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vnzla81
02-05-2012, 11:34 PM
Come on Larry make it happen :nod:


http://tracking.si.com/2012/02/05/report-suns-willing-to-consider-trading-steve-nash/



Report: Suns Willing To Consider Trading Steve Nash

The Phoenix Suns are lagging at 9-14, once again on the outside of the Western Conference playoff picture looking in from 12th place. Steve Nash has nevertheless maintained that he’s not seeking a trade — but according to Ken Berger of CBS, the Suns would pursue a deal if Nash wanted it.

“It’s really on him in terms of what he wants to do or not do,” a source told Berger.

Nash said a month ago that he wasn’t interested in a trade, insisting “it’s not my style” when asked. But as the Suns head toward the draft lottery again and Nash inches toward the end of his two-year, $22 million contract in Phoenix, the trade rumors have begun swirling once again.

Nash turns 38 on Tuesday. He’s averaging 14.5 points and 9.9 assists per game for the Suns this season.

Infinite MAN_force
02-05-2012, 11:43 PM
I'd be more interested in pursuing him in free agency, where we don't have to give up anything.

pacer4ever
02-05-2012, 11:43 PM
about 3 years too late there Phoenix

vnzla81
02-05-2012, 11:52 PM
I'd be more interested in pursuing him in free agency, where we don't have to give up anything.

In this short season we have a chance to win now, we are contenders or close to contenders with him I think.

vnzla81
02-05-2012, 11:55 PM
about 3 years too late there Phoenix

They went to the conference finals 2 years ago, they had a chance to get to the finals.

Hoop
02-05-2012, 11:55 PM
Love to have him, NOT willing to give up much to get him.

CableKC
02-05-2012, 11:56 PM
I'd be more interested in pursuing him in free agency, where we don't have to give up anything.
The possibility of Nash signing with the Pacers as a FA is dependent on what happens with Deron Williams before the Trade deadline.

If Dwight decides to go to NJ...DWill will likely stay in NJ. If Dwight doesn't go to NJ...then DWill will likely be gone...with a likely destination being NY.

I can only see 2 scenarios where Nash doesn't end up in NY via FA ( which is one of the few Teams that I think would be competing for Nash's services ).....(1) If DWill doesn't end up in NY ( which opens up the need for the Knicks to get a PG like Nash ) or (2) if the Knicks decide to fire D'Antoni ( for whatever reason ).

immortality
02-05-2012, 11:57 PM
depends on what we would have to trade, the only think I would trade is George Hill/Darren Collinson, otherwise we destroy our depth.

JEM
02-06-2012, 12:03 AM
Kaman or Nash?

vnzla81
02-06-2012, 12:05 AM
Kaman or Nash?

Both?

Infinite MAN_force
02-06-2012, 12:10 AM
The possibility of Nash signing with the Pacers as a FA is dependent on what happens with Deron Williams before the Trade deadline.

If Dwight decides to go to NJ...DWill will likely stay in NJ. If Dwight doesn't go to NJ...then DWill will likely be gone...with a likely destination being NY.

I can only see 2 scenarios where Nash doesn't end up in NY via FA ( which is one of the few Teams that I think would be competing for Nash's services ).....(1) If DWill doesn't end up in NY ( which opens up the need for the Knicks to get a PG like Nash ) or (2) if the Knicks decide to fire D'Antoni ( for whatever reason ).

I see the NY thing, given his history with D'antoni and Amare. However, at the moment, we are a much better team then New York. We should also be under the cap still, meaning we can offer more than MLE money, which is the most New York can offer. Plus the Larry Bird factor.

I'm not saying its a sure thing, but I don't think its out of line to say we might have a realistic shot. We can outbid the capped out teams. If we look like a team that's a piece away from contending, I could see us being on his short list. Nash doesn't strike me as a guy who cares about playing in a big market.

RLeWorm
02-06-2012, 12:16 AM
Man, our offense would be so smooth with him running the point.

Sookie
02-06-2012, 12:19 AM
I hope they trade him to a contender (or someone who would contend with him)

Nash deserves that. He's past the point where you'd get a ton of value for him, so be nice Phoenix. No sending him to Washington or something..

CableKC
02-06-2012, 12:27 AM
I hope they trade him to a contender (or someone who would contend with him)

Nash deserves that. He's past the point where you'd get a ton of value for him, so be nice Phoenix. No sending him to Washington or something..
Uhhh....do we partially qualify in any way over the next 2 seasons?

CableKC
02-06-2012, 12:32 AM
I see the NY thing, given his history with D'antoni and Amare. However, at the moment, we are a much better team then New York. We should also be under the cap still, meaning we can offer more than MLE money, which is the most New York can offer. Plus the Larry Bird factor.

I'm not saying its a sure thing, but I don't think its out of line to say we might have a realistic shot. We can outbid the capped out teams. If we look like a team that's a piece away from contending, I could see us being on his short list. Nash doesn't strike me as a guy who cares about playing in a big market.
Money isn't a concern for him....if it's anything...it's the ability to compete for a championship. I agree with you, unless the Knicks make a major move that would significantly change the make up and depth of this Team....I just don't see how the Knicks can make it to the next level. They are more of a NBA2k12 Team that is built to win an imaginary Championship then a real NBA Team that can win a real NBA Championship.

wintermute
02-06-2012, 12:32 AM
Eh, doesn't sound like anything has changed. Nash won't ask for a trade, Suns won't trade him unless he asks. Still stuck in a holding pattern there.

vnzla81
02-06-2012, 12:46 AM
Call me crazy but the Knicks would be pretty damn good with Nash at the point, if he is a free agent there is not doubt that he would end up in NY, with his best friends Baron D and Amare there plus he loves Mike D.

Psyren
02-06-2012, 12:53 AM
Call me crazy but the Knicks would be pretty damn good with Nash at the point, if he is a free agent there is not doubt that he would end up in NY, with his best friends Baron D and Amare there plus he loves Mike D.

