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Larry Staverman
12-12-2011, 10:06 PM
I saw where Gasol just reached agreement with the Griz on a max extension.

With the way the market has blown up for centers this year and the fact that there will be several teams with cap space next year it is important to try to extend Hibbert this year if he is the future to avoid some other team driving up the price.

Usually you have to sign an extension before the player’s 4th season but this year I believe the date has been pushed back several weeks so we will get an extended look. I say if Roy shows continued improvement and more consistency we should definitely try to extend him this season to not get caught up in a bidding war and blow up our cap situation.

RichardHawes
12-12-2011, 10:09 PM
Thats my biggest concern about bringing in these young players with close to expiring contracts...It's gonna be a nightmare trying to keep this team together long term

Larry Staverman
12-12-2011, 10:41 PM
That is why we are only signing veterans to short term contracts.

Obviously we won't able to sign all of our rookie contracts to extensions but we should have a good idea which ones to keep.

Gamble1
12-12-2011, 11:29 PM
I said last year that we would be lucky to get him for 10 mill a year. I say give him a 4 year contract with a player option on the 4th.

We should lock him up as soon as we can or some other team will overpay for him.

PaceBalls
12-12-2011, 11:40 PM
So far he certainly hasn't played like he is going to get a huge contract. This is a huge year for Hibbert, the most important of his career.

Do any of you think really think we should sign Hibbert to a 8 figure salary if he plays like he did last year? I don't!

pacer4ever
12-12-2011, 11:42 PM
So far he certainly hasn't played like he is going to get a huge contract. This is a huge year for Hibbert, the most important of his career.

Do any of you think really think we should sign Hibbert to a 8 figure salary if he plays like he did last year? I don't!

Hibbert will get at least 40m-50m and that's if he plays like ****. Just look what Deandre Jordan got (43m on 4 yrs) someone will pay Hibbert a ton.

jeffg-body
12-12-2011, 11:45 PM
I think he will be much more improved this year with the added strength and conditioning that he put in throughout the offseason and during the lockout. Add in the fact that we have a nice scoring option at the 4 spot that will take some pressure off of the big man when he gets the ball down low. When it comes down to it I think he will choose his loyalty to the team and will sign a fair extension to keep the young core intact. I'd rather trade Danny than lose Hibbert at this point.

idioteque
12-12-2011, 11:47 PM
Is this the final year of his contract?

Hicks
12-13-2011, 12:00 AM
First of all, I think this is the season we can extend his contract (?).

Otherwise, if he becomes a RFA, I wouldn't be surprised if we end up paying him 11m per year on average. Especially if he has a better season than last year.

daschysta
12-13-2011, 02:54 AM
I have high expectations and hopes for Roy. I'd sign him soon as possible, he may give you a hometown discount because Roy is awesome like that. You let him blow up this year and make it to RFA status? Someone is liable to pay him like Marc Gasol.

Oliver
12-13-2011, 03:06 AM
I think Roy is too dedicated to the game of basketball to flop on us. He is already a pretty decent big man. In a season or two (barring serious injuries) I think he might turn into an absolute gun in the paint. If it were up to me I would lock him up now.

You know even as big and gangly as he is I don't think Roy is going to get any serious injuries until maybe around his 30s. I mean the NBA is a rough place and you never know, but he just seems to be built in a strange resilient way.

wintermute
12-13-2011, 03:49 AM
Yeah, we need to lock Hibbert up. There's going to be a whole bunch of teams with a ton of cap space next year. Once those teams miss out on Howard/Paul/Williams, they're going to bid up the price of guys like Hibbert.

Gremz
12-13-2011, 07:31 AM
You'd like to see them get in on a reasonable extension as early as possible, that's your best best to avoid a huge contract.

Gremz
12-13-2011, 07:32 AM
I have high expectations and hopes for Roy. I'd sign him soon as possible, he may give you a hometown discount because Roy is awesome like that. You let him blow up this year and make it to RFA status? Someone is liable to pay him like Marc Gasol.

Yeah, I think he's ready for a pretty solid year, so the sooner we lock him up the better.

Larry Staverman
12-13-2011, 07:37 AM
First of all, I think this is the season we can extend his contract (?).

Normally you have until Oct 31 after the 3rd year to offer an extension, which is before the season starts, but this year because of the lockout I believe I read that the deadline was moved several weeks into the season so we will get a look at his 4th year improvement before we have to commit.

Anthem
12-13-2011, 08:29 AM
Lock him up. Let's keep him here.

Larry Staverman
01-08-2012, 10:03 AM
Still haven't heard any talk of extending Hibbert's contract. The deadline is January 25th.

I wonder if Bird's plan is to keep the cap space open and wait until next summer?

It seems the price is going up with his play so far!

wintermute
01-08-2012, 10:19 AM
I'm in favor of locking up Hibbert and Hill as soon as possible.

Of the top FAs, it seems unlikely that we'd be able to attract players like Dwight or Deron. Other than those 2, all the best players are RFAs, i.e. very difficult to pry away. So I don't see the attraction of keeping our cap space open.

If we extend Hibbert and Hill to reasonable deals, we should have somewhere between $8-10m in cap space. Enough to offer a short David West-style contract to guys like Ray Allen or Steve Nash or Jason Kidd. That's probably the best chance we'll have of adding an impact free agent next year.

Roaming Gnome
01-08-2012, 10:27 AM
As much as most of us are in the "lock him up, NOW" thought with Roy.... I'm sure he and HIS AGENT have other ideas about seeing what his value is in the market.

When it's time to pay Roy.... He won't come cheap!

Ozwalt72
01-08-2012, 10:30 AM
I think it's going to take Danny Granger money.

Steagles
01-08-2012, 10:44 AM
Offer him more than he's worth NOW and hope he signs it so others don't drive his price up LATER.


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

Pacerized
01-08-2012, 10:48 AM
I'd hope we could extend Hibbert as soon as possible and that Bird is already working on it. This past free agency period was really highlighted by centers so we can easily see what his value would be on the open market and that's if he doesn't continue to improve. I think out of all the free agent centers the only one that was truly overpaid was Jordan. IMO Nene, Gasol, and Chandler were not really overpaid as big men go. Memphis first offered Gasol a 5/$40 mil contract which didn't fly because the Rockets stepped in with a bigger offer. If we could extend Hibbert with a contract at 5/$40, I think we'd be getting a bargain and even at worst getting our money's worth. Time is on our side so 5/$40 might get it done, if it takes 5/$50 so be it. Anything more then that and we might as well let him become a rfa since the most any other team could offer him is 4/55. I'm assuming that 5 year extensions are allowed under the new cba since that's what Rose just signed for.

Justin Tyme
01-08-2012, 10:50 AM
I'd rather let Hibbert play out the season b4 signing him. He's played good early b4 only to cool down. If he cools down, his contract should be cheaper than paying him at his current play. If not, we'll see how many other owners value Herb's view about not going after their RFA.

MillerTime
01-08-2012, 10:59 AM
If Deandre Jordan got 4 years $40 million....I see Hibbert getting around $50 - $55 over 4 years

Anthem
01-08-2012, 11:06 AM
Depending on what kind of money we're talking, I'd definitely love to see Hill and Hibbert extended.

vnzla81
01-08-2012, 11:43 AM
I posted a tweet by Mark Stein few weeks ago were he said that he asked few front office managers about Hibbert's salary and everybody pretty much told him that Hibbert is going to get at least 10mil a year.

tadscout
01-08-2012, 12:01 PM
While I hope they sign Hibbert and Hill to extensions, I also realize it is a two way street. If we aren't able to sign them to extensions, it doesn't mean we didn't try.

Justin Tyme
01-08-2012, 12:19 PM
While I hope they sign Hibbert and Hill to extensions, I also realize it is a two way street. If we aren't able to sign them to extensions, it doesn't mean we didn't try.


They are both RFA, so the Pacers can match any offer they get.

tadscout
01-08-2012, 12:31 PM
They are both RFA, so the Pacers can match any offer they get.

I know, I'm talking about the Jan 25th deadline, so we don't have other teams raising the price on us.

Hicks
01-08-2012, 12:47 PM
If we do sign Roy to an extension by the 25th, what does that do to our cap space immediately, if anything? Are there any kinds of holds that might disrupt our flexibility?

Larry Staverman
01-08-2012, 12:57 PM
If we do sign Roy to an extension by the 25th, what does that do to our cap space immediately, if anything? Are there any kinds of holds that might disrupt our flexibility?

According to Hoops World Roy's cap hold is $7,765,770. So if he starts at $10 million we lose about $2.235 million in space. Not sure if that cap hold number is accurate because I know it was adjusted in the new CBA.

