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Peck
02-15-2012, 02:18 AM
In all honesty I didn’t want to do one of these tonight. I just don’t want to add to what I’m sure is already an overwhelming display of negativity and doom and gloom. To continue with my honesty I will admit to something. We got up and left at the end of the 3rd quarter which is the earliest we’ve left a game in a long long time. Actually we debated leaving somewhere in the 2nd quarter but I made us stick it out till when we left.

I don’t even know where to begin or what to say. This was as bad of basketball that we have played since, well the last time we played the Heat.

Let’s just say it now, until further notice the Miami Heat are our Lords & Masters. Not only can we not beat them apparently we can not even compete with them. That was the worst part about the game, from about 3 min. into the game it was over. If a game could have been called after the 1st quarter this one was certainly eligible.

Look there is nothing wrong with losing to the Heat; lots of teams lose to the Heat. But to not even compete is just, well it’s disheartening from a fan standpoint and downright disgusting from anybody’s standpoint.

So this is two home games that they have had large crowds for and gone out and played like absolute garbage. Hard to get on the locals about not coming to the games when 4 of the last 6 home games have resulted on losses and the 2 wins were by the skin of our teeth against a less than stellar team (Nets) and a team finishing up a huge road trip (Utah).

I said this after Denver, we haven’t played a good game since we beat Dallas and after tonight I am actually now one step beyond worried. Tonight for certain it’s not the loss but the way we lost and the lack of competitive spirit we displayed for the game.

Whenever I look at a problem from the team I usually start with the defensive end of the floor and tonight there were so many problems I don’t even know where to begin. Our defensive rotations in general lately have been late or non existent but it was really exasperated by the Heat offense. They would rotate the ball and often times their players were hitting wide open 10-15’ jump shots. But then when they weren’t doing that they were strolling to the rim as though nobody was there, which tonight nobody was.

Not to be outdone by lousy defense our rebounding was beyond pathetic. How bad was our rebounding? Darren Collison led us with 7 rebounds, that’s how bad it was. If it wasn’t so damn sad it would have been comical. We would let one guy go for offensive rebounds so we could get back and cover the breaks. Which is sound strategy with one small exception; we never stopped the transition baskets.

We have gotten so far from what got us to our winning record that it’s sad. Defense, offensive rebounding, rebounding in general, getting to the free throw line and working harder than every other team was what made us what we were. It was called smash mouth basketball and right now that seems like a lifetime ago.

Our next game vs. the Cavaliers is almost a no win game for this team. Win and while it will stop the bleeding nobody is going to be overly happy about it because you are supposed to win. Lose on the other hand and I think Pacer fans will go from concerned to apocalyptic, which I’m sure there are already several people yelling to blow it up or tank.

We’re not there; we’re not even close to there. So those of you who are already looking at the future draft I’m here to tell you that this team is not done. We still are a winning team and have a playoff berth.

But by the same token any sane Pacers fan can look out there right now and see that there has been a fundamental shift in the way we have played over the past few weeks. People who are concerned are not wrong to be that way. This loss while only just one loss was troubling in so many ways. Not competing is never good, they were on the 3rd game in 3 nights, and we’ve had 3 days of rest. That is another troubling thing, after the Denver game so many of us were saying & frankly I convinced myself as well, that the team was just exhausted, run down and out of energy. We needed time off. We got it, it didn’t matter.

We came out lifeless, listless and just provided no form of resistance to Miami at all.

When you have one or two players you can put your finger on then you look at one or two players. When you have a total collapse of a system or team, well again I hate to do it, but you have to look at coaching. Something has changed over the past few weeks. It may just be Hill, but I doubt it. George Hill playing or not playing doesn’t make one bit of difference in this game, it might have in all of the other losses but not this one.

Somehow both our offense & defense have changed. Frank made a point of telling us early on that our offense was designed to get two big men at the basket to help with offensive rebounding, that is now all but gone. I have faith that he can turn this around but right now they have to look at what they are running and maybe even who they are running.

Ok, I’ll try and look at the players but again being honest here I did not see the 4th quarter.

Dahntay Jones is a gamer. I’ll take 12 Dahntay Jones on the roster and go against anybody. He’s not afraid of any player and treated LeBron James as though he were James Jones. No he didn’t stop LeBron or even really affect him but he played hard against him and never backed down and tried desperately to spark any kind of offense without being out of control. He needs to work on boxing out on the glass a little bit but as a backup small forward I have no complaints for him at all.

Danny Granger rolled his ego at the end of the 1st quarter went to the locker room and did not return. His ego is day to day at this point.

David West did not have the great game his offensive statistics are going to imply. Frankly speaking for a starting power forward to play 25 min. and grab 2 rebounds is beyond nauseating. His help side defense is non existent and frankly his man to man defense wasn’t good either. Now he did attack Miami and did get his offensive groove going better than almost anyone on our team. But don’t let the fact that he led us in scoring fool you into thinking he had a good game, he did not.

Roy Hibbert didn’t shoot a single free throw. Now honestly it’s hard to play Miami because yes the referee’s tend to give them every benefit of the doubt and never seem to call them for obvious things. But you have to also take it at them and make the refs. either make the call or make it so obvious that even the NBA has to question the calls. Roy did not do that tonight. Now again to Roy’s credit it is very possible that Joel Anthony is the leader from the Hulk Comic books (look him up to see his huge head and tell me they are not one and the same) so he might outsmart Roy and everybody else. But Roy has recently gone back to being Mr. Pushover in the post as well. No more do we see Roy backing down the opponents big man for that 2-3’ hook shot. Now he is just flipping it up from 4-5’ and sometimes just missing it right at the rim. But it is on the defensive side of the floor we are missing Roy the most right now. Gone are the days of him getting tough contested rebounds, gone is the shot blocking presence that we had (although he got 2 tonight I don’t think he is intimidating anyone anymore from going in there).

Paul George just played poorly. His shot was off and sadly it was not because of Miami’s defense. He was just missing wide open shots. Sometimes that happens so we can live with that. But the 6 turnovers were a little much.

Darren Collison played worse than poorly. I don’t know if this is by design (God I hope it is not) or if Darren is just so bad at defense sometimes that opposing point guards routinely get right at the rim vs. our club. It’s like he can’t keep them in front of him. It happens so often though that I haven’t wondered if they aren’t trying to set some interior trapping defense that just fails to materialize because our power forwards just don’t rotate fast enough. But then surely to God Frank is not that dumb. I don’t know though, it happens a lot.

Tyler Hansbrough is a mystery to me. The mystery to me is why have we been cutting back his time 3-4 min. a game? Tonight for example he only played 19 min. and in that time he got 3 less points and 2 more rebounds than West. Neither of them are what you would call the Gary Payton of the power forward position on defense so this is really kind of mystery to me why Tyler has gone down this much. If anything Roy probably shouldn’t have played as much. Oh who am I kidding in this game it didn’t really matter. But overall I know he had a slump that was extended but he seems past that, yet we still are only giving him the min. he got when he was slumping. Not sure what is up there.

In the short time Lance & A.J. played when I was there they both did ok. Nothing great nothing so bad that I want to scream about either.

Look we all need to probably just take a nice cleansing deep breath here. We can regroup and get this team headed back in the right direction without making major changes.

But the team can not and I repeat can NOT come out and play like that at home again the rest of the season. Losing is bad, but it’s the NBA people understand that nobody has a perfect season. But nobody is happy about laying down any kind of hard earned money and see that kind of effort.


http://www.green-leads.com/Portals/53598/images/B2B%20Appointment%20Setting%20Can%20You%20Take%20t he%20Heat.jpg

Hicks
02-15-2012, 02:40 AM
I have to start wondering about four things:

1) Are many of our players just mentally weak?
2) Did something happen with our locker room chemistry?
3) Is this the coaching staff?
4) Is it mostly just '**** happens' and nothing big actually happened to cause these changes?

I'm not the quickest to point to number one, and I don't believe in going there just because players have bad games, but when there's just not much sense of fight, I start to wonder more.

