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Peck
02-04-2012, 03:14 AM
There are so many things to talk about tonight. Obviously we had a breakout game by a player, a few other very good games from other players and some downright outstanding coaching from both benches.

But two things stand out the most for me tonight.

First, people we beat the NBA Champions on their court. I donít care if they are missing Chandler (he wouldnít have changed a thing tonight) and I donít care who else is not there. They are, until we crown a new one, the reigning champions and we just wiped the floor with them.

Two, & really this is several items all wrapped into one, we won another game which is now our 4th win in a row. This was our 10th win in 15 road games and this was the first win in Dallas since 2004 when Rick Carlisle set on our bench.

It can no longer be denied, we are a team to be reckoned with. I have no idea how the season will end and I have no idea what the next game will bring but I can tell you this through the first 21 games of the season we truly are one of the best teams in the league and what should scare other teams is this fact, we are only getting better and more confident.

We win as a team and we lose as a team and tonightís victory is no different. Paul George is going to get all of the accolades and by all means he certainly deserves them. However he did not play the game by himself, there were other very important players who helped in this victory.

Also if you are a fan of coaching then this matchup was for you. Both benches were playing chess and the coach with the better younger talent won. Isnít that nice to say for a change btw?

Carlisle was brilliant once again, with his rotating zone and offensive play sets. However not to be outdone by him was Frank Vogel and his mixing and matching of players. Notice how Dahntay Jones is now playing a lot at the two? Sure you could say that he was forced into this by Hill being gone but after a few years it is just nice to see a coach who recognizes a matchup issue on the floor and adjust appropriately.

BTW, I have nothing but respect for several of the Maverick players. For Gods sake Dirk was just out of his mind good and anytime Vince Carter seeís a Pacers logo he is going to attempt to score I donít care if he is 60 and doing it, he will try. Fun fact, unless things have changed did you know that Vince Carter has scored more career points against the Pacers than any other player? Also for whatever reason, even when he was in Washington Brendon Haywood plays like Patrick Ewing against the Pacers. Tonight he wasnít as effective as he normally is but again he blocked four shots.

On the scale of important games and big wins this certainly is one of them. I donít think it really is more important than beating Chicago in Chicago or L.A. in L.A. but its right up there with them.

I just wish we had more time to rest before tomorrowís game but that is just the way the schedule falls, so Iíll take my victory and run with it.

Letís do grades for tonightís Odd Thoughtís.

Paul George: A+++ You wanted it, you got it. This was a breakout game no matter how you look at it. What I like the most about it though? Itís just one game of the previous three that Paul has been aggressive from the opening tip. What I like even more about his game? He is a two way player. For all of the great offense he gave you, and he was pretty much a one man zone buster out there, his defense was just as good. Special kudos to him for blocking that ball and keeping it in play and blocking it away from the basket so another Maverick could not just come along pick it up and score. I know everybody has already talked about his game so anything I have to say is going to be redundant. All I can tell you is that as I sat there watching him hit three after three after three all I could say to myself by the 4th one was damn.

Iím going to break tradition here and just go ahead and break out the dancing fruit & cheering characters now. This type of game deserves it.

:yay2::dancingsager::bgroovy::bgroovy::woot2::woot 2::woot2::yay::fireworks:fireworks:dance3::dance3: :bananadan:woohoo::bdance::dancers::dancingba:appl e::dorange::pineapple:carrot::mango::cucumber::roc k::carrot::rockon::rockon2::highfive::pepper::danc ingba


David West: A I can not tell you how important he was to the team tonight and this game. In the first half he went toe to toe with Dirk and only scored 6 fewer points than he did. David was aggressive and just kept taking it to him over and over and over. He certainly didnít stop Dirk but Dirk didnít stop him either. Also and I canít emphasize this enough. The defense he played on Dirk was outstanding for the most part. He was just out of his mind hitting shots all night. I mean for Godís sake one time I swear he was horizontal falling away from the basket and hit nothing but net. His experience playing often against the Mavericks paid off big tonight.

Danny Granger: B + Not his best shooting night but there were a couple of big things he did do that may go unnoticed. This may be as much credit to Frank as it was to him but both need to be recognized. In the 4th quarter they moved Danny over to guard Vince Carter quit a bit and he shut him down cold. I am fairly certain Vince didnít score again. Second he kept working the offensive glass all night, of course some of them were from his own misses so there is that. Also he contributed 5 assists for the game. You could look at him though and see he looked pretty tired most of the game.

Roy Hibbert: B + Like Danny he did not have a good shooting night but once again big Roy came through on the glass. 14 rebounds to go along with 2 blocked shots is still a good night even if you shoot 3-13 from the floor. He was rushing his shots tonight and a lot of that had to do with the defensive trapping that Carlisle had the Mavericks playing. Also while Roy will only be credited with blocking two shots anybody who watched that game knows he caused 2 other misses due to what we will now refer to as FOR Syndrome (Fear Of Roy). This is now something we are starting to see more often from teams as he has now legitimately become a shot blocking and defensive force in the NBA.

Darren Collison: A - Not a spectacular game but he was steady, controlled and did not make many errors all night. His shot was dropping and contrary to what Quinn said on the broadcast that three he missed was IMO a perfectly acceptable shot. He was wide open, it was off of a pass so itís not like he came down and pulled up for a shot and at the end of the day he has become a pretty good three point shooter. So I just think Quinn was wrong there. He also played solid defense all night long.

So in other words our starters as a starting unit played one heck of a game.

Dahntay Jones: B Again this guy has become our most consistent bench player much to the chagrin of many of you. His defense is always good if not spectacular and he no longer comes in and forces up bad shots. Tonight he got physical and I am certain that Kevin Love was on the phone complaining to the league office just as soon as he got to his locker room after his game. I love how he did not back down from Haywood.

On that note was I the only person who was sweating it when Danny came running up the floor? Danny God love him should have played in the 80ís & 90ís because he thrives off of a physical game and like Dahntay backs down from nobody. Also notice Frank sprinting out there to drag Danny away? Probably not the most mature thing to do on Dannyís part but I love his fighting spirit.

Lance Stephenson: C+ I am not sure why he didnít play more to be honest with you. I donít think he played bad at all but I understand that Frank may not have the comfort level with him at point guard. Since Dahntay played a lot at the 2 tonight this cut into Lanceís time. He had a great pass but he was so quick with it and put to much zip into it so the ball went through (I think it was Dannyís hands) out of bounds.

Ok here is where it is going to start getting harsh. The starters won this game with some help from Dahntay Jones but other than that the bench pretty much stunk.

Tyler Hansbrough: F I know that might be harsh but this funk has gone on for to long now. He is hesitant on offense, getís lost on defense and generally is about useless on the floor. One point and two rebounds in almost 20 min. on the floor? I honestly thought Lamar Odom was going to have a breakout game himself tonight but thank God he stunk as well because at first I thought he was just going to torch Tyler. Look I have no idea what is going on here. I mean this is a guy who the first two weeks of the season was as important to our club as any player on the roster but for the better part of three weeks now he has been beyond useless with a good moment or two sprinkled in here or there. If he canít get this turned around soon the team may seriously have to look at another option, it is that bad.

A.J. Price: D We saw the return of Bush league Price tonight. At least he didnít turn the ball over and that is about the only thing saving him from an F. Look A.J. Jim is gone, you are no longer required to be a shooting guard. Yes he got 4 assists but Iím telling you guys right now that the one assist he got by passing it to George in the corner for a three from that blocked shot was a last second bail out by A.J. He was going up for a shot but at the last second decided he was not able to take the 1 on 3 shot he wanted and got the ball to Paul. What bothers me the most is when he doesnít even look to run any form of offense other than trying to get up the first shot he can. Again I understand it is only his second game so again Iíll give him a break. But right now he is not making any real argument for him to retain any playing time once Hill returns.

