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View Full Version : Preseason Game #1 says we need West or something like him



McKeyFan
12-17-2011, 04:03 PM
The first preseason game showed some slight positives here and there. Collison had a good first quarter, Lance looked more comfortable, Tyler showed up big, Roy had some moments, and Paul George looks like he could become a double double threat regularly.

But none of that looks like enough to take us to the next level.

We need a go to scorer. We've needed one for quite some time. Granger isn't quite the guy, or at least he's not enough by himself.

For this reason, I am really glad we picked up David West. For this reason I'm glad we got him over Nene, if it was an either/or option. For this reason, I wish we had a Jamaal Crawford type as well, but I would choose West if it was an either/or.

I have no idea if West will be the piece we need to pull off an offense at the next level. I think he could. I hope he can. I will be watching with baited breath.

But there is no doubt that this is our biggest need. Our defense was pretty good last year. It's our offense that has needed an injection of talent. Let's see what happens. Go Pacers.

imawhat
12-17-2011, 04:11 PM
We need a shot creator, no doubt, but I still think our biggest need is someone that can get easy buckets for others when defenses clamp down, like last night.

You can bring in one guy who gets shots or you can bring in a guy that gets shots for four others.

Infinite MAN_force
12-17-2011, 04:15 PM
I've been saying for sometime that our offense was the big issue. West was the right choice because he is going to improve our offense immensely. Not just by scoring himself, but by making Granger, Collison, and Hibbert's jobs easier.

I don't think Nene would have nearly the impact. I'm glad it shook out the way it did.

troyc11a
12-17-2011, 04:49 PM
I dont understand how you bring West in to the equation here. Tyler was arguably the best player on the court for the Pacers last night. 19/11? How is West going to improve on that? If anything, pre-season game #1 just showed us that we improved a position that didnt need improving.
I am not against the West signing, but we need to be cautious about taking too much from last nights game.

troyc11a
12-17-2011, 04:51 PM
We need a shot creator, no doubt, but I still think our biggest need is someone that can get easy buckets for others when defenses clamp down, like last night.

You can bring in one guy who gets shots or you can bring in a guy that gets shots for four others.

Good idea! I would trade Granger for either!!!!! He killed the offense las night by jacking up so many quick jumpers. Slick was really pointing that out on the radio.

Gold
12-17-2011, 04:58 PM
I dont understand how you bring West in to the equation here. Tyler was arguably the best player on the court for the Pacers last night. 19/11? How is West going to improve on that? If anything, pre-season game #1 just showed us that we improved a position that didnt need improving.
I am not against the West signing, but we need to be cautious about taking too much from last nights game.

This would make more sense if once we plugged West in, Tyler could no longer play.

IndySDExport
12-17-2011, 05:01 PM
I dont understand how you bring West in to the equation here. Tyler was arguably the best player on the court for the Pacers last night. 19/11? How is West going to improve on that? If anything, pre-season game #1 just showed us that we improved a position that didnt need improving.
I am not against the West signing, but we need to be cautious about taking too much from last nights game.

West can improve upon it by making the others around him better. Roy will be more free in the post with West. I think Tyler is better suited to carry the bench and cause havoc. Its pretty clear that West and Tyler will fill out the PF spot nicely for the Pacers though.

xIndyFan
12-17-2011, 05:18 PM
west will be a nice addition. tyler looks improved. danny will be danny. jeff will be jeff. DC looked better. hill looked bad, but he is a known quality, so should be ok as the season goes. all of that is good and should help the pacers be a playoff team.

but the real thing that determines whether the pacers can go to the next level is still paul george. and to a lesser extent lance stephenson. the pacers will be a player if and when paul george becomes the pacers best player. he looked like he could be that. but that is the thing that matters most about this season. how quickly paul [and lance] become the players they can be.

the rest of the team gives a good supporting cast. quality guys that can play. that can win some games. but the guy that enables the pacers to beat teams like chicago is paul. he needs to score and force teams to adjust their defense to deal with him. to use his size to shoot over guys. force the double team. to be the man.

when that happens, the pacers will be going to a new level. until that happens, the pacers will be a playoff team with maybe a chance to get ot the 2nd round.

vnzla81
12-17-2011, 05:38 PM
We need a shot creator either a the 2 or a the 3 spot, the power forward position is fine with West/Tyler, if I was the Pacers I'll be calling GS to see if they want to move Monta, there are only few free agents that we could sign but I don't think they have any interest in signing with the Pacers and the pacers don't have any interest in signing them either.

sportfireman
12-17-2011, 06:17 PM
I think Lance will surprise many and become the break defenses down, shot creator rhat you are asking for.