Peck
02-15-2012, 02:46 AM
I have to start wondering about four things:

1) Are many of our players just mentally weak?
2) Did something happen with our locker room chemistry?
3) Is this the coaching staff?
4) Is it mostly just '**** happens' and nothing big actually happened to cause these changes?

I'm not the quickest to point to number one, and I don't believe in going there just because players have bad games, but when there's just not much sense of fight, I start to wonder more.

There is another option IMO as well.

5) Other teams have adjusted to our early season style of play.

Unless of course you just mean tonights game. Then in that case I think it is a combination of 1 & 4. We just can't play the Heat. It is down right embarassing playing the Heat and I think Danny get's mentally affected playing against LeBron.

But really, your guess is as good as mine. I have no idea what is going on here.

rexnom
02-15-2012, 02:46 AM
How about we got a lot of lucky breaks early in the season (see low point differential), lost George Hill, didn't get the breaks, and then didn't have the depth to make up for it.

Also, the Heat are definitely just better than us. We're built to beat the Bulls, not the Heat.

Bball
02-15-2012, 03:00 AM
I've wondered something a little from out in left field... We had a lot of dustups over the course of several games for a while. Didn't back down from anyone. I kind of wonder if the league, Simon, someone in a position of power didn't tell the team to watch the chippiness... And maybe that has affected the mojo.

vnzla81
02-15-2012, 03:01 AM
I think we knew that was going to be impossible to keep winning games while shooting a horrible percentage, it was expected for teams to pick it up including us, the problem has been that teams are starting to shoot better and we are still shooting the same percentage.

Our defense in the beginning was also overrated by us playing bad teams that were also shooting bad giving us false defensive stats, there are many games were we got lucky because of the many open jumpers the other team missed.

Looking around the NBA it looks to me like the teams that were supposed to be at the top are getting better by the day and the surprising teams like us(Utah,Philly,Denver) are getting a reality check.

PGisthefuture
02-15-2012, 03:09 AM
I honestly think teams have simply adjusted to our early, successful style of play. Which is basically feed it to Roy Hibbert early in the shot clock and if it's not there kick it out to a shooter or find the slashing guy. We also run pick-n-rolls and they almost never work. That is basically our offensive game and I think teams have figured it out. If we want to get farther than the first or second round this year we are simply going to have to make a move of some sort. The question is when will Larry pull the trigger on such a move...?

CableKC
02-15-2012, 03:09 AM
How about we got a lot of lucky breaks early in the season (see low point differential), lost George Hill, didn't get the breaks, and then didn't have the depth to make up for it.

Also, the Heat are definitely just better than us. We're built to beat the Bulls, not the Heat.
I'm leaning towards this and the notion that we have a deep bench was "fool's gold".....we are only 6 deep.

PGisthefuture
02-15-2012, 03:11 AM
I'm leaning towards this and the notion that we have a deep bench was "fool's gold".....we are only 6 deep.

7 deep on a good night. This is why a move must be made.

Asher99
02-15-2012, 03:39 AM
Tyler and Hill were basically the bench early. Now Hill is out and Tyler's usage is hit or miss getting tons of shots in a short time or nothing for extended time IE 1 first half shot in each of the last 3 games, after 3 games of heavy usage and production after a game he got 1 shot the whole game.

We are now 3-6 without Hill and 8 of those games also happen to be Tyler's lowest 8 games of PT and we're 2-6 in those. These two are also our top two bench scorers and were the ones expected to take most of the shots off the bench and also are the two least likely turnover prone players on the team and the TO they do get are walks and charges which don't go the other way for easy hoops.

Nuntius
02-15-2012, 03:51 AM
I think we knew that was going to be impossible to keep winning games while shooting a horrible percentage.

I disagree. We're actually shooting better as of late. In the last 4 games, excluding the loss to Memphis, we've actually shot better than 40%.

Justin Tyme is right. The problem lies within our defense. It makes the most sense. We find our pace through our defense. When our defense fails, we just cannot find our pace.

CableKC
02-15-2012, 04:03 AM
7 deep on a good night. This is why a move must be made.
Hansbrough has been inconsistent as of late....so he's fallen out of my "Starting 7" and now think that we only have a "Starting 6". I'm putting him at the front of the line in the same group as Inferno, Foster, AJ, Lance and Amundson. I believe that he's part of the future core...but other Teams have figured out his game, adjusted to him and he hasn't figured out how to get over that proverbial "hump" to get to the next level.

Regardless, you're right...we need to make a move.

Asher99
02-15-2012, 04:04 AM
Here is what I hope a meaningless random stat....

We are 3-9 in the 12 games PG has got the most burn this year(34 rounded MPG or more) And are 14-2 rest of the games with a 8-0 record when less than 28 MPG. These numbers could be a product of not having Hill as well.

Heisenberg
02-15-2012, 04:12 AM
Here is what I hope a meaningless random stat....

We are 3-9 in the 12 games PG has got the most burn this year(34 rounded MPG or more) And are 14-2 rest of the games with a 8-0 record when less than 28 MPG. These numbers could be a product of not having Hill as well.
That's because he's the one starter/big minute guy that Frank leaves in games regardless of the score.

immortality
02-15-2012, 04:18 AM
Yea we really need to get our defense back, one of the reasons we were winning was because it hid our lack of offensive skills. When we go try to engage in a shooting match like we did with Denver we are going to lose.

Heisenberg
02-15-2012, 04:23 AM
I think the whole "man, we're deep" thing comes from we've got 5 guys on the bench that can legitimately play basketball. That's honestly something not a lot of teams have, there're a ton of jersey fillers around the NBA. The problem is there's no real 6th starter type. It's just a squad of goons that play hard and give effort but really just aren't all that skilled. There's not close to a consistent offensive performer that doesn't start (or that does lately), especially with Hill out. We desperately need a bench big that has some idea how to put his back to the basket.

We're deep, but deep with mediocrity, at best.

Asher99
02-15-2012, 04:29 AM
Hansbrough has been inconsistent as of late

Hard to be consistent when you don't consistently get the rock, most of the 6th man candidates are getting 10+ shots times a night. When Tyler gets it that much he's scoring 14.4 PPG in 7 games this year. That average is right there with Crawford, Harrington and the JET this year a few pegs below Harden and Lou Williams. But rather getting fed like a 6th man of the year candidate he's getting his career low in attempts in his career high in MPG.

He's had 5 of those 7 games with Hill on board and Hill still got his shots (9.2 FGA per game} so with no Hill there is no reason he's shouldn't be used more. He's done it just two times without Hill in 9 games this year and somehow managed 3 times to get 3 or less shots something that never happened with Hill around.

Nuntius
02-15-2012, 05:06 AM
I think the whole "man, we're deep" thing comes from we've got 5 guys on the bench that can legitimately play basketball. That's honestly something not a lot of teams have, there're a ton of jersey fillers around the NBA. The problem is there's no real 6th starter type. It's just a squad of goons that play hard and give effort but really just aren't all that skilled. There's not close to a consistent offensive performer that doesn't start (or that does lately), especially with Hill out. We desperately need a bench big that has some idea how to put his back to the basket.


I completely agree with this.

As for the last part, Koufos would be great.

Bball
02-15-2012, 05:42 AM
I suspect it's a combination of things. One thing I'd be curious about is seeing if the NBA as a whole has improved offensively. Our defense might've benefited from some early season NBA ragged offensive play as teams were rounding into shape.

Our offense could use some consistent scoring threats. We still seem to be lacking that. Hibbert seems to have fallen away from that.

I think the Hill injury is catching up. Our depth wasn't what we thought and the Hill injury really magnifies that. It also limits Vogel in the 4th qtr when he might like to finish the game with closers that might include Hill...

I don't think extended mins for Lance is accomplishing anything if he's at the 2 position because he doesn't appear to be a shooting guard that can shoot a lick. If we're going to lose anyway, put him at the 1 and tell him to drive and dish and see how that part of his game develops with some legitimate options around him.

