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McKeyFan
12-21-2011, 09:03 AM
I'm starting a postgame thread (even though many postgame comments are in the game thread) because we have a week until the first game and a fresh thread seems like a good idea.

Tyler Hansbrough. I was not surprised. We've seen this performance before. It's all about whether he is hitting his outside shot. If he is, he is basically unstoppable, and I mean that. If he finds consistency with his shot, he will be a leading scorer in the NBA. We'll see. He was hot and cold last year. Perhaps this is the year he finds a rhythm.

My favorite play of the game was around the 3rd quarter when Tyler got the ball on the baseline about 20 feet away. I think it was Taj Gibson, a great defender, who finally realized he better get is @__ way out there and cover him. So Tyler performed a mega quick jab step, drove baseline quicker than a cat and scored an easy, uncontested layup—because getting in front of that beast means an almost guaranteed and 1. Those are your choices when Tyler Hansbrough is hot.

Lance Stephenson. He does not "run the offense." Right now we have no offense. We don't have the players to run a good offense. Lance is the only person on the team with the ability, the possibility, and the potential, of creating space and opportunities to provide high percentage shots for the team. In my opinion, his breaking out is the only mathematical possibility we have to develop a powerful offensive team. (Apart from another acquisition.)

That said, he is an experiment worth being patient with. We need to give him a long leash. We need to hope and pray he is maturing into a decent human being, as surely the precedent is there for him to be a bad one.

Some say Lance has a low Bball IQ. I disagree. I think it is quite high. (BBall IQ being defined as natural instincts regarding what works on the floor.) What he has is very poor training. Rucker Park was not the bastion of fundamentals and Cincy apparently didn't help much. Therefore, let's hope the coaching staff has the ability and passion to instill fundamental ball into Lance's thinking, and let's hope Lance is willing to learn.

Danny Granger. Okay, he takes preseason off. Not the worst sin in the world, but it's a metaphor for Danny's entire style, which is a bit irksome to me. He takes some things off at times, like defense. You know, I was a bit embarrassed for him and the Pacers that Coach K decided to bench him because his defense wasn't good enough. Another strike against him who should not be named.

Roy Hibbert. Like Hansbrough, Roy can be hot and cold. He's been cold in the preseason. He'll get hot again. But my gripe with Roy is that his hot streaks probably won't emerge when it matters, like the playoffs. Some things you can't control, but dangit, when a 7'2" guy has a wide open layup and holds the ball at his chest for Noah to smack away, that's not streaky, that's not mentally weak, that's not bad luck. That's pitiful. I've been open to trading him for a year now (as much as I love him personally, and I do), and hope TPTB actively looks for a trade when he hits his next hot streak.

David West and George Hill. Still not enough data to comment.

BillS
12-21-2011, 09:09 AM
While the data points are low, I find myself less impressed with Hill than I expected to be, and more impressed with West than I expected to be.

For David, it is probably just that it has been so long since I saw a Pacer who could make a midrange jumper, and now we have TWO of them...

Trophy
12-21-2011, 09:15 AM
I was impressed with David's outing.

A few pick n' pops I really liked. A nice one with DC which will make him a better PG.

NappyRootz
12-21-2011, 09:15 AM
Totally Agree.

I would be harsher on Hibbert than you were but I guess its only a preseason game. But WOW......what a weak performance by him. I'm hoping that West and Tyler can play together some especially in crunch time.

You are also right about our guards. Lance is the only guy at this point capable of creating off of the dribble. George will be a quality player at some point but he still has lots of work to do to get there especially on offensive end.

Hill and DC seem like high end backup PGs rather than starters on a top 4 EC playoff team to me.

Granger is a quality player but he facilitates for no one but himself and is aloof at times on both ends.........only getting into when his 3s are falling.

So in essence, I believe we are still a long way away from moving up teh EC ladder. We still have flexibility and assets that have value can be packaged. Hopefully, a top 20 player becomes available to us at some point this season.

Ownagedood
12-21-2011, 09:23 AM
I, like others, was very disappointed in Hibbert, DC and Danny this preseason... Danny may have just been taking the preseason off as mentioned, but that's still not a good attitude toward the game.. If your on the court, especially when making money, you need to put the effort out there for your team and fans.

DC and Hibbert were extremly disappointing.. Both seem very rusty and the first two games I haven't been satisfied with the style DC is playing.. He needs to develop more of a pass first attitude. I like that he has quickness and confidence to run all over the floor but sometimes he runs around too much and just needs to run a play for someone.

Hansbrough and West have been very impressive in my mind. If Tyler can consistantly play like he is right now, he will easily win the 6th man award.

Ace E.Anderson
12-21-2011, 09:26 AM
I came away from this game with a few thoughts.

1. Hansbrough is a beast..enough said
2. West looks good coming off injury, just needs to get his timing/rhythm down
3. P.George is turning the ball over A LOT due to being aggressive. If history shows us anything, that is a good sign. I'd rather have an overly aggressive George turn the ball over, than a timid George settle. He could avg between 12 and 14 points this yr.
4. Granger looks lost, but I hope it's only b/c its preseason.
5. Roy needs to get better post position, and then use it. He is almost too patient. Not to Roy:you're the tallest player in the league, if you're within 7-ft of the basket, look to make a move and score.
6. DC is NOT a starting PG. He doesn't score nor distribute well enough, he is a liability on defense, and he dribbles out the shot clock. Reminds me of Travis Best, only Travis could score better. He would be an adequate backup, but as long as he is the starter, we will struggle against the better teams.

Overall, I'm not too discouraged. We just played two games against the team with the best record from last season. If we can manage to score a little more efficiently (outside shooting anyone) then I think we can be pretty much where the consensus is....5-6th seed in the East.

