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View Full Version : Collison is not the right point guard for this team



doctor-h
12-21-2011, 01:37 PM
I do believe that DC is a very good player but I don't think we will ever reach our full potential as a team with him leading it. He is not a point guard that runs his team with good decision making and getting other players involved. The ball is always stagnant, the other players stand and watch while they try to figure out what he is going to do. Until the Pacers land a true point guard who can run a team we are no threat to the upper tier teams.

Trophy
12-21-2011, 01:41 PM
I'm not ready to write him off until we see him with West.

There was a nice pick n' pop between the two last night.

doctor-h
12-21-2011, 01:47 PM
I'm not ready to write him off until we see him with West.

There was a nice pick n' pop between the two last night.

Yes there was but I honestly thought George Hill ran the pick and roll better last night than Collison. That is the simplest play in basketball to run shouldn't be that difficult.

Trophy
12-21-2011, 01:52 PM
Yes there was but I honestly thought George Hill ran the pick and roll better last night than Collison. That is the simplest play in basketball to run shouldn't be that difficult.

I was impressed with some of the PG plays Hill made also, but I'm not going to think too highly of the preseason.

CableKC
12-21-2011, 01:58 PM
I'm not ready to write him off until we see him with West.

There was a nice pick n' pop between the two last night.
Yeah...I agree. I'd re-evaluate this question after West is used to playing. I want to see if they can re-create the same magic that they had in NOLA.

Winner
12-21-2011, 02:01 PM
George Hill is NOT better than Darren Collison.

Ace E.Anderson
12-21-2011, 02:11 PM
George Hill is NOT better than Darren Collison.

Who's the better shooter? Hill
Who's the better defender? Hill
Who's the more battle tested player? Hill
Who's the better passer? Even
Who's the better ball handler? Collision
Who's faster? Collison

They are both equally below-average passers for the point guard position. Collison has some better point guard traits (speed, ball handling) than Hill but overall I think Hill is easily a better BASKETBALL PLAYER than Collison.

MillerTime
12-21-2011, 02:18 PM
George Hill is NOT better than Darren Collison.

Collison is a better PG, but Hill is definitely a better overall player

RLeWorm
12-21-2011, 02:19 PM
Lance is better than both of em

3 8 thee great t h
12-21-2011, 02:25 PM
Do u not realize it takes point guards two to three years to get a good flow of the NBA, a feel for the teams philosophy, and finding out where the team and it's players like the ball. Add to the fact that it might require for that player to have to change the way he plays which might have been embedded for years, that's a lot to do! Then add the fact that he's had three coaches and three different schemes to adjust to learn and the unlearn as he plays with diferent players I would be half way insane if I were him.... U have to be patient with him, with all players for that matter. Players, i take that back, ALL PLAYERS are not dropped into the league great some have to develop into a polished player that we see them be over time. I wouldn't say this if i didn't think that he didn't show flashes of being a good player some players are just going to be who they are but I don't believe that's dc's case.

I also believe over the last decade or so our perspective of how fast a player should developed have been influenced by players who have come in and made a name for themselves instantly Blake griffin melo lebron Roy (Brandon) kd rondo Paul rose come to mind among others....this is not the norm! Those are exceptions to the rule! Look at dirk when he first came in he didn't look good at all it took years for him to be the great player that he is, same with players like Aldridge, Westbrook, heck even granger took a few years to be even known as a highly improved player so I'll give dc another year or so to show me at least some improvement if then he doesn't ok, but lets not throw him under the bus so soon.

Unclebuck
12-21-2011, 02:37 PM
He's not as good as I would like either. His defense is what I dislike - his offensive game I can live with (although that isn't that great either)

He's an average starting point guard in the NBA.

Freddie fan
12-21-2011, 02:43 PM
He's not as good as I would like either His defense is what I dislike - his offensive game I can live with (although that isn't that great either)

He's an average starting point guard in the NBA.

Absolutely. This team is going to have to improve its defensive play significantly to be successful and it's pretty tough to have a good defense if your point guard is a weak link.

TheDavisBrothers
12-21-2011, 02:47 PM
Give the guy more than a season before you write him off jeez

Scot Pollard
12-21-2011, 02:55 PM
Jeez, I can't believe how many people are thinking this much into preseason and judging guys based on it.

I know there's not much to discuss right now because the games don't matter, but keep in mind, it's only preseason.

I have full trust in Frank that he'll work to fix the problems and get these guys to play well with each other.

As far as performance, it's preseason. No one is really going to play that hard. Any kind of bad performance, hopefully guys will improve it.

Talk to me when the games actually matter and these guys are playing for a purpose. Not exhibition games to get warmed up for the season.

It's almost like practice and a way for players to get their feet wet after a long offseason.

When the regular season starts, no one is going to bring up preseason and we'll hopefully see this team playing like they should.

