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Peck
02-12-2012, 01:08 AM
Ok, surprise I got my computer back tonight so I am going to go ahead and try and put one of these together.

I will be honest with you I really don’t want to do this as I don’t want to come across as being nothing but negative, but frankly I don’t know what else to be after tonight.

Yes we were on another back to back, yes we were tired, and yes we were missing George Hill and Jeff Foster.

None of that really matters. We’ve played 27 games this was Denver’s 28th. While we are missing a backup center and a backup combo guard they were missing their starting forwards as Gallinari missed the entire game and Nene missed the second half.

Honestly the last time the team played a good game was in Dallas and every since then even in the games they have won they have looked very shaky at best in playing.

I wish I could put my finger exactly on what is going on because in all honesty I don’t know. I would start at the defensive end as it just seems like our defensive play has slacked off and IMO a lot of that is being done on the perimeter. Earlier in the season we were getting a lot of ball deflections and even when we weren’t stealing the ball or changing possessions we were causing the opponents to get set up in their offense late in the shot clock often times either forcing a shot clock violation or causing a very poor shot to be hoisted up. This just doesn’t seem to be happening nearly as much lately. Also I’ve noticed that teams are now forcing Roy to the top of the key and sometimes beyond on the pick and roll and thus leaving the lane uncovered for what is now becoming an easy lay up at the rim.

Also on our offensive sets it seems we are starting to take more and more jump shots and it seems like our ability to work the ball into the post in the lane is waning. Now some of that is going to just be natural with teams adjusting their defense. But some of it is quick perimeter jumpers.

The worst part about all of this is that we have Miami staring at us on Tuesday night and while it is not a guaranteed loss, it will not be a walk in the park either.

Also while I’m at it I am going to do something I am loath to do, but I am going to criticize Frank Vogel for a couple of things. First and foremost he has got to stop letting other teams get such big runs before he calls a time out. I believe Denver went on a 10 point run before he made the first time out; he did this vs. Utah as well. Look I know both sides of this argument. There is the Rick Carlisle thinking that any time a team scored 2 unanswered baskets Rick was calling a time out (Ok that is a slight exaggeration but you get my point) and then there is the Larry Brown let the players play through it thinking. I’m not sure there is an absolute right way to do it, but I think we wait to long to make adjustments. Also when they have a 15 point turn around I would not only call time out after time out to get it stopped I would change out every player on the floor if it was necessary (again exaggeration but you get my point)
Second while I certainly understand the egg timer substitutions and mostly agree with it, there are times you have to turn off the timer. Granger was on fire at the end of the first. Why not let him play into the second to see if he is still going and then take him out. Not bench him, sit him for 20 min. of real time and then put him back in cold.

Like I said I hate to say anything about him but I can’t help but think that these two things tonight contributed to this loss.

Let’s just do grades for tonight, although I’ll warn you now it won’t be pretty.

Danny Granger: C Could have been much higher, but 5 turnovers and only 2 rebounds tends to drag your grade down when the team loses. Cory Brewer also looked like Bernard King for awhile tonight and while I don’t say Danny played horrid defense like some will, I won’t say he played good defense either. As he walked off of the court tonight he threw his towel hard into his seat and he looked very mad. I’m not sure about what either, and then I read that he refused to talk to the media. Don’t know what happened there.

David West: B Very efficient offensive game, good rebounding numbers. Had a bonehead pass to kill any chance of a comeback but I’ll give him a pass here because without his offensive plays we wouldn’t have had a chance anyway. However when Roy is out of position, which is happening more and more, David’s lack of lateral quickness is becoming more and more of a liability. Guards get beat, it happens to the best of them, so somebody has to step up and often times it is the power forward that has to do this. David is not doing it. I don’t know if he can’t or just doesn’t.

Roy Hibbert: D I’m being generous with the D btw. In the second half of this game he was outplayed by Kosta Kofous, yes I’ll say that again he was outplayed by Kosta Kofous. Roy you so far have had a great season, an all-star season but these past few games you have put in some old Roy Hibbert type games. I am just going to go pray that this is because you are tired and need some time off and that this isn’t the annual drop in production that you have suffered in the past. BTW his stats tonight were worthless because if you look at them you will think he had an ok game, he did not. He was horrid; in fact we would have been much better off with West and Hansbrough.

Paul George: C- Don’t let his final point on the board fool you. He did not have a good game either and if it wasn’t for hitting 3 three’s in the 4th he would have had a miserable game on the offensive end. His defense wasn’t hideous, which is what is saving him from a Roy like grade, but there were times where Arron Afflalo looked like Dwayne Wade cutting past him. I do appreciate the fact that he does get on the boards though. But I don’t like the fact that he only got to the line twice, which just tells me he wasn’t driving nearly enough.

Darren Collison: C- I’m probably being to gentle here as well. Yes he did a very good job in the first half at running the offense and yes in the 4th quarter he started running a good pick and roll with West. But my God his defense on Lawson was just embarrassing. I mean its one thing to let your man get past you once or twice but the entire game? Lawson was not only able to get into the lane he was able to get wherever he wanted whenever he wanted. Yea, I’ll stick with the C- but it felt worse than that.

Tyler Hansbrough: C+ Honestly we should have seen more Tyler tonight. He wasn’t as active maybe as you would like early on but just before he was taken out he was really down in the paint battling. I wish he would have gone to the rim more tonight because I have a feeling they would have fouled him. In fact it is a crime we only got him 3 shots which is troubling to me as it does seem that we have gone away from the interior smash mouth basketball we were playing at the beginning of the year. Roy was dead in this game so I think Tyler only playing 17 min. was a mistake.

Lance Stephenson: B+ If only he had a jump shot. He was about the only player tonight who I was certain of who had a pulse on our team. He had a couple of great steals and a terrific rebound off of a missed free throw for a put back. Also he had a pass to Dahntay Jones that was eye popping. He is still young and still has inconsistent games but I really like where I think he is headed.

A.J. Price: B+ Yes he shot too much, it just so happened tonight he actually hit some of his shots. However that is not what merits him the high grade. He along with Lance provided a spark of life in what was a lifeless team in the 2nd & 3rd quarters. He played fairly decent defense as well. In fact he did a better job on Lawson than Collison did.

Dahntay Jones: C Was still in control, which I’m about to quit even mentioning anymore as this hasn’t been a problem since the second week of the season. But he did miss some shots tonight that he really needed to hit. But then again you can say that about everybody on our team tonight (minus David West). He is still a good free throw shooter and got to the line as many times as Paul did (one was shot for a T but that is why I’m saying he shot as many and not more).

Lou Amundson: C- He was a human foul magnate tonight but he still played better defense than Roy. Oh how I wish he would not have missed that dunk, that would have been epic. But he did so it just looked bad. Not going to spend a lot of time on him because he really didn’t play that much.

I am not panicking by any means; I mean it’s just a three game (probably going to be a four game) losing streak. But I really am starting to be concerned, we just have not looked right for several games now.

Here this is what George Karl had to say about this game.

"We won the game because we had more effort and energy." - Denver Coach George Karl

I don’t know about you guys but that bothers me.



http://www.chafee.net/ianchafee/realmen/images/golddust.jpg

PGisthefuture
02-12-2012, 01:19 AM
Really worried about this team in general, but specifically Roy. You mentioned that we haven't have a particularly good game since Dallas. I'm wondering if the fact that they beat the defending champs as well as getting recognition with PG and Roy going to Orlando has done them more good than bad. I just think they kind of are almost too high on themselves and just think they can win without trying or something. Anyways I hope Vogel or somebody gives them a good talking to or something, because this team is too good to start losing on a regular basis.

Pingu
02-12-2012, 01:38 AM
We need to play to our strengths, which are: pound the ball inside, attack the rim, get fouled, make free throws, grab offensive boards. As far as I can tell, we haven't really been doing that lately.

They also need to work harder to get Hibbert the ball in good position. Posting up 20 feet away from the basket isn't gonna do it. It's the perfect way to get the big fella tired without much result (except for turnovers and missed shots).

graphic-er
02-12-2012, 01:50 AM
I just paraphrase what I said from the other post game thread.

This team needs to recommit to playing scrappy defense. They have been so focused on trying to play offense, and who scores, and how they score. They have lost the overall team focus. That's being a smash mouth defensive team. I would have put Lawson on his *** the first time he drove and jumped into me.

I agree with you, they just aren't getting deflections and steals. Nor are they getting O-rebounds.

I remember just a couple weeks ago Danny Granger making a bone headed turn over and making up for it immediately on the other end with a steal or a block. Tonight he had some terrible pass where he over shot Hibbert and Denver was off to the races. Danny trailed the play and looked like he was in position to block that shot. Instead he sagged off just a step once the ball handler was going to be partially challenged in the paint. BUT it was his stop to make if he wanted it.

They just gotta recommit to stingy tough D.

They aren't going to out score Miami. So they better out Defend them. You look at what this team did eariler in the year and it was all about Defense. The Lakers, The Warriors, The Bulls, The Mavericks...

Strummer
02-12-2012, 01:52 AM
I didn't think we looked THAT bad. We shot better from the field, the 3, and the free throw line. And we had 8 more assists. We lost because of transition defense, turnovers and rebounds. But mainly turnovers. We just need to keep our heads in the game.

I suspect the up tempo contributed to the high turnovers. We weren't playing our game. But any time we shoot over 50%, I'm not going to feel too bad about how we played.

graphic-er
02-12-2012, 02:09 AM
I didn't think we looked THAT bad. We shot better from the field, the 3, and the free throw line. And we had 8 more assists. We lost because of transition defense, turnovers and rebounds. But mainly turnovers. We just need to keep our heads in the game.

I suspect the up tempo contributed to the high turnovers. We weren't playing our game. But any time we shoot over 50%, I'm not going to feel too bad about how we played.

We weren't smashing mouths.

Peck
02-12-2012, 02:17 AM
I didn't think we looked THAT bad. We shot better from the field, the 3, and the free throw line. And we had 8 more assists. We lost because of transition defense, turnovers and rebounds. But mainly turnovers. We just need to keep our heads in the game.

I suspect the up tempo contributed to the high turnovers. We weren't playing our game. But any time we shoot over 50%, I'm not going to feel too bad about how we played.

Honestly our team is not built that way. We are not a high octane offensive machine, we are a grind it out beat you down defensive unit. At least we used to be, now our offense seems a little smoother but our defense seems to have collapsed.

Shooting over 50% just doesn't do it for me if I know the opponet is shooting more often and getting to the line more. Remember when we used to out shoot every team from the free throw line? Denver made more than we even attempted in that game. Some of it may be the refs. but I'm saying most of it is the fact that we have become a soft jump shooting team.

