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View Full Version : Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks....



Peck
02-15-2012, 10:25 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Train_wreck_at_Montparnasse_1895.jpg/300px-Train_wreck_at_Montparnasse_1895.jpg

Remember that Pacers train that was on the track going through the Wolves & Mavs. well as you can see we are having a problem.

I'm not even going to bother with this one. I am somewhere between trying to justify what is going on and telling everyone to be patient or I'm going to make Vnzla81 sound poised and reasonable.

I will save my theory of a player I think may be the one breaking the chemistry for later when I am not so pessimistic (It's probably not who you think) *Hint it's not Lance*.

Anyway a friend of mine was at the game tonight and tweeted me that he spoke with Brooke at the game and she told him that Danny is out a least a week. Obviously I trust him as a source (old core team brother) but this isn't confirmed by any stretch of the imagination.

rexnom
02-15-2012, 10:26 PM
I'm intrigued by the theory. Is it Tyler? He's the only one that doesn't seem to be part of gang at times.

Sookie
02-15-2012, 10:26 PM
The player breaking team chemistry? I don't think it's Lance either.

I think it's David West

Quite frankly, I think the bench is pretty unified. I paid attention to the body language. When it's a majority of the bench in, they help each other out. They high five at the free throw line, they talk to each other.

They may struggle to score some times, but they always have energy and effort. They may make some mistakes..but they just always look like a team. When one of them has an emotional moment, the other ones are quick to talk to them. (Something that never happens with the starters)

The starters don't, and haven't. But David, more than anyone, has looked lethargic. And all of a sudden the offense has been focused on David getting more shots. And David isn't even fighting for rebounds any longer. I don't know what happened, but he, even more so than Roy looks different. The body language with him, is different than with the other guys.

imawhat
02-15-2012, 10:27 PM
I wish you wouldn't save the theory, because it could be one of about five players.

MiaDragon
02-15-2012, 10:31 PM
the player breaking team chemistry?

I think it's David West.

Im curious as to why you think its DW?

imawhat
02-15-2012, 10:31 PM
Plus it'd take my mind off the game.

vnzla81
02-15-2012, 10:32 PM
That player has to be somebody that was here last year when we had the same problem, I would say DJ and probably West.

MiaDragon
02-15-2012, 10:32 PM
This reeks more of a coaching issue than a single player IMO.

Ratking
02-15-2012, 10:32 PM
Miami traveled to Cleveland after the game last night as well. Maybe they flew their plane alongside ours, and Eddy Curry and Lebron James made faces at us through the windows the whole flight, while laughing flamboyantly and sipping glasses of fine victory champagne...

...I don't see any other explanation for our deflated sense of confidence...

HC
02-15-2012, 10:45 PM
My pick is West also, just a hunch.

able
02-15-2012, 10:49 PM
i see the odd thoughts turning into a hunted houses saga, **** or get off the pot peck :P

Shade
02-15-2012, 11:03 PM
That player has to be somebody that was here last year when we had the same problem, I would say DJ and probably West.

:confused:

Shade
02-15-2012, 11:05 PM
West is the last player I would suspect at causing chemistry issues.

MiaDragon
02-15-2012, 11:06 PM
:confused:

He was here in mind and spirit.

Sookie
02-15-2012, 11:09 PM
That player has to be somebody that was here last year when we had the same problem, I would say DJ and probably West.

I don't think so. The player last year causing the problem was pretty obviously Lance. I don't think it's him this year.

edit: I could be completely wrong about West. It could just be that he's annoying me more than any other player, so he's my guess. But I don't think I'm being that biased. There's at least, an obvious difference in energy level and body language with the bench and the starters, so, IMO, it's pretty obvious it wasn't them.

And with Granger out tonight, it's not Granger. And I'd quickly eliminate PG as one of the guys causing issues, because of being labeled "the perfect rookie" last season. I'd eliminate Roy too, despite his struggles, he just doesn't seem like a team chemistry problem guy. So, that leaves us at DC and West. And judging by player interactions..

That all said, this could just all be a result of all the starters at the same time playing poorly, for some unexplainable reason.

vnzla81
02-15-2012, 11:11 PM
:confused:

Ok so I didn't feel like writing more, I meant to say DJ because he was one of the divas last year and from this year I would say West, happy now? :p

HC
02-15-2012, 11:12 PM
West is the last player I would suspect at causing chemistry issues.

He seems to be frustrated almost all of the time imo. Likely because no one on this team seems to be able to get him the ball in the places he needs it.

