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View Full Version : Who Is Our Third Best Player?



AesopRockOn
12-14-2011, 07:08 PM
I apologize if this has been brought up already, but I haven't really seen a consensus. To me it seems like an interesting issue. I preface this by saying I'm quite sure we (almost?) all agree that Danny and Fluffy are our top two players, Danny probably being the best, but that's neither here nor there. I'm posting this as a poll, hope it works. (I'm including pretty much everyone, aware that some will get little/no votes.)

Edit: If you would like to specify whether you are voting for beginning of season, end of season, middle or whatever, please go ahead. I'm thinking of the beginning of the season in my brain.

PR07
12-14-2011, 07:18 PM
Hibbert probably commands the most attention, my guess is him if he can consistently bring it. However, it wouldn't surprise me if George or Hill come out with some vengeance.

pacersgroningen
12-14-2011, 07:25 PM
If Roy is able to be the power player Vogel wants him to be, with the improved squad we'll have, he might make a big jump statistically as teams can't load up on him as much like they did in the past. If those two things do play out, I'd give Roy a chance to receive MIP and be a top 6/7 center in the league.

As much as I am awed at times by George's potential, I don't expect him to make such a jump just yet.

crunk-juice
12-14-2011, 07:28 PM
4-way tie

pacer4ever
12-14-2011, 07:31 PM
we are still assuming Lance is the best right...?

PacerPenguins
12-14-2011, 07:34 PM
how did crunk-juice vote 5 times?

cdash
12-14-2011, 07:35 PM
I think Hibbert (right now, at least) is our third best player. As far as success on the court is concerned, I maintain that Hibbert is our most important player. Look back at the games where he played well, and we were incredibly difficult to beat. If he brings that consistency all season, we could end up with a shockingly good record (and something like a 3 seed in the playoffs).

DieHard
12-14-2011, 07:38 PM
I can't decide until I see it on the floor. Right now I'm " leaning towards" DC because of the West addition, plus I am thinking Tyler worked on the pick and pop a lot in the long off season. These will both make DC shine. It is a hard choice though. We have five guys poised fir breakout years. DC, Tyler, Hill, George, and Roy. Excellent poll.

crunk-juice
12-14-2011, 07:51 PM
how did crunk-juice vote 5 times?

i'm a wizard

xBulletproof
12-14-2011, 07:54 PM
I voted Paul George on the hope that he makes a big jump. If he does this team is in for some serious improvement. When Hibbert goes from the #2 guy on the team to #4, that would just be ... awesome.

Here's to hoping!

EvanMassey
12-14-2011, 07:55 PM
At this point I'll vote for Roy Hibbert, but it could end up being Paul George. The dude grew to 6'10" over the course of the summer, and he's still just as quick as ever. I have to see the two play in the two preseason games and I might change my mind, but right now Big Roy gets my vote.

Hicks
12-14-2011, 08:37 PM
Probably Roy as of when I saw these guys last, but I'm thinking it will be Paul George soon.

sportfireman
12-14-2011, 08:41 PM
Well I picked Roy as 3rd... But I know who the best is..... LANCE BABY!!!!! Per Bird...

Brad8888
12-14-2011, 08:49 PM
Paul, Tyler, and Roy. All have strengths. All have weaknesses. All can have big impacts on games from their given positions that are either positive or negative. So, behind Danny and Fluffy, it is a tie between all three and I voted accordingly. If we had still had McRoberts and Dunleavy, I would have included them as well.

We should end up as an exceptionally deep, multifaceted team that is one superstar away from being a recognized factor in the playoffs by the media. But, that's OK, we will be a factor that is recognized by the other teams regardless. Just like the saying about Tyler -- "Nobody wants to play against the Indiana Pacers. NOBODY!"

daschysta
12-14-2011, 08:49 PM
It's Roy and that's how the league sees it to. It was pretty eye opening to hear David talking about how Roy other than Danny is the one guy opposing defenses collapse and focus on. If he's more immovable (from the post) this year we may be having conversations about who our second best player is in the near future.

pizza guy
12-14-2011, 08:54 PM
Roy Hibbert. He has shown the talent on a more consistent basis than Paul George so far. PG24 might make the jump this year, but it's hard to say now. Also, I think Hibbert will improve again this year from added strength and the addition of Fluffy.