I guess asking for Paul George to be more of an offensive weapon may have come with the price that we don't ram it down the other teams neck anymore. Paul drives on occasion but both he and Danny have been pulling up for jumpers of late as well.

Need to get back to what got us here IMO.

Strummer
02-12-2012, 02:52 AM
Honestly our team is not built that way. We are not a high octane offensive machine, we are a grind it out beat you down defensive unit. At least we used to be, now our offense seems a little smoother but our defense seems to have collapsed.

Shooting over 50% just doesn't do it for me if I know the opponet is shooting more often and getting to the line more. Remember when we used to out shoot every team from the free throw line? Denver made more than we even attempted in that game. Some of it may be the refs. but I'm saying most of it is the fact that we have become a soft jump shooting team.

I guess asking for Paul George to be more of an offensive weapon may have come with the price that we don't ram it down the other teams neck anymore. Paul drives on occasion but both he and Danny have been pulling up for jumpers of late as well.

Need to get back to what got us here IMO.

I totally agree that we didn't play our game. We needed to slow the pace and make them play half court ball. Make them play against their strength.

But it looked like we either didn't know how to do that or weren't able to. We tried to have a shoot out with the highest scoring team in the league and we lost.

But I can live with that. We're a young team. Apparently controlling the tempo isn't something we know how to do. So the coaches have some work to do.

But at no time did I think we looked awful tonight. And without a few key turnovers there would be banana's dancing about our high powered offense. ;)

beast23
02-12-2012, 06:46 AM
I see a couple of things that are disturbing.

One, With each passing game, it seems like our opponent is being allowed to run more and more. Our guards appear to be scoring more, but I think they are also driving the ball more. IMO, we are not defensively compensating for this action, and it is leading to more breaks by our opponents. We then find ourselves momentarily mismatched with our non-guards trying to help contain quicker players in transition.

Two, I think we are settling for way too many perimeter jump shots. None of us complained when Granger and George were hitting the 3, but when it's not goig in, that is a different story.

I think we need to get back to a primarily inside-out offense, as opposed to taking so many first opportunity jumpers. Part of the reason this has happened is that Roy is unable/unwilling to establish proper low-post, or our timing has just sucked in getting him the ball often enough when he does have position.

I think that some of this lack of success could be alleviated by a greater use of DWest in low post sets. DWest obviously has an excellent PnP/PnR and mid-range game going right now, and he has also been very successful posting up. I think we should make good use of his current success and take some of the post pressure off of Roy. We will need to conserve a bit as the season progresses and not just continue to wear him down.

CJ Jones
02-12-2012, 07:04 AM
Good post... I'll add that the demeanor and body language has changed from some of the players. All the defensive breakdowns and the low effort is really disturbing to me because it looks like it's a lack of focus. I'm hoping Danny's mad because Frank ripped them a new one... they deserve it.

Love Karl's comment too. He's a hell of a coach. Hopefully the players and Vogel use it as motivation.

D-BONE
02-12-2012, 08:16 AM
Good point on the demeanor. I brought it up back in the Griz post-game thread, and it's really plagued us since the ORL game last Sat. night.

You could blame the compressed schedule, except that's essentially a mutual disadvantage for everyone. I can see a game or two here or there where you're flat, but this is a 5 game run (I'm including Utah where we had good, but also awful stretches) where your body language communicates lethargy, lack of focus, and the team identify (style of play) is nowhere to be found.

Miami is going to require a monumental defensive effort unless they are all cold. The type of D we played early on. Good test at this point. If they blow us out again (at home this time) my concern level will move up another level.

Peck, great point on West's lack of lateral quickness and how it takes away from our D. I'm glad to see his offensive game possibly stabilizing. No doubt we need it, but we have to find a way to compensate for his limited athleticism. He's also slow up and down the court and has had games where he has good post position, but just can't get enough elevation to take advantage. Hopefully, this last thing is still improving as he recuperates from the injury. But, if there's one achilles heal with him, that will be it - the athletic limitations. If we had another long/athletic big to pair with he and Roy, who has some similar issues, it would really help.

Personally, still think we need another impact addition to the team. I'm open right now to any of the following - spot-up shooting specialist, instant offense wing, strong, athletic 4 or 5 (or hybrid), floor general, pass first, defensive minded PG.

Larry Staverman
02-12-2012, 11:20 AM
The worst part about all of this is that we have Miami staring at us on Tuesday night and while it is not a guaranteed loss, it will not be a walk in the park either.


I am considering the Miami game a must win with no excuses.

We have lost 3 in a row and will have 3 days rest after playing at home and Miami will be playing it's 3rd game in 3 nights on the road.

If we can't beat Miami at home under these circumstances then the Pacers are not one of the top teams in the East.

Jon Theodore
02-12-2012, 11:40 AM
Interesting game to say the least, I had the best seats I've ever had. I was in section 5, 1st row behind the broadcasters rocking the Roy Hibbert All Star jersey. It was a very interesting experience being so close, hearing the players communicate, etc.

Everytime Lance checked in I was shouting "MVP" which as Peck said, he was essentially our MVP tonight.

Hansbrough seems absolutely and utterly dejected. The guy was hanging his head on the way back through the tunnel at the half and at the end of the game. Hansbrough was the ONLY player who wouldn't shake anybodys hand. Kudos to Lance, Dahntay, Paul George, and Hibbert for all being friendly with the fans even after the tough loss...these little things are important to the fans and this team needs all the help they can get. I have officially jumped off the Hansbrough bandwagon, seems he has an attitude issue right now and I will be absolutely thrilled for him to prove me wrong soon.

Lance needs 25 minutes a game, every single night...rain or shine. This guys passing continues to amaze me, the pass to D. Jones got quite a few people excited. His breakaway dunk was so nice to see...it was one of those plays that got his confidence going, which ended up leading to a great night for him.

Lou's alley oop dunk attempt was an absolute joke...GRAB IT AND LAY IT IN!!! We go to overtime tonight if Lou doesn't try to pretend to be Blake Griffin...there was no way he was going to hit that dunk and to throw it down with such extra force essentially guarantees the miss.

Foster/Hill are critically important to this team...and that is kind of scary. This team is coming back down to reality and I am worried the wheels are going to fall off if Miami has their way with us. I'll be at the Miami game also, really hope the boys can right this ship.

My extended family who consists of basically casual fans are just about to jump on board...a large group of us were at the game last night and I am certain a loss on Tuesday will probably have a lot of these casual fans "tuning back out."

BringJackBack
02-12-2012, 11:53 AM
One thing about our offense that was more apparent than ever last night is that our tempo hurts our percentages. In order to have a good half court offense you need two shooters (George and Danny when consistent), a play-maker (No one), and a post option (David or Roy even though Roy needs to be on his A-game)... Until we are good enough to use a half court offense at all times, we need to adjust and run a little bit more.

But even then I don't know how that would work because Darren slows things down every single time and can't take advantage of transition.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
02-12-2012, 12:11 PM
One thing about our offense that was more apparent than ever last night is that our tempo hurts our percentages. In order to have a good half court offense you need two shooters (George and Danny when consistent), a play-maker (No one), and a post option (David or Roy even though Roy needs to be on his A-game)... Until we are good enough to use a half court offense at all times, we need to adjust and run a little bit more.

But even then I don't know how that would work because Darren slows things down every single time and can't take advantage of transition.I disagree. Vogel has already asked the team to run more. One of the players mentioned it in a post game last week, I can't remember who. But I could definitely see the change in focus over the past week. We are focusing on running more (not our strength) and as a consequence our focus on tough d and physical play (which is our strength) has gone down. This is why were losing. Bring back the smashmouth!

CableKC
02-12-2012, 12:47 PM
Honestly our team is not built that way. We are not a high octane offensive machine, we are a grind it out beat you down defensive unit. At least we used to be, now our offense seems a little smoother but our defense seems to have collapsed.
This is what Sam Mitchell said in the NBATV Post Game segment. The Pacers were doing great going into the 2nd half with a 6 point lead....but they were playing the Nuggets game.......continuing...as you say...to run a high-octane offense that they are not accustomed to....but something that the Nuggets are totally capable of doing. In the end, the Nuggets won the game on their terms, simply outran and outgunned the Pacers.

CableKC
02-12-2012, 01:00 PM
But it looked like we either didn't know how to do that or weren't able to. We tried to have a shoot out with the highest scoring team in the league and we lost.

But I can live with that. We're a young team. Apparently controlling the tempo isn't something we know how to do. So the coaches have some work to do.

But at no time did I think we looked awful tonight. And without a few key turnovers there would be banana's dancing about our high powered offense. ;)
This is not something that I would live with.

The Nuggets are not only the top scoring Team in the League, they are the 2nd best shooting Team in the League.

Guess what? the Pacers are a "middle of the road" scoring Team while being the 25th worst shooting Teams in the League.

The Pacers tried to do something that they are not good at....outgun a Team that's way better at scoring than we are.

As Peck said.....we didn't play our game...we played their game....which was one of the worst things that we could have done.

able
02-12-2012, 01:05 PM
Roy looks tired, I agree, did you see him run up and down the court to be ignored 8 times in a row on every break he was there, heck they would have had to reanimate me after the second! (ok the 1st but who really cares)

Roy get's position, he just don't get the ball.
West is taking time off on defense since he can move lateral on offense, no two ways about it.

Hansbrough is too busy moaning to the refs and trying to get the ball out of anyone's hand that he has no clue how to run a fast break and jumps on top of his teammates for a rebound when there are only Pacers contending it.

The look in Lance's eyes has me worried more then anything, his reactions and his actions makes me fear there is something fundamentally wrong with him, which has nothing to do with his basketball skills. but if you look at his reaction on Granger hitting the 3 with under 1 minute to bring us within 3, and no not the howling, but the look in his eyes after that, shiver.

Our strength is our size, which lends itself for half-court setups, not running with the devil, all you do is wear out West and Hibbert in those windsprints, fighting big man for position is taking enough out of anyone to not have to add that running around to it.

Stop the JOB ball, please!

P.S. I am not worried, we are at BEST a top 4 seed but at least one year away from being a contender so I don't judge the team on that, 38 wins is fine for me, anything more is icing on the cake, homecourt in the playoffs yes please, but I am not seeing us in the finals yet.

They wanted it more? you bet your arse, they just lost 5 in a row! they better want it more!

