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Peck
02-22-2012, 03:22 AM
A win is a win.

This one was hard to swallow though. No Okafor, no Landry this should have been no problem.

Yes I know that they have been playing tougher than their record indicates they should and I know that they were trying to kick a losing streak. But there is just no reason at all we should have had to go to overtime to beat them. Also what made it worse was that they really led for most of the game and we came back in the 4th.

Our slow starts are going to be the death of us or at least me.

I’m not going to lie or pretty this up any, tonight’s game was disturbing. Not just because what I saw on the floor (not everybody played bad btw) but what I saw on the bench.

There was a confrontation between Danny Granger & Frank Vogel on the 20 second time out in the first quarter (you know the time he had to use a second time out to wake us up). Frank, you could see, was mad when he called the time out and he yelled at Danny as soon as he walked up to the bench. Danny yelled right back at him to which Darren Collison yelled at Danny. This didn’t last for very long, a few seconds at best, but needless to say it was not fun to watch. You could see Roy being physically uncomfortable at that point.

Then later in the game when Roy made the big block, Dahntay Jones gets up and wags his finger at the Hornets. That’s not that bad but not to be outdone Lance Stephenson gets up and is not content to do a finger wag he decides he has to do an entire arm and body wave. At this point in time Trevor Ariza is standing right there and tells him to sit his punk *** down. Finally Lance backs away when the referee gets there. Normally it’s no big deal but with all of the complaining we are getting from other teams about this type of behavior I think Dahntay is going to have to be more of a mentor the other way and not a leader in taunting from the bench. It was clearly obvious that Lance was taking his ques from Jones here.

I’m not going to complain about a victory but frankly this game does not give me the confidence that our win streak is just us taking care of a few cupcake teams and if this were any other team that was decent we would have walked out of there with a loss.

We really need George Hill back and healthy, which he is supposed to be tonight. We will see.

Sorry I wish I was a little more up beat, I think I’m starting to come down with a cold and it is affecting my mood. Either that or seeing Solomon Jones set picks that our point guards thought were set by Rick Mahorn so they couldn’t get through them.

Let’s just do grades tonight.

David West: B+ Once again hit a big clutch shot down towards the end of the game. He is very efficient on the offensive end and he grabbed a few rebounds. He also threw a pass to the 5th row across the court for some reason as well, but for whatever reason he tends to throw one bad pass a game. The next time though he steps up and cuts off a guard on a drive to the basket will be his first time. If Roy isn’t in the game we have no rim protection at all.

Danny Granger: F I don’t care if he hit a three to open up overtime or not. I kept wondering for most of the game if he had overdosed on his sleeping pills again. Lifeless, careless, poor attitude and worst of all horrid body language. I have no idea what was up with him tonight but I can tell you this was the worst game I’ve seen him play in a long time. Ariza always has been a tough matchup for him because of his speed but Danny was just not himself tonight. Also Frank until proven otherwise is all that is wise, if he tells you that you are on the wrong spot on the floor then you are on the wrong spot on defense. You DON’T argue with him. Did you see Roy having to pat Danny on the head several times tonight to kind of say “it’ll be ok”? Someone said he was sick, I don’t know if that is true or not, but he played like a sick person for sure. Also stop shooting so many damned three’s, pathetic.

Roy Hibbert: A+ What I liked the most for Roy was that in the early stages of the game he missed a couple of little hook shots. Instead of just forcing up more he decided that he would have his own dunk contest where he just hammered home three in a row. But Roy’s rebounding and defense was key to tonight’s game. His scoring was huge as well but again he was an interior presence and they just could not get rebounds away from him. He very much reminds me of the Marvel Character Gladiator. The more confidence he has the stronger he becomes.

Paul George: A Solid all around game. I will complain because he also took too many three point attempts but he made up for it with several drives to the lane and solid passing. This was a great overall game from him and of course his denizen of fans got to see his windmill dunk. What they may have missed though unless they were there was his statue of liberty dunk from the side in the layup lines in the pre-game. Was that a preview?

Darren Collison: A- I don’t feel like he deserves an A- but it’s just hard to not give it to him considering his stat line tonight, he even had a good field goal %. Now had he missed that second free throw at the end of the game his grade would be vastly different. But he didn’t. He was just torched though by Jack and Vasquez on the defensive end.

Tyler Hansbrough: D What most of you feared about Tyler’s shot prior to him playing in an NBA game came true tonight. If he wasn’t getting foul’s called, which he wasn’t, then his shot is just an ugly unorthodox hook that has very little chance of going in. He did deny position to Kaman a few times but other than that his time on the floor was spent asking why he wasn’t getting the calls and looking totally perplexed.

A.J. Price: B+ Did a little better job on Jack than Daren did but this wasn’t his best defensive outing either. He did hit his shots tonight, which is a bonus, but I think he kind of stepped back a little from running the offense like h had been doing and reverted to looking for his own shot a little. Also he denied Dahntay Jones his rightful technical free throw attempt, but I guess nobody really cares about that. It will be interesting to see what happens when George does return.

Lance Stephenson: C He didn’t do anything stupid (on the court) and he did have a really nice pull up jumper. C might be a little low but he didn’t play much really and didn’t impact the game all of that much.

Dahntay Jones: C- Not his finest game, which is a shame because last night I had a pretty decent write up on him for the very good game he had vs. the Bobcats. He still played hard on defense and he only took one shot which was a wide open three in the corner that he missed.

Jeff Foster: C I know its sacred that we all must praise Jeff Foster and I will give him credit for playing very good defense & boxing out for rebound off of free throws. But other than that, he didn’t even attempt a shot and the two free throws he took he missed.


