actually looking forward to Aj being subed in for DC, because I knnew the offensive flow would be better. AJ is by far more consistent with his deep jumpshot, than Lance at this point. I think Vogel feels that the second unit needs a scoring punch and by bringing in AJ to back up the point , it switches Hill ove to the back up SG where he can be more aggressive and look to score. This helps the production on the second unit.

I think Lance has the ability to be one of the better players in the league, and who is to say that he cant end up being better than Paul George one day. Right now though, I cant see Lance in a pressure situation . AJ though, I trust him in a tight game. If he works on cutting down his turnovers, I would rather sign him next year and not DC, but upgrade at the starting point guard position

I don't know how you can debate it.

That's not to say Lance has been bad. I've said a few times his effort has surprised me (in a good way.) Yes, a lot of times he'll make one really good play. (Or one flashy play that people go wild over). But he makes a lot of mistakes in there as well. As I've repeated, because of the energy and effort that Lance brings to the game is important, and if we didn't have an option that was playing better, I'd say doesn't hurt the team.

AJ on the other hand, has been playing really well as of late. He's pushed DC's minutes in a few games. I actually think you'd have a hard time finding a backup point guard who has been better the past 7 games.


It sucks for Lance, because he hasn't done anything wrong. He's put in the effort, he's trying to fit within the system, he's just not NBA ready, and someone clearly beat him in the rotation. (Doesn't mean AJ will actually get the minutes, but he should. It would honestly be best for the team.)

xBulletproof
02-24-2012, 04:30 AM
Your're probably one of those people that can't see any talent in him too right?

You mean like the rest of the NBA? Sure, I'll hang my hat in with that group. In the NBA 2nd round picks that work out are exceedingly rare. The very fact that he slid that far tells me everything I need to know about the NBA's opinion of him.

Just for reference here are what guys drafted 40th overall (like Lance) averaged from 1989 to 2008. This is no small sample. The average career is as follows ...

134 games, 11.5 minutes per, 4.3 points per, 1.7 rebounds per, and 1.0 assists per. 25% of those picked never even played in the NBA.

When you realize how top heavy the NBA draft is, and how pathetically bad 2nd round picks fare in the NBA, you get a pretty good gauge on what NBA GM's think of guys when they fall that far. Sure there are exceptions, but most of them garner playing time immediately and contribute. Van Exel, 13 points and 6 assists his rookie year, Arenas 10 points, 3 rebounds and 4 assists his rookie year. Manu had 8 points, 2 rebounds and 2 assists. Boozer had 10 points and 7 rebounds.

So yes, I think the same of him as the rest of the NBA GM's and I'll take my chances with that side more often than not.

ilive4sports
02-24-2012, 04:37 AM
You mean like the rest of the NBA? Sure, I'll hang my hat in with that group. In the NBA 2nd round picks that work out are exceedingly rare. The very fact that he slid that far tells me everything I need to know about the NBA's opinion of him.

Just for reference here are what guys drafted 40th overall (like Lance) averaged from 1989 to 2008. This is no small sample. The average career is as follows ...

134 games, 11.5 minutes per, 4.3 points per, 1.7 rebounds per, and 1.0 assists per. 25% of those picked never even played in the NBA.

When you realize how top heavy the NBA draft is, and how pathetically bad 2nd round picks fare in the NBA, you get a pretty good gauge on what NBA GM's think of guys when they fall that far. Sure there are exceptions, but most of them garner playing time immediately and contribute. Van Exel, 13 points and 6 assists his rookie year, Arenas 10 points, 3 rebounds and 4 assists his rookie year. Manu had 8 points, 2 rebounds and 2 assists. Boozer had 10 points and 7 rebounds.

So yes, I think the same of him as the rest of the NBA GM's and I'll take my chances with that side more often than not.

Lance didn't fall to the second round because of lack of talent.

spazzxb
02-24-2012, 04:38 AM
The van down by the river thing is a reference to a skit on Saturday Night Live with Chris Farley. I guess no one has ever noticed. I do enjoy some good fumes though.


I believe he was a motivational speaker.


Before Hill got hurt Lance was playing more PG than SG, after the Hill injury Lance played almost exclusively at SG. PG is were the minutes are at and IMO AJ deserves them.

I highly doubt GH is done playing point guard. Furthermore, if they wanted to phase Lance out they could just give his minutes to Hill or DJ. It is literally 5 minutes in competitive games that we are talking about here. That is why I think the AJ vs. Lance debate is kinda silly, unless we are talking specifically about the PG position.

xBulletproof
02-24-2012, 04:41 AM
Lance didn't fall to the second round because of lack of talent.

Never bought that. Not for one minute. Didn't stop Demarcus Cousins. Rasheed Wallace, Ron Artest or any other crazy that's made his way to the NBA from being drafted high.

Bad eggs are drafted in the 1st round whenever their talent calls for it. Talent beats out crazy almost every time in the GM's mind. So why would Lance be the exception? Heck, even Marcus Williams from UConn was drafted #22 after missing games with grades and being kicked off the team for stealing.

.

Eleazar
02-24-2012, 05:14 AM
Lance didn't fall to the second round because of lack of talent.

To a certain extent yes, but at the same time people are usually willing to take risks on head cases if they truly are superior talents. Stephenson really isn't. He may have been a late 1st round talent, but he wasn't going to go in the top 20 even if he wasn't considered a head case. He excelled in high school, but he really didn't do anything to stand out in college.

It wasn't like the year when Price was drafted where there were tons of talented players at his position entering the NBA, and he was coming off of an injury. We are talking about a draft class where Cousins went in the top 5.

Sherlock
02-24-2012, 05:26 AM
When you realize how top heavy the NBA draft is, and how pathetically bad 2nd round picks fare in the NBA, you get a pretty good gauge on what NBA GM's think of guys when they fall that far. Sure there are exceptions, but most of them garner playing time immediately and contribute. Van Exel, 13 points and 6 assists his rookie year, Arenas 10 points, 3 rebounds and 4 assists his rookie year. Manu had 8 points, 2 rebounds and 2 assists. Boozer had 10 points and 7 rebounds.


I just happened to know that there is a player playing PG, who was undrafted even at 2nd round and waived by two teams.
Recently, in the last 8 games stretch, this particular player is playing at all-star level, racking 20+ PPG, 7+APG like number.

And that sound like a player people said we need before Pacers can be a title contender.

OK, I am just nitpicking. ;)

ilive4sports
02-24-2012, 05:29 AM
Lance fell for a few reasons, being a headcase is only one of them. Quite frankly he came out too early. Cousins was ready to go to the NBA. Lance wasn't. Lance didnt have an amazing season at Cincy either. His transition from high school ball to college was tough, he never fully made it. another season or two at cincy would have done wonders for him.

Lance is rather talented. There is a reason Bird said he is the most talented guy on the team. Do i believe that? No, Paul George is. But Lance could be a very, very good player for us. He has the best vision of anyone on the team. Its incredibly good. He forces things right now. Why? Because thats what he has done his whole life. He is learning the game still.

spazzxb
02-24-2012, 05:46 AM
You mean like the rest of the NBA? Sure, I'll hang my hat in with that group. In the NBA 2nd round picks that work out are exceedingly rare. The very fact that he slid that far tells me everything I need to know about the NBA's opinion of him.

Just for reference here are what guys drafted 40th overall (like Lance) averaged from 1989 to 2008. This is no small sample. The average career is as follows ...

134 games, 11.5 minutes per, 4.3 points per, 1.7 rebounds per, and 1.0 assists per. 25% of those picked never even played in the NBA.

When you realize how top heavy the NBA draft is, and how pathetically bad 2nd round picks fare in the NBA, you get a pretty good gauge on what NBA GM's think of guys when they fall that far. Sure there are exceptions, but most of them garner playing time immediately and contribute. Van Exel, 13 points and 6 assists his rookie year, Arenas 10 points, 3 rebounds and 4 assists his rookie year. Manu had 8 points, 2 rebounds and 2 assists. Boozer had 10 points and 7 rebounds.

So yes, I think the same of him as the rest of the NBA GM's and I'll take my chances with that side more often than not.

5 minutes a night with 2 different lineups aren't really giving him the chance to impress, especially when the point-guards don't want to let him touch the ball. In garbage time, He's feeding Pendergraph and Amundson for missed shots, not padding his stats.

Lance could still be a junior in College and gets himself a highlight reel play almost every game, even with his limited minutes. The kid is just fun to watch and even on the bench, you can tell how much he loves the game. The scouts said his issue was that he couldn't play defense, now he can. Why you gotta hate?

If they condense the rotations and he looses his minutes later in the season its won't come as a shock, however you would have to be blind to not be able to see the passing and ball skills he posses's. I could care less where he was drafted. My theory is that if Lance were to be given more minutes, he would find his rythym, loose the nerves, and his shot would come around. This has not been proven or dis-proven. The coach can sort the minutes out, but you seriously underrate Lance's potential.

McKeyFan
02-24-2012, 08:03 AM
FEWER.