Lou Amundson: C I really canít give him any higher or any lower as he only played slightly more than 2 min. Again this was Vogel looking at his lineups and deciding that he needed the offense on the floor and Tyler wasnít going to give it to him so he went mostly with West and Roy. On the other hand I honestly think Frank would have been just as well playing Lou and benching Tyler but that is just me.

Ok, there is no way I am going to end this post on such a downward note.

I want to ask everybody a question instead.

Where does the current starting five of the Pacers rank in terms of starting fives for the Pacers in the NBA?

The Pacers train keeps on rolling and the Mavericks were tonightís victim standing on the tracks. Here is to hoping we can help expedite Dwightís exit from Orlando with a butt stomping on NBA TV.

http://www.columbiariverimages.com/Images/SPS700_steam_engine_2005.jpg

immortality
02-04-2012, 03:24 AM
Who spam refreshes PD just to read Odd-Thoughts? Don't be ashamed ;p.

Pacers4Life
02-04-2012, 03:32 AM
Guilty. Ain't no shame in it.

CableKC
02-04-2012, 03:32 AM
Thanks Peck....it's 3am in Indy and Peck has just completed the tome that is the nightly "Odd thoughts"....I don't have to tell you that this is devotion and dedication for the love of the Team.

I haven't read it yet and I already know that it's going to be an epic read.

beast23
02-04-2012, 03:42 AM
Good post.

Comparing starting fives. I would say that this starting five is as well balanced offensively as any we have had in a long, long time. We start 5 players that could each score 30 points on any given night. This unit plays more unselfishly than any unit that we have ever had. They seem to understand each other's strengths and certainly appreciate the concept of playing to the "hot hand" better than other teams that we have had.

It's great to see George get a glimpse of what he can be. I think he had one layup, only because he was a bit winded to get the lift needed to provide the dunk as he went around Dirk on the break. He had another layup where he was grabbed on the break-away and followed it with a make at the line for a three-point play. I believe all his other made shots were either 3-pointers or dunks

All I have to say is if this is what is going to become his game, then Bird better be prepared with the quan. Because he is going to need plenty of it to keep Hibbert this summer and then George in a couple of years.

This team is quickly becoming one of my favorite Pacer teams of all-time, and as you know, I have see them all. I would have to say that I would personally have to take exception to anyone calling themselves a Pacer fan who is not able to love this team.

Even if they don't always accomplish it, they attempt to play the game the way I like to see it played. Hard defense, decent fundamentals and sharing the ball. What more could this old Hoosier want?

Asher99
02-04-2012, 03:46 AM
Tyler Hansbrough: F I know that might be harsh but this funk has gone on for to long now. He is hesitant on offense, getís lost on defense and generally is about useless on the floor. One point and two rebounds in almost 20 min. on the floor? I honestly thought Lamar Odom was going to have a breakout game himself tonight but thank God he stunk as well because at first I thought he was just going to torch Tyler. Look I have no idea what is going on here. I mean this is a guy who the first two weeks of the season was as important to our club as any player on the roster but for the better part of three weeks now he has been beyond useless with a good moment or two sprinkled in here or there. If he canít get this turned around soon the team may seriously have to look at another option, it is that bad.


Its not a funk, he's doing what he's told. For a guy who's been called out for having tunnel vision there is no way he's taking 1 shot in 20 min on his own accord.

Since the fix the offense practice here are his before and after numbers.
11.67 PPG to 5.8
9.67 FGA to 5.4
5 FTA to 2.5

When a guys main positive is scoring in bunches and being super aggressive as soon as he gets the ball it doesn't take an expert to know you're going to take him out of the flow of the game by reversing everything he's known and limiting his looks by making him look pass first. As smart as Frank is I don't understand his thinking here, I could see it if he was the starter but having Tyler passing up open looks on the bench is poor coaching especially with no Hill.

beast23
02-04-2012, 03:55 AM
Its not a funk, he's doing what he's told. For a guy who's been called out for having tunnel vision there is no way he's taking 1 shot in 20 min on his own accord.

Since the fix the offense practice here are his before and after numbers.
11.67 PPG to 5.8
9.67 FGA to 5.4
5 FTA to 2.5

When a guys main positive is scoring in bunches and being super aggressive as soon as he gets the ball it doesn't take an expert to know you're going to take him out of the flow of the game by reversing everything he's known and limiting his looks by making him look pass first. As smart as Frank is I don't understand his thinking here, I could see it if he was the starter but having Tyler passing up open looks on the bench is poor coaching especially with no Hill.

I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion. I believe that he is being more unselfish with the ball by design. I'll give you that.

But I believe that although it hurts the second unit when we have mostly second unit players on the floor together, it serves a higher purpose. It also makes him a player that fits in better when on the floor with players mostly from the starting unit.

The starting unit is an equal opportunity bunch. We can't find ourselves at some point with an injured DWest and a selfish Tyler inserted into the starting unit. It just wouldn't work.

So, I do believe part of Tyler's funk is being able to recognize his immediate opportunities versus learning to share the ball. Tyler is passing the ball better. What he is no longer doing is simply receiving the ball and immediately becoming the bull in the china shop. And I believe this is by design. It will take him some additional time to get their, but I believe the end result will be a better rounded player.

AesopRockOn
02-04-2012, 04:03 AM
Dahntay had been playing out of position the entire season at the backup three. He's a two who can also guard the CP3s, Roses and DWills of the world. Our defense on opposing ones and twos with PG, Hill and DJ is quite formidable, wink wink...Bulls in round two...wink wink...getting ahead of myself...

I don't know what we can do with this confidence and "respect" other than keep trying to play hard, right and to continue to win and get deeper into the postseason. Our players cannot afford to slouch, but I think we all should take a step back and realize that it's been a long time since this franchise has been in such a remarkably positive position. Let's just bask in it for a minute. Then beat the **** out of the Magic tomorrow!

Peck
02-04-2012, 04:05 AM
Its not a funk, he's doing what he's told. For a guy who's been called out for having tunnel vision there is no way he's taking 1 shot in 20 min on his own accord.

Since the fix the offense practice here are his before and after numbers.
11.67 PPG to 5.8
9.67 FGA to 5.4
5 FTA to 2.5

When a guys main positive is scoring in bunches and being super aggressive as soon as he gets the ball it doesn't take an expert to know you're going to take him out of the flow of the game by reversing everything he's known and limiting his looks by making him look pass first. As smart as Frank is I don't understand his thinking here, I could see it if he was the starter but having Tyler passing up open looks on the bench is poor coaching especially with no Hill.

What you say may be true, but it has nothing to do with his defense.

Tonight he got so lost on a pick and roll that he honestly just stood there trying to find his man who was long gone.

I also think something happened when he got hit in the head (or at least I'm always trying to give him that benefit of the doubt anyway.

But as others have said, he needed to learn to pass and it may affect his game on the offensive end. But it should not do a thing to his rebounding or defense.

ilive4sports
02-04-2012, 04:21 AM
Its not a funk, he's doing what he's told. For a guy who's been called out for having tunnel vision there is no way he's taking 1 shot in 20 min on his own accord.

Since the fix the offense practice here are his before and after numbers.
11.67 PPG to 5.8
9.67 FGA to 5.4
5 FTA to 2.5

When a guys main positive is scoring in bunches and being super aggressive as soon as he gets the ball it doesn't take an expert to know you're going to take him out of the flow of the game by reversing everything he's known and limiting his looks by making him look pass first. As smart as Frank is I don't understand his thinking here, I could see it if he was the starter but having Tyler passing up open looks on the bench is poor coaching especially with no Hill.

Or he has no confidence in his shot. Did you see some of his misses the other night? They were absolutely terrible. He hasn't been shooting well, really at all this season. His jumper is off. His confidence has clearly been shaken. Do I think the coaches have encouraged him to pass more? Absolutely. Everyone on our team really needs to pass more. But I think Tyler not being able to hit the broadside of a barn right now has more to do with him passing up shots than anything the coaches have said.