Youre only half crazy.

Theyd be phenomenal offensively.

Defensively? What a nightmare

tadscout
02-06-2012, 12:54 AM
Eh, doesn't sound like anything has changed. Nash won't ask for a trade, Suns won't trade him unless he asks. Still stuck in a holding pattern there.

QFT - no point of even getting excited about the possibility. Nash isn't the sort of selfish star player that would ask for a trade, and Phx won't trade him unless he asks.

vnzla81
02-06-2012, 01:01 AM
Youre only half crazy.

Theyd be phenomenal offensively.

Defensively? What a nightmare

They almost made it to the finals with Nash, Amare and Marion, I'm pretty sure they have a better chance in making it to the finals with Amare, Melo, Chandler and Nash.

Pacerized
02-06-2012, 01:26 AM
I wouldn't give up a long term asset in a trade but I think he'd be a great pick up this summer as a free agent. Getting Nash on a short term, high dollar contract would make sense for both parties. He can only have a couple of good years left and won't be looking for a long term contract anyway. We could sign him while still using Roy's cap hold, then give Roy his contract. When Nash's contract expires we have the money to extend Paul George. We might be able to bring in Nash and another free agent like Kaman before signing Roy. We'll have about 35 mil to spend before hitting the L.T. Spend 18 mil between Nash and Kaman, and save the rest for Roy and filling out the roster. There is a bright spot to waiting until the summer to sign Roy. His cap hold is only 3.6 mil. which gives us room to be more aggressive in the free agent market while still holding onto Roy.

focused444
02-06-2012, 02:05 AM
Taking away all financial and asset factors, the thought of him running the break with Paul George is :drooling:

Nash makes everybody he plays with look better. The Pacers would get a lot more easy baskets with him on the floor.

McKeyFan
02-06-2012, 07:47 AM
Can somebody provide some more details about Nash's defense? I just hear people say it's bad. Is it worse than Collison's?

travmil
02-06-2012, 08:08 AM
Can somebody provide some more details about Nash's defense? I just hear people say it's bad. Is it worse than Collison's?

I guarantee there are high schoolers in the city of Indianapolis who can defend NBA level guards more effectively than Nash has been able to at any point in his career.

Dgreenwell3
02-06-2012, 09:12 AM
Can somebody provide some more details about Nash's defense? I just hear people say it's bad. Is it worse than Collison's?

Collison is an average NBA level defender, Nash isnt as bad of a defender as people think by there are very basic things he just doesn't so defensively. Collison is a much better defender than Nash

Mackey_Rose
02-06-2012, 09:32 AM
Can somebody provide some more details about Nash's defense? I just hear people say it's bad. Is it worse than Collison's?

He's never been a great defender. You don't trade for him because of what he'll do for you defensively, by any means. However, you trade for him because of what he'd bring to the other 4 guys around him offensively. He'd make everybody demonstratively better.

As bad as he may be defensively, he's still a majorly positive contributor overall. Even more positively than the commonly accepted best point guard in the league, and certainly more so than Collison.

http://www.82games.com/1112/11PHO1.HTM

This season he's giving up 18.4 points on 17.6 shots with a .457 eFG%, 7.6 assists, and 5.0 rebounds, for a PER of 11.3 on a per-48 minute basis, to his point guard counterparts.

On the other end, he's scoring 21.9 points on 16.3 shots with a .580 eFG%, 15.2 assists, and 3.6 rebounds, for a PER of 21.4 on a per-48 minute basis.

He has a net-positive PER of 10.2

http://www.82games.com/1112/11IND1.HTM

Collison is giving up 17.5 points on 16.1 shots with a .442 eFG%, 6.8 assists, and 4.5 rebounds, for a PER of 10.9 on a per-48 minute basis, to his point guard counterparts.

Offensively, he is scoring 15.4 points on 13.0 shots with a .449 eFG%, 7.4 assists, and 5.0 rebounds, for a PER of 13.3 on a per-48 minute basis.

He has a net-positive PER of 2.4

http://www.82games.com/1112/11LAC1.HTM

Chris Paul is giving up 19.3 points on 15.1 shots with a .496 eFG%, 9.1 assists, and 4.7 rebounds, for a PER of 17.1 on a per-48 minute basis, to his point guard coutnerparts.

Offensively, he is scoring 22.2 points on 17.1 shots with a .528 eFG%, 11.5 assists, and 4.6 rebounds, for a PER of 23.4 on a per-48 minute basis.

He has a net-positive PER of 6.3

Ace E.Anderson
02-06-2012, 09:41 AM
I would think that the defense of PG, DG, and Big Roy in the middle would help make up for Nash's lack of defense. Plus when we play teams with great PG's (Bulls, Nets, etc) we normally end up putting paul on them anyway's, leaving the small DC to guard 2-guards. Either way, we have the same issue.

But

Our offense would immediately go from being one of the worst in the league to having the potential of being nearly potent. Think of the easier looks our scorers would have with Nash at the Point, not to mention the fact that he's a dead-eye shooter himself.

Pacerized
02-06-2012, 10:17 AM
I thought Nash was a little younger. He'll turn 39 during the 12/13 season. I'd think at this point he'd only be looking for a year to year contract. He's no different then a rental in that he certainly wouldn't be worth giving up a young prospect or a 1st.
As much as I'd like to improve the team this year, I think if we need to be patient and not trade away any assets for a player like this. If Rondo were available that would be different due to his reasonable contract and age.
If we just let things play out until free agency Larry has room to bring in 2 impact players or 1 max contract player. I'm fine with waiting on PG and hope he makes a major stride next season. If we brought in Kaman and Nash during the summer I think we're contending for a title next year. Deron and a less expensive backup 5 and we would be as well. Nash and Kaman are a lot more realistic. Sadly if we bring in Nash, he won't be here to see the best of Hibbert or PG, but I'd still do it.

holmes
02-06-2012, 10:22 AM
I would think that the defense of PG, DG, and Big Roy in the middle would help make up for Nash's lack of defense. Plus when we play teams with great PG's (Bulls, Nets, etc) we normally end up putting paul on them anyway's, leaving the small DC to guard 2-guards. Either way, we have the same issue.