You people are going to be the death of me.

:arrgh:

The avatar calling the kettle black?

HickeyS2000
02-24-2012, 10:22 AM
I don't care who is playing better right now, I am looking towards next year, when we might actually have a real possibility of making noise in the playoffs. In order for us to do that, we need Lance to get where a lot of us think he has the possibility of getting, and that's borderline all-star. AJ is what AJ is. A good, serviceable backup PG that won't hurt the team. I like AJ. But as a fan of the Pacers, I need Lance to keep developing, and let's be honest, his ceiling is WAAAY higher than AJ's. The only way for that to happen is to keep playing him. Price helps us short-term, Lance long-term. Short-term we have no chance at going deep in the playoffs, long-term we do. Play Lance.

Since86
02-24-2012, 10:30 AM
If some of you guys don't see the talent in Lance, then you're freaking blind. When he creates 6-8 ft of space for a 15ft jumpshot, you should instantly put that opinion to bed. It's just ridiculous.

Eleazar
02-24-2012, 11:01 AM
I don't care who is playing better right now, I am looking towards next year, when we might actually have a real possibility of making noise in the playoffs. In order for us to do that, we need Lance to get where a lot of us think he has the possibility of getting, and that's borderline all-star. AJ is what AJ is. A good, serviceable backup PG that won't hurt the team. I like AJ. But as a fan of the Pacers, I need Lance to keep developing, and let's be honest, his ceiling is WAAAY higher than AJ's. The only way for that to happen is to keep playing him. Price helps us short-term, Lance long-term. Short-term we have no chance at going deep in the playoffs, long-term we do. Play Lance.


How poorly does Lance have to play for people to start realizing Lance is not a special talent?

How well does Price have to play for you people to realize how good of a player he is?



If some of you guys don't see the talent in Lance, then you're freaking blind. When he creates 6-8 ft of space for a 15ft jumpshot, you should instantly put that opinion to bed. It's just ridiculous.

Creating space is useless if you can't make the jumper.

billbradley
02-24-2012, 11:07 AM
If some of you guys don't see the talent in Lance, then you're freaking blind. When he creates 6-8 ft of space for a 15ft jumpshot, you should instantly put that opinion to bed. It's just ridiculous.

Has anyone noticed how many times Lance has hit Amundson who is all of sudden wide open, right under the basket, but Lou can't handle it? This isn't all Lou's fault as he isn't ready for that type of play from Lance, but you can see how Lance finds spaces in the game most players don't see.

Since86
02-24-2012, 11:20 AM
Creating space is useless if you can't make the jumper.

In the last 10 games he's shooting 43%.

EDIT: And BTW, Lance's career shooting % is 37%. AJ's? 38%

HickeyS2000
02-24-2012, 11:27 AM
How poorly does Lance have to play for people to start realizing Lance is not a special talent?

How well does Price have to play for you people to realize how good of a player he is?

Did you read my post? AJ has already reached his potential as a player. The only way for him to get better is to improve consistency. Lance has reached about 35% of his potential. And they aren't that far apart right now! If you can't see that, then you have an obvious bias against Lance and possibly for AJ.

IndyJones
02-24-2012, 11:31 AM
I'm avoiding opinion issues with Lance for obvious reasons, but if you're going to quote statistics to bash AJ Price ....

Lance has made 34 out of 88 shots for 78 points.
AJ has made 33 out of 89 shots for 99 points.

AJ also has more assists in those fewer minutes. He also averages less turnovers per minute.

I seriously have no idea what anyone has seen in a game to make them believe Lance has 'earned' his time. I really could care less about practice, if you don't perform in games.

Lance has not been playing PG, Hill was the back up PG and then Price was when Hill went down. Price has been dominating the ball when he is in there.

You wouldn't compare PG's assist numbers to DC's

pacergod2
02-24-2012, 11:34 AM
I would love to see AJ start at PG. Bring Collison off the bench. Even if you play Collison more minutes. I think AJ does way more for our half court game which is the bread and butter of our starting unit. I really wish we could see what AJ does with that first unit. He can hit the outside shot and would probably look to score a little less in the first unit. In the second unit, I hope Collison gets as many shots as possible. AJ is a much better defender as well, even if that isn't saying much.

I think we should utilize Price as a little bit bigger minute player. If that gives us the extra flexibility to make a trade to improve our back court we should. I really like Collison, but IMO we have like four backup PGs. AJ is probably not good enough to garner starter minutes. Collison's defense is consistently bad, so when he doesn't score 15+ points, it hurts us. But on the second unit, he is a perfect player to push the tempo and score against other second units. He is a perfect backup PG and would be the best backup in the league. Hill I would start if we didn't need him to play SG so bad. Hill I would start because he sets up the offense well and plays fantastic defense. But is his best fit being a starting PG, probably not. Stephenson has the handles and is big and strong and passes well, but he makes so many dumb mistakes, as a kid his age does normally. I also don't know that he would convert to PG defensively, even with his size.

I would trade any two of those guys for one guy who you know how to use with our rotation. I really love Hill's versatility, defense, and maturity, so he would be the one I would like to keep, but not at $7M per year. Price would be a good, cheap long term backup. What can we get for Collison and Stephenson, and maybe DJones, Hansborough, and/or a pick?

HickeyS2000
02-24-2012, 11:34 AM
Never bought that. Not for one minute. Didn't stop Demarcus Cousins. Rasheed Wallace, Ron Artest or any other crazy that's made his way to the NBA from being drafted high.

Cousins is a center that has HOF potential. Wallace and Artest are both DPOY players. We all know Lance is not that kind of player. A crazy SG is always going to fall lower than a crazy C. And Cousins was on one of the best teams in the country, while Lance was at Cinci. Bad comparison.

xBulletproof
02-24-2012, 12:05 PM
5 minutes a night with 2 different lineups aren't really giving him the chance to impress

Stopped reading right there.

It's like he's a victim or something to you. You make it sound like it's so tragic that he isn't getting more of a chance. You sound like Asher99 for Tyler. There's a reason he's only playing as much as he is. There's a reason he's only getting the ball as much as he does. And it's not because Vogel is a hater, or the players are freezing him out.

It's because he can't handle more than he's being given. Honestly, I would say he isn't even handling what he's getting very well.

Eleazar
02-24-2012, 12:10 PM
In the last 10 games he's shooting 43%.

EDIT: And BTW, Lance's career shooting % is 37%. AJ's? 38%

Did you know there is more to basketball than shooting, but hey if you want to bring up shooting stats.

3pt% This Season Career
Price .333 .315
Lance .105 .083

AFG%
Price .46 .459
Lance .4 .378

TS%
Price .511 .495
Lance .412 .411

PPS
Price 1.112 1.009 & 1.158 (previous seasons)
Lance .886 .949(previous seasons)

FT%
Price 1.000 .759
Lance .533 .655



Did you read my post? AJ has already reached his potential as a player. The only way for him to get better is to improve consistency. Lance has reached about 35% of his potential. And they aren't that far apart right now! If you can't see that, then you have an obvious bias against Lance and possibly for AJ.

I read your post, and I disagreed. You think AJ has reached his ceiling, yet he continues to improve. You say Lance has borderline all-star potential, yet he doesn't know how to play fundamentally sound basketball.

Since86
02-24-2012, 12:13 PM
Of course I know there's more to basketball than shooting. Your comeback to my point was about shooting, so I referenced shooting numbers.

Pretty easy to understand.

Since86
02-24-2012, 12:16 PM
And of course AJ is better RIGHT NOW. AJ has 1,932 minutes in his career. Lance has 447.

The topic of conversation was whether or not people had their eyes open to see Lance's skillset, rather than keeping your heads in the sand and pretending like he's not miles ahead of where he was just about a month ago.

vnzla81
02-24-2012, 12:23 PM
I have a feeling that the people that love to judge Lance are doing it for non basketball reasons, they just don't like the guy are never will.

xBulletproof
02-24-2012, 12:29 PM
Cousins is a center that has HOF potential. Wallace and Artest are both DPOY players. We all know Lance is not that kind of player. A crazy SG is always going to fall lower than a crazy C. And Cousins was on one of the best teams in the country, while Lance was at Cinci. Bad comparison.

OK, JR Smith was drafted in the 1st at 18. Delonte West was drafted in the first round as well, #24. Bonzi Wells was taken at #11. Jason Williams (white PG guy) was nuttier than squirrel turds and he was taken #7. Ricky Davis was drafted at #21. Latrell Sprewell was drafted #24.

Are those better? They were all guards, and all were crazy. Yet it didn't doom any of them to drop to the 2nd round.

For goodness sakes Jason Williams was suspended 4 times for drugs in college, the last time permanently. When asked what he enjoyed about college he answered "I enjoyed getting kicked out". Then was drafted #7. He wasn't a center, he wasn't HOF material.

xBulletproof
02-24-2012, 12:31 PM
I have a feeling that the people that love to judge Lance are doing it for non basketball reasons, they just don't like the guy are never will.