He was also getting more minutes earlier in the season, as West wasn't fully conditioned. But West looks more and more comfortable out there, so there are less shots for Tyler to take.

Your acting like his 1 shot night is a regular thing. He has taken at least 5 shots in every game this year until tonight. The answer for Tyler isn't more shots, its hitting the ones he takes. He has to return to attacking the basket, drawing fouls. Thats really where he does his damage. He hasn't been aggressive much recently and that doesn't come down to the coaches, it comes down to Tyler.

gummy
02-04-2012, 04:28 AM
What you say may be true, but it has nothing to do with his defense.

Tonight he got so lost on a pick and roll that he honestly just stood there trying to find his man who was long gone.

I also think something happened when he got hit in the head (or at least I'm always trying to give him that benefit of the doubt anyway.

But as others have said, he needed to learn to pass and it may affect his game on the offensive end. But it should not do a thing to his rebounding or defense.

Exactly. He's also been yapping at refs more - he just doesn't seem to be playing with Tyler focused intensity. I am frankly tired of hearing that this is all about coaching. Yes, his taking less shots probably is related to coaching direction. And you know what? That's not necessarily a bad thing. He did have tunnel vision on offense, and it did hurt the team at times. He doesn't shoot a good enough percentage to be shooting every time he gets the ball.

I also think teams have adjusted to him. Tyler still doesn't stay planted long enough to set an effective screen and teams know that now and play the pick and roll/pop tight accordingly. He needs to add to his offensive repertoire because all he has is a mid range jumper. That ugly hook in the lane is just a prayer that is sometimes answered. I hope over time Tyler can learn from DWest, because that man mixes up his offensive looks, clearly understands spacing, and can set good screens. I think he's an ideal mentor for Tyler.

Going back to the original point, even if I accept that bad coaching is 100% responsible for Tyler's offensive woes there is the fact that his defense and rebounding have also declined. I don't know if he's having head problems or just in a funk or what...but he's off all-around and I don't think it's due to the coaching. Even the few shots he takes without hesitation have mostly been bad misses. I think his confidence is shaken by that as much as anything else.

I'm a big Hans fan. The kid has talent and as long as his body cooperates he has too much competitive drive for this to be the end. He'll adjust, eventually. And a Tyler Hansbrough who can score and be aware of when to make the pass will be a better Tyler Hansbrough in the long run.

Edit: Super fun game to watch, by the way. I'm so glad I stayed up late to queue up the archive. I've been trying to hold my excitement in check but I think that's over now - our Pacers are for real!

Asher99
02-04-2012, 04:37 AM
What you say may be true, but it has nothing to do with his defense.

Tonight he got so lost on a pick and roll that he honestly just stood there trying to find his man who was long gone.

I also think something happened when he got hit in the head (or at least I'm always trying to give him that benefit of the doubt anyway.

But as others have said, he needed to learn to pass and it may affect his game on the offensive end. But it should not do a thing to his rebounding or defense.

He's 100% fine he's just being asked to be somethings he's not.

When you aren't getting included in the game on the end you live to play its hard to get involved on the defensive end. Cut down Danny or West's touches by nearly half for 10 games and I guarantee you will see the same from them.

The bench has sucked since the changing the offense practice and its clear as day how bad its screwed Tyler's game as his PER has gone for in the 16's to 12.84 despite shooting it at the same clip. Eventually we are going to need the bench to come up big and Frank has it a mess right now with Tyler wanting to pass and Price jacking up more shots than Tyler and Hill has been getting since the offensive change.

If we're wanting a passing big we can get one cheap from the Lakers doghouse cheap but if we are looking for a 6th man to get us 12-16 a night with Hill down then we should take off the handcuffs and unleash the guy Frank said nobody wants to play against. Like I said if he was going to be asked to start and play 36 a night he should no doubt be passing more since the others are better players but on the bench with 20 min to work he needs to be balls out with no restrictions pounding on the other team.

Peck
02-04-2012, 04:46 AM
He's 100% fine he's just being asked to be somethings he's not.

When you aren't getting included in the game on the end you live to play its hard to get involved on the defensive end. Cut down Danny or West's touches by nearly half for 10 games and I guarantee you will see the same from them.

The bench has sucked since the changing the offense practice and its clear as day how bad its screwed Tyler's game as his PER has gone for in the 16's to 12.84 despite shooting it at the same clip. Eventually we are going to need the bench to come up big and Frank has it a mess right now with Tyler wanting to pass and Price jacking up more shots than Tyler and Hill has been getting since the offensive change.

If we're wanting a passing big we can get one cheap from the Lakers doghouse cheap but if we are looking for a 6th man to get us 12-16 a night with Hill down then we should take off the handcuffs and unleash the guy Frank said nobody wants to play against. Like I said if he was going to be asked to start and play 36 a night he should no doubt be passing more since the others are better players but on the bench with 20 min to work he needs to be balls out with no restrictions pounding on the other team.

Really?

Since he isn't getting to play on the side he loves so much he is justified in not playing defense?

BTW I disagree with your premise on both counts here. I disagree that this is OK first and formost but more importantly I don't believe for a second that Tyler is doing this either.

I think Tyler is trying, it's just not working.

It could be the change in offensive scheme, I'm not denying that. But I still honestly believe something else is going on as well. You believe the change occured when they practiced prior to going out west and I think it started when he got hit in the head.

Call me paranoid but I fear his concussions.

gummy
02-04-2012, 04:54 AM
When you aren't getting included in the game on the end you live to play its hard to get involved on the defensive end. Cut down Danny or West's touches by nearly half for 10 games and I guarantee you will see the same from them.


Peck addressed most of what I wanted to say about this part already, but I just wanted to add:

As far as I can tell (having watched Tyler for much of his college career as well as his time in blue and gold), Tyler Hansbrough lives to WIN. Sure, he's a decorated scorer, but he has always done the little things that need doing to get a win. As frustrated as I am sure he is with his individual performance, I bet he is pretty happy with the direction the team is heading.

I don't think you've done much in the way of adequately addressing the counterpoints that have been raised, but you are still very much wedded to your one pronged theory. So OK, I'll leave you to it. I've said my piece and have no wish to repeat myself.

And also, WE WON! And I want to ride the happy into sleep. :buddies:

Asher99
02-04-2012, 04:57 AM
Or he has no confidence in his shot. Did you see some of his misses the other night? They were absolutely terrible. He hasn't been shooting well, really at all this season. His jumper is off. His confidence has clearly been shaken. Do I think the coaches have encouraged him to pass more? Absolutely. Everyone on our team really needs to pass more. But I think Tyler not being able to hit the broadside of a barn right now has more to do with him passing up shots than anything the coaches have said.......

That's funny because Hansbrough has never met a shot he didn't like, he could miss 100 in a row and still want to shoot the next 100. He's not ever going to pass up shots by lack of confidence.

11.67 PPG to 5.8
9.67 FGA to 5.4
5 FTA to 2.5

When all your stats are cut in half and you're sporting your lowest per-36 FGA of your career over the last 10 games its all on the coaching wanting him to pass more. Taking away his aggression is going to make the problem worse not make it better that's why I called out the change after I picked up on it early on the trip out West.

He's a lost cause right now and its not going to get better, the next stage if the eff it stage where he starts gunning and that's even worse than this one, so we have 3 options. We can let him play his game, Bench him and play Lou or trade him for someone else. But one thing is for sure playing him as is isn't a good idea at all because he's borderline useless right now.

Asher99
02-04-2012, 05:17 AM
Really?

Since he isn't getting to play on the side he loves so much he is justified in not playing defense?

BTW I disagree with your premise on both counts here. I disagree that this is OK first and formost but more importantly I don't believe for a second that Tyler is doing this either.