DaveP63
12-21-2011, 09:38 AM
The only things that really stick out to me at this point are Hibbert being very tentative, Granger being almost invisible and the fact that if Lance has been the most consistent point guard in the pre-season you've got issues.

Tom White
12-21-2011, 09:40 AM
Tyler Hansbrough. I was not surprised......

I agree with your assessment of Hans. With the proper amount of playing time, I think we will see him improve more and more.


Lance Stephenson.

...Some say Lance has a low Bball IQ. I disagree. I think it is quite high. (BBall IQ being defined as natural instincts regarding what works on the floor.)....

Again, I generally agree with you. The exception being your definition of Bball IQ. I think instincts play a role, but I also think much of what I would call Bball IQ is learned AND retained. [/QUOTE]


Danny Granger. Okay, he takes preseason off......it's a metaphor for Danny's entire style, which is a bit irksome to me. He takes some things off at times, like defense.....Another strike against him who should not be named.

Generally agree. I'm getting more and more tired of Granger's lack of.........effort? judgement? I'm not sure exactly what I want to call it, but I'm getting to be less and less a fan of his. This is not based on this pre-season, but rather a much longer time frame.

I think what we have seen from Granger is the best we will see. After seven years, how much improvement can be expected?

The part I bolded leads me to a question/statement. Why would we want to blame JOB for Danny's lack of effort on D? Some things should simply be up to the players to take it on themselves to do the job. Coach K apparently saw what we have all seen, and what you commented on with respect to Granger "taking some things off at times, like defense".


Roy Hibbert.

I really don't know what to make of Roy. I think if he were not so darned likable, many more people on this board would be ready to cut ties with him. Like you, I hope and hope that he finally gets it all together on a consistant basis. I'm just not sure if he will. I hope so.


David West and George Hill. Still not enough data to comment.

I liked what I saw from West in his brief appearance, and expect to see more and more of his talents as time goes on.

It appears it may take Hill longer than we had hoped to get acclimated to his new team. Willing to give him the time to do just that.

Justin Tyme
12-21-2011, 09:43 AM
The disappointing duo of the game for me was Hibbert and Collison. Players at the 2 most important positions in the game of BB. Unless those 2 get their games together, it's gonna be a long long shortened season.

I'll say it again, Hibbert is not as good as Marc Gasol nor will he ever be. I truly hate watching him get the ball and try backing his defender down for a shot. I can go to the refrig, get something to drink, and come back b4 he shoots the ball. It wouldn't be so bad if this led to a good shot, especially one he can hit.

As far as I'm concerned, the Pacers don't have a PG. They have a bunch of SG in a PG size body. Unlike so many on this board, I was never an advocate of getting Collison from NOLA. He's not a PG clone of CP3 like so many thought. He was successful mostly, b/c he was in a system fitted for CP3 which made him look much better than he is. I'm of the belief that a PG is the motor that drives the engine, and a PG needs to get all of the engine parts involved in moving. Otherwise, the engine is hit and miss while sputtering. I want a PASS 1st PG who plays great "D", and can score when necessary in order to keep the opposition honest. This sure isn't a description of Collison by any means.

Winner
12-21-2011, 09:48 AM
6. DC is NOT a starting PG. He doesn't score nor distribute well enough, he is a liability on defense, and he dribbles out the shot clock. Reminds me of Travis Best, only Travis could score better. He would be an adequate backup, but as long as he is the starter, we will struggle against the better teams.



I disagree. Once he gets some players he can pass to and know they are going to score the ball, he will look much better on offense. Also, he drives well and doesn't lose control of the ball very often. He is a three point shot away from being the point guard we desperately need.

15th parallel
12-21-2011, 09:53 AM
After a long wait, I'm glad the NBA started!

While many are disappointed with the losses these preseason, I'm not really discouraged and my optimism is still high for the Pacers this season (and beyond). Since there's not much to say since this is just a non-bearing game, I'll just point out the positives on this game:

Tyler Hansbrough - such a warrior on every game, whether his game is subpar or superb. That never-say-die spirit and that go-all-out attitude might be the biggest x-factor for this team going forward. His strong will alone makes up for his shortcomings as a basketball player, and I hope he becomes a consistent midrange threat to make him a very dangerous offensive player, since he can drive and also score down low.

Lance Stephenson - while many are still not convinced, his skills are really pointing out that he is a legitimate PG. While his moves are flashy and not really as effective yet, you can see how easily he sees open teammates and how well he can deliver passes. If he can maybe try to also score, he can be a potent weapon since having a reliable scoring ability can also help him set up teammates by drawing attention on defense.

David West - he's rusty as of now but how he scores late in the game shows how he can help DG and Roy by keeping his matchup's defense honest while he's on the floor. His scoring ability on midrange can be huge to open up lanes for slashers and for our post up players. If he can be in game shape the soonest, I'm sure it will be big for the Pacers to be a top 4 team in the East.

croz24
12-21-2011, 09:54 AM
Regarding Hibbert, let's use some perspective. One, it's the preseason. Two, this will only be his 4th year, after a lockout, and centers take longer to develop. But mostly, Noah is one of, if not the best and most disruptive defensive big in the league. Name me a better man defender than Noah at the 4/5 positions. He gives EVERYONE fits...

Ozwalt72
12-21-2011, 09:58 AM
West is gonna be a heck of a player for us. I think he can play some center too, which makes me feel better about getting both him and Hansbrough 30 minutes a game.

Tyler MANsbrough - the guy has the ability to flip the switch and tear it up for stretches. Consistency is key, if he can score like this most games...he can average a freaking point a minute.

Paul George - Those things we love about him didnt go away during the lockout.

The Bad:

Paul George - I'm sorry, but his handles are BAD. I thought they needed some refining last year, but so far this year its been trash. I think you have to have a wing with some ball skills, and we don't have one in our starting lineup.

