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View Full Version : How long until the Pacers are known as "The Big Five"?



ASkin_ANight
02-08-2012, 02:27 PM
I'd say it's only a matter of days. I almost feel bad for the Heat, only having 3 All-Stars, while we have a whole starting lineup of them.



....

But seriously, do you guys think Darren has a chance of ever being an All-Star? Paul and Roy definitely could be someday, and West and Danny already have been.

Kid Minneapolis
02-08-2012, 02:29 PM
Regarding Collison... nothing is impossible. It's hard to see, though. ;) But a player's ability to continue to improve is the biggest factor for that. So perhaps he continues to improve. So far his improvement curve has been... middling. But at least it's moving in the right direction.

graphic-er
02-08-2012, 02:36 PM
Its cool that Roy has an excellent chance at being an all-star, but really the whole thing has become a joke. Would anyone pick DC over DWill? Even though DC's team has the 5 best overall record in the league? While DWill will be competing for a number 1 pick? How is Wade even on the all-star ballot when he has only played like half the games? There needs to be some qualifiers built into this damn thing. So when somebody like Wade gets voted there for seating on his butt looking good in a sweater, they can automatic DQ him for games played or something.

yoadknux
02-08-2012, 02:41 PM
Well, Collison is the 4th best point guard in the CENTRAL DIVISION (if you put Detroit's guards behind him, and you could still argue about that)
so... no

Eleazar
02-08-2012, 02:45 PM
Remember when Yao Ming kept getting voted in even though he didn't play for like two seasons. Personally I think that fan votes shouldn't be what decides who goes to the All-Star game. Instead it should be a combination of fans, coaches, players, and press.

Psyren
02-08-2012, 02:53 PM
Regarding DC...no, probably not.

That doesnt make him bad, hes a very solid point guard. But I think All-Star would be a stretch

Winner
02-08-2012, 03:21 PM
He needs to put up better assist numbers and continue to shoot well. He would need to put up Rondo numbers and play amazing defense and shoot the three at a high clip before he would pass Rondo in the ballot score.

croz24
02-08-2012, 03:29 PM
Wonder if fans realize an all-star level pg is not necessary to win a championship and arguably the least important position on the court...

Eleazar
02-08-2012, 03:51 PM
Wonder if fans realize an all-star level pg is not necessary to win a championship and arguably the least important position on the court...

From the way people talk about PGs on here I don't think they do.

Ace E.Anderson
02-08-2012, 04:11 PM
Wonder if fans realize an all-star level pg is not necessary to win a championship and arguably the least important position on the court...

It's funny that you say that. I think most people believe PG to be the most IMPORTANT position on the court. But when you think about it, how many teams built around a PG have won a championship? Isaiah Thomas? Magic Johnson (and he had Kareem, Worthy, etc)

Championship teams normally have one of two things. Superstar wing players with great complimentary Big Men. Or Vice Versa, Superstar Big Men with complimentary Wings.

It's never Superstar PG's and Complimentary wings or bigs.

croz24
02-08-2012, 04:29 PM
It's funny that you say that. I think most people believe PG to be the most IMPORTANT position on the court. But when you think about it, how many teams built around a PG have won a championship? Isaiah Thomas? Magic Johnson (and he had Kareem, Worthy, etc)

Championship teams normally have one of two things. Superstar wing players with great complimentary Big Men. Or Vice Versa, Superstar Big Men with complimentary Wings.

It's never Superstar PG's and Complimentary wings or bigs.

When you look at past NBA champions and the makeup of those rosters, you are absolutely correct. Point guard is important, and I'm not saying it isn't, but thus far in league history superstar bigs/wings are more likely to win titles than superstar point guards. Just rattle off the list of title winning starting point guards since Thomas:
John Paxson
BJ Armstrong
Kenny Smith
Ron Harper
Avery Johnson
Derek Fisher
Tony Parker
Chauncy Billups
Jason Williams
Rajon Rondo
An ancient Jason Kidd

Nuntius
02-08-2012, 04:51 PM
But when you think about it, how many teams built around a PG have won a championship? Isaiah Thomas? Magic Johnson (and he had Kareem, Worthy, etc)


Wasn't Magic the definition of a point forward? Amazing court vision, amazing ability to play the point but he was not exactly a guard :p

That said, the point guard is an important position but good bigs are way more important as they are way more dominant.

