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View Full Version : Pacers need to think bigger



doctor-h
02-15-2012, 10:40 PM
Pacers need to add something to the team. I think it is a big time scorer. Not just a shooter. We don't have a point guard that can see the floor well enough or create for others for just a shooter to be able to help the team. We need to stop falling in love with our mediocre players and be willing to make a major move to get someone that can truly make a difference. We passed on Nene and went for West. Just think if you had Nene at the power forward and then sliding over to the 5 spot. It would give you more athleticism, a physical presence. He could have filled 2 voids that we needed desperately. We need to go after someone like Montae Ellis. He is a tough guy who can make tough shots and create his own and create for others. Morrow would be a slight improvement but will not get the minutes to be a major factor. Nash would be great. He would show these guys how to play and nice it is to have someone get you the ball in great position to score.

TheDon
02-15-2012, 10:43 PM
Pacers need to add something to the team. I think it is a big time scorer. Not just a shooter. We don't have a point guard that can see the floor well enough or create for others for just a shooter to be able to help the team. We need to stop falling in love with our mediocre players and be willing to make a major move to get someone that can truly make a difference. We passed on Nene and went for West. Just think if you had Nene at the power forward and then sliding over to the 5 spot. It would give you more athleticism, a physical presence. He could have filled 2 voids that we needed desperately. We need to go after someone like Montae Ellis. He is a tough guy who can make tough shots and create his own and create for others. Morrow would be a slight improvement but will not get the minutes to be a major factor. Nash would be great. He would show these guys how to play and nice it is to have someone get you the ball in great position to score.

we didn't pass on nene, nene took more money and an extra year that we couldn't give

imawhat
02-15-2012, 10:44 PM
I think we've had the same #1 personnel issue since 2005. It's more obvious now because we have few shot creators.

LA_Confidential
02-15-2012, 10:47 PM
We need a point guard who is at or above the level of Danny!

graphic-er
02-15-2012, 10:54 PM
I dunno, at this point I would hold off on any trade until we see what this team looks like when we get Hill back for a handful of games.

But that said if we were to go after a scorer I'd totally be on board with bringing in Monta. Just as good of a point guard as DC, and a better scorer.

Pacerized
02-15-2012, 11:02 PM
At least this is happening before the trade deadline and not just after. It should make Bird a little more aggressive in going after a trade but I still hope he remains patient just as he was this past summer. Maybe we can land Kaman just for absorbing his salary. In truth we're better off waiting until the summer. Due to Roy having such a low cap hold, Bird will be able to bring in 2 impact players or go after a max contract player like Williams without giving up anything. He needs to do this and then sign Roy for whatever it takes (which is looking more like it won't be a max contract everyday). Spend a little over 20 mil on free agents then bring in Roy for 10-14. We'll be over the cap for a long time to come but we'll still be under the LT and able to keep PG when he's due. It's really Bird's last shot to add to the team. Once we sign Roy we'll be too close to the cap to bring anyone else in other then MLE players.
My goal would be to land Kaman and Nash as free agents, or go after Williams. Trades can happen latter on once we stock pile assets. I don't think trading our young players away now makes any sense unless Bird finds a fire sale from a team trying to get under the LT.

doctor-h
02-15-2012, 11:21 PM
we didn't pass on nene, nene took more money and an extra year that we couldn't give

Why couldn't we have given him more money and another year. We could have, we just chose not to. We are saving cap space for what. We don't even know. There are on guarantees, we need to make something happen instead of waiting for it to fall in our laps. We need fans in the seats now. We need someone they will pay to watch play. The way the team has performed lately, fans are going to be hesitant again. The Miami game was a sellout. We needed players to step up and take on that kind of challenge. We had nobody. It was embarrassing and how many of those fans are going to take this team seriously. Nene was just an example. I don't even know if that could have happened. I am just tossing out an example of us never willing to make that big move. West is a good player but he is not the difference maker and he won't put fans in the seats.