Collison - While I think his defense was improved, he wasn't able to get anything going offensively. I don't know if that's his fault or the coaching staffs.

George Hill: The coaching staff needs to figure out how to use him. Thankfully, those games didn't count.

The Ugly:

Roy Hibbert: Please show up. You're better than that.

Any other player, I wasn't able to get much of an opinion on. 66 games is still a long season, and I have a feeling we're going to get a lot better over the course of it.

BillS
12-21-2011, 10:02 AM
Why would we want to blame JOB for Danny's lack of effort on D?

JOB is responsible for Global Climate Change, the Precession of the Ecliptic, the End of the Mayan Calendar, and the Eruption of the Icelandic Volcanoes. Being responsible for Danny's lack of effort on defense seems trivially obvious in comparison.

Trophy
12-21-2011, 10:04 AM
I really hope we don't see the same old Roy, but it looked like a mirror image of most of last season.

I don't know what it'll take for him to slow down and use his size to position himself for a good shot.

He's a big guy, added some muscle and now he needs to use it and stop acting like he's nervous. Way too much dancing. Just back yourself in on the defender for a hook shot. Something he is good with given the right positioning.

I won't think too highly of it because it was preseason. :meditate:

Trader Joe
12-21-2011, 10:08 AM
Here are some of my thoughts from the other thread...


Roy, IMO, is already in his own head, which is his typical MO now. And seeing West and Hansbrough out there together and being effective couldn't have helped his shaky confidence. I'm seriously concerned about Roy moving forward. How will he respond if we end up going with West and Hans in late game situations? Yes they aren't as tall as Roy, but they are both much stronger and can hold their position in the post much better on both ends of the court.

I was very impressed with West. He seems to be extremely confident in that knee and was very active. I loved when he got the ball deep and used a quick elbow plunge into Noah's kidney to get the space he needed for the layup. That is a solid move. One that I think Hans will eventually add to his arsenal, and it would be great if he could teach Roy how to clear space like that, but unfortunately I just don't think Roy gets that. West is going to be a very good player for us this year, he looks in great shape and is clearly a confident vet out there.




Also, Paul George is intriguing the hell out of me, that past two games, if you had just given me a quick question of his "impact" without looking at the box score, I would have guessed mediocre to minimal. But yet, 17 and 10 & 14 and 6. That is NOT Brandon Rush folks. That is an aggressive player who just isn't quite on his game yet. Very intrigued by those two stat lines, if he had been on his game either of those nights we'd probably be talking about him averaging 20 ppg in the two preseason games, yet he put up decent stats and had an impact without me really taking notice. That is a very good sign IMO. Still needs to work on his damn jump shot though.

Also, to be fair to Granger, this has been his MO in the preseason for years, maybe it's a shooter finding his rhythm, I dunno, but I'm not concerned. When we last saw him, he gave us a pretty good effort against the Bulls in the playoffs when he was being blanketed by their whole defense.

Trader Joe
12-21-2011, 10:09 AM
Also, is there any doubt now why Bird wanted Rajon Rondo? Our point guard play has been pitiful. DC is, well, at this point he just looks like DC, which is to say a really good backup PG or a starter on an 8 seed. Hill is a 2 guard that really needs to play at an up tempo style, which is how San Antonio played when he was on the court. And Lance, while the talent might be there, is so raw that it is painful to watch him at times. Then there's Price, who honestly impressed the hell out of me in the 2 minutes or he got on the court last night.

We NEED a quality PG, if Rondo or one of the big name PGs becomes available again, we need to be right at the front of the line.

I will say Hill, had a couple passes that weren't caught that probably were easy buckets, so maybe that will change.

Sollozzo
12-21-2011, 10:13 AM
I don't have a problem with Granger cruising through the preseason. Heck, Reggie would cruise through the regular season in the 90's when our team was talented and could easily beat inferior teams.

Granger will be 29 at the end of this season. He's not exactly a "young" dude anymore. He knows it's a condensed season and wants to make sure he has plenty of energy for it, so he's not going to go all out in a preseason game.

McKeyFan
12-21-2011, 10:15 AM
Why would we want to blame JOB for Danny's lack of effort on D?

It's simple.

Granger's emergence as a serious NBA player coincided with JOB becoming coach. JOB's emphasis was always offense, 3 point shooting, and a fast pace. He gave lip service to defense but his actions betrayed the rhetoric. He considered Troy Murphy a great player.

This was preached to Granger every day for many years. It clearly had an effect.

Trader Joe
12-21-2011, 10:16 AM
I disagree. Once he gets some players he can pass to and know they are going to score the ball, he will look much better on offense. Also, he drives well and doesn't lose control of the ball very often. He is a three point shot away from being the point guard we desperately need.

Is this really an excuse anymore? Granger, Hansbrough, West, George Hill.... all these guys have shown they can score in a variety of ways.

D-BONE
12-21-2011, 10:21 AM
The disappointing duo of the game for me was Hibbert and Collison. Players at the 2 most important positions in the game of BB. Unless those 2 get their games together, it's gonna be a long long shortened season.



Long way to go for this to be a trend, but yes, yes, and yes to your point - 2 essential position where we have to establish more quality an consistency. We may end up with barely mediocre. Hoping for major strides from these two, otherwise it's going to be a struggle.

I'd also like to throw DG into discussion here even though his position is far from essential compared to C/PG. Where is the effort/passion/commitment? This guy was our captain last year and he was already fading. The guy should be at least an above average defender, yet if he doesn't impact the game by scoring, he's is not contributing anyplace else. That has to change.