These kinds of threads are just :stirthepo

doctor-h
12-21-2011, 02:58 PM
Give the guy more than a season before you write him off jeez

Nobody is writing him off. He is a good basketball player. He is not the answer at point guard. His defense is way too weak and he doesn't see the floor well at all. He looks for his own thing first and everything else second. When you do that you disrupt an offense. You have to do more than run a pick and roll. Which he doesn't even do that very well.

doctor-h
12-21-2011, 03:01 PM
Jeez, I can't believe how many people are thinking this much into preseason and judging guys based on it.

I know there's not much to discuss right now because the games don't matter, but keep in mind, it's only preseason.

I have full trust in Frank that he'll work to fix the problems and get these guys to play well with each other.

As far as performance, it's preseason. No one is really going to play that hard. Any kind of bad performance, hopefully guys will improve it.

Talk to me when the games actually matter and these guys are playing for a purpose. Not exhibition games to get warmed up for the season.

It's almost like practice and a way for players to get their feet wet after a long offseason.

When the regular season starts, no one is going to bring up preseason and we'll hopefully see this team playing like they should.

It was preseason for the Bulls too but they played hard and with purpose. It matters to them and it should matter to all of us. This is a shortened preseason which makes it even more important, especially with new players and coaches.

Pacer Fan
12-21-2011, 03:02 PM
He's not going anywhere so deal with it. If you can!

doctor-h
12-21-2011, 03:03 PM
Give the guy more than a season before you write him off jeez

He has had 3 seasons in the league. Point guards are born, they are not made. You can improve them but you can't make someone who is not one a point guard. It is time for the Pacers to stop undervaluing the position.

RLeWorm
12-21-2011, 03:05 PM
Even though he is fast and quick it seems like he has trouble getting to the rim.

doctor-h
12-21-2011, 03:06 PM
He's not going anywhere so deal with it. If you can!

Don't bet on it. Especially if the team doesn't improve as much as the FO thinks they should. Besides nobody is saying they don't want him on the team. Just play him where he should play.

cdash
12-21-2011, 03:08 PM
I still like DC, although I do think he needs to show us a lot more this year than he did last year. Especially on defense.

That said, I do think point guard is our weakest position. I've never been a big AJ Price fan and George Hill is better off playing the 2 if you ask me. It wouldn't surprise me if we ended up getting in the trade market for a PG upgrade this season or next offseason.

Scot Pollard
12-21-2011, 03:10 PM
It was preseason for the Bulls too but they played hard and with purpose. It matters to them and it should matter to all of us. This is a shortened preseason which makes it even more important, especially with new players and coaches.

I don't care about the Bulls.

WHO CARES ABOUT PRESEASON?

No one makes a big deal about it.

Let's just get the regular season going so we can discuss something that really matters.

People on here really flip out over everything.

The Mavericks were 0-2 in preseason. It must be time to panic! I haven't heard anyone make a big deal over it.

Preseason is for the benefit of the players and coaches to get a good understanding of where everyone is and to get back to playing games.

Most teams aren't playing their starters the minutes they would normally get for the reason of it not being a big deal.

doctor-h
12-21-2011, 03:20 PM
Do u not realize it takes point guards two to three years to get a good flow of the NBA, a feel for the teams philosophy, and finding out where the team and it's players like the ball. Add to the fact that it might require for that player to have to change the way he plays which might have been embedded for years, that's a lot to do! Then add the fact that he's had three coaches and three different schemes to adjust to learn and the unlearn as he plays with diferent players I would be half way insane if I were him.... U have to be patient with him, with all players for that matter. Players, i take that back, ALL PLAYERS are not dropped into the league great some have to develop into a polished player that we see them be over time. I wouldn't say this if i didn't think that he didn't show flashes of being a good player some players are just going to be who they are but I don't believe that's dc's case.

I also believe over the last decade or so our perspective of how fast a player should developed have been influenced by players who have come in and made a name for themselves instantly Blake griffin melo lebron Roy (Brandon) kd rondo Paul rose come to mind among others....this is not the norm! Those are exceptions to the rule! Look at dirk when he first came in he didn't look good at all it took years for him to be the great player that he is, same with players like Aldridge, Westbrook, heck even granger took a few years to be even known as a highly improved player so I'll give dc another year or so to show me at least some improvement if then he doesn't ok, but lets not throw him under the bus so soon.

DC is a decent player and he will improve as a basketball player. I like him. I just don't believe he will ever be an answer at point guard. A point guard has to be disciplined, a strong leader and interested in getting everyone involved. He is not quick at all with his decision making and the offense stalls with the ball in his hands. He is great on the break by himself but does not deliver to the people running with him. Eventually they will stop running with him. His defense should be much better on the perimeter with his quickness. He should be able to slow dribble penetration and keep his man out of the middle. That takes commitment to it and I am not sure he is committed.