OakMoses
12-14-2011, 09:51 PM
Right now it's George Hill and it's not even close. He's a 2 way player who's been a major contributor on an excellent basketball team for his entire career. Other guys have more long-term potential, but none of them have even come close to putting it together like Hill has at this point.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

BlueNGold
12-14-2011, 09:59 PM
"Best player" is a little hard to define. I don't believe George Hill is our third best player for a few reasons:

1) We would have a more difficult time winning games without Roy, than without George Hill. So, that's his direct practical effect.

2) Hibbert's market value is higher. Yes, that's potential, but it could also fall under the "best player" definition.

3) Finally, I think if you were building starting units from best to worst in the EC, Hibbert would be picked before George Hill. I'd have to go through the exercise of making those picks to be sure though.

In any event, the practical effect of the Pacers losing Roy Hibbert would be much greater. It's not even remotely close.

Pacersalltheway10
12-14-2011, 10:01 PM
After this season I can garuntee people will be all on the Collison bandwagon again.

xBulletproof
12-14-2011, 10:05 PM
After this season I can garuntee people will be all on the Collison bandwagon again.

I was on it before he got here. I watched New Orleans a lot for Chris Paul. I talked him up a boat load, and he didn't deliver last year. I sure hope he comes through this year.

Infinite MAN_force
12-14-2011, 10:30 PM
"Best player" is a little hard to define. I don't believe George Hill is our third best player for a few reasons:

1) We would have a more difficult time winning games without Roy, than without George Hill. So, that's his direct practical effect.

2) Hibbert's market value is higher. Yes, that's potential, but it could also fall under the "best player" definition.

3) Finally, I think if you were building starting units from best to worst in the EC, Hibbert would be picked before George Hill. I'd have to go through the exercise of making those picks to be sure though.

In any event, the practical effect of the Pacers losing Roy Hibbert would be much greater. It's not even remotely close.

I was going to say George Hill to start the season, Roy Hibbert to finish it, but you make an interesting argument.

A lot of this is positional though, it has more to do with how much more important a good center is than a good combo guard. Right now, however, George Hill is the more reliable and polished player.

I think Roy could surpass him game 1 if he has improved from last year much at all, though consistency is one of the most important things when determining "best players" IMO.

Paul George talk is premature. The question is "best" player, as in results on the court right now... not most talented.

croz24
12-14-2011, 11:14 PM
I don't think it's fair to assume anyone on this team is the best or second best player. People want to bring up a playoff series where we lost 1-4 as evidence that Danny is #1, but for the vast majority of last season he was maybe our best player for a 1 month stretch. His game left a lot to be desired most of last year. And West has yet to put on a Pacers uni or prove he's over his knee injury. So I think all players should be included in the poll.

BlueNGold
12-14-2011, 11:22 PM
I was going to say George Hill to start the season, Roy Hibbert to finish it, but you make an interesting argument.

A lot of this is positional though, it has more to do with how much more important a good center is than a good combo guard. Right now, however, George Hill is the more reliable and polished player.

I think Roy could surpass him game 1 if he has improved from last year much at all, though consistency is one of the most important things when determining "best players" IMO.

Paul George talk is premature. The question is "best" player, as in results on the court right now... not most talented.

I think you have to make this judgment while considering position. There are just a larger number of good guards and SF's because there is such a greater pool of people that size. What I'm saying is, it is far easier to improve your back court and SF position and acquiring a player you might consider to be "good". Also, the skill set is so different. Who's the better C? It's like comparing apples and oranges if you try to directly compare the players.

BlueNGold
12-14-2011, 11:24 PM
I don't think it's fair to assume anyone on this team is the best or second best player. People want to bring up a playoff series where we lost 1-4 as evidence that Danny is #1, but for the vast majority of last season he was maybe our best player for a 1 month stretch. His game left a lot to be desired most of last year. And West has yet to put on a Pacers uni or prove he's over his knee injury. So I think all players should be included in the poll.