I think Tyler is trying, it's just not working.

It could be the change in offensive scheme, I'm not denying that. But I still honestly believe something else is going on as well. You believe the change occured when they practiced prior to going out west and I think it started when he got hit in the head.

Call me paranoid but I fear his concussions.

I never said he was justified, I'm saying that's just how it is. When you feel let out of the offense as an offensive player the little things don't get done as often. Even if unintentional it happens and not just in the NBA as in the NFL a WR may not be blocking as hard or RB may not pick up the blitz.

If if was something wrong he wouldn't have had the good game vs Toronto before the change and after getting hit, that game may have been his best total overall game of the year.

Before the change he had 3 games under 8 shots in 12 games. The came in the 2nd game of the year, the game where he didn't get to play the 4th and the good Toronto game where he got to the line 7 times in 22:38. Since the offensive change he's got to 8 once with half the games topping our with 5 or less attempts and the Orlando game when he got 6 but both his 2nd half shots came off offensive rebounds.

It may be a fluke but everything points to the west coast practice and the 15 attempts and 4 FT he took in those 3 games on it setting all this off IMO.


I don't think you've done much in the way of adequately addressing the counterpoints that have been raised, but you are still very much wedded to your one pronged theory.

People thinking he's hurt is a theory, this below actually happened....

11.67 PPG to 5.8
9.67 FGA to 5.4
5 FTA to 2.5

The most aggressive guy on the team suddenly becoming tentative to shoot is a change in the offense.

Bball
02-04-2012, 05:27 AM
It may be a fluke but everything points to the west coast practice and the 15 attempts and 4 FT he took in those 3 games on it setting all this off IMO,

Didn't a similar funk occur last season after Tyler got a blow to the head? And now he took a hit to the eye and is in a funk....

DemonHunter1105
02-04-2012, 05:43 AM
Good read. I don't know if Tyler deserved an F, but he has been sucking pretty hard and consistently.

Man this team is fun to watch. I almost prefer the way most games have been playing out too. Competitive first half where you are not sure which team is better. Then we come out blazin' in the third and fourth. Unlike early in the season, we seem to be getting much better at maintaining our leads once we got them in the second half.

If I had to pick a surprise player at this point in the season for how good they have been playing it would be DC. I have always liked him but he has been rock solid recently. I did not expect him to become this consistent. Roy acquiring some mental fortitude and Jones playing well have been surprising to me too.

I just love watching this team grow. The best part is we are winning in the process so it is so much sweeter. :D

Asher99
02-04-2012, 05:47 AM
Didn't a similar funk occur last season after Tyler got a blow to the head? And now he took a hit to the eye and is in a funk....

He's never had this low of attempts over this long of a period with legit PT. He's broke 20 min in a game 75 times in his career 5 times he's had 5 or less shots in a game and shot over 10 FT in one of those games and he's been under 5 attempts 2 times in those 5. Since we had that change the offense practice he's been 5 or less 5 times and under five twice with his lowest total coming last night. So he's managed to match his career total in 65 less games without the big FT game.

able
02-04-2012, 06:12 AM
Asher, as many stats as you are willing to produce to blame the coaching staff of Tyler's bad play, it is ultimately the player that has the responsibility (wasn't he over the moon when Frank started and :censored: lost his job?).
Tyler before being under some form of control shot at a low 40% clip, something a PF should never do, if he does he has to stop shooting.

Let's face a few facts because maybe what Seth said for starters about him is becoming reality:

He is a VERY poor defender and in principle can not defend anyone at his own position.
He is a VERY poor helpside defender, he sags of his man and causes a ton of trouble for his teammates by prematurely going to the rim or looking for a rebound position, (which he misses because the shot he anticipates is not coming, instead it is the guy HE was supposed to defend that shoots and he is out of position on all ends)
He sets TERRIBLE blocks, there's no two ways about it, compare West/Foster blocks with Tyler's and you start crying spontaneously.
Due to that a P&P play causes him always to have to rush his shot, so his % goes down.
His size and lack of vertical makes it easy to defend him, also if you crowd him when he gets the ball, he can throw an elbow but his poor passing skills make it he has to try and shoot or get out, the shooting being impossible the endresult is often dramatic.

YES he has a continuous running engine.
YES he's a bull in a china-store.
YES it worked a while

But what real skills does he has to fall back on now that they don't call the fouls he expects?
Why does he expect the calls? he's giving, so he has to take just as well'
Referees no longer bail him out and he rewards them with moaning and *****ing at every opportunity, there are better things he could have picked up of West, lots and it doesn't improve his chances on calls tommorrow either.

In short, the F was justified, more than.



P.S. did you notice that if you pay the league $ 110 thousand you get a lot of calls going your way?

Asher99
02-04-2012, 06:27 AM
Asher, as many stats as you are willing to produce to blame the coaching staff of Tyler's bad play, it is ultimately the player that has the responsibility

You have knocked Tyler since I've been here so I bet you are going to be real objective on the subject. He is doing want Frank want and its as simple as that, if he gives him the rock and tells him get him 14 tomorrow he will go get around 14 but he isn't getting jack without taking shots.

Easy math here Able... Less shots = points and FT, its simple as that! If PG took 1 shot how many would he got tonight? I also never said the F wasn't justified but he would be back to getting that 6th man of the year type love if he was allowed to be what he is.

Banta
02-04-2012, 06:32 AM
IMHO, the Dallas game is of key importance. The team is supremely confident now and I expect to see them play up to their abilities. Of course I'm not saying there won't be any let down nights, but I don't expect to see them wilt out of intimidation.

Also, :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

able
02-04-2012, 06:53 AM
You have knocked Tyler since I've been here so I bet you are going to be real objective on the subject. He is doing want Frank want and its as simple as that, if he gives him the rock and tells him get him 14 tomorrow he will go get around 14 but he isn't getting jack without taking shots.

Easy math here Able... Less shots = points and FT, its simple as that! If PG took 1 shot how many would he got tonight? I also never said the F wasn't justified but he would be back to getting that 6th man of the year type love if he was allowed to be what he is.

I'm as biased as you are, but on opposite ends, but the numbers say I am right, while your numbers try to find a scapegoat.

Only one goat, Tyler himself, same coach he loved 8 months ago.

If you want a chicken/egg discussion about whether it was the reduced touches, or his increased misses/turnovers that made "SOMEONE" (ever considered it was his teammates that say pass the damn rock instead of turning it over?) say start passing, we can have that, but as it is, he will not become a better defender with it and there is no way you can argue he can stay with the team when it comes to defense, he is by far the weakest link out there.

Asher99
02-04-2012, 07:09 AM
You can say you're right as on now because the limited touches has killed his PER, he was over 16 before the change in strategy shooting the same percentage. The second he gets back to getting a steady 8 shots a game everything will go back to its norm.

I know Tyler has flaws that why I been outspoken about this change that takes away his positives, but haters like yourself and Mackey never want to give him any credit at all. Seth has seemed to be able to see his positives and I would be willing to bet Seth see's the mistake in how Tyler is getting used the last 10 games.

The bench was far better when he wasn't passing 30.1 to 22.7 PPG so if his teammates said that to him they should stay out of coaching or management because they aren't very good at assessing strengths and weaknesses.

You and Mr Rose's boy Josh got benched by Mike Brown out in LA so maybe we should move Tyler there for Josh and you could be happy? I know they would do it, so what do think about that one?

McKeyFan
02-04-2012, 07:37 AM
If I had to pick a surprise player at this point in the season for how good they have been playing it would be DC. I have always liked him but he has been rock solid recently. I did not expect him to become this consistent.

I'm an advocate of acquiring a new point guard and sending DC to the second unit.

That said, I agree with you. I'll give credit where it's due. He has played extremely well.

McKeyFan
02-04-2012, 07:42 AM
he would be back to getting that 6th man of the year type love if he was allowed to be what he is.

