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Unclebuck
02-09-2004, 11:20 AM
Jay, wants to know who we think are the top 5 and top 10 players in the east.

OK

Here is my list as of 2/9/04. J.O is in my mind the best player in the east, not too sure about the rest of the ordr I have put these in


1) Jermaine O'Neal
2) Jason Kidd
3) Iverson
4) McGrady
5) Pierce
6) Artest
7) Lebron
8) Lamar Odom
9) Baron Davis - His shot selction is so bad
10) Michael Redd


left off my top ten but deserves mention, Mashburn, Billups, Rip Hamilton, K. Martin, Ben Wallace, Marbury.

Ask me tomorrow and the order would be different, but to get the discussion started, this is good enough

ChicagoJ
02-09-2004, 11:34 AM
Thanks for starting it...

I know I'd rate JO as #1.

My first inclination is to say that AI, Kidd, and McGrady should be #2 thru #4. I don't care what order. But AI has been hurt and his team has struggled. Kidd's team has struggled until recently and I haven't seen them play since the coaching change. And I think the Magic might be better if McGrady shot/ scored less.

So I'll rank Ben Wallace #2.

I'll give #3 to Pierce. He's in the exact opposite postion (in my opinion) of McGrady - the Celts might need him to play a little more selfishly.

#4 AI
#5 Kidd
#6 McGrady

#'s seven through ten: This is a toss-up, but I think the four players I put in this bucket are Artest, Odom, Billups and Martin.

Like UB, my opinion of #'s 2 - 10 on this list will probably be different tomorrow.

Mourning
02-09-2004, 11:39 AM
Ok, my ranking as of now:

1) Jason Kidd
2) JO
3) T-Mac
4) Iverson
5) Marbury
6) Pierce
7) Baron Davis
8) Lamar Odom
9) Ron Artest/Ben Wallace (cant make up my mind! :giveup: )
10) Lebron james

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Unclebuck
02-09-2004, 11:42 AM
Do you pick the 10 best players right now, or the 10 who have been the best the past year or so, or potential. Makes it tough that some are coming off injuries. But I think most of us agree on most of the players

When choosing between Artest and Ben Wallace, here is how I look at it.

Defensively: they are different but equal.

Rebounding: Ben has the advantage without question

Offensively: Ron has the advantage. Ron is often the pacers go to guy. Ben is never the go to guy. Ron has a huge effect on the game offensively.


What that in mind I think Artest is better

Mourning
02-09-2004, 11:48 AM
Players I think NOW are the best. ;)

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Mourning
02-09-2004, 11:58 AM
Offcourse, Wallace is much less "dominant" offensively ( :unimpressed: ) than Artest, but I still think defensively he makes a little more of a difference. Artest is probably the best defender in the league, but I think Wallace is probably the best intimidator in the league (with Artest not too far behind). Artest has usually got to guard the main perimeter/guard threat, however Wallace has to step in at about everyone just coming close to the basket, most teams take more shots from inside and then relatively close to the bucket (with higher % of hitting) than from the outside. And what Wallace does with his presence, blocks, elbows, rebounds, etc he has to do (I think) on more potential threats/shots from the other side (the opponent).
Anyway, it's real close in my opinion and my judgement may very from game to game, I thought Artest played brilliant against the Raptors last friday, but was pretty bad last night against the Heat.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Peck
02-09-2004, 12:02 PM
1. Jermaine O'Neal
2. Stephon Marburry (hard to argue with the production & success)
3. Tracy McGrady
4. Ben Wallace
5. Jason Kidd
6. Ron Artest
7. Paul Pierce
8. Carlos Boozer
9. LeBron James
10. Lamar Odom

Notice I left off A.I. & Vince Carter

DisplacedKnick
02-09-2004, 12:17 PM
I'm going to assume that these numbers are as of this moment in time. When you start throwing the "P" word around I think Lebron floats to the top pf the list fairly quickly (BTW - my "this moment in time" means within the last year).