And now for absolutely no reason Dubcat.


http://whatthecool.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/dub-step-cat-1.jpg

Pacers4Life
02-22-2012, 03:26 AM
First! Thanks for the write up as always peck. Big win for the boys in blue tonight.. Bigger game from the big fella himself. Ecstatic with ugly W.

TheDavisBrothers
02-22-2012, 03:38 AM
I know he's everyone's favorite son but PG was pretty bad on both offense and defense the first 3 quarters, but with that said, he did play spectacular in the 4th and overtime. Just sayin...

Saras
02-22-2012, 03:47 AM
George wasnt good all game, he needed 20 shots for 20 points, his D wasnt amazing. If you hate collison which had 8-11 8reb 6ast game tonight, atleast stop worshipping George which is at best average nba player.

Take off your pink glasses people.

p.s i personally really like George from day 1, but i would rather leave him alone and watch him improve and treat everyone in team fairly.

And 90% of people here questoned Price's ability to be a basketball player even, now he is really solid :) :) :) ( just talking all around, not this thread ).

presto123
02-22-2012, 04:00 AM
I know exactly why Vogel yelled at Danny. He was jogging the length of the court behind a Hornets player(his man I think) who took it all the way in for a layup. I looked at the screen in disbelief and said.....you got to be kidding me Danny. Danny is one head scratcher of a player sometimes.

Asher99
02-22-2012, 04:10 AM
A bit harsh on Danny he seemed like he was legit sick tonight and he did finish up strong with 9 points in the 4th and OT.

I think DC should be higher he played great from hitting the last shot of the first half on. He went 7-of-9 from the field scoring 16 points with 5 assists and 7 rebounds from that shot to end the half on. Also 11 of Jacks 19 was when AJ was in for DC. The Vasquez/Jack combo had 7 points when DC was in during the second half and OT. Vasquez hit a 3 to kick off NOLA's second half, a FT with 01:41 left in the game and 3 with them down 10 with 1:07 left in OT.

rock747
02-22-2012, 04:41 AM
A win is a win.

This one was hard to swallow though. No Okafor, no Landry this should have been no problem.

Yes I know that they have been playing tougher than their record indicates they should and I know that they were trying to kick a losing streak. But there is just no reason at all we should have had to go to overtime to beat them. Also what made it worse was that they really led for most of the game and we came back in the 4th.

Our slow starts are going to be the death of us or at least me.

Iím not going to lie or pretty this up any, tonightís game was disturbing. Not just because what I saw on the floor (not everybody played bad btw) but what I saw on the bench.

There was a confrontation between Danny Granger & Frank Vogel on the 20 second time out in the first quarter (you know the time he had to use a second time out to wake us up). Frank, you could see, was mad when he called the time out and he yelled at Danny as soon as he walked up to the bench. Danny yelled right back at him to which Darren Collison yelled at Danny. This didnít last for very long, a few seconds at best, but needless to say it was not fun to watch. You could see Roy being physically uncomfortable at that point.

Then later in the game when Roy made the big block, Dahntay Jones gets up and wags his finger at the Hornets. Thatís not that bad but not to be outdone Lance Stephenson gets up and is not content to do a finger wag he decides he has to do an entire arm and body wave. At this point in time Trevor Ariza is standing right there and tells him to sit his punk *** down. Finally Lance backs away when the referee gets there. Normally itís no big deal but with all of the complaining we are getting from other teams about this type of behavior I think Dahntay is going to have to be more of a mentor the other way and not a leader in taunting from the bench. It was clearly obvious that Lance was taking his ques from Jones here.

Iím not going to complain about a victory but frankly this game does not give me the confidence that our win streak is just us taking care of a few cupcake teams and if this were any other team that was decent we would have walked out of there with a loss.

We really need George Hill back and healthy, which he is supposed to be tonight. We will see.

Sorry I wish I was a little more up beat, I think Iím starting to come down with a cold and it is affecting my mood. Either that or seeing Solomon Jones set picks that our point guards thought were set by Rick Mahorn so they couldnít get through them.

Letís just do grades tonight.

David West: B+ Once again hit a big clutch shot down towards the end of the game. He is very efficient on the offensive end and he grabbed a few rebounds. He also threw a pass to the 5th row across the court for some reason as well, but for whatever reason he tends to throw one bad pass a game. The next time though he steps up and cuts off a guard on a drive to the basket will be his first time. If Roy isnít in the game we have no rim protection at all.

Danny Granger: F I donít care if he hit a three to open up overtime or not. I kept wondering for most of the game if he had overdosed on his sleeping pills again. Lifeless, careless, poor attitude and worst of all horrid body language. I have no idea what was up with him tonight but I can tell you this was the worst game Iíve seen him play in a long time. Ariza always has been a tough matchup for him because of his speed but Danny was just not himself tonight. Also Frank until proven otherwise is all that is wise, if he tells you that you are on the wrong spot on the floor then you are on the wrong spot on defense. You DONíT argue with him. Did you see Roy having to pat Danny on the head several times tonight to kind of say ďitíll be okĒ? Someone said he was sick, I donít know if that is true or not, but he played like a sick person for sure. Also stop shooting so many damned threeís, pathetic.

Roy Hibbert: A+ What I liked the most for Roy was that in the early stages of the game he missed a couple of little hook shots. Instead of just forcing up more he decided that he would have his own dunk contest where he just hammered home three in a row. But Royís rebounding and defense was key to tonightís game. His scoring was huge as well but again he was an interior presence and they just could not get rebounds away from him. He very much reminds me of the Marvel Character Gladiator. The more confidence he has the stronger he becomes.