Regarding Collison now. Can he be an All-Star in the future? He could. However, the competition in point guards is way greater than any other position. There are a lot of good points in this league. DC is not the best but he certainly is a quite good one.

Kstat
02-08-2012, 05:00 PM
Yeah, I think that's absolutely ridiculous, but I'm biased. All three Piston NBA championships came with the point guard being the best player on the team. Unless you're phil jackson, the idea of not needing a quality point guard is hogwash.

Kstat
02-08-2012, 05:01 PM
Wasn't Magic the definition of a point forward? Amazing court vision, amazing ability to play the point but he was not exactly a guard :p


um....no....Magic was a point guard. I'm not sure what your definition of a point forward is, but Magic never came close.

being 6'9" does not make Magic a point forward by definition any more than being 6'7" made Ben Wallace a shooting guard. Magic wasn't a gimmick that directed the team on a part-time basis. Magic ran the entire Laker offense, %100 of the time. He was a point guard. End of story.

Unclebuck
02-08-2012, 05:04 PM
I have been hot and cold on Collison this season. But even after a really good game like last night I could not foresee him ever being an allstar. Has the 5th best player in a team's starting lineup ever made the allstar team?

But yes we have 4 other players who will have made an allstar team - we already have two and we'll have three after tomorow. And PG will be an allstar within two seasons

Kstat
02-08-2012, 05:07 PM
I have been hot and cold on Collison this season. But even after a really good game like last night I could not foresee him ever being an allstar. Has the 5th best player in a team's starting lineup ever made the allstar team?

You could make a real good argument for Kobe Bryant in 1998...but he wasn't starting then, either.

Unclebuck
02-08-2012, 05:11 PM
You could make a real good argument for Kobe Bryant in 1998...but he wasn't starting then, either.


He was voted by the fans though. That is a different situation.

Kstat
02-08-2012, 05:12 PM
yeah, but you didn't specify.

I'll counter with Dan Majerle in 1995.

Nuntius
02-08-2012, 05:14 PM
um....no....Magic was a point guard. I'm not sure what your definition of a point forward is, but Magic never came close.


A point forward is a player who possesses the ball handling skills and court vision to bring the ball up the court and run the offense while having the frame of a Forward (either Power Forward or Small Forward).

That's what pretty much Magic did. He was one of the best players to play the point but I don't think that he was a natural point. Not that it matters.

To win a championship you need to run a good offense. It doesn't matter if this offense is run by a "natural" point or by one of your wings while your point guard has the green light to score.

Kstat
02-08-2012, 05:16 PM
A point forward is a player who possesses the ball handling skills and court vision to bring the ball up the court and run the offense while having the frame of a Forward (either Power Forward or Small Forward).


...the "frame" for a forward? That's ridiculous. You don't pigeonhole players by size, although size does lend itself well to certain positions.

You're a guard, forward or center based on your style of play. Height is a big factor in that, but not an automatic determining factor.

A point forward is a forward that plays part-time floor general. They are called point forward not because they are tall, but in fact because they are primarily forwards. The don't always advance the ball, nor are they always the primary initiators. They set things up when its advantageous to do so, and slide back to being forwards when it is not.

Larry Bird was a point forward. Scottie Pippen and Grant Hill were point forwards. LeBron James is a point forward. Magic was a point guard. I'll let you figure out the difference.

CJ Jones
02-08-2012, 05:17 PM
When you look at past NBA champions and the makeup of those rosters, you are absolutely correct. Point guard is important, and I'm not saying it isn't, but thus far in league history superstar bigs/wings are more likely to win titles than superstar point guards. Just rattle off the list of title winning starting point guards since Thomas:
John Paxson
BJ Armstrong
Kenny Smith
Ron Harper
Avery Johnson
Derek Fisher
Tony Parker
Chauncy Billups
Jason Williams
Rajon Rondo
An ancient Jason Kidd

Few of those PGs are really good. All the rest had at least one superstar to throw it to.

People aren't saying we need a dominant PG (it'd be nice though), just one that can pass and make the rest of our players better.