But

Our offense would immediately go from being one of the worst in the league to having the potential of being nearly potent. Think of the easier looks our scorers would have with Nash at the Point, not to mention the fact that he's a dead-eye shooter himself.
What he said! Also Mark Jackson was no defensive presence but look at what he meant to the team in the 90s. Also Nash in 2.5 years here ( if we can get a 2 yr. extension ) will do more for the franchise than Collison will do in 10 seasons, and I am a Collison fan.

Anthem
02-06-2012, 11:07 AM
So what's Pheonix looking for in terms of price?

PacerPenguins
02-06-2012, 11:12 AM
i don't know about this...... i wouldn't do more than DC filler and 1st (filler someone like lou or price) for nash. saying that we would have 2 years to win a title.... then after nash is done we have to look for another PG when we could still have DC growing up in the system.... i don't know...

beast23
02-06-2012, 11:25 AM
Steve Nash
On the other end, he's scoring 21.9 points on 16.3 shots with a .580 eFG%, 15.2 assists, and 3.6 rebounds, for a PER of 21.4 on a per-48 minute basis.

Chris Paul
Offensively, he is scoring 22.2 points on 17.1 shots with a .528 eFG%, 11.5 assists, and 4.6 rebounds, for a PER of 23.4 on a per-48 minute basis.

Something appears messed up, Mackey.

Nash has the better offensive stat line (except for RBs), yet Paul has the better PER. Why?

Mackey_Rose
02-06-2012, 11:45 AM
Something appears messed up, Mackey.

Nash has the better offensive stat line (except for RBs), yet Paul has the better PER. Why?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nashst01&y1=2012&p2=paulch01&y2=2012&p3=collida01&y3=2012

Per-36 Steve Nash: 16.8 points, 11.4 assists, 2.9 rebounds, 0.7 steals, 4.0 turnovers = PER of 23.1

Per-36 Chris Paul: 18.2 points, 9.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds, 2.5 steals, 2.0 turnovers = PER of 25.9

Per-36 Darren Collison: 12.0 points, 5.7 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 1.0 steals, 2.1 turnovers = PER of 14.1

I used 82games for the first comparison, because it's the only site I know of that has solid defensive stats. I generally prefer Basketball Reference because it's always more up-to-date, and I like per-36 numbers more than per-48. For instance, using BR's numbers, the PER's for all three players is a bit improved.

The reason Paul has a better PER this season, is mostly due to the differential in steals and turnovers between them, although the slight points and rebound differentials help as well. Steals and turnovers are a pretty big component in PER calculation, but I'm not even going to bother trying to explain all that. It's pretty overly technical, but use this link if you want to try to learn for yourself.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html


The Player Efficiency Rating (PER) is a per-minute rating developed by ESPN.com columnist John Hollinger. In John's words, "The PER sums up all a player's positive accomplishments, subtracts the negative accomplishments, and returns a per-minute rating of a player's performance."

vnzla81
02-06-2012, 12:02 PM
Some ESPN guy on twitter is comparing Nash numbers in his MVP year to this year and the numbers are similar.

LA_Confidential
02-06-2012, 12:03 PM
i don't know about this...... i wouldn't do more than DC filler and 1st (filler someone like lou or price) for nash. saying that we would have 2 years to win a title.... then after nash is done we have to look for another PG when we could still have DC growing up in the system.... i don't know...

We'd still have Lance. Either way, as long as the Suns demands don't go overboard then you take Nash and run. They need to show mercy and send him to us anyhow. Were one of the few teams in the league that has a real chance to compete with little to no "star power". Adding Nash brings a spotlight to what's going on here in INDY. If Larry swings a deal for Nash then he is the obvious choice for an Executive of the Year Award.

Kid Minneapolis
02-06-2012, 12:03 PM
I only do this if the Pacers brass really thinks they have a chance of winning it all in the next 1-2 years with Nash.

I'm not really thinking that's the case.

Sparhawk
02-06-2012, 12:25 PM
If we look to trade for Nash, please try to grab Lopez too.

Lopez is barely getting playing time with Gortat and Frye eating most of the minutes.

tadscout
02-06-2012, 12:26 PM
So what's Pheonix looking for in terms of price?

The Suns have said repeatedly they won't trade Nash unless he asks to be traded... Nash has looked point blank at reporters and has said he's not that type of person that would ask for a trade, and he can't walk away from his teammates.

So unless one side does a 180, he isn't even available for a trade... the whole 'willing to consider' part from the suns isn't about if the price is right, it's about willing to do so to respect Nash if he wants to be traded.

CableKC
02-06-2012, 12:29 PM
I only do this if the Pacers brass really thinks they have a chance of winning it all in the next 1-2 years with Nash.

I'm not really thinking that's the case.
Why do you think this?

Just because of the existence of the SuperTeams, is there no chance of winning a Championship over the next 2 seasons?

I'm looking at the next 2 seasons as the window to win it all...this is how long we have West and 1 year short of when Granger becomes a UFA.....before the both of them likely bolts for greener pastures.

Is it realistic?

Probably not with the current roster....but is it possible if we can continue to build upon the existing foundation that we have built?

I think so.

If there is a chance to even RENT Nash without costing a 1st AND Collison ( but one or the other )...I'd consider it. Getting Nash builds upon what we have and gives us a better chance to win in the near future.

vnzla81
02-06-2012, 12:33 PM
Here is the tweet I was talking about.


@tomhaberstroh
For example: Steve Nash in his 2 MVP seasons: 17.2 ppg, 11.0 apg, 22.6 PER. The 2 seasons after? 17.7 ppg, 11.4 apg, 22.4 PER.