CJ Jones
02-12-2012, 01:08 PM
Lance needs 25 minutes a game, every single night...rain or shine. This guys passing continues to amaze me, the pass to D. Jones got quite a few people excited. His breakaway dunk was so nice to see...it was one of those plays that got his confidence going, which ended up leading to a great night for him.



D. Jones thought it was nice too. You could tell by the look on his face after the layup.

BringJackBack
02-12-2012, 01:13 PM
I disagree. Vogel has already asked the team to run more. One of the players mentioned it in a post game last week, I can't remember who. But I could definitely see the change in focus over the past week. We are focusing on running more (not our strength) and as a consequence our focus on tough d and physical play (which is our strength) has gone down. This is why were losing. Bring back the smashmouth!

To me it looks like half-court perimeter play, which is the exact opposite approach we should have. I don't see running, I just see a whole lot of passing around the perimeter with some PnR's and high post ********. We almost always run the clock down, but it ends up being a terrible shot because neither West nor especially Roy receive the ball enough anymore.

beast23
02-12-2012, 01:23 PM
To me it looks like half-court perimeter play, which is the exact opposite approach we should have. I don't see running, I just see a whole lot of passing around the perimeter with some PnR's and high post ********. We almost always run the clock down, but it ends up being a terrible shot because neither West nor especially Roy receive the ball enough anymore.
I think that they receive the ball regularly. Unfortunately, I don't see them receiving the ball early enough in good position. It seems to me if we are going to play a half-court game then they need to establish good position in the low post earlier in the shot clock and then be fortunate enough to actually receive a decent entry pass from which they can "do something".

Once the clock is down to 5-6 seconds, unless the entry pass is going to lead to lead directly to a favorable shot attempt, the entry pass may as well not be made to Roy. I say that because Roy will usually spend 3-4 seconds jockeying to get up his shot.

I think both Roy and West would be shooting at a higher percentage if the entry pass were made earlier. That way, they have the option of passing out rather than being forced to put up the shot. And quite frankly, late in the shot clock, I would rather see one of our perimeter players put up a perimeter 3 against lighter coverage than see Roy or DWest being forced to put up a shot against a double-team/heavy coverage.

Strummer
02-12-2012, 01:27 PM
This is not something that I would live with.

The Nuggets are not only the top scoring Team in the League, they are the 2nd best shooting Team in the League.

Guess what? the Pacers are a "middle of the road" scoring Team while being the 25th worst shooting Teams in the League.

The Pacers tried to do something that they are not good at....outgun a Team that's way better at scoring than we are.

As Peck said.....we didn't play our game...we played their game....which was one of the worst things that we could have done.

It's a learning experience. We're a young team that's going to make mistakes and have set backs. That shouldn't surprise anyone but the most casual fans.

The early season success seems to have made everyone forget that we're still developing. We got hot early so now we have to win every game or it's the end of the world? That's silly.

We all agree that the Pacers played the Nuggets game. And hopefully they learned from that. But why is it so awful for the Pacers to make that mistake? How do they learn without making that mistake? Better coaching? I think the young coaching staff is doing a great job. More practice? No time for that this year.

I've enjoyed watching the Pacers for nearly 40 years. When they were a veteran team I enjoyed watching them play the same game night after night. They knew their strengths and weaknesses and what worked and what didn't.

Now they're a young team. They don't have a history of winning. They're still feeling each other out. And guess what, it's gonna be that way for the rest of the season. But I can enjoy watching that process. I can enjoy watching them learn and develop. That's what you get with a young team.

And we've got a young coaching staff. They didn't seem to know how to rein the players in last night. And since we had a nice lead early, they probably felt like they shouldn't. But that's ok, as long as they figure it out for next time. That's part of the process for them too.

You can't live with this? Wow. Sucks to be you. :D

CJ Jones
02-12-2012, 01:40 PM
The look in Lance's eyes has me worried more then anything, his reactions and his actions makes me fear there is something fundamentally wrong with him, which has nothing to do with his basketball skills. but if you look at his reaction on Granger hitting the 3 with under 1 minute to bring us within 3, and no not the howling, but the look in his eyes after that, shiver.




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:D... I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself, but this sounds like a ridiculous conclusion to come to from watching the TV from your couch.

Brad8888
02-12-2012, 01:52 PM
So, slow it down, play within yourselves, don't press too hard due to rising expectations, let the game come to you, trust each other on both ends of the court, allow the chemistry of the team to develop.

Young teams experience this. Good young teams overcome this in the long run to become great young teams (Thunder).

Here's hoping that the Pacers become a great young team! :gopacers:

PaceBalls
02-12-2012, 02:42 PM
The look in Lance's eyes has me worried more then anything, his reactions and his actions makes me fear there is something fundamentally wrong with him, which has nothing to do with his basketball skills. but if you look at his reaction on Granger hitting the 3 with under 1 minute to bring us within 3, and no not the howling, but the look in his eyes after that, shiver.


:laugh:

I saw that too! It was like Berserker rage!

:braveheart:

Wait, are you serious?

Sookie
02-12-2012, 03:03 PM
It's really easy to get sucked into Denver's style of play. Especially for a young team.

Ty Lawson, looks ridiculously strong. Like I swear his body mass is the same as AJ and DC's put together. I didn't notice how short he was because of how strong he looked.

That being said, the defense surrounding him was terrible. DC's improved defensively, but he's not good. AJ's been really really good defensively this entire year, but even he struggled to keep Lawson in front of him.

That said, the biggest problem, as always, came on the PnR. Our bigs, other than Foster, are just awful with it. Roy's just too slow and Amundson doesn't know what to do with himself. Tyler hedges off the PG well, but doesn't recover to his man quick enough, and West recovers to his man, but flat out gets in our PG's way (or Paul George's). Really really bad.

AJ, if we're going to throw out a lineup of Tyler, Lou/Foster, Lance, and Dahntay, he's going to have to shoot. I know everyone has their ideal of what they want the point guard to do, but you have to look at the reality of the situation. There's no perimeter offense, unless a streaky (at best) AJ gets it going.

I know spacing the court has become a bad word here. But it is needed. We threw the ball to Tyler, 4 people were covering Tyler...and Dahntay's guy was hedging between staying on Dahntay and heading towards Tyler.

Dahntay, although improved shooting wise, would prefer to drive to the basket, as would Lance. Lou/Foster simply aren't going to score from the perimeter. If AJ's taking and making his open shots (which he's getting, because the team's defense is entirely focused on Tyler) the offense becomes much smoother. AJ was able to make two really nice passes (Tyler was able to get an +1 on one, and I think he got fouled on another) to Tyler because he (AJ) had proven that he was worth guarding. (So, he needs to keep proving it)

I think AJ is most likely to succeed in a situation where he isn't forced to look for his shot (Like when Hill was on the floor) and he can simply run the offense and pick his opportunities. The reality is, he isn't in that situation. And asking Lance to supply the perimeter offense is just plain unfair.

Now onto Lance. I'm still not impressed with his game. He's not so much a combo guard as he is a "nopo" He doesn't have a position. He's incapable of running an offense for a variety of reasons (which we've been through) and struggles (although has improved) at moving without the ball, he hasn't proven he can shoot. And really, needs to be in transition to do anything positive.

That being said, he is quite good in a transition game. And something I hadn't expected was the amount of positive energy and effort he brings to games. He's not a good defender, but if the rest of the team put in the amount of effort on the defensive end that Lance puts in we'd be one heck of a defensive team, and the result of his effort is usually one or two good defensive stops. I like seeing effort out of players, it's why..despite his shortcomings, I adore Tyler. But at the end of the day, the bench rotation needs to be AJ/Hill/Dahntay/Tyler/Jeff (hopefully). We can't afford to not play a point guard and Hill is easily the better shooting guard. Lance needs to develop in a position before he's ready for playoffs and the like. Short memories have forgotten the struggles the bench was having before GH's injury, we were going to lose these games anyway because when the Pacers won, it's pretty much always been the starters.

Roy, is obviously struggling right now. I don't believe Vogel has changed the offense. Sure, he wants to run a bit when possible, but that's just adding another weapon to our team. We should be running when possible. That doesn't change the fact that Roy's struggling in the half court.

I'm not too worried though. Vogel's in tune with the players. Most likely, he'll make it a point to get the ball to Roy. And he's good at building their confidence up, which is usually what Roy needs. I do think Roy still needs to toughen up, physically and mentally.

That said, every single one of our players has gone through an up and down patch this season. This is Roy's first. Guy's go in funks, and guys pop out of them. He'll be okay, he's just got to play through it.

Danny, it's nice to see Danny has his shot back, but for some reason his defense went with it. How many times is someone going to go backdoor on him? I'd rather him focusing his energy on defense.

PG has been in a funk right with Roy. But it's a long season, he's very young, and he's shown a lot of improvement this season. He'll be fine.

DC, I think he's done quite well this season. But he struggled last night. Lawson is a really tough matchup for him. DC's not a good defender, and Lawson is significantly stronger - and might be just as fast. Then Ty started making jump shots and it was all over.

and then when we'd switch PG onto Ty, and DC onto Andre...Andre would post him up. Rough game. He's been very good this season as well, and is allowed to struggle. In fact, considering how many minutes he's had to play the entire season, I'm surprised he's not struggling more.

Kobe Jones. He's turned himself into a valuable role player off the bench. Although sometimes the bench unit could use him going all Kobe on the other team, I like the more subdued version. You can just tell he's an excellent teammate.

West, like Danny his offense has been great, but his defense..not so much. And he's a vet, who has played on a good team, he should know better. I tend to give him leeway on certain things, because, as I've repeated, people coming off of knee injuries go through their ups and downs. But I've felt like there's an effort problem on the defense and rebounding side of things, which wasn't there earlier in the season. Maybe he's just worn out (I don't really buy that because of his offense.) But effort matters to me. I can forgive Lance, DC and Tyler for their defensive mishaps because I know the effort is there. They're just usually lost or physically unable to defend well for whatever reason. Lack of effort bothers me.

Lou...oh Lou. Vogel was cracking me up when he didn't care that Lou kept fouling. :laugh:

Now onto Frank. I adore Frank, and I think he's done a wonderful job, but he's hit a snug here. I understand the reason for some of the things he's doing. (IE: instead of staggering the bench in with the starters, he's playing each as a unit. I can see not wanting to mess with the starters chemistry) But he needs to get better with the timeouts. And I do think he needs to consider subbing when things go south. (Like he did last night, when he inserted AJ and Dahntay in for DC and PG.) Although, that's still debatable and I understand his reasoning for not doing so.

At the end of the day, we've lost these three games because of defense, rebounding and turnovers. Easily fixable, but suggests a lack of mental focus more than anything.