The problem is that when he "is what he is," he's a guy who shoots a terrible percentage.

Vogel could not allow him to continue to "be what he is." I agree with that decision.

I'm a Tyler fan. Love his tenacity and energy. But he is no longer the best player on the floor, much less the best player in the country. He now has to learn how to play with discipline. Good shot selection, looking for the pass, etc.

If he can't pull it off, it will be too bad. But everything about this character tells me he will recover, learn his new role, and be a great player for us.

Asher99
02-04-2012, 07:50 AM
The problem is that when he "is what he is," he's a guy who shoots a terrible percentage..

Our star player is shooting a terrible percentage and he's shooting more than now than last year with despite more help around him. Plus the more shots Tyler gets on the regular the better he shoots as seen by his 49.9% as a starter.

The key is do you want Tyler to shoot a poor percentage and get the line and cause foul trouble while getting under the other teams skin or do you want Price, Jones, Lou or Lance to shoot just as poor and get nothing added out of it.

McKeyFan
02-04-2012, 07:52 AM
Back to the overall, that was a great game. They just took over in the middle of the second half. It's like the opposite of our former team that would lead through three quarters and fold, seemingly every night.

What is crazy to me is that I still don't think we have played that much up to our potential. Take Paul George. Basically he hit a bunch of threes tonight. I loved it, it was fun to watch. But he really didn't make that many nice moves or go to the rack and draw fouls, the things real superstars do to be consistent high scorers.

The scary thing is that Paul George CAN do all those things, does them regularly here and there, and will eventually get to the point where he is nearly unstoppable.

We are getting better at passing the ball, but have a lot more improvement to do there. Yet we still win games. The second unit has not figured out what their offensive strategy is yet. But we keep winning.

George Hill and Jeff Foster are out. We keep winning.

So, while the Dallas fans may be thinking, "Man, that team is good and whipped our butts," I'm thinking, "we played fairly good tonight, not great."

And that is a very enjoyable thought.

Justin Tyme
02-04-2012, 08:24 AM
Oh heck, lets just trade Tyler for a soft stretch 4.

Brad8888
02-04-2012, 08:39 AM
You and Mr Rose's boy Josh got benched by Mike Brown out in LA so maybe we should move Tyler there for Josh and you could be happy? I know they would do it, so what do think about that one?

I would do that trade, immediately. The Lakers would never do it because Hansbrough both does not match their style of play and they likely have the additional insight from Murphy and McRoberts of what might be causing his poor play of late from their being with him through his troubles previously.

BlueNGold
02-04-2012, 08:49 AM
I have the crow on simmer for some of you. Seth got a nice belly full, so there should be enough to go around.

I don't know what is wrong with Tyler's game, but I've also seen other players on the team including Danny Granger looking pretty bad. Goodness, not long ago some of you were questioning whether Roy Hibbert would be a good backup C. Paul George wasn't playing aggressive and people were comparing him to Trevor Ariza.

holmes
02-04-2012, 08:59 AM
Hey, we spanked the defending champs on their home court and there was no riot so all is good!

Asher99
02-04-2012, 09:04 AM
I would do that trade, immediately. The Lakers would never do it because Hansbrough both does not match their style of play and they likely have the additional insight from Murphy and McRoberts of what might be causing his poor play of late from their being with him through his troubles previously.

Josh is out of their rotation right so he isn't fitting thier style of play either so they would make that deal in a heartbeat just to add an asset to put towards getting a D12 type player. My mind is blown that anyone would say otherwise honestly.

Also They don't need to have Josh or Troy to know whats wrong with Tyler anyone who watches should see it clear as day. He's lost his aggressiveness by being programed to look pass, Its fixed as simple as saying here you go big boy here's the rock go be Tyler Hansbrough and get us 14 and 6 and just pass when you don't feel a shot.

Those extra passes aren't helping the bench as its has seen around a 8 PPG dip in its averages since when we changed the offense and the rest of the bench players brick just as much as they did before.

Sparhawk
02-04-2012, 09:09 AM
This was an important game. You could also tell that Vogel didn't trust the bench tonight. Which is a real shame cause our starters are more than likely going to be very tired for Orlando.

Bench better show up tonight. Lance, please get your head on straight and have a breakout game. Be aggressive man!

Hans has to be hiding some injury...probably a head injury. What in the world is going on with him. His D even sucks and it looks like he's trying to get into fights with players rather than play basketball. Just so weird and sad to watch him play.

able
02-04-2012, 09:43 AM
You can say you're right as on now because the limited touches has killed his PER, he was over 16 before the change in strategy shooting the same percentage. The second he gets back to getting a steady 8 shots a game everything will go back to its norm.

I know Tyler has flaws that why I been outspoken about this change that takes away his positives, but haters like yourself and Mackey never want to give him any credit at all. Seth has seemed to be able to see his positives and I would be willing to bet Seth see's the mistake in how Tyler is getting used the last 10 games.

The bench was far better when he wasn't passing 30.1 to 22.7 PPG so if his teammates said that to him they should stay out of coaching or management because they aren't very good at assessing strengths and weaknesses.

You and Mr Rose's boy Josh got benched by Mike Brown out in LA so maybe we should move Tyler there for Josh and you could be happy? I know they would do it, so what do think about that one?

What i say about that ? you just lost every right you had to argue when you started comparing me to other people and called me a "hater"

Asher99
02-04-2012, 09:46 AM
What i say about that ? you just lost every right you had to argue when you started comparing me to other people and called me a "hater"

You are far from a Tyler fan as every post I've seen from you on him has been very negative.

able
02-04-2012, 09:52 AM
You are far from a Tyler fan as every post I've seen from you on him has been very negative.


You couldn't be more right then with that post, I'm Indiana Pacers Fan, and I can "like" a player, miss him a minute, and support the next one in the shirt that bears that Large P.


You have quite some archive to cover if you want to refer to my posts in the past, seeing as you only joined a few days ago.

I suggest you take my advice and swallow the opinion some have of Tyler, leave it to your "MAN" to change the impression, I will always admit if i was wrong, so far however I get to say "I told you so"

Larry Staverman
02-04-2012, 09:55 AM
Also if you are a fan of coaching then this matchup was for you.


I was amazed by the back and forth between the coaches. We would make a run and then Carlyle would call a timeout and make adjustments then they would make a run and then Vogel would call a timeout and make adjustments and we would make another runÖÖand back and forth and back and forth.

We may have been watching the two best X and Oís coaches in the league last night.

It was almost like a replay of the famous 1972 cold war chess match between Booby Fischer and Boris Spassky in Reykavik, Iceland.

Asher99
02-04-2012, 10:02 AM
You have quite some archive to cover if you want to refer to my posts in the past, seeing as you only joined a few days ago.


I signed exactly a month ago and read here a few weeks prior to that and every post I've seen from you on him has extremely negative. I don't know its been that way prior to then but with the way knocked him in those posts I have a hard time buying its a newly formed opinion.

Doug
02-04-2012, 10:09 AM
Half of Tyler's offensive problems come down to his initial position when we start a set. I'm not sure why, but he often starts in a "weird" area. Often it's too far from the basket for him, but it's kind of hard to explain. "Out of system" (volleyball term) is the best phrase that I can come up with right now. Basically, his initial positioning is not letting him get into the flow of the offense. I don't know why - maybe just lack of practice or team "growing pains"?

Hoop
02-04-2012, 10:41 AM
I get real tired of Josh's name being brought up in every Hans discussion. They have nothing to do with each other, completely different skill sets, both bring good and bad things to the table.

It's not required to hate one if you like the other, it's just silly. I wish we still had both.

BlueNGold
02-04-2012, 11:01 AM
I think some of you recall Tyler getting blocked nearly every time, correct? You saw him adjust...at least I hope you all caught that...but many didn't think he could adjust. Others have forgotten that he did that. Now, the funeral procession on his game has started anew. I understand he's unorthodox, but I still contend his game translates. He just needs to learn how to play within the team concept Vogel has put in place.