BlueNGold
12-17-2011, 06:40 PM
Anytime you add a guy like David West, it has to help your offense. But I don't consider him to be a creator. At least not much more than Danny. Also, the fact West is a much better offensive player than Nene doesn't mean West helps your offense more than the addition of Nene.

With Nene, Foster isn't going to see the floor much. As much as I like Jeff, he cannot post up or shoot anywhere on the floor. Teams pack the paint and don't even need to guard him. So, it really disrupts our offense when Jeff is on the floor. Also, Jeff, while a good rebounder is no longer a great one...and I have a feeling his D is slipping a bit.

As it stands, we will see Jeff a lot on the floor...probably with Tyler. Those are two good backup bigs, but it could be better. Our offense will not be as smooth or effective with only 4 threats on the floor....and that's why Nene was the #1 target. We just didn't want to lay out the cash. Maybe for good reason, but I disagree that West is better for us.

Winner
12-17-2011, 06:48 PM
We need a shot creator, no doubt, but I still think our biggest need is someone that can get easy buckets for others when defenses clamp down, like last night.

You can bring in one guy who gets shots or you can bring in a guy that gets shots for four others.

And you think Darren Collison isn't that guy? If He can get back to the level he was at on the Hornets we might have an all-star on our hands.

troyc11a
12-17-2011, 08:03 PM
This would make more sense if once we plugged West in, Tyler could no longer play.

I was making my point in response to the thread being based on last nights game. West will certainly help in the long run. We just shouldnt take too much from the first pre-season game which follows a long lockout.
And, it doesnt make a whole lot of sense to point the blame on the position which was played by our best player (in that game). If we are going to assign blame for the loss. It should go directly to Granger not Tyler.

troyc11a
12-17-2011, 08:05 PM
Anytime you add a guy like David West, it has to help your offense. But I don't consider him to be a creator. At least not much more than Danny. Also, the fact West is a much better offensive player than Nene doesn't mean West helps your offense more than the addition of Nene.

With Nene, Foster isn't going to see the floor much. As much as I like Jeff, he cannot post up or shoot anywhere on the floor. Teams pack the paint and don't even need to guard him. So, it really disrupts our offense when Jeff is on the floor. Also, Jeff, while a good rebounder is no longer a great one...and I have a feeling his D is slipping a bit.

As it stands, we will see Jeff a lot on the floor...probably with Tyler. Those are two good backup bigs, but it could be better. Our offense will not be as smooth or effective with only 4 threats on the floor....and that's why Nene was the #1 target. We just didn't want to lay out the cash. Maybe for good reason, but I disagree that West is better for us.

Tyler creates his shot better than West. DWest is a catch and shoot guy. His offense is dependent upon someone else creating his shot for him. Do we have that kind of player? The only guy who takes the ball to the basket consistently is they man who plays the same position!

BlueNGold
12-17-2011, 08:08 PM
Tyler creates his shot better than West. DWest is a catch and shoot guy. His offense is dependent upon someone else creating his shot for him. Do we have that kind of player? The only guy who takes the ball to the basket consistently is they man who plays the same position!

I could be wrong, but this was my impression of David West. I consider him a guy with a deadly shot but not a guy who creates so much. In that respect, he's like a slightly bigger version of Granger.

troyc11a
12-17-2011, 08:37 PM
I could be wrong, but this was my impression of David West. I consider him a guy with a deadly shot but not a guy who creates so much. In that respect, he's like a slightly bigger version of Granger.

I was agreeing with you.

BlueNGold
12-17-2011, 08:51 PM
I was agreeing with you.

...and I was agreeing with you!

vnzla81
12-17-2011, 08:53 PM
...and I was agreeing with you!

And I was agreeing with both of you ..... :D

imawhat
12-17-2011, 08:59 PM
David West will likely be our best iso player. I think he's quite a bit better than Granger in that regard.

Regarding Darren, that's just not his game. He's very good at what he does but setting up teammates isn't part of that. And I can't think of a player that's developed court vision.

BobbyMac
12-17-2011, 09:02 PM
I would venture to suggest that Granger will not go 5-17 after the season starts. For some reason he never seems to shoot well in the pre season..

troyc11a
12-17-2011, 09:11 PM
David West will likely be our best iso player. I think he's quite a bit better than Granger in that regard.

Regarding Darren, that's just not his game. He's very good at what he does but setting up teammates isn't part of that. And I can't think of a player that's developed court vision.

I dont think West is the best iso player at his position. His game is based almost 100% on standing in one spot and waiting for someone to throw him the ball so he can jack up a 17 footer.

Richard_Skull
12-17-2011, 09:13 PM
so... basically 2 Grangers on the court, at the same time. Sounds good to me.

BlueNGold
12-17-2011, 09:29 PM
so... basically 2 Grangers on the court, at the same time. Sounds good to me.

It's all good until you realize that means Tyler is rotting on the bench.

D-BONE
12-17-2011, 09:31 PM
Good idea! I would trade Granger for either!!!!! He killed the offense las night by jacking up so many quick jumpers. Slick was really pointing that out on the radio.

The other thing about Granger is he should not have the green light to bring the ball up on the break/in the open court. His handles and decision making are just not there. They keep trying to force the issue here, but this is just not his forte. In isolations within the offense, I think he's a two to three bounce, toward the hoop guy. Beyond that and it gets dicey.

Tom White
12-17-2011, 09:53 PM
And I was agreeing with both of you ..... :D

And that is frightening.

Tom White
12-17-2011, 09:54 PM
I would venture to suggest that Granger will not go 5-17 after the season starts. For some reason he never seems to shoot well in the pre season..

There have been many, many games over the last few years that would contradict that.

vnzla81
12-17-2011, 10:22 PM
There have been many, many games over the last few years that would contradict that.

I also agree with this ;)

Unclebuck
12-17-2011, 10:31 PM
I hate saying this, but we need a player better than Granger and West in order to be a legitimate contender. We need a star

tfarks
12-17-2011, 10:36 PM
I hate saying this, but we need a player better than Granger and West in order to be a legitimate contender. We need a star

Yeah obviously. But it will be fun to watch until they can hopefully figure out on how to get one of them.

vnzla81
12-17-2011, 10:44 PM
I hate saying this, but we need a player better than Granger and West in order to be a legitimate contender. We need a star

That's what people are expecting of PG, I still hope we try to get Monta Ellis, his contract is also cheap for his production.

Freddie fan
12-17-2011, 11:10 PM
Tyler creates his shot better than West. DWest is a catch and shoot guy. His offense is dependent upon someone else creating his shot for him. Do we have that kind of player? The only guy who takes the ball to the basket consistently is they man who plays the same position!

David West is not just a catch shoot guy. He's tricky and has a lot of moves to get shots off. He's known for developing new moves throughout his career.

Here's highlights from one of his better offensive games:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YhmMwQcpi8&feature=related

Gamble1
12-17-2011, 11:25 PM
Tyler creates his shot better than West. DWest is a catch and shoot guy. His offense is dependent upon someone else creating his shot for him. Do we have that kind of player? The only guy who takes the ball to the basket consistently is they man who plays the same position!
I don't know if these stats are correct and before anyone says that stats don't tell the whole story I would have to agree with that. Unfortunately for most people we can't watch every single NBA game so this may be helpful.

Per 82games website last seasons stats.

Tyler is assisted 62%. David West is assisted 60%.

So where do they add up compared to other great pf's.

KG is assisted 79%.
Bosh is assisted 60%.
Randolf is assisted 49%

Last year 30% of Tyler shot attempts came in close to the basket. David West had 26% in close.

I think a lot of see West as a pick and pop guy but that may not be entirely accurate.

Kemo
12-17-2011, 11:31 PM
I hate saying this, but we need a player better than Granger and West in order to be a legitimate contender. We need a star

I miss the days of teams developing their own stars instead of trying to get someone elses.. Nowadays everyone wants what everyone else has got..


*sigh*

imawhat
12-17-2011, 11:32 PM
David West is not just a catch shoot guy. He's tricky and has a lot of moves to get shots off. He's known for developing new moves throughout his career.