CableKC
02-06-2012, 12:39 PM
The Suns have said repeatedly they won't trade Nash unless he asks to be traded... Nash has looked point blank at reporters and has said he's not that type of person that would ask for a trade, and he can't walk away from his teammates.

So unless one side does a 180, he isn't even available for a trade... the whole 'willing to consider' part from the suns isn't about if the price is right, it's about willing to do so to respect Nash if he wants to be traded.
I'm reading some posts from the Suns RealGM board about this...and it's pretty much what you say. If Nash said that it's best to part ways...then the Suns will accomodate him...I can see see the Suns even getting back less "trade value" in return if Nash asked the Suns to send him to a Team of his choosing....but at the same time...I can see Nash pushing the opposing Team to send back good value so that the Suns aren't totally left in a lurch.

The FO has essentially said that Nash has earned the right to decide his own destiny with the Suns. They are doing something similar with Grant Hill. It's part of the culture that the Suns FO is trying to build. If anything, this is commendable.....especially when you see Teams like the Knicks do anything to anyone in order to get the Players that they want. It sounds like the FO has likely fielded offers to gauge his trade value....deemed it not worth the few months that they'd lose Nash and decided to go the "safe and admirable PR route" to simply let Nash go for nothing in Free Agency.

Although I can see Nash leaving via FA to the Team of his choice...I am going to guess ( again ) that Nash's Agent will work out some better S&T deal that would net Nash more $$$$ and the Suns "something, anything" in return so that they don't lose Nash for nothing.

CableKC
02-06-2012, 12:43 PM
If we look to trade for Nash, please try to grab Lopez too.

Lopez is barely getting playing time with Gortat and Frye eating most of the minutes.
If I didn't care about Jared Dudley's contract being so long...I'd try to get Nash, Lopez and Dudley to fill out the roster.

Hicks
02-06-2012, 12:54 PM
My issues are the same as before. He's 39 (or soon will be), and he won't come cheap. Pass, and maybe you take a stab at getting him next summer (though I doubt it).

Pacer Fan
02-06-2012, 01:06 PM
Please No. He has no future here and we need to create a team that can subdue the Bulls and Heat. Not blow the cap on a 38 yr. old that will get crushed by the Bulls and Heat in a playoff series.

He is a great player, but it's the wrong place, wrong time for him to be here!

15th parallel
02-06-2012, 01:22 PM
If there's a chance to get him, if I'm one of the top guys at FO I'll consider it very well. The main question really is the asking price of the Suns. Nash is only one of the few who gets to fit into any coach's style, so in terms of how well he'll fit is not much of a problem. If the Suns ask for too much, or a big part of our current core, then that will be really risky considering that Nash will be just a "rental" this season should we trade for him.

Mackey_Rose
02-06-2012, 01:34 PM
So what's Pheonix looking for in terms of price?

For argument's sake, let's say it is only Collison and our 2012 1st round pick.

Would anybody even hesitate at that?

Gamble1
02-06-2012, 01:37 PM
For argument's sake, let's say it is only Collison and our 2012 1st round pick.

Would anybody even hesitate at that?
Meh,
If he signed a extension that was like 8 million or so then ya I would "consider" that.

I look at it as Collisons really not a player I want to bring back after his rookie contract so Nash is money worth spent compared to Collison on a similar deal.

J7F
02-06-2012, 01:40 PM
For argument's sake, let's say it is only Collison and our 2012 1st round pick.

Would anybody even hesitate at that?

Yes...

Pacer Fan
02-06-2012, 01:45 PM
Also, Mark Jackson was a part of the Pacers success. He was a floor general.

I, personally couldn't stand watching him play because of his inabilities surpassed his abilities.

The TV / He as a coach can spin it however they want today, but I know the truth and he would so **** me off game after game. I had always said that if the Pacers had a faster point guard that had 1/2 his court vision that they would have been winning Championships. His team play did not make up for his inabilities. Especially in the playoffs, he was always more exposed.

The best description I can give Jackson is "Old Reliable". Not necessarily a good thing.

vnzla81
02-06-2012, 01:47 PM
For argument's sake, let's say it is only Collison and our 2012 1st round pick.

Would anybody even hesitate at that?

I would love to keep DC but is that is their asking price you do it, as I posted before his numbers are as good as when he was the MVP he can make us contenders immediately.

ksuttonjr76
02-06-2012, 01:50 PM
The Suns have said repeatedly they won't trade Nash unless he asks to be traded... Nash has looked point blank at reporters and has said he's not that type of person that would ask for a trade, and he can't walk away from his teammates.

So unless one side does a 180, he isn't even available for a trade... the whole 'willing to consider' part from the suns isn't about if the price is right, it's about willing to do so to respect Nash if he wants to be traded.

If I was the FO, I would probably trade Nash regardless, HOWEVER, I would try my hardest to make sure that he was traded to a contender.

Afterwards, I would tell Nash personally, "You were too nice, and it's for your own good. Now, go try to win a championship to add to your resume.".

Hicks
02-06-2012, 02:01 PM
For argument's sake, let's say it is only Collison and our 2012 1st round pick.

Would anybody even hesitate at that?

Yes, though less than I would have a month ago. I think more of this team now than I did then, so maybe it really would be enough to reach the Finals, but I just don't like trading a guy who's in his 3rd year and doing okay at his position for an admittedly great guy who has to be getting pretty damned close to the end of this.

I like trading youth for prime players, not so hot about trading youth for end-of-career guys. He's still playing great, but I really question how much longer that will be the case. It's a miracle he's done all that he has since Dallas punted on him many years ago. Eventually the wheels will come off, right?

Mackey_Rose
02-06-2012, 02:09 PM
Yes...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2012&year_max=2012&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=ast_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=5&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=per

There are 31 players in the NBA averaging at least 20 minutes and 5 assists per game. Not all of these guys are point guards, but most of them are.