Paul George: A Solid all around game. I will complain because he also took too many three point attempts but he made up for it with several drives to the lane and solid passing. This was a great overall game from him and of course his denizen of fans got to see his windmill dunk. What they may have missed though unless they were there was his statue of liberty dunk from the side in the layup lines in the pre-game. Was that a preview?

Darren Collison: A- I donít feel like he deserves an A- but itís just hard to not give it to him considering his stat line tonight, he even had a good field goal %. Now had he missed that second free throw at the end of the game his grade would be vastly different. But he didnít. He was just torched though by Jack and Vasquez on the defensive end.

Tyler Hansbrough: D What most of you feared about Tylerís shot prior to him playing in an NBA game came true tonight. If he wasnít getting foulís called, which he wasnít, then his shot is just an ugly unorthodox hook that has very little chance of going in. He did deny position to Kaman a few times but other than that his time on the floor was spent asking why he wasnít getting the calls and looking totally perplexed.

A.J. Price: B+ Did a little better job on Jack than Daren did but this wasnít his best defensive outing either. He did hit his shots tonight, which is a bonus, but I think he kind of stepped back a little from running the offense like h had been doing and reverted to looking for his own shot a little. Also he denied Dahntay Jones his rightful technical free throw attempt, but I guess nobody really cares about that. It will be interesting to see what happens when George does return.

Lance Stephenson: C He didnít do anything stupid (on the court) and he did have a really nice pull up jumper. C might be a little low but he didnít play much really and didnít impact the game all of that much.

Dahntay Jones: C- Not his finest game, which is a shame because last night I had a pretty decent write up on him for the very good game he had vs. the Bobcats. He still played hard on defense and he only took one shot which was a wide open three in the corner that he missed.

Jeff Foster: C I know its sacred that we all must praise Jeff Foster and I will give him credit for playing very good defense & boxing out for rebound off of free throws. But other than that, he didnít even attempt a shot and the two free throws he took he missed.


And now for absolutely no reason Dubcat.


http://whatthecool.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/dub-step-cat-1.jpg

This part is disturbing. I always get this sense that Collison and Granger have some animosity towards each other. Also, wasn't every saying that Granger was out with sickness or something at some point in the game? (I missed the beginning)

Asher99
02-22-2012, 05:45 AM
I didn't even realize we played New Orleans on Fat Tuesday until it hitting me looking up at the title even after reading it to click on the thread. Seems like they would want to play at home during Mardi Gras with more people in the area but maybe they don't think people would go or if they did would be wasted.

ilive4sports
02-22-2012, 05:50 AM
I feel like this team has gotten a bit too cocky. The Danny and Lance things are just examples. At the start of the season, they were all working hard, playing tough defense and winning games. But that losing stream, it seemed like lazy play, like they expected to win by going through the motions because they realize they are a good team. What was making them so good is the effort they were putting in.

I did not see tonights game, this is just what I've noticed since the losing streak.

From watching the highlights, I will say this, DC looked to be setting up the offense quite well and was finding the open man. His stat line is rather impressive as well. Defensively, seems like he struggled, but it looks that way for the rest of the team as well.

Great to see a monster game from Roy. Two games in a row, he has been scarily efficient. In the past two, he has scored 48 points in 25 shots. That is bonkers. Glad to see him getting it going after a little slump.

able
02-22-2012, 06:35 AM
I checked back the "confrontation" as far as possible (LP had NO feed) but DG was already arguing with DC before the timeout, about DC missing defensive assignments, at least that is what i assume, because he was pointing around while arguing with DC, I think Vogel told him he is the coach or something, didn't see a major happening though.

LoneGranger33
02-22-2012, 08:34 AM
Agree with the assessment of Danny Granger. Horrible game. Several times this season he has seemed to think he can just coast until winning time when that clearly isn't the case.

I just hope he doesn't react negatively to Paul George getting an opportunity for the game-winner. If I were Frank, I wouldn't have given PG that shot, but there's definitely no reason Danny should pout.

Pacer Fan
02-22-2012, 08:36 AM
I can't believe that words was spent by players and coaches during a game. How unprofessional is that. There is a time and place for this nonsense.
/green

idioteque
02-22-2012, 08:48 AM
It seems I am more enthused about this win than most of you. For most of the game, the Hornets were just making everything they threw at the rim despite what was a mostly collectively good defensive effort from the Pacers (except for the first half of the first quarter, which was pathetic). In the NBA, everyone from Washington to Miami will have those kinds of nights where they can't miss a couple times a season, and usually that results in a double digit win for said team. Well, not tonight. The Pacers kept fighting and kept it close until New Orleans finally broke down and became, well, New Orleans again once overtime came and they turned back into the pumpkin they are. I for one was very impressed that we were able to hang tough even though it must have been discouraging that New Orleans was making every shot.

I was super impressed with Roy's performance in the first half. I would love to see a couple of dominant dunks like that from him every game, it is great to watch. Now, Roy will never be Shaq, but the way he just reached over the other team's players or got in the right position and dunked it in HARD was very Shaq-like.

Major Cold
02-22-2012, 08:58 AM
DC had a fantastic defensive second half. The 7:56 mark was a shot clock violation. But DC actually forced two uncalled turnovers that possession. A carry and travel by Jack.

billbradley
02-22-2012, 09:00 AM
There was a confrontation between Danny Granger & Frank Vogel on the 20 second time out in the first quarter (you know the time he had to use a second time out to wake us up). Frank, you could see, was mad when he called the time out and he yelled at Danny as soon as he walked up to the bench. Danny yelled right back at him to which Darren Collison yelled at Danny. This didnít last for very long, a few seconds at best, but needless to say it was not fun to watch. You could see Roy being physically uncomfortable at that point.