PaceBalls
02-12-2012, 04:06 PM
That entry pass by AJ to Tyler was great and is something we have not seen much of this year. Our guys are terrible at feeding the post and probably receiving the ball when the big is being fronted. Seeing how so much of our offense is based on post play. They really need to figure that out.

Paul George is the worst. He makes terrible entry passes.

tflo
02-12-2012, 04:27 PM
Danny Granger: C Could have been much higher, but 5 turnovers and only 2 rebounds tends to drag your grade down when the team loses. Cory Brewer also looked like Bernard King for awhile tonight and while I donít say Danny played horrid defense like some will, I wonít say he played good defense either. As he walked off of the court tonight he threw his towel hard into his seat and he looked very mad. Iím not sure about what either, and then I read that he refused to talk to the media. Donít know what happened there.

Danny had a great first half, but he didn't carry it over to the second half. Ever since I started to watch Granger play, I came to the conclusion that Danny feeds off momentum. I personally think he sat on the bench way too long and it took all his momentum away.

PacersRule
02-12-2012, 04:45 PM
Interesting game to say the least, I had the best seats I've ever had. I was in section 5, 1st row behind the broadcasters rocking the Roy Hibbert All Star jersey. It was a very interesting experience being so close, hearing the players communicate, etc.


Dude I saw you from the section above! I was saying to myself this guy must be a fan, already rocking Hibbert's all star jersey only a few days after it was announced.

This was the first game that I went to this season and I honestly thought we were going to win after PG sunk the two 3s and DC and West had the and-1's.. Kinda disappointed but still had fun. Saw Brook Ozendam (spelling?) before the pregame show and asked if I could take a pic with her and she was really nice. She looks hotter and thinner in person, but also seemed tired for some reason. Saw Croshere up close for the first time and thought to myself these NBA players are so freakin tall! I think I also saw Peck, Roaming Gnome and a few others talking near the front entrance as I was passing by after the game ended. Anyway had a great time too bad we lost and dreading the heat right now...

Jon Theodore
02-12-2012, 06:05 PM
Dude I saw you from the section above! I was saying to myself this guy must be a fan, already rocking Hibbert's all star jersey only a few days after it was announced.




Hah, I DVR'ed the game and I was on TV quite a bit. My girlfriend was wearing a Hansbrough jersey sitting next to me. There was a funny moment when they were reviewing Hibberts "save" from out of bounds near the end of the game, you can see me standing, harrasing the refs and my girl trying to pull me down. :laugh: I just couldn't resist the urge to scream "Somebody throw a beer." Quite a few people around me found it funny, my girlfriend not so much. What can I say? I live in Tennessee so when I come to a game, I am getting my moneys worth.

Also, before the game started I was standing and Roy did a double take when he saw my Jersey...it was before Bird presented it with him on the floor. It seemed as if Roy hadn't even seen the jersey yet.

NewEra
02-12-2012, 06:21 PM
Hah, I DVR'ed the game and I was on TV quite a bit. My girlfriend was wearing a Hansbrough jersey sitting next to me. There was a funny moment when they were reviewing Hibberts "save" from out of bounds near the end of the game, you can see me standing, harrasing the refs and my girl trying to pull me down. :laugh: I just couldn't resist the urge to scream "Somebody throw a beer." Quite a few people around me found it funny, my girlfriend not so much. What can I say? I live in Tennessee so when I come to a game, I am getting my moneys worth.

Also, before the game started I was standing and Roy did a double take when he saw my Jersey...it was before Bird presented it with him on the floor. It seemed as if Roy hadn't even seen the jersey yet.


I sat right by you Theodore I was in the Paul george jersey a couple seats to your left. Loved the Hibbert jersey. It was my first and most likely last time I will ever sit front row at The Bank. Unbelievable experience being that close to the action. Two things that stood out to me was how massive Al harrington really is and the size of Koufus humungous nose.

Asher99
02-12-2012, 06:50 PM
Hansbrough is too busy moaning to the refs and trying to get the ball out of anyone's hand that he has no clue how to run a fast break and jumps on top of his teammates for a rebound when there are only Pacers contending it.

Wouldn't he be getting more boards if this was true. Dude has only 11 rebounds in last 4 games 5 of them came on the offensive end.

Asher99
02-12-2012, 07:03 PM
FGA/PPG PER36
16.6/19.4 Danny
13.4/15.7 Roy
12.9/14.9 West
12.4/9.8 Price
12.3/14.5 Tyler

Jon Theodore
02-12-2012, 07:24 PM
I sat right by you Theodore I was in the Paul george jersey a couple seats to your left. Loved the Hibbert jersey. It was my first and most likely last time I will ever sit front row at The Bank. Unbelievable experience being that close to the action. Two things that stood out to me was how massive Al harrington really is and the size of Koufus humungous nose.

Yeah I remember you, you were with 3 other guys right? You guys were cracking me up, my kind of guys! More fans need to "bring it" like WE did. I was glad I was not the only one being a little obnoxious. :laugh::laugh:

I'll be at the Miami game and then it's back home to Nashville for me. I'll be rocking the Hibbert All Star Jersey in section 14, row 17.

Eleazar
02-12-2012, 07:44 PM
FGA/PPG PER36
16.6/19.4 Danny
13.4/15.7 Roy
12.9/14.9 West
12.4/9.8 Price
12.3/14.5 Tyler

Yes we know you hate Price, and wish he would die a horrible death.

doctor-h
02-12-2012, 07:48 PM
I always agree with most of what Peck says but DC never runs the team well. He is not a true point guard. He is a pretty good player but that is it. We have not seen a true good point guard in this town in so long, I think alot of people have forgotten what one looks like. Until we get one, the team will be inconsistent. Players will not play up to their potential regularly and the team will stay mediocre. If someone like Jeremy Lin can make Jeffries and Novak look really good just imagine what he could do with Granger or George or Hansbrough or Hibbert. Wake up Indy, we will see the glimpses of what it could be with the group we have but we will not take the next step until we get a real point guard. Just imagine Deron Williams on this team. We could be contenders right away.

doctor-h
02-12-2012, 07:57 PM
It's really easy to get sucked into Denver's style of play. Especially for a young team.

Ty Lawson, looks ridiculously strong. Like I swear his body mass is the same as AJ and DC's put together. I didn't notice how short he was because of how strong he looked.

That being said, the defense surrounding him was terrible. DC's improved defensively, but he's not good. AJ's been really really good defensively this entire year, but even he struggled to keep Lawson in front of him.

That said, the biggest problem, as always, came on the PnR. Our bigs, other than Foster, are just awful with it. Roy's just too slow and Amundson doesn't know what to do with himself. Tyler hedges off the PG well, but doesn't recover to his man quick enough, and West recovers to his man, but flat out gets in our PG's way (or Paul George's). Really really bad.

AJ, if we're going to throw out a lineup of Tyler, Lou/Foster, Lance, and Dahntay, he's going to have to shoot. I know everyone has their ideal of what they want the point guard to do, but you have to look at the reality of the situation. There's no perimeter offense, unless a streaky (at best) AJ gets it going.

I know spacing the court has become a bad word here. But it is needed. We threw the ball to Tyler, 4 people were covering Tyler...and Dahntay's guy was hedging between staying on Dahntay and heading towards Tyler.

Dahntay, although improved shooting wise, would prefer to drive to the basket, as would Lance. Lou/Foster simply aren't going to score from the perimeter. If AJ's taking and making his open shots (which he's getting, because the team's defense is entirely focused on Tyler) the offense becomes much smoother. AJ was able to make two really nice passes (Tyler was able to get an +1 on one, and I think he got fouled on another) to Tyler because he (AJ) had proven that he was worth guarding. (So, he needs to keep proving it)

I think AJ is most likely to succeed in a situation where he isn't forced to look for his shot (Like when Hill was on the floor) and he can simply run the offense and pick his opportunities. The reality is, he isn't in that situation. And asking Lance to supply the perimeter offense is just plain unfair.

Now onto Lance. I'm still not impressed with his game. He's not so much a combo guard as he is a "nopo" He doesn't have a position. He's incapable of running an offense for a variety of reasons (which we've been through) and struggles (although has improved) at moving without the ball, he hasn't proven he can shoot. And really, needs to be in transition to do anything positive.

That being said, he is quite good in a transition game. And something I hadn't expected was the amount of positive energy and effort he brings to games. He's not a good defender, but if the rest of the team put in the amount of effort on the defensive end that Lance puts in we'd be one heck of a defensive team, and the result of his effort is usually one or two good defensive stops. I like seeing effort out of players, it's why..despite his shortcomings, I adore Tyler. But at the end of the day, the bench rotation needs to be AJ/Hill/Dahntay/Tyler/Jeff (hopefully). We can't afford to not play a point guard and Hill is easily the better shooting guard. Lance needs to develop in a position before he's ready for playoffs and the like. Short memories have forgotten the struggles the bench was having before GH's injury, we were going to lose these games anyway because when the Pacers won, it's pretty much always been the starters.

Roy, is obviously struggling right now. I don't believe Vogel has changed the offense. Sure, he wants to run a bit when possible, but that's just adding another weapon to our team. We should be running when possible. That doesn't change the fact that Roy's struggling in the half court.

I'm not too worried though. Vogel's in tune with the players. Most likely, he'll make it a point to get the ball to Roy. And he's good at building their confidence up, which is usually what Roy needs. I do think Roy still needs to toughen up, physically and mentally.

That said, every single one of our players has gone through an up and down patch this season. This is Roy's first. Guy's go in funks, and guys pop out of them. He'll be okay, he's just got to play through it.

Danny, it's nice to see Danny has his shot back, but for some reason his defense went with it. How many times is someone going to go backdoor on him? I'd rather him focusing his energy on defense.

PG has been in a funk right with Roy. But it's a long season, he's very young, and he's shown a lot of improvement this season. He'll be fine.

DC, I think he's done quite well this season. But he struggled last night. Lawson is a really tough matchup for him. DC's not a good defender, and Lawson is significantly stronger - and might be just as fast. Then Ty started making jump shots and it was all over.

and then when we'd switch PG onto Ty, and DC onto Andre...Andre would post him up. Rough game. He's been very good this season as well, and is allowed to struggle. In fact, considering how many minutes he's had to play the entire season, I'm surprised he's not struggling more.

Kobe Jones. He's turned himself into a valuable role player off the bench. Although sometimes the bench unit could use him going all Kobe on the other team, I like the more subdued version. You can just tell he's an excellent teammate.