I don't think it's helping that just as the team lost their swagger, other teams suddenly see the Pacers as a team to beat. We're getting everyone's best shot. And that is helping to expose some depth issues. But other than the argument the 1st unit is overused and mentally and physically worn down because the 2nd unit isn't getting more mins, it's hard to fault the 2nd unit when Miami buried the starters from the opening tip. ...and after the team had a couple of days of rest.

When Hibbert is in a funk we don't have AD and DD to mix and match to replace him with.

Roy's agent probably is wondering about that "we'll wait until summer to talk contract" stance he took....

I think the team needs to be dangling Tyler out there to see if there's any interest in a trade and see what we could get back. I know I'll get shot for this but I'd consider Foster for a trade too... Maybe as a package... Not sure what that Foster/Tyler pkg would get us tho.

spazzxb
02-15-2012, 05:49 AM
I am just glad there is another game in less than 24 hours. This game can go (*explitive)

Having basicly accepted the loss at halftime, the second half wasn't as embarassing. I was at least glad to see Paul George get some developmental minutes at SF next to Lance. I still really would like to see PG and Danny stagger there rest time(obviously it wouldn't have mattered this game). I think PG would thrive being designated option one when Danny rests. It was also good to see Lance be the mature player while Howard got himself ejected, now if he could just make a jumpshot(i still expect his shot is better than we have seen in games to this point).

FireTheCoach
02-15-2012, 06:10 AM
It was so bad that I fell asleep on the couch about 5 mins into the game... woke up once with about 9 mins left in Q4, watched about 30 secs and turned the channel to the Westminster Dog Show, it was a much more competitive program... a Pekingese named Malachy won. I would take this dog running our point and 4 mutts that can catch a frisbee and give the Heat more competition than the Pacers did last night.

<a href="http://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e164/warzonecarp/?action=view&amp;current=r-WESTMINSTER-DOG-SHOW-large570.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e164/warzonecarp/r-WESTMINSTER-DOG-SHOW-large570.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

able
02-15-2012, 06:16 AM
The reason is Hill for the most part, when West goes out, Tyler in, our defense just collapses completely, he can not stay with his man, he's like a kid that sees something interesting everywhere but where he is supposed to be, he drifts over to help, so bad he set a screen for the opponent and yes that is by accident, he could not set a decent screen if he really tried it, his p&r is horrible to say the least (he's already left his man before the ballhandler even passed his screen), argh i better shut up. Hill's defense mostly "hides" that part, now it is out in the open.

What happened last night ? watch the first 5 minutes, where their shots rattle in, our rattle out, and the refs had already made at least 5 dubious calls the other way,talking about deflating, it kills.

We still 17 - 11 that is .650 ball and a long way from .450 from last season, we are nowhere near contenders, but who talked us into being one?

mattie
02-15-2012, 06:23 AM
I am just glad there is another game in less than 24 hours. This game can go (*explitive)

Having basicly accepted the loss at halftime, the second half wasn't as embarassing. I was at least glad to see Paul George get some developmental minutes at SF next to Lance. I still really would like to see PG and Danny stagger there rest time(obviously it wouldn't have mattered this game). I think PG would thrive being designated option one when Danny rests. It was also good to see Lance be the mature player while Howard got himself ejected, now if he could just make a jumpshot(i still expect his shot is better than we have seen in games to this point).

The Heat he have 3 players that average more points per game than our leading scorer. There is plenty of scoring opportunities for Paul when Danny is in the game. Plenty. Paul just won't shoot. He makes it his mission in every game to defer to garbage offensive players, (and I say offensive, because they honestly offend me when they attemp to score) Jones, Price, and Lance. It's ridiculous.

Paul. SHOOT.

spazzxb
02-15-2012, 06:35 AM
its about having a scorer on the floor at all times. I still want them both to start.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

Asher99
02-15-2012, 06:48 AM
The Heat he have 3 players that average more points per game than our leading scorer. There is plenty of scoring opportunities for Paul when Danny is in the game. Plenty. Paul just won't shoot. He makes it his mission in every game to defer to garbage offensive players, (and I say offensive, because they honestly offend me when they attemp to score) Jones, Price, and Lance. It's ridiculous.

Paul. SHOOT.

These are from our 4 game skid and show PG is shooting. Overall this month he's only second to Danny in attempts.

29-for-47 61.7% for David West
3-for-5 60.0% for Lou Amundson
12-for-24 50.0% for Tyler Hansbrough
2-for-4 50.0% for Jeff Foster
11-for-24 45.8% for A.J. Price
15-for-33 45.4% for Darren Collison
8-for-18 44.4% for Dahntay Jones
23-for-54 42.6% for Danny Granger
16-for-40 40.0% for Roy Hibbert
6-for-17 35.3% for Lance Stephenson
13-for-42 30.9% for Paul George

Asher99
02-15-2012, 07:00 AM
Hansbrough on ESPN Radio yesterday, sorry if its been posted.
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7572560

D-BONE
02-15-2012, 07:16 AM
Well, righting the ship needs to start tonight and be clearly underway by ASB given the alleged friendly schedule. Lots of good points in this thread. Here are ones I agree with and some I would add.

-Our depth was greatly exaggerated
-We benefited to a degree early from some friendly breaks and ineffective opponent offense post-lockout
-We tooted our own horns publicly too much on a few occasions in post-game celebrations in relatively meaningless early season games & generally in broadcasting how "smash mouth" and "tough guy" we are
- Our collection of talent as a whole is generally slow and our bigs are athletically limited, both of which are starting to be exposed
- Our PG play is just not what we need (more dependable defense and distribution to scorers); not that DC hasn't done a reasonable job with what he's got, but it's just not what we need

Cavs game is no gimmie. I will accept a L if the team looks like it has a heart. That is all.

McKeyFan
02-15-2012, 07:58 AM
- Our PG play is just not what we need (more dependable defense and distribution to scorers); not that DC hasn't done a reasonable job with what he's got, but it's just not what we need

Yep.

I think you've got to factor in the correlation between this downslide and George Hill's absence.

It took a few games after Hill's departure before we started losing bad. I'm wondering if the bigger effect was not losing George's play on either end, but losing his ability to pass and feed the post. He is not great at it, but he is decent, and compared to Collison, fantastic.

I'm wondering if team chemistry began to slowly erode as the other players stopped getting the ball as regularly in the spots they like.

Nuntius
02-15-2012, 08:10 AM
we are nowhere near contenders, but who talked us into being one?

That's the problem, I think. Some people thought that we were contenders when we won Minny and Dallas B2B in their homes. The "Contenders or Pretenders" talk had some people believing this as well.

Also, remember when some people whined when the media gave us no love and when we played with empty stands despite being undefeated at home? The media started giving us love and the Fieldhouse started to fill with people (for various reasons). What happened? We started to lose at home.

Remember when we were saying that we are the league's best kept secret? Guess what. If you say that in public, it's not a secret anymore.

Teams started adjusting to us. They started taking us seriously. At the same time, our players were either tired or overconfident and stopped giving their full effort. Teams started outhustling us. And, of course, we started losing.

That's the key issue, I think. We were dubbed "contenders" and this brought negative results to our team. That's why a lot of people here are heavily disappointed. I doubt that a similar losing streak would bring these reactions last year when our goal was to play .500 ball.

Mackey_Rose
02-15-2012, 08:57 AM
Danny Granger rolled his ego at the end of the 1st quarter went to the locker room and did not return. His ego is day to day at this point.

You can't blame DG for last night. He tripped and fell into that lifeboat that took him to the locker room. Totally not his fault.

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1584328475648&id=1882702ee59cd5b7569df4cd1de795de

Pacer Fan
02-15-2012, 09:41 AM
I'm leaning towards this and the notion that we have a deep bench was "fool's gold".....we are only 6 deep.

I'ts only Fool's Gold to the ones that thought it was Gold. I knew it wasn't gold fool...:)

Tom White
02-15-2012, 10:09 AM
I have to start wondering about four things:

1) Are many of our players just mentally weak?
2) Did something happen with our locker room chemistry?
3) Is this the coaching staff?
4) Is it mostly just '**** happens' and nothing big actually happened to cause these changes?