In the fourth Danny fell down and was slow to get up and his man hit a three to tie the game. DC yelled at Danny "Come on!" and flexed. We called a timeout and DG was the only player sitting outside of the huddle. When Amdunson, Pendergraph(?) and PG came back to bench, nobody slapped DG's hand in the air for high five.

Granger then cheered with PG until they both went back in the game, so I could be reading into this, although I don't think it's a big deal.

Unclebuck
02-22-2012, 09:02 AM
I think Frank's comments after the game might shed a little light on the timeout confrontation

http://www.indystar.com/article/20120222/SPORTS04/202220323/Letdown-s-not-even-an-option-Pacers


"I've really talked emphatically what we need to do on the defensive end, and when our assignments are clear and they're getting broken, I want to do something about it," Vogel. "If it means calling a timeout or taking a guy out of the game, whatever I have to do."


From what I saw during that time Danny had missed at least two assignments in defending Hornbets pick and rolls and that was why Frank called both time outs and evidently in the second timeout Danny and Frank got a little heated. I'm not one to get too worried about a heat of the moment type thing like that. As long as play and coach are on the same page, I don't think it is a big deal. It is worth watching and seeing if it continues though.

I will say the player coach relationship between the team's best player and the coach is critically important, so if there is any slippage overall in the Danny - Frank relationship it will tear the team apart.

As far as the game, I just thought our offense lacked ball movment - way too much one-on-one from Danny, George, Darren. Our low assist totals for a game in which we scored 117 was really low. 18 assists on 44 made FG is not a good %.

Is 10,500 the lowest attendance ever at the fieldhouse. (that is tickets sold or distributed) who knows how many were there

Dr. Hibbert
02-22-2012, 09:26 AM
Question, guys, as I don't have replay, only saw it once and didn't think much of it until after the game: on the final play of regulation, where PG24 missed the shot to win it, did the Pacers draw up the play for George and not try to get it to Granger, or did the Hornets just deny Granger?

I only ask because the final shot should always be in the hands of Granger unless it's impossible to get him the ball. Say what you want about the man's other faults; he's undeniably clutch.

Since86
02-22-2012, 09:30 AM
Wow, Peck being Debbie Downer this morning. Personally, I was fairly impressed with last night's win. NO just kept hitting shots. After awhile they start hitting shots inspite of the defense, which was good. Jack hitting that leaner as the shot clock expired would be one example, and Bellanelli hitting a 3 from 40ft would be another. At some point you just gotta tip your hat and say good shot.

I thought the Pacers showed real determination and focus. Instead of hanging their collective heads, they just went right back to work.

BPump33
02-22-2012, 09:31 AM
Question, guys, as I don't have replay, only saw it once and didn't think much of it until after the game: on the final play of regulation, where PG24 missed the shot to win it, did the Pacers draw up the play for George and not try to get it to Granger, or did the Hornets just deny Granger?

I only ask because the final shot should always be in the hands of Granger unless it's impossible to get him the ball. Say what you want about the man's other faults; he's undeniably clutch.


I only saw it live, but I thought they drew it up for PG. I could be wrong. I'll say this, too. If that shot would have fallen, PG's confidence would have gone through the roof.

Unclebuck
02-22-2012, 09:33 AM
The final shot in regulation was drawn up for George. He got a good look, just missed it. I wanted either Danny or West to get that shot. Danny was hot oin the 4th quarter and West had just hit a nice shot a few minutes earlier. Didn't think there was enough time to get the ball into Roy

Mackey_Rose
02-22-2012, 09:37 AM
Is 10,500 the lowest attendance ever at the fieldhouse. (that is tickets sold or distributed) who knows how many were there

I don't think that's a record, but it was probably the most apathetic crowd I've ever been a part of.

BillS
02-22-2012, 09:38 AM
I felt like the biggest problem with our defense is when we try for the turnover rather than defending the basket. Too many times we leave a guy an open lane to the basket because we've dived past trying to smack the ball away - and how many of those guys standing wide open at the arc are left there because we can't recover from trying to double a ballhandler and force the turnover?

They come by this honest, to be sure, since there is a HUGE emphasis on disrupting the ball in our defensive scheme. However, there's a place for some moderation, especially when guys are good enough ballhandlers that they just shift the dribble and watch you sail merrily by.

That's not to say those are our ONLY defensive issues - the inability to get through screens is a pretty serious one. In the 4th I was just about to remark to UB that Collison was actually doing a pretty decent job with the screens for a change, then he went so wide around one that I think he was heading to Starbucks for a latte before coming back on his man.

MagicRat
02-22-2012, 09:39 AM
Is 10,500 the lowest attendance ever at the fieldhouse. (that is tickets sold or distributed) who knows how many were there

Don't know about previous years, but last year there were three games that didn't officially crack 10k. And the Atlanta game earlier this year was 10,334.....

BillS
02-22-2012, 09:41 AM
I thought the Pacers showed real determination and focus. Instead of hanging their collective heads, they just went right back to work.

For most of the game I thought they were taking their All-Star break early. I was happier when they came out hard in OT. If it hadn't been for that, we'd probably have a loss to be griping about. With it, though, I have hope that the alarm clock went off.

We'll see how they come out tonight. This one is tailor made for them to take for granted and completely mess up - worst team in the league playing at home and hot for a payback, second night of a back-to-back, last game before the break...