Actually I was with 90's in defending him when it all came out. I've just never thought he was that good.

EDIT - for link
http://www.pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=1052083&postcount=621

.

Eleazar
02-24-2012, 12:37 PM
And of course AJ is better RIGHT NOW. AJ has 1,932 minutes in his career. Lance has 447.

The topic of conversation was whether or not people had their eyes open to see Lance's skillset, rather than keeping your heads in the sand and pretending like he's not miles ahead of where he was just about a month ago.

Well if your point is that he is miles ahead of where he was a month ago you should have said that instead of trying to use one of the worsts parts of his game as an example of how he is miles ahead. To be honest I don't see that much improvement.

What I am trying to say is fancy passes don't mean much if you don't know when to pass. Nice dribbling skills don't mean much if you can't make the shot afterwards. So far he has shown little to suggest that will change any time soon.

Eleazar
02-24-2012, 12:43 PM
Actually I was with 90's in defending him when it all came out. I've just never thought he was that good.

Yeah, and if you go back you will see that most of us who don't like Lance were also the ones say, "Hold on lets see how this all plays out, for all we know the girlfriend is making it up."

Since86
02-24-2012, 12:44 PM
Well if your point is that he is miles ahead of where he was a month ago you should have said that instead of trying to use one of the worsts parts of his game as an example of how he is miles ahead. To be honest I don't see that much improvement.

What I am trying to say is fancy passes don't mean much if you don't know when to pass. Nice dribbling skills don't mean much if you can't make the shot afterwards. So far he has shown little to suggest that will change any time soon.

Did you actually read what I wrote, or are you just going to use your intrepretation?

I said he can create 6-8ft for a 15ft jumpshot. That's it.

You then came back with that it's worthless, if he can't hit the shot. Show I showed you shooting percentages that indicates that he actually can hit the shot.

If you don't see the ability to create the shot, and then his growth in actually knocking down the shot, then I've got to question whether or not you actually watch the games.

Lance creates his own shot, he's starting to shoot the ball a lot better, and he has the ability to get other players open looks, as Bill pointed out.

That's talent. If you want to argue personal biasness, then there's no point. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Pretty applicable saying for this conversation.

HickeyS2000
02-24-2012, 12:45 PM
Well if your point is that he is miles ahead of where he was a month ago you should have said that instead of trying to use one of the worsts parts of his game as an example of how he is miles ahead. To be honest I don't see that much improvement.

What I am trying to say is fancy passes don't mean much if you don't know when to pass. Nice dribbling skills don't mean much if you can't make the shot afterwards. So far he has shown little to suggest that will change any time soon.

That sounds like something playing time would help. Just sayin. People can practice all they want, but the skills hardly ever translate to a game until they get playing time.

I think Lance could be really similar to Tyreke Evans. Tyreke was given the green light from day 1, Lance has never seen the green light. AJ Price has played 3 times more than Lance, and he is still what he was his rookie year. Lance has improved more in 3 months than AJ has in 3 years. AJ is solid, but he is a solid bench player. That's it. When I look at Lance, I see starter material. Maybe it's just his size that gets me. I don't know.

Eleazar
02-24-2012, 01:21 PM
Did you actually read what I wrote, or are you just going to use your intrepretation?

I said he can create 6-8ft for a 15ft jumpshot. That's it.

You then came back with that it's worthless, if he can't hit the shot. Show I showed you shooting percentages that indicates that he actually can hit the shot.

If you don't see the ability to create the shot, and then his growth in actually knocking down the shot, then I've got to question whether or not you actually watch the games.

Lance creates his own shot, he's starting to shoot the ball a lot better, and he has the ability to get other players open looks, as Bill pointed out.

That's talent. If you want to argue personal biasness, then there's no point. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Pretty applicable saying for this conversation.


I took the time to go back and make sure I remember correctly, while his shooting percentage might have overall been higher than in the past, but it wasn't because he was making more 15fters than usual.



That sounds like something playing time would help. Just sayin. People can practice all they want, but the skills hardly ever translate to a game until they get playing time.

I think Lance could be really similar to Tyreke Evans. Tyreke was given the green light from day 1, Lance has never seen the green light. AJ Price has played 3 times more than Lance, and he is still what he was his rookie year. Lance has improved more in 3 months than AJ has in 3 years. AJ is solid, but he is a solid bench player. That's it. When I look at Lance, I see starter material. Maybe it's just his size that gets me. I don't know.

No Price is not the same player he was his rookie season. He was good his rookie season, but he was no where near as good as he has been recently, remember he was being compared to Ford and Watson his rookie season. Could Lance potentially be a starter sure, but so could Price at this point in his career. If anything Price is much more likely because he was a much better player from the very beginning and a smarter player.

The kind of stuff Lance struggles with is not stuff that playing time fixes. If playing time fixed that kind of stuff Rush would have ended up being the player we all wanted him to be.

HickeyS2000
02-24-2012, 01:34 PM
No Price is not the same player he was his rookie season. He was good his rookie season, but he was no where near as good as he has been recently, remember he was being compared to Ford and Watson his rookie season.


I agree Price has been playing very well, but I need to see if this continues. I believe he is going to regress back to his norm.



Could Lance potentially be a starter sure, but so could Price at this point in his career. If anything Price is much more likely because he was a much better player from the very beginning and a smarter player.

The kind of stuff Lance struggles with is not stuff that playing time fixes. If playing time fixed that kind of stuff Rush would have ended up being the player we all wanted him to be.

I don't think you can compare Rush and what Lance. Rush had the skill, he was too timid and had confidence issues. Lance has the confidence, he just needs to learn who he should and should not be making the difficult passes to (please no more to Amundson) and become more consistent with the mid-range. He needs to learn his teammates better. AJ seems to gel better at this point.

I think Lance has a chance at becoming a really good defender. He has surprised me this year with his defense. AJ is just so-so. Not bad on ball, not great helping, and terrible at helping the helper (Lance too).

I just think Lance oozes potential and AJ already has the bball IQ, so I don't think he has much potential left. It's all about if his shot is falling. Lance is a better athlete, and has a better chance at giving opponents a more difficult time.

Justin Tyme
02-24-2012, 01:46 PM
Lance didn't fall to the second round because of lack of talent.


Born Ready doesn't seem to be NBA ready either with all that touted talent. What he's got is Bird mesmerized.

Gerald Green is one of many who comes to mind with talent who didn't make it or did very little with that touted talent they were to have had. Many on here on PD wanted GG over Granger. How did that work out? Having talent and being able to apply that talent is 2 totally different things.

Hicks
02-24-2012, 01:48 PM
If some of you guys don't see the talent in Lance, then you're freaking blind. When he creates 6-8 ft of space for a 15ft jumpshot, you should instantly put that opinion to bed. It's just ridiculous.

That, and while it's really raw right now, I think eventually he could end up being a good driver/finisher (because he's just too big for a guard to slow down/stop) as he bulls his way in. Maybe he'll never learn to finish once he gets to the rim, but I think going off of his game at lower levels that will come. The hard part in the NBA is getting to the rim, and he's shown me he can probably learn to do that on a regular basis. But we'll see.

It could still be a very unspectacular career for this kid, but it's not hard to see how it could go much, much better than that, too. Start knocking those 15-footers down more often off of created space, the layups start to drop when he bulls in on his smaller defender, keep working on catch-and-shoot 3's... and those things suddenly will open up the passing lanes, where anyone with one eye can see he has serious talent for dropping dimes.

His future is still VERY much up in the air, but the best realistic case is still a pretty interesting cat to have on your team.

Justin Tyme
02-24-2012, 01:54 PM
5 minutes a night with 2 different lineups aren't really giving him the chance to impress, especially when the point-guards don't want to let him touch the ball. In garbage time, He's feeding Pendergraph and Amundson for missed shots, not padding his stats.

Lance could still be a junior in College and gets himself a highlight reel play almost every game, even with his limited minutes. The kid is just fun to watch and even on the bench, you can tell how much he loves the game. The scouts said his issue was that he couldn't play defense, now he can. Why you gotta hate?

If they condense the rotations and he looses his minutes later in the season its won't come as a shock, however you would have to be blind to not be able to see the passing and ball skills he posses's. I could care less where he was drafted. My theory is that if Lance were to be given more minutes, he would find his rythym, loose the nerves, and his shot would come around. This has not been proven or dis-proven. The coach can sort the minutes out, but you seriously underrate Lance's potential.


If Hill doesn't re-sign, then the minutes should be there for Stephenson next year to prove Bird right. To me if Bird picks up a SG by the trade deadline, he's basically saying he's Lance isn't anywhere near NBA ready for solid PT.

Hicks
02-24-2012, 01:55 PM
I have a feeling that the people that love to judge Lance are doing it for non basketball reasons, they just don't like the guy are never will.

Maybe, but maybe not. Some people get wrapped up in the kind of player they like, and the further away a player is from that template, the less they like them.