I'm not the quickest to point to number one, and I don't believe in going there just because players have bad games, but when there's just not much sense of fight, I start to wonder more.

Last year, after the coaching change, the team hit a string of loses that people blamed on various happenings within the team. Are there any similarities from that time period to the one the team is going through now?

I'm not trying to point to anything in particular, I'm just trying to remember. Have substitution patterns changed to be similar to that previous losing string? Is the injury situation similar? Similar strength of opponents?

What was done to pull out of it last year? Or did it just correct itself?

BillS
02-15-2012, 10:16 AM
I saw Danny come down on that ankle, I don't think it is anklegoprain at all. He looked to me like he was at least trying out there.

What I think has happened is that the team has lost its ability to come back after being smacked in the face hard to start with. If things don't go their way (shooting 26% in the first quarter, some calls not being made or being made the other direction) they just completely lose focus and begin to stagger around like the walking dead.

Essentially, ANYTHING that takes them out of the flow of their game is becoming fatal, and this is an attribute of a young team with a young coach who is missing one of their floor leaders - it is why the loss of Hill seems to be a wash in the box score but is making a difference on the floor.

I maintain the hope that, just like getting some FTs can help a shooter get back into rhythm, some wins will get the guys back into the right mindset.

On the other hand, 26%? 26 FREAKING PERCENT? By the time you finish a quarter of that you are done, done, done - especially when you can't hold your opponents below 60% in the second and third quarters. Players on this team need to hit the hardwood at 10 am and shoot for 2 hours, have lunch, hit the weight room for a normal workout or whatever, then come back out and shoot for another 2 hours. Just shoot - no plays, no walkthroughs, no film, no fooling around. This is getting to the realm of stupid.

MTM
02-15-2012, 10:26 AM
To simplify the team so far this season, it appears that as Roy goes, so goes this team.

As he has in years past, he started the year focused, tough, and was a double double waiting to happen. And the team played well.

About the time Roy started getting more national media attention for a potential All-Star nod, his play diminished. I said in jest in one game thread that he should give back his All-Star nomination, but now I say it with a bit more seriousness. Meaning... play like an All-Star (at least like a fringe one), or don't call yourself one. Right now he is playing like he did for long stretches of the past couple of years when he was not effective. I was hoping this would be the year this didn't happen to him, but the season is arcing in that same downward slope again.

And unfortunately, as Roy goes, so goes the team.

graphic-er
02-15-2012, 10:38 AM
If you guys think our early success was due in part to playing crappy performing teams due to the lock out you all dont' watch basketball enough. This team in the course of a month beat LA, Orlando, Chicago, Boston x2, and Dallas. Beat them all on the Road too. That is not a fluke. In both our Denver and Memphis losses we were in a position to win the game late in the 4th. We just didn't make the plays necessary to win. Thats what happens in this league. So a 4 game losing streak looks terrible. But we only looked liked a 4 game loser in 2 of those losses. We got handled by ATL, but we bounced back decently over the next 2 just couldn't get some shots to fall or we didn't make the defensive plays to win. Its not like we have been getting blown out in all 4 games.

People just take a step back from the ledge.

Look the key is George Hill, Defense is infectious. We are missing one of our primary defensive playmakers. When George Hill is getting deflections and steals, PG and Granger gets in on the act as well. Players can afford to gamble a bit more when you have a guy like Hill who isn't going to get burnt every on every screen. He makes DC look better by association because all the sudden you have 2 guys you can throw at the opposing Point.

Vogel has been trying to compensate by scoring more and playing the starters more. Its just not working. Look Paul George isn't hitting 7 3's in a game again anytime soon, and i can't believe Vogel is content to let him camp out on the 3 point line. But thats why our future star is shooting 30% right now. It couldn't hurt to have PG cut to the rim after feeding Roy in the post. The defenders are looking off George all game long to be ready to double Roy when we makes his move.

The way this team plays is so asinine sometimes....

Trader Joe
02-15-2012, 10:42 AM
It's looking pretty clear to me that Roy is still the same Roy we knew last year. Not that that's the worst thing in the world, just that it's pretty clear he's not worth max money and he is still very prone to the same emotional funks and roller coaster up and downs we've gotten so used to. However, he's due to start up swinging at some point if he follows his usually pattern so hopefully he does it for all these really bad teams we have coming up.

In other words, we're still looking for that "it" guy. I guess Paul George is the next up to bat, but I'm not sure I'm really get that vibe from him either. He seems like he's more scheduled to become another Granger. Which, again, isn't a bad thing, but there is clearly a reason so many of us have been pushing for a guy like Rondo if he were to actually be available to us.

Peck
02-15-2012, 10:45 AM
If you guys think our early success was due in part to playing crappy performing teams due to the lock out you all dont' watch basketball enough. This team in the course of a month beat LA, Orlando, Chicago, Boston x2, and Dallas. Beat them all on the Road too. That is not a fluke. In both our Denver and Memphis losses we were in a position to win the game late in the 4th. We just didn't make the plays necessary to win. Thats what happens in this league. So a 4 game losing streak looks terrible. But we only looked liked a 4 game loser in 2 of those losses. We got handled by ATL, but we bounced back decently over the next 2 just couldn't get some shots to fall or we didn't make the defensive plays to win. Its not like we have been getting blown out in all 4 games.

People just take a step back from the ledge.

Look the key is George Hill, Defense is infectious. We are missing one of our primary defensive playmakers. When George Hill is getting deflections and steals, PG and Granger gets in on the act as well. Players can afford to gamble a bit more when you have a guy like Hill who isn't going to get burnt every on every screen. He makes DC look better by association because all the sudden you have 2 guys you can throw at the opposing Point.

Vogel has been trying to compensate by scoring more and playing the starters more. Its just not working. Look Paul George isn't hitting 7 3's in a game again anytime soon, and i can't believe Vogel is content to let him camp out on the 3 point line. But thats why our future star is shooting 30% right now. It couldn't hurt to have PG cut to the rim after feeding Roy in the post. The defenders are looking off George all game long to be ready to double Roy when we makes his move.

The way this team plays is so asinine sometimes....

I must be living in bizaro world.

Graphic-er is the voice of reason? (no offense)

Great great post and I wish I could thank it 100 times.

The Sleeze
02-15-2012, 10:55 AM
It's looking pretty clear to me that Roy is still the same Roy we knew last year. Not that that's the worst thing in the world, just that it's pretty clear he's not worth max money and he is still very prone to the same emotional funks and roller coaster up and downs we've gotten so used to.

In other words, we're still looking for that "it" guy. I guess Paul George is the next up to bat, but I'm not sure I'm really get that vibe from him either. He seems like he's more scheduled to become another Granger. Which, again, isn't a bad thing, but there is clearly a reason so many of us have been pushing for a guy like Rondo if he were to actually be available to us.

It's nice to hear someone else that has this same outlook on PG. I just don't see him becoming more than a Granger either. He already said that is who he looks up to the most to help him with his game, which might explain why he is so happy to pull up for jumpshots instead of driving to the basket. I know he is only in his 2nd year and he is still learning, but I look at rookies like Marshon Brooks and they just know how to score and get to the basket.

Every time PG has a good game it is because he is hitting threes, which isn't a reliable scoring method when your 6'10" and you have a huge size advantage over anyone guarding you. Learn to POST UP. Against the Bulls he had Rip guarding him and didn't post up once.

This post is not meant to be a "rag on" PG, its more of I really like him and I hate to see all that potential become another role player.

Major Cold
02-15-2012, 10:56 AM
The reality is that last year we were not nearly as bad as JOB lead us to believe.

This year and half of last year we have learned that we are not nearly as smash mouth as Vogel would like us to believe.

We are a middle ground team that has the talent to compete with an upper tier team. But we lack the consistency, maturation, and fortitude to sustain our play.