By the way George Hill's cap hold is $6,259,077

Hicks
01-08-2012, 01:07 PM
According to Hoops World Roy's cap hold is $7,765,770. So if he starts at $10 million we lose about $2.235 million in space. Not sure if that cap hold number is accurate because I know it was adjusted in the new CBA.

By the way George Hill's cap hold is $6,259,077

I don't think those cap holds are in effect until the off-season, though. I'm trying to figure out what happens to the cap between the time the extension is agreed to and, say, the trade deadline of this season. Trying to see if we retain our current cap space or not.

tadscout
01-08-2012, 01:14 PM
I don't think those cap holds are in effect until the off-season, though. I'm trying to figure out what happens to the cap between the time the extension is agreed to and, say, the trade deadline of this season. Trying to see if we retain our current cap space or not.

I think the cap isn't affected till the year the extension starts. Doesn't make sense to have a penalty to extending your own players.

shockedandchagrined
01-08-2012, 01:21 PM
I don't think those cap holds are in effect until the off-season, though. I'm trying to figure out what happens to the cap between the time the extension is agreed to and, say, the trade deadline of this season. Trying to see if we retain our current cap space or not.

An extension should not affect this year's cap space unless the Pacers choose to push some of the money into this year, like OKC did with Nick Collison a year ago. Since the Pacers hold Hibbert's Bird rights, as an example they can extend him for 4/40mil, but push 8 million into the 2011-12 season, meaning the remainder of the contract becomes 4/32mil.

I think that's right.

graphic-er
01-08-2012, 01:44 PM
I would honestly like to extend George Hill by the 25th deadline. You know exactly what kind of player you are going to get with him. I'd offer him 5 Mil a year.

able
01-08-2012, 02:01 PM
Depending on what kind of money we're talking, I'd definitely love to see Hill and Hibbert extended.

My guess indeed DG money, 5/60 and I still think we need to do it, not doing it now tells him we are willing to risk losing him, not a signal i would like to give.

wintermute
01-08-2012, 03:26 PM
An extension should not affect this year's cap space unless the Pacers choose to push some of the money into this year, like OKC did with Nick Collison a year ago. Since the Pacers hold Hibbert's Bird rights, as an example they can extend him for 4/40mil, but push 8 million into the 2011-12 season, meaning the remainder of the contract becomes 4/32mil.

I think that's right.

Good catch, yeah we should absolutely do that if we're not planning to use the remaining cap space to add another player. We still have around $15m of cap space to use.

Could be that the Pacers are planning to do this all along, I couldn't figure out what they were planning to do with the extra space from the Posey amnesty. This would be absolutely brilliant.

idioteque
01-08-2012, 03:32 PM
I would honestly like to extend George Hill by the 25th deadline. You know exactly what kind of player you are going to get with him. I'd offer him 5 Mil a year.

Where do you get that number? Seems insultingly low.

pezasied182
01-08-2012, 04:30 PM
An extension should not affect this year's cap space unless the Pacers choose to push some of the money into this year, like OKC did with Nick Collison a year ago. Since the Pacers hold Hibbert's Bird rights, as an example they can extend him for 4/40mil, but push 8 million into the 2011-12 season, meaning the remainder of the contract becomes 4/32mil.

I think that's right.

This is exactly what I would do if I were Bird. Roy wants to be a Pacer, he deserves to get paid, and there's the cap space to do that this season. Only reason why I could see the Pacers not doing it is if ther want to go for a FA from China later on in the season

Winner
01-08-2012, 04:36 PM
I'd offer Hibbert a 4 year, 60m deal.

Peck
01-08-2012, 04:39 PM
Guy's I'm here to tell you that if he ends the year right now averaging what he is right now and does not improve one lick he will be close to a max player. Not that he deserves it mind you, very very few do. But a legit 7'2" center who is avg. a double double and has shown the ability to defend and stay out of foult trouble?

Believe me there will be plenty of teams lining up to sign Roy to mad money. Roy's agent would be doing his client a giant disservice if he extended with the Pacers and remember his agent is David Falk so he won't make that mistake.

We are just going to have to decide in the near future if Roy is the anchor to build around or not. I suspect that we will be seeing Roy in Blue & Gold for a long time.

TheDon
01-08-2012, 04:45 PM
This is exactly what I would do if I were Bird. Roy wants to be a Pacer, he deserves to get paid, and there's the cap space to do that this season. Only reason why I could see the Pacers not doing it is if ther want to go for a FA from China later on in the season

Sounds brilliant to me. I don't know if the whole gotta be at the cap floor issue was ever resolved or not. If not I most definitely would extend hibbert to that point cause if memory serves me correctly we were 6 - 8 million from that point. If we have got to the that cap floor then at least to the point such that we would be able to retain our flexibility to pull off some major move during the offseason in free agency or still be allowed to absorb salary. Also I would think this sort of plan gives us more flexibility at resigning George Hill wouldn't it? I kind of am hoping that maybe Roy will take a low amount to allow us to build upon what we have.

Pacerized
01-08-2012, 09:21 PM
I'd offer Hibbert a 4 year, 60m deal.

I think that's more then the max contract would be for hibbert under a 4 year deal. 4/55 is the most any other team can offer him, so at worst we should just match that. I'd rather see an initial offer closer to 5/40.

pacer4ever
01-08-2012, 09:33 PM
I think that's more then the max contract would be for hibbert under a 4 year deal. 4/55 is the most any other team can offer him, so at worst we should just match that. I'd rather see an initial offer closer to 5/40.

his agent isnt retarded the starting point will be 5 yr 55-60m like Noah Gasol and all the young C's have got.

pezasied182
01-08-2012, 09:50 PM
his agent isnt retarded the starting point will be 5 yr 55-60m like Noah Gasol and all the young C's have got.

5 year 55mil, while steep, isn't a bad contract for Hibbert at all. I mean look at what DeAndre Jordan was just paid.

Hicks
01-08-2012, 09:50 PM
5/60 sounds about right to me.

Anthem
01-08-2012, 09:57 PM
I'd love a 5-50. But it'll probably be 5-60.

Anthem
01-08-2012, 09:57 PM
I'd offer Hibbert a 4 year, 60m deal.
Why?

gummy
01-08-2012, 09:58 PM
I'm thinking 5/60 or 4/50 is about right too.

PacersHomer
01-08-2012, 10:31 PM
5/60 is definitely worth it for Hibbert. You take that contract and be happy you have a player like him on your team for the long haul.

Gamble1
01-08-2012, 11:23 PM
Guy's I'm here to tell you that if he ends the year right now averaging what he is right now and does not improve one lick he will be close to a max player. Not that he deserves it mind you, very very few do. But a legit 7'2" center who is avg. a double double and has shown the ability to defend and stay out of foult trouble?

Believe me there will be plenty of teams lining up to sign Roy to mad money. Roy's agent would be doing his client a giant disservice if he extended with the Pacers and remember his agent is David Falk so he won't make that mistake.

We are just going to have to decide in the near future if Roy is the anchor to build around or not. I suspect that we will be seeing Roy in Blue & Gold for a long time.

I agree with.you in part but this comes down to teams that will have capspace in 2012 and need a center.I am trying to think of all the teams but its going to be a very short list.. houston, kings, raptors, anybody else? Its hard to know what hibberts next contract will be considering the leagues higher salary floor and the potential teams that can make him an offer.

Peck
01-08-2012, 11:29 PM
I agree with.you in part but this comes down to teams that will have capspace in 2012 and need a center.I am trying to think of all the teams but its going to be a very short list.. houston, kings, raptors, anybody else? Its hard to know what hibberts next contract will be considering the leagues higher salary floor and the potential teams that can make him an offer.

Yea that is a good point, the new CBA will certainly help the Pacers in that respect.

However where there is a will there is a way, some team might be willing to dump something somewhere to get him the money.

But the very good news is at the end of the day it is up to the Pacers. It's as simple as this, if they want to keep him they can no matter what the cost thanks to getting out of our bad contracts.

Now it's just a matter of making sure you don't go right back in that boat, but we do have a lot of room to play.

In other words right now it's good to be a Pacers fan.:dance:

Gamble1
01-08-2012, 11:37 PM
Yea that is a good point, the new CBA will certainly help the Pacers in that respect.

However where there is a will there is a way, some team might be willing to dump something somewhere to get him the money.

But the very good news is at the end of the day it is up to the Pacers. It's as simple as this, if they want to keep him they can no matter what the cost thanks to getting out of our bad contracts.

Now it's just a matter of making sure you don't go right back in that boat, but we do have a lot of room to play.