Since86
02-08-2012, 05:24 PM
Larry Bird was a point forward. Scottie Pippen and Grant Hill were point forwards. LeBron James is a point forward. Magic was a point guard. I'll let you figure out the difference.

Well then, you should probably educate Magic Johnson, and the people that he selected to run the website for his organization, Magic Johnson Foundation.



Until twenty years ago the world had ever seen a 6’9” point guard. Possessing the skill sets of two positions, Earvin "Magic" Johnson changed the game of basketball forever, coining the term “Point Forward.” Now, what Magic did for the game of basketball he is doing for philanthropy, creating a new way of thinking and a position for the rest of us.

http://magicjohnson.com/pointforward/

If you also follow this link, http://magicjohnson.com/foundation/ , you'll notice that they have a "Point Forward Day."

I would think that Magic is probably the leading expert on what position he played.

Kstat
02-08-2012, 05:25 PM
...ok, now let's take the triangle point guards out of the equation, since we're already established that it's a unique system that negates the need for a point guard.

You have Avery Johnson and Jason Williams at the bottom, but after that you have Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Sam Cassell, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Dennis Johnson, Maurice Cheeks.....

Kstat
02-08-2012, 05:26 PM
Well then, you should probably educated Magic Johnson, and the people that he selected to run the website for his organization, Magic Johnson Foundation.


http://magicjohnson.com/pointforward/

If you also follow this link, http://magicjohnson.com/foundation/ , you'll notice that they have a "Point Forward Day."

I would think that Magic is probably the leading expert on what position he played.

...which would make a ton of sense unless magic himself did not write the article....oops.

They have a "point forward" day because it's a nice play on words about hope in the face of the HIV virus. "point guard" day would not have sounded as catchy. I don't think they really cared about the accuracy of the statement.

Since86
02-08-2012, 05:29 PM
That would make sense if it was a foundation setup by other people. But it wasn't. It was set up by Magic himself.


Here's an article where he's talking about Point Forward Day.

It’s hard to believe that Nov. 7 marks the 20th anniversary when Magic Johnson (http://www.mediabistro.com/Magic-Johnson-profile.html) announced he was HIV positive and retired from the NBA.
The ESPN/ABC analyst and accomplished businessman will commemorate the anniversary of that life-altering day by leading a national day of HIV awareness on Monday called “Point Forward Day.”

“It’s a great day because it will be 20 years,” Johnson told FishbowlLA. “We have really helped a lot of people out in terms of raising a lot of funds, raising awareness and making sure that if young people can’t pay for their drugs, we have six HIV and AIDS clinics that they can get them for free.”

The Magic Johnson Foundation will partner with the AIDS Healthcare Foundation to hold free HIV testing events in 17 cities across the country. In nine of those cities (including locally in Carson), community events will be held at the Magic Johnson Foundation’s Community Empowerment Centers with an emphasis on literacy and technology upgrades.

http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlla/magic-johnson-celebrating-point-forward-day_b44255

Kstat
02-08-2012, 05:33 PM
.....and if there was a play on words relevant to "point center," he probably would have called it that.

Notice Magic is not referencing basketball in his quote, he's referencing the day's relevance to AIDS/HIV awareness. "point forward" is a catchy title with a double-meaning. Referencing an HIV awareness foundation for conventional basketball knowledge is silly.

cgg
02-08-2012, 05:33 PM
I would say the more you put the ball into the hands of a dynamic sg to run the offense, the less of a role your pg is going to need to have. Even excluding the triangle guards, you've got dwade on the heat to balance Jason Williams. If the *******s weren't so tall we might even call some of them combo guards.

Since86
02-08-2012, 05:37 PM
"Point Forward Day" is not a play on words.

Read the description again


Until twenty years ago the world had ever seen a 6’9” point guard. Possessing the skill sets of two positions, Earvin "Magic" Johnson changed the game of basketball forever, coining the term “Point Forward.” Now, what Magic did for the game of basketball he is doing for philanthropy, creating a new way of thinking and a position for the rest of us.


Obviously they can recognize that he fits under the term "point forward" so can you.

Kstat
02-08-2012, 05:39 PM
the point remains that if you take out the triangle teams, 17 out of the last 21 NBA champions had at LEAST an all-star caliber starting point guard, if not a hall of famer. The only 4 that didn't featured Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan and Shaquille O'neal.