BobbyMac
12-21-2011, 03:24 PM
I wondered how long it would take before people on this forum started complaining about someone....Why don't we wait about 10 games to see how things are going?

doctor-h
12-21-2011, 03:24 PM
I don't care about the Bulls.

WHO CARES ABOUT PRESEASON?

No one makes a big deal about it.

Let's just get the regular season going so we can discuss something that really matters.

People on here really flip out over everything.

The Mavericks were 0-2 in preseason. It must be time to panic! I haven't heard anyone make a big deal over it.

Preseason is for the benefit of the players and coaches to get a good understanding of where everyone is and to get back to playing games.

Most teams aren't playing their starters the minutes they would normally get for the reason of it not being a big deal.

You have missed the entire purpose of this post. I think the Pacers have improved themselves. I think they will win more games and move up the ladder in the East. I think DC is a good basketball player that can help our team. I don't think they can become a serious contender for a championship with him at the point guard. There are many that agree and many who don't. It is just my opinion.

ThatPacerFan
12-21-2011, 03:45 PM
Absolutely. This team is going to have to improve its defensive play significantly to be successful and it's pretty tough to have a good defense if your point guard is a weak link.

I really think they need to rotate better off pick and rolls, and especially screens. That's how the bulls got numerous open shots and layups last night.

Besides I think a defensive minded center is more important than a point guard. *cough* Tyson Chandler *cough*

90'sNBARocked
12-21-2011, 03:46 PM
Do u not realize it takes point guards two to three years to get a good flow of the NBA, a feel for the teams philosophy, and finding out where the team and it's players like the ball. Add to the fact that it might require for that player to have to change the way he plays which might have been embedded for years, that's a lot to do! Then add the fact that he's had three coaches and three different schemes to adjust to learn and the unlearn as he plays with diferent players I would be half way insane if I were him.... U have to be patient with him, with all players for that matter. Players, i take that back, ALL PLAYERS are not dropped into the league great some have to develop into a polished player that we see them be over time. I wouldn't say this if i didn't think that he didn't show flashes of being a good player some players are just going to be who they are but I don't believe that's dc's case.

I also believe over the last decade or so our perspective of how fast a player should developed have been influenced by players who have come in and made a name for themselves instantly Blake griffin melo lebron Roy (Brandon) kd rondo Paul rose come to mind among others....this is not the norm! Those are exceptions to the rule! Look at dirk when he first came in he didn't look good at all it took years for him to be the great player that he is, same with players like Aldridge, Westbrook, heck even granger took a few years to be even known as a highly improved player so I'll give dc another year or so to show me at least some improvement if then he doesn't ok, but lets not throw him under the bus so soon.

I disagree my friend

Derrick Rose, John Wall, CP3, Derron Williams, Rondo, off the top of my head, all showed all star potential their first year

ejwallace
12-21-2011, 03:47 PM
I suppose that DC was smiling too much, and enjoying himself too.....

trey
12-21-2011, 03:48 PM
I gotta disagree with this. Collison is a very good young PG with still untapped potential. He's extremely fast and quick, has a great offensive game with great passing which will be better once our team gels.

You can't really judge how he'll be until you see a steady starting lineup out there and they all get used to each other... if he's still making bad decisions and bad passes then, that's when you can say he's not a championship caliber PG.

Right now, how do we even know it's him making the bad pass and not the guy who was supposed to get the pass just being in the wrong spot or making the wrong move? Let's see how they're all doing once they've played some meaningful games together.

3 8 thee great t h
12-21-2011, 03:59 PM
I disagree my friend

Derrick Rose, John Wall, CP3, Derron Williams, Rondo, off the top of my head, all showed all star potential their first year

Wow did u read the first then stop I said those are exceptions to the rules and u would be wrong about rondo he was on the bench behind telfair for about a year and a half maybe to so he had time to develop slowly dc was just thrown into the fire when Paul got hurt.

troyc11a
12-21-2011, 05:11 PM
I think DC is the perfect back-up NBA point guard. He has too many limitations to be a top level starter (size, defense), he can improve his shooting though.
But his strengths are better suited coming off the bench. High energy, hustle, speed etc..
If its ok to say these things about Tyler, why cant we say it about DC? He is a good pg, but will never be above average due to his limitations.

TheDavisBrothers
12-21-2011, 05:26 PM
I disagree my friend

Derrick Rose, John Wall, CP3, Derron Williams, Rondo, off the top of my head, all showed all star potential their first year

Deron Williams and Rondo were both worse in ther 1st seasons then Collison, who looked pretty damn good filling in for Paul, dishing the ball to DAVID WEST

Dgreenwell3
12-21-2011, 05:47 PM
Who's the better shooter? Hill
Who's the better defender? Hill
Who's the more battle tested player? Hill
Who's the better passer? Even
Who's the better ball handler? Collision
Who's faster? Collison

They are both equally below-average passers for the point guard position. Collison has some better point guard traits (speed, ball handling) than Hill but overall I think Hill is easily a better BASKETBALL PLAYER than Collison.