West, like Danny his offense has been great, but his defense..not so much. And he's a vet, who has played on a good team, he should know better. I tend to give him leeway on certain things, because, as I've repeated, people coming off of knee injuries go through their ups and downs. But I've felt like there's an effort problem on the defense and rebounding side of things, which wasn't there earlier in the season. Maybe he's just worn out (I don't really buy that because of his offense.) But effort matters to me. I can forgive Lance, DC and Tyler for their defensive mishaps because I know the effort is there. They're just usually lost or physically unable to defend well for whatever reason. Lack of effort bothers me.

Lou...oh Lou. Vogel was cracking me up when he didn't care that Lou kept fouling. :laugh:

Now onto Frank. I adore Frank, and I think he's done a wonderful job, but he's hit a snug here. I understand the reason for some of the things he's doing. (IE: instead of staggering the bench in with the starters, he's playing each as a unit. I can see not wanting to mess with the starters chemistry) But he needs to get better with the timeouts. And I do think he needs to consider subbing when things go south. (Like he did last night, when he inserted AJ and Dahntay in for DC and PG.) Although, that's still debatable and I understand his reasoning for not doing so.

At the end of the day, we've lost these three games because of defense, rebounding and turnovers. Easily fixable, but suggests a lack of mental focus more than anything.

Lance definitely has a position and possible two. He is a good jump shooter. Anybody that has saw him play elsewhere knows that. When Granger was the worst shooter in the league to start the season, did you honestly think he would remain that bad. He is a good shooter and we knew he would get better. He has gotten plenty of minutes to get out of his slump. Lance has not. When the game slows down for Lance, he will show that he is a much better shooter than he has shown. I think he gets too anxious and mentally not shooting well will make you hesitate. Let him play his way out of it. The alternative is Price who is shooting it just as bad or worse.

Asher99
02-12-2012, 08:03 PM
Yes we know you hate Price, and wish he would die a horrible death.

I don't hate any player but he has no business shooting that often, he went from not playing to taking 15.5 shots PER 36 this month in 7 games. Those numbers speak for themselves as he's taking shots at the 4th highest clip but is scoring at the 9th highest rate despite a perfect season from the line so if you use per 36 makes he's tied with Lou for dead last.

Sookie
02-12-2012, 09:21 PM
Lance definitely has a position and possible two. He is a good jump shooter. Anybody that has saw him play elsewhere knows that. When Granger was the worst shooter in the league to start the season, did you honestly think he would remain that bad. He is a good shooter and we knew he would get better. He has gotten plenty of minutes to get out of his slump. Lance has not. When the game slows down for Lance, he will show that he is a much better shooter than he has shown. I think he gets too anxious and mentally not shooting well will make you hesitate. Let him play his way out of it. The alternative is Price who is shooting it just as bad or worse.

I wasn't saying he isn't a completely SG just because he couldn't shoot. Plenty of SG's can't shoot. But he doesn't move well without the ball, and he doesn't attack the basket well in a half court offense, and he's not a defensive stopper.

He had a nice midrange game in college, which'll hopefully come out.

Right now, he's bringing energy/effort, and doing well in transition. The problem with him is he needs the ball in his hands in order to be "effective" (which, in the half court, he's not even effective) and he's not capable of running an offense (although is capable of the flashy pass) but he also doesn't know what to do off the ball.

He looks better as an SG, because the PG (Hill or AJ) picks Lance's opportunities with the ball in his hands for them, but he's not doing any of the things that really effective shooting guards do either.

I think it'll be easier for him to develop into an SG. But he's not there yet.

edit: I really wish you would look at what's going on in the floor instead of looking at stats, re: AJ's shots. The starters, play with five other people capable of scoring. Of course it's spread out more. The bench unit has one "scorer" in Tyler, and that's become really difficult to score from, because no one else is scoring. AJ has been taking open shots, and "end of the shot clock" shots.

I know you want Tyler to get the ball more. And Price tries to get him the ball, almost every time down the floor. (And fact, he's probably the best guard at getting the ball down low) But because of the lack of scoring from everyone else, the other team's entire defensive strategy is to zone in on Tyler.

And regardless Your stats show that AJ is taking a shot once every three minutes. That's probably close to once every 7-8 possessions. That really isn't that often for someone who is likely considered by the coaching staff and players to be the second option when he's in with the entire bench unit.

JEM
02-12-2012, 09:53 PM
I am not liking that Hansbrough is getting so few minutes now. I understood as much during his struggles but he has been playing well pretty lately and there is really now reason for him not to be back up to 25 minutes again and with a player like Hansbrough alot can happen in the 5-8 extra minutes.

doctor-h
02-12-2012, 10:42 PM
I wasn't saying he isn't a completely SG just because he couldn't shoot. Plenty of SG's can't shoot. But he doesn't move well without the ball, and he doesn't attack the basket well in a half court offense, and he's not a defensive stopper.

He had a nice midrange game in college, which'll hopefully come out.

Right now, he's bringing energy/effort, and doing well in transition. The problem with him is he needs the ball in his hands in order to be "effective" (which, in the half court, he's not even effective) and he's not capable of running an offense (although is capable of the flashy pass) but he also doesn't know what to do off the ball.

He looks better as an SG, because the PG (Hill or AJ) picks Lance's opportunities with the ball in his hands for them, but he's not doing any of the things that really effective shooting guards do either.

I think it'll be easier for him to develop into an SG. But he's not there yet.

edit: I really wish you would look at what's going on in the floor instead of looking at stats, re: AJ's shots. The starters, play with five other people capable of scoring. Of course it's spread out more. The bench unit has one "scorer" in Tyler, and that's become really difficult to score from, because no one else is scoring. AJ has been taking open shots, and "end of the shot clock" shots.

I know you want Tyler to get the ball more. And Price tries to get him the ball, almost every time down the floor. (And fact, he's probably the best guard at getting the ball down low) But because of the lack of scoring from everyone else, the other team's entire defensive strategy is to zone in on Tyler.

And regardless Your stats show that AJ is taking a shot once every three minutes. That's probably close to once every 7-8 possessions. That really isn't that often for someone who is likely considered by the coaching staff and players to be the second option when he's in with the entire bench unit.
How do you know he can't run a team at the point. He has not gotten an opportunity. We have two other so called point guards that can't run a team but they still get a chance to do it. As far as shooting guard, they are using him the same way they did George early in the season. Go stand in the corner while we run iso plays for other players. He can move without the ball and has shown that but it does no good when nobody delivers it on time and in the right spots. I am not saying that he will be great and not make mistakes, he will. But we will never know until he truly gets a chance to play and not have to look over his shoulder all the time to see if he is being taken out because he may make a mistake. George was not doing a whole lot early in the year until they showed some confidence in him and took the reigns off. I don't know what you mean about me being a stat guy, I am not that at all. Have you ever heard me quote stats?

Sookie
02-12-2012, 10:49 PM
How do you know he can't run a team at the point. He has not gotten an opportunity. We have two other so called point guards that can't run a team but they still get a chance to do it. As far as shooting guard, they are using him the same way they did George early in the season. Go stand in the corner while we run iso plays for other players. He can move without the ball and has shown that but it does no good when nobody delivers it on time and in the right spots. I am not saying that he will be great and not make mistakes, he will. But we will never know until he truly gets a chance to play and not have to look over his shoulder all the time to see if he is being taken out because he may make a mistake. George was not doing a whole lot early in the year until they showed some confidence in him and took the reigns off. I don't know what you mean about me being a stat guy, I am not that at all. Have you ever heard me quote stats?

He did get the opportunity. Then Vogel made a switch saying that Lance will primarily play the SG. He didn't say why, but I always thought it was pretty obvious because Lance wasn't doing well as a PG.

Since the switch, Lance has been significantly better.

doctor-h
02-12-2012, 11:04 PM
He did get the opportunity. Then Vogel made a switch saying that Lance will primarily play the SG. He didn't say why, but I always thought it was pretty obvious because Lance wasn't doing well as a PG.

Since the switch, Lance has been significantly better.

When did he get this opportunity. When he played point every other time down the floor while getting about 3 to 5 minutes a game. You call that a chance. If he got any opportunity at all it would have been early in the season when he wasn't playing well at all. Now he is doing much better and playing more under control. We need help at that position. Collison can't run a team at all. He can't get thru a screen on defense at all. Price is a better defender but is more interested in shooting than getting teammates involved. George Hill is the same kind of player as Collison but a much better defender and alot tougher but he is not a true point guard either. All they did with the switch was get Lance to play more under control. If you can learn to do that at SG, you can learn to do it at PG. I am not saying give him 30 minutes at the Point but give him enough time to settle in and see what he can do.

beast23
02-12-2012, 11:20 PM
I really can't comprehend all the advocacy for Lance.

When playing PG, he is at best a 3rd string PG. Hell, when Hill is playing, Lance is the #4 PG.

When Hill returns he will consume many of the minutes that Lance and Price are seeing right now. So, despite what some don't seem to realize is that Lance IS getting his chance. Right here, right now.

Some of you have seen Lance in a better setting than he has been provided here with the Pacers. I haven't. What I do see is an extremely good athlete who can be deceptive with the ball and who seems to have pretty good vision.

I haven't seen much beyond that. I can say that I would expect him to eventually be a pretty good defensive player. I'm not sure what he will become offensively.

Unfortunately, being a backcourt player, the Pacers do need him to begin making those improvements to warrant taking minutes from other players and giving them to Lance. I believe that once Hill returns that it will be abundantly clear that sufficient improvement has not been made to warrant those additional minutes.

doctor-h
02-12-2012, 11:39 PM
I really can't comprehend all the advocacy for Lance.

When playing PG, he is at best a 3rd string PG. Hell, when Hill is playing, Lance is the #4 PG.

When Hill returns he will consume many of the minutes that Lance and Price are seeing right now. So, despite what some don't seem to realize is that Lance IS getting his chance. Right here, right now.

Some of you have seen Lance in a better setting than he has been provided here with the Pacers. I haven't. What I do see is an extremely good athlete who can be deceptive with the ball and who seems to have pretty good vision.

I haven't seen much beyond that. I can say that I would expect him to eventually be a pretty good defensive player. I'm not sure what he will become offensively.

Unfortunately, being a backcourt player, the Pacers do need him to begin making those improvements to warrant taking minutes from other players and giving them to Lance. I believe that once Hill returns that it will be abundantly clear that sufficient improvement has not been made to warrant those additional minutes.