HC
02-15-2012, 11:24 PM
Why couldn't we have given him more money and another year. We could have, we just chose not to. We are saving cap space for what. We don't even know. There are on guarantees, we need to make something happen instead of waiting for it to fall in our laps. We need fans in the seats now. We need someone they will pay to watch play. The way the team has performed lately, fans are going to be hesitant again. The Miami game was a sellout. We needed players to step up and take on that kind of challenge. We had nobody. It was embarrassing and how many of those fans are going to take this team seriously. Nene was just an example. I don't even know if that could have happened. I am just tossing out an example of us never willing to make that big move. West is a good player but he is not the difference maker and he won't put fans in the seats.

No under the new CBA Denver was able to give him an extra year than any other team.

doctor-h
02-15-2012, 11:25 PM
I dunno, at this point I would hold off on any trade until we see what this team looks like when we get Hill back for a handful of games.

But that said if we were to go after a scorer I'd totally be on board with bringing in Monta. Just as good of a point guard as DC, and a better scorer.

Thats the problem. We are always waiting. Hill is a role player, nothing more. He can help make the team better, but he is not going to be a big draw. He is not a big name. Average local players are nice to have but they don't sellout arenas. I love having George on the team, but we need a name and someone who can take over a game.

HC
02-15-2012, 11:27 PM
Thats the problem. We are always waiting. Hill is a role player, nothing more. He can help make the team better, but he is not going to be a big draw. He is not a big name. Average local players are nice to have but they don't sellout arenas. I love having George on the team, but we need a name and someone who can take over a game.

3-7 w/out Hill.

doctor-h
02-15-2012, 11:28 PM
No under the new CBA Denver was able to give him an extra year than any other team.

Oh my bad there. I did not know that but I am not sure that would been what sealed the deal anyway. Nene is just an example anyway. I just think someone like him could have been great on the Pacers.

graphic-er
02-15-2012, 11:32 PM
Thats the problem. We are always waiting. Hill is a role player, nothing more. He can help make the team better, but he is not going to be a big draw. He is not a big name. Average local players are nice to have but they don't sellout arenas. I love having George on the team, but we need a name and someone who can take over a game.

I will give you this...
If we got Monta Ellis we would be alot better than we are now. If we were able to keep Hill and PG and bring in Ellis we would have a deadly combo.

You'd have Hill and PG making all sorts of defensive plays together and Monta would convert on every fast break opportunity. We wouldn't be any worse defensively from the Point either.

BlueNGold
02-15-2012, 11:37 PM
We have some nice players. However, when your best players were picked in the teens of the draft and the highest was #9....it's very, very difficult to compete with these teams that have #1 or top 5 picks. Sure, Paul George is an exciting player but he's just potential right now. Granger amounts to a Shawn Marion level talent. Roy isn't playing like an all-star C, anymore at least. Oh, how far have centers fell since the 90's. ...and Collison is just a younger version of TJ Ford with a bit better perimeter game. Not much talent if you really want to compare it to the DWades, Dwights, Lebrons, Kyries, etc...

jeffg-body
02-16-2012, 12:05 AM
I agree that we may need to make a big trade in the near future. I wonder what Danny, DC, Dahntay, Tyler, Stephenson, AJ and cap space would get us in regards to getting a super talented point guard and a solid wing player. If we could land those 2 players, we could shift PG to the 3 spot and let him grow into the position. If we go after a bigger name guy I would expect it to happen only if they agree to an extension. We need guys who will be around the next few years. Right now the only players that I would deem untouchable are: Roy, PG, and DW. For the right deal, maybe even one of those guys could be had.

beast23
02-16-2012, 02:22 AM
I will give you this...
If we got Monta Ellis we would be alot better than we are now. If we were able to keep Hill and PG and bring in Ellis we would have a deadly combo.

You'd have Hill and PG making all sorts of defensive plays together and Monta would convert on every fast break opportunity. We wouldn't be any worse defensively from the Point either.

Folks keep talking about getting a scorer that is capable creating for himself. And, I have to admit, I have been down that path as well.

But that just won't do it. Getting that scorer will help some, but it is simply not enough. That will not make Granger, Hibbert, West nor anyone else on the floor better.

The only way you make all these other players better is to acquire a player that is able to deliver them the ball surely and accurately where and when they need it.

And less face it, I'd rather find ways to improve the play of everyone on the team as opposed to just adding one good player that can score.