BPump33
02-22-2012, 09:42 AM
I felt like the biggest problem with our defense is when we try for the turnover rather than defending the basket. Too many times we leave a guy an open lane to the basket because we've dived past trying to smack the ball away - and how many of those guys standing wide open at the arc are left there because we can't recover from trying to double a ballhandler and force the turnover?

They come by this honest, to be sure, since there is a HUGE emphasis on disrupting the ball in our defensive scheme. However, there's a place for some moderation, especially when guys are good enough ballhandlers that they just shift the dribble and watch you sail merrily by.

That's not to say those are our ONLY defensive issues - the inability to get through screens is a pretty serious one. In the 4th I was just about to remark to UB that Collison was actually doing a pretty decent job with the screens for a change, then he went so wide around one that I think he was heading to Starbucks for a latte before coming back on his man.

Here is what worries me. Roy pops out on the guard and makes contact with his butt/hip almost every time. Jarrett Jack isn't going to necessarily get that call, but D. Rose will. I don't want our 7'2" center getting into foul trouble 25 feet from the basket come playoff time. Just a concern of mine.

Mackey_Rose
02-22-2012, 09:45 AM
Here is what worries me. Roy pops out on the guard and makes contact with his butt/hip almost every time. Jarrett Jack isn't going to necessarily get that call, but D. Rose will. I don't want our 7'2" center getting into foul trouble 25 feet from the basket come playoff time. Just a concern of mine.

He needs to hedge in order to give DC a chance to get through the screen. However, he wouldn't need to make so much contact if DC would put more of an effort into going over the top of the screen, rather than always going underneath and forcing Roy to commit so hard.

BPump33
02-22-2012, 09:50 AM
He needs to hedge in order to give the DC a chance to get through the screen. However, he wouldn't need to make so much contact if DC would put more of an effort into going over the top of the screen, rather than always going underneath and forcing Roy to commit so hard.

I kept waiting for JJ to start selling the contact more last night and he finally did late in the game for the foul call. I know I would have been flopping all over the place if I was him. There was contact on damn near every play.

RWB
02-22-2012, 09:56 AM
There was a confrontation between Danny Granger & Frank Vogel on the 20 second time out in the first quarter (you know the time he had to use a second time out to wake us up). Frank, you could see, was mad when he called the time out and he yelled at Danny as soon as he walked up to the bench. Danny yelled right back at him to which Darren Collison yelled at Danny. This didnít last for very long, a few seconds at best, but needless to say it was not fun to watch. You could see Roy being physically uncomfortable at that point.


Ah the exact time of Coach Vogel's "Come on guys, you are better than this" p!ssed off speech. Looked like he could chew through nails. Makes me wonder as we've heard several players want to run through walls for Frank, but what about Danny?

Trader Joe
02-22-2012, 10:26 AM
Granger was pretty terrible the first 42 minutes of the game. He did much better the last half of the 4th and OT.

I'm not worried about words being exchanged on the bench or the decision to give PG that shot at the end of regulation. I don't think there's any doubt that Danny would have had a tough time beating Ariza whereas Paul got a good shot off against Bellinelli (I think, either way he had the better matchup there). If we had lost the game I might be a bit concerned about the effect those two things could have on the team, but winning solves all and if George Hill is back tonight I think he'll give us a nice injection of positive attitude as well.

15th parallel
02-22-2012, 10:27 AM
Ah the exact time of Coach Vogel's "Come on guys, you are better than this" p!ssed off speech. Looked like he could chew through nails. Makes me wonder as we've heard several players want to run through walls for Frank, but what about Danny?

I think people are reading too much about the incident. The 1st half has been setting frustrations to players and coaches, so I just see it as a "heat-of-the-moment" type of thing. It's not like it is regularly happening so I'll start to worry when these types of incidents happen more frequently than usual.

As for the game, I thought it was a good win by the Pacers. The fact that they won despite some hot shooting from NO. And let's not forget that Kaman is still an above-average center when healthy (and he's been doing great the past few games), so let's not go crazy over the supposed "bad win" because it's a close game despite them having a depleted lineup.

Major Cold
02-22-2012, 10:43 AM
They won. They came back and showed up in the fourth. The Hornets have won 3 of their last 5. The only lost to the Thunder by 8, without Landry and Okakor. They beat the Knicks during Linnsanity, without Landry and Okakor. They beat the Bucks on the road, without Landry and Okakor. And beat the struggling Jazz at home, without Landry and Okakor.

We took over the game. Were we consistent? NO. But besides the Heat, Bulls, Spurs, and Thunder who is consistent this year?

Larry Staverman
02-22-2012, 10:52 AM
For a team that shoots 44% from the field and 32% from 3 point range N.O. was unusually hot last night but our soft defense early in the game helped them get in rhythm.

They had no answer for Hibbert or West and we abused them inside and should have kept shoving it inside more.

Also got a good look at Kaman who has been linked to the Pacers in trade rumors. What I saw was a very good offensive player, an average rebounder and a horrible defender who doesn't block out very well on the defensive board.

McKeyFan
02-22-2012, 11:04 AM
I will be worried when there is no confrontation or sparks between Vogel and Granger.

The last thing we need is the "franchise player" or other hothead (like Jax and Carlisle) steamrolling our young head coach. I'm glad Vogel has some fire and some guts.

That pandering really hurt Carlisle, in my opinion.

McKeyFan
02-22-2012, 11:07 AM
Danny would have had a tough time beating Ariza whereas Paul got a good shot off against Bellinelli (I think, either way he had the better matchup there).
Yep, the matchup was a factor.