You can't be a 4th string PG on a team that only might have 1 PG to begin with. When Hill comes back it will be AJ that goes to the bench. Lance will play better with Hill because Hill will share the ball. Last year everyone said Lance could not play defense, he worked very hard in the summer came back and you can see he has improved tremendously on defense. His strong suit has always been his offensive game. He can score in a number of ways. He feeds the post better than anyone we have right now. He runs the break better than anyone we have now. He will also rebound from that position. The Nuggets game, when Lawson was making Collison look like a fool, it would have been nice to see a change putting Lance at the point for a period and see if he could punish Lawson by posting him up. He would have guarded Lawson better because he would have gotten thru screens. This is just my opinion. He has got to grow as a player just as Roy did and George has to do. If he can start that now he could be a huge plus for us in the playoffs. People on this board are always talking about plus/minus stats. If you believe in that stat look at Lance's stat the last few games.

CJ Jones
02-13-2012, 12:19 AM
He did get the opportunity. Then Vogel made a switch saying that Lance will primarily play the SG. He didn't say why, but I always thought it was pretty obvious because Lance wasn't doing well as a PG.


I was debating this with someone the other day. Didn't the announcement come right after Hill went down? If so, wouldn't moving AJ into the rotation and leaving Lance to play all the SG minutes be the logical move? It might have been a demotion, but I'm not so sure.

I guess we'll all find out when Hill comes back. I can't imagine they'd bench Lance after him buying in to the new role and playing pretty well at times. If they did, I wonder how badly that would affect his confidence?

Sookie
02-13-2012, 12:25 AM
I was debating this with someone the other day. Didn't the announcement come right after Hill went down? If so, wouldn't moving AJ into the rotation and leaving Lance to play all the SG minutes be the logical move? It might have been a demotion, but I'm not so sure.

I guess we'll all find out when Hill comes back. I can't imagine they'd bench Lance after him buying in to the new role and playing pretty well at times. If they did, I wonder how badly that would affect his confidence?

No, Vogel made that announcement after the Miami game. (Although it was clear he had made the switch during the Miami game.)

The problem is, and I agree, Lance has brought a lot of positive energy. He's not a point guard. Nor is Hill. So if we want our bench to run well, it's going to need to be AJ and Hill together. Our bench was struggling before Hill went down, because it didn't have a point guard.

Still, I understand it's hard to bench a young guy whose putting in a lot of energy and effort into his role. It's just whether you want the team to be better this year and heading into the playoffs or not or whether you want to develop Lance more.

graphic-er
02-13-2012, 12:47 AM
AJ Price is stealing Lance's shot attempts. I think AJ does it on purpose, he wants to move up on the depth chart.

Eleazar
02-13-2012, 01:00 AM
AJ Price is stealing Lance's shot attempts. I think AJ does it on purpose, he wants to move up on the depth chart.

Have you watched any games so far this year? Some people have fallen so in love with the possibility of Lance becoming out starting PG in the future they are blind to the current truths.

beast23
02-13-2012, 01:01 AM
His strong suit has always been his offensive game. He can score in a number of ways. He feeds the post better than anyone we have right now. He runs the break better than anyone we have now. He will also rebound from that position.
I presume you do realize that your position is not something that Vogel and TPTB agree with? Right?

Otherwise, if Lance were "that good", would it not be obvious to you that Vogel would have him in the starting lineup. Therefore, I must conclude that either Vogel is incredibly stupid, or that perhaps your perspective is more than just a bit biased.

Personally, I'm a fundamentalist. I see no more value in the "flashy" pass than I do in the standard, every day ordinary entry pass to the post. I think that some folks are fooled by flash and for some reason put more value in it. Kind of like monstrous dunks versus layups.

I don't care about the fact that Lance is able to accomplish some of his passes with flair. I don't award points for style. All I want to see is consistency in all things that he does, just like I expect from any other player.

Folks can talk about how 20-25 minutes per game would be the best thing for Lance. I would agree. Playing significant minutes would be the best thing to develop his game. Unfortunately, Lance playing 20-25 minutes per game would not be the best thing to benefit the TEAM. Therefore, if Lance needs far more minutes to develop, the best place for him to get them would be in the D-league, because he has done nothing to earn or warrant those minutes at this time.

CJ Jones
02-13-2012, 01:58 AM
[QUOTE]No, Vogel made that announcement after the Miami game. (Although it was clear he had made the switch during the Miami game.)

I don't think this is correct. The two games after the Miami game (which was only game 5) Lance played his most minutes. Vs Philly he got 14 minutes, and I remember him guarding Jrue Holiday some. Then the next game was probably Lance's best game of his career. He had the ball in his hands at PG for a large portion of his season high 18 minutes. The switch seems much more recent than that.




Still, I understand it's hard to bench a young guy whose putting in a lot of energy and effort into his role. It's just whether you want the team to be better this year and heading into the playoffs or not or whether you want to develop Lance more.

I agree we'd probably be a better team right now with Price, but I'm not so sure we'd be a better team by the time post season rolls around.

If Lance was given a consistent 15 minutes a game it could do wonders for his game. He's never gonna find his jump shot, or get comfortable with his crafty paint shots, if he's only getting up a few a game.... if any.

The million dollar question for Vogel and Bird is, is it worth it to risk losing a player you spent so much time and headaches molding into a good team player and citizen for a few more regular season wins? It's doubtful Price is going to make a difference in advancing in the playoffs, so what's the point in stunting Lance's development? If he gets the time this year, you never know, he could be a really good player for us next year, and if we lose Hill we'll have his replacement ready.

There's good arguments either way, it's just the over the top stuff is lame from both camps. That and all the rock solid advanced stats telling me Lance sucks.

CJ Jones
02-13-2012, 02:22 AM
[QUOTE]Personally, I'm a fundamentalist. I see no more value in the "flashy" pass than I do in the standard, every day ordinary entry pass to the post. I think that some folks are fooled by flash and for some reason put more value in it. Kind of like monstrous dunks versus layups.

I don't care about the fact that Lance is able to accomplish some of his passes with flair. I don't award points for style. All I want to see is consistency in all things that he does, just like I expect from any other player.

I think you're not giving us enough credit if you think the only reason we like him is because of the fancy pass. Personally, I like because he makes the normal pass look easy. Whether it's advancing the ball on the break, or hitting a player in rhythm for a jump shot. He's the best passer on the team according to the Legend.


Therefore, if Lance needs far more minutes to develop, the best place for him to get them would be in the D-league, because he has done nothing to earn or warrant those minutes at this time.

I'm just asking for a consistent 15 at backup PG. You don't develop players on 7 minutes a night.

spazzxb
02-13-2012, 03:02 AM
Have you watched any games so far this year? Some people have fallen so in love with the possibility of Lance becoming out starting PG in the future they are blind to the current truths.

What is your truth? I am not agreeing with that guy, however Aj does dominate the ball on offense and can be quite the chucker. While he may not "steal shots" he most certainly is limiting Lances opportunity. Do you watch the games? Do you have an actual position on this subject or do you just like generating generic insults?


PS. I would be less abrasive, but I didn't think you were nice to that guy.

spazzxb
02-13-2012, 03:15 AM
. That and all the rock solid advanced stats telling me Lance sucks.

those guys don't look to see what they can learn from stats. They look at stats to find numbers, which they can use, to push there agenda. Arguing with the people you were arguing won't be worth the effort.

Sookie, This wasn't directed at you. Your an entirely different animal.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

doctor-h
02-13-2012, 08:37 AM
I presume you do realize that your position is not something that Vogel and TPTB agree with? Right?

Otherwise, if Lance were "that good", would it not be obvious to you that Vogel would have him in the starting lineup. Therefore, I must conclude that either Vogel is incredibly stupid, or that perhaps your perspective is more than just a bit biased.

Personally, I'm a fundamentalist. I see no more value in the "flashy" pass than I do in the standard, every day ordinary entry pass to the post. I think that some folks are fooled by flash and for some reason put more value in it. Kind of like monstrous dunks versus layups.

I don't care about the fact that Lance is able to accomplish some of his passes with flair. I don't award points for style. All I want to see is consistency in all things that he does, just like I expect from any other player.

Folks can talk about how 20-25 minutes per game would be the best thing for Lance. I would agree. Playing significant minutes would be the best thing to develop his game. Unfortunately, Lance playing 20-25 minutes per game would not be the best thing to benefit the TEAM. Therefore, if Lance needs far more minutes to develop, the best place for him to get them would be in the D-league, because he has done nothing to earn or warrant those minutes at this time.

First of all, nobody has suggested moving Lance into the starting lineup. As far as falling in love with a flashy pass, you could not be more wrong. I am old school, I could care less about how a pass is made as long as it is made. Collison and Price very seldom make that pass. As far as benefiting the team, how much do you really think Price is benefiting the team. Get real. As far as the coaching staff and Pacers brass not agreeing with me, you are obviously wrong about Bird and you don't know what their thoughts are for the future. The question is when is the right time to give him a chance. There is a kid in New York right now that two teams thought could not make it in this league, their front office and coaches were so far wrong. He has taken the league by storm because someone gave him a chance. So please stop putting words in my mouth, this is only my opinion. I have a right to it just as you have a right to yours.

DaveP63
02-13-2012, 08:52 AM
Lance is doing something important right now. He's learning. Just as all young players must do. It doesn't matter whether or not they play him at the 1 or 2, 10 minutes or 20. He's learning on the fly how to employ what Larry sees every day in practice. It will take time.

Sookie
02-13-2012, 01:06 PM
What is your truth? I am not agreeing with that guy, however Aj does dominate the ball on offense and can be quite the chucker. While he may not "steal shots" he most certainly is limiting Lances opportunity. Do you watch the games? Do you have an actual position on this subject or do you just like generating generic insults?


PS. I would be less abrasive, but I didn't think you were nice to that guy.

Because Lance hasn't shown he can score in the flow of an offense. He also doesn't move without the ball too well. So it's really not a good pass to throw him the ball in the corner.

He can score in transition. And he can score when he dominates the ball and goes to the basket. (Although rarely)

The bottom line is, you have to ask yourself, who is more likely to score from the perimeter - Lance, AJ, or Dahntay. Because that's the guy that should be taking the shots. And despite current percentages, I think the coaching staff (and I agree) believe AJ's more likely to do so.