I'm not a Granger fan, but it's undeniable that he's the best player on the Pacers. He may not be the most talented, but he is the best NBA player for the time being.

Anthem
12-14-2011, 11:49 PM
I don't think it's fair to assume anyone on this team is the best or second best player. People want to bring up a playoff series where we lost 1-4 as evidence that Danny is #1, but for the vast majority of last season he was maybe our best player for a 1 month stretch. His game left a lot to be desired most of last year. And West has yet to put on a Pacers uni or prove he's over his knee injury. So I think all players should be included in the poll.
I can't be the only one who saw croz's name and immediately thought "He's going to say it should be Danny Granger."

:laugh:

And we were agreeing on so many things, croz!

daschysta
12-14-2011, 11:54 PM
I don't think it's fair to assume anyone on this team is the best or second best player. People want to bring up a playoff series where we lost 1-4 as evidence that Danny is #1, but for the vast majority of last season he was maybe our best player for a 1 month stretch. His game left a lot to be desired most of last year. And West has yet to put on a Pacers uni or prove he's over his knee injury. So I think all players should be included in the poll.

Sheesh, you are SO biased against Danny it's crazy. Danny was easily our best player, not because he had his best season, or went the extra mile, but because we really had no competition for that title. Who? Hansbrough? Same criticism, and he still wasn't better than granger even during the second half of the season, just playing above expectations, and he was the worse pacer on the whole team in the playoffs after the first game. Roy? He was our best player for the first month of the season, but after that no way... Who? Who was our best player last year Mr. Croz, if not Granger.
Sheesh. And no anthem, if you know the thread title is, and that Croz has posted in it, you can predict the gist of his post with about 95 percent accuracy.

croz24
12-15-2011, 12:00 AM
I can't be the only one who saw croz's name and immediately thought "He's going to say it should be Danny Granger."

:laugh:

And we were agreeing on so many things, croz!

Not saying I would or wouldn't rank Granger first/second. But it's undeniable there were several times last year George, Hibbert, and even Collison were the better overall basketball player. And with the West injury, it should be open for discussion imo. But it's definitely a difficult question to answer.

Ace E.Anderson
12-15-2011, 12:02 AM
Right now it's George Hill and it's not even close. He's a 2 way player who's been a major contributor on an excellent basketball team for his entire career. Other guys have more long-term potential, but none of them have even come close to putting it together like Hill has at this point.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

I couldn't agree more. George Hill has been one of the top players for one of the best teams in the league the past few years. He defends, he hits the 3, he slashes..he is a complete package

Anthem
12-15-2011, 12:02 AM
Not saying I would or wouldn't rank Granger first/second. But it's undeniable there were several times last year George, Hibbert, and even Collison were the better overall basketball player. And with the West injury, it should be open for discussion imo. But it's definitely a difficult question to answer.
For the record, I have no idea of an answer either. I'm looking forward to finding out, though.

That's why they play the games.

croz24
12-15-2011, 12:07 AM
Sheesh, you are SO biased against Danny it's crazy. Danny was easily our best player, not because he had his best season, or went the extra mile, but because we really had no competition for that title. Who? Hansbrough? Same criticism, and he still wasn't better than granger even during the second half of the season, just playing above expectations, and he was the worse pacer on the whole team in the playoffs after the first game. Roy? He was our best player for the first month of the season, but after that no way... Who? Who was our best player last year Mr. Croz, if not Granger.
Sheesh. And no anthem, if you know the thread title is, and that Croz has posted in it, you can predict the gist of his post with about 95 percent accuracy.