In other words right now it's good to be a Pacers fan.:dance:

The tough decision that has been brought up before is if you hold the money back so you can try to sign other guys then go over the cap to retain hibbert and hill? Do the pacer save money now in signing hibbert or do they hold back the cap space for a fa?

wintermute
01-09-2012, 05:42 AM
By the way, Hibbert can get at most a 4 year extension (because the current year also counts). DRose is an exception because the Bulls used their max designated player clause on him; I doubt Pacers would do the same for Hibbert.

A possible strategy would be to offer Hibs an extension at a reasonable number, say 4 years $48m and hopes he'll take security over testing the market. If he wants more, then he can go to the market as an RFA meaning we can still match any offer. A Nick Collison-style extension could be very helpful here; say we frontload $12m of that new contract into this year as a signing bonus, that means Hib's remaining contract would be for 4 years at $9m per - a very reasonable number for a starting center. The Pacers still have around $15m in cap space in order to pull off that frontloading trick.

Another strategy would be to offer no extension at all in order to maximize cap space for next year. I'm not in favor of this though as I can't think of FA's we can reasonably hope to acquire who would be better than Hibbert and Hill.


Where do you get that number? Seems insultingly low.

Really? I think $5m per for Hill sounds about right. Unless you're thinking he'll have a breakout year (which I sort of am), then all the more reason to extend him as soon as possible


The tough decision that has been brought up before is if you hold the money back so you can try to sign other guys then go over the cap to retain hibbert and hill? Do the pacer save money now in signing hibbert or do they hold back the cap space for a fa?

We can't really do that because of Hibbert and Hill's cap holds (see Larry Staverman's post earlier in the thread). If we renounce their cap holds then we can make full use of cap space for FA but that means we can't re-sign Hibbert using Bird rights. Now it's true that Hibbert's cap hold is less than his expected new salary, so the Pacers could get a bit more cap space this way. But IMO that doesn't beat locking up Hibs early, especially if we plan to use the frontload trick to reduce his cap hit anyway. And for Hill's case I'm expecting his new salary to be less than his cap hold, so if we intend to keep him then might as well lock him up early.

D0NT SH0OT ME
01-09-2012, 06:18 AM
You guys do realize that it doesn't matter if we have cap space or not when we are re-signing our own players right? Our choice to amnesty Posey has zero affect on our ability to re-sign our players.

wintermute
01-09-2012, 06:31 AM
You guys do realize that it doesn't matter if we have cap space or not when we are re-signing our own players right? Our choice to amnesty Posey has zero affect on our ability to re-sign our players.

You're right that we don't need cap space to re-sign our own players. But if you do have cap space, you can do some clever things like Sam Presti did:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/22025/inside-collisons-unique-contract-extension

Also, cap space matters for next year because if we play our cards right, we can re-sign Hibbert and Hill, AND possibly add another FA. So this discussion isn't academic.

able
01-09-2012, 06:57 AM
I don't really care about the money it costs, and if he says no I am not really worried, but not making an extension offer of decent quality to Hibbert may not be such a good idea.

You want him here? then go for it now, Granger did, Roy may well do too.

Why not designate him btw? it shows how you value him and can you name another player on the roster you want to do that for at this moment?

Waiting for a player to break out is nice, but don't let it get in the way of your current roster.
And yes it would be nice if we may consider 3 years down the line we were to early and better use it on PG, but a lot can happen between now and then, 2 whole seasons of basketball will have passed us by before that becomes another topic.

Until then you protect your assets

Professor S
01-09-2012, 08:01 AM
Perhaps I'm wrong about this - and I'll admit I haven't read every post in the thread - but isn't it more lucrative for the player to re-sign in the offseason rather than be extended during the year (they can get an extra year and higher raises)? I thought this was enacted to prevent the extend-and-trade deals like Carmelo Anthony's last year. It is plausible that this is the delay in offering an extension...we'd like to lock Roy up for an extra year.

I realize this may not apply to those coming off of their rookie deals. If so, ignore my post. But perhaps some of our resident capologists can chime in here?

Pacerized
01-09-2012, 09:39 AM
Good call on Rose being the exception. Gasol was offered the max from a competitor at 4/55 when he became a rfa. Would we still be limited to a 4 year deal once Roy becomes a rfa or would it then be a 5? I'd be happy if we extended Roy to a 4/48 as you suggest. That's still a 7 mil savings over matching a max contract offer from another team and it's a 10 mil savings over what we could offer in a 4 year deal with the added 4.5% raises that a competitor can't offer. I'm also in favor of front loading his contract. If we get much closer to a max contract in an extension, we're better off waiting and matching an offer. He's ours no matter what if the team wants him. I want to keep Roy around but there is no reason to want to pay him any more then we have to. The more the team saves, the more we have to work with in bringing in other missing pieces. I aslo agree with Hill, but I'm not very worried about extending him. He won't get any more money as a free agent then Crawford just did.



By the way, Hibbert can get at most a 4 year extension (because the current year also counts). DRose is an exception because the Bulls used their max designated player clause on him; I doubt Pacers would do the same for Hibbert.

A possible strategy would be to offer Hibs an extension at a reasonable number, say 4 years $48m and hopes he'll take security over testing the market. If he wants more, then he can go to the market as an RFA meaning we can still match any offer. A Nick Collison-style extension could be very helpful here; say we frontload $12m of that new contract into this year as a signing bonus, that means Hib's remaining contract would be for 4 years at $9m per - a very reasonable number for a starting center. The Pacers still have around $15m in cap space in order to pull off that frontloading trick.

Another strategy would be to offer no extension at all in order to maximize cap space for next year. I'm not in favor of this though as I can't think of FA's we can reasonably hope to acquire who would be better than Hibbert and Hill.



Really? I think $5m per for Hill sounds about right. Unless you're thinking he'll have a breakout year (which I sort of am), then all the more reason to extend him as soon as possible



We can't really do that because of Hibbert and Hill's cap holds (see Larry Staverman's post earlier in the thread). If we renounce their cap holds then we can make full use of cap space for FA but that means we can't re-sign Hibbert using Bird rights. Now it's true that Hibbert's cap hold is less than his expected new salary, so the Pacers could get a bit more cap space this way. But IMO that doesn't beat locking up Hibs early, especially if we plan to use the frontload trick to reduce his cap hit anyway. And for Hill's case I'm expecting his new salary to be less than his cap hold, so if we intend to keep him then might as well lock him up early.

Gamble1
01-09-2012, 09:55 AM
By the way, Hibbert can get at most a 4 year extension (because the current year also counts). DRose is an exception because the Bulls used their max designated player clause on him; I doubt Pacers would do the same for Hibbert.

A possible strategy would be to offer Hibs an extension at a reasonable number, say 4 years $48m and hopes he'll take security over testing the market. If he wants more, then he can go to the market as an RFA meaning we can still match any offer. A Nick Collison-style extension could be very helpful here; say we frontload $12m of that new contract into this year as a signing bonus, that means Hib's remaining contract would be for 4 years at $9m per - a very reasonable number for a starting center. The Pacers still have around $15m in cap space in order to pull off that frontloading trick.

Another strategy would be to offer no extension at all in order to maximize cap space for next year. I'm not in favor of this though as I can't think of FA's we can reasonably hope to acquire who would be better than Hibbert and Hill.


We can't really do that because of Hibbert and Hill's cap holds (see Larry Staverman's post earlier in the thread). If we renounce their cap holds then we can make full use of cap space for FA but that means we can't re-sign Hibbert using Bird rights. Now it's true that Hibbert's cap hold is less than his expected new salary, so the Pacers could get a bit more cap space this way. But IMO that doesn't beat locking up Hibs early, especially if we plan to use the frontload trick to reduce his cap hit anyway. And for Hill's case I'm expecting his new salary to be less than his cap hold, so if we intend to keep him then might as well lock him up early.
Thanks for pointing that out again. The real question I guess is resiging Hill. If you let him walk for a greater piece then thats the only question mark in my mind.. Whose a greater piece? I have no clue but there could be some options out there.

I like the front loading the contract for Hibbert but then we basically give up being players during the trade deadline this year.


Perhaps I'm wrong about this - and I'll admit I haven't read every post in the thread - but isn't it more lucrative for the player to re-sign in the offseason rather than be extended during the year (they can get an extra year and higher raises)? I thought this was enacted to prevent the extend-and-trade deals like Carmelo Anthony's last year. It is plausible that this is the delay in offering an extension...we'd like to lock Roy up for an extra year.

I realize this may not apply to those coming off of their rookie deals. If so, ignore my post. But perhaps some of our resident capologists can chime in here?