I mean seriously, ask yourself, would the kid who has been the "hard working professional" young guy...the kid who to this day, in interviews (even when baited) won't say a negative word about Jim O'brien. (That's some major professionalism..) be so uncoachable that if Vogel told him to stop shooting, he wouldn't? Last season, when he was going through his slump, the coaches told him to keep shooting. He gets rewarded with more playing time the more aggressive he is on offense. And it's not like the coaching staff hasn't stopped people from "chucking." (Dahntay, Tyler) I think they recognize what I recognize, which is, on the bench SOMEONE needs to look for their shot. Lance isn't a perimeter shooter, and seems flat out uncomfortable doing that (And I personally think it's more unfair to Lance than it is to AJ to ask Lance to be the #2 option and main perimeter threat). Dahntay would much rather go to the basket. Defenses are giving the bench unit the three point shot. So the bench has to prove that someone can make it.

ptaylor2112
02-13-2012, 01:25 PM
I don't think players like Lance are developed in 7, 10, or even 15 minutes of gametime.

Players like Lance are developed in practice, against other NBA players, and the Pacers haven't had enough of it.

Sure, I'd like to see Lance play more. I've only seen him once in person, vs the Nets during Super Bowl week. (Thanks again btyler!). Once was enough to make me a believer - in his court vision and passing skills. But on offense, Lance is less of a threat than Jeff Foster.

He's caught between a rock and a hard place: too valuable to risk regressing in the D-League, but too little offense to justify more minutes. In my opinon, of course.

ejwallace
02-13-2012, 01:51 PM
I thought the substitutions hurt us this game....Like was stated earlier, stop with the egg timer, and substitute when needed. Watching these past few losses, one thing that just screams at me is Vogel taking out the hot players. In the first quarter, Danny had 17 points....17 of our 35 points in the first quarter were from Danny.....Then he got stuck on the bench, got cold, and only picked up another 9 points...

During the second quarter, our second team continued to hold the lead, until they got pulled....Aj was looking really good from a scoring perspective, then poof, he was pulled so the starters could come back in.

I also noticed that we do very little intermingling of "teams". Vogel either has in the starters or our second team...Very rarely are we running with a mix of starters and second team. This worries me because it makes me feel that our team really isn't on the same page as far as play style, and being able to play together.

Roy's game concerned me as well, and I can't blame anything other than him being gassed. Watching him run the court, he just looked like he was going through the motions. By the end of the game, he wasn't even making it into position by the time a quick shot would be taken. I also distinctly remember Roy giving up on a rebound he thought was going out of bounds, only to have a Nugget swoop in and pick it up for easy points. Very disappointing.....I want to see the Roy from the Lakers game each and every time he steps on the court.

Rebounding is also a big concern. No one was crashing the boards.... I was thoroughly impressed on one play when I saw George run in to get inside position for a rebound....until he got sucked so far in that the rebound went over his head.....I just don't get it....

I love watching this team, but I hope this roller-coaster starts its upward crawl again.....

Sparhawk
02-13-2012, 02:49 PM
I thought the substitutions hurt us this game....Like was stated earlier, stop with the egg timer, and substitute when needed. Watching these past few losses, one thing that just screams at me is Vogel taking out the hot players. In the first quarter, Danny had 17 points....17 of our 35 points in the first quarter were from Danny.....Then he got stuck on the bench, got cold, and only picked up another 9 points...

During the second quarter, our second team continued to hold the lead, until they got pulled....Aj was looking really good from a scoring perspective, then poof, he was pulled so the starters could come back in.

I also noticed that we do very little intermingling of "teams". Vogel either has in the starters or our second team...Very rarely are we running with a mix of starters and second team. This worries me because it makes me feel that our team really isn't on the same page as far as play style, and being able to play together.

Roy's game concerned me as well, and I can't blame anything other than him being gassed. Watching him run the court, he just looked like he was going through the motions. By the end of the game, he wasn't even making it into position by the time a quick shot would be taken. I also distinctly remember Roy giving up on a rebound he thought was going out of bounds, only to have a Nugget swoop in and pick it up for easy points. Very disappointing.....I want to see the Roy from the Lakers game each and every time he steps on the court.

Rebounding is also a big concern. No one was crashing the boards.... I was thoroughly impressed on one play when I saw George run in to get inside position for a rebound....until he got sucked so far in that the rebound went over his head.....I just don't get it....

I love watching this team, but I hope this roller-coaster starts its upward crawl again.....

I hate the egg timer moves too. I also think Vogel's use of timeouts could be better.

Unclebuck
02-13-2012, 02:56 PM
I like the egg timer substitutions - during the regular season that is the way I would do it if I were coach. That is the best way to build a bench, there is a reason why Carlisle almost always has one of the best benches in the NBA. The regular season is building towards the playoffs. Sort of like in school, the regular season games are quizzes the playoffs are final exams.

the criticism is interesting though

Eleazar
02-13-2012, 03:32 PM
I like the egg timer substitutions - during the regular season that is the way I would do it if I were coach. That is the best way to build a bench, there is a reason why Carlisle almost always has one of the best benches in the NBA. The regular season is building towards the playoffs. Sort of like in school, the regular season games are quizzes the playoffs are final exams.

the criticism is interesting though

The problem isn't the egg timer substitutions, but being so strict about it that it is wearing out our starters and doesn't put us in the best position to win. There is little to no adjusting to the specific situation.

Also I have no idea how it builds a strong bench. Carlisle constantly has good benches because he constantly has good bench players, and because he is a good coach. His strict substitution methods are is his biggest flaw.

Like I said there is nothing wrong with it, but you need to have some flexibility in order to put your team in the best position to succeed.

Since86
02-13-2012, 03:39 PM
What bench player should be getting more time?

Lou? No.
Foster? I wish.
Tyler? Uh, okay.
DJones? Maybe.
Lance? No.
AJ? No.

The only player left is Pendergraph. Should he play more? No.

The problem really isn't with the amount of minutes, rather than the lack of players available. The Pacers are missing, what, 2 other roster spots? I would guess that if those positions were filled it would ease up on the rest of the players. Not only for game minutes, but also practice minutes.


But really, not having Hill nor Foster is the main problem. Your two best, most consistent bench players can't play right now. It doesn't take a whole lot to realize that bench play is going to suffer from it. Their depth is really hurting without those two.

But I really can't think of a single bench player, that can play, where I've thought to myself "wow, they need more minutes."

Sparhawk
02-13-2012, 04:01 PM
What bench player should be getting more time?

Lou? No.
Foster? I wish.
Tyler? Uh, okay.
DJones? Maybe.
Lance? No.
AJ? No.

The only player left is Pendergraph. Should he play more? No.

The problem really isn't with the amount of minutes, rather than the lack of players available. The Pacers are missing, what, 2 other roster spots? I would guess that if those positions were filled it would ease up on the rest of the players. Not only for game minutes, but also practice minutes.


But really, not having Hill nor Foster is the main problem. Your two best, most consistent bench players can't play right now. It doesn't take a whole lot to realize that bench play is going to suffer from it. Their depth is really hurting without those two.

But I really can't think of a single bench player, that can play, where I've thought to myself "wow, they need more minutes."

I disagree about Lance. He should be earning more playing time. His defense has improved, he gets steals, & he's our best passer.

I agree with everything else.

Sandman21
02-13-2012, 05:13 PM
I agree, there's usually nothing wrong with the egg timer rotation style, but when a player is hot, you got to keep them in their rhythm.

Frank doesn't pull Danny at the start of the second, and I think we win that game going away.

spazzxb
02-13-2012, 06:07 PM
Because Lance hasn't shown he can score in the flow of an offense. He also doesn't move without the ball too well. So it's really not a good pass to throw him the ball in the corner.

He can score in transition. And he can score when he dominates the ball and goes to the basket. (Although rarely)

The bottom line is, you have to ask yourself, who is more likely to score from the perimeter - Lance, AJ, or Dahntay. Because that's the guy that should be taking the shots. And despite current percentages, I think the coaching staff (and I agree) believe AJ's more likely to do so.

I mean seriously, ask yourself, would the kid who has been the "hard working professional" young guy...the kid who to this day, in interviews (even when baited) won't say a negative word about Jim O'brien. (That's some major professionalism..) be so uncoachable that if Vogel told him to stop shooting, he wouldn't? Last season, when he was going through his slump, the coaches told him to keep shooting. He gets rewarded with more playing time the more aggressive he is on offense. And it's not like the coaching staff hasn't stopped people from "chucking." (Dahntay, Tyler) I think they recognize what I recognize, which is, on the bench SOMEONE needs to look for their shot. Lance isn't a perimeter shooter, and seems flat out uncomfortable doing that (And I personally think it's more unfair to Lance than it is to AJ to ask Lance to be the #2 option and main perimeter threat). Dahntay would much rather go to the basket. Defenses are giving the bench unit the three point shot. So the bench has to prove that someone can make it.

Do you really think Lance is incapable of passing the ball to Tyler? Far to often price dribbles the ball and maybe makes a pass on the left side of the court, gets it back then dribbles some more. Lance stands around because that is his job. The ball never comes to his side of the court so Lance just waits. When given the ball Lance penetrates and passes the ball to open guys. With your argument wouldn't AJ be the one you want standing in the corner waiting to shoot? Way to often AJ takes a three-point shot because he was incapable of making anything else happen. He either shoots early, or runs out the shot clock accomplishes nothing and then gets an excuse to throw up another shot. While I am not a big fan of DJ, he has been shooting at least as well as AJ this season.

I also say if George Hill can't play PG, which i think he can, why is he even on this team. GH is to short to be a full time shooting guard. Lance brings what GH lacks in size and passing ability(that is why i feel they fit well together). GH brings what Lance lacks in the shooting department. They both are good defenders.

Forget about Lance, What about the time since GH was injured do you feel improved about this team. What has AJ done to earn anything? Why do you feel AJ should take George Hills minutes at point guard?

I want to see either Danny or PG on the floor when either Lance or DJ plays(theres your shooter). I see Danny and PG minutes being staggered some and I think ultimately the team wants this as well.

Peck
02-13-2012, 06:29 PM
I like the egg timer substitutions - during the regular season that is the way I would do it if I were coach. That is the best way to build a bench, there is a reason why Carlisle almost always has one of the best benches in the NBA. The regular season is building towards the playoffs. Sort of like in school, the regular season games are quizzes the playoffs are final exams.

the criticism is interesting though

In general I agree with you, it let's players know what to expect and how to produce.

However there are occasions that this should not be held to like religious dogma either.

If a player (ie. Danny in the first quarter) is hot then ride it till they don't produce or you see that they are physically wearing down then make the move.

Same thing happens on the opposite side. If a player makes 3 or 4 mistakes in a row it may be best to get them out of the game until they can calm down or if a player picks up a couple of quick fouls.

But overall, yes the egg timer is logical.

Eleazar
02-13-2012, 06:34 PM
Why do you feel AJ should take George Hills minutes at point guard?