DC looks like a much better passer than hill to me.

Pacergeek
12-21-2011, 05:52 PM
You have missed the entire purpose of this post. I think the Pacers have improved themselves. I think they will win more games and move up the ladder in the East. I think DC is a good basketball player that can help our team. I don't think they can become a serious contender for a championship with him at the point guard. There are many that agree and many who don't. It is just my opinion.

I agree with your opinion. DC isn't a PG, and would be a more effective SG.

Pacergeek
12-21-2011, 05:54 PM
The best passer on our team is Stephenson and it isn't even close. Give lance 30 mpg, and he would average 8 assists per game

pizza guy
12-21-2011, 06:11 PM
I really like DC, and I think he will be fine. Let's give him some time with Fluffy in the lineup and see what Vogel does with him and this team. He's young, and I think he's talented. Are the better point guards? Yes. Did the Lakers win with Derek Fisher (who I wouldn't consider a top tier PG)? Yes.

Let's just relax and see how this team does before we start writing guys off. There's a lot of potential in this team, and DC holds a good portion of it, IMO.

Pacer Fan
12-21-2011, 06:12 PM
I think in time some of you will find that DC is not the problem. He performed better in NOH his rookie year then he has here. This team / coaching staff is more the problem. p&p, p&r, and floor movement is the worst in the league here.
I see high school teams move better. Butler Bulldogs last year was a great example of a good ran team. I'm not hating on Coach V or the team, gotta give them time to get it together. But the Pacers was not very good going into the playoffs. This goes back to conversation about Rondo. Yes he is a great player, but one can't expect him to come here and turn the tide. It takes a team effort, BB IQ and a tight ran ship to have a PG utilize his weapons. How often did you see the offense stagnant...standing around...not as so much to run a good pick. It was embarrassing. It was embarrassing to see Hans kill himself during the whole game and seeing others just jack it up. I personally felt sorry for the guy (Hans). It was a losing battle.

So, I say get off DC's back until he has the opportunities consistently and then if he fails to execute them, then rip him up.

luis3ep
12-21-2011, 06:31 PM
IMO Lance will be miles better than both when he's matured a little more. Lance already has the vision that both lack, and has the size and dribbles to get past a man, a pure shooting stroke, and decent defense. You can see either A.) he's being limited in what he can do (# of shots, dribbling too much) and B.) he doesn't want to come off as a ball hog so he's deferring a lot. It looks like he's matured since he's been here and hope to see great things to come from him as I really do want him to do well. He seems really motivated and excited about finally getting some playing time.

BlueNGold
12-21-2011, 06:48 PM
Collison is a decent starting PG. Maybe average. But average isn't good enough if you want to do well in the playoffs. You really need a PG who is deadly from 3 or one who can distribute the ball and get players easy shots. He is neither.

So, that's our problem. We have not been able to hit shots in large part because the captain doesn't have control of the ship. He is not finding the open man...instead the rock gets passed around and nobody has good enough court vision or makes crisp enough passes to get guys easy shots. I'm afraid that will not change with Collison...which is why Lance is the team's best hope to really step it up a notch in the standings.

Combine this with the fact he's a below average defender, he is a weak spot. Still, he has some talents so we're really better at that position since good-Tinsley.

Pacer Fan
12-21-2011, 07:14 PM
Collison is a decent starting PG. Maybe average. But average isn't good enough if you want to do well in the playoffs. You really need a PG who is deadly from 3 or one who can distribute the ball and get players easy shots. He is neither.

So, that's our problem. We have not been able to hit shots in large part because the captain doesn't have control of the ship. He is not finding the open man...instead the rock gets passed around and nobody has good enough court vision or makes crisp enough passes to get guys easy shots. I'm afraid that will not change with Collison...which is why Lance is the team's best hope to really step it up a notch in the standings.

Combine this with the fact he's a below average defender, he is a weak spot. Still, he has some talents so we're really better at that position since good-Tinsley.

Honestly, What are you watching? Are you watching the games? If everyone is covered, not moving, no motion, he drives and the Center and PF either are covered with no passing lane or they are just standing there watching, how do you expect DC to make a play other then a layup or tear drop? I record every game and many of them I watch multiple times. That freakin team done more standing around with DC coming into half court that they could have had a Coke! The captain of the ship that does't have control is the coach and the generic plays they are trying to run. Very basic plays....just terrible execution. Again, I am sure they will get this together as the season just started. :shakehead

BlueNGold
12-21-2011, 07:33 PM
Honestly, What are you watching? Are you watching the games? If everyone is covered, not moving, no motion, he drives and the Center and PF either are covered with no passing lane or they are just standing there watching, how do you expect DC to make a play other then a layup or tear drop? I record every game and many of them I watch multiple times. That freakin team done more standing around with DC coming into half court that they could have had a Coke! The captain of the ship that does't have control is the coach and the generic plays they are trying to run. Very basic plays....just terrible execution. Again, I am sure they will get this together as the season just started. :shakehead

Perhaps you need to watch it a few more times...;)

Darren Collison is the best PG we've had since Tinsley. ...but make no mistake, similar to TJ Ford, his ceiling isn't high because he's not a gifted PG.