Collison is 28th when you sort it by PER.

He may be getting better, but he isn't irreplaceable. I think you take the chance on a Nash rental for this season. You hope he will re-sign with you in the off-season. If he opts to go somewhere else, you can probably find another point guard to replace Collison without losing much.

Nash makes this team easily the 3rd best team in the conference. I don't really think anybody can beat the Heat in 7 games this year, but we'd have a much better chance to do with with Nash than we would with DC. I think it's pretty much a no-brainer if all you're giving up is Collison and a late 1st round pick.

Sparhawk
02-06-2012, 02:17 PM
Yes, though less than I would have a month ago. I think more of this team now than I did then, so maybe it really would be enough to reach the Finals, but I just don't like trading a guy who's in his 3rd year and doing okay at his position for an admittedly great guy who has to be getting pretty damned close to the end of this.

I like trading youth for prime players, not so hot about trading youth for end-of-career guys. He's still playing great, but I really question how much longer that will be the case. It's a miracle he's done all that he has since Dallas punted on him many years ago. Eventually the wheels will come off, right?

The dude keeps himself in phenomenal shape.

I'd do a first and DC for Nash, but I'd try to find a way to get Lopez though. We still need a backup big.

Hicks
02-06-2012, 02:18 PM
I think you take the chance on a Nash rental for this season. You hope he will re-sign with you in the off-season. If he opts to go somewhere else, you can probably find another point guard to replace Collison without losing much.

Just like that? I'm not so sure it'll be that easy to recover if Nash leaves. We'll have no Nash, no DC, and it's not a guarantee yet that we'll have Hill, either. We don't have a Troy Murphy-esque trade waiting for us this time to get another one, either. And without our 1st rounder, we're not going to draft him, either.


Nash makes this team easily the 3rd best team in the conference. I don't really think anybody can beat the Heat in 7 games this year, but we'd have a much better chance to do with with Nash than we would with DC. I think it's pretty much a no-brainer if all you're giving up is Collison and a late 1st round pick.

I think we already are the 3rd best team in the conference. At worst tied with Philly for that distinction. I think with Nash we could beat Miami, but I'm puzzled why you would even push for renting him if you don't believe that we could win. It's a total wasted trade if that's what you project.

Mackey_Rose
02-06-2012, 02:26 PM
Just like that? I'm not so sure it'll be that easy to recover if Nash leaves. We'll have no Nash, no DC, and it's not a guarantee yet that we'll have Hill, either. We don't have a Troy Murphy-esque trade waiting for us this time to get another one, either. And without our 1st rounder, we're not going to draft him, either.



I think we already are the 3rd best team in the conference. At worst tied with Philly for that distinction. I think with Nash we could beat Miami, but I'm puzzled why you would even push for renting him if you don't believe that we could win. It's a total wasted trade if that's what you project.

I think we'd have a better chance of signing him in the off-season if he's on the roster this year, than we would otherwise.

As is, I can't think of any logical reason why he wouldn't sign with the Knicks if he was going to leave Phoenix.

ksuttonjr76
02-06-2012, 02:35 PM
Nash makes this team easily the 3rd best team in the conference. I don't really think anybody can beat the Heat in 7 games this year, but we'd have a much better chance to do with with Nash than we would with DC. I think it's pretty much a no-brainer if all you're giving up is Collison and a late 1st round pick.

I disagree. Miami Heat's PG spot is really not an area of concern for me if Indiana goes against them in the playoffs. I would even argue that Collison would be the better answer due to his speed and quickness over Chalmers. Even then, I don't REALLY don't believe that Miami is that much of a matchup problem for Indiana as long as Hibbert continues to play the way he does. Chicago can't exploit the middle like we can against Miami.

Mackey_Rose
02-06-2012, 02:41 PM
I disagree. Miami Heat's PG spot is really not an area of concern for me if Indiana goes against them in the playoffs. I would even argue that Collison would be the better answer due to his speed and quickness over Chalmers. Even then, I don't REALLY don't believe that Miami is that much of a matchup problem for Indiana as long as Hibbert continues to play the way he does. Chicago can't exploit the middle like we can against Miami.

It's not about how we'd match-up with their point guard. It's about how Steve Nash would help the other four positions match-up with their Miami counterparts.

If we don't make any changes, we don't have a big enough advantage anywhere in the line-up to make up for the massive advantage they have on the wings.

SycamoreKen
02-06-2012, 02:43 PM
I'm reading some posts from the Suns RealGM board about this...and it's pretty much what you say. If Nash said that it's best to part ways...then the Suns will accomodate him...I can see see the Suns even getting back less "trade value" in return if Nash asked the Suns to send him to a Team of his choosing....but at the same time...I can see Nash pushing the opposing Team to send back good value so that the Suns aren't totally left in a lurch.

The FO has essentially said that Nash has earned the right to decide his own destiny with the Suns. They are doing something similar with Grant Hill. It's part of the culture that the Suns FO is trying to build. If anything, this is commendable.....especially when you see Teams like the Knicks do anything to anyone in order to get the Players that they want. It sounds like the FO has likely fielded offers to gauge his trade value....deemed it not worth the few months that they'd lose Nash and decided to go the "safe and admirable PR route" to simply let Nash go for nothing in Free Agency.

Although I can see Nash leaving via FA to the Team of his choice...I am going to guess ( again ) that Nash's Agent will work out some better S&T deal that would net Nash more $$$$ and the Suns "something, anything" in return so that they don't lose Nash for nothing.