Also, the shot was for the possible win, not the possible loss.

This was a smart, strategic move to give Paul more confidence in these situations. Come playoff time, it will help that Granger and West aren't the only two options in the last seconds.

He missed. The guys pulled it off in overtime. Well done and nicely thought through.

JBones19
02-22-2012, 11:11 AM
Not that it's a huge deal but Danny was visibly disappointed and was consoled by Roy on the second T when Vogel let DC shoot the FT after Danny missed the FT on the first T. DC also missed the FT and Danny looked at Frank and shook his head.

duke dynamite
02-22-2012, 11:16 AM
I think the cockyness and arrogance is just a by-product of having a young team. Danny is still fairly young, so I think with the combination of winning maybe some of the players have a false sense of entitlement.

Just a thought.

Then again this is one of the reasons why we have David West. He'll knock them down a peg or two if he has to. He or Foster both. Their veteran presence IMO is worth it's weight in gold. Dahntay, maybe. If he didn't try so hard to be a cheerleader on the bench all the time he could easily step into that role.

We'll see how we fare after tonight. I imagine the youth culture of this team and it's coaching staff will be a little more tame moving forward.


As for the toughness to this game by the Hornets. Even bad teams get hot. Another poster mentioned their 3 wins out of the past 5 games. Shoot, we sucked and had a 5-game winning streak two seasons ago. Teams randomly get hot, some get really cold. It happens in sports. I'm not too worried how we came out of the gate last night.

Anthem
02-22-2012, 11:19 AM
Danny was very clearly off for almost the whole night. Just brutal.

I don't have info, but the Hornets announcers (who were very good, by the way) were repeatedly saying that Danny was ill on the bench. They showed a video shot of him in the first period, sitting on the bench with his head in his hands like he had a migraine or was nauseous or something.

Apparently none of this got reported on the Pacers feed... I asked in the game thread and nobody'd heard anything. This is where you miss your intrepid sideline reporter.

Would love to know what the deal was last night.

FlavaDave
02-22-2012, 11:30 AM
There was a moment (don't remember which quarter) that the Hornets scored a fairly easy bucket. Roy grabbed the ball out of the net. Instead of going under the basket to inbound it, Roy whipped it full speed into Danny's chest. When Danny caught it, Roy pointed right at him and said something very forcefully. Not sure what was said, but Roy was really mad.

I've noticed an incident nearly every game where Danny's man gets a layup and Roy rolls his eyes or throws his hands up in frustration.

Not sure what to make of all that; just wanted to contribute that to the topic since it has been brought up.

vnzla81
02-22-2012, 11:35 AM
Wow Peck I'm proud of you, I never thought in my wildest dream that you would ever give Danny and F, good job.

Yes I agree that he sucked last night I was listening to the radio and slick keep saying "come on Danny that's your man and you are just standing there or leaving him open".

Regarding the game, yeah a win is a win but I don't think we win the game if they had either Okafor or Landry, we are not supposed to struggle againts a team that's that bad and has a bunch of young piece, once again the Pacers are proving to me that they are not as good as we thought.

Trader Joe
02-22-2012, 11:54 AM
Danny baffles me defensively because he is a superb on ball defender, where he repeatedly gets beat is when he is trying to "float" defensively and he leaves himself open to back door cuts and lets easy jump shots slip by.

FlavaDave
02-22-2012, 12:06 PM
Danny baffles me defensively because he is a superb on ball defender, where he repeatedly gets beat is when he is trying to "float" defensively and he leaves himself open to back door cuts and lets easy jump shots slip by.

Yes, exactly. He spends the majority of his game with his eyes off his man. This (I believe) is a) to improve his help defense, and b) snipe the passing lanes for steals. Great defenders can do this when they have a great instinct for where their man is and what he is doing without looking at them. Danny has shown a poor understanding of where his man when he is looking away.

This is why I don't consider Danny a poor defender. He is actually quite good at help defense and stealing/bothering passes. He is also very good at man-to-man defense when he is square on his guy. He struggles in the transition between the two styles.

Is it worth continuing to develop Danny as an all-around defensive force? Or is it too obvious that this is outside of his abilities, and he should exclusively stick to man-to-man defending?

joeyd
02-22-2012, 12:32 PM
He needs to hedge in order to give DC a chance to get through the screen. However, he wouldn't need to make so much contact if DC would put more of an effort into going over the top of the screen, rather than always going underneath and forcing Roy to commit so hard.

IMO, one of Roy's biggest areas of improvement has been how he has defended and at the same time avoided the ticky-tack fouls that caused him to come out (and changed the dynamics) of so many games last year. If he worked through that, he will work through he coverage further out, I'm sure.

Now, as for some comments in the rest of this thread, we really should give some props to the Hornets. They shot well, especially in the 1st and 2nd quarters, and not all of their buckets were attributed to bad defense.

vnzla81
02-22-2012, 12:38 PM
There was a moment (don't remember which quarter) that the Hornets scored a fairly easy bucket. Roy grabbed the ball out of the net. Instead of going under the basket to inbound it, Roy whipped it full speed into Danny's chest. When Danny caught it, Roy pointed right at him and said something very forcefully. Not sure what was said, but Roy was really mad.

I've noticed an incident nearly every game where Danny's man gets a layup and Roy rolls his eyes or throws his hands up in frustration.

Not sure what to make of all that; just wanted to contribute that to the topic since it has been brought up.