D-BONE
12-21-2011, 07:41 PM
Lance should be a shooting guard. Yes he has some passing ability, but his overall game, style, movement, etc. scream SG to me.

AusPACER
12-21-2011, 07:43 PM
Honestly, What are you watching? Are you watching the games? If everyone is covered, not moving, no motion, he drives and the Center and PF either are covered with no passing lane or they are just standing there watching, how do you expect DC to make a play other then a layup or tear drop? I record every game and many of them I watch multiple times. That freakin team done more standing around with DC coming into half court that they could have had a Coke! The captain of the ship that does't have control is the coach and the generic plays they are trying to run. Very basic plays....just terrible execution. Again, I am sure they will get this together as the season just started. :shakehead


I agree with this. Yes DC may has a weakness but most point guards do. Very rarely will you find a perfect point guard.

I would tend to get frustrated when DC would over dribble, but looking back if Danny is just standing in the corner waiting to jack a 3 or a step back jumper, and Roy is standing in the post with his hands at his side I can't really blame him . Point guards need to be a floor general but if guys are static, or failing to make an extra pass or whatever, I don't think you can blame him.

He can only do so much and if those around him fail to execute then some here are throwing the wrong guy under the bus.

presto123
12-21-2011, 07:52 PM
The best passer on our team is Stephenson and it isn't even close. Give lance 30 mpg, and he would average 8 assists per game

We got rid of the best passer on the team. He is a PF. I really think we'll miss the little things Josh did this season because our offense always goes through stretches where it is stagnant. We have to be one of the most inconsistent teams in the NBA.

sbaker50
12-21-2011, 08:04 PM
IMO, DC played his best ball of the year in the playoffs last year. He was, for the most part, holding his own against the MVP of the league. If he can bring that kind of performance when the real games start, then I think we've found our guy at point guard. Keep in mind these guys have only been together for about 2 weeks now, it's gonna take time to get everyone clicking right. When that happens I think everyone will be happy with the product on the floor. Not just DC, but the whole team in general.

cdash
12-21-2011, 08:06 PM
Lance should be a shooting guard. Yes he has some passing ability, but his overall game, style, movement, etc. scream SG to me.

TYREKE EVANS!!!!!!!!!!

'Reke just set the precedent. Same type of player. Failed as a PG. Just because you can pass and handle the ball a little does not make you a point guard.

BlueNGold
12-21-2011, 08:26 PM
Lance should be a shooting guard. Yes he has some passing ability, but his overall game, style, movement, etc. scream SG to me.

I suppose I'm with the coaching staff on Lance. I see his skills being most valuable as PG. I don't think he will ever be a good SG because he's not particularly quick nor is he a gifted shooter. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by overall game. The best part of his game is passing and breaking down a defense. His style and movement is to juke. I suppose he best get back to Rucker Park. In the meantime, he will be playing backup PG for the Pacers...

cdash
12-21-2011, 08:27 PM
I suppose I'm with the coaching staff on Lance. I see his skills being most valuable as PG. I don't think he will ever be a good SG because he's not particularly quick nor is he a gifted shooter. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by overall game. The best part of his game is passing and breaking down a defense. His style and movement is to juke. I suppose he best get back to Rucker Park. In the meantime, he will be playing backup PG for the Pacers...

The fact that he's not particularly quick seems like it would hurt him as a point guard more than a shooting guard.

BlueNGold
12-21-2011, 08:30 PM
The fact that he's not particularly quick seems like it would hurt him as a point guard more than a shooting guard.

I don't consider Billups, Deron and host of other PG's that quick. Certainly not Mark Jackson. Name me a SG slower than Mark Jackson.

Also, an aging Jason Kidd...with a ring no less.

Banta
12-21-2011, 08:44 PM
I'm not sure if this will count as hijacking the thread, but I'll tell you what I am thinking after 2 preseason games: Vogel better settle on a line up and rotation so these guys can start feeling comfortable in their roles, because the offense is discordant and inharmonious right now.

I'm telling myself "Its early" and that's the truth, but the fear that we may have unrealistic expectations for this team might be setting in the teensiest bit.

granger4mvp
12-21-2011, 08:47 PM
Re: hibbert is not the right center for this team

pizza guy
12-21-2011, 09:28 PM
So when Paul George isn't a 25ppg scorer playing lock-down defense at three positions and making every last-second game-winning shot after this season, will he "not be the right SG for this team"?

DC is starting his 3rd year. Second with the Pacers, and first with Vogel as head coach, not to mention a distinctly different roster. Add to that the fact that training camp & pre-season were ridiculously short, and I think it's pretty clear that the hypothesis of this thread is just a little premature.