While all the "respecting Nash's ability to choose his own ending with the Suns" line the management is pushing might be true, I get the feeling they are not making a move because of the negative pr, though it would probably be good for the team. While he and Hill are honorable guys, it's not like they have brought titles to town. Nash's over exaggerated flop into the scorers table against the spurs may have cost them one.

vnzla81
02-06-2012, 02:52 PM
While all the "respecting Nash's ability to choose his own ending with the Suns" line the management is pushing might be true, I get the feeling they are not making a move because of the negative pr, though it would probably be good for the team. While he and Hill are honorable guys, it's not like they have brought titles to town. Nash's over exaggerated flop into the scorers table against the spurs may have cost them one.

Flop?

PaceBalls
02-06-2012, 03:03 PM
Obviously getting Nash would help, but I could see Nash's D getting Roy in alot of foul trouble as he is constantly having to come over to defend driving guards. DC has been pretty solid on D as far as keeping his man in front of him this year which is letting Roy stay in the games.

The other thing about Nash, he might be 38, but he treats his body so well he could be considered younger.

righteouscool
02-06-2012, 03:03 PM
a first and collison is a lot to give up for a rental when you can just get him in the off season on a decent contract. we aren't winning the finals this year. why not just wait and add young players through the draft, keep collison who would be a killer backup, AND add nash?

Gamble1
02-06-2012, 03:05 PM
Just like that? I'm not so sure it'll be that easy to recover if Nash leaves. We'll have no Nash, no DC, and it's not a guarantee yet that we'll have Hill, either. We don't have a Troy Murphy-esque trade waiting for us this time to get another one, either. And without our 1st rounder, we're not going to draft him, either.
If Nash left there is Aaron Brooks and RFA DJ Augustin. Personally I think its pretty risky but I could see replacements for Collison who is going to get paid sooner than later.

Kid Minneapolis
02-06-2012, 03:15 PM
Why do you think this?

Just because of the existence of the SuperTeams, is there no chance of winning a Championship over the next 2 seasons?

I'm looking at the next 2 seasons as the window to win it all...this is how long we have West and 1 year short of when Granger becomes a UFA.....before the both of them likely bolts for greener pastures.

Is it realistic?

Probably not with the current roster....but is it possible if we can continue to build upon the existing foundation that we have built?

I think so.

If there is a chance to even RENT Nash without costing a 1st AND Collison ( but one or the other )...I'd consider it. Getting Nash builds upon what we have and gives us a better chance to win in the near future.

You misunderstood me and read waayyy to much into what I said. My point was not that we were incapable of winning a ring.... but rather are we capable of winning a championship adding Nash to our roster. Maybe 3-4 years ago, sure... but now I don't think he's the guy to take us there. And you only have a maybe 2 year window with him. So is it worth it?

I don't really think so. Do I think we're capable of winning a ring in that time frame? We're not quite there yet, but with the right roster moves it is possible. It just depends on the roster moves. But Nash is not my idea of a championship-level roster move. Substitute in Rondo or maybe DWill and ask me again.

BringJackBack
02-06-2012, 03:35 PM
If Larry thinks we could win it this year, sure, go get Steve Nash for say DC or George Hill and a first. Preferably Darren.

If not, go after Steve in the summer and keep our assets while looking for another piece to add like Morrow or Kaman as old examples...

Nash would be a fantastic addition to our team. He's everything you want in a point guard offensively. He is still playing fantastic ball on a horrible team; he will be around for a while longer. As we await our championship point guard as this team hits their prime two-three years from now, we have Nash and Darren to give us 48 minutes of above average point guard play.

Steve Nash would get Paul and Danny good looks and we would actually put David West to good use on offense by being able to play to his strength, the pick n pop. From the looks of it, these guys plus a Steve Nash could realistically give us a (small) chance to beat Miami and Chicago in the east. I would rather wait and pursue him or Andre Miller in the offseason without giving up assets, but if we have a chance to make it then we must as well try to give our competition all we've got

Interesting situation here nonetheless....

CableKC
02-06-2012, 04:30 PM
For argument's sake, let's say it is only Collison and our 2012 1st round pick.

Would anybody even hesitate at that?
For both DC and a 1st?

I'm on the fence....I'm not sure if the Pacers are overpaying.

I'd possibly consider it if it was more like:

DC+Pendegraph+1st

for

Nash+Robin Lopez+2nd round Pick

I honestly don't know....I'd just hope that Bird and the FO can gauge what the likelihood of Nash staying for another year or two is.

However, I wouldn't really do anything until I know whether Deron Williams stays with the Nets or ends up on the Knicks ( which is totally dependent on where Dwight ends up ). If Dwight ends up in NJ, then Deron will likely stay in NJ...hence increasing the possibility of Nash joining D'Antoni in MSG. But if Dwight ends up elsewhere and the Nets are forced to move Deron...then I can see him ending up with the Knicks...hence removing the Knicks/D'Antoni from the list of FA Options.

Sparhawk
02-06-2012, 04:42 PM
For both DC and a 1st?

I'm on the fence....I'm not sure if the Pacers are overpaying.

I'd possibly consider it if it was more like:

DC+Pendegraph+1st

for

Nash+Robin Lopez+2nd round Pick

I honestly don't know....I'd just hope that Bird and the FO can gauge what the likelihood of Nash staying for another year or two is.

However, I wouldn't really do anything until I know whether Deron Williams stays with the Nets or ends up on the Knicks ( which is totally dependent on where Dwight ends up ). If Dwight ends up in NJ, then Deron will likely stay in NJ...hence increasing the possibility of Nash joining D'Antoni in MSG. But if Dwight ends up elsewhere and the Nets are forced to move Deron...then I can see him ending up with the Knicks...hence removing the Knicks/D'Antoni from the list of FA Options.

I was thinking something like that as well.

CableKC
02-06-2012, 04:44 PM
You misunderstood me and read waayyy to much into what I said. My point was not that we were incapable of winning a ring.... but rather are we capable of winning a championship adding Nash to our roster. Maybe 3-4 years ago, sure... but now I don't think he's the guy to take us there. And you only have a maybe 2 year window with him. So is it worth it?