Its more lucrative if he's our designated franchise player and Hibbert will not get that IMO. Rose also signed this year so its not more lucrative from when the FA signs his contract. This applies to 8 + year vets if my memory correct. For example Nene would receive less than Chandler because he has less years in the league if your talking max contracts and what can be offered to a player.

Larry Staverman
01-09-2012, 10:18 AM
An extension should not affect this year's cap space unless the Pacers choose to push some of the money into this year, like OKC did with Nick Collison a year ago. Since the Pacers hold Hibbert's Bird rights, as an example they can extend him for 4/40mil, but push 8 million into the 2011-12 season, meaning the remainder of the contract becomes 4/32mil.

I think that's right.

Is that still allowed in the new cba?

Paging Larry Coon!

wintermute
01-09-2012, 10:41 AM
Why not designate him btw? it shows how you value him and can you name another player on the roster you want to do that for at this moment?


I think the player has to get a MAX contract to qualify for the max player designation. So I don't think Hibbert will qualify, nor Paul George even.


Perhaps I'm wrong about this - and I'll admit I haven't read every post in the thread - but isn't it more lucrative for the player to re-sign in the offseason rather than be extended during the year (they can get an extra year and higher raises)? I thought this was enacted to prevent the extend-and-trade deals like Carmelo Anthony's last year. It is plausible that this is the delay in offering an extension...we'd like to lock Roy up for an extra year.


Extra year, yes. Higher raises, no. Roy's our own free agent, so we don't have extend-and-trade issues.

Yes, it would probably be more lucrative for Roy to test the market. However, extending now gives him the security of a long term contract even if he were to injure himself (knock on wood) this year. Just look at Jeff Green's situation - not a nice place to be for a young player just off his rookie contract.

Pacers have historically extended the players they wanted to keep. Foster for example has only been an FA once in his career (this year) because the Pacers have always extended his contract before.


Would we still be limited to a 4 year deal once Roy becomes a rfa or would it then be a 5?

We would be able to offer 5 if Roy goes to RFA. An extension is for a year less because the current year counts towards the whole contract. In the case of CP3, he also had an option year, so his possible extension was 2 years less than normal.




I like the front loading the contract for Hibbert but then we basically give up being players during the trade deadline this year.


Yes, that's the downside. Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to extend Hibbert to a "normal" contract now and restructure it into a frontloaded one later on if it turns out we don't have a better use for the cap space. So we'll need to make that decision soon.

Gamble1
01-09-2012, 11:08 AM
Yea that is a good point, the new CBA will certainly help the Pacers in that respect.

However where there is a will there is a way, some team might be willing to dump something somewhere to get him the money.

But the very good news is at the end of the day it is up to the Pacers. It's as simple as this, if they want to keep him they can no matter what the cost thanks to getting out of our bad contracts.

Now it's just a matter of making sure you don't go right back in that boat, but we do have a lot of room to play.

In other words right now it's good to be a Pacers fan.:dance:
Here is a list of teams and how much is on the books

1. Celtics (35 mill)- Tough to know what they will do but they need a big. Good news is that Bass will opt out of his final year and they may need to retain him.

2. Cavs (32 mill) - Have Vaj and Gee but could use more IMO. Gee is a FA

3. Dallas - Can't see them making enough room

4. GSW - Could amnesty Biedrens to make room but doubt it.

5. Rockets - Could cut Dalembert but doubt it

6. Wolves (31 mill) - Have to resign Love to the max to cap space will be used up. Also have to resign Beasly and Randolf.

7. Nets - Could offer a lot but already have Lopez who needs to be resigned if Howad deal falls through.

8. Hornets (30 mill) - Have Okafor and need to resign Gordon

9. Trailblazers - Hard to believe they have capspace but Roys injury helped them to free up some cash along with Camby.

10. Kings (34mill) - Have JJ Hickson as a FA and already signed Hayes.

11. Spurs - Could free up money with not resigned Duncan and using the amnesty of Jefferson

12. Raptors (40 mill)- Doubt they are players.

13. Wizards (40 mill). Need to resign McGee and have Blatche. Young could leave as well.

Big Man FA's in 2012...

1. Hibbert RFA
2. Kaman FA
3. Camby FA
4. Tim Duncan FA
5. Hawes FA
6. McGee RFA
7. Hickson RFA


The only ones that scare me on that list of teams that could offer HIbbert a lot of money is the Celtics, Nets and to a lesser extent the Cavs.

Looking at the big men available for next year I would have to believe most teams would go after a unrestricted FA before they offered HIbbert a large contract. I think we are safe.

count55
01-09-2012, 11:21 AM
An extension should not affect this year's cap space unless the Pacers choose to push some of the money into this year, like OKC did with Nick Collison a year ago. Since the Pacers hold Hibbert's Bird rights, as an example they can extend him for 4/40mil, but push 8 million into the 2011-12 season, meaning the remainder of the contract becomes 4/32mil.

I think that's right.


Good catch, yeah we should absolutely do that if we're not planning to use the remaining cap space to add another player. We still have around $15m of cap space to use.

Could be that the Pacers are planning to do this all along, I couldn't figure out what they were planning to do with the extra space from the Posey amnesty. This would be absolutely brilliant.



I like the front loading the contract for Hibbert but then we basically give up being players during the trade deadline this year.


Yes, that's the downside.


All of this is wrong.

Barring extreme circumstances (a buyout or career ending injury), Roy's salary is locked for the 2011-12 season at $2.6. Neither extensions for Roy or George Hill will have any impact on this year's cap figure or cap space. All extensions would begin next year.

The Pacers cap space this year will only be affected by trades or signings made for the current year.



I think the player has to get a MAX contract to qualify for the max player designation. So I don't think Hibbert will qualify, nor Paul George even.

The "Rookie Designated Player" applies only to length of contract - the extra year on the rookie extension - and has nothing to do with salary. The Pacers could "designate" George Hill, and still extend him at $5mm per - but give him the extra year.

However, as a practical matter, "designating" a player will (or at least should) be reserved for special, max level players. This for two reasons: first to avoid tying yourself to that extra year, and second, a team is allowed to only have one "designated" player that the team signed on their roster at a time, so the Pacers would not be able to designate any players during the length of that contract.

It seems unlikely and foolish to waste a designation on Roy.

Unless you can extend him for a reasonable amount now ($8 mm per season or less), the smart thing to do is to let him play out the year, make the qualifying offer, and let him test the market. If he yips all over the place, and ***** the bed in the playoffs again, his market will drop and the Pacers can sign him accordingly. If he plays great, even a max offer sheet will save the Pacers a year, and dollars with lower raises.

With one year off max deals, and lower raise percentages, and the stretch provision, the penalty for waiting to see what the market will bear isn't anywhere near as bad as it was just last year. With someone as wildly inconsistent as Hibbert has been, you're better off getting another year of games in before committing to him.

pacer4ever
01-09-2012, 11:53 AM
All of this is wrong.

Barring extreme circumstances (a buyout or career ending injury), Roy's salary is locked for the 2011-12 season at $2.6. Neither extensions for Roy or George Hill will have any impact on this year's cap figure or cap space. All extensions would begin next year.

The Pacers cap space this year will only be affected by trades or signings made for the current year.




The "Rookie Designated Player" applies only to length of contract - the extra year on the rookie extension - and has nothing to do with salary. The Pacers could "designate" George Hill, and still extend him at $5mm per - but give him the extra year.

However, as a practical matter, "designating" a player will (or at least should) be reserved for special, max level players. This for two reasons: first to avoid tying yourself to that extra year, and second, a team is allowed to only have one "designated" player that the team signed on their roster at a time, so the Pacers would not be able to designate any players during the length of that contract.

It seems unlikely and foolish to waste a designation on Roy.

Unless you can extend him for a reasonable amount now ($8 mm per season or less), the smart thing to do is to let him play out the year, make the qualifying offer, and let him test the market. If he yips all over the place, and ***** the bed in the playoffs again, his market will drop and the Pacers can sign him accordingly. If he plays great, even a max offer sheet will save the Pacers a year, and dollars with lower raises.

With one year off max deals, and lower raise percentages, and the stretch provision, the penalty for waiting to see what the market will bear isn't anywhere near as bad as it was just last year. With someone as wildly inconsistent as Hibbert has been, you're better off getting another year of games in before committing to him.

The reason Nick Collison signed that wacky extenstion was because he was already making 10m on the previous deal he was way overpaid. So on the next deal they could front load it.


For example say we trade for Kaman and wanted to extend him. We could give him 14m the first year(next year) and then make it drop severally by my interruption of how the salary cap works.


Here is a list of teams and how much is on the books

1. Celtics (35 mill)- Tough to know what they will do but they need a big. Good news is that Bass will opt out of his final year and they may need to retain him.

