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View Full Version : So they're running P&R's on us to get Roy out to 30 feet...



Hicks
02-16-2012, 01:00 AM
... what are the classic, X/O adjustments our staff can make to counter what teams are doing to us? They're putting Roy, and by extension the rest of the team, in a really tough spot when they send their center to set picks out around the 3 point line, and we all know that's something Hibbert will always struggle with.

So... what are the most typical adjustments teams make when this happens to their slower centers? This can't be the 1st or even 100th time this has been a problem for a basketball team, so I'm sure there are multiple methods of dealing with this, but right now I'm drawing a blank as to what they are.

Help?

Sookie
02-16-2012, 01:08 AM
well, I mean, just a suggestion..

If they're sending the Center out to the three point line, why not just let Roy stay in the paint and wait for it. Often times our post players just get in the way of the guard trying to defend the PnR anyway. And in most cases, it's not like the opposing team's Center is going to do anything at the 3 point line.

So if the PnR is coming, just have the PG try and go quickly around the screen, and have help defense from the wings waiting if DC/AJ/PG/Lance can't catch up to the opposing player. (And we'll have Roy waiting in the paint if the guard tries to go all the way in.)

(Also, our bigs have to do a better job of calling out the screen too...I saw DC and AJ get smashed by a pick that they didn't see..)

imawhat
02-16-2012, 01:23 AM
Slide early on the other side of the pick.

CableKC
02-16-2012, 01:25 AM
well, I mean, just a suggestion..

If they're sending the Center out to the three point line, why not just let Roy stay in the paint and wait for it. Often times our post players just get in the way of the guard trying to defend the PnR anyway. And in most cases, it's not like the opposing team's Center is going to do anything at the 3 point line.

So if the PnR is coming, just have the PG try and go quickly around the screen, and have help defense from the wings waiting if DC/AJ/PG/Lance can't catch up to the opposing player. (And we'll have Roy waiting in the paint if the guard tries to go all the way in.)

(Also, our bigs have to do a better job of calling out the screen too...I saw DC and AJ get smashed by a pick that they didn't see..)
I agree....I'd rather let a Center take a mid-range jumpshot near the top of the key then roll towards the basket. Not every Center has the range that Hibbert or Gasol has.

Hicks
02-16-2012, 01:30 AM
Slide early on the other side of the pick.

Meaning Roy should recover from showing faster? I'm not sure what you meant.

To the others saying Roy should just hang out closer to the basket, I agree that I don't usually mind the center getting a look out there, but... if our guard/wing goes over the pick, what stops that guy's man from just taking a comfortable 20 footer?

Ratking
02-16-2012, 01:32 AM
Echoing sookie, it's about staying in the paint or by the pick-setter instead of hedging the handler. Give bigs with short range some room, protect against penetration. it's also on West for not anticipating these situations and offering weak side help in the paint when the center goes to set the screen. He should be ready for the rolling big man.

CJ Jones
02-16-2012, 01:34 AM
well, I mean, just a suggestion..



A good PG would either shoot all day or have a full head of steam to attack hibbert and get him into foul trouble. It would also leave players like Bargnani wide open on the PNP.

I think the scheme is fine for the most part, but if the players aren't executing it falls on the coaches.

I'm at the point now where I think we should try some zone :yuck:

CableKC
02-16-2012, 01:49 AM
... what are the classic, X/O adjustments our staff can make to counter what teams are doing to us? They're putting Roy, and by extension the rest of the team, in a really tough spot when they send their center to set picks out around the 3 point line, and we all know that's something Hibbert will always struggle with.

So... what are the most typical adjustments teams make when this happens to their slower centers? This can't be the 1st or even 100th time this has been a problem for a basketball team, so I'm sure there are multiple methods of dealing with this, but right now I'm drawing a blank as to what they are.

Help?
This is not the first time that a Team has a slow Center that has to figure out how to defend against the PnR.

You'd figure that Vogel...a guy that practically earned his living watching countless hours of game video...would have figured out that Teams are doing this against us while figuring out a way to counter it.

AesopRockOn
02-16-2012, 01:56 AM
It would help if either of our starting bigs could guard the pick and roll well to begin with.

imawhat
02-16-2012, 02:08 AM
Meaning Roy should recover from showing faster? I'm not sure what you meant.

Roy can't recover as fast, but watch these first two plays.

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fGGwQELI6lo" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

And here:

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ST7RP-FFelg" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

Roy's reacting late and meandering out well past the three point line. And since he's not trapping, it's possible for the ballhandler (tonight Kyrie) to still drive or pass. He hasn't taken away anything. It's the worst thing he can do. It (meandering) happened a lot with JOB as the coach.

Granted we've had this strategy all season, but the meandering is new.

You have to know who you're playing against. Tonight it was Kyrie, who doesn't pass well with pressure, and Erden, who you want shooting from the perimeter.

Another thing we can do is have the perimeter defender (Collison) get between the pick before the big arrives, basically forcing the ballhandler in the opposite direction. You're inviting the ballhandler into the lane, which doesn't work as well with bigger guards like Irving that finish well in traffic, but it works against Norris Cole.

Hicks
02-16-2012, 02:32 AM
It would help if either of our starting bigs could guard the pick and roll well to begin with.

Well, yeah, but the whole point of this thread is that they don't, so I'm wondering how coaches have historically dealt with this roster limitation...

imawhat
02-16-2012, 02:34 AM
Keep the distance between the big and the basket as short as possible. Sookie's suggestion is fine.

beast23
02-16-2012, 07:54 AM
Keep the distance between the big and the basket as short as possible. Sookie's suggestion is fine.
I think that as a first step in making a change for the better, that Sookie's suggestion will work.

But, if I'm an opponent, and I see that the Pacers have made this adjustment, then I will react by having my big attempt to set the pick lower. My whole purpose will be in trying to get Hibbert to closely guard the pick... because basically, the higher the pick is, the more Hibbert is going to fail.

I do realize that the lower the pick is set, the more help Hibbert will get, so maybe we would be okay.

But, I'm just saying that Hibbert sagging off the pick is by no means the end of the issue.

Unclebuck
02-16-2012, 08:00 AM
if you just let Roy sag into the lane, you better hope the point guard isn't a good three point shooter or top of the key shooter because he'll get that shot all day long.

Honestly this exact reason is why I like athletic quick agile centers, to avoid this whole situation.

OakMoses
02-16-2012, 08:19 AM
Honestly this exact reason is why I like athletic quick agile centers, to avoid this whoe situation.

Now if you say you like stretch fours as well, we'll all know the truth...

I like imawhat's suggestion of forcing the ball-handler away from the pick. It might invite the guard to drive, but I'd rather have a guard driving with Roy in the lane than a center rolling with Roy at the 3 point line.

My proposal is the Jeff Foster time machine.

Unclebuck
02-16-2012, 08:51 AM
The difficult thing with focrcing the ballhander away from the pick is that if you do that at the top of the key/three point line area (in the middle of the floor) that opens up way too much room and then you have a point guard getting into the lane everytime as Roy is backing up to try and keep the point from getting a layup and it causes our other three defenders to adjust to that. Either the point guard will get an open free throw line jumper or it will open up the three point shooters in the corner.

Forcing the ball handler away from the pick works much better on a side of the floor P&R.

Besides Roy what also really hurts us is that Collison isn't good at guarding the P&R either, fighting through the screen is not his strength

able
02-16-2012, 09:16 AM
what also really hurts us is that Collison isn't good at guarding the P&R either, fighting through the screen is not his strength

That and the fact that our PF of duty is always late on the help side, so while Roy is rushing back (and no he is not super fast) he has to recover on his own man AND whoever came out of the roll.

if the P&R is on the top right facing, than the man covering bottom left should come over, a pass to the then open man on the left corner would need to be across all the defenders and not be a very high perentage pass.

Curious as hell what Thunderbird would have to say about this

BillS
02-16-2012, 09:29 AM
Two things about some of Roy's defense last night:

1) (Roy's fault) - in the first half, he really looked like he wasn't sure at all where to be when his man showed at the arc. A number of times he was wandering around the paint looking for someone to double. I was very concerned that a savvy offense just steps back above the FT line extended and starts getting free Defensive 3-second calls.

He did better in the second half, but it kind of left us open to item 2:

2) (Possibly not Roy's fault) - when Roy is left on the ball handler after the PnR, the original defender is usually unable to clear from the pick fast enough to get back and relieve Roy to get back to his own man. Getting through picks has been a huge problem for Collison the entire time he has been here - I'd swear it takes him an extra 2 seconds for whatever reason. Now, I think this is causing Roy to leave TOO early, but I think it isn't all his fault.

I think our problem is not necessarily Roy, it is having a PG who always has to take the long way around the pick in the first place.

QuickRelease
02-16-2012, 09:41 AM
Do you think they're still trying to get a sense of their priorities on the offensive end? Do we establish Roy early? Do we go to West early? Do we try to get Danny going? Should we get PG some shots. Do you think this may be a part of why they're starting games so slowly?

The Sleeze
02-16-2012, 09:47 AM
Do you think they're still trying to get a sense of their priorities on the offensive end? Do we establish Roy early? Do we go to West early? Do we try to get Danny going? Should we get PG some shots. Do you think this may be a part of why they're starting games so slowly?

Offensively I think our problem is Vogel's "Simple System". He said he taught the whole offense to West in under 10 minutes. If a player can learn the system that quickly than how difficult is it for the other team to scheme against it.

MTM
02-16-2012, 09:58 AM
Right now Roy is doing the aggressive "show" then trying to get back, but his balance and agility is too slow and it causes other guys to rotate on D, putting off the entire scheme. It gives the opposing point guard options to drive, kick, shoot the open long shot. The goal should be to take away as many options as possible and force contested shots.

Roy is what he is, so we have to figure out ways to adjust. Roy is quicker than Rik Smits was, and Rik improved in this area. But it also helped that we could bring in Antonio Davis to be that quick agile center that Uncle Buck referenced to provide a change of pace on defense. I suppose that's what Amundson is supposed to do for us, but it's not quite at the same level, is it?

I would like to see an occassional trap of the ballhandler instead of the "show" - just to be the aggressor from time to time. This would require the other defenders to be ready so they can plan to rotate. I would like to see us defend it differently sometimes too - sometimes follow through the high side, and other times sag the low side - make the point guard hit that shot a couple of times in a row.

The other option is to be aggressive in switches so Roy is following the point guard for another couple steps rather than just "showing". Again, this creates its own problem, but it would be an option.

graphic-er
02-16-2012, 10:04 AM
I think they need to watch some film on guys like Paul Gasol and how he defends the PnR. Gasol is not that mobile of a big.

Major Cold
02-16-2012, 11:48 AM
If the Roy sags then we have to trap with our wings, thus giving up 3pt shots to teams that are now hitting them.

The FG% across the league is up and when we were defensively stout that was not the case. Roy has to hedge a lot sooner and DC needs to face guard towards the screen.

The risk is the opposing Point crossing over and heading into a wide open lane. A lane that could be closed up by DWest/Hans. Pickline Defense is crucial and we need to employ its strategy more deliberately.

imawhat
02-16-2012, 11:55 AM
Roy needs to react earlier but I think its more simple than that. I watched a couple games from earlier in the season when we were defending it better, and the only difference now is that Roy's taking an extra step or two out.

immortality
02-16-2012, 12:15 PM
Roy needs to react earlier but I think its more simple than that. I watched a couple games from earlier in the season when we were defending it better, and the only difference now is that Roy's taking an extra step or two out.

Pretty much this, in recent games you can see him go 3 feet further from the three point line and then trying to reach in steal the ball. This gives too much time for the other guy to go back and rush into the paint. I don't know why this hasn't been changed. He needs to stay between the free throw and 3 point, he is long enough to help with the pick and get back to his man.

notque
02-16-2012, 12:31 PM
The "aggressive show" as we're calling it I've hated all season. It never seems to really impact the play at all anyway. If you're not getting value from it, while bother coming out that high?

All of our players do it, it's a Vogel scheme, and I think he needs to play it more straight up.

I'd rather us letting the other team shooting a ton of 3 pointers off the pick than getting to the rim all game.

gummy
02-16-2012, 12:42 PM
Two things about some of Roy's defense last night:

1) (Roy's fault) - in the first half, he really looked like he wasn't sure at all where to be when his man showed at the arc. A number of times he was wandering around the paint looking for someone to double. I was very concerned that a savvy offense just steps back above the FT line extended and starts getting free Defensive 3-second calls.

He did better in the second half, but it kind of left us open to item 2:

2) (Possibly not Roy's fault) - when Roy is left on the ball handler after the PnR, the original defender is usually unable to clear from the pick fast enough to get back and relieve Roy to get back to his own man. Getting through picks has been a huge problem for Collison the entire time he has been here - I'd swear it takes him an extra 2 seconds for whatever reason. Now, I think this is causing Roy to leave TOO early, but I think it isn't all his fault.

I think our problem is not necessarily Roy, it is having a PG who always has to take the long way around the pick in the first place.

These are good observations, though I think our problem is both that we don't have a point guard who can get around the pick in a timely manner and Roy is hesitant and slow with his moves. He also leans and reaches in toward the ball handler as if going for a steal far too often, which is fine if you're athletic enough to recover and get back. But Roy has always had some trouble with his balance, and much like it takes Collison extra time to get through the screen, it takes Roy extra time to recover his equilibrium and reverse his momentum. He sometimes seems to be hanging out there in space, facing away and leaning away from the basket a second or two after the ball handler is long gone. It won't solve every issue, but if I'm Vogel I tell him to stay vertical when he gets out there to defend the P&R. This is a game of seconds and I'd like to see if that would help him get back into position.

Edit: Just noticed that MTM raised this point. That's what I get for only reading as far as the first comment I feel like responding too. :)

Sookie
02-16-2012, 02:31 PM
Meaning Roy should recover from showing faster? I'm not sure what you meant.

To the others saying Roy should just hang out closer to the basket, I agree that I don't usually mind the center getting a look out there, but... if our guard/wing goes over the pick, what stops that guy's man from just taking a comfortable 20 footer?

Go over it quickly...I actually think if Roy wasn't in the way, DC would probably be able to recover pretty quickly, less bodies to move around.

Honestly, I'd rather have the halfway defended 20 footer than they layup. This isn't something we're going to adequately defend with Roy, so pick your poison.

I like the way that AJ/Lou/Foster defend the PnR, which is inevitably trapping the ball handler, but I don't think Hibbert and DC can do that.

jeffg-body
02-16-2012, 02:38 PM
I think we have a case of Roy trying to do a little too much and he needs to get back to playing his role on defense.

BillS
02-16-2012, 02:44 PM
Go over it quickly...I actually think if Roy wasn't in the way, DC would probably be able to recover pretty quickly, less bodies to move around.

Have you <i>watched</i> DC go around screens? I mean just simple high-arc screens not being set by the opposing center, where there's no one else "in the way"?

It's like he has to go all the way to Carmel before he comes back to his man.

Sookie
02-16-2012, 02:50 PM
Have you <i>watched</i> DC go around screens? I mean just simple high-arc screens not being set by the opposing center, where there's no one else "in the way"?

It's like he has to go all the way to Carmel before he comes back to his man.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Very true....but we could work on that, I think...

Major Cold
02-16-2012, 02:50 PM
You quickly see the problem not being Roy's alone when Paul is guarding the point. Paul can stick to his man, absorbing the rub of a screen and slithering back into position.

The moment DC is chucked by a screen any momentum he has is halted, and he loses his man. Then his foot speed gets him caught up, but is it always too late. His man gets to the elbow and beyond for open lanes by slashers and shooters.

Roy does need to hedge against shooting PGs, but DC has got to learn to lead with his shoulder when going over the screen.

NuffSaid
02-16-2012, 04:24 PM
well, I mean, just a suggestion..

If they're sending the Center out to the three point line, why not just let Roy stay in the paint and wait for it. Often times our post players just get in the way of the guard trying to defend the PnR anyway. And in most cases, it's not like the opposing team's Center is going to do anything at the 3 point line.

So if the PnR is coming, just have the PG try and go quickly around the screen, and have help defense from the wings waiting if DC/AJ/PG/Lance can't catch up to the opposing player. (And we'll have Roy waiting in the paint if the guard tries to go all the way in.)

(Also, our bigs have to do a better job of calling out the screen too...I saw DC and AJ get smashed by a pick that they didn't see..)
I agree with most of this except it starts with recognition. Our PG and Center are the backbone of our defense. Collison has to see the play unfold first and he has to talk. Hibbert has to also recognize what the defense is throwing at him. He can't step out to defend against a non-3 point threat. His job is to defend the paint. So, stay near it and defend it!

It would help if Collison went over the screen and not under it. It also helps if our Forwards would atleast try to bring some weakside help defensive once in a while. Both DWest and Hans tend to be slow at recognizing where the help should come from. (I find this disturbing where Hansborough is concerned as he is a 4-time All American. This is definitely something he should recognize instantly! But really so should DWest.)

Everything this team has fought for to date started going downhill once George Hill got injured. I've mentioned this in other Pacers forums; Hill reads and reacts to the defense much better than Collison. And neither AJ or Lance are ready to take on the role of "floor general". I applaud Collison's effort, but he's still young and hasn't quite figured things out defensively yet. And right now, that's a large part of the problem.

The other side is "Where do the Pacers find instant offense?" They've played into this "team scoring" mindset and it's not a bad philosophy to employ when you really don't have "raw, head-full-of-steam, I can't be stopped, All-Star talent" on your roster. But this team collectively is still good enough to wear down most teams as long as everyone's playing minimal minutes and are scoring 10-15 ppg (from players 1 thru 6). To that, DWest was correct. This Pacers roster is deep, but one thing none of them counted on was how injuries would begin to disrupt their game plan. Again, it started with GHill, then Foster, then Collison briefly and Hans and Hibbert and now Granger. And although only Hill and Foster are the only players who have sat out for any significant duration, injuries, fatigue and now a lack of confidence has begun to really set in. So, what's the solution?

Cease with the "team-score by proxy" scheme and put the ball in two or three player's hands and ride them until you can get all of your players back healthy. In short, somebody has got to take on the responsibility of being that Go-To guy. Somebody has got to make up his mind that he will be that player that refuses to be beaten. Somebody has got to be that player that says, "I will take this team on my shoulders and be it's version of Jeremy Lin". Otherwise, it's going to be extremely painful for this team between now and the All-Star break.

Heisenberg
02-16-2012, 06:13 PM
https://twitter.com/#!/TimDonahue8p9s (https://twitter.com/#%21/TimDonahue8p9s)

Coach Vogel said the <s>#</s>Pacers (https://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Pacers) worked today on clarifying and understanding assignments defensively. After watching film, he felt his team played hard last night, but missed a lot of assignments. Said Darren Collison was playing too passively defending PnR, but shared responsibility by saying his game plan was too passive. I asked about his bigs being too much in a hurry to recover when defending the PnR, Vogel said that was an example of poor execution. They need to stay with the ball, then recover. Vogel said they specifically discussed the rotation to cover the roll man, and they plan to attack the ballhandler more aggressively. Where O'Brien would vary PnR defense depending on team, Vogel says they stick to two basic approaches.

immortality
02-16-2012, 07:39 PM
Pacers doing the same thing right now, but Foster and Hans are faster when going to back.