I will admit he is slow to adjust, but without question I know he will work hard and get the help necessary to make the adjustments.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with his ability to defend mano-mano. He's not a great help guy, but neither is West. Neither block shots.

I guess we'll see but I suspect in another month or two, he will come alive again and I will be serving up the crow. Hope y'all are hungry.

BTW, I know his game is odd and hard to believe that it could be effective. But it is what it is. He is going to turn this around IMO...

Hicks
02-04-2012, 11:24 AM
Our star player is shooting a terrible percentage and he's shooting more than now than last year with despite more help around him. Plus the more shots Tyler gets on the regular the better he shoots as seen by his 49.9% as a starter.

The key is do you want Tyler to shoot a poor percentage and get the line and cause foul trouble while getting under the other teams skin or do you want Price, Jones, Lou or Lance to shoot just as poor and get nothing added out of it.

You're just going to have to wait a while. If Tyler can learn from this situation and build on what the staff and team is trying to do, eventually he'll play more like David West plays: Picking his moments so that the ball keeps moving and when it IS time to go to work, he'll recognize that too, and then his offense benefits because the majority of his attempts will be the highest percentage possible because he won't force it nearly as much.

Actually West's game last night is a great template for how Tyler can eventually play if he learns from this. Pick his spots, take what is given, work the ball around, and I can easily envision him knocking down pick/pop jumpers from mid range and blowing by his man on face ups from mid range for layups, that dinky hook shot/flick of his, dunks, and hopefully some fouls again (he really is getting screwed there lately; those are real fouls they are not calling).

I think the painful transition we're watching right now can very much be worth it once we reach the other end of the tunnel.

danman
02-04-2012, 11:24 AM
Mostly want to give a shout out to DC. His last few games have been among his best as a Pacer. We aren't playing like strangers anymore. Shifting defenses aren't throwing us off.

Dunno on Tyler. I can say this, he has to adjust and find his spots. Dallas collapsed down against us, so his and Roy's numbers aren't surprising. I'll say this, though -- David and Paul made them pay for that strategy in blood.

I don't think Tyler has a future right now scoring in the paint. He has to have room, and he has to pin his man on his left shoulder. That isn't enough. He would be well advised to watch how West works. His base should be the pick and fade, with leverage and up fakes closer in. That's how it's done with his toolset. West always moves to a spot to make himself an option, and he keeps his head when challenged.

EDIT. Posted same time as Hicks. Lol. Change to "what Hicks said"

Hicks
02-04-2012, 11:34 AM
I just want to comment on how GREAT our starting unit has played these last two games. It's like something clicked and they are playing much better basketball as a team. It's been a joy to watch.

This is why I've never preferred facilitators to scorers: I believe it can be like this where the scorers learn to share and trust on their own, leading to something very powerful. They may not pass as well as the facilitators, but their individual games put such pressure on the D that they don't really need anything spectacular, they just need to make the basic reads and passes to work the ball around and/or find the right guy in a place where he can go to work. Love it.

15th parallel
02-04-2012, 11:42 AM
I just want to comment on how GREAT our starting unit has played these last two games. It's like something clicked and they are playing much better basketball as a team. It's been a joy to watch.

This is why I've never preferred facilitators to scorers: I believe it can be like this where the scorers learn to share and trust on their own, leading to something very powerful. They may not pass as well as the facilitators, but their individual games put such pressure on the D that they don't really need anything spectacular, they just need to make the basic reads and passes to work the ball around and/or find the right guy in a place where he can go to work. Love it.

This is why teams like the 90's Bulls, 2000's Spurs and Lakers are champions despite not having great facilitators. If we look at the lineups of those teams that won the titles for their teams, none have great facilitators, but rather they have players that know their roles, have the specific strengths on offense, and have great trust in their teammates' capabilities to score. Their players are more read-and-react types that knows where to position and gets the ball to the best option by great ball movement by everybody on the team.

pizza guy
02-04-2012, 11:53 AM
In response to Peck's question about this Pacers roster comparing to other Pacers rosters, I would say they still have a lot of work to do in the playoffs before we can ever compare apples-to-apples. BUT, watching the game last night, my mom said "this team is a lot different than it was when Carlisle was here, isn't it?" And I thought about that and decided it's actually not. Winning with defense, very good post-players (Roy/West, JO/Miller), smart coaching, sharing the ball (more now than before, but between JO, Ron, SJax, and Reggie, they did share some). The only difference is we don't have Reggie anymore...then Paul George hits 7 threes and goes for 30 points!

This team is rising fast and with some good showings in the playoffs in the next couple years, they're going to be right there with some of the old Pacers teams we all loved.

binarysolo
02-04-2012, 12:08 PM
What is crazy to me is that I still don't think we have played that much up to our potential. Take Paul George. Basically he hit a bunch of threes tonight. I loved it, it was fun to watch. But he really didn't make that many nice moves or go to the rack and draw fouls, the things real superstars do to be consistent high scorers.

Yes, I agree with this sentiment entirely. Almost all of his points came from 3s and breakaways. I think it's a little premature to say that PG has "broken out." There will be nights when defenders do not let him get any open looks at 3, and I'm not confident at this point he will be able to generate offense. His shooting form this year is a huge step in his overall development, but there is still much work to be done for him to be a consistent offensive player.

Infinite MAN_force
02-04-2012, 12:10 PM
I'm an advocate of acquiring a new point guard and sending DC to the second unit.

That said, I agree with you. I'll give credit where it's due. He has played extremely well.

I'm starting to wonder if instead of a trade, we make a legit run at Steve Nash in free agency this off season. The Pacers have the 4th best record in the entire NBA right now. If you are making a list of "contender teams", the Pacers are knocking on the door.

I'm thinking a call from a guy like Larry Bird gets Nash's attention, just like with West. We can also pay him more than many other contending teams who are up against the luxury tax. Sign him to a two year deal at slightly above MLE money, more than the capped out teams can pay.

Why is this such a great idea? Darren Collison. DC would arguably be the best backup PG in the NBA. Nash is old so its likely they split time, keeping DC in a big enough role to keep him happy. You also have a very capable player to step in if injuries or father time catch up with Nash.

I like it much better than trying to trade DC for Nash.

IndyHoya
02-04-2012, 12:17 PM
In Tyler's defense, Vince Carter played out of his butt against us last night. He always seems to play out of his butt against us. Watching him school Tyler was kind of painful sometimes. But he schooled Paul George a couple of times too.

Offensively, Tyler's not gonna do particularly well when people are zoning us, as Dallas did a lot last night. I might be wrong on this, but Tyler is a misfit when we're being zoned because he is such a poor passer. Beating a zone requires penetration and a kick. With Tyler, there's never a good kick out for an open jumper. It's more of a pass inside with Tyler invariably then doing his bull it inside thing. He also has his limitations as a dribbler, so with Tyler you don't get the DW-like penetration followed by a baby hook at the rim.

The above said, for all his limitations, we've all seen what Tyler's capable of. He's hard to handle underneath one-on-one and when his jumper's dropping (as it was in the past) he's a dangerous offensive player.

I think he's in a funk. When open jumpers don't fall, its more a funk thing than other teams adjusting to, and negating him. I think he'll pull out of it.

Kid Minneapolis
02-04-2012, 12:18 PM
It was a very impressive game, but I do have to keep reminding myself that Kidd was out, they don't have Chandler anymore, and Dirk was not 100%. It wasn't the same Mav's team.

We still did what we needed to do though.

Kid Minneapolis
02-04-2012, 12:23 PM
Couple notes about this season:

1) At the beginning of the season, our bench was supposed to be a strength... but it seems the exact opposite has occurred. Our starting unit has become beastly, and our bench has been lagging behind. However, the overall depth of this team is a strength, and is a huge reason we're wearing teams out.