2. Cavs (32 mill) - Have Vaj and Gee but could use more IMO. Gee is a FA

3. Dallas - Can't see them making enough room

4. GSW - Could amnesty Biedrens to make room but doubt it.

5. Rockets - Could cut Dalembert but doubt it

6. Wolves (31 mill) - Have to resign Love to the max to cap space will be used up. Also have to resign Beasly and Randolf.

7. Nets - Could offer a lot but already have Lopez who needs to be resigned if Howad deal falls through.

8. Hornets (30 mill) - Have Okafor and need to resign Gordon

9. Trailblazers - Hard to believe they have capspace but Roys injury helped them to free up some cash along with Camby.

10. Kings (34mill) - Have JJ Hickson as a FA and already signed Hayes.

11. Spurs - Could free up money with not resigned Duncan and using the amnesty of Jefferson

12. Raptors (40 mill)- Doubt they are players.

13. Wizards (40 mill). Need to resign McGee and have Blatche. Young could leave as well.

Big Man FA's in 2012...

1. Hibbert RFA
2. Kaman FA
3. Camby FA
4. Tim Duncan FA
5. Hawes FA
6. McGee RFA
7. Hickson RFA


The only ones that scare me on that list of teams that could offer HIbbert a lot of money is the Celtics, Nets and to a lesser extent the Cavs.

Looking at the big men available for next year I would have to believe most teams would go after a unrestricted FA before they offered HIbbert a large contract. I think we are safe.
Dallas is gonna have a ton of room next year a lot of money is coming off the books they are going after the big ticket free agents though doubt they target Roy.

wintermute
01-09-2012, 11:56 AM
Hey count, now I'm confused.

In 2010-11, Nick Collison's cap hit went from $6.75m to $13.3m. According to Marc Stein's write-up, this was due to OKC's assigning their $6.5m cap space to Collison as a "signing bonus".

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/22025/inside-collisons-unique-contract-extension

Now, something in the new CBA might make this impossible now, but otherwise I don't see how the Pacers can't do something similar with Hibbert.

On the max designated rule, I am basing it on Larry's Coon article (which was admittedly some time ago):

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=67134



2011 CBA: Players coming off their rookie scale contracts can extend for four additional seasons, although the team can designate one player who is eligible for five seasons at the maximum salary. A team can have only one designated player on its roster at any time. All other veterans can extend for four total seasons, which includes the seasons remaining on their current contract. The extension in an extend-and-trade contract is limited to three total seasons, which includes the seasons remaining on the current contract.


Do you have new information contradicting this?

count55
01-09-2012, 12:01 PM
The reason Nick Collison signed that wacky extenstion was because he was already making 10m on the previous deal he was way overpaid. So on the next deal they could front load it.


For example say we trade for Kaman and wanted to extend him. We could give him 14m the first year(next year) and then make it drop severally by my interruption of how the salary cap works.

You are talking about a different scenario from the one that the others were. They were saying that the Pacers could sign an extension, then pull some of the money into this season. That is not possible.

Yes, contracts can be frontloaded in the way you described, but not in the way they described.

wintermute
01-09-2012, 12:03 PM
The reason Nick Collison signed that wacky extenstion was because he was already making 10m on the previous deal he was way overpaid. So on the next deal they could front load it.


No, Collison was originally making $6m only. This is how his salary breaks down according to Stein:



The precise year-by-year breakdown:

2010-11: $13,270,000 (Upped from $6.75 million with a signing bonus of slightly more than $6.5 million)
2011-12: $3,272,997 (First year of extension)
2012-13: $2,929,332
2013-14: $2,585,668
2014-15: $2,242,003

*Extension totals $11,030,000 over four years


Note that the signing bonus is applied before the extension is in place.



For example say we trade for Kaman and wanted to extend him. We could give him 14m the first year(next year) and then make it drop severally by my interruption of how the salary cap works.


It can't drop severely after the first year because contracts can only increase/decrease by 4.5% (or 7.5% for own free agents). So that doesn't work I'm afraid.

Gamble1
01-09-2012, 12:10 PM
Winterminute...

From your Marc Stein link.


Signing bonuses in extensions are usually pro-rated through the life of the contract. Teams under the cap, though, can apply the entire signing bonus at the time the extension is signed, as long as the bonus doesn't exceed the available cap space.



If the rules haven't changed then it may be possible.

CooperManning
01-09-2012, 12:18 PM
I was under the impression that players can't get Nick Collison-style deals off of their rookie contracts.

count55
01-09-2012, 12:29 PM
Hey count, now I'm confused.

In 2010-11, Nick Collison's cap hit went from $6.75m to $13.3m. According to Marc Stein's write-up, this was due to OKC's assigning their $6.5m cap space to Collison as a "signing bonus".

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/22025/inside-collisons-unique-contract-extension

Now, something in the new CBA might make this impossible now, but otherwise I don't see how the Pacers can't do something similar with Hibbert.

It looks like they at least partially closed that loophole:


(A) (A) The signing bonus shall be allocated over the remaining Salary Cap Years (including the then-current Salary Cap Year) under the original term of the Contract and the extended term in proportion to the percentage of Base Compensation in each such Salary Cap Year that, at the time of allocation, is protected for lack of skill. In the event that, at the time of allocation, none of the Base Compensation provided for during the then-current and any remaining Salary Cap Years under the original term of the Contract or during the extended term is protected for lack of skill, then the entire amount of the signing bonus shall be allocated to the Salary Cap Year during which the Extension is signed

Unless there is language elsewhere in the CBA that changes it, then taking the full signing bonus to the cap at the time of the signing is no longer an option. I'll have to talk to Larry and confirm.

It does indicate, however, that 1/Xth might be taken (with X being the current year plus the years of the extension). (Also, signing bonuses have been reduced to a max of 15% from 20%.)

So, theoretically, it appears they could take as much as 1/X of 15% to this year's cap, if they gave Hibbert an extension


On the max designated rule, I am basing it on Larry's Coon article (which was admittedly some time ago):

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=67134



Do you have new information contradicting this?

No, I have conflicting info. The summary I have speaks only to length, but the full CBA markup includes language on Max Salary. In either case, it's not an option I'd employ with Hibbert.

wintermute
01-09-2012, 12:49 PM
Thanks for the info, count. Something still does not jibe though. Nick Collison's "signing bonus" is for $6.5m while the rest of his extension is for $11m. Now 6.5/(11+6.5) isn't 20% as would be required for a true signing bonus, so there must be something else at work.

count55
01-09-2012, 01:11 PM
Thanks for the info, count. Something still does not jibe though. Nick Collison's "signing bonus" is for $6.5m while the rest of his extension is for $11m. Now 6.5/(11+6.5) isn't 20% as would be required for a true signing bonus, so there must be something else at work.

Just got an e-mail from Larry, and he says the rule is still there for teams under the cap. It allows those teams to treat it as a "renegotiation" instead of an extension. However, the section he referred me to was the same one I quoted below, so I don't know whether it's allowable, because it's not expressly forbidden, or what.

I sent him a follow up about the size of Collison's bonus vs. the total contract, and whether the rule above also is in effect for rookie scale extensions, but haven't heard back.

Larry Staverman
01-16-2012, 12:42 PM
http://www.nba.com/2012/news/features/david_aldridge/01/16/few-extensions-for-players/index.html

Roy Hibbert, Pacers (17th)

In this case, it appears the player is the one who's reluctant to do a deal.

Hibbert has established himself as a promising young center, and big men are always in short supply. With the likes of Dwight Howard and Deron Williams unlikely to be on the open market next summer, no matter what they wind up doing, Hibbert and agent David Falk may gamble that the 25-year-old Hibbert can generate signficant interest on the free-agent market, even if he's restricted.
"I'm not saying 100 percent we wouldn't do (an extension), but I'd say it's likely," Falk said Friday. "He likes Indiana, it's a great place, it's worked out well. But it's my opinon that generally, these things are hard to do. If I was an owner I wouldn't do one unless I got a discount ... I think more than anything else, the reason guys do extensions, in my opinion, is when you have a client who is insecure that he's going to get paid. I went through this with Jeff Green a year ago. I tell the guys, don't expect to get one. You're doing the deal a year in advance, and all you're getting is security. Centers don't grow on trees. If the guy has the confidence to wait, he's probably better off waiting."

wintermute
01-16-2012, 01:13 PM
http://www.nba.com/2012/news/features/david_aldridge/01/16/few-extensions-for-players/index.html

Roy Hibbert, Pacers (17th)

In this case, it appears the player is the one who's reluctant to do a deal.