Pretty simple, becuase a line-up of Price, Hill, Jones, Hansbrough, and Foster/Admundson is better than a line-up of Hill, Lance, Jones, Hansbrough, and Foster/Admundson. What do you not get about basketball that makes you believe it is better to put the worse of two line-ups out there?

spazzxb
02-13-2012, 06:49 PM
Pretty simple, becuase a line-up of Price, Hill, Jones, Hansbrough, and Foster/Admundson is better than a line-up of Hill, Lance, Jones, Hansbrough, and Foster/Admundson. What do you not get about basketball that makes you believe it is better to put the worse of two line-ups out there?

GH+Lance is far, far better than AP+GH on defense, offense is debatable(is it it the 10% of the time AJ gets hot). What don't you understand about simple communication that makes you think insults are necessary?

The 5 person lineup is kinda silly. I want George or Danny on the floor at all times. They are being staggered a bit now and I expect that to continue. DC,PG,DJ,?,? and GH,LS,DG,?,? is what I hope to see most of the time(since they don't play PG at SF). Lance will have limited minutes since DG+PG and GH+PG will play together as well. I don't expect Lance to get a ton of minutes this season, he was only getting like 6 before GH was injured.

I would like to see Lance get the minutes GH has spent next to DC, however those could just as easily be taken by PG.

Eleazar
02-13-2012, 06:59 PM
GH+Lance is far, far better than AP+GH on defense, offense is debatable(is it it the 10% of the time AJ gets hot). What don't you understand about simple communication that makes you think insults are necessary?

The 5 person lineup is kinda silly. I wan't George or Danny on the floor at all times. They are being staggered a bit now and I expect that to continue. DC,PG,DJ,?,? and GH,LS,DG,?,? is what hope to see most of the time(since they don't play PG at SF).

I have no idea what insult you are talking about?

Sookie
02-13-2012, 07:02 PM
GH+Lance is far, far better than AP+GH on defense, offense is debatable(is it it the 10% of the time AJ gets hot). What don't you understand about simple communication that makes you think insults are necessary?



No it's not, and it's not even close. AJ is actually a very good defender, and GH, although has a harder time against SG's is one of the best on the team. Lance, he tries hard..but not so much.

Go back and look at the Charlotte and Boston games (especially Charlotte) AJ and GH were like buzzsaw's on defense.

Sookie
02-13-2012, 07:14 PM
Do you really think Lance is incapable of passing the ball to Tyler? Far to often price dribbles the ball and maybe makes a pass on the left side of the court, gets it back then dribbles some more. Lance stands around because that is his job. The ball never comes to his side of the court so Lance just waits. When given the ball Lance penetrates and passes the ball to open guys. With your argument wouldn't AJ be the one you want standing in the corner waiting to shoot? Way to often AJ takes a three-point shot because he was incapable of making anything else happen. He either shoots early, or runs out the shot clock accomplishes nothing and then gets an excuse to throw up another shot. While I am not a big fan of DJ, he has been shooting at least as well as AJ this season.

I also say if George Hill can't play PG, which i think he can, why is he even on this team. GH is to short to be a full time shooting guard. Lance brings what GH lacks in size and passing ability(that is why i feel they fit well together). GH brings what Lance lacks in the shooting department. They both are good defenders.

Forget about Lance, What about the time since GH was injured do you feel improved about this team. What has AJ done to earn anything? Why do you feel AJ should take George Hills minutes at point guard?

I want to see either Danny or PG on the floor when either Lance or DJ plays(theres your shooter). I see Danny and PG minutes being staggered some and I think ultimately the team wants this as well.



My point. Without question, our bench's best run came with a lineup of Price, Hill, Dahntay, Tyler, Foster. It's not arguable. That was when our bench looked the best. For the obvious reason that in this lineup, we aren't asking an SG to be both a PG and an SG, or asking a PG to be both a PG and an SG. Because Lance just isn't NBA ready, at either position. Good for him for putting in the effort and energy he's putting in. It is having a positive benefit to the team. But the fact that he can't play either position adequately hurts the team more than his energy and effort helps it.

So at the end of the day, whether you like AJ or not - and whether you realize what he's doing on the floor or not - he's an actual point guard. And GH, despite struggling on defense a little bit at the SG spot, is a pretty good backup SG. Having one player have to play both positions just doesn't work offensively, and hurts the bench production.

So we have, AJ and Lance not really working out on the perimeter. GH and Lance not working out on the perimeter. But AJ and GH did work out well on the perimeter. Hmm...I wonder which one is the best choice.

The other stuff, AJ's not flashy, but he's always been effective. And that bothers some people. But rest assured he's doing more than simply pounding the ball until the end of the shot clock. (In fact, he's doing the same freaking thing on EVERY half court possession. Trying to get the ball to Tyler. And AJ's always been the type of player that would patiently wait for the right angle.)

spazzxb
02-13-2012, 07:15 PM
No it's not, and it's not even close. AJ is actually a very good defender, and GH, although has a harder time against SG's is one of the best on the team. Lance, he tries hard..but not so much.

Go back and look at the Charlotte and Boston games (especially Charlotte) AJ and GH were like buzzsaw's on defense.

I like George hill but if he isn't playing PG, he is just another talented undersized SG. Can he defend some shooting guards, sure. Boston forced Lance onto the floor with Petrius. New Jersey forced Lance onto the floor by posting GH and/or DC whenever they were on the floor. I simply am not a fan of having both our shooting guard and point guard being shorter than me. Occasoinally, GH is just fine at the 2 but that shouldn't be his primary position.

spazzxb
02-13-2012, 07:24 PM
I have no idea what insult you are talking about?

Most your posts contain some disrespectful shot in them.

example: "What do you not get about basketball"

While I am not insulted and really don't care, these additions do have the tendency of leading me to make certain assumptions as to your personality.

doctor-h
02-13-2012, 11:14 PM
My point. Without question, our bench's best run came with a lineup of Price, Hill, Dahntay, Tyler, Foster. It's not arguable. That was when our bench looked the best. For the obvious reason that in this lineup, we aren't asking an SG to be both a PG and an SG, or asking a PG to be both a PG and an SG. Because Lance just isn't NBA ready, at either position. Good for him for putting in the effort and energy he's putting in. It is having a positive benefit to the team. But the fact that he can't play either position adequately hurts the team more than his energy and effort helps it.

So at the end of the day, whether you like AJ or not - and whether you realize what he's doing on the floor or not - he's an actual point guard. And GH, despite struggling on defense a little bit at the SG spot, is a pretty good backup SG. Having one player have to play both positions just doesn't work offensively, and hurts the bench production.

So we have, AJ and Lance not really working out on the perimeter. GH and Lance not working out on the perimeter. But AJ and GH did work out well on the perimeter. Hmm...I wonder which one is the best choice.

The other stuff, AJ's not flashy, but he's always been effective. And that bothers some people. But rest assured he's doing more than simply pounding the ball until the end of the shot clock. (In fact, he's doing the same freaking thing on EVERY half court possession. Trying to get the ball to Tyler. And AJ's always been the type of player that would patiently wait for the right angle.)

You keep throwing out things that you can not back up as fact. You say our bench was more productive when Hill and Price were with the second unit. That has hardly even happened all year. Before Hill was hurt it was Hill and Lance playing together and Price was getting no time. So if you are going to belittle someone else actually have some sort of fact to back it up. One game is not fact so don't throw that out there. Lance and Hill actually shared the ball and played well together. Someone mentioned Price playing one side of the floor and he is exactly right. He said Lance would be standing in the corner as he was told and that is exactly what happened because they were running plays for Hansbrough. So don't assume that he can't play because he is doing exactly what he is told. If you cannot see the difference in the ability of Lance and AJ then you are the one not understanding anything that is going on out there on the floor.

CJ Jones
02-13-2012, 11:26 PM
Lance stands around because that is his job. The ball never comes to his side of the court so Lance just waits. When given the ball Lance penetrates and passes the ball to open guys. With your argument wouldn't AJ be the one you want standing in the corner waiting to shoot? Way to often AJ takes a three-point shot because he was incapable of making anything else happen. He either shoots early, or runs out the shot clock accomplishes nothing and then gets an excuse to throw up another shot.
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The pick and roll is designed to break down the defense. If your PG isn't capable of getting to the rim there's no point in the defense helping.

That's Price's main weakness and the reason he struggles with his FG% IMO. He shoots mostly jump shots because he's not big enough or athletic enough to make plays in the paint, and that results in very few easy baskets.

People can't expect Lance to look comfortable on offense when we're basically asking him to be Brandon Rush. We need to run him off screens so he can get to the mid range and paint area were he can be effective.

[QUOTE=Eleazar;1372938]Pretty simple, becuase a line-up of Price, Hill, Jones, Hansbrough, and Foster/Admundson is better than a line-up of Hill, Lance, Jones, Hansbrough, and Foster/Admundson. What do you not get about basketball that makes you believe it is better to put the worse of two line-ups out there?

You can't claim that as fact just because of a couple games early in the season.


No it's not, and it's not even close. AJ is actually a very good defender, and GH, although has a harder time against SG's is one of the best on the team. Lance, he tries hard..but not so much.

Go back and look at the Charlotte and Boston games (especially Charlotte) AJ and GH were like buzzsaw's on defense.

I wouldn't say AJ's any better than Lance on defense. They're both pretty good. AJ might guard certain PGs better, but Lance guards multiple positions. Most people here agree Lance has been really good defensively, not just trying hard, especially the last month or so. Why do think he's not been?

Btw I checked the game logs, and you're right about the switch during the Miami game, but that wasn't when the "announcement" was made. AJ played the next 2 games, then they both logged minutes vs Philly, but after that AJ went back to the bench and Lance was inserted into the rotation. It wasn't until after Nets game (1/31) and Hill's injury that Price began getting regular minutes. So that must have been when Vogel made the comment about the switch in the rotation. Just wanted to clear this up because I think quite a few people were thinking it was a demotion for Lance, and were using that to help prove their claim that Lance hasn't played PG this year. (which is :crazy:)

I know you want Price to play, but the more I think about it the more I'm confident Lance's spot in the rotation is safe.


I like George hill but if he isn't playing PG, he is just another talented undersized SG. Can he defend some shooting guards, sure. Boston forced Lance onto the floor with Petrius. New Jersey forced Lance onto the floor by posting GH and/or DC whenever they were on the floor. I simply am not a fan of having both our shooting guard and point guard being shorter than me. Occasoinally, GH is just fine at the 2 but that shouldn't be his primary position.

That's what intrigues me most about the possibility of Lance panning out at PG. We'd be the biggest team in the league, and yes size matters.

#bait