Yeah Quin was laughing at Roy for not going out of bounce and throwing the ball at Danny.

idioteque
02-22-2012, 01:04 PM
Wow Peck I'm proud of you, I never thought in my wildest dream that you would ever give Danny and F, good job.

Yes I agree that he sucked last night I was listening to the radio and slick keep saying "come on Danny that's your man and you are just standing there or leaving him open".

Regarding the game, yeah a win is a win but I don't think we win the game if they had either Okafor or Landry, we are not supposed to struggle againts a team that's that bad and has a bunch of young piece, once again the Pacers are proving to me that they are not as good as we thought.

As hot as Kaman was last night, I would have rather had Okafor or Landry playing the lion's share of his minutes.

Pacer Fan
02-22-2012, 01:27 PM
I have watched a lot of the Clippers over the years and Kaman was a disappointment last night (i'm glad he was passive or Pacers wouldn't have won). Kaman shot his Jumper just fine, but he was plan lazy, passive out there. He had 2 rebounds and 5 turnovers. He did play against Hibbert and the Pacers D, but he is so much better then what he showed last night. He was just going with the flow. Guess he doesn't have much to play for in NOH.

MrHale
02-22-2012, 01:29 PM
Question, guys, as I don't have replay, only saw it once and didn't think much of it until after the game: on the final play of regulation, where PG24 missed the shot to win it, did the Pacers draw up the play for George and not try to get it to Granger, or did the Hornets just deny Granger?

I only ask because the final shot should always be in the hands of Granger unless it's impossible to get him the ball. Say what you want about the man's other faults; he's undeniably clutch.

I think it depends, if granger is open id want no one else but him takin the shot but if i want someone who can create for the gamewinner i want george to shoot it. Ive seen granger take some ugly lookin gamewinning attempts, i dont think hes as clutch as u think he is

Pacer Fan
02-22-2012, 01:37 PM
I think it was a perfect time for PG to take the shot. It let's teams know that we have another trigger and may keep teams from doubling up on Danny. It was a great opportunity for Paul and for the coaches. Paul got a ton of separation, had a perfect look and appeared to fall about 1" short hitting the front of the rim. He does that again and he would have hit the shot. It is a growing point for Paul.

Great call Coach!

Nuntius
02-22-2012, 02:53 PM
Regarding the game, yeah a win is a win but I don't think we win the game if they had either Okafor or Landry, we are not supposed to struggle againts a team that's that bad and has a bunch of young piece, once again the Pacers are proving to me that they are not as good as we thought.

Sorry but I have to call :bs: on that.

The Hornets are 3-2 without Okafor and 3-5 without Landry.

They are 4-20 with both Okafor and Landry and 4-23 with Okafor but without Landry.

And that's because Kaman and Ayon have stepped up. Belinelli being in a good form has also helped them a lot as I heard them saying on their feed.

CJ Jones
02-22-2012, 03:25 PM
George wasnt good all game, he needed 20 shots for 20 points, his D wasnt amazing. If you hate collison which had 8-11 8reb 6ast game tonight, atleast stop worshipping George which is at best average nba player.

Take off your pink glasses people.

<a href="http://www.gifbin.com/983233"><img src="http://gifs.gifbin.com/082009/1249287503_ice_cube.gif" alt="funny gifs" /></a>... j/k i get your point. :D


[QUOTE=Dr. Hibbert;1380031]Question, guys, as I don't have replay, only saw it once and didn't think much of it until after the game: on the final play of regulation, where PG24 missed the shot to win it, did the Pacers draw up the play for George and not try to get it to Granger, or did the Hornets just deny Granger?

I only ask because the final shot should always be in the hands of Granger unless it's impossible to get him the ball. Say what you want about the man's other faults; he's undeniably clutch.


I disagree here. In that situation I'm sure whoever Belineli was guarding was going to get the last shot. I'm glad coach had the guts to make the call because it was the right one.

Paul should be the guy taking the last shot every night in iso situations IMO anyway. Danny's proven time and time again isos are a weakness of his. He's just as likely to dribble the ball of his foot out of bounds as he is getting off a good shot. I know he's won a couple games for us, but I'm not confident in his ball handling during critical situations. Now if we run him off screens ala Reggie then Danny's a good option but please, no isos.

Danny better get used to standing in a corner and playing off others because the better Paul gets, the more touches he's going to need. Danny's not going to have as many plays called for him as he's used to so he better suck it up and focus on other aspects of his game like he said he would. His effort and attitude last night was a terrible example for our young players.

I was actually happy when Kaman popped him in the chin. He deserved a little pain for the way he was acting on the court last night.


He needs to hedge in order to give DC a chance to get through the screen. However, he wouldn't need to make so much contact if DC would put more of an effort into going over the top of the screen, rather than always going underneath and forcing Roy to commit so hard.

Wouldn't this leave him in even worse position to get back to the point guard? Once Roy leaves, DC would be behind the pg leaving a wide open lane to drive thru.

He's being coached to go under them for some reason. They'd have to switch there whole defensive rotations if they decided to go over the screens.

I think the scheme is a good one, it's just the players running it are bad it.

MTM
02-22-2012, 03:33 PM
I think it was a perfect time for PG to take the shot. It let's teams know that we have another trigger and may keep teams from doubling up on Danny. It was a great opportunity for Paul and for the coaches. Paul got a ton of separation, had a perfect look and appeared to fall about 1" short hitting the front of the rim. He does that again and he would have hit the shot. It is a growing point for Paul.

Great call Coach!

Watching it online with the NO announcers, it was interesting to hear them totally bash Vogel for choosing to "let a 21 year old" take the last shot instead of big shot West. Remember - these announcers had watched West (and Collinson, for that matter) play so well for NO for so many years, that they were biased.