People who like pass first, floor general point guards tend not to like ball dominant players. I think that's a big part of it, too.

Personally, while I have my own tastes, I can still appreciate just about any type of player if they're good at what they do.

Like I've repeated with DC in person and on here, I like DC the basketball player, but not DC the point guard because I like my starting point guard to do a better job than DC does at finding people to pass to and doing so effectively. But that doesn't mean DC is a bad basketball player, either.

So, perhaps with some people they're stuck on his previous bad behavior, but keep in mind the others who just don't care for his style of play at all.

90'sNBARocked
02-24-2012, 02:01 PM
I have a feeling that the people that love to judge Lance are doing it for non basketball reasons, they just don't like the guy are never will.

I agree 110% and thats ok, its thier right to so so

but any non biased knowledgable basketball fan who has watched Lance play would come to the conclusion that he has a chance to be a very solid player and has already shown the ability to do things on the court that I believe no other Pacer can do.

Thos same people probably wanted Lance to be found guilty so bad their dick was hard

Im done defending Lance. He is not perfect or an all star at this time, but he has made outstanding progress in my humble opinion and I am beyond pleased that for ONCE a Pacer who has early issues, did not fall further down , but spent an entire year shaping and changing his imagine and busting his hump to be better

Glad he is a Pacer, and hope he is for a long long time

Justin Tyme
02-24-2012, 02:05 PM
OK, JR Smith was drafted in the 1st at 18. Delonte West was drafted in the first round as well, #24. Bonzi Wells was taken at #11. Jason Williams (white PG guy) was nuttier than squirrel turds and he was taken #7. Ricky Davis was drafted at #21. Latrell Sprewell was drafted #24.

Are those better? They were all guards, and all were crazy. Yet it didn't doom any of them to drop to the 2nd round.

For goodness sakes Jason Williams was suspended 4 times for drugs in college, the last time permanently. When asked what he enjoyed about college he answered "I enjoyed getting kicked out". Then was drafted #7. He wasn't a center, he wasn't HOF material.


Love your post!

Justin Tyme
02-24-2012, 02:10 PM
What I am trying to say is fancy passes don't mean much Nice dribbling skills don't mean much


Those things sound familiar. Where have I heard them b4? Oh yeah, he's playing a less tha a min PT or racking up DNP with the Lakers.

Sookie
02-24-2012, 02:22 PM
I don't care for Stephenson's style of play, because it's not applicable to a winning NBA team.

He's not fundamentally sound. We talk about improvement on defense? The kid loses his man all the time and goes wider around screens than DC. Yea, he gets steals, but fundamentally he's still a poor defender.

And that's Lance in a nutshell. He'll have one fancy play - and it's fancy, it's not amazing. And it's often high risk, high reward. And people will be so wowed they miss the idiotic mistakes he consistently makes.

Right now, team's don't bother guarding him. So even though I think the comment about how he can "create 8 ft of space" doesn't exactly mean he's got a ton of talent anyway, but the fact that players don't usually get closer than 4 ft to him - because team's don't believe he can shoot - really helps him create that space.

I saw PG's talent right away, even in summer league. Hell I saw Lin's talent three years ago. Lance to me, is a flashy but mistake prone player. And that's not the product of being young and raw, it's the product of style of play. This isn't an analysis because of his off court issues. It's what I see when I watch him. Feel free to disagree (and many do) but the only time I see any bit of applicable talent is in transition, and you can't play in transition an entire game.

Has he improved, yes. But that's mostly because he's trying his best to fit into the team, and bringing a lot of energy and effort to the table. And, we've stopped making him play point guard.

AJ's a separate issue entirely. It's really simple for him. He's earned time with his play, and should get minutes - not only because he's earned them but because he helps the team. Whether we still find a few "developmental" minutes for Lance or not.

spazzxb
02-24-2012, 02:39 PM
Stopped reading right there.

It's like he's a victim or something to you. You make it sound like it's so tragic that he isn't getting more of a chance. You sound like Asher99 for Tyler. There's a reason he's only playing as much as he is. There's a reason he's only getting the ball as much as he does. And it's not because Vogel is a hater, or the players are freezing him out.

It's because he can't handle more than he's being given. Honestly, I would say he isn't even handling what he's getting very well.

The thing is I am fine with his limited minutes(he is really young). he just doesn't get the chance to really show what he can do in that limited environment. I defend the kids talent. Not sure what your deal is.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

90'sNBARocked
02-24-2012, 02:42 PM
I don't care for Stephenson's style of play, because it's not applicable to a winning NBA team.

He's not fundamentally sound. We talk about improvement on defense? The kid loses his man all the time and goes wider around screens than DC. Yea, he gets steals, but fundamentally he's still a poor defender.

And that's Lance in a nutshell. He'll have one fancy play - and it's fancy, it's not amazing. And it's often high risk, high reward. And people will be so wowed they miss the idiotic mistakes he consistently makes.

Right now, team's don't bother guarding him. So even though I think the comment about how he can "create 8 ft of space" doesn't exactly mean he's got a ton of talent anyway, but the fact that players don't usually get closer than 4 ft to him - because team's don't believe he can shoot - really helps him create that space.

I saw PG's talent right away, even in summer league. Hell I saw Lin's talent three years ago. Lance to me, is a flashy but mistake prone player. And that's not the product of being young and raw, it's the product of style of play. This isn't an analysis because of his off court issues. It's what I see when I watch him. Feel free to disagree (and many do) but the only time I see any bit of applicable talent is in transition, and you can't play in transition an entire game.

Has he improved, yes. But that's mostly because he's trying his best to fit into the team, and bringing a lot of energy and effort to the table. And, we've stopped making him play point guard.

AJ's a separate issue entirely. It's really simple for him. He's earned time with his play, and should get minutes - not only because he's earned them but because he helps the team. Whether we still find a few "developmental" minutes for Lance or not.

I got to say, I completely strugle with the rationalization for the bolded line. I dont think its fair or accurate to make that statement. Lance does more than just make "fancy plays" he makes solid passes , and had improved a lot since last year. IS he consistent at this time? No he is not, but he has shown improvement and abilities form last year

I really think your personal opinion of Lance's basketball abilities are greatly inacurate and without merit and based off a feeling you have personally on Lance realitive to the accusation of the girlfriend incident , even if he was found not guilty

I dont mean to call you out and think you bring great insight and knowledge to the disccussion here, but all that goes out the window when discussing Lance

The talent he has, and potential he holds, are echoed by the Pacers players and staff who have more insight than us here and I dont think are pressured to say fluffy PR about Lance to back up Bird

Cactus Jax
02-24-2012, 02:48 PM
I guess I'm the wack job, but I don't see much potential out there. He passes ok, some good, some bad TO's, his shot is decent not great by any means, his defense is ok not horrible not spectacular either, and he's gotten the playing time to prove all that stuff. If he was "born ready" he would go out and dominate those minutes mainly against reserve players.

Larry is the only reason people get in arguments over him.

Since86
02-24-2012, 03:01 PM
Maybe, but maybe not. Some people get wrapped up in the kind of player they like, and the further away a player is from that template, the less they like them.

People who like pass first, floor general point guards tend not to look ball dominant players. I think that's a big part of it, too.

Personally, while I have my own tastes, I can still appreciate just about any type of player if they're good at what they do.

Like I've repeated with DC in person and on here, I like DC the basketball player, but not DC the point guard because I like my starting point guard to do a better job than DC does at finding people to pass to and doing so effectively. But that doesn't mean DC is a bad basketball player, either.

So, perhaps with some people they're stuck on his previous bad behavior, but keep in mind the others who just don't care for his style of play at all.

Arguing you don't like his style of play is one thing, denying improvement is an entirely different beast.

vnzla81
02-24-2012, 03:17 PM
I don't care for Stephenson's style of play, because it's not applicable to a winning NBA team.

He's not fundamentally sound. We talk about improvement on defense? The kid loses his man all the time and goes wider around screens than DC. Yea, he gets steals, but fundamentally he's still a poor defender.

And that's Lance in a nutshell. He'll have one fancy play - and it's fancy, it's not amazing. And it's often high risk, high reward. And people will be so wowed they miss the idiotic mistakes he consistently makes.

Right now, team's don't bother guarding him. So even though I think the comment about how he can "create 8 ft of space" doesn't exactly mean he's got a ton of talent anyway, but the fact that players don't usually get closer than 4 ft to him - because team's don't believe he can shoot - really helps him create that space.

I saw PG's talent right away, even in summer league. Hell I saw Lin's talent three years ago. Lance to me, is a flashy but mistake prone player. And that's not the product of being young and raw, it's the product of style of play. This isn't an analysis because of his off court issues. It's what I see when I watch him. Feel free to disagree (and many do) but the only time I see any bit of applicable talent is in transition, and you can't play in transition an entire game.

Has he improved, yes. But that's mostly because he's trying his best to fit into the team, and bringing a lot of energy and effort to the table. And, we've stopped making him play point guard.