Here's highlights from one of his better offensive games:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YhmMwQcpi8&feature=related

A majority of his scores in that game came after the dribble using a variety of moves. Everyone should watch that clip. Thanks for posting.

There seem to be misconceptions about his game. He is definitely the second best player on this team and he'll be the first player to take real pressure off of Granger.

pacer4ever
12-17-2011, 11:37 PM
David West is not just a catch shoot guy. He's tricky and has a lot of moves to get shots off. He's known for developing new moves throughout his career.

Here's highlights from one of his better offensive games:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YhmMwQcpi8&feature=related

Iamwhat and I have been preaching this anyone who has watched West play knows he is a good player off the dribble and one of the most underrated offensive players he has a ton of moves in his arsenal.

Willbo
12-17-2011, 11:37 PM
Plenty of analysis over the past few days has confused West's elite strengths with the absence of any other abilities. The reality is he does some things at an elite level but not at the exclusion of a varied offensive arsenal.

daschysta
12-17-2011, 11:41 PM
Iamwhat and I have been preaching this anyone who has watched West play knows he is a good player off the dribble and one of the most underrated offensive players he has a ton of moves in his arsenal.

Tyler is much more of catch and shoot player than West in terms of being able to actually create offense. Tyler is great at those awkward shots, but he isn't nearly west's equal at creating off the dribble.

West is a better ISO player than Granger by a large margin, offensively he's very polished.

Pacersalltheway10
12-18-2011, 12:57 AM
Right now it looks like are main scorers are going to be Granger, Hans, and West. We definitely could use West. With West we can now move Hans to the bench where he can just light up the opposing teams bench players. People underestimate having a strong bench. That's a reason why the Mavs won the championship and the Mavs didn't. ( Lebron didn't show up in the 4th and they didnt even have a bench pplayer like Barea or Terry to make up for it)

BlueNGold
12-18-2011, 01:10 AM
Let's slow the band wagon down for a second.

All that video shows is that Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum, both big centers, cannot guard David West. That is not surprising. Not sure why Odom only logged 12 minutes in that game. They clearly needed someone more agile to contend with David. Anyway, let's see him knock down clutch shots at crunch time against half-way decent defense.

The point is, the video shows he is talented (something we all should know) but I've seen Granger do that kind of thing. Not often but Danny has had his moments and if we cherry picked one of his games you would probably draw the same conclusion.

tadscout
12-18-2011, 01:28 AM
Let's slow the band wagon down for a second.

All that video shows is that Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum, both big centers, cannot guard David West. That is not surprising. Not sure why Odom only logged 12 minutes in that game. They clearly needed someone more agile to contend with David. Anyway, let's see him knock down clutch shots at crunch time against half-way decent defense.

The point is, the video shows he is talented (something we all should know) but I've seen Granger do that kind of thing. Not often but Danny has had his moments and if we cherry picked one of his games you would probably draw the same conclusion.

The Hornets True Hoops Blog (similar to our 8pts9sec) says-


Everything about Wests game was unexpected. Hes built like a rock, yet has one of the sweetest mid-range set shots in the game. Despite limited foot-speed, he could find space at any time for his shot. For years hes been able to attack off the dribble in isolation as well as any forward in the league, regularly putting the lie to the oft-repeated nonsense about him being a jump shooter who lived off of Chris Paul.

LINK (http://www.hornets247.com/blog/2011/12/12/a-farewell-to-david-west/)

Freddie fan
12-18-2011, 01:30 AM
Nice article about David West here: http://www.hornets247.com/blog/2011/12/12/a-farewell-to-david-west/

pizza guy
12-18-2011, 01:35 AM
I have felt since Tyler really caught fire for a stretch last season that he would have the talent to be a very good, starting PF for us. That's why I really wanted to see us land Mayo, even Crawford, or preferably someone better than both of them (via trade). I'm hoping Hill can fill this role a little bit, but I don't think he's the star that UB mentioned.

I like David "Fluffy" West, and I think he will be a good addition to this team. He's an All-Star player, seems to be a good guy with good basketball IQ and a very professional demeanor. Tyler could start, but his going to the bench will mean he's able to punish other team's second unit. I would've been happy with him starting, but he's going to have some monster games and very likely be a large factor in a lot of win for the Pacers.

I'm hoping, like the rest of us, that Paul George becomes the star we need. If he can play the 2 and really have a breakout year, I think we can really make some noise. And if he develops into a very consistent, elite player, then we could be serious contenders in the next few years. If PG24 isn't going to be that elite talent, I think it will be time to seriously consider trading Danny (+whatever) for an elite SG and making a real push toward a title with DC+star+PG+West+Hibb.

BlueNGold
12-18-2011, 01:41 AM
The Hornets True Hoops Blog (similar to our 8pts9sec) says-



LINK (http://www.hornets247.com/blog/2011/12/12/a-farewell-to-david-west/)

He looks like a better version of Lamar Odom. So, yes, I see that he has some game. I'm not convinced he can regularly create his own shot, particularly at crunch time, against good defense. IOW, he is no Kobe, Billups, DWade or Reggie Miller type of player who you count on for getting open and tough shots down the stretch. Sure, he will help. But the type of player I have in mind is usually a guard and usually gets open via picks or athleticism. I suppose if West can be like a Mark Aguirre or Karl Malone type that's very, very good...but that's simply not what I thought the Pacers lack.

imawhat
12-18-2011, 02:00 AM
He's not Kobe, but West can regularly create his own shot. Karl Malone is a good comparison. West models his game a bit after Malone.

Hicks
12-18-2011, 02:11 AM
West has hit at least one game winner on an iso play.

PG-24
12-18-2011, 02:25 AM
Iamwhat and I have been preaching this anyone who has watched West play knows he is a good player off the dribble and one of the most underrated offensive players he has a ton of moves in his arsenal.

Agree with this. starting to think alot of the people in here have never watched david west play.

catch and shoot guy :laugh:

Trader Joe
12-18-2011, 02:49 AM
I know a lot of you won't be shocked by this, but I was totally unimpressed with Lance on Friday. I'm really hoping he shows me something, but I honestly felt like he had regressed.

McKeyFan
12-18-2011, 09:02 AM
But the type of player I have in mind is usually a guard and usually gets open via picks or athleticism. I suppose if West can be like a Mark Aguirre or Karl Malone type that's very, very good...but that's simply not what I thought the Pacers lack.
We lacked both.

If West pans out, it is a great pick up for us.

OakMoses
12-18-2011, 10:27 AM
I dont understand how you bring West in to the equation here. Tyler was arguably the best player on the court for the Pacers last night. 19/11? How is West going to improve on that? If anything, pre-season game #1 just showed us that we improved a position that didnt need improving.


Did you not notice that without Tyler in the game our offense was the most craptastic I've ever seen it? It was like watching the 2nd half of a Purdue game.


David West will likely be our best iso player. I think he's quite a bit better than Granger in that regard.

Regarding Darren, that's just not his game. He's very good at what he does but setting up teammates isn't part of that. And I can't think of a player that's developed court vision.

I agree in general re: Collison, but we have to admit that he as been very good at setting up guys using PnR/PnP when he has a big man who's also good at it.

PacerDude
12-18-2011, 11:43 AM
I know a lot of you won't be shocked by this, but I was totally unimpressed with Lance on Friday. I'm really hoping he shows me something, but I honestly felt like he had regressed.
It's pretty tough to regress from where he was. Not easy to be worse than bad.

Though I have heard / read that he's looked better in practice (I know, I know .......), so I'm willing to wait until the games count before passing judgement on the guy.

OakMoses
12-18-2011, 11:56 AM
I know a lot of you won't be shocked by this, but I was totally unimpressed with Lance on Friday. I'm really hoping he shows me something, but I honestly felt like he had regressed.

I disagree. I thought his defense was better than expected. I also thought he ran the offense without forcing things, which is something he would have never done last year. We need to take into account that he was playing with D. Jones, Rush, Lazare, and Foster most of the time he was on the floor. Chris Paul couldn't make that group look good, so I don't blame Lance.

Also, I just looked this up on ESPN play-by-play, the Pacers scored 6 points during the 12 minutes Tyler Hansbrough sat on the bench Friday.

wintermute
12-18-2011, 02:27 PM
West has hit at least one game winner on an iso play.

So has Danny :D

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But I agree with imawhat that West is better at it. I especially agree with imawhat's first post that a playmaker would be even better than another shot creator.

Trouble is, it's a lot easier to get guys like Crawford and Mayo, than guys like Rondo, Kidd, Nash. Kendall Marshall of UNC is a guy to watch for that reason.