Again, I never said he wasn't our best player. Anyone who thinks Danny had a good year last year is just fooling themselves. The man refused to play defense the majority of the time and again saw his fg% dip to 42.5%, turnovers increase, and assists decrease. Quit acting like Danny had this amazing season. My post was to state that the Pacers 1st, 2nd, 3rd best player should be open for debate with all players listed in the poll.

vnzla81
12-15-2011, 12:09 AM
The Pacers best player is Danny, the second best player is Roy and if healthy the third best player is West, if he is not healthy then I don't know, maybe PG?

trs72
12-15-2011, 12:09 AM
IMO Paul George is the 3rd best while Danny is 1st and D. West is 2nd if fully healthy. I voted for Paul George for 3rd but i do believe it is close with him, Tyler and Collison. I give Paul George the edge based on athletic ability and Defense. I know a lot of people will wonder why I did not mention Roy and its because I have not seen a consistency out of him. While we saw what Tyler could do fairly consistently evry night once he got playing time.

xIndyFan
12-15-2011, 12:17 AM
fwiw,

according to the ESPN rankings, the top pacer player is danny granger, #36. David West is 2nd at #45. the 3rd best player is up for grabs between George Hill, #91, Darren Collison, #94 and Roy Hibbert, #96.

Ransom
12-15-2011, 12:21 AM
Um...can I come back to this a few weeks into the season? It honestly could end up being Paul, Roy or neither depending on how much they've improved.

Kemo
12-15-2011, 12:29 AM
I think it is gonna be very hard to rank our players like proposed in this thread..
The depth chart around 1 thru 8 on this roster are all so very talented, that it will constantly go back and forth between them all.. making it hard to decide, unless you go purely off stats alone... But stats, as many know, don't tell the whole story... or place the value on a particular player in corelation to their importance to the team.

We have so many guys who are on the cusp of breaking out, it really is unbelievable...

I mean wow... can you imagine if we have 3 or 4 of our young guys just totally click this year and hit that "other level" ?

Roy, DC, Hans, PG , Lance, Hill

Then you have the veterans who could have an excellent season such as
DG and West..

This season and next, we as Pacer fans are gonna witness something very special with this team..

I am just glad that I get to be along for the ride, because it's gonna be a good one...

crunk-juice
12-15-2011, 12:32 AM
funny how Hibbert and George are 1 and 2 when they both sucked last season lol

Freddie fan
12-15-2011, 12:33 AM
Well, let's see:

1. Troy "Stretch" Murphy, the Matador!
2. Mike "High Basketball IQ" Dunlimpy, "like a son to JOB"
3. Danny "I don't care anymore; I'm tired of JOB" Granger

Wrong, those days are over. Hurrah!!!

People, it's wonderful to be starting a new season with the new group of players and Frank Vogel at the helm. I was so disgusted with the JOB era that I didn't enjoy Pacers basketballl anymore. I'd still, masochistically, watch most of the games, but was completely disgusted by the way the team played and particularly by O'Brien's leadership and direction. We've got better players now and Granger and others are going to show that they are better players than what we've seen.

Let's get it started. I can't wait!

pizza guy
12-15-2011, 12:34 AM
This is a great question, and I LOVE that there's a real debate over it, not because the team sucks so bad that we really don't know, but because there's actually a lot of talent and potential and different skill sets on this roster.

George Hill should be given serious consideration. I voted for Big Roy because I think his ceiling is higher and he has much more bearing on whether or not the Pacers win. But Hill is a very good player and will certainly bring a lot to this team as well.

OakMoses
12-15-2011, 01:54 AM
"Best player" is a little hard to define. I don't believe George Hill is our third best player for a few reasons:

1) We would have a more difficult time winning games without Roy, than without George Hill. So, that's his direct practical effect.

2) Hibbert's market value is higher. Yes, that's potential, but it could also fall under the "best player" definition.

3) Finally, I think if you were building starting units from best to worst in the EC, Hibbert would be picked before George Hill. I'd have to go through the exercise of making those picks to be sure though.

In any event, the practical effect of the Pacers losing Roy Hibbert would be much greater. It's not even remotely close.

I totally agree that Roy is more valuable or more important to the Pacers than George Hill. In fact, I would probably say that Roy's play will be more important to the Pacers than any other player on the roster. I ran the numbers earlier this offseason and the Pacers won something like 65% of the games where Roy scored above his scoring average.


I was going to say George Hill to start the season, Roy Hibbert to finish it, but you make an interesting argument.