AJ's a separate issue entirely. It's really simple for him. He's earned time with his play, and should get minutes - not only because he's earned them but because he helps the team. Whether we still find a few "developmental" minutes for Lance or not.

Wow, I have a feeling that you just hate the guy, maybe because of his girlfriend issue or because you feel that he is taking minutes from your guy.

I also love how you like to critize me when I'm critical of a players especially DC but at least I'm able to say that he is a good player and that he has talent........ and I'm the hater .....

Since86
02-24-2012, 03:20 PM
Right now, team's don't bother guarding him. So even though I think the comment about how he can "create 8 ft of space" doesn't exactly mean he's got a ton of talent anyway, but the fact that players don't usually get closer than 4 ft to him - because team's don't believe he can shoot - really helps him create that space.

So AJ can't shoot either then, right?

vnzla81
02-24-2012, 03:29 PM
By the way I'm still waiting for the "haters police" here to tell Sookie "why are you hating our players"?........ I guess that doesn't happen because is Lance.

90'sNBARocked
02-24-2012, 03:47 PM
Sometimes you just can't win, no matter what

Sookie
02-24-2012, 03:48 PM
So AJ can't shoot either then, right?

About ten games ago, if I was the opposing coach and the bench unit was in, I would have said "collapse onto Hansbrough and leave everyone else open." Which was what teams were doing.

In fact, one of the things I kept saying was that AJ was wide open, which was why he was taking (and needing to take) those shots. I think Lance should take them too. (And he does, and I have never criticized him for missing shots. If anything I'll say he needs to take those shots when he gets gun shy.)

Since then, AJ's shot really well. So team's have defended him better.

BTW: Lance, call me a "hater" if you want. I really don't care, I'm just stating what I'm seeing. I'm allowed to have my opinion, and I'm not the only one who has it. I do have the ability to distinguish between off the court and on the court. (As I've said, Jason Kidd would have probably been my favorite all time basketball player..but..) And next year, when AJ's most likely on a different team, unless Lance's game magically changes, I'll still feel the same.

And I'd point out, no one is calling DC a future all star, or with all star potential. All I've ever said about the kid was he wasn't close to the worst starter ever and that he was probably an average PG , and he's able to slightly improve on things we don't like about him now. I just happen to think Lance's ceiling is a lot lower than a lot of people do. And I think it'll take a lot of work to get there.

Since86
02-24-2012, 03:49 PM
You didn't answer the question.

90'sNBARocked
02-24-2012, 03:51 PM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-rumors-chat-with-steve-kyler-22312




Jazzfan

Who player would you say drives you the most crazy with his inconsistency? Like he shows flashes of being a potential superstar but more often looks just average

Steve Kyler

A Player’s play generally doesn’t impact me either way… I have covered the game for almost 15 years, so I am not emotionally invested.

In general I have friends on almost every team in the league, so when I watch games I hope my friends play well… that the game is tightly contested and that no one gets hurt.

I do “root” for my friends to be successful… but I don;t get upset or annoyed if they don’t… in fact I do give guys mountains of crap when they do poorly… especially when they shoot badly.

There are guys I think could be really special if they put it all together… I like Lance Stephenson as a player… I love Earl Clark… I am thrilled for Alonzo Gee, because he and I talked about him having this kind of season.

DeMar DeRozan comes to mind… so does OJ Mayo… Brandon Jennings in terms of Superstar ability.

So this is coming from the founder of Hoopsworld.com, and a Houston Rockets fan. The question posed didnt even envoke a Lance response, there was no mention of Pacers. So I doubt this guy would have an alterior motive to praise Lance. He is just another talented writer who see's some of the same things that I and others here do

Sookie
02-24-2012, 04:00 PM
You didn't answer the question.

How did I not answer the question?

He wasn't shooting well for the first couple of games he played, and he is now. So he's proven he's worth guarding.

Lance has yet to do that. Although he seems to be more comfortable with midrange, so I suspect that if he keeps it up, teams will cover him from there.

I'd say at this point, AJ's shot is inconsistent. He could shoot his rookie season. He couldn't his sophomore season. He's been shooting well for half of this season and was absolutely abysmal the first half of games he played.

Anyway, I need to cut myself off from Lance discussions. I just don't see what others see.

Since86
02-24-2012, 04:08 PM
Because you said he's started to shoot better lately. Well, I'm not talking about lately, I'm asking if he's a good shooter.

His percentages in the past 10 games is a lot higher than his career average. About 10% higher. Is his average more indicative of what type of shooter he is, or is the last 10 games closer?

His career average is.

So AJ's career shooting percentage is 38%, and over a 1400 mins built in.

Yet Lance is a 37% career shooter, with less than 500 total minutes.


If you're going to argue teams let Lance shoot, because they don't think he can, then you'd also have to argue that AJ can't shoot either.

Just trying to see if you hand out criticisms to AJ as you do Lance.

Sookie
02-24-2012, 04:21 PM
Because you said he's started to shoot better lately. Well, I'm not talking about lately, I'm asking if he's a good shooter.

His percentages in the past 10 games is a lot higher than his career average. About 10% higher. Is his average more indicative of what type of shooter he is, or is the last 10 games closer?

His career average is.

So AJ's career shooting percentage is 38%, and over a 1400 mins built in.

Yet Lance is a 37% career shooter, with less than 500 total minutes.


If you're going to argue teams let Lance shoot, because they don't think he can, then you'd also have to argue that AJ can't shoot either.

Just trying to see if you hand out criticisms to AJ as you do Lance.

I just said AJ's shooting was awful and team's were letting him shoot. Now they aren't because he's been making them.

I think it's hard to say what AJ's shot is or will be for his career. Because half of those minutes came when his legs weren't under him.

I wasn't even criticizing Lance's lack of shooting well (I think Lance isn't comfortable and isn't confident with it, and I watched him enough in college to know he's decent from midrange, so no..his midrange shot isn't a complaint of mine.) my point was team's let him shoot, for the same reason they were previously letting AJ shoot. If he consistently shoots better, team's will cover him closer. That statement wasn't even about how well Lance can or can't shoot, just that Lance hasn't proven to teams that he can, so him creating space isn't that impressive because he's already got the space.

90'sNBARocked
02-24-2012, 04:29 PM
About ten games ago, if I was the opposing coach and the bench unit was in, I would have said "collapse onto Hansbrough and leave everyone else open." Which was what teams were doing.

In fact, one of the things I kept saying was that AJ was wide open, which was why he was taking (and needing to take) those shots. I think Lance should take them too. (And he does, and I have never criticized him for missing shots. If anything I'll say he needs to take those shots when he gets gun shy.)

Since then, AJ's shot really well. So team's have defended him better.

BTW: Lance, call me a "hater" if you want. I really don't care, I'm just stating what I'm seeing. I'm allowed to have my opinion, and I'm not the only one who has it. I do have the ability to distinguish between off the court and on the court. (As I've said, Jason Kidd would have probably been my favorite all time basketball player..but..) And next year, when AJ's most likely on a different team, unless Lance's game magically changes, I'll still feel the same.

And I'd point out, no one is calling DC a future all star, or with all star potential. All I've ever said about the kid was he wasn't close to the worst starter ever and that he was probably an average PG , and he's able to slightly improve on things we don't like about him now. I just happen to think Lance's ceiling is a lot lower than a lot of people do. And I think it'll take a lot of work to get there.

I dont think anyone has called you a hater (I know that I have not) and I appreciate your response, but it reminds me of a politician. It also conflicts with your assessment of everything Pacers which I think is very knowledgable

You also constantly make snide remarks when referring to Lance, and seem to take subtle and sometimes not so suttle shots at him when he is brought up here. You have evryright to your opinion, but sometimes your opinion on Lance, at least to me, is way over the top

That being said I see no benefit to beat a dead horse, and enjoy all you bring to the table, I just simply disagree with your assessment of Lance

Hicks
02-24-2012, 04:30 PM
Arguing you don't like his style of play is one thing, denying improvement is an entirely different beast.

Why are you directing that at me?

90'sNBARocked
02-24-2012, 04:32 PM
Also, what have you possibly seen to make you think teams "don't guard Lance"?

I have watched every minute Lance has played this year and I can't recall one time thast a defender sagged 3 feet off of Lance as the didnt think he could score

Most of his points have come from Lance beating his man off the dribble with a crossover or similar move. Its not like he is raining jumpers from 20 feet in the corner unguarded. I think this is a godd example when I say comments towards Lance tend to be over the top and unwarranted

90'sNBARocked
02-24-2012, 04:34 PM
Why are you directing that at me?

I believe he was, but not at you (meaning you felt that way) but more a comment on those who do feel that way

Sookie
02-24-2012, 04:53 PM
Also, what have you possibly seen to make you think teams "don't guard Lance"?