Hibbert has established himself as a promising young center, and big men are always in short supply. With the likes of Dwight Howard and Deron Williams unlikely to be on the open market next summer, no matter what they wind up doing, Hibbert and agent David Falk may gamble that the 25-year-old Hibbert can generate signficant interest on the free-agent market, even if he's restricted.
"I'm not saying 100 percent we wouldn't do (an extension), but I'd say it's likely," Falk said Friday. "He likes Indiana, it's a great place, it's worked out well. But it's my opinon that generally, these things are hard to do. If I was an owner I wouldn't do one unless I got a discount ... I think more than anything else, the reason guys do extensions, in my opinion, is when you have a client who is insecure that he's going to get paid. I went through this with Jeff Green a year ago. I tell the guys, don't expect to get one. You're doing the deal a year in advance, and all you're getting is security. Centers don't grow on trees. If the guy has the confidence to wait, he's probably better off waiting."

Ouch.

Honestly, Falk is right. Extensions factor in a discount for the team. If Roy is willing to wait, he's likely to get a better deal next year.

Still hope he chooses security though - one less thing for us fans to worry about ;)

wintermute
01-16-2012, 01:19 PM
And oh yeah from the same article:

George Hill, Pacers (26th)

Hill's agent, Michael Whitaker, met with the Pacers in Indiana on Saturday, and said there was a "good possibility" that a deal could be worked out before the 25th. But if not, he's confident Hill, picked up from San Antonio on Draft night last June for the rights to Kawhi Leonard, will have a lot of suitors.

"They did express they would like to get a deal done before the deadine," Whitaker said Sunday night. "We did talk more about the possibility of doing four years instead of three years. That's about as far as we've gotten so far. If it makes sense, it's something we'll consider doing. If not we'll see what happens this summer. We both appreciate that they've expressed they want to get something done before the summer, especially since he's just played 11 games with them. I think that's a good thing."

xBulletproof
01-16-2012, 01:25 PM
I'm shocked we want an extension for anyone. The extension will clearly be more than the QO at the end of the year and will limit us in free agency.

Of course, in the long run that could be a positive thing for us. Matching an offer may end up being much worse.

CableKC
01-16-2012, 01:25 PM
Based off of what we have seen so far, I think that the FO should sign an extension to Hibbert and GH this season.....heck, I'd even look to add a 2 year extension with West if we are doing very good with this core on whatever the date is for the .

BTW.....Marc Gasol received a "$14.5 mil a year for 4 years" contract. I would love to get Hibbert at $12 mil a year....but honestly, given what he has shown us and the hard work that he has put into this Team since he put on a Pacer uniform....offering him $12 mil a year is low-balling him if you ask me. He maybe worth $12 mil a year...but the market is going to push his price up assuming that he maintains even 90% of his current pace for the rest of the season. Anything between $12.5 to 13.5 mil a year is going to be a good deal....but I'd assume that anything between $13.5 to $14 mil a year ( on average ) is more realistic.

graphic-er
01-16-2012, 02:02 PM
Marc Gasol was a special case because he actually went to RFA and got an offer from the Rockets. Typically all players will accept an appropriate extension on their rookie deal because in the NBA its all about the 1st contract to secure your career. If Hibbert got injured later on the in the year, it could ruin his value going forward. So most players given they like their situation, will always sign an extension. If Larry can't get it done by next week we should be calling for his firing. Because Mcgee is also up for a an extension and watch the Wizards over pay him. Thus driving up Roy's price before he even hits RFA.

vnzla81
01-16-2012, 02:13 PM
Marc Gasol was a special case because he actually went to RFA and got an offer from the Rockets. Typically all players will accept an appropriate extension on their rookie deal because in the NBA its all about the 1st contract to secure your career. If Hibbert got injured later on the in the year, it could ruin his value going forward. So most players given they like their situation, will always sign an extension. If Larry can't get it done by next week we should be calling for his firing. Because Mcgee is also up for a an extension and watch the Wizards over pay him. Thus driving up Roy's price before he even hits RFA.

http://www.8bitbrigade.com/images/smilies/954-not-sure-if-serious.jpg

Mackey_Rose
01-16-2012, 02:16 PM
The way he is playing, he's a max player.

There is no reason for him to sit down with the Pacers right now.

Heisenberg
01-16-2012, 02:33 PM
I want to keep Roy whatever it costs. But I'm terrified of what it's going to do to our cap flexibility.

Larry Staverman
01-16-2012, 02:35 PM
The way he is playing, he's a max player.

There is no reason for him to sit down with the Pacers right now.

So you are saying he has equal value to Lebron, Wade, Howard, Kobe, Paul, Durant and Rose?

I would say that he may end up getting paid like a max player but he doesn't equal the level of a max player. The problem is once a non max player gets paid like one of the stars listed above it distorts the market.

Sookie
01-16-2012, 02:38 PM
So you are saying he has equal value to Lebron, Wade, Howard, Kobe, Paul, Durant and Rose?

I would say that he may end up getting paid like a max player but he doesn't equal the level of a max player. The problem is once a non max player gets paid like one of the stars listed above it distorts the market.

They won't get paid the same amount (except Rose, and maybe Durant) because of the differences for veterans.

He's not superstar level, but other guys get max as well. And Roy's got a lot going for him, being 7'2, skilled, and an obviously hard worker. I'd pay max for that simply because of the rarity involved there.

Mackey_Rose
01-16-2012, 02:45 PM
So you are saying he has equal value to Lebron, Wade, Howard, Kobe, Paul, Durant and Rose?

I would say that he may end up getting paid like a max player but he doesn't equal the level of a max player. The problem is once a non max player gets paid like one of the stars listed above it distorts the market.

No he doesn't, and I'm not saying that he does. Not all max players get the same amount.

I think the max Hibbert can get is 25% of the salary cap, which would probably be around $14 per year. I can easily see a team offering him the same 4 year, $55 million that Houston offered Marc Gasol. Memphis matched, and I assume we would do the same.

With the way he is playing, I just don't see how it benefits Roy to not at least test the free agency waters. As long as he stays relatively healthy, and keeps up this kind of play, Hibbert is going to command near the max. He started out great last year too, only to regress. If that happens, his value will fluctuate, but with what we have to go on right now, I don't think saying Roy is gonna be a max player is too far off.

Anthem
01-16-2012, 02:51 PM
So you are saying he has equal value to Lebron, Wade, Howard, Kobe, Paul, Durant and Rose?
More like Chris Bosh.

Scot Pollard
01-16-2012, 03:00 PM
It's safe to say Roy won't be going anywhere. Roy wants to stay and the FO wants him to stay.

So it'll come down to when the hell we give him his extension.

I'd assume it'd be sometime this week. Probably same goes for George Hill.

Better to comfortably extend both guys right now instead of overpaying at the end of the season and feel pressured.

There's no reason to worry. It'll only come down to how much they'll be paid and hopefully this gets done soon. We were able to get Danny's extension done earlier in the year when he was expiring and I expect it to be done soon for these guys.

PacersHomer
01-16-2012, 03:01 PM
Just get it done, Larry. Hibbert's way too important to let hit the market.

sopgy
01-16-2012, 03:43 PM
According to Hoops World Roy's cap hold is $7,765,770. So if he starts at $10 million we lose about $2.235 million in space. Not sure if that cap hold number is accurate because I know it was adjusted in the new CBA.

By the way George Hill's cap hold is $6,259,077

It makes sense to lock up hill with a 4/20 or similar extension now because it will basically have the same cap effect for us this summer.

It makes sense to resign Hibbert in the offseason so we save a few cap dollars to spend on free agents if need be. Most likely he will get 12 mil per year so we could have an extra 5 mil to spend on a free agent before we re-sign Hibbert.

Granger - $13 mil
West - $10 mil
George - $2.5 mil
Hansbrough - $3.5 mil
Collison - $2.3 mil
Stephenson - $1 mil (not guaranteed)
Pendergraph - $1 mil

Total = $33.3 Million

Throw in a resigned Hill at $5 mil per year and Hibbert's cap hold then we are up to $46 million. So we have about 11 million in space to play with and only 7 million once we sign him.

That is not enough to go after Deron Williams directly, but Larry and David will find some creative ways to attack the offseason. Who knows, maybe we do a sign and trade with New Jersey for Williams and give them a piece or if we don't want to commit to Max money to a non max player we might even sign and trade Hibbert for someone special.

ps. Hoopshype has Jones with a player option next year for $2.9 mil and Hoopsworld has it for a Team option. Not sure which is true, but hopefully it's a team option

graphic-er
01-16-2012, 03:45 PM
http://www.8bitbrigade.com/images/smilies/954-not-sure-if-serious.jpg

I was totally serious. If Larry Bird failed to sign Hibbert to an extension and let him hit the open market. I would serious call for his firing. Because the amount of money we would have to match would basically screw all caps space we had before. I don't think Hibbert is worth 14.5 Mil a year, but thats what he would get in RFA, and Pacers would be forced to match.