McKeyFan
12-21-2011, 10:22 AM
a PG needs to get all of the engine parts involved in moving. Otherwise, the engine is hit and miss while sputtering. I want a PASS 1st PG who plays great "D", and can score when necessary in order to keep the opposition honest. This sure isn't a description of Collison by any means.
I think Lance provides everything you are asking for . . . except for great D. Nevertheless, he can provide decent defense because of his height and length.

pacergod2
12-21-2011, 10:23 AM
JT, absolutely agree on the Collison points. The one thing about it though, is that we got great value in that trade. I think Collison is a backup PG. I've thought that since we have had him. He can be a hell of a change of pace PG coming in for spot minutes.

We match up poorly with the Bulls. Their best two aspects are their front court toughness and DRose. Our weakest aspects are front court toughness and terrible PG play.

I think we are going to struggle with giving guys enough playing time to make them happy. It could be a bad recipe for the locker room this year. Hill should start, but won't. Hansborough won't start, but I think West might be the better fit with Collison, for now.

Again, we have some easier early games, although on the road. I hope we win a few of those games and get our confidence and chemistry going. That will be the key to our season is how do we do getting out of the gate.

McKeyFan
12-21-2011, 10:24 AM
Roy, IMO, is already in his own head, which is his typical MO now. And seeing West and Hansbrough out there together and being effective couldn't have helped his shaky confidence. I'm seriously concerned about Roy moving forward. How will he respond if we end up going with West and Hans in late game situations?

Roy better be used to the idea of not being on the court at the end of games. If it's not West and Hansbrough, it will be Foster.

Also, Paul George is intriguing the hell out of me,
There was one play when West (I think) lobbed a pass to Paul George under the basket for a nice smooth score. I swear I thought it was Hibbert. PG is so tall he might be able to play some frontcourt minutes.

FlavaDave
12-21-2011, 10:26 AM
I really liked that the Pacers went toe to toe with the Bulls in rebounding. I also liked how often they were able to get to the line.

Trader Joe
12-21-2011, 10:29 AM
I really liked that the Pacers went toe to toe with the Bulls in rebounding. I also liked how often they were able to get to the line.

This is a big point that no one has mentioned! That is the biggest team positive. The Bulls were the best rebounding team in the NBA last year and we held our own. Mark Boyle tweeted about this very thing.

Even Roy did a decent job on the boards. 8 rebounds. That was easily our strongest team suit.

Hicks
12-21-2011, 10:30 AM
I worry that some of you are drawing conclusions after two preseason games, after a lockout, with a new staff, against a team that plays great D, won 62 games last year, obviously has the same staff, and the roster is basically the same other than IMPROVING the 2-guard spot. Some pretty strong statements floating around.

Hicks
12-21-2011, 10:41 AM
One takeaway I had was our tentativeness. It seemed like there were a lot of times when we would make a pass, be in a position to either shoot or attempt to score, but the player would hesitate because the first thing he would do is look for another pass. That's a big factor, too.

I like the theory of preaching that to this team because if they can figure things out and get comfortable with making those extra passes it will make the offense much more potent, but the problem is that until or unless that happens, it swings the other way and makes the offense even worse.

Let's see how this develops as we move along and get more reps while playing together against some less than stellar defenses. I think this might get a lot better.

Last thing I'll mention, too, is that I think some of them are still getting in full NBA shape. I was noticing that misses were coming up short what felt like quite a bit. Sometimes pretty flat, too. This comes to mind with Roy and Hill in particular.

Since86
12-21-2011, 10:47 AM
A lot of these problems can be traced back to the lockout. The early easy schedule is a huge blessing.

Freddie fan
12-21-2011, 11:02 AM
Hansbrough and West have been very impressive in my mind. If Tyler can consistantly play like he is right now, he will easily win the 6th man award.

If Hansbrough keeps playing like he did in the two preseason games, he will be the team's best player, right? I will be very interested to see if he can develop consistency in playing at close to this level, and, if he does, how well the Pacers will do in getting him enough minutes.

Jon Theodore
12-21-2011, 11:47 AM
If Lance can play shooting guard, that would solve a lot of our problems. As others have said, we need a wing player who can dribble and right now it's not Granger or Paul George. Collison, Stephenson, Granger, David West, Hibbert is a line-up i'd like to see get some minutes. That line-up could potentially (Lance still needs time) be the starting line up, with George and Hansbrough playing heavy minutes off the bench.

As one of Tylers biggest supporters, I am fine with him off the bench...he is one of the few players who isn't going to get his feelings hurt over it and also is going to play the same regardless. I think he deserves to start, but that is not really the issue. We have two starting caliber power forwards, not enough minutes to go around. I guess having Tyler destroy other teams second unit isn't the worst thing in the world :-)

Ozwalt72
12-21-2011, 11:49 AM
One takeaway I had was our tentativeness. It seemed like there were a lot of times when we would make a pass, be in a position to either shoot or attempt to score, but the player would hesitate because the first thing he would do is look for another pass. That's a big factor, too.


And most the time they'd toss up a shot after the hesitation, and miss. Just need to find our rhythm offensively I think.

pacergod2
12-21-2011, 11:50 AM
If Hansbrough keeps playing like he did in the two preseason games, he will be the team's best player, right? I will be very interested to see if he can develop consistency in playing at close to this level, and, if he does, how well the Pacers will do in getting him enough minutes.

Another thing to consider is that Hansborough's motor and strength are his greatest strengths. His motor will show up a lot more in preseason games, so let's not expect him to be a 20 and 10 guy all year.

Jon Theodore
12-21-2011, 11:50 AM
If Hansbrough keeps playing like he did in the two preseason games, he will be the team's best player, right? I will be very interested to see if he can develop consistency in playing at close to this level, and, if he does, how well the Pacers will do in getting him enough minutes.

Hansbrough will get his minutes regardless if he starts or not.

90'sNBARocked
12-21-2011, 11:57 AM
I think Bird made it quite evident in this brief off season , where the team needs upgrades

To me clearly, he thinks PG and Center

I think the rumors that we were after Rondo and Gasol/Nene prove this

Just my speculation but I feel bird thinks Roy and DC are good back ups

90'sNBARocked
12-21-2011, 12:00 PM
This is a big point that no one has mentioned! That is the biggest team positive. The Bulls were the best rebounding team in the NBA last year and we held our own. Mark Boyle tweeted about this very thing.

Even Roy did a decent job on the boards. 8 rebounds. That was easily our strongest team suit.

Agreed but how much of that can be attributed to our poor shooting percentage, and extra chances at rebounds?

Justin Tyme
12-21-2011, 12:27 PM
I think Lance provides everything you are asking for . . . except for great D. Nevertheless, he can provide decent defense because of his height and length.


A BIG PG has been on my X-mas list for years. I'm "really hoping" Lance can get the PT to figure out and hone his game as a PG. I would absolutely be elated to say the least. I'm just tired of 6' and under PG's who in reality are SG's.

vnzla81
12-21-2011, 12:34 PM
I was really hoping for Hill to play better so we could send DC to the bench, I guess we are gonna have to wait.

Hicks
12-21-2011, 12:56 PM
I think Bird made it quite evident in this brief off season , where the team needs upgrades

To me clearly, he thinks PG and Center

I think the rumors that we were after Rondo and Gasol/Nene prove this

Just my speculation but I feel bird thinks Roy and DC are good back ups

Regarding the Gasol rumors, we know now that was ******** spun by some person or another because Herb Simon doesn't allow Bird to go after restricted free agents, which Gasol was.

And Nene was going to be brought in as our starting PF.

DonSwanson
12-21-2011, 12:59 PM
It's simple.

Granger's emergence as a serious NBA player coincided with JOB becoming coach. JOB's emphasis was always offense, 3 point shooting, and a fast pace. He gave lip service to defense but his actions betrayed the rhetoric. He considered Troy Murphy a great player.

This was preached to Granger every day for many years. It clearly had an effect.

I'm not much in the mood to relitigate Jim O'Brien, but I am curious to see how long this crutch will last. I find it remarkable that a coach can be accused of not giving proper emphasis to defense when the actual defensive outcomes of all of his teams betray that narrative--in his 6 full seasons as an NBA coach no matter the personnel or adversity, all of his teams finished top 15 in FG defense... And I have a hard time believing that all of this somehow happened in spite of him or that it was just a product of dumb luck (I'm one who believes that defense is the one area where coaches can make the biggest difference, which is also why I think a team like Washington would benefit from a coaching change since that team has not defended well under Flip Saunders--but to be fair most young teams will struggle on D regardless of who is coaching). In fact, if you look at the numbers under Carlisle after the 2006-07 trade deadline vs O'Brien's first full season which I outlined a year ago, we improved a full point defensively under O'Brien.... I think that on a team that was lacking in offensive options he sometimes made the (unpopular) trade-off of setting up a guy in Murphy who was 3rd in the NBA in effective field goal % so that we wouldn't completely suck on that end of the floor--but I've never been one to read into this that we had a coach who didn't place value and time on defense--just a coach lacking in good options (no reliably efficient big man, PG or top 40 talent) whether you agreed with his choices or not and certainly most here disagreed with them. Fine, let's move on.

Bottom line--If Danny Granger still needs cover from a former coach, then it's time to consider moving on from Danny Granger. We need to hold current players responsible, not former coaches.

vnzla81
12-21-2011, 01:01 PM
http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2011/12/21/a-rocky-start-for-the-pacers/



A rocky start for the Pacers

1:39 AM, Dec. 21, 2011 | Written by Mike Wells | 2Comments
AAAYes, the Pacers have been practicing together for less than two weeks.

Yes, they played the Chicago Bulls, the team with the best regular-season record last season, in their two preseason games.

But no, that doesn’t excuse some of the problems they need to overcome.

My Twitter timeline was filling up with people complaining about the outcome of Tuesday’s game against the Bulls.

Fans should be looking at the big picture of things, not the final score at the United Center (preseason records don’t carry over to the regular season unless the NBA changed the rules without notifying the media).

It was a matter of seeing how well the Pacers moved the ball on offense, executed the defensive schemes and how the new players blended in the returning players.

“We have to get tougher defensively and we have to get tougher offensively,” Vogel said. “We’re not executing…We’ve got to be tougher offensively in terms of executing our stuff and not letting some pressure defense take us out of what we’re trying to do.”

Tyler Hansbrough has clearly been the team’s best player so far in camp. He’s been on a mission, totaling 43 points and 24 rebounds in the two games against the Bulls.

“Tyler is going to have success against anybody he plays,” Vogel said. “I don’t think it’s the Bulls. He’s a big part of what we’re doing. He’s going to play a lot.”

David West obviously looked rusty (eight points on 4-of-8 shooting in 15 minutes) in his first game since March. But you saw flashes of how he’s going to help the Pacers on both ends of the court.

“It felt alright,” West said. “This has literally been my first six or seven days of basketball in nine months. I’m trying to learn a whole lot. But physically I felt okay.”

Danny Granger and Roy Hibbert have struggled so far.

Granger, who was the focal point of the offense the past four years, has a history of not shooting well in the preseason. That’s the case again this season, but he’s not shooting well while also taking bad shots (9-of-28) in the offense. It doesn’t help that Granger let’s his offensive play dictate what else he does on the court.

Hibbert is still having to catch the ball too far away from the basket (Chicago’s Joakim Noah does a heck of a job fronting Hibbert and also pushing him out of his comfort zone in the post). It wouldn’t be surprising if Vogel goes with Hansbrough at power forward and West at center at times during games when Hibbert struggles.

The Pacers are no longer a team where one or two players do the bulk of the scoring.

This is a team where point production should be pretty balanced. They’ve got about six players who can lead them in scoring on any given night.

The Pacers have the pieces to make a decent jump in the Eastern Conference this season.

But in order to do that, though, players will have to make sacrifices in the scoring department in order for them to have success. No more forcing shots because you’re not getting what you believe is enough touches in the offense. The shots will be there if they move the ball and execute the offensive scheme.

Are these fixable problems for the Pacers? Very much so.

Will it take time? Yes, but time is not on the Pacers’ side. They can’t afford to get off to a slow start, especially since their first five games are very winnable.

Twitter.com/MikeWellsNBA

Sookie
12-21-2011, 01:01 PM
1. I wouldn't give up on Roy yet. He's a really tall guy with a lot of skills. He just needs to be comfortable in his body.

2. Paul George really does have the potential to be something special. I like that he's going to the boards more. And I've found him to be more aggressive..and funny thing, I thought his shot had been off, but he shot 40% from three in the preseason and 44% field goals..which isn't amazing, but I thought it was worse. And then he's our team's best defender.

I think he just needs to practice on his shot. He's got a pretty shot, he just needs to keep shooting until he's comfortable. His ball handling is already pretty good, but he needs to tighten that up too. But this kid...

IndyPacer
12-21-2011, 01:10 PM
Too early for me. I want to see how Hibbert plays alongside West after West has adjusted to his new team. I think he can help Roy. It's admittedly awful to watch Hibbert right now, though.

Justin Tyme
12-21-2011, 01:14 PM
JT, absolutely agree on the Collison points. The one thing about it though, is that we got great value in that trade. I think Collison is a backup PG. I've thought that since we have had him. He can be a hell of a change of pace PG coming in for spot minutes.

We match up poorly with the Bulls. Their best two aspects are their front court toughness and DRose. Our weakest aspects are front court toughness and terrible PG play.

I think we are going to struggle with giving guys enough playing time to make them happy. It could be a bad recipe for the locker room this year. Hill should start, but won't. Hansborough won't start, but I think West might be the better fit with Collison, for now.

Again, we have some easier early games, although on the road. I hope we win a few of those games and get our confidence and chemistry going. That will be the key to our season is how do we do getting out of the gate.



I truly believe we will match up far better with the Bulls in regards to toughness this season. They haven't had to deal with JP or Lou yet. I realize JP and Lou are b/u b/u, but they are there to be used for just this purpose... their toughness.

Is it just me or has anyone else seen what they feel is Boozer trying to hurt Hans? I'm more in tune to watching it now after Hans got his bell rung in the playoffs. I thought I noticed last night Boozer going after Hans. I expect to take in kind what we dish out, but not intentionally trying to hurt Hans in the head though. It might just be me seeing what I think is there or nothing there at all. I must admit the fear of Hans getting hurt again really bothers me.

pacer4ever
12-21-2011, 01:15 PM
I really liked that the Pacers went toe to toe with the Bulls in rebounding. I also liked how often they were able to get to the line.

well when you shoot close to 33% you are gonna get a lot of rebounds.

Also wasn't a fan of the Hill trade I think he was just a product of the Pop system he is a decent role player but I had players in both rounds I would of took instead of George Hill.

speakout4
12-21-2011, 01:22 PM
We didn't go after Mayo for nothing. We need a Reggie type SG.

Hicks
12-21-2011, 01:22 PM
well when you shoot close to 33% you are gonna get a lot of rebounds.

Also wasn't a fan of the Hill trade I think he was just a product of the Pop system he is a decent role player but I had players in both rounds I would of took instead of George Hill.

But that goes both ways, and it's usually easier to get defensive rebounds than offense rebounds, suggesting our FG% should have padded the Bulls' rebounding total more than ours.

ThatPacerFan
12-21-2011, 01:28 PM
"It doesn’t help that Granger let’s his offensive play dictate what else he does on the court."

This is very true. When Granger's offense is not succeeding, he never tries to do anything else to make up for his mediocre play. I would like to see him contribute on the defensive side of the floor and/or get his teammates involved on the offensive end. You know, those small intangibles that don't show up on the stat-sheet and help a team win. He's certainly capable of impacting the game in other ways besides scoring.

billbradley
12-21-2011, 01:33 PM
One thing is for sure. Rip fits in very good with Bulls. So good it made me cringe.

Trophy
12-21-2011, 01:56 PM
All I hope for in these few days, these guys can create some chemistry.

These preseason games looked to be a learning tool.

The fortunate part is the fairly easy opening to the season for the guys to gel better.

So like Hicks said, I'm not going to draw conclusions based on preseason.

Since86
12-21-2011, 02:02 PM
One thing is for sure. Rip fits in very good with Bulls. So good it made me cringe.

It makes them scary good against the Pacers, but it probably hurts them with the Heat.

31andonly
12-21-2011, 02:25 PM
OT: Has anybody watched the highlights on espn.com? What a joke...it's all about Rose, Hamilton and the Bulls.

Unclebuck
12-21-2011, 02:27 PM
I've posted very little about the two preseason games because nothing I have seen has made me re-consider any of my opinions. Tyler has improved, but I expected that. Collision seems about the same to me, he's OK, but he isn't the difference maker we need IMO. Roy looks the same as last year. Granger never plays well in the preseason season. Geroge Hill has not looked good at all, but he needs time . Wells looked OK last night, but he needs time. Paul George looks better, but I still expect more.

Our defense isn't as physical and agressive as it needs to be, and our offense needs to work the ball inside more and the players need to trust the offense and each other.

No conclusions drawn though

Scot Pollard
12-21-2011, 02:48 PM
I think everyone is just looking to stir up topics.

People on here are beginning to think too much into these games.