I have watched every minute Lance has played this year and I can't recall one time thast a defender sagged 3 feet off of Lance as the didnt think he could score

Most of his points have come from Lance beating his man off the dribble with a crossover or similar move. Its not like he is raining jumpers from 20 feet in the corner unguarded. I think this is a godd example when I say comments towards Lance tend to be over the top and unwarranted

Right, that's why they back off. Not that they don't think he can score, that they don't think he can shoot. Of course team's back off him. Why wouldn't they? He's made 2 threes this season, if he comes closer than the foul line, then they worry about guarding him, if not, they sag. This isn't making a statement over whether Lance can shoot or can't shoot. It's saying he hasn't proven to the opposing team's that he can shoot.

That's just normal. How was Jeremy Lin defended now compared to 11 games ago? He's proven that you need to heavily guard him. But that first game, there was no reason too.

Remember when JOB told the team to not heavily guard Melo from 3 because he was shooting like 19% from three. That's an extreme example of what most teams do. (Now, when Melo made the first couple, we should have made an adjustment) and only the fact that it was Melo would make anyone think twice about sagging off of a 19% shooter.

I've made the exact same comment about AJ and Tyler. When AJ was going like 1-5 every night, I was like "still take those shots to force teams to guard you." Because players backed off of him, and crowded around Tyler. So he wasn't making shots, and being a liability made him unable to get the ball to Tyler because his man was making Tyler's life miserable.

I've repeatedly said Tyler needs to work on his foul line jump shot to get it consistent because team's don't worry about it unless he makes his first one. Then they have to follow him out there. If he doesn't, opposing players don't buy the head fakes and crowd the paint. And why wouldn't they? If he doesn't make his first, he likely doesn't get hot from there, and now he just takes bad shots.

Tyler's someone who has proven that he can get really hot from the foul line and kill a team. But opposing team's still don't defend him from there until he proves he's making them.

I think you're taking it too personal. I've actually been very complimentary towards Lance of late. Consistently citing his energy and effort. And those two things are a big deal for me. It's why I still hesitate to criticize Tyler. And I think if you have those two traits going for you, you can improve a lot. My disagreement with a lot of people just happens to be where Lance's ceiling is. I think it's solid backup shooting guard. And I think he'll have to revamp a lot of his game to get there. Others think it's all star.

90'sNBARocked
02-24-2012, 06:21 PM
Right, that's why they back off. Not that they don't think he can score, that they don't think he can shoot. Of course team's back off him. Why wouldn't they? He's made 2 threes this season, if he comes closer than the foul line, then they worry about guarding him, if not, they sag. This isn't making a statement over whether Lance can shoot or can't shoot. It's saying he hasn't proven to the opposing team's that he can shoot.

That's just normal. How was Jeremy Lin defended now compared to 11 games ago? He's proven that you need to heavily guard him. But that first game, there was no reason too.

Remember when JOB told the team to not heavily guard Melo from 3 because he was shooting like 19% from three. That's an extreme example of what most teams do. (Now, when Melo made the first couple, we should have made an adjustment) and only the fact that it was Melo would make anyone think twice about sagging off of a 19% shooter.

I've made the exact same comment about AJ and Tyler. When AJ was going like 1-5 every night, I was like "still take those shots to force teams to guard you." Because players backed off of him, and crowded around Tyler. So he wasn't making shots, and being a liability made him unable to get the ball to Tyler because his man was making Tyler's life miserable.

I've repeatedly said Tyler needs to work on his foul line jump shot to get it consistent because team's don't worry about it unless he makes his first one. Then they have to follow him out there. If he doesn't, opposing players don't buy the head fakes and crowd the paint. And why wouldn't they? If he doesn't make his first, he likely doesn't get hot from there, and now he just takes bad shots.

Tyler's someone who has proven that he can get really hot from the foul line and kill a team. But opposing team's still don't defend him from there until he proves he's making them.

I think you're taking it too personal. I've actually been very complimentary towards Lance of late. Consistently citing his energy and effort. And those two things are a big deal for me. It's why I still hesitate to criticize Tyler. And I think if you have those two traits going for you, you can improve a lot. My disagreement with a lot of people just happens to be where Lance's ceiling is. I think it's solid backup shooting guard. And I think he'll have to revamp a lot of his game to get there. Others think it's all star.

You might insert a decent word on Lance every blue moon but that doesnt mask the overwhelming number of times , in my opinion, you have gone over the top in critcizing staements made by Lance

Such as : "Defenders backing off of Lance"

Please pull up a youtube clip, just one where he has the ball and is not being guarded, becuase I have yet to see that, and would also say most NBA players realize just to make it to a NBA team means you haev skills. It would be disresepectful to think another player would sag off of Lance as though he cant score, shot , whatever

It is personal, no doubt , exactley the same way you do with AJ.. pot meet kettle

Whatever, anytime you are ready let me know and I will be glad to make a wager on the future of Lance Stephenson and his success in the NBA

Sookie
02-24-2012, 07:30 PM
You might insert a decent word on Lance every blue moon but that doesnt mask the overwhelming number of times , in my opinion, you have gone over the top in critcizing staements made by Lance

Such as : "Defenders backing off of Lance"

Please pull up a youtube clip, just one where he has the ball and is not being guarded, becuase I have yet to see that, and would also say most NBA players realize just to make it to a NBA team means you haev skills. It would be disresepectful to think another player would sag off of Lance as though he cant score, shot , whatever

It is personal, no doubt , exactley the same way you do with AJ.. pot meet kettle

Whatever, anytime you are ready let me know and I will be glad to make a wager on the future of Lance Stephenson and his success in the NBA

I give up. You really just read what you want to read.

90'sNBARocked
02-24-2012, 08:25 PM
I give up. You really just read what you want to read.

I read what you write

also its just a debate over two NBA players

In the grand scheem of things in life its nothing

so we disagree , I am passionate about things, same as you are. things is it never got to put downs or personal insults. Just sometimes heated debate

so hope its just that cause I enjoy hearing your opinions

CJ Jones
02-24-2012, 10:34 PM
You mean like the rest of the NBA? Sure, I'll hang my hat in with that group. In the NBA 2nd round picks that work out are exceedingly rare. The very fact that he slid that far tells me everything I need to know about the NBA's opinion of him.

Just for reference here are what guys drafted 40th overall (like Lance) averaged from 1989 to 2008. This is no small sample. The average career is as follows ...

134 games, 11.5 minutes per, 4.3 points per, 1.7 rebounds per, and 1.0 assists per. 25% of those picked never even played in the NBA.

When you realize how top heavy the NBA draft is, and how pathetically bad 2nd round picks fare in the NBA, you get a pretty good gauge on what NBA GM's think of guys when they fall that far. Sure there are exceptions, but most of them garner playing time immediately and contribute. Van Exel, 13 points and 6 assists his rookie year, Arenas 10 points, 3 rebounds and 4 assists his rookie year. Manu had 8 points, 2 rebounds and 2 assists. Boozer had 10 points and 7 rebounds.

So yes, I think the same of him as the rest of the NBA GM's and I'll take my chances with that side more often than not.

Impressive post, but I don't see how that proves GM's didn't see talent just because they chose not to draft him.

Lance is different than the others because he's been in the spotlight since he was 14. Anyone could watch videos of him on YouTube and see that he was an immature kid growing up in an environment that's not conducive to success. That along with the sexual assault case scared away the big name schools. He was ranked 12th in the country by espnu so it certainly wasn't because of a lack of talent.

The reason he struggled in college is because he had only played one way his whole life... get yours. He averaged 28/10/4 his senior year of high school and finished the all time leader in points scored in the state of New York. He wasn't accustomed to team basketball so it doesn't surprise me he had a hard time adjusting. He shouldn't have left college early, if he'd have stayed another year he'd have been taken in the first round.

Anyway, the kids played a half a season worth a games in his career... give him a chance. You're gonna feel pretty silly when he makes it.






Larry is the only reason people get in arguments over him.

I know it kills you guys that Larry's in love with his talent. :laugh:

It cracks me up when people think they know more about this game than Larry.


Also, what have you possibly seen to make you think teams "don't guard Lance"?


She's right 90's, the last few games I've noticed teams back off to give him the 3. That's it though, there not giving him mid range jumpers. The move and shot he made on Aminu had nothing to do with him sagging off and disrespecting Lance... he just got his ankles broke.

BlueNGold
02-24-2012, 10:55 PM
I ripped Larry Bird from his toes to his nose for acquiring Lance Stephenson because after the JO era debacle, the last thing I wanted was another punk on the team.

Then I saw him try to guard PG's in summer league and I dismissed his ability to ever play PG in the NBA...or in the NBA at all because he's not an NBA level SG. His higher level skills are passing and passing. Maybe strength to the bucket.

But then I started watching him...all while he seemed to be keeping his nose clean and getting along better with his team mates.

He started to look like he might be able to defend a little. Then he started getting his hand on some balls. Then he basically looked at least competent defending...which I thought was a minor miracle.

Now I'm seeing his shot improve a little. He's starting to make less stupid plays but the raw talent, size, strength, ability to find his team mates...all that promise is starting to take shape. At least somewhat.