I thought it was a good opportunity in a tie game (rather than a game where they are behind) to find another 'go to' play or player. I prefer getting something actively going to the rim and/or involving more than one player in the play rather than an isolation fadeaway jumper, but the shot he got was a pretty darn good shot. He just missed it.

BPump33
02-22-2012, 03:39 PM
Watching it online with the NO announcers, it was interesting to hear them totally bash Vogel for choosing to "let a 21 year old" take the last shot instead of big shot West. Remember - these announcers had watched West (and Collinson, for that matter) play so well for NO for so many years, that they were biased.

I thought it was a good opportunity in a tie game (rather than a game where they are behind) to find another 'go to' play or player. I prefer getting something actively going to the rim and/or involving more than one player in the play rather than an isolation fadeaway jumper, but the shot he got was a pretty darn good shot. He just missed it.

I thought we would go to West, too. I'm still perfectly fine with what we did, though. To be fair, I would have been okay with anyone on the floor taking the shot. DC was playing well, Danny is pretty clutch, Roy was playing great and DWest has proven to be clutch/had just knocked down a jumper.

BRushWithDeath
02-22-2012, 03:52 PM
Wouldn't this leave him in even worse position to get back to the point guard? Once Roy leaves, DC would be behind the pg leaving a wide open lane to drive thru.

He's being coached to go under them for some reason. They'd have to switch there whole defensive rotations if they decided to go over the screens.

I think the scheme is a good one, it's just the players running it are bad it.

Collison has to make more of an attempt to "beat the screen".

Being content to go under every screen is easier on Collison but it makes it tougher on everyone else. He's got to try to get over the top quickly so that it doesn't force the guy guarding the screener to hedge so aggressively.

If Collison gets over the top decently, a simple "show" from the big is all that is needed to slow the ball handler enough for Collison the time to get back.

But since he takes the easier path around the screen, he makes it easy on both the screener and ball handler.

Our big is forced to "hard hedge" and frankly, Roy, West, and Hansbrough are not good at it. So while the scheme may be a good one, it is only a good one if you have the personnel to run it. We do not.

Roy and West are both way, way too slow to react. The ball handler can easily get the edge and drive through their hips. Hansbrough generally doesn't do as he's supposed to and simply backs off leaving the ball handler a wide open shot.

If the defending guard fights over the top of the screen it allows the big to stay further back while still defending the ball handler. This puts you slightly more susceptible to pick and pops but proper defensive rotation negates this further.

Of course, this opens up a whole new can of worms because both our power forwards, Hansbrough in particular, are basically non-existent in rotation.

However, if forced to choose, I'd rather take a pick and pop versus having the PG get an open look at the top of the key, the PG driving into the hips of the bigs and getting them in foul trouble, or having Collison switched off on the roller.

There is no perfect scheme for defending the ball screen. This is why it is the absolute staple of every single pro offense. But the key is using the scheme which best matches your personnel. With the speed of our bigs, it would seem to me that the best method would be to have the guard try to get over the top of most screens. What I know is a bad idea, is having the guard go under every single screen. Unfortunately, this seems to be Collison's method.

Hicks
02-22-2012, 03:54 PM
I was totally fine with giving George that last shot. Hell, Paul showed us last year he could create and hit his own buzzer beaters. Granted, they were 3rd quarter not 4th, but he hit at least two or three of them, and they were from three point range. I think one was a home game vs MIN, and the most impressive one was @MIL where he made a sweet behind-the-back move to create space before flicking his wrist to drain a 3. Good stuff.

The Sleeze
02-22-2012, 03:57 PM
I think we are all okay with PG taking the final shot because the Pacers still won the game. If we had lost in overtime I think this board would of had its fair share of people upset that Granger or West didn't take the last shot.

Anthem
02-22-2012, 04:03 PM
This is why I don't consider Danny a poor defender. He is actually quite good at help defense and stealing/bothering passes. He is also very good at man-to-man defense when he is square on his guy. He struggles in the transition between the two styles.
This is fair. But last night I don't think had anything to do with switching styles, Danny was just bad last night.

McKeyFan
02-22-2012, 04:14 PM
Shoot, we sucked and had a 5-game winning streak two seasons ago. Teams randomly get hot
It wasn't random. Murphy was injured.

McKeyFan
02-22-2012, 04:19 PM
Watching it online with the NO announcers, it was interesting to hear them totally bash Vogel for choosing to "let a 21 year old" take the last shot instead of big shot West. Remember - these announcers had watched West (and Collinson, for that matter) play so well for NO for so many years, that they were biased.

I thought it was a good opportunity in a tie game (rather than a game where they are behind) to find another 'go to' play or player. I prefer getting something actively going to the rim and/or involving more than one player in the play rather than an isolation fadeaway jumper, but the shot he got was a pretty darn good shot. He just missed it.
Pretty sure about West and possibly Granger (not totally sure), but it looked liked they were laughing amiably at PG after he missed the shot. I got the feeling they were glad he got his opportunity, but enjoyed watching him take his medicine and the idea of razzing him a bit later on.

Day-V
02-22-2012, 04:25 PM
I think one was a home game vs MIN, and the most impressive one was @MIL where he made a sweet behind-the-back move to create space before flicking his wrist to drain a 3. Good stuff.

What's more impressive is that it was on back-to-back nights.

BPump, El Pacero, myself, and others were actually in Milwaukee when he made that shot. The whole place went silent as that thing splashed in. It was awesome.