A lot of this is positional though, it has more to do with how much more important a good center is than a good combo guard. Right now, however, George Hill is the more reliable and polished player.

I think Roy could surpass him game 1 if he has improved from last year much at all, though consistency is one of the most important things when determining "best players" IMO.

Paul George talk is premature. The question is "best" player, as in results on the court right now... not most talented.

I agree with IMF here mainly because of two words: reliable and consistency. I don't think either one of those words applies to Roy Hibbert at all.

Also, I don't think that you can project improvement into this issue. George, Hibbert, Collison, and Hansbrough could all develop into better players than George Hill. They could also all fall short of ever being a top 5 player on a really good team.


I think you have to make this judgment while considering position. There are just a larger number of good guards and SF's because there is such a greater pool of people that size. What I'm saying is, it is far easier to improve your back court and SF position and acquiring a player you might consider to be "good". Also, the skill set is so different. Who's the better C? It's like comparing apples and oranges if you try to directly compare the players.

Agreed with the apples to oranges idea, but I guess I should define what I think "best" means. To me it's a combination of versatility, positional ability, and reliability/consistency. Hill can play 2 positions, is an above average defender and (at least) an average offensive player at both of these positions. Roy plays 1 position where, at this point, I don't think he can be considered any better than average at either offense or defense. The questions I ask myself are then: How often can I rely on George Hill to do the things that I want/need/expect a PG/SG to be able to do? How often can I rely on Roy Hibbert to be able to do the things I want/need/expect a C to be able to do? I think I can rely on Hill to do his "job" as a PG/SG more often than I can expect Hibbert to his "job" as a center.

vnzla81
12-15-2011, 02:06 AM
I was on it before he got here. I watched New Orleans a lot for Chris Paul. I talked him up a boat load, and he didn't deliver last year. I sure hope he comes through this year.

I know what the problem is, it looks to me like every player you support or like goes straight to sucky land, first Dunleavy and now DC, you need to stop while you can :-p

3 8 thee great t h
12-15-2011, 02:21 AM
According to 2k it's d west...yeah seriously u kno what's even more crazy. The number two spot...Darren Collison, yeah really!

Ace E.Anderson
12-15-2011, 02:55 AM
Right now it's George Hill and it's not even close. He's a 2 way player who's been a major contributor on an excellent basketball team for his entire career. Other guys have more long-term potential, but none of them have even come close to putting it together like Hill has at this point.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

I couldn't agree more. George Hill has been one of the top players for one of the best teams in the league the past few years. He defends, he hits the 3, he slashes..he is a complete package

pezasied182
12-15-2011, 02:59 AM
According to 2k it's d west...yeah seriously u kno what's even more crazy. The number two spot...Darren Collison, yeah really!

On my MyPlayer season, the Pacers traded Hansbrough and Hill for Reddick, siiick!

PG is at least (relatively) really good on 2k12.

yoadknux
12-15-2011, 04:09 AM
Probably DC or Roy

3 8 thee great t h
12-15-2011, 04:20 AM
On my MyPlayer season, the Pacers traded Hansbrough and Hill for Reddick, siiick!

PG is at least (relatively) really good on 2k12.

Lol he is and that's not sick that's sad..I played for the kings and got Westbrook and harden for cousins...NOW THATS SICK!:dance:

And robbery I might add lol

Eleazar
12-15-2011, 05:18 AM
I was going to say Paul George be because when he is aggressive on offense he has the ability to be a good scorer, but then I thoughtful of Rush. When he is aggressive on offense he is arguably the most complete player on the team. That kind of ruined my arguement. So I don't even know who is the se fond best because with all of them therre is always an if. There are only 3 things I'm certain of. Granger is the best, Hibbert is the most important, and George has the highest potential.

PG-24
12-15-2011, 06:36 AM
we are still assuming Lance is the best right...?

this gets my vote

pezasied182
12-15-2011, 06:40 AM
Lol he is and that's not sick that's sad..I played for the kings and got Westbrook and harden for cousins...NOW THATS SICK!:dance:

And robbery I might add lol

I was kidding, I obviously wasn't thrilled about the "upgrade." My player is a point though so having Hill off the team opened up my guy to more minutes at pg as I was getting mostly sg minutes before. Now though the backup pf is Posey which sucks...