It takes so much more than just changing the roster and coaching staff. And before this season is over with we will have another period of "this is the 3 best team in the conference". But the reality is we are just young with above average talent. That is a recipe for games like this and Utah.


Roy has not been the same since DHoward schooled him. It was well before the All-Star nod that Roy was slipping. He is tired. He is slow. He is near 2nd year Roy at this point.

We still have some changes, and I am not certain those will happen this year. Small market teams not utilizing top 5 draft picks need more than just 3 years to compete and get out of cap-hell.

As a fan I am pissed. As an objective fan of NBA basketball I am not surprised.

Since86
02-15-2012, 10:57 AM
I think all this started about the time the coaching staff started talking about opening up the offense some. Trying to get the Pacers to score freely, and they don't have the ability to play up-and-down basketball, and then turn it on defensively all at the same time.

And they don't have the ability to score freely. That's for sure.

IndyJones
02-15-2012, 11:04 AM
Perhaps many of you didn't watch until the end, or maybe it was just garbage time. But I was sort of happy watching PG looking for his shot late in the game against Miami.

I also think that this year Miami is just that good. They are destroying everyone.

Major Cold
02-15-2012, 11:30 AM
No doubt this Heat team is better than last year. For the Heat to get to the finals last year it was more of lack of competition than them being that good.

In fact I think 03 Pistons would have beaten them last year. Also I think the Jason Kidd's nets could have beaten them.

But this year I don't think any Eastern Conference champion of the last 15 years could have beaten them in last 10 games.

BillS
02-15-2012, 11:45 AM
And they don't have the ability to score.

Fixed :zip:

NapTonius Monk
02-15-2012, 11:45 AM
I just don’t want to add to what I’m sure is already an overwhelming display of negativity and doom and gloom.


http://pacersdigest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=419&stc=1&d=1329320724

JEM
02-15-2012, 11:49 AM
The reason is Hill for the most part, when West goes out, Tyler in, our defense just collapses completely, he can not stay with his man, he's like a kid that sees something interesting everywhere but where he is supposed to be, he drifts over to help, so bad he set a screen for the opponent and yes that is by accident, he could not set a decent screen if he really tried it, his p&r is horrible to say the least (he's already left his man before the ballhandler even passed his screen), argh i better shut up. Hill's defense mostly "hides" that part, now it is out in the open.


I question whether you watch any games at all if you put the " collapse " on Hansbrough. He has played far better D than West this year and has been the Pacers most willing help defender so much so that he ends up being the one looking bad because often times noone rotates behind him.

In fact I will not give your posts the time of day.

able
02-15-2012, 11:59 AM
JEM I am grateful for your gesture, you made my day, I actually broke a smile.

he's so willing to help that he sets screens for the opponents, let's his own man walk and scrambles over way to late seeing another basket scored.
Not watch? not missed a game in years, LP broadband does that for you,staying up every night unless west coast, I watch those in delay.

How many games did you cheer for Tyler yourself this year?

You damn well missed the game last night, "good help D" :rotflmao:

Sollozzo
02-15-2012, 12:04 PM
It was a disappointing effort, but Miami has three players who are superior to any player we have on our roster. They would absolutely bulldoze us in a playoff series. You can't really expect to compete with a team when it has three players who are head and shoulders better than any player you have. As another poster mentioned, our team is much more suited to compete with Chicago than it is Miami.

Miami is easily the best team in the league and it's not even close, IMHO. The only way they don't win it all this year is if they have a mental meltdown.

vnzla81
02-15-2012, 12:30 PM
If you guys think our early success was due in part to playing crappy performing teams due to the lock out you all dont' watch basketball enough. This team in the course of a month beat LA, Orlando, Chicago, Boston x2, and Dallas. Beat them all on the Road too.

Yeah ok let's ignore that the lockout didn't have anything to do with some teams not performing right, The Celtics were out of shape, the same thing with Dallas, Orlando has the Dhoward thing going on so you can beat them sometimes, The Lakers suck and The Bulls didnt have Deng, so yeah we got to beat those teams when they were down, let's see how we do now that they are back in shape and playing well.

Unclebuck
02-15-2012, 12:43 PM
The Heat were extremely impressive last night, wow were they good.

Pacers were bad obviously.

The question that we are trying to get to the bottom of is what is going on with the Pacers.

I think the easy question is what is going on - we can all see that, the difficult question is why are we playing so bad, how is this happening. I don't have the answers.

As far as what is happening - the defense has fallen off the map and frustration has set in. I think the lack of practice time and the number of games caught up with the Pacers. Remember in the first 4 weeks of the season the Pacers were always on the low end of number of games played. But that has changed the past three weeks and also the competition has been pretty stiff lately.

There is a very fine line between winning and losing, there is a very fine line between having a coinfident team and not having a confident team. It is easy to fall into bad habbits and very difficult to get out of losing and out of bad habbits

I know I am throwing out platitutes.

Bottom like I think this is temporary. But I also wonder if the pacers are really good enough to be 17-7 - that might be too much to ask. 17-7 over a full 82 game season is a 58, 59 win pace. We aren't that good. We are IMo a team that wins between 48-51 games (in a full season a team fighting for homecourt advantage in the first round) and concerned about getting out of the first found of the playoffs.

Cactus Jax
02-15-2012, 12:44 PM
Yeah ok let's ignore that the lockout didn't have anything to do with some teams not performing right, The Celtics were out of shape, the same thing with Dallas, Orlando has the Dhoward thing going on so you can beat them sometimes, The Lakers suck and The Bulls didnt have Deng, so yeah we got to beat those teams when they were down, let's see how we do now that they are back in shape and playing well.

Generally I don't tend to agree with you vnzla, but with this I agree 100%. I think the league as a whole has been/was at a very crappy performance level the first month of the season, and the Pacers took advantage of that. Now that most all the players are in decent shape, teams have an idea how to gameplan and beat teams much easier and I think that's hurt the Pacers a lot, especially PG and Hibbert.

I think at some point, either during this season or before next season, a decision is going to have to be made to keep either Paul George or Danny Granger, and to dump the other to get either PG help or a true SG. The last thing the team needs are two of the same player and it seems, at least to me, that they're trying to make Paul like Danny and it's not working at all.

The problem is that Danny doesn't have nearly the trade value that Paul (I assume) probably would, and also sets the team back for a short while. February and March are going to be very interesting going to the trade deadline, there's a good chance they'll probably be buyers at that point as the schedule does get easier, but if things don't turn around quickly they could turn into a slight sell/change mode.

Trader Joe
02-15-2012, 12:47 PM
The Heat were extremely impressive last night, wow were they good.

Pacers were bad obviously.

The question that we are trying to get to the bottom of is what is going on with the Pacers.

I think the easy question is what is going on - we can all see that, the difficult question is why are we playing so bad, how is this happening. I don't have the answers.

As far as what is happening - the defense has fallen off the map and frustration has set in. I think the lack of practice time and the number of games caught up with the Pacers. Remember in the first 4 weeks of the season the Pacers were always on the low end of number of games played. But that has changed the past three weeks and also the competition has been pretty stiff lately.

There is a very fine line between winning and losing, there is a very fine line between having a coinfident team and not having a confident team. It is easy to fall into bad habbits and very difficult to get out of losing and out of bad habbits

I know I am throwing out platitutes.

Bottom like I think this is temporary. But I also wonder if the pacers are really good enough to be 17-7 - that might be too much to ask. 17-7 over a full 82 game season is a 58, 59 win pace. We aren't that good. We are IMo a team that wins between 48-51 games (in a full season a team fighting for homecourt advantage in the first round) and concerned about getting out of the first found of the playoffs.

I agree, and we can't ignore that recently our schedule has been very tough from a competition stand point. However, we desperately need to take care of the next 6 or so games, as it is one cupcake after another, and then the start of March is not very forgiving. If we struggle against these under .500 teams (think a .500 record), it's very likely that our overall record could be right at .500 after the first week and a half of March. It's not an easy schedule once you get past I think the New Orleans game.