Since86
01-16-2012, 03:48 PM
:lol:

pacer4ever
01-16-2012, 03:54 PM
I was totally serious. If Larry Bird failed to sign Hibbert to an extension and let him hit the open market. I would serious call for his firing. Because the amount of money we would have to match would basically screw all caps space we had before. I don't think Hibbert is worth 14.5 Mil a year, but thats what he would get in RFA, and Pacers would be forced to match.

and that is why Roy's agent probably isnt even talking to the Pacers

but your logic is lol

Roy isnt gonna give a discount if he signs by the 25th it would have to be for the max if I was Roy's agent.

pacer4ever
01-16-2012, 03:57 PM
They won't get paid the same amount (except Rose, and maybe Durant) because of the differences for veterans.

He's not superstar level, but other guys get max as well. And Roy's got a lot going for him, being 7'2, skilled, and an obviously hard worker. I'd pay max for that simply because of the rarity involved there.

Drose got the Drose exception new in this CBA he is making 5yrs 95m 30% of the cap what veterans get. Because he won a MVP and or other achievements get you the Drose exception after your rookie deal.


big guys get overpaid so much Roy isnt worth a max deal but that is what he will likely get all big men get way overpaid.

yoadknux
01-16-2012, 04:01 PM
http://www.nba.com/2012/news/features/david_aldridge/01/16/few-extensions-for-players/index.html

News about our guys:


Roy Hibbert, Pacers (17th)

In this case, it appears the player is the one who's reluctant to do a deal.

Hibbert has established himself as a promising young center, and big men are always in short supply. With the likes of Dwight Howard and Deron Williams unlikely to be on the open market next summer, no matter what they wind up doing, Hibbert and agent David Falk may gamble that the 25-year-old Hibbert can generate signficant interest on the free-agent market, even if he's restricted.

"I'm not saying 100 percent we wouldn't do (an extension), but I'd say it's likely," Falk said Friday. "He likes Indiana, it's a great place, it's worked out well. But it's my opinon that generally, these things are hard to do. If I was an owner I wouldn't do one unless I got a discount ... I think more than anything else, the reason guys do extensions, in my opinion, is when you have a client who is insecure that he's going to get paid. I went through this with Jeff Green a year ago. I tell the guys, don't expect to get one. You're doing the deal a year in advance, and all you're getting is security. Centers don't grow on trees. If the guy has the confidence to wait, he's probably better off waiting."

George Hill, Pacers (26th)

Hill's agent, Michael Whitaker, met with the Pacers in Indiana on Saturday, and said there was a "good possibility" that a deal could be worked out before the 25th. But if not, he's confident Hill, picked up from San Antonio on Draft night last June for the rights to Kawhi Leonard, will have a lot of suitors.

"They did express they would like to get a deal done before the deadine," Whitaker said Sunday night. "We did talk more about the possibility of doing four years instead of three years. That's about as far as we've gotten so far. If it makes sense, it's something we'll consider doing. If not we'll see what happens this summer. We both appreciate that they've expressed they want to get something done before the summer, especially since he's just played 11 games with them. I think that's a good thing."


Pretty good news about Hill, though it seems that we may need to offer a lot of $$$ to keep Roy...

BringJackBack
01-16-2012, 04:13 PM
Well I think it would be a good idea to wait until the summer for Roy, just to make sure that he's not going to get in a huge slump throughout te season like in te past. Not that I'd think it would happen, but consistency is a huge deal.

Pacer Fan
01-16-2012, 04:36 PM
If Hibbert gets 14.5 mil. The Pacers will be around 49mil this summer. Add Hill to that, let's say 5mil per, that would be about 54mil. If Pacers keep Lance, Pacers will have 3 spots to fill in Foster, Amundson & Price.

I don't see Pacers doing much in FA by the way of big additions to the team like a 10mil. per year contract. Pacers would be forced to either trade Granger or West to get anyone of high value. Pacers could do a S&T on Hibbert and possibly get some really good assets, which I could see Bird doing on the right deal.

It's way to early to tell what may happen, but if Pacers fall flat and not make the playoffs or get beat in the 1st round, I can see a big shake up then.

Also, Hibbert has risks of not getting a deal done by the deadline.

graphic-er
01-16-2012, 04:42 PM
and that is why Roy's agent probably isnt even talking to the Pacers

but your logic is lol

Roy isnt gonna give a discount if he signs by the 25th it would have to be for the max if I was Roy's agent.

You dont' know what Roy would do...You don't know that Roy hasn't already told his agent what he is willing to accept. You don't know that Roy hasn't already told his agent to get it done by the 25th.

This idea that his agent hasn't already talked to Larry Bird is LOL. An agent is supposed to secure as much money as he can when the opportunity arises. I think he would be doing Roy a disservice if he wasn't talking to Bird about an extension. Very risky to just blow off management for the year to become an RFA and make a few extra million. I would think the Risk of injury is too great.

Also Roy does not strike me as the type of client who would be agreeable to holding the Pacers by the balls over his extension.

Justin Tyme
01-16-2012, 04:42 PM
ps. Hoopshype has Jones with a player option next year for $2.9 mil and Hoopsworld has it for a Team option. Not sure which is true, but hopefully it's a team option


Hoopshype is NOT the best or most accurate place to get players salaries. ShamSports is better and more accurate. You/Hoopshype are off by 3 mil on your total for next year compared to ShamSports. IIRC, Shamsports has Pendergraph for about twice the salary Hoopshype has him. There is also a difference between the 2 on Lou's salary too. BUT I like the fact Hoopshype puts amnestied players in Purple, so you know what player a team has amnestied where Shamsports just drops the player.

Justin Tyme
01-16-2012, 04:46 PM
Pacers could do a S&T on Hibbert and possibly get some really good assets, which I could see Bird doing on the right deal.



Only if Hibbert is agreeable to an S&T, can it happen.

AusPACER
01-16-2012, 04:49 PM
ps. Hoopshype has Jones with a player option next year for $2.9 mil and Hoopsworld has it for a Team option. Not sure which is true, but hopefully it's a team option


I'm pretty confident that Jones has a player option, which l think he will take unless there is some form of bust up

Pacerized
01-16-2012, 05:59 PM
Any fear of losing Hibbert is over reacting. There is no chance that we lose Hibbert unless we want to. It's simply no big deal if he hits the open market other then the fact that we'll pay a little more. We have the right to match any offer, which we will, so he has no choice other then to stay with us for another 4-5 years if that's what the team wants.
I really hope we can extend him to save 2-3 mil per year but if not, I'm happy to get the additional year under contract when he becomes a rfa.
The fact that we'll match any offer may keep other teams from going after him and wasting their time when they could be going after a player they can actually land like Kaman who is an UFA.

Even if we sign Hibbert to a max deal, we could still bring in another player in the offseason first and not have to worry about crossing the LT line. At some point we may have to decide between keeping West or shipping out Hill but that's also no big deal if it means we can land a top tier pg in the offseason. We're in a great position to be in and I'm not at all worried about the salary cap or losing players at this point.

Justin Tyme
01-16-2012, 07:05 PM
I'm pretty confident that Jones has a player option,

which l think he will take unless there is some form of bust up


Yes

Yes

CableKC
01-16-2012, 07:48 PM
I want to keep Roy whatever it costs. But I'm terrified of what it's going to do to our cap flexibility.
I'd assume that the Pacers FO is not totally surprised by this and that it has likely been factored into their plans.

pacer4ever
01-16-2012, 08:02 PM
Only if Hibbert is agreeable to an S&T, can it happen.

in the new CBA does the player still get the 5th year if he is S&Ted??

But I hope they took that out where you dont get the extra year if S&Ted im pretty sure they did but im not positive.

D0NT SH0OT ME
01-16-2012, 10:22 PM
We won't re-sign Roy to an extension until the offseason, simple as that. Larry is going to want to make another major free agent signing, and the only way we will have cap space available to do that is if we let Roy become a RFA. While this will drive his price up, it will not matter because after this next year we will not be under the cap in the foreseeable future.

pezasied182
01-16-2012, 10:46 PM
We won't re-sign Roy to an extension until the offseason, simple as that. Larry is going to want to make another major free agent signing, and the only way we will have cap space available to do that is if we let Roy become a RFA. While this will drive his price up, it will not matter because after this next year we will not be under the cap in the foreseeable future.

Roy would still have a cap hold as a restricted free agent.

rexnom
01-16-2012, 10:53 PM
Why would Hibbert get more than Marc Gasol?