1980-Magic
1981-Archibald
1982-Magic
1983-Cheeks
1984-DJ
1985-Magic
1986-DJ
1987-Magic
1988-Magic
1989-Zeke
1990-Zeke
1994-Smith
1995-Smith
1999-Johnson
2003-Parker
2004-Billups
2005-Parker
2006-Williams
2007-Parker
2008-Rondo
2011-Kidd

Unless your head coach is Phil Jackson, the odds are you need a pretty good point guard, or one of the best big men of all time.

Kstat
02-08-2012, 05:41 PM
"Point Forward Day" is not a play on words.


Obviously they can recognize that he fits under the term "point forward" so can you.

...actually, it is.

They slid him into a loose definition of the term so they could call it POINT FORWARD day. Calling it point guard day makes no sense. If anybody can recognize that it's a play on words, so can you.

Since86
02-08-2012, 05:42 PM
Please explain how "Point Forward Day" is a play on words.

EDIT: I get the point forward and cure HIV/AIDS part. I'm asking why would his organization say that he coined the phrase, if they don't even think he fits in the phrase.

The play on words doesn't have anything to do with him coining the phrase.

Kstat
02-08-2012, 05:45 PM
Please explain how "Point Forward Day" is a play on words.

holy ****. Seriously?

Noodle
02-08-2012, 05:47 PM
Sigh..... Another thread derailed by Kstat, and his belief that the sky is pink.

Since86
02-08-2012, 05:48 PM
EDIT: I get the point forward and cure HIV/AIDS part. I'm asking why would his organization say that he coined the phrase, if they don't even think he fits in the phrase.

The play on words doesn't have anything to do with him coining the phrase.

Clearly he recognizes, and embraces that position, or he wouldn't use it for his benefit and take credit for being the reason the phrase was created.

It's like it's personally insulting to you for him to be considered a point forward. Why does it even matter?
<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

Kstat
02-08-2012, 05:50 PM
He can fit under an extremely loose definition of the term "point forward" like you can fit a Ferrari and a Neon under the same definition of an automobile it's a convenient use of the term.

Whether they think he really fits the exact definition or not is absurd. Who cares? It's not about being accurate, it's about funding research for a life-threatening disease.

"point forward day" was created by his foundation to commemorate the day Magic announced to the world he had HIV. There is zero basketball significance to it other than the name itself. It in no way was meant to spread awareness that magic was a "point forward."

You're using an HIV awareness foundation to backup a basketball-related theory. You may want to find another source.

Ace E.Anderson
02-08-2012, 05:55 PM
I don't want to be involved in the argument but...

1. Wasn't James Worthy the starting SF for the Lakers during that era?
2.Isn't the definition of a certain position dependent on the way one plays?
3 (and most importantly) If Magic Johnson wasn't a point guard, IDK what the hell a point guard is

Kstat
02-08-2012, 05:57 PM
3 (and most importantly) If Magic Johnson wasn't a point guard, IDK what the hell a point guard is

This.

Since86
02-08-2012, 05:59 PM
You're using an HIV awareness foundation to backup a basketball-related theory. You may want to find another source.

I have a hard time believing that you'll find any other source satisfactory, if Magic's own foundation that he plays a central role in opinion isn't good enough for you.




Whether they think he really fits the exact definition or not is absurd. Who cares?
Well obviously you do, or you wouldn't have objected to him being called a point forward.




His opinion, or atleast the opinion of the foundation that he runs, isn't good enough to change your mind then I doubt anything is. Next time I run into Magic, I'll tell him that he needs to change that on his website because the local PD basketball historian disagrees with it.

Kstat
02-08-2012, 06:02 PM
Well obviously you do, or you wouldn't have objected to him being called a point forward.






...and if I were running his foundation, I would probably have called it the exact same thing. It sounds nice. Does a foundation meant to fight a killer virus really care about the accuracy of basketball terminology? I'm sorry you can't see the difference.

Apparently you have real difficulty separating basketball issues from real life issues.

Noodle
02-08-2012, 06:05 PM
I don't want to be involved in the argument but...