Chill out. I know everyone wants to stir things up worth discussing, but there's no reason to flip out and start judging players based on the way they played in preseason.

Sparhawk
12-21-2011, 02:53 PM
OT: Has anybody watched the highlights on espn.com? What a joke...it's all about Rose, Hamilton and the Bulls.

This shouldn't surprise anyone. ESPN has become a joke. They just focus on big markets anymore.

DrFife
12-21-2011, 03:05 PM
Wells looked OK last night, but he needs time.

Don't hold your breath. By this time, Mike Wells is what he is. :p

Hicks
12-21-2011, 03:55 PM
Wells looked OK last night, but he needs time.

:laugh:

Tom White
12-21-2011, 04:26 PM
This shouldn't surprise anyone. ESPN has become a joke. They just focus on big markets anymore.

Well, it doesn't hurt that Chicago has the reigning MVP, had the best regular season record last year, and one more thing.....

They won the game. The losing team is not going to get the same coverage.

tadscout
12-21-2011, 04:35 PM
Well, it doesn't hurt that Chicago has the reigning MVP, had the best regular season record last year, and one more thing.....

They won the game. The losing team is not going to get the same coverage.

I've seen us Win and get less highlights than the likes of the Lakers, or heck Cleveland while Lebron was there.

BPump33
12-22-2011, 10:03 AM
The one thing I learned from this game is, NBA fans (no matter the team) love El Pacero. Walking around with the guy was like being on an episode of Entourage. :D

90'sNBARocked
12-22-2011, 10:14 AM
The one thing I learned from this game is, NBA fans (no matter the team) love El Pacero. Walking around with the guy was like being on an episode of Entourage. :D

Sweet

El Pacero, unless your rich bro, start marketing yourself

If Clipper Darrel can get paid, so can the great "El Pacero" Womens wrestling champ :)

Hicks
12-22-2011, 11:15 AM
I rewatched the game last night just to see what Roy did whenever he was on the floor. I counted a whopping two times he let himself get physically abused. One where Boozer backed him right down for an easy score in the first half, then once where Noah pushed him around to where he didn't want to be.

The rest of the game (read: the vast majority of plays involving Roy), he was either holding his ground, moving someone out of HIS way a bit, or the play didn't call for that kind of physicality. Typically either he held his own or the play didn't require him to be locked in with anyone.

My biggest takeaway was that he IS stronger/heavier than last season, and what truly gets him into trouble is when he doesn't adequately anticipate or time his next move. When he does, Roy gets good leverage and now has better size/strength to use that leverage. But when he doesn't, his lack of leverage or balance still gets him into trouble.

Side tangent: If we had 3s/2s/1s that could see and/or pass better, Roy easily could have had 8 more points last night off of rolls and cuts. He'd be doing the right thing but teammates either couldn't find him or wouldn't look for him. He also missed a few attempts that he just as easily could have made; typical basketball shots that sometimes you make and sometimes you don't.

So my conclusion, if anything, is that I think he will continue to improve with experience, but like any NBA player sometimes you win sometimes you lose, even during any given possession.

I think the people giving up and throwing their arms in the air over Roy are nuts. He's fine. I think his rough spots look SO rough that they dominate people's memory banks (leaving little space remaining for everything else) and really skew their overall perception of Roy.

glazedham42
12-22-2011, 11:31 AM
I think Roy needs to develop a nice spin move when he is posting up. The hook shot is a great go to move. But when stronger, smarter defenders like Noah are pushing back against him Roy can't back them down. Usually, because Noah is illegally handchecking him. In any case, when Noah is at a 45 degree angle leaning into Roy's back he needs a quick spin move. That will stop Noah from committing to leaning on him that hard. Shaq was always great at that. Feeling the defender and then either going to the baby hook, or using their weight against them and going to the spin move. Hakeem did it better than anyone.

danman
12-22-2011, 11:53 AM
One thing is for sure. Rip fits in very good with Bulls. So good it made me cringe.

Yes. Might end up being the most underrated off season signing.

I'm withholding judgment on most things. Pacers are ragged right now, Bulls are not... A superstar PG does confer benefits. Collison is taking too much flak for a tough matchup. Let's talk again 10 games in.

Tyler continues to impress. Dude has no fear. Wish he could jump, but he and West have good ground bound skills.

Bulls have some arrogant announcers for sure. But with that team, I guess there's reason for being cocky.

BillS
12-22-2011, 12:08 PM
My biggest takeaway was that he IS stronger/heavier than last season, and what truly gets him into trouble is when he doesn't adequately anticipate or time his next move. When he does, Roy gets good leverage and now has better size/strength to use that leverage. But when he doesn't, his lack of leverage or balance still gets him into trouble.

Side tangent: If we had 3s/2s/1s that could see and/or pass better, Roy easily could have had 8 more points last night off of rolls and cuts. He'd be doing the right thing but teammates either couldn't find him or wouldn't look for him. He also missed a few attempts that he just as easily could have made; typical basketball shots that sometimes you make and sometimes you don't.

I still see Roy have to think too much, meaning if players got the ball to him sooner he would still be hesitating long enough for the defense to at least start to adjust. If he doesn't start getting into some of his moves as soon as the ball hits his hands he's never going to get the easy shots he should be getting.

I definitely see an improvement in him physically, though. He isn't getting manhandled out of his position like last year.

Hicks
12-22-2011, 12:27 PM
I still see Roy have to think too much, meaning if players got the ball to him sooner he would still be hesitating long enough for the defense to at least start to adjust. If he doesn't start getting into some of his moves as soon as the ball hits his hands he's never going to get the easy shots he should be getting.

I definitely see an improvement in him physically, though. He isn't getting manhandled out of his position like last year.

I specifically said off of rolls and cuts; I'm not talking about quicker post ups or getting him the ball out at the high post more quickly. I mean plays where he literally had an open lane to the hoop, had his hands up for a pass, was ALREADY moving to the hoop, and had he gotten the ball on time he would have had a dunk in about 1 second. He was already on the move for it and no one would have been in position to stop him.

owl
12-22-2011, 12:37 PM
Roy is a back to the basket player. I wish he would face up and shoot a bank shot ala Duncan. Or drive. Or pass.

BPump33
12-22-2011, 12:39 PM
Roy is a back to the basket player. I wish he would face up and shoot a bank shot ala Duncan. Or drive. Or pass.

He hit a face up bank shot during Fan Jam. Some of us in Area55 immediately started talking among ourselves about Duncan. It was pretty.

vnzla81
12-22-2011, 12:44 PM
I still see Roy have to think too much, meaning if players got the ball to him sooner he would still be hesitating long enough for the defense to at least start to adjust. If he doesn't start getting into some of his moves as soon as the ball hits his hands he's never going to get the easy shots he should be getting.

I definitely see an improvement in him physically, though. He isn't getting manhandled out of his position like last year.

What game was that? Roy was even getting abused by Boozer, yeah ok it was A PRESEASON GAME but still, he did not look good.

tadscout
12-22-2011, 12:45 PM
I'd like to point out we just brought in one the best big man coaches in basketball in Boylen, and Roy has had less than 2 weeks to work with him!

I agree with Hicks -- I think everyone is jumping the gun and overreacting.

BillS
12-22-2011, 12:49 PM
What game was that? Roy was even getting abused by Boozer, yeah ok it was A PRESEASON GAME but still, he did not look good.

Last year he was moved out of position on offense pretty much every single play of every game with a defender who came anywhere close to valid size for a center.

I didn't mean Roy was NEVER moved out of position, just that it was nowhere near as bad as it was last year.

tadscout
12-22-2011, 12:50 PM
What game was that? Roy was even getting abused by Boozer, yeah ok it was A PRESEASON GAME but still, he did not look good.

Like Hicks said, that was ONE play... Roy was also getting double (sometimes triple) teamed. A player isn't getting manhandled if a defense constantly collapses on you (actually a sign of respect - seems the Bulls respect Roy's skills more than some here do).

Give the team time to gel, and let Boylen and Shaw get more time in with our players. If defenses continue to collapse like that, our players will know better how to react, and take advantage of it.

Hicks
12-22-2011, 12:57 PM
What game was that? Roy was even getting abused by Boozer, yeah ok it was A PRESEASON GAME but still, he did not look good.

That was only one play. I just addressed this point.

vnzla81
12-22-2011, 12:57 PM
Last year he was moved out of position on offense pretty much every single play of every game with a defender who came anywhere close to valid size for a center.

I didn't mean Roy was NEVER moved out of position, just that it was nowhere near as bad as it was last year.

Yeah is not near as bad but is still bad :laugh: let's hope it get's better, one thing I noticed during this two games is that he is really forcing the shots instead of passing the ball and reposition himself.

BillS
12-22-2011, 01:02 PM
Yeah is not near as bad but is still bad :laugh: let's hope it get's better, one thing I noticed during this two games is that he is really forcing the shots instead of passing the ball and reposition himself.

I actually don't see forcing some shots (especially in preseason) as a completely bad thing considering I think he fiddles around too long. I'd like to see him try to get some shots up quickly that might look/feel forced until he gets better used to positioning faster.

If it continues all season, sure, that will be frustrating as well, but in the past he would pass out and try to reposition just to be in the same bad spot when (or better if) the ball got back to him.

It isn't like he suddenly became a solidly instinctive post player, it's just that I'm at least seeing something different. You can't change anything by doing everything the same way.

BillS
12-22-2011, 01:05 PM
I actually don't see forcing some shots (especially in preseason) as a completely bad thing considering I think he fiddles around too long. I'd like to see him try to get some shots up quickly that might look/feel forced until he gets better used to positioning faster.

I also thinks he needs to test his new body against opponents for a bit.

The Sleeze
12-22-2011, 01:06 PM
...I think the people giving up and throwing their arms in the air over Roy are nuts. He's fine. I think his rough spots look SO rough that they dominate people's memory banks (leaving little space remaining for everything else) and really skew their overall perception of Roy.

I believe the rest is clogged with Malted hops and Bong resin.

PGisthefuture
12-22-2011, 01:37 PM
Here's my assumption of these two meaningless preseason games :) :

Darren Collison: I think having David West will do wonders for his game. I think we'll see more improvements from him it is preseason after all.

Paul George: I like how he is being more aggressive and I think he will get more aggressive as the season goes on.

Danny Granger: If you go look at his career stats in preseason they have never been impressive. He did basically carry this team in the playoffs, so don't write him off so quickly. He has said he has worked on his post-game a little bit, we'll see if that's true or not.

Tyler Hansbrough: Yeah, he did put up very nice numbers and I think he will continue to do so. I could see him winning 6th man of the year. Hopefully coming off the bench doesn't affect him.

Roy Hibbert: Joakim Noah is one of the top defensive centers in the league, if not the toughest, so I don't think we should assume Roy hasn't improved at all.

David West: I never knew how strong he was, he held his ground when Noah backed him down. He seemed to have no trouble playing against the Bulls' big men. I can't wait to see what he and Collison can do with time.

George Hill: I think it will take him awhile to adjust to being on a team where he doesn't have to be a follower instead of a leader. He's used to having Tim Duncan and other veterans to tell him what to do I think. He should improve once the team creates more chemistry.

Lance Stephenson: I think he will get a noticeable improvement in minutes. I remember last year in summer league people were comparing him to Tyreke Evans, if he can be anywhere close to Tyreke I will be more than happy.