If things go well with West, Hibbert continues to improve, and George meets half the expectations, I think DC will be an All-Star. I fully believe that this team needs stability and consistency from the head coach, and that we'll get it in Vogel. I think Vogel will allow DC to be in charge on the court, and that will release his potential a little more.

doctor-h
12-21-2011, 10:15 PM
So when Paul George isn't a 25ppg scorer playing lock-down defense at three positions and making every last-second game-winning shot after this season, will he "not be the right SG for this team"?

DC is starting his 3rd year. Second with the Pacers, and first with Vogel as head coach, not to mention a distinctly different roster. Add to that the fact that training camp & pre-season were ridiculously short, and I think it's pretty clear that the hypothesis of this thread is just a little premature.

If things go well with West, Hibbert continues to improve, and George meets half the expectations, I think DC will be an All-Star. I fully believe that this team needs stability and consistency from the head coach, and that we'll get it in Vogel. I think Vogel will allow DC to be in charge on the court, and that will release his potential a little more.

All your ifs have absolutely nothing to do with it. Collison will still not be a leader, he will still focus on whats in front of him, block out whats around him, pound the ball instead of moving it, not put his teammates in the right position, not recognize mismatches, play horrible defense, and not deliver the ball to teammates on the break. He always looks to score himself first. You cannot make him do these things, it is called court sense. You either have it or you don't.

Sookie
12-21-2011, 10:21 PM
I suppose I'm with the coaching staff on Lance. I see his skills being most valuable as PG. I don't think he will ever be a good SG because he's not particularly quick nor is he a gifted shooter. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by overall game. The best part of his game is passing and breaking down a defense. His style and movement is to juke. I suppose he best get back to Rucker Park. In the meantime, he will be playing backup PG for the Pacers...

I don't think it's the coaching staff, I think it's Larry Bird.

As for DC, guys, I'd say give him a few games and time to develop. Is he pass first? no. Will he ever be? No. But he never was, so it's not like we got duped there.

BlueNGold
12-21-2011, 10:30 PM
I don't think it's the coaching staff, I think it's Larry Bird.

As for DC, guys, I'd say give him a few games and time to develop. Is he pass first? no. Will he ever be? No. But he never was, so it's not like we got duped there.

Maybe it is Larry. However, I agree with almost all of his decisions and statements when it comes to personnel and I would disagree with him on that one. Also, I suspect Larry looks at Magic Johnson as the model and he's pass first.

So, while it may be Larry, I don't think DC is viewed as the answer at that position. He's a good player and competed well in Chicago before his injury...and he's one of our better players in fact....and I hope he proves me wrong...but I don't see a PG I want starting on a contender. We have to get more talent and preferably a little size at the 1.

Edit: with all that said, I'm fine with him at PG for now. He's certainly better than we've seen since Tinsley.

pacer4ever
12-21-2011, 10:34 PM
Maybe it is Larry. However, I agree with almost all of his decisions and statements when it comes to personnel and I would disagree with him on that one. Also, I suspect Larry looks at Magic Johnson as the model and he's pass first.

So, while it may be Larry, I don't think DC is viewed as the answer at that position. He's a good player and competed well in Chicago before his injury...and he's one of our better players in fact....and I hope he proves me wrong...but I don't see a PG I want starting on a contender. We have to get more talent and preferably a little size at the 1.

Magic Johnson? GTFO of here there will never be another Magic.

He may view him as Dennis Johnson who like Lance was a mid 2nd round pick who really developed as a good pg throughout his career and Lance has almost the same frame just stronger.


I view Lance as almost identical to Terrence Williams very similar players on and off the court Williams has a much better shot though. I still Lance should play wing he can still rung PnR as a wing we do it all the time with Granger and George.

jeffg-body
12-21-2011, 10:38 PM
I am still out with DC on whether he is the right fit for our PG spot. The kid has had a lot to handle in his early career with having to learn so many game plans and different coaches. I think he should be given the year to see if he can be our PG of the future and now. There's no doubt that he is one heck of a player and I think adding DW will make his confidence grow if they can re-kindle their bond with the pick and roll.

vnzla81
12-21-2011, 10:39 PM
DC is not the right starting point guard for this team or any other team in the NBA, good backup but not an starter.

PGisthefuture
12-21-2011, 10:45 PM
I think having David West starting and getting more acclimated to the offense will really improve Collison's game. You also can't really take much from preseason games, they never show how your team will do in the regular season.

BlueNGold
12-21-2011, 10:47 PM
Magic Johnson? GTFO of here there will never be another Magic.

He may view him as Dennis Johnson who like Lance was a mid 2nd round pick who really developed as a good pg throughout his career and Lance has almost the same frame just stronger.


I view Lance as almost identical to Terrence Williams very similar players on and off the court Williams has a much better shot though. I still Lance should play wing he can still rung PnR as a wing we do it all the time with Granger and George.

Lance is no Magic and I agree...but we're talking about DC...not Lance.

BTW, this board never changes. There was a time when I was telling people that offense was Granger's strength. Very few agreed. Then I supported Hans. Still, lots of detractors. Now I'm saying DC is a temporary...but pretty good fix. We need a new captain to ever legitimately contend because we need a PG who can leverage the talents of other players on offense. DC does not do that well and will have to prove he can do it. I am not hopeful that will happen and instead I expect a little better version of TJ Ford.

Sookie
12-21-2011, 10:53 PM
Maybe it is Larry. However, I agree with almost all of his decisions and statements when it comes to personnel and I would disagree with him on that one. Also, I suspect Larry looks at Magic Johnson as the model and he's pass first.

So, while it may be Larry, I don't think DC is viewed as the answer at that position. He's a good player and competed well in Chicago before his injury...and he's one of our better players in fact....and I hope he proves me wrong...but I don't see a PG I want starting on a contender. We have to get more talent and preferably a little size at the 1.

Edit: with all that said, I'm fine with him at PG for now. He's certainly better than we've seen since Tinsley.

I agree that Larry doesn't view DC as the answer. He views Lance as the answer, DC is insurance. If Lance pans out, DC will be part of the deal that gets us a really good player.

I'm not saying I agree with any of that, but I think it's pretty obvious that's what Larry is hoping for.

BlueNGold
12-21-2011, 10:58 PM
I agree that Larry doesn't view DC as the answer. He views Lance as the answer, DC is insurance. If Lance pans out, DC will be part of the deal that gets us a really good player.

I'm not saying I agree with any of that, but I think it's pretty obvious that's what Larry is hoping for.

Oh. Well then. I agree with Larry. That's precisely how I see it. I think Lance is still a long shot though because there are so many IED's to avoid with him...and at his age...eek. In the meantime, I'm glad we have DC.

beast23
12-21-2011, 11:25 PM
DC is not the right starting point guard for this team or any other team in the NBA, good backup but not an starter.
I think that remains to be seen. One thing we can agree on is that Collison will never be a defensive force at PG. But I would really like to see what type of chemistry can be re-developed between Collison and West, especially pertaining to PnR/PnP before I would state that Collison is not an adequate PG for this team... at least in choosing from among the PGs we have.

If Collison does not work well with West, then yes... I think a more suitable PG should be acquired.

vnzla81
12-22-2011, 12:04 AM
Like I said before to me DC is like a worse version of Aaron Brooks just look at this video and tell me they don't look alike:


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MHLgrpBqUdQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ub5oiFwmzbQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Good players to have off the bench but not starters.

cdash
12-22-2011, 12:09 AM
I don't consider Billups, Deron and host of other PG's that quick. Certainly not Mark Jackson. Name me a SG slower than Mark Jackson.

Also, an aging Jason Kidd...with a ring no less.

Yeah, and Lance isn't on their level. Those guys have other skills that make up for their lack of elite quickness. Lance isn't near Billups as a shooter, nowhere near any of them with decision making, and isn't a passing savant like Jackson and Kidd.

pacer4ever
12-22-2011, 12:49 AM
I don't consider Billups, Deron and host of other PG's that quick. Certainly not Mark Jackson. Name me a SG slower than Mark Jackson.

Also, an aging Jason Kidd...with a ring no less.

Austin Daye is playing SG this year or at least he was last night. He is pretty damn slow.

Oliver
12-22-2011, 01:25 AM
My little brother's grandmother told me, take some Vaseline and swallow it, and it will help you.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5eUtSV519vU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

TheDavisBrothers
12-22-2011, 01:30 AM
Austin Daye is playing SG this year or at least he was last night. He is pretty damn slow.

It probably doesn't help that he's 6'11

cdash
12-22-2011, 01:32 AM
It probably doesn't help that he's 6'11

Get ready for a slew of "But Paul George is 6'10 now and he can guard SGs just fine!!!" posts.

Austin Daye doesn't do anything for me. Never has.

pezasied182
12-22-2011, 01:43 AM
I am much, much more comfortable right now with DC being the starting point than anyone else on the team. Hill did not look like a pg during what I saw of the second preseason game. He looked quite horrible actually. Granted, Collison didn't fare much better, but DC knows the system and the players and is more comfortable IMO. This could change as the season progresses, but as of right now DC is our best bet for starting pg. We aren't going to land a new pg this season.

TheDavisBrothers
12-22-2011, 01:44 AM
Get ready for a slew of "But Paul George is 6'10 now and he can guard SGs just fine!!!" posts.

Austin Daye doesn't do anything for me. Never has.

That 1 inch makes all the difference :-p
Idk I think he could be a solid all around player, he seems like he's the new Prince

mattie
12-22-2011, 07:20 PM
Collison is a decent starting PG. Maybe average. But average isn't good enough if you want to do well in the playoffs. You really need a PG who is deadly from 3 or one who can distribute the ball and get players easy shots. He is neither.