And Westbrook and Harden for Cousins? That's a nice trade for you, but wow the computer makes some dumb trades in that game.

PG-24
12-15-2011, 06:46 AM
According to 2k it's d west...yeah seriously u kno what's even more crazy. The number two spot...Darren Collison, yeah really!

Collisons a great video game player... i traded him last year though :laugh:

LucasRL13
12-15-2011, 08:17 AM
George will be a Top5 in this league

PAUL GEORGEEEE

Naptown_Seth
12-15-2011, 07:09 PM
Danny, right behind West unless Roy can make a move.

Paul's going to be #1 this season.

croz24
12-15-2011, 07:11 PM
Danny, right behind West unless Roy can make a move.

Paul's going to be #1 this season.

I just don't see Danny stepping aside to let that happen. It needs to happen and is likely the only way the Pacers will win a championship any time soon, but I don't see Danny giving up that role.

Naptown_Seth
12-15-2011, 07:22 PM
I don't think he has to step aside. I think Paul will be playing better defense and getting enough scoring chances to justify his minutes and role. Then as his confidence grows he'll start scoring more consistently and this will finally lead to Vogel centering more around him.

Honestly they did a good job of moving the offense away from just Danny for much of Vogel's time with the playoffs being more of the exception.

But Paul is going to give SGs fits with his size and has a stride that will have him out in breaks getting the cheap stuff. To me it just seems like you can see this coming a mile away based on what he was last year and how he changed and developed.


The offense is going to work mostly off of Roy and West anyway, not Danny. Danny's points should come more on kick outs from the low post and on double-down lane cuts.


Sheesh, this team actually overwhelms me when you think about the high/low post of Roy and West, either of which can work either post fairly well (Roy is a good, though sometimes risky passer). Then you have DCs speed or Hill's total game. It's like Danny and Paul are almost gravy on this.

Tyler obviously can be a big time PnPop scorer off the bench when needed.

OakMoses
01-14-2012, 12:33 PM
Funny to think that, at this point in the season, the two guys we were assuming would be numbers one and two, are more like four and five. As of right now I'd say that Hibbert, Hill, and Hansbrough have been our best players.

croz24
01-14-2012, 01:09 PM
Funny to think that, at this point in the season, the two guys we were assuming would be numbers one and two, are more like four and five. As of right now I'd say that Hibbert, Hill, and Hansbrough have been our best players.

Thus my post that we shouldn't just assume Danny and even West are our #1 and #2 players. But of course, PD members attacked that statement.

wintermute
01-14-2012, 01:14 PM
Funny to think that, at this point in the season, the two guys we were assuming would be numbers one and two, are more like four and five. As of right now I'd say that Hibbert, Hill, and Hansbrough have been our best players.

Don't forget Collison. Paul G still up and down.

daschysta
01-14-2012, 01:40 PM
Roy has pretty clearly been our best player. Danny and West have a chance to surpass him if they play up to their past levels, but Roy is no joke this year, and has been playing like an all-star even though he doesn't get the touches some other guys get.

PacersHomer
01-14-2012, 02:17 PM
Hibbert is our best, and #2 through #7 doesn't have a set ranking IMO. Sometimes Hill will be the best, other times it'll be George, sometimes Granger, sometimes West or Hansbrough, and last night it was Collison.

D-BONE
01-14-2012, 02:50 PM
Right now it's George Hill and it's not even close. He's a 2 way player who's been a major contributor on an excellent basketball team for his entire career. Other guys have more long-term potential, but none of them have even come close to putting it together like Hill has at this point.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

My top 3 players in terms of importance:
1 - Hibbert
2 - West
3 - Hill

No slight to Granger or anyone else for that matter. This team is so balanced it could be a seven-way tie for best player. These are the "glue" guys (with Tyler coming in 4th). Take any of them and it's a major downgrade in terms of grit, intensity, physical & mental toughness. In other words, these guys, to me, are the SOUL of the team.