2) Vogel. There's something I want to point out that is extremely awesome to me. On top of his confidence-instilling attitude and basic tough basketball mindset... we're a 3rd quarter team. What does that mean? He's making awesome halftime adjustments. This is just huge... this is a major quality to have as a head coach. It's like... the icing on the cake for this guy. I think he's going to become a major big-time coach in this league. I've seen all I need to see.

Pacergeek
02-04-2012, 12:26 PM
Tyler isn't getting any help from the officials. He drives to the hoop, gets hacked, and no whistle is blown. He doesn't get "superstar" calls

IndyHoya
02-04-2012, 12:28 PM
It was a very impressive game, but I do have to keep reminding myself that Kidd was out, they don't have Chandler anymore, and Dirk was not 100%. It wasn't the same Mav's team.

We still did what we needed to do though.

Nowitzky was really laboring, particularly in the 2nd half. He couldn't handle PG defensively at all. His bad knee was part of that, but even with a good wheel on Dirk I don't think he could contain PG. Dallas didn't really have anyone that could match him from the standpoint of athleticism. Their consistent doubling of Roy made for a lot of open jumpers for us last night too. That part of Carlisle's defensive strategy didn't work very well for Dallas

imawhat
02-04-2012, 12:36 PM
The problem is that when he "is what he is," he's a guy who shoots a terrible percentage.

Vogel could not allow him to continue to "be what he is." I agree with that decision.

I'm a Tyler fan. Love his tenacity and energy. But he is no longer the best player on the floor, much less the best player in the country. He now has to learn how to play with discipline. Good shot selection, looking for the pass, etc.

If he can't pull it off, it will be too bad. But everything about this character tells me he will recover, learn his new role, and be a great player for us.

I'm of the philosophy that he can be what he is because right now he's a role player. If he's a hammer, you can use him to hit nails because that's what he's good at.

No need to reinvent the wheel here. That was one of my biggest complaints about JOB.

Having said that, I'm giving Frank the benefit of the doubt because we're still winning and it appears to be a good time for Lance and Tyler's development. And this is clearly a strategic decision because we moved Tyler to the weakside on offense. There's no way Frank thinks Lou is more useful than Tyler in pick n pops, right?

The rebounding defensive woes last night was an anomaly but it has me concerned. Tyler's not the uninvolved type but it seemed like he took his foot off the gas a bit. It's possible that getting knocked in the head has affected him and this could be a recurring problem in his career but I don't know. This guy is a champion though so I'm confident that he'll come out of his funk soon. And in the process, this weakside stuff may help develop his game a little.

JEM
02-04-2012, 12:45 PM
Tylers confidence may be shaken but I dont think its because he is missing good looks but rather that he doesnt seem to be involved offensively anymore even when the entire bench is in the game. Before he was the guy with the bench on the floor and while he hasnt shot well all season he still was able to get 6 FTs attempts a game and make a positive impact.

Now he either never touches the ball or gets it 20 feet out .. never in a position to do anything other than pass. I have always believed that Tyler should get 10-12 shots a game and I still think that.

His defense is fine. The guards need to do a better job of recovering from screens for sure though. Too often they leave Hansbrough and West out to dry.

If David West is a real leader then he needs to take Hansbrough to the side and personally help him out and not leave him alone in his current mire.

gummy
02-04-2012, 12:45 PM
I think some of you recall Tyler getting blocked nearly every time, correct? You saw him adjust...at least I hope you all caught that...but many didn't think he could adjust. Others have forgotten that he did that. Now, the funeral procession on his game has started anew. I understand he's unorthodox, but I still contend his game translates. He just needs to learn how to play within the team concept Vogel has put in place.

I will admit he is slow to adjust, but without question I know he will work hard and get the help necessary to make the adjustments.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with his ability to defend mano-mano. He's not a great help guy, but neither is West. Neither block shots.

I guess we'll see but I suspect in another month or two, he will come alive again and I will be serving up the crow. Hope y'all are hungry.

BTW, I know his game is odd and hard to believe that it could be effective. But it is what it is. He is going to turn this around IMO...

As far as I can tell (in this thread at least) the majority of us are not saying Tyler can't or won't adjust. I've been highly critical lately, including earlier in this thread, but I very clearly stated I think this is a growing period and he'll make the adjustments eventually because he's a winner. Yes, as usual we have one two people on the "Tyler totally sucks always" side and one or two on the "Tyler is totally awesome, so if he's bad it's someone else's fault," wagon. I understand the squeakiest wheel gets the grease, but it bugs me when people start talking as if a relatively small number of people are more numerous than they are. Or worse yet, conflating everyone who criticizes a particular player and then proceeding as if they are all saying whatever the most extreme version of the argument is. I think those kinds of distortions often changes the tone of these discussions, and usually not for the better. I also suspect most people don't do it on purpose, so I am hoping it's useful to throw some light on this dynamic.

Ironically, it appears to me that in the way he has gone about defending him, Asher actually implies that Tyler can't adjust, insisting we have to let him "play his game," because the process of learning a more team oriented game will make him useless forever. I don't believe that and I don't think most people who have been critical of Tyler believe that. So I think you may be cooking up way more crow than is suitable to serve in the end. ;)

Peck
02-04-2012, 01:17 PM
What grade can I change Tyler to so that we can stop making this the Tyler Hansbrough thread and rejoice in the fact that we beat the defending champions?

I want to really focus on the fact that what was said above.

We are a third quarter team. That is coaching.

That means we are going into the locker room, drawing up plays, countering what the other team is doing and often anticipating what we think they will do.

Is it Brian Shaw? Is it Dan Burke? Is it Jim Boylen? Is it Frank Vogel?

The answer is yes.

Ultimately Frank gets the credit because it is his final decision but Frank has shown a great ability to learn from people so I believe he is leaning on all of his ast. coach's and drawing from their experiances. BTW this is called leadership, but I digress.

Obviously I have failed to set the proper tone for this thread so to recitfy this I am going to post more dancing fruit, maybe some of you can set down your pitchforks and torches and join me.

:dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance:: dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::d ance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::da nce::dance::pepper::pepper::pepper::carrot::pineap ple:mango::cucumber::rock::dorange::apple::bdance: :bdance::bdance::bdance::bdance::bdance::bdance::b groovy::bgroovy::bgroovy::bgroovy::bgroovy::bgroov y::bgroovy::bgroovy::bgroovy::bgroovy::bgroovy::bg roovy::bgroovy::bgroovy:

able
02-04-2012, 01:23 PM
Without the fruitsalad, what amazed me most is that Rick made it so hard for us to use Roy properly and the way we countered with going with West, same for Granger, covered like a glove, smothered by double teams both of them were and PG got the chance to break out almost unbothered.

While we may not (yet) have a superstar we have a team that (starters at least) offer you a variety of poisons to die by, prevent one or two and end up dying from the rest.

And that was what was most impressive on our victory over the champs.

Peck
02-04-2012, 01:37 PM
Without the fruitsalad, what amazed me most is that Rick made it so hard for us to use Roy properly and the way we countered with going with West, same for Granger, covered like a glove, smothered by double teams both of them were and PG got the chance to break out almost unbothered.

While we may not (yet) have a superstar we have a team that (starters at least) offer you a variety of poisons to die by, prevent one or two and end up dying from the rest.

And that was what was most impressive on our victory over the champs.

Yea I was trying to make this point in my last Odd Thoughts and I can't remember the posters name who called me out for poor writing (he was right btw) but this was what I was trying to say.

You can't really shut down one place on the floor on our team because we have the weapons to open up other places on the floor.

The Hydra is a great example of this.