I don't really think so. Do I think we're capable of winning a ring in that time frame? We're not quite there yet, but with the right roster moves it is possible. It just depends on the roster moves. But Nash is not my idea of a championship-level roster move. Substitute in Rondo or maybe DWill and ask me again.
1st question....could we win a Championship with either Rondo or DWill instead of Nash?

My guess is that we probably can.

2nd question....can we get either Rondo or DWill without gutting our roster and dismantling a good part of our core?

My guess is not likely.

I will use that phrase everyone here loves to hate..."we will agree to disagree".

With our current core of "Starting 7" Players....I think that we are 2 solid Players away from being a Contender that can compete against the SuperTeams. So, I can see reasons why we wouldn't make a move for Nash.

For me, I can go with either options as I see merits with both options...however, I lean more towards the "gamble and see what we can do with Nash" options.

I don't think that our defense would be any worse than it is now ( my guess is that Vogel will continue with "PaulGeorge / Inferno / Lance" guarding the opposing Team's PG like we are doing now while our Point Guard defends the opposing Team's SG ) ....while our offense ( the weaker part of our game ) would greatly improve. But this begs the question of whether Nash would be open to staying on for another season or two and therefore what the price that we'd have to pay in order to get him.

90'sNBARocked
02-06-2012, 04:48 PM
Just like that? I'm not so sure it'll be that easy to recover if Nash leaves. We'll have no Nash, no DC, and it's not a guarantee yet that we'll have Hill, either. We don't have a Troy Murphy-esque trade waiting for us this time to get another one, either. And without our 1st rounder, we're not going to draft him, either.



I think we already are the 3rd best team in the conference. At worst tied with Philly for that distinction. I think with Nash we could beat Miami, but I'm puzzled why you would even push for renting him if you don't believe that we could win. It's a total wasted trade if that's what you project.

Orlando might beg to differ

McKeyFan
02-06-2012, 05:21 PM
I disagree. Miami Heat's PG spot is really not an area of concern for me if Indiana goes against them in the playoffs. I would even argue that Collison would be the better answer due to his speed and quickness over Chalmers. Even then, I don't REALLY don't believe that Miami is that much of a matchup problem for Indiana as long as Hibbert continues to play the way he does. Chicago can't exploit the middle like we can against Miami.

Let's see . . . you don't think we would be better against Miami with Nash instead of DC. In fact, DC may be even better "due to his speed and quickness over Chalmers."

This being the same Chalmers who torched us from the outside and helped lead the worst drubbing we have received all year?

:therock:

LetsTalkPacers
02-06-2012, 05:35 PM
They almost made it to the finals with Nash, Amare and Marion, I'm pretty sure they have a better chance in making it to the finals with Amare, Melo, Chandler and Nash.
yea but amare, marion, and nash were all in their prime then too. Also Im not convinced Melo will ever be a "winner". Kind of like Iverson or Tmac (loose reference)

beast23
02-06-2012, 05:36 PM
a first and collison is a lot to give up for a rental when you can just get him in the off season on a decent contract. we aren't winning the finals this year. why not just wait and add young players through the draft, keep collison who would be a killer backup, AND add nash?
First off, this is a very strange season. Who is to say that we would not have any chance of winning a title with Nash added to the team? Personally, I believe adding Nash puts us ahead of Chicago. I'm not sure about Miami, but like I said, it is a strange season. So, who knows?

What I am sure of is that we have about 0% chance of signing Nash this summer without him first being on our roster through a trade this season. He will have established no history with our organization and its players and would most certainly overlook us to play elsewhere.

If we were to trade for Nash and he decided to leave anyway following the season, then I do believe that there would be free agent SGs available that would look at our roster and easily conclude that all they have to do is sign and they will step immediately into a starting position. That's not a terrible position to be in, for the player or for the front office.

One that I believe could see that right away would be Kirk Hinrich. He's a great PG who has been relegated to be a backup for 3 years now behind excellent younger talent. He could easily step in and start for us.

So, getting Nash now, even if it did not work out in the summer would not necessarily be a bad thing. I would bet that if we were to get Nash now and he worked out, he might be very willing to sign a contract for a couple of years at a decent reduction under what he was formerly making.

PR07
02-06-2012, 05:39 PM
I think at this point, seeing how the West is weaker than normal at the top, and that we aren't too far from Miami or Chicago in the East, that I would highly consider making such a move.

If we could get Nash for Collison+First, it would be awfully tempting. Even if Nash bolts to join D'Antoni in New York or something of that nature, the Pacers could always sign someone like DJ Augustin in free agency. Do I think he's as good as Collison? No, but I don't think we'd lose that much.

Steve Nash would make us a contender, and I'd be especially intrigued to see how we could match up against the Heat. In our previous matchup, Miami suffocated our offense by trapping and constantly forcing our offense to start well beyond the three point line. I don't see that happening with Nash, he would make them pay. It also works out well that we could stick him on Chalmers who while can score, isn't exactly a scorer by any teams.

I do think it would hurt us some against Chicago at least defensively because who guards Rose? Hamilton's a little too tall to stick Nash on, and Deng's too big.

ECKrueger
02-06-2012, 05:45 PM
For both DC and a 1st?

I'm on the fence....I'm not sure if the Pacers are overpaying.

I'd possibly consider it if it was more like:

DC+Pendegraph+1st

for

Nash+Robin Lopez+2nd round Pick

I honestly don't know....I'd just hope that Bird and the FO can gauge what the likelihood of Nash staying for another year or two is.

This I agree with. Nash for DC/1 is very iffy to me. I love Nash, probably favorite non-Pacer, and he'd be a fantastic addition to the team. Like others have said though, he leaves after the year and we are left with nothing. If it is the proposed trade above, I think I could accept that.

However, I don't know if DC/1 is enough for Nash, and I don't really think they'd add Lopez and a 2 for Pendergraph.