Trophy
01-16-2012, 10:58 PM
I expect his contract to be extended soon. I doubt Bird will wait until the end of the season and have the price jacked up by another team trying to outbid us.

Pacerized
01-16-2012, 11:12 PM
Roy would still have a cap hold as a restricted free agent.

I think his cap hold is about half of what he'll likely get as a rfa so waiting would make the most sense if we want to pursue an impact player in free agency.
Letting Roy become a rfa only makes sense if he's only going to take the max anyway. We would still have room for one major signing and still be under the L.T. even with Roy at the max. I think if we can save 2 mil a year by extending Roy now it's too much of a savings to pass up.

stew
01-17-2012, 09:37 AM
Well. It seems to have worked out well for jeff green...

90'sNBARocked
01-17-2012, 12:48 PM
In this case, it appears the player is the one whos reluctant to do a deal.


(Roy) Hibbert has established himself as a promising young center, and big men are always in short supply. With the likes of Dwight Howard and Deron Williams unlikely to be on the open market next summer, no matter what they wind up doing, Hibbert and agent David Falk may gamble that the 25-year-old Hibbert can generate signficant interest on the free-agent market, even if hes restricted.

Im not saying 100 percent we wouldnt do (an extension), but Id say its likely, Falk said Friday. He likes Indiana, its a great place, its worked out well. But its my opinon that generally, these things are hard to do. If I was an owner I wouldnt do one unless I got a discount.

Dam u Faulk! I know your doing your "job" but come on man

BRushWithDeath
01-17-2012, 12:51 PM
Did anyone expect him not to?

Trader Joe
01-17-2012, 12:51 PM
I think you're maybe slightly overreacting.

vnzla81
01-17-2012, 12:53 PM
More like "Restricted free agency".

Psyren
01-17-2012, 12:53 PM
That shouldnt surprise you.

xBulletproof
01-17-2012, 12:54 PM
Just like with the lockout, it's a negotiation. Everything said is to create leverage. Not to be 100% truthful.

PaceBalls
01-17-2012, 12:54 PM
I've read this quote in 3 or 4 other threads now, I guess we needed another.

But anyway, all signs point to Hibbert wanting to stay in Indiana, he and his agent just want him to make as much money as possible.

The downside is this is going to put the team in cap hell again with PG, GHill, DC and Tyler, but at least we will have awesome players! Cap hell is just fine as long as it's not tied up in dudes like Troy Murphy. :mad:

Kstat
01-17-2012, 12:57 PM
this is a leverage play. It happens.

The good news is, he isn't going anywhere. The bad news is, he's going to get top dollar.

The Big Smooth
01-17-2012, 01:02 PM
Just like with the lockout, it's a negotiation. Everything said is to create leverage. Not to be 100% truthful.

I agree with this. From everything I have seen in the media, and a few conversations I had with Roy in public (I used to see him a few times a week when he lived near Mass Ave, I don't see him anymore), Roy wants to be a Pacer for life. I've never seen a player fall in love with a city as much as Roy has. I believe that Roy's agent is doing what is in his (the agent) best interest. Roy will continue to be a Pacer, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see an extension signed in the very near future.

Phildog
01-17-2012, 01:03 PM
Maybe, but in the post-lockout NBA, these owners may be less likely to bid up prices on players. That restricted free agency is just creating unwinnable bidding wars.

Not sure that the owners are exactly united, but I believe I remember reading that our owner was against even bidding on others restricted free agents.

Bird Fan
01-17-2012, 01:07 PM
He should televise his decision and decide to stay in Indy.

Pacer Fan
01-17-2012, 01:08 PM
It's a gamble if Roy waits till summer. Sometimes set backs happen in the NBA.

Peck
01-17-2012, 01:09 PM
It would be negligent of David Faulk to not recommend to his client to test the free agent market.

Justin Tyme
01-17-2012, 01:11 PM
Maybe, but in the post-lockout NBA, these owners may be less likely to bid up prices on players. That restricted free agency is just creating unwinnable bidding wars.

Not sure that the owners are exactly united, but I believe I remember reading that our owner was against even bidding on others restricted free agents.


It will be interesting to see which owners don't agree with Herb's philosophy of bidding on other teams RFA.

Eleazar
01-17-2012, 01:13 PM
I hate agents so much.

Kstat
01-17-2012, 01:18 PM
It will be interesting to see which owners don't agree with Herb's philosophy of bidding on other teams RFA.

This.

Herb really can't say a thing about another owner bidding on Roy, because that would be collusion. In fact, David Falk could make a case for collusion if nobody were to bid on roy. It's a tough spot to be in.

IMO, nobody is going to place a bid on Roy, unless the negotiation drags out so long that a team with max cap space (like Dallas) decides to roll the dice and try to choke the Pacers with a max contract offer.

Best scenario would be to pay him a little more than his market value immediately, or pay him a lot more later when another team smells blood.

yoadknux
01-17-2012, 01:18 PM
Do you guys think we will try to sign Mayo? And somehow we won't be able to? :-p

Sparhawk
01-17-2012, 01:27 PM
I guess the owner's rule of not bidding on RFA won't keep some teams from bidding on Hibbert. So much for that plan.

docpaul
01-17-2012, 01:28 PM
This.

Herb really can't say a thing about another owner bidding on Roy, because that would be collusion. In fact, David Falk could make a case for collusion if nobody were to bid on roy. It's a tough spot to be in.

IMO, nobody is going to place a bid on Roy, unless the negotiation drags out so long that a team with max cap space (like Dallas) decides to roll the dice and try to choke the Pacers with a max contract offer.

Best scenario would be to pay him a little more than his market value immediately, or pay him a lot more later when another team smells blood.

Eh. Collusion happens when two or more parties have an explicit conversation with the intention of fixing prices. Refusing to bid on opponent's RFAs is a moral/ethical stance... and if other teams buy into that model without an explicit conversation between those teams, then it's fair game.

Kind of like countries that choose not to use their nuclear weapons. Or, when I serve my wife first at the dinner table. :)

Kstat
01-17-2012, 01:34 PM
That's what I'm saying. Herb can stand on his own moral ground, but if another team bids on Roy, he can't say one word about it, because that would be taken as collusion.

TheDon
01-17-2012, 01:40 PM
Like what has already been said that falk is just doing his job, but I really doubt Hibbert ever leaves the Pacers. I'm not that worried about it he'll get paid and remain a pacer the only thing I have a problem with putting out offers now is that we get into a bidding war with only ourselves.

cgg
01-17-2012, 01:43 PM
His cap hold will be less than his eventual salary, so who cares.

Mackey_Rose
01-17-2012, 01:51 PM
Perhaps if this little tidbit gets recycled through here enough times, the information it contains will change.

Since86
01-17-2012, 02:02 PM
That's what I'm saying. Herb can stand on his own moral ground, but if another team bids on Roy, he can't say one word about it, because that would be taken as collusion.

Why couldn't he? If he says that his stance is that he's not going to try and sign other teams' RFA, while a team or teams bid on Roy while he's a RFA, I don't think you can make a case of collusion if Simon talks.

Why? Because the actions of the other teams directly contradict what Simon is saying they should do, as the "right" thing.

If no team puts in an offer for Roy, I would think there would be a stronger case for collusion.

Trophy
01-17-2012, 02:03 PM
This isn't worth worrying over.

It's pretty much 99.9% certain that Roy will be back. He's a RFA, we won't let him just leave, he's happy here, we have the capability to pay him.

Dgreenwell3
01-17-2012, 02:05 PM
Whatever it is we should match it...Roy is quickly becoming the best player on the roster.

cdash
01-17-2012, 02:15 PM
Whatever it is we should match it...Roy is quickly becoming the best player on the roster.

As much as I like Roy, I am exercising a little more caution with him. Am I the only one who remembers his torrid start to the year last season? He was the MIP favorite until Kevin Love started going bananas, and then he continued to steadily fade down the stretch. Before we go lauding him with accolades, let's remember that he's started out fast before. I'd like to see him sustain this production all season before talking extension or claiming him to be the best player on the team.

BillS
01-17-2012, 02:30 PM
Perhaps if this little tidbit gets recycled through here enough times, the information it contains will change.

Teacher says every time someone blames Larry Bird for Roy not signing an extension, an Angel's wings tear off and he plummets to an agonizing eternal lake of fire.

Haywoode Workman
01-17-2012, 03:14 PM
I hate agents so much.

as do i. i hate any profession that basically adds no value to society. agents are money movers. it's sickening how rich these people are while at the same time, really providing nothing of value to society. those are the real parasites, not the single mother of 4 on welfare.

/end rant