Come on Able, you know you want to have some dancing fruit.:D Just one....:dance:

vnzla81
02-04-2012, 01:43 PM
What grade can I change Tyler to so that we can stop making this the Tyler Hansbrough thread

Maybe if you use on Tyler the same glasses that you use to grade Danny we wouldn't have a thread like this ...............:-p

Peck
02-04-2012, 01:57 PM
Maybe if you use on Tyler the same glasses that you use to grade Danny we wouldn't have a thread like this ...............:-p


Touchť :tongue:

xIndyFan
02-04-2012, 02:03 PM
Couple notes about this season:

1) At the beginning of the season, our bench was supposed to be a strength... but it seems the exact opposite has occurred. Our starting unit has become beastly, and our bench has been lagging behind. However, the overall depth of this team is a strength, and is a huge reason we're wearing teams out.

2) Vogel. There's something I want to point out that is extremely awesome to me. On top of his confidence-instilling attitude and basic tough basketball mindset... we're a 3rd quarter team. What does that mean? He's making awesome halftime adjustments. This is just huge... this is a major quality to have as a head coach. It's like... the icing on the cake for this guy. I think he's going to become a major big-time coach in this league. I've seen all I need to see.

time will tell on vogel. he looks like a guy that has the x's and o's down. the players on the team now love him. he has to produce game in and game out for a couple hundred games to show he is the guy or not.

i do have an answer about the bench. why the starter have played much better. and why the bench has gone from a strength to so/so. it is not much of an observation, but here it is. the starters are much better players. the starters are above average to very good NBA guys. the bench guys are just guys. lance may become a good player some day, but right now he is just a guy. AJ is ok, but no more than that. the league has adjusted to tyler, until he adjusts to the adjustment, he is an undersized PF who trys hard. lou is an undersized big who tries hard. dahntay is the best player on the bench right now, but he is a defensive SG playing out of position. when/if jeff foster and george hill recover, the bench will recover. jeff and george are the guys on the bench that currently have actual NBA skills and knowledge. the short answer is the bench needs an upgrade of NBA ready talent.

there is a silver lining of sorts here. come the playoffs, the bench will matter less. the starters can play enough minutes to make the bench weaknesses less important.

McKeyFan
02-04-2012, 03:08 PM
Having said that, I'm giving Frank the benefit of the doubt because we're still winning and it appears to be a good time for Lance and Tyler's development. And this is clearly a strategic decision because we moved Tyler to the weakside on offense. There's no way Frank thinks Lou is more useful than Tyler in pick n pops, right?


Care to explain more? I don't really understand it. Why would Tyler be practicing weak side at all? Are there plans to put him in the first unit?

CableKC
02-04-2012, 03:17 PM
Notice how PG and Granger are playing more with the 2nd Unit as the proverbial SF in the lineup?

I noticed this as of late and hope that it is an adjustment that will remain intact even after GH returns. This allows ( as someone suggested ) Inferno to play the 2 spot and allows for more mismatches on the defensive end where PG or Inferno are defending the opposing PG.

CableKC
02-04-2012, 03:35 PM
Couple notes about this season:

1) At the beginning of the season, our bench was supposed to be a strength... but it seems the exact opposite has occurred. Our starting unit has become beastly, and our bench has been lagging behind. However, the overall depth of this team is a strength, and is a huge reason we're wearing teams out.

2) Vogel. There's something I want to point out that is extremely awesome to me. On top of his confidence-instilling attitude and basic tough basketball mindset... we're a 3rd quarter team. What does that mean? He's making awesome halftime adjustments. This is just huge... this is a major quality to have as a head coach. It's like... the icing on the cake for this guy. I think he's going to become a major big-time coach in this league. I've seen all I need to see.
I remember a few years back when we'd always play like crap in the 3rd QTR and lose MANY games cuz we came out flat and could score a bucket. Knowing that we have a Coach that can make those adjustments to keep us in the game is great.

Bball
02-04-2012, 04:26 PM
Are we really making 3rd quarter adjustments to the point of changing the game or are we playing a brand of basketball that is allowing us to stay with the other team and eventually wear them down playing against our offense (that is no longer about tossing up the first 3 we get) ("make 'em play defense") as well as having to play their offense against our physical defense that the team is taking pride in?

I'd venture to say it's both... but a lot of it is teams wearing down mentally and physically because the Pacers refuse to fold. Unlike under JOB, when opposing teams look to quit playing cat and mouse and turn it on, the Pacers smile and say "bring it on"....

BlueNGold
02-04-2012, 07:43 PM
Ironically, it appears to me that in the way he has gone about defending him, Asher actually implies that Tyler can't adjust, insisting we have to let him "play his game," because the process of learning a more team oriented game will make him useless forever. I don't believe that and I don't think most people who have been critical of Tyler believe that. So I think you may be cooking up way more crow than is suitable to serve in the end. ;)

8 points in 8 minutes...

IDK how many customers I have to serve, but who wants fries with that?

Mackey_Rose
02-07-2012, 04:33 PM
You can say you're right as on now because the limited touches has killed his PER, he was over 16 before the change in strategy shooting the same percentage. The second he gets back to getting a steady 8 shots a game everything will go back to its norm.

I know Tyler has flaws that why I been outspoken about this change that takes away his positives, but haters like yourself and Mackey never want to give him any credit at all. Seth has seemed to be able to see his positives and I would be willing to bet Seth see's the mistake in how Tyler is getting used the last 10 games.

The bench was far better when he wasn't passing 30.1 to 22.7 PPG so if his teammates said that to him they should stay out of coaching or management because they aren't very good at assessing strengths and weaknesses.

You and Mr Rose's boy Josh got benched by Mike Brown out in LA so maybe we should move Tyler there for Josh and you could be happy? I know they would do it, so what do think about that one?

I'm really not sure why I got called out in this thread, and I'm not sure what Josh has to do with it. I am sure that you've now suggested that Tyler should be traded after two of the best wins we've had all year, the home game against the Hawks, and at the defending champion Mavs.

I'm also sure that you're probably dying to see him play for your favorite team, and it sucks for you that the Grizz lost Z-Bo and Arthur, but Memphis already traded for one power forward this year. I don't think they have anything that we truly need, although many people do have an interest in Mayo, but I don't think he helps us.

Since you apparently haven't noticed, the Pacers are pretty good. Unless they're making a significant upgrade, they might as well keep rolling with what they have. So what do you think about that one?

Haters gonna hate I guess.

Asher99
02-07-2012, 05:57 PM
I'm also sure that you're probably dying to see him play for your favorite team, and it sucks for you that the Grizz lost Z-Bo and Arthur, but Memphis already traded for one power forward this year.

This is at least the 3rd time in my short time here for you strangely claim Memphis is my favorite team? My other team was the Sonics and then OKC somewhat by default because I took a liking to KD35 from the year in Seattle.

I do like Tyler so Memphis would be one of the last places I would want him to play! Z-Bo will be back in a few weeks and when back he will play well over 36 min a game so that's one of the worst possible fits out there. For a guy who wants to act like he knows so much one would think you could see that clear as day.

If we did make a trade with Memphis around Tyler and Mayo as key players we would be asked to take back Speights. He's lost the major bulk of the PT to the smaller Dante Cunningham after terrible play and lack of hustle landed him on the bench.


Haters gonna hate I guess.

Indeed they will judging how you knock most our players when you post! Apparently you haven't noticed, the Pacers are pretty good.

Sookie
02-07-2012, 06:25 PM
And this is clearly a strategic decision because we moved Tyler to the weakside on offense. There's no way Frank thinks Lou is more useful than Tyler in pick n pops, right?




Sure Lou is. Lou doesn't get impatient and leave the PG double teamed.

So if the point guard knows when to pass it to Tyler to get Tyler's midrange shot (AJ I think is the only one who does this well), then that's the only reason you'd attempt a PnR with him. Otherwise, if the PG is looking for the PF to roll or the PF is looking for his own shot, Lou's the better option. It's sort of like how they ran the PnR with Foster a lot last season too.