Will Galen
02-15-2012, 11:16 PM
I think it's Danny. I think he got upset when Vogel let him set for 20 minutes when he was red hot the other night. I think it's pretty natural though. Here you've been struggling with your shot all season, and finally you are red hot and the coach lets you set. Then when you come back you've gone cold. That would upset anyone.

I think it's all on Vogel, because his substitute pattern isn't very good. He needs to keep the times down, because Danny was averaging 36 minutes a game there for about 9 games in a row, and he got gased and started slacking off which effected the team.

Vogel finally realized the problem and 'fixed' it at the wrong time. I don't really think it's anything to worry about. Danny knows Vogel is a rookie and he's not the type to stay mad long. Vogel is having growing pains is all.

As far as the whole team being down I think they are just mentally gased. They were all on the same page there for a while and paying attention and playing great, but you can't stay up mentally for the whole season.

Justin Tyme
02-15-2012, 11:17 PM
GRANGER

graphic-er
02-15-2012, 11:22 PM
GRANGER

Huh? Now why would it be him?

xIndyFan
02-15-2012, 11:38 PM
I think it's Danny. . .


GRANGER

if danny's out for a week, then we will get a chance to see if it's danny or not. :laugh::cry:

don't think it's danny. i think it's casue the pacers are young and tired. which makes their collective BBIQ go down. plus the league is catching up with what the pacers do. plus george hill is hurt. plus the lack of size at the 1 and the 4.

mostly i think the players just have to start playing better.

Asher99
02-15-2012, 11:45 PM
I'm intrigued by the theory. Is it Tyler? He's the only one that doesn't seem to be part of gang at times.

I'm sure he's plays a part in it, but I think its West or Danny they both are the outspoken leaders and at times have played badly. Hard to get on others when you have some flaws as well.

Hicks
02-15-2012, 11:45 PM
I honestly think we'll be fine eventually.

Get Danny and especially Hill healthy. Give one of the best coaching staffs in the league time to fully adjust to the X's and O's side of our problems. Let the increased depth of a healthy top 7 lower the minutes of our players and contribute towards getting more wind in our sales.

I think as those all start to fall into place, we'll start winning more than we lose again; I really do.

The question is when. Well, last I knew we should have both of those guys back no later than the end of the month/start of March, so I'm just going to try my best to wait it out until after the All-Star break. I think next month will exorcise these demons and get this 'train' back on the right 'track'.

Just hold on until we get through these next couple of week or so; I don't think the sky is falling.

Asher99
02-15-2012, 11:47 PM
I will save my theory of a player I think may be the one breaking the chemistry for later when I am not so pessimistic (It's probably not who you think) *Hint it's not Lance*.

Hope you drop it on us soon since you got all of our interests peaked.

Hoop
02-15-2012, 11:47 PM
I hope it's not any one player. It's fine for us fans to point fingers and play the blame game, but when players on the team start pointing fingers.......game over.

OakMoses
02-15-2012, 11:50 PM
I've always been worried that there's a huge leadership void on this team that extended beyond the roster and into the coaching staff. I was hoping Brian Shaw and David West might fix this. Now I'm again worried that the only true leader involved with this team is the man who put it all together.

Sookie
02-15-2012, 11:51 PM
I honestly think we'll be fine eventually.

Get Danny and especially Hill healthy. Give one of the best coaching staffs in the league time to fully adjust to the X's and O's side of our problems. Let the increased depth of a healthy top 7 lower the minutes of our players and contribute towards getting more wind in our sales.

I think as those all start to fall into place, we'll start winning more than we lose again; I really do.

The question is when. Well, last I knew we should have both of those guys back no later than the end of the month/start of March, so I'm just going to try my best to wait it out until after the All-Star break. I think next month will exorcise these demons and get this 'train' back on the right 'track'.

Just hold on until we get through these next couple of week or so; I don't think the sky is falling.

You know, I'm starting to think Hill really is an issue.

At first I didn't, because the bench was playing terrible before Hill was injured, and has actually been quite a bit better as of late. The starters seemed to be the problem.

But Hill as an individual is a different animal. He's like a sixth starter. PG has a lot of pressure on him, and it used to be that when he played poorly, Hill would just come in, and take the pressure off of him. Lance has put in a lot of effort and energy, but he can't defend or make shots like Hill can, so a lot more pressure is on PG.

edit: I think Vogel is a clear leader as a coach. From players saying they'd run through a brick wall for him, and from the adjustments in the third quarter. That said, he's a first year coach, and deserves a bit of leeway and time to learn how to deal with things. Two weeks ago, we were discussing him possibly being COY.