1. Wasn't James Worthy the starting SF for the Lakers during that era?
2.Isn't the definition of a certain position dependent on the way one plays?
3 (and most importantly) If Magic Johnson wasn't a point guard, IDK what the hell a point guard is

Magic was a point guard. He was also one of the best defensive point guards to ever play the game. He ran the offense 90% of the time, and defended the point nearly every time. Magic could play all five positions defensively and offensively. He was a poineer in the game of basketball. If you asked Magic what position he played, I wouldn't be shocked to hear him say that he was "point forward". He seemed to be proud of that term.

Either way, it really doesn't matter. One day you guys will learn that Kstat will argue with a red brick. It doesn't matter how trivial. Actually, the more trivial, harder he seems to drive it home more. Mostly because the answer is not finite, which I think he enjoys. This is his proclivity. :-p

Kstat
02-08-2012, 06:10 PM
Magic was a point guard. He was also one of the best defensive point guards to ever play the game.


One of the few things Bill Simmons and I agree on is that Magic was probably the worst defensive point guard of his generation. He never came remotely close to sniffing an all-defensive team.

Hoop
02-08-2012, 06:10 PM
Most of this thread is just silly.

Magic was a PG, regardless of size. Yes, he could play all 5 positions, but if he wasn't a PG the position doesn't exist.


However you do not have to have a great PG to win a championship, you just don't.

Kstat
02-08-2012, 06:13 PM
you don't have to have a great center or forward or shooting guard, either. Evidence suggests that point guard is a critical position of need unless you're running the triangle, or have a one in a generation big man to rely on.

ilive4sports
02-08-2012, 06:27 PM
I have a hard time believing that you'll find any other source satisfactory, if Magic's own foundation that he plays a central role in opinion isn't good enough for you.




Well obviously you do, or you wouldn't have objected to him being called a point forward.




His opinion, or atleast the opinion of the foundation that he runs, isn't good enough to change your mind then I doubt anything is. Next time I run into Magic, I'll tell him that he needs to change that on his website because the local PD basketball historian disagrees with it.

I'm sorry, but citing the name of his foundation to make your argument is just laughable. How about his bio on NBA.com?

http://www.nba.com/history/players/johnsonm_bio.html

Still, Earvin Johnson was even more than a revolutionary player, who, at 6-9, was the tallest point guard in league history.

What about ESPN and their Sports Century series?
http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016111.html

The former Los Angeles Laker is more than a graceful 6-foot-9 giant who redefined his position as the first oversized point guard.

What about Yahoo sports and their 10 best Point Guards of all time?
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ycn-7776352

#1 Greatest NBA Point Guard of All Time: Earvin "Magic" Johnson

Magic Johnson was a point guard.

The only time he was considered a forward was when he came back in the 95-96 season, after he gained weight and split time between PG and PF.

MyFavMartin
02-08-2012, 06:31 PM
How about:

"The Committee"

I see a lot of similarity to our team to Larry Brown's Detroit Pistons, except a better bench.

Eleazar
02-08-2012, 06:55 PM
No matter how you define Magic there is still one truth to everything. With the exception of an extremely unique player (so unique we have yet to see another player like him), only one team has won a championship with a team BUILT around a PG. No one is going to say you don't need to a good PG, but you also don't want to be looking to build your team around a PG. Yeah you can have a lot of success, but you are going to struggle to win a championship. What you really want out of a PG has little to do with any direct production from that position, but a player who gets increased production out of everyone else on the floor.

Now to the question of "can we win it all with Collison?" The answer is yes, is he the ideal PG no, but he is a good player surrounded by a bunch of even better players.

Eleazar
02-08-2012, 07:03 PM
How about:

"The Committee"

I see a lot of similarity to our team to Larry Brown's Detroit Pistons, except a better bench.

With the exception of PG, the starting 5 of this team is as talented or more talented than their starting 5. The only position I would put up for debate is PF. Otherwise I would take Hibbert over Wallace, and I would take Granger and George over Hamilton and Prince. That said as a whole I would say it is a toss up of which starting 5 was better. Not because of Billups, but because more so than our current team as a group they were better than any single individual.

dgranger17
02-08-2012, 07:11 PM
As a rookie, Magic Johnson started Game 6 of the NBA Finals as a center in place of Kareem.

He dropped 42 points, 15 rebounds, and 7 assists as the Lakers clinched the series.