So, I've come around to thinking the way that some of you have been thinking for quite some time. If we want to see the most marked improvement in the players that we already have, then provide them with a PG that is a much better creator than the ones we already have.

Our biggest need is not a scorer. It is a player that can make all of our present players better and more efficient scorers.

D-BONE
02-16-2012, 06:53 AM
Folks keep talking about getting a scorer that is capable creating for himself. And, I have to admit, I have been down that path as well.

But that just won't do it. Getting that scorer will help some, but it is simply not enough. That will not make Granger, Hibbert, West nor anyone else on the floor better.

The only way you make all these other players better is to acquire a player that is able to deliver them the ball surely and accurately where and when they need it.

And less face it, I'd rather find ways to improve the play of everyone on the team as opposed to just adding one good player that can score.

So, I've come around to thinking the way that some of you have been thinking for quite some time. If we want to see the most marked improvement in the players that we already have, then provide them with a PG that is a much better creator than the ones we already have.

Our biggest need is not a scorer. It is a player that can make all of our present players better and more efficient scorers.

I'd say they are both pretty big needs, but the point position is a bit higher priority. So, yes, I agree. More athletic, strong bigs at 4, 5 or combo would also be a gaping hole.

NapTonius Monk
02-16-2012, 07:27 AM
I will give you this...
If we got Monta Ellis we would be alot better than we are now. If we were able to keep Hill and PG and bring in Ellis we would have a deadly combo.

You'd have Hill and PG making all sorts of defensive plays together and Monta would convert on every fast break opportunity. We wouldn't be any worse defensively from the Point either.

We wouldn't necessarily be better with Ellis. Granted, he is a better scorer, but does he make his teammates better?

NapTonius Monk
02-16-2012, 07:28 AM
I agree that we may need to make a big trade in the near future. I wonder what Danny, DC, Dahntay, Tyler, Stephenson, AJ and cap space would get us in regards to getting a super talented point guard and a solid wing player. If we could land those 2 players, we could shift PG to the 3 spot and let him grow into the position. If we go after a bigger name guy I would expect it to happen only if they agree to an extension. We need guys who will be around the next few years. Right now the only players that I would deem untouchable are: Roy, PG, and DW. For the right deal, maybe even one of those guys could be had.
Paul hasn't exactly burned the house down when Danny has been out of the lineup. He just doesn't seem ready to be the guy yet.

doctor-h
02-16-2012, 08:24 AM
Folks keep talking about getting a scorer that is capable creating for himself. And, I have to admit, I have been down that path as well.

But that just won't do it. Getting that scorer will help some, but it is simply not enough. That will not make Granger, Hibbert, West nor anyone else on the floor better.

The only way you make all these other players better is to acquire a player that is able to deliver them the ball surely and accurately where and when they need it.

And less face it, I'd rather find ways to improve the play of everyone on the team as opposed to just adding one good player that can score.

So, I've come around to thinking the way that some of you have been thinking for quite some time. If we want to see the most marked improvement in the players that we already have, then provide them with a PG that is a much better creator than the ones we already have.

Our biggest need is not a scorer. It is a player that can make all of our present players better and more efficient scorers.

You are right but why can't that player do both. I have been saying for years that we need a player to deliver the ball. That is exactly why I brought up Nash. He would be the perfect fit all though his age would limit him to a couple of years at most. But he is exactly the kind we need.

graphic-er
02-16-2012, 08:39 AM
We wouldn't necessarily be better with Ellis. Granted, he is a better scorer, but does he make his teammates better?

DOES DC??

NapTonius Monk
02-16-2012, 09:23 AM
DOES DC??

Not really. It's not that I'm opposed to Montae Ellis in favor of DC, but I think some of the same issues we're facing right now would continue after Ellis got here.

imbtyler
02-16-2012, 09:29 AM
Paul hasn't exactly burned the house down when Danny has been out of the lineup. He just doesn't seem ready to be the guy yet.

Paul hasn't been playing out of his position. Dahntay plays the 3 whenever PG is on the floor, playing the 2. Dahntay started at SF last night, and was playing like he was supposed to replace Danny Granger (taking poor shots, making none, trying to take over the game early), and failed.