Hicks
02-16-2012, 12:07 AM
I wasn't quick to decide that I thought I was watching a contender out on the floor, so I'm sure as hell not going to rush to the lifeboats of this allegedly sinking ship now, either. Fans can be so... fussy.

Bball
02-16-2012, 12:08 AM
Well, since the other night Quinn mentioned West wanting the ball more and saying something after a game, then I'll just extrapolate from there and guess West is who Peck is thinking of.

When Quinn said it I took it to be a positive thing because I got the feeling he felt the players needed to utilize West more himself.... But maybe it grew from that... and maybe the older vet isn't in the mood for the younger players' ideas.... and the younger guys take it more as wanting him some more 'me' than thinking of the team.

But I'm just guessing....

beast23
02-16-2012, 12:46 AM
Congrats, Peck.

I do believe you may have started a witch hunt.

vnzla81
02-16-2012, 12:52 AM
Well, since the other night Quinn mentioned West wanting the ball more and saying something after a game, then I'll just extrapolate from there and guess West is who Peck is thinking of.

When Quinn said it I took it to be a positive thing because I got the feeling he felt the players needed to utilize West more himself.... But maybe it grew from that... and maybe the older vet isn't in the mood for the younger players' ideas.... and the younger guys take it more as wanting him some more 'me' than thinking of the team.

But I'm just guessing....

West was looking at DC like he wanted to kill him today, he had the ball in his hands and keep looking back at DC he looked mad.

Pingu
02-16-2012, 12:54 AM
I'll tell you which player is causing chemistry problems: George Hill, because he's out. That messes up the team chemistry.

Peck
02-16-2012, 12:56 AM
I already regret posting that.

I need to remember to not post these things till hours after a game when I am more collected.

vnzla81
02-16-2012, 12:58 AM
I already regret posting that.

You can make it stop by telling us who is the guy ;)

Sookie
02-16-2012, 01:01 AM
Sorry, I shouldn't have posted that to go along with your comment, but I was going to say it at some point anyway, as it was on my mind.

vnzla81
02-16-2012, 01:05 AM
I'll tell you which player is causing chemistry problems: George Hill, because he's out. That messes up the team chemistry.

The Pacers problem is way bigger than just George Hil or Jeff Foster or Josh or Dunleavy or Rush or any other bench player.

Bball
02-16-2012, 01:09 AM
I already regret posting that.

I need to remember to not post these things till hours after a game when I am more collected.

I thought you were wanting to see if any of us had picked up on something/someone and didn't want to bias the discussion until the peanut gallery had chimed in...

AesopRockOn
02-16-2012, 01:22 AM
This worst thing about this losing streak is that I've watched only like one of the games. I'm not going back to LPBB after the game and seeing what went wrong. After the first quarter of games I've stopped checking the score. I'm taking it for granted that we will play poorly and probably lose. This feeling hasn't happened since the few games before JOB was canned. I'm definitely being fussy, but this team is in a bad place right now.

Peck
02-16-2012, 01:24 AM
The Pacers problem is way bigger than just George Hil or Jeff Foster or Josh or Dunleavy or Rush or any other bench player.

It's also bigger than trading Danny Granger for Monta Ellis as well, which once again you are on that kick for some reason.

vnzla81
02-16-2012, 01:33 AM
It's also bigger than trading Danny Granger for Monta Ellis as well, which once again you are on that kick for some reason.

I've never say that trading Danny for him would fix all the issues.

Edit: now I see what are you talking about, I was just having a conversation with an NBA writer on twitter, he always answers my questions and he was saying something related to Monta.

MrHale
02-16-2012, 02:17 AM
i just wish West wouldnt yell and one after every contact shot down low. he thinks he gets fouled everytime, gets real annoying.

beast23
02-16-2012, 02:20 AM
Folks keep talking about getting a scorer that is capable creating for himself. And, I have to admit, I have been down that path as well.

But that just won't do it. Getting that scorer will help some, but it is simply not enough. That will not make Granger, Hibbert, West nor anyone else on the floor better.

The only way you make all these other players better is to acquire a player that is able to deliver them the ball surely and accurately where and when they need it.

And less face it, I'd rather find ways to improve the play of everyone on the team as opposed to just adding one good player that can score.