Justin Tyme
02-15-2012, 01:00 PM
I completely agree with this.

As for the last part, Koufos would be great.


Pekovic would even be better. It will never happen, but it WOULD be better.

Koufos last night as a starter... 9 pts... 9 rebs... 5 stl... 3 bs

Ace E.Anderson
02-15-2012, 01:09 PM
Generally I don't tend to agree with you vnzla, but with this I agree 100%. I think the league as a whole has been/was at a very crappy performance level the first month of the season, and the Pacers took advantage of that. Now that most all the players are in decent shape, teams have an idea how to gameplan and beat teams much easier and I think that's hurt the Pacers a lot, especially PG and Hibbert.

I think at some point, either during this season or before next season, a decision is going to have to be made to keep either Paul George or Danny Granger, and to dump the other to get either PG help or a true SG. The last thing the team needs are two of the same player and it seems, at least to me, that they're trying to make Paul like Danny and it's not working at all.

The problem is that Danny doesn't have nearly the trade value that Paul (I assume) probably would, and also sets the team back for a short while. February and March are going to be very interesting going to the trade deadline, there's a good chance they'll probably be buyers at that point as the schedule does get easier, but if things don't turn around quickly they could turn into a slight sell/change mode.


Idk how much higher trade value PG has than DG. I think we somewhat overvalue PG a tad on this board. While he is an impressive young player, he is also VERY inconsistent and is somewhat ineffective offensively when his jumper isn't falling.

I'm not saying DG is a GREAT player, but he would be a strong addition to any number of playoff teams looking for a perimeter threat that is capable of holding his own on the defensive end as well.

At the end of the day however, I do agree with you. These two do not play well off of one another, and we HAVE to trade one of those players in order to get something different, whether it be a consistent scoring 2, or an ideal upgrade at the 1.

I know a lot of people dislike Monta Ellis, but he is the type of one on one scorer that this team has desperately lacked for years. Im not advocating a DG for Monta swap, but that is the type of scorer we need to be looking for.

BillS
02-15-2012, 01:10 PM
At a certain level, we are freaking out over being blown out of a game we weren't guaranteed to win.

Let's see if we bounce back and start looking better while winning games we ARE supposed to win.

Like UB said, we were never expecting this team to be the equivalent of a 55-60 win team. We're going through a bad patch, the question is can it be corrected against the poorer competition? If we lose those games or play crappy and barely manage wins, then we can go crazy.

ECKrueger
02-15-2012, 01:16 PM
I don't think each loss on an individual level bugs me too much. It just happens that they all came in a row.

I think we should/could have won a couple at least, but each game is not a terrible loss. Just the string of losses like I said. That makes me feel a little bit better.

This game was pathetic though.

vnzla81
02-15-2012, 01:25 PM
I would also like to mention a thing that nobody wants to bring it up but David West's defense is horrible, I remember been worried about this when we first got him, I knew he was a bad defender but he has proven to be even worse.

DC's and Danny's defense also went back to the "old Danny" and "old DC" type of defense, just look at it this way, in our first unit we have 3 starters that are pretty bad defenders it doesn't matter how much defense we practice as long as we have those huge holes we are not going anywhere, combine that with a horrible offense and you got what you see.

Major Cold
02-15-2012, 01:33 PM
I would also like to mention a thing that nobody wants to bring it up but David West's defense is horrible, I remember been worried about this when we first got him, I knew he was a bad defender but he has proven to be even worse.

DC's and Danny's defense also went back to the "old Danny" and "old DC" type of defense, just look at it this way, in our first unit we have 3 starters that are pretty bad defenders it doesn't matter how much defense we practice as long as we have those huge holes we are not going anywhere, combine that with a horrible offense and you got what you see.

West and DC have horrible closeout defense. But Danny is not back to "old Danny". That is just hating to hate.

The Sleeze
02-15-2012, 01:45 PM
Per the Panic Meter I would say that I am at a 6.


http://pacersdigest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=419&stc=1&d=1329320724

Hicks
02-15-2012, 01:50 PM
Yeah ok let's ignore that the lockout didn't have anything to do with some teams not performing right, The Celtics were out of shape, the same thing with Dallas, Orlando has the Dhoward thing going on so you can beat them sometimes, The Lakers suck and The Bulls didnt have Deng, so yeah we got to beat those teams when they were down, let's see how we do now that they are back in shape and playing well.

Oh, gee, it sure is lucky the lockout only affected all of the OTHER teams and not us......

Also I can remind fans of other teams that they beat us without Hill so those wins don't count.

You can't have it both ways.

vnzla81
02-15-2012, 02:00 PM
Oh, gee, it sure is lucky the lockout only affected all of the OTHER teams and not us......

Also I can remind fans of other teams that they beat us without Hill so those wins don't count.

You can't have it both ways.

I'm not saying that the lockout didn't affect us either, all I'm saying is that we were outplaying teams because we are a young team and he had all that energy, there is a reason why teams like Denver, Utah, Philly, were riding high for few weeks, now all those teams are coming down to earth.

By the way I like George Hill but I don't think his lost is as big as the Bulls losing Deng or Dirk playing with one leg, huge difference, I don't think we win either one of this four games with him either and I am 100% sure that he wouldn't have made any difference yesterday either.

Hicks
02-15-2012, 02:03 PM
Dirk had a great game! And we blew them out!

These qualifiers are madness. And never ending.

Since86
02-15-2012, 02:07 PM
Dirk had a great game! And we blew them out!

http://cinemafanatic.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/animal-house.jpg

Forget it, he's rolling. :laugh:

vnzla81
02-15-2012, 02:10 PM
Dirk had a great game! And we blew them out!

These qualifiers are madness. And never ending.

You are right that was his first great game of the year, he was sucking pretty bad before that game.

joeyd
02-15-2012, 02:10 PM
At a certain level, we are freaking out over being blown out of a game we weren't guaranteed to win. Let's see if we bounce back and start looking better while winning games we ARE supposed to win. Like UB said, we were never expecting this team to be the equivalent of a 55-60 win team. We're going through a bad patch, the question is can it be corrected against the poorer competition? If we lose those games or play crappy and barely manage wins, then we can go crazy.

I agree, but something has changed. And I think it starts with coaching and individual player discipline. George's comments about overlooking the Heat? Come on! No excuse not to play hard and try to beat the crap out of them on our floor if they were really down.

The Heat are good, but not that good that the game should have been called after the first quarter of their third away game in a row. I understand that Frank may have wanted us to shoot quick before their D had a chance to set up, but having DC drive against 3 taller defenders in the paint without giving up the ball or waiting for rebounding support is just not sound reasoning. He did this two or three times last night. Lance did the same thing, but succeeded in missing with even less defenders in place. And we need to work the ball better. Shot clock violations and rushing the shot are discipline issues. I never want to see Lance jack up another 3 point attempt. He has the lowest career 3 point field goal percentage on the team (0% I believe).

Smashmouth defense is a type of defensive strategy that is not tied to offense when you really think about it, as some others might be. It's a way of playing. Somehow we have gone away from this, and we need to get back there to ensure that we keep beating the teams we are supposed to beat.

Trader Joe
02-15-2012, 02:11 PM
So a young team with less experience didn't see any negative effects from the lockout?

I can see clearly now the rain is gone.

Major Cold
02-15-2012, 02:14 PM
By the way I like George Hill but I don't think his lost is as big as the Bulls losing Deng or Dirk playing with one leg, huge difference, I don't think we win either one of this four games with him either and I am 100% sure that he wouldn't have made any difference yesterday either.

I agree. This lull is more than Hill. They have lost badly and won consistently badly. We have more issues that missing our combo 6th man.

But I think it is lack of maturation that will come about soon. But people will attribute the coming about to a weak schedule so it will be all for nothing.

But take what you get. We did beat good teams. We did beat bad teams. We have yet to beat them both consistently with a consistent effort and flow.

We are not there yet.

Major Cold
02-15-2012, 02:15 PM
You are right that was his first great game of the year, he was sucking pretty bad before that game.

Which has nothing to do with the fact that he played great against us.

graphic-er
02-15-2012, 02:27 PM
I agree, but something has changed. And I think it starts with coaching and individual player discipline. George's comments about overlooking the Heat? Come on! No excuse not to play hard and try to beat the crap out of them on our floor if they were really down.

Smashmouth defense is a type of defensive strategy that is not tied to offense when you really think about it, as some others might be. It's a way of playing. Somehow we have gone away from this, and we need to get back there to ensure that we keep beating the teams we are supposed to beat.

You know what Smashmouth offense would be? Paul George leading his defender into a bone shattering pick under the basket by our Bigs, while he comes out the other side free for an open jumper. I wonder why Vogel isn't putting some of that into the offense instead of having our big slow guys come out and set PNR at the 3pt line.

MnvrChvy
02-15-2012, 02:35 PM
:soapbox:

1. I don't think Roy is playing as bad (at least offensively) as everyone is saying. I think we are just having a harder time feeding it in to him. He missed a few shots in the last couple games that he usually makes pretty well, but other than that it just looked like we couldn't or wouldn't get it in to him.
2. Ball movement. They are trying to pass and that's great, but it just takes sooooo loooooong. We need Pass - Pass - Pass - Score, but we are getting Pass - Look Around - Pass - Think about shot - Look around - Pass - Chase opponent on fast break. You're supposed to know what you are going to do with the ball before you ever put your hands up to receive it.
3. Crash offensive boards. Send two guys to board every time, and 3 drop back. That's at the very least. If they could tighten up their transition defense they could do 3 board / 2 drop except against teams with high quality 3pt shooters.
4. Our.... well i was going to say defense but really I'll just say that our whole game looks slow. If Vogel believes in his bench he needs to tell everyone to use up more energy. They are being ridiculously conservative with it as if the starters were expecting to stay in the game 42+ minutes. Run the dickens out of your opponent. The only thing that can stop lebron james is lebron james. If he doesn't get a chance to take a nap on the D-side of the court maybe he won't be so energetic on the O-side. (I know. I know. The guy is an amazing athlete and could probably play 48 minutes sprinting, but lets at least try it out. )

So... should I expect Larry to hire me as an assistant coach first or should he just go ahead and give me Vogel's job right away? Either way... I'm easy. :signit:

Peck
02-15-2012, 02:36 PM
You know what Smashmouth offense would be? Paul George leading his defender into a bone shattering pick under the basket by our Bigs, while he comes out the other side free for an open jumper. I wonder why Vogel isn't putting some of that into the offense instead of having our big slow guys come out and set PNR at the 3pt line.

Preach Brother Preach!!!!!!

CJ Jones
02-15-2012, 02:50 PM
There is another option IMO as well.


I think Danny get's mentally affected playing against LeBron.



I mentioned this before the game. Now there's no doubt in my mind Danny's scared (yes i said scared) of LeBron. He doesn't want any part of him.



It was also good to see Lance be the mature player while Howard got himself ejected, now if he could just make a jumpshot(i still expect his shot is better than we have seen in games to this point).

I was glad to see this too. Howard made himself look like a real jack ***, and when he ran up on Lance the second time I thought something bad was about to happen. Give the kid credit for acting like the vet in that situation.

One thing I am worried about was after Lance made his first basket, which was an and 1, Dahntay walked over to him to give him low 5 and Lance ignored it. At the time I got the feeling it was kinda disrespectful to Dahntay. Afterwards I saw Price talking to him before free throw attempt. Later on he seemed back to normal giving the obligatory five after Price's free throw. I'm just wondering if anyone else saw this (that's if anyone was still there;))? I'm sure his emotions were just riding high after being attacked for no reason by the bum that is Juwan Howard.


Yep.



I'm wondering if team chemistry began to slowly erode as the other players stopped getting the ball as regularly in the spots they like.

What? You don't think D. West likes running the pick and pop and catching the ball behind him or at his ankles.



I question whether you watch any games at all if you put the " collapse " on Hansbrough. He has played far better D than West this year and has been the Pacers most willing help defender so much so that he ends up being the one looking bad because often times noone rotates behind him.

In fact I will not give your posts the time of day.

It's clear he's not a fan of Lance or Tyler. I wouldn't take his posts regarding them too seriously.


West and DC have horrible closeout defense. But Danny is not back to "old Danny". That is just hating to hate.

Yes he is. He's been turrible for quite some time. Looking like the old Danny to me.


Oh, gee, it sure is lucky the lockout only affected all of the OTHER teams and not us......

Also I can remind fans of other teams that they beat us without Hill so those wins don't count.

You can't have it both ways.

He's got a point though. Those good teams we beat were either missing players or struggling at the time. I'm interested to see how we stack up against some of them now that they've found their rhythm.

A lot of people expected teams like us (Den, Philly) to get out to a fast start.

BillS
02-15-2012, 03:06 PM
He's got a point though. Those good teams we beat were either missing players or struggling at the time. I'm interested to see how we stack up against some of them now that they've found their rhythm.

Which of our players being out does it take for us to be considered to be "missing players"? Are we considered to be "struggling at the time" or since it is the Pacers is it "we've lost 4 in a row so we must really suck and were faking all those wins"?

It's like every win we've had the other team has an excuse, and every loss we've had there is no circumstance whatsoever to explain it other than suckage. Come on, now.

We're a 45-50 win team in an 82-game season. That translates to 36-40 games out of 66. We're almost halfway there having played nearly all our away games AND still with 38 games left to play. If we go .500 the rest of the way we're within expectations.

Note - that means if we lose half our remaining games, we'll still be within expectations. That means that if we have a 3-4 game losing streak for every 3-4 game winning streak we'll still be within expectations.

graphic-er
02-15-2012, 03:11 PM
Danny faking an injury to get out of the game?
Danny scared of Lebron?

Come on people, you are really reaching. He was clearly limping over to the bench. It was a pretty futile game at that point, could he have come back? Maybe, but I'd rather hope he plays against cleveland.

Pretty hard to play aggressively against Lebron when a clean poke on the ball results in a shooting foul. So is he scared or just not wanting to pick up 2 quick fouls because he breathed in the King's personal space.

McKeyFan
02-15-2012, 03:13 PM
Oh, gee, it sure is lucky the lockout only affected all of the OTHER teams and not us......



I'm not sure his theory is correct, but I think it's plausible in the sense that our defense-only focus at the beginning of the year was a strategic advantage until a month or so in, when our opponents finally got their offensive kinks worked out.

Peck
02-15-2012, 03:16 PM
Danny faking an injury to get out of the game?
Danny scared of Lebron?

Come on people, you are really reaching. He was clearly limping over to the bench. It was a pretty futile game at that point, could he have come back? Maybe, but I'd rather hope he plays against cleveland.

Pretty hard to play aggressively against Lebron when a clean poke on the ball results in a shooting foul. So is he scared or just not wanting to pick up 2 quick fouls because he breathed in the King's personal space.

Actually Sam Amico (Cavs. beat writer) is saying Danny is out tonight.

The Sleeze
02-15-2012, 03:26 PM
Injury report for tonight's game:

Injury report:
Cavs — Anderson Varejao (wrist) out, Anthony Parker (back) out
Pacers — Jeff Foster (back) questionable, Danny Granger (ankle) doubtful, George Hill (ankle) out.

joeyd
02-15-2012, 03:35 PM
Injury report for tonight's game:

Injury report:
Cavs Anderson Varejao (wrist) out, Anthony Parker (back) out
Pacers Jeff Foster (back) questionable, Danny Granger (ankle) doubtful, George Hill (ankle) out.

Foster will not be playing the second game of back to backs. Although it would not surprise me if he dresses, I don't expect to see him until Thursday vs. the Nets at home.

Hibbert
02-15-2012, 03:39 PM
I have to start wondering about four things:

1) Are many of our players just mentally weak?
2) Did something happen with our locker room chemistry?
3) Is this the coaching staff?
4) Is it mostly just '**** happens' and nothing big actually happened to cause these changes?

I'm not the quickest to point to number one, and I don't believe in going there just because players have bad games, but when there's just not much sense of fight, I start to wonder more.

Start wondering? Paul George is so mentally weak its so obvious to other teams, especially the good ones. He might be the softest player in the league cause of it. Have you not noticed how he never has a good game against teams with stars that he idolizes? Its sad and pathetic and I don't see what most do on this site about him becoming this superstar. He looks great in spurts but he just doesn't have that mentality in him, he plays soft and it shows. Trade him for Greg Monroe Larry! Twin Towers of new.

vnzla81
02-15-2012, 03:41 PM
Start wondering? Paul George is so mentally weak its so obvious to other teams, especially the good ones. He might be the softest player in the league cause of it. Have you not noticed how he never has a good game against teams with stars that he idolizes? Its sad and pathetic and I don't see what most do on this site about him becoming this superstar. He looks great in spurts but he just doesn't have that mentality in him, he plays soft and it shows. Trade him for Greg Monroe Larry! Twin Towers of new.

:unimpress

Mackey_Rose
02-15-2012, 03:45 PM
It's clear he's not a fan of Lance or Tyler. I wouldn't take his posts regarding them too seriously.

So because a poster criticizes a player for things they do poorly on the court, we shouldn't take their posts seriously?

Glad we got that cleared up.

CJ Jones
02-15-2012, 04:06 PM
So a young team with less experience didn't see any negative effects from the lockout?

I can see clearly now the rain is gone.

Why did people think teams like ours would have an advantage to start the season?


Which of our players being out does it take for us to be considered to be "missing players"? Are we considered to be "struggling at the time" or since it is the Pacers is it "we've lost 4 in a row so we must really suck and were faking all those wins"?

It's like every win we've had the other team has an excuse, and every loss we've had there is no circumstance whatsoever to explain it other than suckage. Come on, now.

We're a 45-50 win team in an 82-game season. That translates to 36-40 games out of 66. We're almost halfway there having played nearly all our away games AND still with 38 games left to play. If we go .500 the rest of the way we're within expectations.

Note - that means if we lose half our remaining games, we'll still be within expectations. That means that if we have a 3-4 game losing streak for every 3-4 game winning streak we'll still be within expectations.

I didn't say we suck. What I said (and what vnzla said) was that the older teams have found their legs and got back some key pieces. I'm interested to see how we stack up now as opposed to then.


Actually Sam Amico (Cavs. beat writer) is saying Danny is out tonight.

Did they say why? Anyone know what's wrong with the ankle?


So because a poster criticizes a player for things they do poorly on the court, we shouldn't take their posts seriously?
Glad we got that cleared up.

Here's able's post from a couple days ago....

The look in Lance's eyes has me worried more then anything, his reactions and his actions makes me fear there is something fundamentally wrong with him, which has nothing to do with his basketball skills. but if you look at his reaction on Granger hitting the 3 with under 1 minute to bring us within 3, and no not the howling, but the look in his eyes after that, shiver.

He continually bashes TY too. Not saying they don't deserve criticism, but the above post tells me not to take his opinions too seriously.

Justin Tyme
02-15-2012, 04:47 PM
Actually Sam Amico (Cavs. beat writer) is saying Danny is out tonight.


Varejao is out for Cleveland, so both teams have important players out tonight. Which teams "other" players are going to step up tonight?

Justin Tyme
02-15-2012, 04:49 PM
Foster will not be playing the second game of back to backs. Although it would not surprise me if he dresses, I don't expect to see him until Thursday vs. the Nets at home.


I almost want to throw a party when I see Foster dressed as it so infrequently happens.

Justin Tyme
02-15-2012, 05:23 PM
Recently, Bird said, IIRC in an interview, that if the Pacers didn't win XX amount of games this season he should be fired. I didn't pay any attention, b/c I couldn't see this team winning less than what ever the amount of games he quoted. Just interested in what was the least amount of games he, as the FO, felt the Pacers should win. Does anyone recall the # of games he said?

The Sleeze
02-15-2012, 05:28 PM
Recently, Bird said, IIRC in an interview, that if the Pacers didn't win XX amount of games this season he should be fired. I didn't pay any attention, b/c I couldn't see this team winning less than what ever the amount of games he quoted. Just interested in what was the least amount of games he, as the FO, felt the Pacers should win. Does anyone recall the # of games he said?

He actually said "If we don't make the playoffs they should fire me." He went on to say he told the owner that the Pacers should win between 34 - 38 games this year.

http://www.sportsgulp.net/?p=6307

Justin Tyme
02-15-2012, 05:38 PM
He actually said "If we don't make the playoffs they should fire me." He went on to say he told the owner that the Pacers should win between 34 - 38 games this year.

http://www.sportsgulp.net/?p=6307


Well, the Pacers are half way to the minimum 34 win he told Herb. 33 games is half the season and the Pacers have played played 28 games so another 5 games with an easier schedule should produce, hopefully, more wins to make Bird's prediction on target.

naptownmenace
02-15-2012, 06:07 PM
There is another option IMO as well.

5) Other teams have adjusted to our early season style of play.

Unless of course you just mean tonights game. Then in that case I think it is a combination of 1 & 4. We just can't play the Heat. It is down right embarassing playing the Heat and I think Danny get's mentally affected playing against LeBron.

But really, your guess is as good as mine. I have no idea what is going on here.

I definitely think the book on the Pacers is out now and other teams are taking them out of their comfort zone. They definitely miss Hill but teams are pushing them and they aren't responding well.

However, if you look around the league almost every team has had a losing streak of at least 3 games. Even the Heat had a rough stretch of games in January. I think the compacted nature of the shortened season is playing a major factor mainly because of the lack of practice and preparation time.

I think they'll right the ship and adjust but before the season began I predicted a 36-30 season and I didn't get sucked into the hype so I'm not too surprised right now.

Nuntius
02-15-2012, 06:58 PM
Pekovic would even be better. It will never happen, but it WOULD be better.

Koufos last night as a starter... 9 pts... 9 rebs... 5 stl... 3 bs

Yeah but we cannot afford Peko. Koufos is significantly cheaper.

Sookie
02-15-2012, 07:01 PM
I definitely think the book on the Pacers is out now and other teams are taking them out of their comfort zone. They definitely miss Hill but teams are pushing them and they aren't responding well.

However, if you look around the league almost every team has had a losing streak of at least 3 games. Even the Heat had a rough stretch of games in January. I think the compacted nature of the shortened season is playing a major factor mainly because of the lack of practice and preparation time.

I think they'll right the ship and adjust but before the season began I predicted a 36-30 season and I didn't get sucked into the hype so I'm not too surprised right now.

I don't agree.

It's not like we're playing the same style and losing. We're playing a different way. There's no "toughness" no aggression, and barely any defense.

That's not something another team can stop the Pacers from doing. They're doing it themselves.

Nuntius
02-15-2012, 07:19 PM
So because a poster criticizes a player for things they do poorly on the court, we shouldn't take their posts seriously?


Criticizing a player is fine. But when a large percentage of your posts involve bashing said player and/or involving him in trades then it's quite safe to say that said poster is not to be taken too seriously in his posts regarding said player. He may be an amazing poster in general but not when it comes to the particular player.

OakMoses
02-15-2012, 08:00 PM
Start wondering? Paul George is so mentally weak its so obvious to other teams, especially the good ones. He might be the softest player in the league cause of it. Have you not noticed how he never has a good game against teams with stars that he idolizes? Its sad and pathetic and I don't see what most do on this site about him becoming this superstar. He looks great in spurts but he just doesn't have that mentality in him, he plays soft and it shows. Trade him for Greg Monroe Larry! Twin Towers of new.

Anybody else see the irony in a guy named 'Hibbert' calling out guys for being mentally weak?

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

Hibbert
02-15-2012, 09:55 PM
:unimpress

Explain. Try doing so using sentences.