We need a point guard, a wing player, and another QUALITY big man. Then, we'll have the best bench in the league.

ksuttonjr76
02-16-2012, 09:54 AM
Sorry, I'm not ready to blow up this team. HOWEVER, we need to do something. The 3-7 record since George Hill went out is THE telling story. I can't pin down what we EXACTLY lost once we lost him, but we lost SOMETHING. Personally, I'm not against trading Hansbrough and Collison for another PG/PF combination, and signing JR Smith to give us more scoring off the bench. H*ll, I'm not against trading those two to get a good bench PF/C, signing JR Smith, and starting Stephenson.

Man, I sooooooooooooooooo wished we would have pulled that Rondo trade. The Celtics are still in the playoff race, so I highly doubt that Ainge will make the trade now.

Justin Tyme
02-16-2012, 06:18 PM
Folks keep talking about getting a scorer that is capable creating for himself. And, I have to admit, I have been down that path as well.

But that just won't do it. Getting that scorer will help some, but it is simply not enough. That will not make Granger, Hibbert, West nor anyone else on the floor better.

The only way you make all these other players better is to acquire a player that is able to deliver them the ball surely and accurately where and when they need it.

And less face it, I'd rather find ways to improve the play of everyone on the team as opposed to just adding one good player that can score.

So, I've come around to thinking the way that some of you have been thinking for quite some time. If we want to see the most marked improvement in the players that we already have, then provide them with a PG that is a much better creator than the ones we already have.

Our biggest need is not a scorer. It is a player that can make all of our present players better and more efficient scorers.



We've hashed this PG issue to death in the past, and basically people want a player who the other 29 teams would like too. Nash, Rondo, DWilliams, etc. The chances of the Pacers getting a star PG that is a facilitator who makes his team mates better is a pipe dream. I don't care if the PG is a Nash quality type star, but I want a pass 1st, get my team mates involved, and who can play "D" PG. If I had my druthers, that PG would have size as well. Star power is secondary to me whereas productivity is a high priority. DC is a middle of the pack PG. It truly makes me wonder what Bird thought DC was when he traded for him. Same applies to what did Bird think he was getting in TJ Ford? Or Jarrett Jack? Does Bird really know how to evaluate or was he more interested in trading JO & Murphy for whatever he could get in hopes the PG could possibly workout?

Cactus Jax
02-16-2012, 06:27 PM
Paul hasn't been playing out of his position. Dahntay plays the 3 whenever PG is on the floor, playing the 2. Dahntay started at SF last night, and was playing like he was supposed to replace Danny Granger (taking poor shots, making none, trying to take over the game early), and failed.

We need a point guard, a wing player, and another QUALITY big man. Then, we'll have the best bench in the league.

I'd rather aim for the best starting line-up in the NBA than the best bench.

IndyJones
02-16-2012, 06:33 PM
we should tank the rest of the season to get a higher draft pick

Lance George
02-16-2012, 06:35 PM
Maybe we can really impress Deron Williams tonight.

CJ Jones
02-16-2012, 07:11 PM
Not really. It's not that I'm opposed to Montae Ellis in favor of DC, but I think some of the same issues we're facing right now would continue after Ellis got here.

Monta's a really good passer, and because of his explosiveness he's also got the ability to draw attention away from other players to create the lanes needed to make those passes. That's really important in the PNR.

Lance George
02-16-2012, 07:30 PM
Maybe we can really impress Deron Williams tonight.

...or maybe not.

beast23
02-16-2012, 10:50 PM
We've hashed this PG issue to death in the past, and basically people want a player who the other 29 teams would like too. Nash, Rondo, DWilliams, etc. The chances of the Pacers getting a star PG that is a facilitator who makes his team mates better is a pipe dream. I don't care if the PG is a Nash quality type star, but I want a pass 1st, get my team mates involved, and who can play "D" PG. If I had my druthers, that PG would have size as well. Star power is secondary to me whereas productivity is a high priority. DC is a middle of the pack PG. It truly makes me wonder what Bird thought DC was when he traded for him. Same applies to what did Bird think he was getting in TJ Ford? Or Jarrett Jack? Does Bird really know how to evaluate or was he more interested in trading JO & Murphy for whatever he could get in hopes the PG could possibly workout?