So, I've come around to thinking the way that some of you have been thinking for quite some time. If we want to see the most marked improvement in the players that we already have, then provide them with a PG that is a much better creator than the ones we already have.

Our biggest need is not a scorer. It is a player that can make all of our present players better and more efficient scorers.

vnzla81
02-16-2012, 02:25 AM
Folks keep talking about getting a scorer that is capable creating for himself. And, I have to admit, I have been down that path as well.

But that just won't do it. Getting that scorer will help some, but it is simply not enough. That will not make Granger, Hibbert, West nor anyone else on the floor better.

The only way you make all these other players better is to acquire a player that is able to deliver them the ball surely and accurately where and when they need it.

And less face it, I'd rather find ways to improve the play of everyone on the team as opposed to just adding one good player that can score.

So, I've come around to thinking the way that some of you have been thinking for quite some time. If we want to see the most marked improvement in the players that we already have, then provide them with a PG that is a much better creator than the ones we already have.

Our biggest need is not a scorer. It is a player that can make all of our present players better and more efficient scorers.

Wow welcome to the dark side ;)

MrHale
02-16-2012, 02:25 AM
Folks keep talking about getting a scorer that is capable creating for himself. And, I have to admit, I have been down that path as well.

But that just won't do it. Getting that scorer will help some, but it is simply not enough. That will not make Granger, Hibbert, West nor anyone else on the floor better.

The only way you make all these other players better is to acquire a player that is able to deliver them the ball surely and accurately where and when they need it.

And less face it, I'd rather find ways to improve the play of everyone on the team as opposed to just adding one good player that can score.

So, I've come around to thinking the way that some of you have been thinking for quite some time. If we want to see the most marked improvement in the players that we already have, then provide them with a PG that is a much better creator than the ones we already have.

Our biggest need is not a scorer. It is a player that can make all of our present players better and more efficient scorers.

Monta or Nash can fit the bill. both can do each of those things quite well. if we have a chance to get either of them id do it.

Kemo
02-16-2012, 02:27 AM
I posted this in the postgame thread, but wanted to repeat my thoughts here..



I am not sure what ails the team right now...
But I have my own theories..

I believe that the way this team is set up, is like a finely tuned machine...
When 1 or 2 of the important "cogs" to the team is out , that the whole machine starts to break down... offensively, and more important, DEFENSIVELY...
I mean come on, we were top 6 in the whole NBA on defense .. up untill the last 6 or 7 games... and moreso, ever since Hill got injured....

The other thing, since our "machine" has broken down,on the offensive end, everyone is playing scared , seemingly not trusting in each other, resorting to playing more "me ball" instead of making the extra pass , running the play to get a good shot..

As a result to all the above, AND this string of losses, I think what has happened is the proverbial "rookie wall" of sorts... But instead of it happening to a rookie PLAYER, it is happening to a rookie coach and a young team... Add in the psychological aspect, and I believe that is what we are seeing happen..

I truly believe we will get through this , and by the first week of March we will be able to put this string of losses behind us and get back to playing like we should be...

..

CJ Jones
02-16-2012, 03:37 AM
So, I've come around to thinking the way that some of you have been thinking for quite some time. If we want to see the most marked improvement in the players that we already have, then provide them with a PG that is a much better creator than the ones we already have.

Our biggest need is not a scorer. It is a player that can make all of our present players better and more efficient scorers.

<a href="http://senorgif.memebase.com/2011/04/24/funny-gifs-lets-go-see-the-wizard/?utm_source=embed&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=sharewidget"><img class='event-item-lol-image' src='http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/wereofftoseethewizardp1.gif' title="Lets go see the Wizard Gif - Lets go see the Wizard!" alt="Lets go see the Wizard Gif - Lets go see the Wizard!" height="236px" width="312px" /></a><br />see more <a href="http://senorgif.memebase.com?utm_source=embed&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=sharewidget">Gifs</a>

j/k... Seriously though, I think all of our guys scoring goes up with an Andre Miller type PG. To win a ring with the way the teams currently constructed though, I think we need a top flight PG.

spazzxb
02-16-2012, 03:44 AM
They better be able to defend as well.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

FireTheCoach
02-16-2012, 05:20 AM
Folks keep talking about getting a scorer that is capable creating for himself. And, I have to admit, I have been down that path as well.

But that just won't do it. Getting that scorer will help some, but it is simply not enough. That will not make Granger, Hibbert, West nor anyone else on the floor better.

The only way you make all these other players better is to acquire a player that is able to deliver them the ball surely and accurately where and when they need it.

And less face it, I'd rather find ways to improve the play of everyone on the team as opposed to just adding one good player that can score.

So, I've come around to thinking the way that some of you have been thinking for quite some time. If we want to see the most marked improvement in the players that we already have, then provide them with a PG that is a much better creator than the ones we already have.

Our biggest need is not a scorer. It is a player that can make all of our present players better and more efficient scorers.

You sir are correct... pretty much exactly what I was thinking of posting last night but was too lazy to do.

McKeyFan
02-16-2012, 05:32 AM
He seems to be frustrated almost all of the time imo. Likely because no one on this team seems to be able to get him the ball in the places he needs it.

This.

West is not causing the chemistry problems, he is just the one starting to scream help.

I rewinded a play last night where West got upset after a shot clock violation. It was yet another instance where Collison dribbles, dribbles, and waits until single digits on the clock before someone else gets the ball.

I've speculated in another thread that our losing streak is not the loss of George Hill's play itself, but his ability to halfway decently distribute and keep guys happy with touches in the right place. That has fallen apart.

Asher99
02-16-2012, 05:43 AM
I think it's Danny. I think he got upset when Vogel let him set for 20 minutes when he was red hot the other night.

He also skipped out on talking to the media after that game. Wells said it was maybe the 5th time's he ever done that in his career so he was clearly upset.

DaveP63
02-16-2012, 05:56 AM
GHill or Collison. Maybe both.

Sparhawk
02-16-2012, 06:12 AM
Folks keep talking about getting a scorer that is capable creating for himself. And, I have to admit, I have been down that path as well.

But that just won't do it. Getting that scorer will help some, but it is simply not enough. That will not make Granger, Hibbert, West nor anyone else on the floor better.

The only way you make all these other players better is to acquire a player that is able to deliver them the ball surely and accurately where and when they need it.

And less face it, I'd rather find ways to improve the play of everyone on the team as opposed to just adding one good player that can score.

So, I've come around to thinking the way that some of you have been thinking for quite some time. If we want to see the most marked improvement in the players that we already have, then provide them with a PG that is a much better creator than the ones we already have.

Our biggest need is not a scorer. It is a player that can make all of our present players better and more efficient scorers.

Nash or Rondo.

Sparhawk
02-16-2012, 06:18 AM
I'd love to try and pry Reggie Jackson away from the Thunder.

Bball
02-16-2012, 07:07 AM
I think Peck is referring to Boomer. He broke the backboard at the HS gym and became a YouTube sensation and it's went to his head.

D-BONE
02-16-2012, 07:31 AM
The ingredients are not complicated...

1) Consistent effort and intensity
2) Defend
3) Rebound
4) Offensive movement (ball and player)

How can we have swung so 180 on these things we succeeded in the first part of the season?

1) Team chemistry?
2) Coaching?
3) Some early luck/taking advantage of opponents' slow, post-lockout start
4) Teams have adjusted to us and we have failed to adjust to the adjustments (both coaching and playing)?
5) Injuries?

Certainly it's probably some of all. The question that remains to be seen over this pre-ASB stretch, IMO, is do we have the personnel/talent, coaching chops, and intestinal fortitude to start moving this back in the right direction?

I think we should see progress in that direction before the ASB despite injury returns given the alleged level of opponents. Plus, injuries are part of game, so we need to learn how to maintain a semblance of decent play when they inevitably occur.

EDIT: NJ would be a good place to start. Show in a b 2 b 2 b situation that you can overcome some adversity. That's what it's going to take. If you want to be a legit NBA competitor, you've got to show the will to overcome obstacles. When will this happen for us, if at all? Just man up is all they have to do. And no more f-ing proclamations in the press like "must win" blah, blah, blah. Dont say it. Just go DO it!

QuickRelease
02-16-2012, 07:38 AM
The Pacers problem is way bigger than just George Hil or Jeff Foster or Josh or Dunleavy or Rush or any other bench player.

I don't think it's too much bigger than George Hill. We're leaning pretty heavily on players that are, in reality, 3rd level players. It's the reason we went out to get George Hill in the first place. He just fits better. I like Lance, Price, Jones in spot duty roles, with Gill getting the bulk of the bench time at the guard position.

Johanvil
02-16-2012, 08:21 AM
I swear that by the time Hill comes back,some of the guys here will have hyped his return right up there with the second coming.
Thing is are we a better team with Hill or without him?Of course is the former.Will he change the whole dynamic of the team and get this train back on track?I seriously doubt it because you can clearly see this is a collective collapse and not a player's one.

OakMoses
02-16-2012, 08:26 AM
edit: I think Vogel is a clear leader as a coach. From players saying they'd run through a brick wall for him, and from the adjustments in the third quarter. That said, he's a first year coach, and deserves a bit of leeway and time to learn how to deal with things. Two weeks ago, we were discussing him possibly being COY.

They may be individually willing to run through brick walls for him, but right now they're not collectively trying very hard to win basketball games for him.

I think Vogel has a ton of potential as a coach and that he's a pretty good coach right now. I just don't think he has the resume or the presence to say to guys "jump on my back and we'll get through this" when things go to crap.

FWIW, the blame lies with the players far more than with Vogel, but if Greg Popovich were our coach, I'd feel much more confident right now.

BillS
02-16-2012, 09:46 AM
I felt like the team came out after the half much more focused at the defensive end. Had they put out that effort from the beginning of the game we might be singing a different tune right now.

I'm going to be very interested to see how they come out of the gates against NJ tonight.

Overall, though, it isn't going to be fixed solely by playing defense with energy. If we don't stop missing bunny shots and free throws we could hold teams to below 75 and still lose.

Since86
02-16-2012, 09:48 AM
Overall, though, it isn't going to be fixed solely by playing defense with energy. If we don't stop missing bunny shots and free throws we could hold teams to below 75 and still lose.

It's still a better decision than to try and freely score with teams. If you can't score offensively, and you're giving up 60points in the first half, you've already lost by half time.

Making it into the 4th quarter in a defensive struggle would atleast give them the opportunity to win.

Unclebuck
02-16-2012, 09:52 AM
I honestly think we'll be fine eventually.

Get Danny and especially Hill healthy. Give one of the best coaching staffs in the league time to fully adjust to the X's and O's side of our problems. Let the increased depth of a healthy top 7 lower the minutes of our players and contribute towards getting more wind in our sales.

I think as those all start to fall into place, we'll start winning more than we lose again; I really do.

The question is when. Well, last I knew we should have both of those guys back no later than the end of the month/start of March, so I'm just going to try my best to wait it out until after the All-Star break. I think next month will exorcise these demons and get this 'train' back on the right 'track'.

Just hold on until we get through these next couple of week or so; I don't think the sky is falling.


I agree 100% for now. If this goes on for another week or two, then I might start to think differently. NBA teams go through stretches where they struggle, things often look the darkest just before they get better.

I do wish the whole team, coaches, ball boys, players all had two days off, then about 10 days of training camp type practices and then continue the season after those 12 or 13 days. (of course probably every team in the NBA would want to do the same exact thing)

Remember teams are not allowed to practice during the allstar break - actually only 1 practice Monday evening after the AS game .

RWB
02-16-2012, 10:08 AM
If we don't stop missing bunny shots and free throws we could hold teams to below 75 and still lose.

+ a thousand times!!!!!! No concentration on free throws what so ever and the irritating thing is we're not talking fourth quarter I'm so dead tired free throws. :mad:

BillS
02-16-2012, 10:25 AM
It's still a better decision than to try and freely score with teams. If you can't score offensively, and you're giving up 60points in the first half, you've already lost by half time.

Making it into the 4th quarter in a defensive struggle would atleast give them the opportunity to win.

Oh, yeah, definitely agree a defensive struggle with an opportunity to come back in the 4th is better than what we have now.

However, having a lead on 40% shooting while defending well would be even better :sunshine:

imbtyler
02-16-2012, 10:43 AM
Bring in Steve Nash. Do pretty much whatever it takes without losing Hill, George, Granger, or Roy. DC, Hansbro, Dahntay, they're all expendable. We need to make moves now. If we send out draft picks, try to get some in return. You never know what those can turn into later.

Justin Tyme
02-16-2012, 11:44 AM
Huh? Now why would it be him?

I like Granger, but the last few years he seems to have a chippy attitude and a darkside to me. Hope I'm wrong.

What year was Granger an Allstar?

Justin Tyme
02-16-2012, 11:50 AM
I wasn't quick to decide that I thought I was watching a contender out on the floor, so I'm sure as hell not going to rush to the lifeboats of this allegedly sinking ship now, either.

Fans can be so... fussy.


I believe the word that best describes fans is FICKLE.

Justin Tyme
02-16-2012, 11:54 AM
It's also bigger than trading Danny Granger for Monta Ellis as well, which once again you are on that kick for some reason.


Ask him why he didn't bring up Monta's game last nite? ;)

vnzla81
02-16-2012, 12:04 PM
Ask him why he didn't bring up Monta's game last nite? ;)

I did in another thread, Mark Jackson was running the "hot hand" in Nate until the "hot hand" burned his a** and lost the game for him.

Justin Tyme
02-16-2012, 12:53 PM
I swear that by the time Hill comes back,some of the guys here will have hyped his return right up there with the second coming.
Thing is are we a better team with Hill or without him?Of course is the former.Will he change the whole dynamic of the team and get this train back on track?I seriously doubt it because you can clearly see this is a collective collapse and not a player's one.


Nail meet hammer.

Hill isn't what's going to save this team. It goes further and deeper than Hill being injured. The absence of Hill doesn't cause mental lapses, TO, poor reb, etc . If it did, he'd have to play 48 min to make sure these types of things don't happen. He didn't b4, and this team was winning when he wasn't in ther game.

Since86
02-16-2012, 12:58 PM
I did in another thread, Mark Jackson was running the "hot hand" in Nate until the "hot hand" burned his a** and lost the game for him.

That explains why he didn't sub him in for Nate. But Curry and Thompson, along with Rush, were all in the game at that time. Why didn't he sub him in for one of those two?

Especially Thompson. I didn't watch the entire game, only the 4th, but he wasn't shooting good then. Now looking at the box score it shows he wasn't shooting good at all.

Curry also put up a stinker.

Justin Tyme
02-16-2012, 12:59 PM
It's still a better decision than to try and freely score with teams. If you can't score offensively, and you're giving up 60points in the first half, you've already lost by half time.

Making it into the 4th quarter in a defensive struggle would atleast give them the opportunity to win.



There was a time if the Pacers got behind I never doubted they wouldn't win. That feeling is gone. Now, I wonder when they get down if they can keep the loss to a minumum.

vnzla81
02-16-2012, 01:23 PM
That explains why he didn't sub him in for Nate. But Curry and Thompson, along with Rush, were all in the game at that time. Why didn't he sub him in for one of those two?

Especially Thompson. I didn't watch the entire game, only the 4th, but he wasn't shooting good then. Now looking at the box score it shows he wasn't shooting good at all.

Curry also put up a stinker.

Yeah Curry and him were not shooting well at all, Monta was actually letting everybody else play last night and David Lee was on fire so they were giving Lee the ball, then Nate got on fire in the 4th quarter and Mark decided to keep him until the end even if it meant to keep Monta on the bench and let Crawford score on Nate at will, then Mark gave the ball to Nate in the last second to win or tie the game and tipical of Nate he turned the ball over for the clock to expired.


Regarding Thompson and Rush I don't know what Mark was doing, you could see that he was just throwing crap at the wall to see what could work, everybody on twitter didn't know what happened yesterday.

graphic-er
02-16-2012, 01:23 PM
There was a time if the Pacers got behind I never doubted they wouldn't win. That feeling is gone. Now, I wonder when they get down if they can keep the loss to a minumum.

That is precisely why i am not attending tonights game. I'll watch from home. I'm not spending the time and resources to make it downtown to watch them trot out some futile effort to beat the Nets. i dont' mind if my team loses, but giving craptacular effort while doing so....well I can only watch that in person so much. I'll be back at the fieldhouse on Sunday or Tuesday.

Trader Joe
02-16-2012, 02:12 PM
West is the last player I would suspect at causing chemistry issues.

And if he is then the rest of the team needs to sack up. Just my opinion though...West has only been regarded as a pro's pro by nearly everyone else in the league

Trader Joe
02-16-2012, 02:18 PM
I don't like the body language I've been seeing from Roy and Paul. I know that's not going to be popular to pick on those two, but they seem distant or something I can't figure it out. Maybe they started believing too many of their own press clippings? I'm not sure.

I know Roy has been taken out of position a lot defensively, but what's Paul's excuse? He's been utterly terrible one defense for this entire 5 game stretch.

Sookie
02-16-2012, 02:23 PM
And if he is then the rest of the team needs to sack up. Just my opinion though...West has only been regarded as a pro's pro by nearly everyone else in the league

If he's not causing chemistry issues in the locker room, his play is causing issues on the team.

I said before, Danny and West are supposed to be the team's leaders. And Danny and David are completely disregarding the defensive side of the ball for their offense.

He's been, absolutely pathetic defensively - and rebounding. More so than any other player. But Quinn said he wanted more shots on offense?

I liked David at first, and maybe what I'm seeing on the court is simply a reaction to something going on in the locker room, instead of the cause. But if he brought some defensive intensity to the game, I always figured the younger guys would follow.

If he's supposed to be a leader, why hasn't DWest put his arm around Roy and tried to give him a little confidence? I've seen Dahntay do that for every single one of the bench players. Heck, I've seen AJ do that for Lance and Tyler. What are Danny and DWest doing? Why hasn't he picked up his energy, his defense, his rebounding, instead of being the worst offender?

So sure, maybe he is a calming force in the locker room. Maybe it's one of the other starters...but I'd expect him to take charge and be more of a leader instead of..what we are seeing.

As much as we can't win with Roy pouting and PG off in LaLa land, the team really starts with David and Danny. Our vets. And when those two aren't defending, aren't rebounding, aren't bringing energy - everything that is supposed to be the essence of smashball, I have to point at them first.

BillS
02-16-2012, 02:38 PM
That is precisely why i am not attending tonights game. I'll watch from home. I'm not spending the time and resources to make it downtown to watch them trot out some futile effort to beat the Nets. i dont' mind if my team loses, but giving craptacular effort while doing so....well I can only watch that in person so much. I'll be back at the fieldhouse on Sunday or Tuesday.

Wow.

I haven't even got the words to express the derision I feel for this post.

I think this falls into the category "we've established what you are, now we're just haggling over the price."

graphic-er
02-16-2012, 04:23 PM
Wow.

I haven't even got the words to express the derision I feel for this post.

I think this falls into the category "we've established what you are, now we're just haggling over the price."

I don't get your contempt for me, and I don't appreciate your insult.

Don't' you think the fans deserve more than the effort they are putting forth? Its one thing to lose to a better team, its another to not even compete. We have seen this **** poor effort level 3 times in the last 5 games. Why should I be compelled to go downtown and watch that? They already got my money on tickets, but they won't be getting my money on Parking and concessions.

Its not the most effective protest, but its one that makes me feel better right now. So please keep your snide *** comments to yourself.

CableKC
02-17-2012, 01:20 PM
I will save my theory of a player I think may be the one breaking the chemistry for later when I am not so pessimistic (It's probably not who you think) *Hint it's not Lance*.
I may have missed it...but after the Nets win...I'm guessing that you are not as pessimistic anymore.

Did you ever get around to telling us your theory on who maybe the Player that you think may have been creating problems in Team Chemistry?

Peck
02-17-2012, 01:27 PM
I may have missed it...but after the Nets win...I'm guessing that you are not as pessimistic anymore.

Did you ever get around to telling us your theory on who maybe the Player that you think may have been creating problems in Team Chemistry?

No I didn't.

After posting that I immediately regretted it & should have taken it out.

The reason for my regret was that this was a conversation that I probably read to much into & after reading the article today I think it is moot now anyway.

I'll just say this, for 100% certain it was not Lance Stephenson.

But that is why I need to wait for a cooling down period before I do one of these. I am just a fan like everybody else and I tend to get to high or to low in the heat of the battle, once I step away for awhile I can look at it with more objectivity.

vnzla81
02-17-2012, 01:42 PM
No I didn't.

After posting that I immediately regretted it & should have taken it out.

The reason for my regret was that this was a conversation that I probably read to much into & after reading the article today I think it is moot now anyway.

I'll just say this, for 100% certain it was not Lance Stephenson.

But that is why I need to wait for a cooling down period before I do one of these. I am just a fan like everybody else and I tend to get to high or to low in the heat of the battle, once I step away for awhile I can look at it with more objectivity.

Are you sure about that? :D

CableKC
02-17-2012, 02:04 PM
No I didn't.

After posting that I immediately regretted it & should have taken it out.

The reason for my regret was that this was a conversation that I probably read to much into & after reading the article today I think it is moot now anyway.

I'll just say this, for 100% certain it was not Lance Stephenson.

But that is why I need to wait for a cooling down period before I do one of these. I am just a fan like everybody else and I tend to get to high or to low in the heat of the battle, once I step away for awhile I can look at it with more objectivity.
Okay...excuse me while I try to put the lid back on this proverbial "can of worms" that I re-opened.

I'm guessing that you can tuck this away under the "You will revisit this next time we hit a rough patch" category :chin:

I assume that you will be paying more attention to this Player going forward to see if your theory pans out. ;)