Then I think back about how...I think it was Mark Boyle (sorry if I'm wrong about that)...said Lance is one of the two most talented players on the team. I'm sure he knows something. Anyway, it was a Pacer insider and they were serious. This isn't about stroking Lance either. He is a young player who was not well coached IMO and is just learning PG at the NBA level. That's an amazingly hard thing to do. Even at that rate, his weaknesses are no longer glaring.

Does he make some dumb plays? Sure. So did...and does...Rajon Rondo.

Anyway, this former Lance doubter sees at least a serviceable backup and one with potential that remains much higher than that.

Hibbert
02-24-2012, 11:05 PM
I don't care for Stephenson's style of play, because it's not applicable to a winning NBA team.

He's not fundamentally sound. We talk about improvement on defense? The kid loses his man all the time and goes wider around screens than DC. Yea, he gets steals, but fundamentally he's still a poor defender.

And that's Lance in a nutshell. He'll have one fancy play - and it's fancy, it's not amazing. And it's often high risk, high reward. And people will be so wowed they miss the idiotic mistakes he consistently makes.

Right now, team's don't bother guarding him. So even though I think the comment about how he can "create 8 ft of space" doesn't exactly mean he's got a ton of talent anyway, but the fact that players don't usually get closer than 4 ft to him - because team's don't believe he can shoot - really helps him create that space.

I saw PG's talent right away, even in summer league. Hell I saw Lin's talent three years ago. Lance to me, is a flashy but mistake prone player. And that's not the product of being young and raw, it's the product of style of play. This isn't an analysis because of his off court issues. It's what I see when I watch him. Feel free to disagree (and many do) but the only time I see any bit of applicable talent is in transition, and you can't play in transition an entire game.

Has he improved, yes. But that's mostly because he's trying his best to fit into the team, and bringing a lot of energy and effort to the table. And, we've stopped making him play point guard.

AJ's a separate issue entirely. It's really simple for him. He's earned time with his play, and should get minutes - not only because he's earned them but because he helps the team. Whether we still find a few "developmental" minutes for Lance or not.

This is the biased bs that I cannot stand to read over and over all the time on here. Your obsessed with Price and the only reason you don't like Lance is cause he takes away minutes that would go to Price if not for Lance. Only talent is in transition? What kind of stuff is that? Lance is oozing talent and you know it, if you watch him play. The inevitable will happen as long as he stays on track and I will be the first to remind you of this poorly thought out spiteful post.

McKeyFan
02-25-2012, 12:33 PM
I read your post, and I disagreed. You think AJ has reached his ceiling, yet he continues to improve. You say Lance has borderline all-star potential, yet he doesn't know how to play fundamentally sound basketball.

I don't agree with this.

His defense has become sound. He gets angles. He has a good sense of getting through picks. He keeps an eye on his man in his peripheral a lot better than Granger.

He looks to penetrate, create space, and pass to open teammates. That's a lot more "fundamentally sound" than the several shoot first players on our team.

Yes, he makes too many mistakes and turnovers right now. But that has more to do with timing and getting a feel for the game, not fundamentals.

I think Lance is quite fundamentally sound.

Sookie
02-25-2012, 01:18 PM
I read what you write

also its just a debate over two NBA players

In the grand scheem of things in life its nothing

so we disagree , I am passionate about things, same as you are. things is it never got to put downs or personal insults. Just sometimes heated debate

so hope its just that cause I enjoy hearing your opinions

You read what I'm stating as bashing when I'm just stating what I'm seeing. You read a lot of things I say as bashing, where it's not intended to be. (If I was bashing Lance...you'd know. :laugh:) Think about it, why would any team play Lance for the jump shot? He hasn't proven he can make them, and he'd rather go to the basket or pass. So why would people play him tightly? Ten games ago, they weren't playing AJ for it, they don't defend Tyler at the free throw line unless he makes one, they still don't defend Dahntay from three, even though he actually shoots a decent percentage - but the standard for his whole career was "let him shoot that." But how on earth is "teams let Lance shoot the jump shot" bashing?


If he proves me wrong, I'll come out and say it. But he hasn't yet. He hasn't shown me why you guys are all excited about him. I disagree with the idea that he's fundamentally sound and that a lot of mistakes come from him not playing enough. I think it comes from his style of play.

My bias doesn't come from the fact that he's stealing minutes from AJ. If/when AJ's not on the team next season, unless there's a dramatic change in Lance, I'll feel the same way. And he's not taking minutes from AJ anyway. He's not playing PG. Hill and DC are "stealing" minutes from AJ. And I'm quicker than anyone to stick up for DC, and I like Hill - and think he's the best player between the three, although I don't think he's a pg. So yes, if AJ plays I don't expect Lance to play, but he's not directly competing. And it's not the reason why I dislike the way Lance plays, or don't see the talent.

If I have a bias, it's in what Hicks said. I don't like that style of play when it's done well. And I happen to separate physical ability with talent and skills. (As in, I know he's stronger than most point guards and shooting guards. But I'm not going to list that as basketball talent.) I'm not quick to see the "talent" in that style of play. But part of the reason for that is I find it more frustrating than anything.

Justin Tyme
02-25-2012, 02:09 PM
I'm so tired of this AJ/Lance carp! It's nothing more than Tyler/McBob all over again. We see how that ended up. I can't wait until one or the other isn't on the team, hopefully next year. Either AJ isn't re-signed or Lance is trade fodder bringing in a player of need. It just can't happen fast enough for me!

spazzxb
02-25-2012, 03:37 PM
I'm so tired of this AJ/Lance carp! It's nothing more than Tyler/McBob all over again. We see how that ended up. I can't wait until one or the other isn't on the team, hopefully next year. Either AJ isn't re-signed or Lance is trade fodder bringing in a player of need. It just can't happen fast enough for me!

At least Tyler and Josh were fighting for the same minutes. I don't like carp either.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

Justin Tyme
02-25-2012, 06:57 PM
At least Tyler and Josh were fighting for the same minutes. I don't like carp either.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus


I don't like fish unless it is deep fat fried and smothered in tartar sauce. Arby's has a good fish sandwich on sale for 2 for $5. :D

CableKC
02-25-2012, 07:06 PM
I don't like fish unless it is deep fat fried and smothered in tartar sauce. Arby's has a good fish sandwich on sale for 2 for $5. :D
Have you tried the Wendy's Panko-breaded Fish fillet sandwich? It's pretty good ;)

As for the AJ/Lance debate now.....I'll go with whoever helps us win NOW. I know who is the long-term and short-term option.....but I think that Bird is all about "winning as many games now" given this shortened season and the importance of winning as many games as possible.

Naptown_Seth
02-25-2012, 07:27 PM
AJ earned finishing minutes over Collison a few games ago. So first off Vogel HAS chosen to go with AJ when its been working, even with "better" players sitting on the bench, and AJ has played better of late and not just in that game.

None of this is permanent, it's going to obviously be by feel and by who's got things going the right way with the guys on the court. If Lou came in at PF and somehow was playing a lot better than West on that night I can see Vogel sticking with him too.


Bottom line - if AJ is out there he's probably having a pretty decent run, and this is a good thing for the Pacers, not a problem. Frankly it falls under my "no s***" rule, a guy playing well keeps playing. Look at me, I should write the bible on basketball coaching. ;)

Naptown_Seth
02-25-2012, 07:31 PM
I don't agree with this.

His defense has become sound. He gets angles. He has a good sense of getting through picks. He keeps an eye on his man in his peripheral a lot better than Granger.

He looks to penetrate, create space, and pass to open teammates. That's a lot more "fundamentally sound" than the several shoot first players on our team.

Yes, he makes too many mistakes and turnovers right now. But that has more to do with timing and getting a feel for the game, not fundamentals.

I think Lance is quite fundamentally sound.
I still prefer AJ (apart from some of his shot selection) but I will agree that Lance has shown some improvement.

I haven't seen much of "might be an all-star" type of play, but he's better than he was last year. To me he looks like a classic career backup. So does AJ.

To me AJ has some level of Workman to him where he has more success than his skill level would suggest, which I attribute to his very high gamer IQ (again, apart from some of the shot selection).

Naptown_Seth
02-25-2012, 07:51 PM
It cracks me up when people think they know more about this game than Larry....said James White.

Awesome call. If you can play then you can clearly identify talent from the outside better than anyone else, just like Kesha will always be a better music evaluator than ANY writer in the entire history of Rolling Stone Magazine because she's had hit records.


Also it kills me when people think that Donnie Walsh was ever a better GM than Michael Jordan. What could Donnie possibly know about talent that Jordan didn't? This is also why McHale and Ainge destroy the GMs that never played NBA ball. How could those people possibly know?

How could Vogel possibly know more about NBA talent than Isiah, or be a better coach? Answer, he simply couldn't and doesn't. Isiah for GM/coach I say. Let's get back to winning around here.



Sheesh. Evaluation is not the same thing as playing or even just being around the game. Lots of guys practice shooting, Larry could do it better than the rest of them despite their hours in the gym. Lots of guys watch basketball prospects, but some recognize potential better than the rest. And as a group you'll find that some hardcore fans aren't exactly dumb when it comes to recognizing the qualities needed to play.