Not to mention, I don't think he'll ask for a trade, and I don't think they'll trade him if he doesn't. I wish we could just get him for cap space like Kaman ...

mattie
02-06-2012, 05:57 PM
Not sure Nash would be the greatest addition considering his age, but I do think at least against the Bulls in a playoff series with Nash we'd have no problems beating them. Nash is taller than the average point guard, and would actually do a decent job defending Rip. Nash is great at getting through screens and following his man around. He just cannot stop any sort of penetration. Ever.

With that lineup I actually think the Pacers would stomp the Bulls. We'd have a net win at nearly every position maybe all of them. Roy, West and Granger are better than Noah, the worst PF ever, and Deng.

Really I have no doubt in my mind it would make the Pacers immediately better. It's just I hope their is a long term plan to contend year after year, and that means building a young team around each other. I'm afraid acquiring Nash could hurt the Pacers long term chances by tying up cap space and removing the Pacers as players for other young viable talent around the league. I don't know if their is truth to that. Something tells me that. It's a bit complicated though.

Whatever they do, I hope Bird keeps all those factors in mind before attempting a trade.

J7F
02-06-2012, 06:21 PM
Orlando might beg to differ

And Orlando would be wrong :)

They can beat us and anyone else when their 3 is dropping... If not... They are toast...

Hicks
02-07-2012, 01:23 AM
I still don't fear Orlando in a 7-game series. Between their dependency on 3's, Vogel's ability to make adjustments, and the way we generally play our game, I just think we come away with the 4 W's we need. Not sure on how many games that will take, but nonetheless.

AesopRockOn
02-07-2012, 02:55 AM
I'm flabbergasted that anyone would consider Darren Collison and the twenty-somethingth pick in a draft more valuable than Steve Nash.

SycamoreKen
02-07-2012, 07:36 AM
Flop?

When Horry hip checked him. Nash the soccer player made that look much worse than it was. Then his teammates Overreacted and got suspended which cost them. Of course I would take him in a second.

Pacerized
02-07-2012, 10:39 AM
I'm flabbergasted that anyone would consider Darren Collison and the twenty-somethingth pick in a draft more valuable than Steve Nash.

I just think DC and a 1st. are more valuable then Steve Nash for 25 games.
There's no guarantee that he'd want to stay here as a free angent next year and even if he did it may very likely be his last year. I don't want to give away a young player and a pick for any player under those circumstances when they can be had for nothing this summer.

Sparhawk
02-07-2012, 10:45 AM
That's why it needs to be something like this:

DC, first, Pends
for
Nash & Lopez

Jose Slaughter
02-07-2012, 11:01 AM
I would trade for Nash if this was a "normal" regular season but with the condensed schedule with little practice time available & little chance to rest Nash I would only pull the trigger if I thought he might be around for at least one more season.

Pacerized
02-07-2012, 11:03 AM
That's why it needs to be something like this:

DC, first, Pends
for
Nash & Lopez

That would be better and I wouldn't gripe too much about it, but I still wouldn't do it. In a year we would've traded DC and a 1st. for Lopez.
I'd love to have Nash next year but the only way I want us doing it now is as a salary dump or after a buyout which the Suns should do for him if he isn't traded by the deadline.
On a side note, Lopez taken 15th. in the 2008 draft, Hibbert taken 17th. in the same draft. Maybe we do owe the Suns one.

Shade
02-07-2012, 12:23 PM
I would love to have Nash here, but I see no reason to overpay for him, especially given his age and contract status.

Offer Price, both of our 2012 picks, and cap space. That gives Phoenix three young players and cap space to rebuild with, which is what they'll be doing if they trade Nash.

vnzla81
02-07-2012, 12:30 PM
Sports Illustrated @SInow
Details Phoenix Suns guard @The_Real_Nash turns 38 today. Still leads the NBA by averaging 10 assists per game. #Nashty

naptownmenace
02-07-2012, 12:55 PM
Also, Mark Jackson was a part of the Pacers success. He was a floor general.

I, personally couldn't stand watching him play because of his inabilities surpassed his abilities.

The TV / He as a coach can spin it however they want today, but I know the truth and he would so **** me off game after game. I had always said that if the Pacers had a faster point guard that had 1/2 his court vision that they would have been winning Championships. His team play did not make up for his inabilities. Especially in the playoffs, he was always more exposed.

The best description I can give Jackson is "Old Reliable". Not necessarily a good thing.

I'll disagree just a little. He was an inconsistent player scoring and defensively until the 99-2000 season. I think that's when he had his best season with the Pacers. He hit over 40% behind the 3-point line that season and became less of a sieve on defense. That changed everything.

However, Travis Best would often close games out in the fourth quarter because he was a much better defender and scorer.

I used to say that Mark and Travis equalled one really good point guard.

DrFife
02-07-2012, 12:55 PM
How do I insert an image from the Internet? I'm in the camp that wants both Kaman AND Nash THIS season. I keep thinking about a bangers-and-mash t-shirt with Chris & Steve's faces embedded. (Okay, so Kaman's not a true banger; work with me!) Maybe Claddagh would be a sponsor? :D

naptownmenace
02-07-2012, 02:53 PM
How do I insert an image from the Internet? I'm in the camp that wants both Kaman AND Nash THIS season. I keep thinking about a bangers-and-mash t-shirt with Chris & Steve's faces embedded. (Okay, so Kaman's not a true banger; work with me!) Maybe Claddagh would be a sponsor? :D

Isn't Nash Canadian and Kaman German?

:confused:

http://www.nwsportsbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Steve-Nash-Canadian-Olympic-Team-Photo-e1327650690808.jpg
http://media.mlive.com/grpress/sports_impact/photo/9919625-large.jpg

vnzla81
02-07-2012, 03:03 PM
When Horry hip checked him. Nash the soccer player made that look much worse than it was. Then his teammates Overreacted and got suspended which cost them. Of course I would take him in a second.

Yeah I don't know about that.

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