I think we are on the same page with regards to the attributes that we want. However, we may differ with how we each define "productivity" for the PG. I want someone in the vein of a pass-first PG with vision who also plays "D", but I'm more concerned with how well his teammates play around him, due to his being on the floor, than I am concerned about his own personal stats.

I don't know if I'd call getting Nash this season a pipe dream, but the odds are very low. I would say the chances of signing him this summer are non-existent without first having traded for him during the season. One PG that I believe serves my definition of a PG that has been on my list for a very long time is Hinrich. Our chances of signing him this summer, although not good, could at least be categorized as "reasonable" and "possible".

LA_Confidential
02-16-2012, 11:25 PM
I think we are on the same page with regards to the attributes that we want. However, we may differ with how we each define "productivity" for the PG. I want someone in the vein of a pass-first PG with vision who also plays "D", but I'm more concerned with how well his teammates play around him, due to his being on the floor, than I am concerned about his own personal stats.

I don't know if I'd call getting Nash this season a pipe dream, but the odds are very low. I would say the chances of signing him this summer are non-existent without first having traded for him during the season. One PG that I believe serves my definition of a PG that has been on my list for a very long time is Hinrich. Our chances of signing him this summer, although not good, could at least be categorized as "reasonable" and "possible".

Kirk Hinrich is not the answer.

beast23
02-16-2012, 11:29 PM
Kirk Hinrich is not the answer.
Don't play IKIWISI. Step up and expound please.

LA_Confidential
02-16-2012, 11:51 PM
Don't play IKIWISI. Step up and expound please.

Ok I'll elaborate :D.

Hinrich is a solid vet point who can pass, shoot, play d , yada yada but at this point, as a starter, he'd be a more suitable fit for a team like LAL where he can play off of a superstar. Hinrich is, and for the most part, always has been a rotation player. This team doesn't need a rotation Point Guard, we already have one in George Hill. What we need is a significant upgrade as a starter. Replacing DC with Hinrich would just create a new thread topic about Larry not taking advantage of capspace.

Again, Hinrich is solid and I have nothing against him but he would just be another name on the long list of "not the answer" point guards. But if he and George Hill were both coming off our bench that be awesome. It would at least lessen how drastic an upgrade we'd need at the starting spot. But we'd still need an upgrade at the starting spot.

Pacers4Life
02-17-2012, 03:22 AM
We've hashed this PG issue to death in the past, and basically people want a player who the other 29 teams would like too. Nash, Rondo, DWilliams, etc. The chances of the Pacers getting a star PG that is a facilitator who makes his team mates better is a pipe dream. I don't care if the PG is a Nash quality type star, but I want a pass 1st, get my team mates involved, and who can play "D" PG. If I had my druthers, that PG would have size as well. Star power is secondary to me whereas productivity is a high priority. DC is a middle of the pack PG. It truly makes me wonder what Bird thought DC was when he traded for him. Same applies to what did Bird think he was getting in TJ Ford? Or Jarrett Jack? Does Bird really know how to evaluate or was he more interested in trading JO & Murphy for whatever he could get in hopes the PG could possibly workout?

Do you recall what JO and tmurph were paid? It had seriously gotten to the point where I'd have taken a balcony level seat to a monster truck rally than watch either of those 2 aforementioned PAcers play another minute for us. I'm still stark crazy about getting DC.. He's like 22-23, and doesn't have a 6'10 frame to help him along.

My thinking bigger idea is just that. We need another big body because quite frankly what we've been seeing(or not seeing) out of Hibbert, Hans, West, and foster goes under the unseen category. Itsjust nit cuttin' it. I like them all, especially Sweet Lou, but they all need a serious kick in the ***. New blood could help.

Anthem
02-17-2012, 08:12 AM
This whole "big time scorer" thing is a little overrated.

Say we'd traded Danny for Melo before the season started. Would we be a better team?

I really don't think so.

vnzla81
02-17-2012, 08:33 AM
This whole "big time scorer" thing is a little overrated.

Say we'd traded Danny for Melo before the season started. Would we be a better team?

I really don't think so.

Nobody here wants Melo but yes we could be a better team, our offense fits Melo like a glove.