I mean on Digest we've got to hear "it's funny how people think they know more than Larry" since we had about 3 years of people pointing out all the crap that JOB was doing wrong, and then complaining when Larry extended him and had to eat that cost with a firing a few months later.

Seems to me on the JOB front A LOT of fans knew better than Larry, and the results have verified it 100%. IMMEDIATELY the team got dramatically better.


Larry might be able to out GM all of us, or certainly a top GM could out GM all of us, but as a group over the long haul we will have our share of "we were right" moments. Maybe as much as 30-40% of the time. Part of it is the benefit of group-think/knowledge, part of it is the benefit of being on the outside looking in (it is often EASIER to critique than to do because of this).

If I were the GM I'd likely do much worse, but it wouldn't have anything to do with how much NCAA or NBA ball I'd played because that wouldn't be my job requirement.

Anthem
02-25-2012, 08:51 PM
Gerald Green is one of many who comes to mind with talent who didn't make it or did very little with that touted talent they were to have had.
Plenty of guys come into the league with talent. What sets them apart is whether they get better once they're here.

Gerald Green never did. Lance already has. He's not improved enough to merit a starting role, and maybe not even to be ahead of AJ in the rotation. But he's improved already, and it's not unreasonable to think he'll continue to do so.

Anthem
02-25-2012, 09:08 PM
I like Lance a lot, and would love to see him get developmental minutes where possible. But right now he's not a threat past 18' out, and until that changes he's going to be limited in his effectiveness. Hard to blow by guys when they sag off you that much.

If he works hard over the summer and comes back with some range, he'll be a solid backup at the very least.

Anthem
02-25-2012, 09:39 PM
By the way I'm still waiting for the "haters police" here to tell Sookie "why are you hating our players"?........ I guess that doesn't happen because is Lance.
Nope, it doesn't happen because she's Sookie. The majority of her posts are positive.

vnzla81
02-25-2012, 09:46 PM
Nope, it doesn't happen because she's Sookie. The majority of her posts are positive.

Yeah I bet that people hating Lance in the first place doesn't have anything to do with that......



Thanks for taking time from your high horse riding to tell me that tough, I feel honored......

Sookie
02-25-2012, 09:57 PM
Yeah I bet that people hating Lance in the first place doesn't have anything to do with that......



Thanks for taking time from your high horse riding to tell me that tough, I feel honored......

Don't most people here like Lance?

vnzla81
02-25-2012, 10:10 PM
Don't most people here like Lance?

I don't think so, there is a reason why me and 90's have been fighting that fight for a long time, we were the only ones at one time, I don't really know how many supporters he has now but I still think the majority don't like him.

Justin Tyme
02-25-2012, 10:28 PM
Have you tried the Wendy's Panko-breaded Fish fillet sandwich? It's pretty good ;)

As for the AJ/Lance debate now.....I'll go with whoever helps us win NOW. I know who is the long-term and short-term option.....but I think that Bird is all about "winning as many games now" given this shortened season and the importance of winning as many games as possible.


No, but my other half mentioned it this past Thursday when we went to Arby's for the fish sandwich. I'll have to make an effort to try it in the near future.

I can agree, but I don't see either as the ANSWER to much other than being a reserve who will get some PT here and there. The back n forth about which is better has been cussed and discussed to where one can't even bring up a view that hasn't already been discussed umpteen times. Neither will ever be starter on a bottom feeder team let alone on a good team. The issue should be how can the Pacers get a player better than both for the future. After watching both play at times, I'm not sure that should be real hard thing for Bird to accomplish. JMOAA

CJ Jones
02-26-2012, 06:32 AM
...said James White.

Awesome call. If you can play then you can clearly identify talent from the outside better than anyone else, just like Kesha will always be a better music evaluator than ANY writer in the entire history of Rolling Stone Magazine because she's had hit records.


Also it kills me when people think that Donnie Walsh was ever a better GM than Michael Jordan. What could Donnie possibly know about talent that Jordan didn't? This is also why McHale and Ainge destroy the GMs that never played NBA ball. How could those people possibly know?

How could Vogel possibly know more about NBA talent than Isiah, or be a better coach? Answer, he simply couldn't and doesn't. Isiah for GM/coach I say. Let's get back to winning around here.



Sheesh. Evaluation is not the same thing as playing or even just being around the game. Lots of guys practice shooting, Larry could do it better than the rest of them despite their hours in the gym. Lots of guys watch basketball prospects, but some recognize potential better than the rest. And as a group you'll find that some hardcore fans aren't exactly dumb when it comes to recognizing the qualities needed to play.




I mean on Digest we've got to hear "it's funny how people think they know more than Larry" since we had about 3 years of people pointing out all the crap that JOB was doing wrong, and then complaining when Larry extended him and had to eat that cost with a firing a few months later.

Seems to me on the JOB front A LOT of fans knew better than Larry, and the results have verified it 100%. IMMEDIATELY the team got dramatically better.


Larry might be able to out GM all of us, or certainly a top GM could out GM all of us, but as a group over the long haul we will have our share of "we were right" moments. Maybe as much as 30-40% of the time. Part of it is the benefit of group-think/knowledge, part of it is the benefit of being on the outside looking in (it is often EASIER to critique than to do because of this).

If I were the GM I'd likely do much worse, but it wouldn't have anything to do with how much NCAA or NBA ball I'd played because that wouldn't be my job requirement.

Did James White ever play a game for the Pacers? :-p

My comment was directed at the people that think Lance isn't talented. That's a pretty audacious stance to take when there's a much more qualified person that sees him play daily saying that he's not only talented, but maybe the most talented player on the team. It's funny to me when people want to label him as a "classic career backup" or write him off completely when he's 21 and played in only a half season worth of games in his career.

Everyone has a right to their opinion and of course we're going to be right occasionally, but lets not get carried away here. We're not Rolling Stones writers or Donnie Walsh. Larry's forgotten more about basketball than we'll ever know. If he says a player is talented I believe him especially when I can see that talent myself.

I mean no disrespect because you guys and gals definitely know your ****. When it comes to lance though, people can be strange around here.

spazzxb
02-26-2012, 08:07 AM
AJ earned finishing minutes over Collison a few games ago. So first off Vogel HAS chosen to go with AJ when its been working, even with "better" players sitting on the bench, and AJ has played better of late and not just in that game.

None of this is permanent, it's going to obviously be by feel and by who's got things going the right way with the guys on the court. If Lou came in at PF and somehow was playing a lot better than West on that night I can see Vogel sticking with him too.


Bottom line - if AJ is out there he's probably having a pretty decent run, and this is a good thing for the Pacers, not a problem. Frankly it falls under my "no s***" rule, a guy playing well keeps playing. Look at me, I should write the bible on basketball coaching. ;)

Or maybe DC can't defend Dwill or Marrow. Against New Jersey DC really was that bad. DC never should have started that game. Against new Jersey DC is our 4rth best point guard.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

spazzxb
02-26-2012, 08:13 AM
I don't think so, there is a reason why me and 90's have been fighting that fight for a long time, we were the only ones at one time, I don't really know how many supporters he has now but I still think the majority don't like him.

your full of pooh if you think you stood up for him before me.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

Anthem
02-26-2012, 12:06 PM
:laugh: We're all basketball hipsters... "I liked player X before it was cool."

xBulletproof
02-26-2012, 02:36 PM
When it comes to lance though, people can be strange around here.

Well, we most certainly agree on that.

McKeyFan
02-26-2012, 03:48 PM
I don't think so, there is a reason why me and 90's have been fighting that fight for a long time, we were the only ones at one time, I don't really know how many supporters he has now but I still think the majority don't like him.
My sense is that it's about 50/50 around here on Lance.

It's just that not many are moderate. It's seems to be mostly love or hate.

McKeyFan
02-26-2012, 03:56 PM
:laugh: We're all basketball hipsters... "I liked player X before it was cool."
I started this thread during summer league right after we drafted Lance. Anthem, you were pretty positive even then. But the polarizing views were already there, and this was before the "incident."

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=54815&highlight=Revolutionize

spazzxb
02-26-2012, 05:21 PM
Without the domestic violence issue most fans would have always liked him(not everyone). for me the defense started with telling people to stop assuming every bad rumor is a fact. I started defending, when people started hating. I have no desire to say I was first, but I have been here.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

Anthem
02-26-2012, 05:27 PM
Anthem, you were pretty positive even then.
I'm generally positive towards all of our players. Even for the guys I was happy to see gone (Murphy, Dunleavy) I generally try to point out the positives.

It's not like I don't see flaws in every single player on current and past teams. I just try to be the same online as I am in real life, and if you go through life with "X is absolute crap unless it is perfect" as your operating philosophy, you are gonna be lonely and miserable.

At that point, your only way to get friendly interaction with others will be to sign onto anonymous message boards. :flirt: