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View Full Version : This team has quit...again



Shade
02-16-2012, 12:11 AM
This thread came a little earlier than I expected this year. :o

Sookie
02-16-2012, 12:15 AM
I think they'll get it back together. Vogel was able to get them together last season, he should be able to do it this season too.

I think though, he needs to take a different strategy with playing time.

Play the guys who are playing hard, no matter who they are. Don't play the starters on the egg timer rotations, because they aren't currently earning it. Don't pull for missed shots and turnovers, pull for lack of effort, poor defense and the like...

I think players need to be refocused, and playing time is the biggest thing Vogel could do to encourage that.

Peck
02-16-2012, 12:16 AM
This thread came a little earlier than I expected this year. :o

It's probably to early for this.

I understand the sentiment but I guess we should wait till both Danny & George are back to see if this is the case.

vnzla81
02-16-2012, 12:41 AM
I don't think they have quit, not been a very good team is what I think is the problem, we just have a team full of inconsistent players, from point guard to center.

Doddage
02-16-2012, 12:47 AM
It's probably to early for this.
/thread

Hicks
02-16-2012, 12:55 AM
Well, Shade went and put his foot in his mouth; now I feel even MORE confident we'll bounce back! ;)

jeffg-body
02-16-2012, 01:11 AM
We are what we are right now. We have a ton of youth and a few veterans. I had anticipated that we would go through a cold streak at some point and that it would not be pretty. With Danny not being able to go just magnified the problem because he was doing so well defensively as well as injecting scoring when needed. I think once we get GH and Danny back we will be ok, but if a trade were to come available I wouldn't be upset if Danny, DC and cap space equaled out to a young player at the 1 spot.

NapTonius Monk
02-16-2012, 01:17 AM
This is a different season, with little to no practice time, with new players at key positions. The hot start was nice. They are playing frustrating right now, but I hardly think they've mailed it in, and neither should we as fans. They'll find their median.

DGPR
02-16-2012, 09:32 AM
What was our longest losing streak with Vogel as head coach last season? 7 losses I think? We haven't lost the team yet, just look at Denver, they lost 5 in a row and snapped their losing streak by beating us and they did it shorthanded.

Groove1
02-16-2012, 10:00 AM
Meh, I think they may have gotten a lil cocky too quick, and the effort on D has deminished. Expecting to win, blah, blah, blah. Its concerning when we cant beat Cleveland. Lets see how the tired legs do tonight.

BillS
02-16-2012, 10:22 AM
I thought they came out in the second half with a bit of a renewed purpose and effort, it was just too late.

Had they not done so, I'd be panicking the same panic.

I want to see how they come out tonight before hauling out the pitchforks and lighting the torches.

RWB
02-16-2012, 10:49 AM
In case any of the players were visiting this thread. Thought it might be good to throw in a link on how to hit your free throws. Or better yet this team might want to use sometimes casual PD follower BillyK to line them out if they just listen.

http://www.ehow.com/how_3046_shoot-free-throw.html

The Sleeze
02-16-2012, 10:52 AM
I thought they came out in the second half with a bit of a renewed purpose and effort, it was just too late.

Had they not done so, I'd be panicking the same panic.

I want to see how they come out tonight before hauling out the pitchforks and lighting the torches.

I don't think we showed much effort until about 5 minutes left in the game. Pacers were down 18 at halftime, and down 16 with 5 minutes left in the game.

90'sNBARocked
02-16-2012, 11:09 AM
I feel that Shade is correct, unfortunatley.

Last night the Cavs announcers were talking about how this team on the floor (Pacers) looks absolutely nothing like the team that beat the Cavs at Bankers Life the last time thye played. They talked about how the team looked lifeless, looked unsure of themselves, and genrally like a weake team

The thing about those "physical teams" are if you push right back , you will find that the team is softer than you first thought

It's not that were losing games, its the WAY we are losing games. We came out against the HEAT and looked like some JV squad playing a national powerhouse. Roy is offically back in his mental midget headquarters , and the more he plays the more I question giving him the kind of money he will demand. He is inconsistent and still is not mentally strong still goes into funks. We have zero ball movement, a lazifare approach to defense, and a bunch of chuckers who cant dribble

These last 5 games have been a downward trend compared to early in the season. Last ngiht looked nothing like the team who won at Dallas, in fact I bet if we played Dallas right now , they would blow us out of the water.

I guess I just blew any chance at wining the "sunshine poster award" but the skies are gray baby and I dont see the light right now

90'sNBARocked
02-16-2012, 11:11 AM
I thought they came out in the second half with a bit of a renewed purpose and effort, it was just too late.

Had they not done so, I'd be panicking the same panic.

I want to see how they come out tonight before hauling out the pitchforks and lighting the torches.

See Bill , that why I nominated you for "sunshine poster award"

So it will take a 6th loss in a row for you to realize the ship is sinking faster than the Titanic?

After last night, man I am thouroughly convinced

Saras
02-16-2012, 11:22 AM
Pacers winning : Pacers are 1 player away from winning it all, Pacers an elite team, why fans dont attend pacers game, I LOVE this team.

Pacers lose : They quit, we have only 1 decent player, Pacers is in the bottom of the league, no wonder noone watches this heartless team, cant watch this terrible team atm, gonna start cheering for them when they start winning.

BillS
02-16-2012, 11:23 AM
I don't think we showed much effort until about 5 minutes left in the game. Pacers were down 18 at halftime, and down 16 with 5 minutes left in the game.

Uh, yeah. The offense didn't improve much, so we couldn't catch up.

WATCHING how they played defense, they were staying in position, focused on what to do, and actually got stops. They couldn't capitalize, which is why I say that the offense needs fixing not just the defense, but the effort was back to a certain extent.


See Bill , that why I nominated you for "sunshine poster award"

So it will take a 6th loss in a row for you to realize the ship is sinking faster than the Titanic?

After last night, man I am thouroughly convinced

5 game losing streak is no more an indication that the team is doomed than a famous previous 5 game winning streak was an indication we were going to win an NBA championship.

I'm not saying there are no problems. I'm saying that I want to see how they come out tonight effort-wise before I jump off the roof.

PGisthefuture
02-16-2012, 11:28 AM
If we get beat by double digits tonight then I think we can be for sure that this team needs something tweaked. When Danny and G-Hill get back I honestly think we will be back to our old selves. It's obvious though that we cannot beat the Heat even with all our guys fully healthy so therefore, unless we are going to be satisfied with a first round or second round finish this year in the playoffs then a roster move needs to be made. I don't know what that move is, but I feel like Larry has something up his sleeve. He cannot be happy at all about what is going on right now. If we would have played with the effort the whole game that we've been playing with late in games during this losing streak we could easily have won about 3 of the last 5. This team just needs motivation.

RWB
02-16-2012, 11:30 AM
Well this should make Shade feel better.... The Pacers are only 2.5 games out of 5th place. Of course the Pacers are only 2.5 games out of that 8th spot as well. ;)

vnzla81
02-16-2012, 11:43 AM
5 game losing streak is no more an indication that the team is doomed than a famous previous 5 game winning streak was an indication we were going to win an NBA championship.

I'm not saying there are no problems. I'm saying that I want to see how they come out tonight effort-wise before I jump off the roof.

I wouldn't be as worry if we lost 5 straight games by playing the right way, but we are not, it looks like the team is falling apart for some reason.

Let's also not forget that we were supposed to have some type of advantage againts some of the teams we lost too, Memphis didn't have Zbo, Atlanta didn't have Horford, Denver didn't have Gallinari and Nene(half game), Miami is understandable because they are just that good and with Cleveland we were kind of even because they were missing Varejao and we were missing Danny(not saying that Varejao is equal to Danny but Varejao has been playing great this year 12 and 11).


Yes I know that we are missing Hill and Foster but again I don't think we win either one of those games with them playing either.

Justin Tyme
02-16-2012, 11:55 AM
Well, Shade went and put his foot in his mouth; now I feel even MORE confident we'll bounce back! ;)

I thought we'd play differently after I changed my mood from tingly back to cynical, but Cleveland apparently didn't understand.

Naptown_Seth
02-16-2012, 12:00 PM
I want to see how they come out tonight before hauling out the pitchforks and lighting the torches.
Tonight is "I walk out on you" night for me. The EFFORT in the last 3 games at least has been poor, really into the "I don't want to be on the court" poor at times.

Running out of gas late tonight is different than fumbling the ball away 2 minutes into the Miami game, or during the Denver game. That's not the same as Lebron jumping a passing lane and creating the TO, or tipping away your dribble.

Based on the recent efforts most of the guys should be pretty well rested for tonight's game.

Justin Tyme
02-16-2012, 12:24 PM
What was our longest losing streak with Vogel as head coach last season? 7 losses I think? We haven't lost the team yet, just look at Denver, they lost 5 in a row and snapped their losing streak by beating us and they did it shorthanded.



Look at the Knicks, they have won 7 in a row with Amare, Chandler, and Lin with a supporting cast of no names. Fields had 15/10/5 last night. The Pacers have better overall talent, right now, and can't win if their life depended on it. This is with D'Ant as coach. I've never been a D'Ant coach fan.

Ginobli just came back and hasn't done much, but the Spurs have won 21 or so games with Parker, Duncan and a bunch of role players. It always helps when Pop is a great coach.

Frustrating very frustrating to have been 17-7 only to watch the wheels fall off the wagon. What I see of late is little team play, poor rebing, terrible "D", not enough passing, players who don't seem to know or understand what they are suppose to be doing. THINGS HAVE TO CHANGE NOW! You can't lose to losing teams the next 6 games. This funk can't continue. If it does, it's on you Bird. You are the one in charge, and you are the one that makes the decisions. Do whatever is necessary Bird! I don't see sitting and watching losses as a great strategy while doing nothing and hoping things change. You tried that for 3 1/2 years. Tell us agai how that work out? Your leadership is needed to righten the ship, so don't fail us!

Since86
02-16-2012, 12:29 PM
Loss of effort or loss of confidence? They're easily mistaken for each other.

I'm still not sure which it is, but I think (and hope) that it's more of a loss of confidence. Individually all we've ever heard is how hard these guys work, and we've seen proof to back it up. I have a hard time believing that collectively their will to work disappears.

Not having confidence in yourself, nor your teammates, creates a lot of similiar problems as lack of effort.

Major Cold
02-16-2012, 12:32 PM
I think they'll get it back together. Vogel was able to get them together last season, he should be able to do it this season too.

I think though, he needs to take a different strategy with playing time.

Play the guys who are playing hard, no matter who they are. Don't play the starters on the egg timer rotations, because they aren't currently earning it. Don't pull for missed shots and turnovers, pull for lack of effort, poor defense and the like...

I think players need to be refocused, and playing time is the biggest thing Vogel could do to encourage that.

I know you are referring to AJ and I agree. When he gets consistent minutes his play gets more consistent. He is not a microwave and needs rhythm to produce.

Lance's lack of hitting a jumper is slowing this team down. When Hill comes back I would like to see AJ get Lance like minutes for 3 weeks.

Hicks
02-16-2012, 12:37 PM
I'm starting to think this could be some long-term fatigue, not anything recent. The first half of this busy schedule, all of the traveling from a ton of road games, and to be competing hard against some really good teams (enough to beat them in their own floor, no less)... I just think that whole long stretch caught up with them, and as it was about to finally wind down I think they subconsciously finally let themselves exhale and feel how tired they really were. You can accrue fatigue over a long period of time from high effor and/or low sleep.

High long term fatigue could account for the low energy/poor body language, the extra missed shots, and the less than sharp minds that can slow down assignments/rotations. I think it could be the biggest factor here.

And again the Hill/Granger injuries do no favors, plus now that it's a losing streak players aren't trusting the system as much because they badly want to provide some kind of spark, but what happens is unless they get hot, going away from the team gameplan otherwise backfires.

All-star break can't get here fast enough IMO.

vnzla81
02-16-2012, 12:48 PM
Well they had two days off before the Miami game and they looked worse than fatigued, they didn't even try to play the game and yesterday was just as bad.

90'sNBARocked
02-16-2012, 12:55 PM
Loss of effort or loss of confidence? They're easily mistaken for each other.

I'm still not sure which it is, but I think (and hope) that it's more of a loss of confidence. Individually all we've ever heard is how hard these guys work, and we've seen proof to back it up. I have a hard time believing that collectively their will to work disappears.

Not having confidence in yourself, nor your teammates, creates a lot of similiar problems as lack of effort.

Safe to say one effects the other?

Peck
02-16-2012, 12:57 PM
I wouldn't be as worry if we lost 5 straight games by playing the right way, but we are not, it looks like the team is falling apart for some reason.
Let's also not forget that we were supposed to have some type of advantage againts some of the teams we lost too, Memphis didn't have Zbo, Atlanta didn't have Horford, Denver didn't have Gallinari and Nene(half game), Miami is understandable because they are just that good and with Cleveland we were kind of even because they were missing Varejao and we were missing Danny(not saying that Varejao is equal to Danny but Varejao has been playing great this year 12 and 11).


Yes I know that we are missing Hill and Foster but again I don't think we win either one of those games with them playing either.

If I were to allow myself to go down this path then this is why I would. He's right, it's not the losing it's the way they have lost. That they have not even been in 3 of the 5 losses at all including the last two in a row.

I'm not sure how I will feel if they come out and do the same tonight.

I'm willing to accept a loss (pathetic that is has now come to this) if we at least look like a team that is trying. Because if there is no Hill, no Granger then that is a mighty chunk of our team. I don't consider Foster a big loss because he is here for one thing and one thing only, playoff toughness (yes I realize you have to get to the playoffs first).

But if we come out and get blown out by 20+ points again, well I'm not sure if I will be able to be rational or not.

Peck
02-16-2012, 12:58 PM
Safe to say one effects the other?

Sure. It shouldn't, I mean nothing really should affect effort but being realistic it does.

Mackey_Rose
02-16-2012, 12:59 PM
Why is this so surprising to everybody? There is really no need to panic. They'll probably run off a stretch of 6 straight wins leading to the Chicago game, starting tonight. They have 4 games against the 2 worst teams in the league, and 2 home games against teams that have combined to win 19 games.

This team is who we all should have known they were, from the very beginning. They won more than their share of close games, and played a really weak schedule early. They've lost a couple close games, and got blown out by a far superior team. Last night was a stinker, but a .500 (or maybe slightly better) team will have those on occasion. It happens, and it will happen again this year.

Everyone overreacted to the good record early, and now are overreacting to a bad stretch now. This is who they've always been. I fully expect this 5 game losing streak to be followed up by a 6 game win streak, and then everybody will think we're back to being contenders, when in reality we've been the same all along.

90'sNBARocked
02-16-2012, 01:02 PM
I'm starting to think this could be some long-term fatigue, not anything recent. The first half of this busy schedule, all of the traveling from a ton of road games, and to be competing hard against some really good teams (enough to beat them in their own floor, no less)... I just think that whole long stretch caught up with them, and as it was about to finally wind down I think they subconsciously finally let themselves exhale and feel how tired they really were. You can accrue fatigue over a long period of time from high effor and/or low sleep.

High long term fatigue could account for the low energy/poor body language, the extra missed shots, and the less than sharp minds that can slow down assignments/rotations. I think it could be the biggest factor here.

And again the Hill/Granger injuries do no favors, plus now that it's a losing streak players aren't trusting the system as much because they badly want to provide some kind of spark, but what happens is unless they get hot, going away from the team gameplan otherwise backfires.

All-star break can't get here fast enough IMO.

Not to be too blunt here man, but that sounds nice but

Chicago has played more road games than us and is 7-2 without Rose

Something deeper than fatigue is going on here and I think the confidence of this team has been shattered

90'sNBARocked
02-16-2012, 01:06 PM
Why is this so surprising to everybody? There is really no need to panic. They'll probably run off a stretch of 6 straight wins leading to the Chicago game, starting tonight. They have 4 games against the 2 worst teams in the league, and 2 home games against teams that have combined to win 19 games.

This team is who we all should have known they were, from the very beginning. They won more than their share of close games, and played a really weak schedule early. They've lost a couple close games, and got blown out by a far superior team. Last night was a stinker, but a .500 (or maybe slightly better) team will have those on occasion. It happens, and it will happen again this year.

Everyone overreacted to the good record early, and now are overreacting to a bad stretch now. This is who they've always been. I fully expect this 5 game losing streak to be followed up by a 6 game win streak, and then everybody will think we're back to being contenders, when in reality we've been the same all along.

Because its a trend now. Not an abnormality. Its the way we have lost. Losing 5 games in a row to good teams where we putforth maximum effort would be one thing

LAst ngiht was probably the most disappointing loss of the season . Guys looked lost out there and disinterested. How many wide open 3's did the Cavs get and knock down?

BillS
02-16-2012, 01:13 PM
Not to be too blunt here man, but that sounds nice but

Chicago has played more road games than us and is 7-2 without Rose

Something deeper than fatigue is going on here and I think the confidence of this team has been shattered

:hmm:

So because we didn't do as well as Chicago we suck?

We're an upper-middle team, not an elite team. Our top players aren't historical superstars, so our bench needs to be better and isn't.

Let's rein in the panic here.

Since86
02-16-2012, 01:13 PM
Not to be too blunt here man, but that sounds nice but

Chicago has played more road games than us and is 7-2 without Rose

Something deeper than fatigue is going on here and I think the confidence of this team has been shattered

Are we really going to compare the Bulls roster minus Rose and the Pacers roster minus Hill?

Bulls still have better developed talent. Pacers might have more potential, but potential doesn't translate into results.

If we had a supporting cast as good as Deng/Boozer/Noah/Gibson/Rip then I'd agree with you. But the supporting cast here in Pacers land isn't anywhere near that consistent of a level.

It's not just one thing. It's just a big combination of tiredness, lack of confidence, lack of depth, lack of experience, etc.

Not trying to make excuses, just giving an explanation. These are all things that every team has to deal with in their own ways. The Pacers just aren't handling them very well right now. The better teams find a way to fight through it.

I fully expected a stretch of bad play. You're fooling yourself if you didn't think this season was going to have it's rough patches.

CableKC
02-16-2012, 01:14 PM
I'm starting to think this could be some long-term fatigue, not anything recent. The first half of this busy schedule, all of the traveling from a ton of road games, and to be competing hard against some really good teams (enough to beat them in their own floor, no less)... I just think that whole long stretch caught up with them, and as it was about to finally wind down I think they subconsciously finally let themselves exhale and feel how tired they really were. You can accrue fatigue over a long period of time from high effor and/or low sleep.

High long term fatigue could account for the low energy/poor body language, the extra missed shots, and the less than sharp minds that can slow down assignments/rotations. I think it could be the biggest factor here.

And again the Hill/Granger injuries do no favors, plus now that it's a losing streak players aren't trusting the system as much because they badly want to provide some kind of spark, but what happens is unless they get hot, going away from the team gameplan otherwise backfires.

All-star break can't get here fast enough IMO.
Totally agree here....the ASB will be a reprieve for this Team. If I were Vogel....I'd be calling for a mandatory practice for all the Players....heck, I'd even go as far as to banning all Players ( except for Hibbert and PG ) from going to Orlando and requiring some form of practice, bonding, sleepovers...whatever...to get the team Chemistry going again.

But this begs the question....if the Team couldn't hack the schedule before the ASB....how are they going to hack the schedule after the ASB? If fatigue is a concern based off of the # of games played so far.......then they better figure out what they need to do now.....cuz looking at the schedule and # of games...especially in the last 6 weeks of the regular season.....things don't get any easier.

Mackey_Rose
02-16-2012, 01:18 PM
Totally agree here....the ASB will be a reprieve for this Team. If I were Vogel....I'd be calling for a mandatory practice for all the Players....heck, I'd even go as far as to banning all Players ( except for Hibbert and PG ) from going to Orlando and requiring some form of practice, bonding, sleepovers...whatever...to get the team Chemistry going again.


Haha, there's no better way to get team chemistry back in order than to take away the only short vacation the players get all year.

Which, by the way, would be totally against the NBA's rules.

vnzla81
02-16-2012, 01:20 PM
Are we really going to compare the Bulls roster minus Rose and the Pacers roster minus Hill?

Bulls still have better developed talent. Pacers might have more potential, but potential doesn't translate into results.

If we had a supporting cast as good as Deng/Boozer/Noah/Gibson/Rip then I'd agree with you. But the supporting cast here in Pacers land isn't anywhere near that consistent of a level.

It's not just one thing. It's just a big combination of tiredness, lack of confidence, lack of depth, lack of experience, etc.

Well according to a lot of people here(including myself :blush:) we thought we were as good as the Bulls without Drose, we thought Roy= Noah, Danny= Deng, West=Boozer, DC> Watson and Tyler= Gibson.

I guess a lot of people were overrating our players then and even as a "hater" I was doing the same thing :blush:

CableKC
02-16-2012, 01:27 PM
Haha, there's no better way to get team chemistry back in order than to take away the only short vacation the players get all year.

Which, by the way, would be totally against the NBA's rules.
What's wrong with having a get together at Bird's estate for some food and BBQ over the course of a few days?

If, by accident, the Team somehow wanders into Bird's personal indoor basketball facility that is on his property, they are locked in and have long 8 hour practice drills over the course of a few days....then it happens. It's all on vacation time ;)

Heck, Vogel will even bring cookies....

<< do I really have to put this in green font? >>

crazylikeafox
02-16-2012, 01:30 PM
What young player at the 1 is available for those 2. I am thinking the team that has a young 1 equal to DC and DG is not going to be ready to part with him, Monta is not that person.



We are what we are right now. We have a ton of youth and a few veterans. I had anticipated that we would go through a cold streak at some point and that it would not be pretty. With Danny not being able to go just magnified the problem because he was doing so well defensively as well as injecting scoring when needed. I think once we get GH and Danny back we will be ok, but if a trade were to come available I wouldn't be upset if Danny, DC and cap space equaled out to a young player at the 1 spot.

crazylikeafox
02-16-2012, 01:33 PM
Can you let me in on what Bird is supposed to do to right the ship? What "things" have to change and how?



Look at the Knicks, they have won 7 in a row with Amare, Chandler, and Lin with a supporting cast of no names. Fields had 15/10/5 last night. The Pacers have better overall talent, right now, and can't win if their life depended on it. This is with D'Ant as coach. I've never been a D'Ant coach fan.

Ginobli just came back and hasn't done much, but the Spurs have won 21 or so games with Parker, Duncan and a bunch of role players. It always helps when Pop is a great coach.

Frustrating very frustrating to have been 17-7 only to watch the wheels fall off the wagon. What I see of late is little team play, poor rebing, terrible "D", not enough passing, players who don't seem to know or understand what they are suppose to be doing. THINGS HAVE TO CHANGE NOW! You can't lose to losing teams the next 6 games. This funk can't continue. If it does, it's on you Bird. You are the one in charge, and you are the one that makes the decisions. Do whatever is necessary Bird! I don't see sitting and watching losses as a great strategy while doing nothing and hoping things change. You tried that for 3 1/2 years. Tell us agai how that work out? Your leadership is needed to righten the ship, so don't fail us!

90'sNBARocked
02-16-2012, 01:46 PM
:hmm:

So because we didn't do as well as Chicago we suck?

We're an upper-middle team, not an elite team. Our top players aren't historical superstars, so our bench needs to be better and isn't.

Let's rein in the panic here.

Come on Bill AKA Mr Sunshine

I never said we suck. I said to use the "fatigue factor" as an excuse holds no weight with me. I made an example using the bulls to say, that without their best player who us head and shoulders better than our best player they went 7-2 and have had more road games than the Pacers

The reason Im worried is like VNZLA sai the way they are playing. If you watched last night they look like a completely different team than the one who beat the Mavericks

Its the body language, its the effort, its the confidence level im concerened about

Its not "OMG, they losta couple games in a row" that were close or we played well but lost at the end. This ahs been a downward spiral since the loss at Boston

90'sNBARocked
02-16-2012, 01:48 PM
Are we really going to compare the Bulls roster minus Rose and the Pacers roster minus Hill?

Bulls still have better developed talent. Pacers might have more potential, but potential doesn't translate into results.

If we had a supporting cast as good as Deng/Boozer/Noah/Gibson/Rip then I'd agree with you. But the supporting cast here in Pacers land isn't anywhere near that consistent of a level.

It's not just one thing. It's just a big combination of tiredness, lack of confidence, lack of depth, lack of experience, etc.

Not trying to make excuses, just giving an explanation. These are all things that every team has to deal with in their own ways. The Pacers just aren't handling them very well right now. The better teams find a way to fight through it.

I fully expected a stretch of bad play. You're fooling yourself if you didn't think this season was going to have it's rough patches.

Agian Bulls are just one compairson

My point is only the WAY they are playing is very troubling

crazylikeafox
02-16-2012, 01:49 PM
Maybe the coaching ghost of JOB has shown up.

Eleazar
02-16-2012, 01:57 PM
This isn't fatigue.

Since86
02-16-2012, 02:00 PM
Agian Bulls are just one compairson

My point is only the WAY they are playing is very troubling

If you're comparing them to the Bulls then sure. But if you're comparing them to other young up and coming teams, they all have their fair share of bad stretches.

Justin Tyme
02-16-2012, 02:12 PM
Can you let me in on what Bird is supposed to do to right the ship? What "things" have to change and how?



I never said I knew. I "expect" Bird to know, since he's in CHARGE "with access to what's going on." He's the one being paid millions to have the answers and resolve the problem. If he doesn't know or can't fix the problem, then he's not the job he was hired and paid to do.

90'sNBARocked
02-16-2012, 02:21 PM
If you're comparing them to the Bulls then sure. But if you're comparing them to other young up and coming teams, they all have their fair share of bad stretches.

Sure and agree they will have bad stretches but to me that would mean losing 1-3 games in a row to teams that went deep into the playoffs last year and the games were competitive and we played the way we played earlier in the season, but lost in the end

This is different to me becuase we look like a shell of our former selves

CJ Jones
02-16-2012, 02:33 PM
Pacers winning : Pacers are 1 player away from winning it all, Pacers an elite team, why fans dont attend pacers game, I LOVE this team.

Pacers lose : They quit, we have only 1 decent player, Pacers is in the bottom of the league, no wonder noone watches this heartless team, cant watch this terrible team atm, gonna start cheering for them when they start winning.

:picard:

... Hyperbole much? Sorry I had to Picard you but are you ever going to add anything to the conversation or are you just here to rag on other posters so you can collect thanks? Do you mind occasionally throwing out an opinion or point of view please?


I know you are referring to AJ and I agree. When he gets consistent minutes his play gets more consistent. He is not a microwave and needs rhythm to produce.

Lance's lack of hitting a jumper is slowing this team down. When Hill comes back I would like to see AJ get Lance like minutes for 3 weeks.

If I made a list of all the things that are slowing us down Lances's jump shot would be at the very bottom. We got bigger problems than that.

BTW AJ had better than Lance like minutes last year (16mpg). What he do with those minutes? He shot 35% - last in the league.

Not trying to bash AJ here. Just sticking up for Lance.

vnzla81
02-16-2012, 02:38 PM
[/B]


... Hyperbole much? Sorry I had to Picard you but are you ever going to add anything to the conversation or are you just here to rag on other posters so you can collect thanks? .

He want's to be like Traders Joe.

Eleazar
02-16-2012, 02:53 PM
[/B]

:picard:

... Hyperbole much? Sorry I had to Picard you but are you ever going to add anything to the conversation or are you just here to rag on other posters so you can collect thanks? Do you mind occasionally throwing out an opinion or point of view please?



If I made a list of all the things that are slowing us down Lances's jump shot would be at the very bottom. We got bigger problems than that.

BTW AJ had better than Lance like minutes last year (16mpg). What he do with those minutes? He shot 35% - last in the league.

Not trying to bash AJ here. Just sticking up for Lance.

Well if you are not trying to bash Price then maybe you shouldn't bash him. You don't have to bash him to stand up for Lance. So don't pretend saying, "Not trying to bash AJ" means anything if you just hashed him.

Trader Joe
02-16-2012, 02:57 PM
He want's to be like Traders Joe.

And to think I took you off ignore today. Also, isn't this post...hmm, sort of ironic?

I like how you always act there is only one side in my arguments, but remember it takes two to tango.

Sookie
02-16-2012, 03:01 PM
I know you are referring to AJ and I agree. When he gets consistent minutes his play gets more consistent. He is not a microwave and needs rhythm to produce.

Lance's lack of hitting a jumper is slowing this team down. When Hill comes back I would like to see AJ get Lance like minutes for 3 weeks.

Funny enough, as much as I like AJ. I wasn't actually thinking about him when I wrote this. (more like, not being afraid to sit vets West and Granger, for their more energetic and more likely to put in effort counterparts Tyler and Dahntay), and DC's one of the few whose effort I don't question (on the starters.)

Do I think AJ should be playing ahead of Lance, absolutely. But not for effort reasons. Because there's only two point guards on the team, and he's one of them - and Lance and GHill aren't. I've been pretty strong on my praise for Lance when it comes to effort. I just think you need to play a point guard.

And I don't think that means you have to completely sit down Lance, I think we can still find spot minutes for him. Just in terms of what he does on the court, it's not as valuable as AJ or Hill and at some point, we have to think about wins over development - particularly when the other two guys are pretty darn young themselves.

Since86
02-16-2012, 03:05 PM
I like how you always act there is only one side in my arguments, but remember it takes two to tango.

Not around here. I've been told that a few times.

90'sNBARocked
02-16-2012, 03:23 PM
Funny enough, as much as I like AJ. I wasn't actually thinking about him when I wrote this. (more like, not being afraid to sit vets West and Granger, for their more energetic and more likely to put in effort counterparts Tyler and Dahntay), and DC's one of the few whose effort I don't question (on the starters.)

Do I think AJ should be playing ahead of Lance, absolutely. But not for effort reasons. Because there's only two point guards on the team, and he's one of them - and Lance and GHill aren't. I've been pretty strong on my praise for Lance when it comes to effort. I just think you need to play a point guard.

And I don't think that means you have to completely sit down Lance, I think we can still find spot minutes for him. Just in terms of what he does on the court, it's not as valuable as AJ or Hill and at some point, we have to think about wins over development - particularly when the other two guys are pretty darn young themselves.

Agree tih you on the "egg timer " quote

I think AJ deserves minutes and will play better as he gets consistent minutes, but I still say Lance can be /is a PG, and more effective with the ball in his hands

but we have been down that road many times , and ok to differ in opinion

PS boy did your Huskies put the smack down on De Paul last ngiht

flox
02-16-2012, 03:23 PM
I'm starting to think this could be some long-term fatigue, not anything recent. The first half of this busy schedule, all of the traveling from a ton of road games, and to be competing hard against some really good teams (enough to beat them in their own floor, no less)... I just think that whole long stretch caught up with them, and as it was about to finally wind down I think they subconsciously finally let themselves exhale and feel how tired they really were. You can accrue fatigue over a long period of time from high effor and/or low sleep.

High long term fatigue could account for the low energy/poor body language, the extra missed shots, and the less than sharp minds that can slow down assignments/rotations. I think it could be the biggest factor here.

And again the Hill/Granger injuries do no favors, plus now that it's a losing streak players aren't trusting the system as much because they badly want to provide some kind of spark, but what happens is unless they get hot, going away from the team gameplan otherwise backfires.

All-star break can't get here fast enough IMO.

I would agree with this, but I would have hoped that a young team like ours would feel the fatigue less. When you factor that into the recent surges by the veteran teams I'm starting to wonder if we made a mistake by starting so hot so early and establishing a pace that we can't sustain.


Or...we're letting us cool off and then repushing late in the season. But that would be very dangerous, as getting back into peak form is really hard and its hard to get a team to surge at the right time. But hopefully they will. I would maintain that Vogel, despite my stance on him, did get the team to surge enough late last season to make them play well in the playoffs.

I hope he can make them surge at the right time again. Otherwise the fear is that we have already played our best basketball....in the regular season.

90'sNBARocked
02-16-2012, 03:25 PM
A Flox sighting !!

How ironic as I voted you for "Post more often"

How are things in New Jersuleum?

Just because OBIE is gone , no need to stay away, in fact sometimes I wish OBIE provied ONLY offensive advice as man we are struggling in that area

Sookie
02-16-2012, 03:26 PM
Agree tih you on the "egg timer " quote

I think AJ deserves minutes and will play better as he gets consistent minutes, but I still say Lance can be /is a PG, and more effective with the ball in his hands

but we have been down that road many times , and ok to differ in opinion

PS boy did your Huskies put the smack down on De Paul last ngiht

Yea, we're going to have to agree to disagree. Although, I think, even if you are right eventually, Lance isn't ready for that yet.

Didn't notice about the Huskies..I pretty much gave up on them. They were playing considerably worse than the Pacers. :laugh:

flox
02-16-2012, 03:35 PM
Maybe the coaching ghost of JOB has shown up.


:FACEPALM: :FACEPALM:



Why is this so surprising to everybody? There is really no need to panic. They'll probably run off a stretch of 6 straight wins leading to the Chicago game, starting tonight. They have 4 games against the 2 worst teams in the league, and 2 home games against teams that have combined to win 19 games.

This team is who we all should have known they were, from the very beginning. They won more than their share of close games, and played a really weak schedule early. They've lost a couple close games, and got blown out by a far superior team. Last night was a stinker, but a .500 (or maybe slightly better) team will have those on occasion. It happens, and it will happen again this year.

Everyone overreacted to the good record early, and now are overreacting to a bad stretch now. This is who they've always been. I fully expect this 5 game losing streak to be followed up by a 6 game win streak, and then everybody will think we're back to being contenders, when in reality we've been the same all along.

Man hotstreaks...do they exist? How do they work?


A Flox sighting !!

How ironic as I voted you for "Post more often"

How are things in New Jersuleum?

Just because OBIE is gone , no need to stay away, in fact sometimes I wish OBIE provied ONLY offensive advice as man we are struggling in that area

Trying to find a job. =(. But with the recent 5 game losing streak, I thought I'd chime in since I don't think we're this bad. This losing streak is a bad sign but we still have to remind ourselves of who was out during this stretch, but also, more importantly, how we're actually playing.

Major Cold
02-16-2012, 04:06 PM
[/B]

If I made a list of all the things that are slowing us down Lances's jump shot would be at the very bottom. We got bigger problems than that.


I agree. I wish I would have ranked them so you didn't have to address that. Next time I will be sure to put the 5 things above everything I comment on.

[/B]
BTW AJ had better than Lance like minutes last year (16mpg). What he do with those minutes? He shot 35% - last in the league.

Not trying to bash AJ here. Just sticking up for Lance.

That was last year. And if I had to pick a backup PG between last year's AJ and this years Lance I don't think it would be as easy as you would like. Please do not look but Lance is only shooting 2% better than last year's AJ---http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/ind/stats

Lance's defense is getting better. But I still do not know about the sustainability of his offensive game. He can get to the rim. And either throw up crap, get stuffed, turnover the ball, or score.

Neither of them are great. But we are seeing AJ playing better and more consistently. So that is why I think he should play more. Lance supporters want to see him play more why?

I liked Lance over AJ to start the season to see what Lance can bring thus far into his career. I have seen it and I think the experiment needs to be put on hold for later.

Banta
02-16-2012, 04:43 PM
I think all we're seeing right now is what happens when medicore (say average if that sounds nicer to you) players lose their confidence. Outside of Danny and West, we have a roster full of mediocre players.

You can say what you want about Hibbert's pre-slide consistency but he's a mediocre player until he becomes agressive at setting up and demanding the ball. Same with PG-- just mediocre until he develops any semblance of consistency. Collison, Hill-- both mediocre (say average) players.

Early in the year they were playing with supreme confidence and they gutted out a lot of early victories. Some time around the well-publicized "fix the offense" sessions, players began to doubt themselves and they're a .500 team since then.

CJ Jones
02-16-2012, 04:44 PM
Well if you are not trying to bash Price then maybe you shouldn't bash him. You don't have to bash him to stand up for Lance. So don't pretend saying, "Not trying to bash AJ" means anything if you just hashed him.:picard:

Sorry I had to pull your Picard too, but nowhere did I bash AJ. I stated a fact.

People want to bench Lance 30 games in after AJ had 82 last year to show what he could do. It just ain't fair.



I agree. I wish I would have ranked them so you didn't have to address that. Next time I will be sure to put the 5 things above everything I comment on.

That was last year. And if I had to pick a backup PG between last year's AJ and this years Lance I don't think it would be as easy as you would like. Please do not look but Lance is only shooting 2% better than last year's AJ---http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/ind/stats

Lance's defense is getting better. But I still do not know about the sustainability of his offensive game. He can get to the rim. And either throw up crap, get stuffed, turnover the ball, or score.

Neither of them are great. But we are seeing AJ playing better and more consistently. So that is why I think he should play more. Lance supporters want to see him play more why?

I liked Lance over AJ to start the season to see what Lance can bring thus far into his career. I have seen it and I think the experiment needs to be put on hold for later.

The man's 21 years old, and one the most talented players on the team. If you and others don't think so that's your right, but me personally, I'm gonna side with the Legend on this one.

Major Cold
02-16-2012, 05:05 PM
The man's 21 years old, and one the most talented players on the team. If you and others don't think so that's your right, but me personally, I'm gonna side with the Legend on this one.

Talent does not equate the best player on the team. We have talked about how you talent can be equated potential. And potential is met with wisdom and maturation. And you need some playing time to get that. And getting that playing time might be detrimental to the chemistry of the team.

If Larry really thinks that Lance is the best player, then why did he go out and get Hill? Or why didn't he release Price and save $700k? Why is Paul George and DC starting over him?

Please do not qualify Bird's most talented quote with the most NBA readied player available.

Right now it is debatable. But Lance is your boy. I understand. AJ is far from mine, I actually want Lance over him next year. But as for this year and the need to break this funk. I am willing to go with AJ for awhile like we did with Lance.

Trader Joe
02-16-2012, 05:05 PM
Am I the only one that thinks the Picard smiley has jumped the shark on this forum about 6 months ago?

CJ Jones
02-16-2012, 05:23 PM
Talent does not equate the best player on the team. We have talked about how you talent can be equated potential. And potential is met with wisdom and maturation. And you need some playing time to get that. And getting that playing time might be detrimental to the chemistry of the team.

If Larry really thinks that Lance is the best player, then why did he go out and get Hill? Or why didn't he release Price and save $700k? Why is Paul George and DC starting over him?

Please do not qualify Bird's most talented quote with the most NBA readied player available.

Right now it is debatable. But Lance is your boy. I understand. AJ is far from mine, I actually want Lance over him next year. But as for this year and the need to break this funk. I am willing to go with AJ for awhile like we did with Lance.

No ones said either of those things.

Honestly, I agree with you that he's not a very good player right now. The point is, if we want to tap in to the talent Bird sees in Lance he's going to need playing time. If I thought the team would break out of it's funk and go onto the ECF with AJ as the back up PG I'd be all for it, but I don't think he makes that much of a difference.

Don't get me wrong, I like AJ on this team. I think he's a good player that belongs in this league, but I'm not sure your championship material if he's logging major minutes at PG. It's not worth it to me for Lance's development to get stunted to win a few more games this year. JMO as always.

CJ Jones
02-16-2012, 05:26 PM
Am I the only one that thinks the Picard smiley has jumped the shark on this forum about 6 months ago?

<a href="http://photobucket.com/images/deal%20with%20it%20gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m607/xLovely_Emox/gif/h.gif" border="0" alt="Deal with it gif Pictures, Images and Photos"/></a>

Sorry bro... just got here a few weeks ago.

Saras
02-16-2012, 05:29 PM
[/B]

:picard:

... Hyperbole much? Sorry I had to Picard you but are you ever going to add anything to the conversation or are you just here to rag on other posters so you can collect thanks? Do you mind occasionally throwing out an opinion or point of view please?


Yes, ill keep collecting THANKS, thats the only reason i wake up everyday.

Ill add something for you, Pacers is in a slump, every team has them, even Heat or OKC or Spurs or whatever you pick. Team is young, playing their first winning season after ages, and most of the people tend to overreact on them both positively and negatively.

90'sNBARocked
02-16-2012, 05:34 PM
Yea, we're going to have to agree to disagree. Although, I think, even if you are right eventually, Lance isn't ready for that yet.

Didn't notice about the Huskies..I pretty much gave up on them. They were playing considerably worse than the Pacers. :laugh:

:confused: Sook your too good a fan , and Coach Calhoon is injured and when he gets back he is too good a coach

I agree Lance isnt ready , unless were talking spot minutes here and there

I will say this though, I wish when AJ and Lance are in the game together, the roles would be reveresed. I would ratehr Lance bring the ball up and initiate the offense while AJ played the SG. AJ is hands down a better outside shooter at this point than Lance and I would feel more comfortable with him in the corner than Lance

Seriously not a knock on AJ but more on Lance as watching him spot up , I get the same amount of confidence I got when McBob would launch from deep

90'sNBARocked
02-16-2012, 05:35 PM
:FACEPALM: :FACEPALM:




Man hotstreaks...do they exist? How do they work?



Trying to find a job. =(. But with the recent 5 game losing streak, I thought I'd chime in since I don't think we're this bad. This losing streak is a bad sign but we still have to remind ourselves of who was out during this stretch, but also, more importantly, how we're actually playing.

Flox

PM me bro with your skills set and what your looking for., I still got a lot of contacts in the tri state area and might be of help

Sparhawk
02-16-2012, 05:39 PM
Lance has been more aggressive looking for his shot. Isn't that what we wanted? He just needs to stay away from the 3. 4-10 isn't the end of the world, and he had 2 steals. More importantly, 0 TOs. Lance has also been cutting down on his TOs. That marks improvement in my book.

AJ is streaky, and a very poor streaky (career .379!). He'll have 3 or 4 good games, but then disappear for 10-12.

90'sNBARocked
02-16-2012, 05:45 PM
Lance has been more aggressive looking for his shot. Isn't that what we wanted? He just needs to stay away from the 3. 4-10 isn't the end of the world, and he had 2 steals. More importantly, 0 TOs. Lance has also been cutting down on his TOs. That marks improvement in my book.

AJ is streaky, and a very poor streaky (career .379!). He'll have 3 or 4 good games, but then disappear for 10-12.

What AJ has over LAnce right now is consistency. I trust AJ to make the right play moreso than Lance. The counterpoint to thsi is, that I believe Lance has abilities that AJ doesnt (posting up, strength, passing off the drive etc) thats why I want him to get consistent time, that is the only way to improve. I would love to see Lance play with the starters (i know it wont happen) because with the starters he would be a facilatotor and a good one, and might even be open more

vnzla81
02-16-2012, 06:02 PM
Am I the only one that thinks the Picard smiley has jumped the shark on this forum about 6 months ago?

The guy is new to PD he doesn't know that, hey you just got 4 thanks on that comment that must make you feel good.......

Ratking
02-16-2012, 06:30 PM
I'm only a little worried, cause I would have expected them to come out guns blazing after the break before the Miami game, considering they will have a 5 day break over All-Star weekend (starting next Thursday).

Hicks, I agree that we have to remind ourselves of the insane schedule so far this season, and empathize with the possibility that they are just extremely fatigued. I still thought they would have given more effort in the last week before a 5 day break.

Maybe we will see that effort starting tonight. It could have been a sort of strategy not to blow it all against a superior Miami team and then be spent for the following two games. I still think we should have won last night, even without Granger. Central Division opponent, missing best player: I don't see a reason for the lack of motivation.

So if its a counter fatigue strategy, I hope tonight we see its payoff. Then again, we didn't plan for a Granger injury.

Shade
02-16-2012, 06:37 PM
Trying to find a job. =(. But with the recent 5 game losing streak, I thought I'd chime in since I don't think we're this bad. This losing streak is a bad sign but we still have to remind ourselves of who was out during this stretch, but also, more importantly, how we're actually playing.

I knew you were really JOB. ;)

90'sNBARocked
02-16-2012, 06:38 PM
Nice work TJ

Sparhawk
02-16-2012, 06:53 PM
I'm only a little worried, cause I would have expected them to come out guns blazing after the break before the Miami game, considering they will have a 5 day break over All-Star weekend (starting next Thursday).

Hicks, I agree that we have to remind ourselves of the insane schedule so far this season, and empathize with the possibility that they are just extremely fatigued. I still thought they would have given more effort in the last week before a 5 day break.

Maybe we will see that effort starting tonight. It could have been a sort of strategy not to blow it all against a superior Miami team and then be spent for the following two games. I still think we should have won last night, even without Granger. Central Division opponent, missing best player: I don't see a reason for the lack of motivation.

So if its a counter fatigue strategy, I hope tonight we see its payoff. Then again, we didn't plan for a Granger injury.

I don't buy that. The Pacers have played 1 less game than some other teams. Everyone has a tight schedule. Why are the Pacers playing with less energy than others?

Naptown_Seth
02-16-2012, 07:06 PM
I was going to write a big slam about how a 5 game losing streak this year is like a 6+ streak loss in a normal year, and that 2nd round teams don't lose nearly 10% of their games in a stretch.

Then I did the research on just the Western 2nd round teams last year.

So the good news is apparently you can lose 5-6 games in a row and still be a title contender. I think the Mavs did it due to the loss of Dirk (by memory), but whatever. And Indy is without Hill and now Granger so that has to count for something.


Maybe it's not that bad after all??? Doesn't seem possible, but seeing the losing streaks of those teams put me in the shoes of their fans (Memphis was 8-14 I think, something like that) and they had to think the train had wrecked in the heart of those stretches of losing.

Nuntius
02-16-2012, 07:17 PM
and then everybody will think we're back to being contenders

We never were contenders to begin with but we're not slightly above .500 either.

The record we had was not a farce. We're a good enough team to compete for the 3rd to 6th seeds. Probably around .650.

That said, you are right that this board overreacts. But frankly I don't see this team as only being a .500 team or slightly above it.

Justin Tyme
02-16-2012, 07:31 PM
I don't buy that. The Pacers have played 1 less game than some other teams. Everyone has a tight schedule. Why are the Pacers playing with less energy than others?


Especially, when not playing the up tempo game the former coach did. It was discussed many many times over the seasons of his style creating fatigue in the players, b/c of his run n gun style game.