I'm not saying Magic was or wasn't a point guard, because I think there are certain people you just can't give a position, but how many other point guards could start at center? If Magic was strictly a point guard, does him putting up 42/15/7 as a center in the finals as a rookie make him the best point guard ever?

TheDon
02-08-2012, 07:18 PM
I have been hot and cold on Collison this season. But even after a really good game like last night I could not foresee him ever being an allstar. Has the 5th best player in a team's starting lineup ever made the allstar team?

But yes we have 4 other players who will have made an allstar team - we already have two and we'll have three after tomorow. And PG will be an allstar within two seasons

Didn't the pistons have all of their starting 5 on the east one year? wallace, sheed, prince, hamilton, and billups? or was one left out...while Kstat is here arguing a point maybe he can clarify :D

CJ Jones
02-08-2012, 07:40 PM
With the exception of PG, the starting 5 of this team is as talented or more talented than their starting 5.


I agree, but that PG was arguably the best and most important player on that team.

Since86
02-08-2012, 07:49 PM
...and if I were running his foundation, I would probably have called it the exact same thing. It sounds nice. Does a foundation meant to fight a killer virus really care about the accuracy of basketball terminology? I'm sorry you can't see the difference.

Apparently you have real difficulty separating basketball issues from real life issues.

They acknowledge that his play coined the phrase "point forward." Coining the phrase means created the phrase. They're saying that the phrase "point forward" was created FOR Magic Johnson.

I don't know how you're not seeing this. Magic is taking credit for being the textbook definition of point forward.

pizza guy
02-08-2012, 07:58 PM
Ay, ay, ay...this thread has just about given me a headache.

Back to the OP, I highly doubt our team will ever get nicknamed "The Big Five," but I do think they're going to earn a lot of respect with the way they're playing. If they make a good run in the playoffs, they'll get plenty of attention, but it will be as "The Pacers," like it should be.

I think DC is only going to improve in the next couple years. I'm probably the most optimistic person on the board when it comes to DC's potential. It'll be difficult for him to get an All Star appearance with the plethora of talented PGs in the East right now, but like I said, if the team makes a good playoff run and people start to take notice, everyone on the team will be thought of a little higher, and he could make it in the next couple years.

SoupIsGood
02-08-2012, 08:44 PM
Sigh..... Another thread derailed by Kstat, and his belief that the sky is pink.

K isn't the one derailing this thread. There's a reason no one has yet posted a legit basketball source (instead of a PR fluff site) citing Magic as a point forward.

xIndyFan
02-08-2012, 09:12 PM
Ay, ay, ay...this thread has just about given me a headache.

Back to the OP, I highly doubt our team will ever get nicknamed "The Big Five,". . .

yeah, me too on the headache.

it is unlikely that any team will have a group of players called the big five. unless three of them are still on rookie contracts. with the salary cap and a max salary of 25% of the cap a team just cannot afford that many big contracts. the cost of filling out the roster would make the team a tax payer. and the new CBA makes that only a short term solution.

Shade
02-08-2012, 11:06 PM
Well, the Sixers did get to the Finals with Eric Snow... :shrug:

LA_Confidential
02-09-2012, 11:53 AM
Haven't read any of the thread but I agree 100% with the first poster who said we need to upgrade the starting point guard spot.

BigRik
02-09-2012, 12:29 PM
[QUOTE=Unclebuck;1369361] Has the 5th best player in a team's starting lineup ever made the allstar team?
/QUOTE]

The '82-83 Sixers had 4 starter make the all-star team the same year, 3 starters. Maurice Cheeks, Julius Erving, and Moses Malone started, and Andrew Toney was a reserve. Marc Iavaroni started at power forward for Philly that year but Bobby Jones was sixth man of the year and 1st team all defensive team. It could be argued that Toney was their fifth best player, and he made the all-star team, even though their fourth best player, Jones, didn't. God I loved that team. That was back before I realized Indiana had an NBA team, so I followed Dr J, and consequently the 76ers. I switched fandom to Indiana when Erving retired, Malone was traded for Jeff Ruland, and the first pick overall (Brad Daugherty) was traded for Roy Hinson. If GMs could get the death penalty...

PGisthefuture
02-09-2012, 12:48 PM
The 76ers and the Nuggets could also have a "big 5" really.