Just like Tony Parker right?

They need to be able to be deadly shooters from three like Rondo, excellent distributors like Derek Fisher..

Day-V
12-22-2011, 07:26 PM
It probably doesn't help that he's 6'11

But Paul George is 6'10 now and he can guard SGs just fine!!!

BlueNGold
12-22-2011, 07:30 PM
Just like Tony Parker right?

They need to be able to be deadly shooters from three like Rondo, excellent distributors like Derek Fisher..

Good point. I guess I left out great defense.

Collison isn't a great shooter, distributor and he's a terrible defender. Thanks for helping my case.

Edit: Obviously I'm referring to Rondo there. On top of that, Fisher is a great clutch perimeter shooter and he's a lot better on D than Collison. Part of the reason is because he's also 50lbs heavier! I'm not going to call Collison a midget, but you make your own conclusion. Fisher is also a very smart player. Parker, believe it or not, is 25lbs heavier and an inch taller. He has legitimate size for a PG. Sure, he will get overpowered by Derek Rose, but not Muggsy Bogues. No, Parker's not a good defender but he's still better than Darren simply because he's bigger. He's also been extremely fortunate playing on perhaps the best defensive team in the last decade.

mattie
12-22-2011, 08:11 PM
Good point. I guess I left out great defense.

Collison isn't a great shooter, distributor and he's a terrible defender. Thanks for helping my case.

Edit: Obviously I'm referring to Rondo there. On top of that, Fisher is a great clutch perimeter shooter and he's a lot better on D than Collison. Part of the reason is because he's also 50lbs heavier! I'm not going to call Collison a midget, but you make your own conclusion. Fisher is also a very smart player. Parker, believe it or not, is 25lbs heavier and an inch taller. He has legitimate size for a PG. Sure, he will get overpowered by Derek Rose, but not Muggsy Bogues. No, Parker's not a good defender but he's still better than Darren simply because he's bigger. He's also been extremely fortunate playing on perhaps the best defensive team in the last decade.

Fisher is a horrible passer and a slightly above average defender. Rondo is a terrible shooter. Parker has a decent jumpshot, but can't shoot for range. He is an average defender.

BlueNGold
12-22-2011, 08:19 PM
Fisher is a horrible passer and a slightly above average defender. Rondo is a terrible shooter. Parker has a decent jumpshot, but can't shoot for range. He is an average defender.

Collison will never be able to shoot like Derek Fisher though. Fisher is a heady player as well. Anyway, Darren probably needs to model his game off of Parker and try to be a miniature version of Tony Parker. We are talking that's his ceiling.

mattie
12-22-2011, 08:20 PM
Collison is a much better passer than both Parker and Fisher... His jump shot is not quite on par with Parkers..

BlueNGold
12-22-2011, 08:25 PM
Collison is a much better passer than both Parker and Fisher... His jump shot is not quite on par with Parkers..

No. He's a much better passer than TJ Ford. At least Darren doesn't fly up into the lane with no place to dish.

In any event, Collison, even being tiny...is still a pretty good PG for not having PG skills.

mattie
12-22-2011, 08:32 PM
Once again, those responses are intended for everyone else reading the thread... obviously you can see the holes I pointed in his completely baseless theory on point guards. Obviously his last contradictory statement speaks for its self.

pacer4ever
12-22-2011, 08:34 PM
It probably doesn't help that he's 6'11

Thats not the problem the problem is like J-mac he has no lateral quickness. He isnt a very good athlete in general either imo. I think his best spot is PF but he isnt strong enough to play there yet.

BlueNGold
12-22-2011, 09:09 PM
Once again, those responses are intended for everyone else reading the thread... obviously you can see the holes I pointed in his completely baseless theory on point guards. Obviously his last contradictory statement speaks for its self.

Oh, sure. You decide what other people think, right?

Fact is, there isn't a single skill Darren has that's above average except for quickness. I might give him some props for his handle too, but most PG's can handle the ball. Most good ones have more skills...or at least they have a little size so Derek Rose doesn't have to be guarded by Paul George.

BlueNGold
12-22-2011, 09:13 PM
He's not as good as I would like either. His defense is what I dislike - his offensive game I can live with (although that isn't that great either)

He's an average starting point guard in the NBA.

This is just about right.

xIndyFan
12-22-2011, 09:17 PM
. . . Most good ones have more skills...or at least they have a little size so Derek Rose doesn't have to be guarded by Paul George.

lack of size is always going to be a problem for DC. he'd be a much better player if he was 3" taller.

i like size. so hoping for lance to learn how to play. :pray:

mildlysane
12-22-2011, 11:47 PM
That 1 inch makes all the difference :-p
Idk I think he could be a solid all around player, he seems like he's the new Prince
Had to do it.....
:twss: