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ChicagoJ
11-12-2004, 12:47 PM
PD's basketball board is just about as polarized right now as the Politics board was two weeks ago.

There's a camp that says the Pacers can't win a title without Artest. And when I watch him play when he's focused, I can understand why people believe that. I think its a one-dimensional/ superficial view of a complex task - its not like the Pacers have shown us a championship blueprint since the Slick/George/Mel/Rahjah days, but I really do understand why people make that argument.

Then there's a camp that says the Pacers can't win a title with him. Even if he doesn't have another 'meltdown' at a critical time, which would be a surprise to many, his coaches and teammates probably expect him to do so, and that weighs heavily on the team. Wouldn't we all prefer Rick was spending all his time designing a championship gameplan than dealing with disruptions?

I guess what we either all agree that the Pacers just aren't going to win a championship anytime soon, whether they keep Ron or trade him?

Or we all agree they'll definitely win one this season, either way?

I just can't figure out which camp gets the blue states, and which camp gets the red states.

Kegboy
11-12-2004, 12:51 PM
:confused:

As I said earlier, I actually voted for trading Ron, before I voted against it.
---
Asked afterward if O'Neal's absence contributed to Charlotte's win, Knight bristled.

"What about Primoz? They didn't have Shaq, but we didn't have Primoz," he said.

indygeezer
11-12-2004, 01:04 PM
:confused:

As I said earlier, I actually voted for trading Ron, before I voted against it.
---
Asked afterward if O'Neal's absence contributed to Charlotte's win, Knight bristled.

"What about Primoz? They didn't have Shaq, but we didn't have Primoz," he said.



CLASSIC!!!! :laugh:

Unclebuck
11-12-2004, 01:32 PM
KB, that was funny.


Jay you asked so many question back and forth that I lost track. The only thing I know is the Pacers aren't very good without Artest. And for sure they are better with Artest. If the Pacers were to trade Artest for Peja, I would take the Pacers off the championship contender list

Gyron
11-12-2004, 01:44 PM
I would have to agree with UB. There's no way they are going to get anyone even close to his value as a player.

I'd say with him we are a contender, without, we might get lucky and make it to the second round.

Arcadian
11-12-2004, 01:52 PM
The more I think about the more I hope we win the Championship and Ron retires. Ron's high maintance wears me out as a fan.

TheSauceMaster
11-12-2004, 01:57 PM
The more I think about the more I hope we win the Championship and Ron retires. Ron's high maintance wears me out as a fan.

That's cause you worry to much , maybe I just numb as I have been a Pacers fan for way longer than I care to admit , I have been through the grinder so many times I just learn to blow it off.

To be honest this Bender situation get's me more upset than what Ron did ;)

Slick Pinkham
11-12-2004, 01:58 PM
The only thing I know is the Pacers aren't very good without Artest. And for sure they are better with Artest. If the Pacers were to trade Artest for Peja, I would take the Pacers off the championship contender list


I agree with that 100%.

But...

I also think that if he continues to be a distraction, Rick and Larry won't put up with it. He will then miss lots of games due to suspensions/pouting/fake injuries etc.

So the choice is not simply to play ball with Ron or to play with another player.

The choice might be this:

A) to play without Ron 30% of the time and with him 70% of the time, have incredible distractions and I'm guessing a fragmented locker room 100% of the time, and have someone on the roster assuming all of his minutes when he chooses to freak out

B)to play without Ron because you've traded him for a more talented SF than is currently on the roster, and get 100% effort 100% of the time and potentially a better locker room atmosphere.

I've seen how bad behavior can ruin a working environment for everyone. Trading an incredibly talented jerk for a hard-working slightly less talented person can in fact be a major upgrade for the team, because everyone performs better when the jerk is gone.

TheSauceMaster
11-12-2004, 02:14 PM
If people would learn to grow up , the Jerk wouldn't bother them :p

Most people who work proably work with a jerk or a ******* , it's life you move on and do your job. Rick was clearly trying to avoid this with his comments and Artest made it worse by opening his mouth , If this Drama keeps on it won't matter if Ron is trade it will slowly eat at the team even if Ron is dealt off.

Unclebuck
11-12-2004, 02:33 PM
In one of the 100 Artest threads I answered the quetion as to what it would take for me to decide that Artest should be traded. I would only trade him if his teammates have concluded beyond reasonable doubt that Ron must go. (I don't care if the fans get tired of him)

ChicagoJ
11-12-2004, 02:42 PM
Jay you asked so many question back and forth that I lost track. The only thing I know is the Pacers aren't very good without Artest.
-snip-

I know it was only one game...

But what does that make Minnesota?

I certainly got the impression that the guys that played Tuesday night were all trying to prove to Rick, management, the world, Ron, and Ron's fans that we can, indeed, contend without him.

With Stephen Jackson here and Fred Jones developing far more than I thought possible, Ron might be a luxury, not a necessity for this team to be a contender.

stipo
11-12-2004, 02:43 PM
I've changed my avatar to match my views on Ronny. I'm just an old softee I guess, but I love what he brings. If he really gets to be a big problem and his team mates want him out of there, pull the trigger. But there isn't any way on Gods' green earth that you can get proper value from trading that Beast :mad: of a player( And I say that word in a good way.)

DisplacedKnick
11-12-2004, 03:03 PM
No way you get equal value back on a trade though maybe Chicago would want him back for Eddy Curry?

The Peja for Ron deal would work though I still think Indy's better with Ron - a Ron who gets his head out of his @ss. Plus Sacto's having enough locker room trouble that I don't think they'd touch him right now.

Maybe they just need to get him warm-ups with the cover pick of the new Allure album on it rather than the Pacers logo?

sweabs
11-12-2004, 03:08 PM
I agree with Stinky and UB.

Until we absolutely know that his teammates and coaching staff have had it with him, and can no longer play alongside him - it's time to part ways.

But it still seems like these guys want things to work out with Artest - because they know how valuable he is to this team.

There is no way in hell we get equal value in a trade for Ron...no way.

Bird, Carlisle, DW - they can deal with this. Because they know Artest is still young and he's only getting better.

Unclebuck
11-12-2004, 03:12 PM
Jay you asked so many question back and forth that I lost track. The only thing I know is the Pacers aren't very good without Artest.
-snip-

I know it was only one game...

But what does that make Minnesota?

I certainly got the impression that the guys that played Tuesday night were all trying to prove to Rick, management, the world, Ron, and Ron's fans that we can, indeed, contend without him.

With Stephen Jackson here and Fred Jones developing far more than I thought possible, Ron might be a luxury, not a necessity for this team to be a contender.



I don't doubt that the players were trying to show what they could do without Ron. But that does not mean that they can over the long haul. You don't lose a top 15 player in the whole NBA and not suffer.

ChicagoJ
11-12-2004, 03:48 PM
You don't lose a bottom-3 lockerroom cancer in the whole NBA and not improve.

:goodevil:

He's only a top-15 player when his head is on straight.

ChicagoJ
11-12-2004, 03:56 PM
This whole "equal value" thing is driving me nuts...

Probably because I do "fair market value" for a living...

Value is what a willing buyer and willing seller agree on, when both know all the relevant facts, and neither are under any compulsion.

If Bird and DW trade Ron, and the trade appears lopsided, its because a bunch of you are over-valuing Ron's on-court contributions relative to the rest of his garbage.

I think trading Ron for a first rounder probably *is* receiving equal value.

If the Pacers trade Ron and you don't like what they get in return: blame Ron for lowering his own trade value; not Bird and DW for 'settling' for something inferior.

stipo
11-12-2004, 04:18 PM
I move that we talk Steve Alford:angel: into coming back to the league to take Ronnies' place. He could lead the team prayers, get along with everbody in the locker room, and be in the game at the end to shoot free throws! And everbody on the team will be so happy to have a wonderful dependable team mate that they'll be the happiest .500 team in the N.B.A.! Addition by subtraction! I'm sure it will work!;)

Hicks
11-12-2004, 04:25 PM
I don't agree with Sauce about the idea that everyone else should grow up and deal with the jerk. Why should everyone else have to "grow up" when clearly the only one who actually needs to grow up, is in fact the problem itself: the jerk? Better to make his *** change than everyone else around him. Otherwise, he gets to be an *******, AND get away with it while screwing with everyone else at the same time.