1. Kidd
2. JO (not gonna rate him above Kidd until the Pacers go deeper in the playoffs)
3. T-Mac
4. Iverson
5. Pierce
6. Wallace
7. LeBron
8. Marbury (maybe some homerism but with the way he's turned us around ...)
9. Artest
10. Redd

I don't particularly care for Baron Davis just because he's never been able to maintain his consistency over an entire season. K-Mart's the other obvious person I've left off. Other honorable mentions: Hamilton, Mashburn, Abdur-Rahim, Carter, Odom.

Slick Pinkham
02-09-2004, 12:48 PM
Notice I left off A.I. & Vince Carter

Every single one of us has left off Vince. I'd quibble with omitting AI, at least unless Pierce is also omitted.

They are both streaky shoot-all-the-time one-on-one performers, but I'd have them both at the bottom half of my top 10:

1) JO
2) Kidd
3) McGrady
4) LeBron
5) Wallace
6) Iverson
7) Artest
8) Marbury
9) Pierce
10) Odom - though this is more heaily based upon THIS SEASON and he obviously has personal demons to conquer.

Redd, Billups, Boozer, Baron Davis, Jerry Stackhouse, Vince, Magliore, Martin, Abdur-Rahim, and Rip Hamilton make up my second 10.

ABADays
02-09-2004, 01:04 PM
In no particular order:

Julius Irving
Roger Brown
Mel Daniels
Dan Issel
George McGinnis
Artis gilmore
Connie Hawkins
Billy Cunningham
Louie Dampier
Bob Netolicky

Slick Pinkham
02-09-2004, 01:12 PM
ABA- add Rick Barry and delete Louie Dampier.

Two #$##%& Kentucky Colonels, Gilmore and Issel, are quite enough.

;)

And maybe Zelmo Beatty needs some props!

I must sound older than dirt. If only the old Colonels-Pacers rivalry could have continued in the NBA. :(

naptownmenace
02-09-2004, 01:15 PM
My top 10:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Jermaine O'Neal
3. McGrady
4. Iverson
5. Pierce
6. Artest
7. Wallace
8. Marbury
9. Hamilton
10. K. Martin

I think you have to squeeze KMart in the top ten because the level he's at reminds me of JO two seasons ago. Rip Hamilton deserves props as well and it's a shame he isn't an all-star. He's such an efficient and clutch player that he gets my nod over guys like Baron Davis, Vince, and Micheal Redd (as much as I love watching each of those players).

diego
02-09-2004, 01:19 PM
I am surprised by some of the names i have see on here: I am basing my list on at least the past couple years, becuase IMO when you talk BEST players, you have to take in account consistency.

1. JO - when you combine scoring, rebounding, blocked shots, defense, etc...its hard to argue with this

2. TMAC - the guy can light it up from anywhere, is unselfish, and is a pretty good defender

3. Kidd - great leader, vision, and has become a potent offensive weapon

4. AI - -the guy is still unbeliveable. yes he shoots a lto, but look at his team, he has to. Still IMO is the best creator in the east

5. Artest - again combining offense, defensem leadership...he does it all

6. Marbury - can create, has good range, and can score at will...defense a little suspect though

7. Paul Pierce - still a great offensive weapon, can score in post or from deep or from mid range, if he would play solid defense he could be top 5

8. Ben Wallace - may not be a huge offensive threat, but is still a great rebounder and defender and intimidator, if he had an offensive game, he would be much higher

9. Baron Davis - great vision, can shoot it from anywhere, solid defender, needs to get away from playground mistakes

10. Lebron - even though he is a rookie, there is no doubting he is one of top 10 in east....in 1 or 2 more years he will probably be top 5 easy.


I dont mean to sound harsh here, but putting Odom, Redd, etc...on this list is premature. Odom still needs to prove it over time, and Redd is very close, but not yet. I know people may be thinking just this year, but i dont think you can evaluate the best by a half a season.

ABADays
02-09-2004, 01:21 PM
ABA- add Rick Barry and delete Louie Dampier.

Two #$##%& Kentucky Colonels, Gilmore and Issel, are quite enough.

;)

And maybe Zelmo Beatty needs some props!

I must sound older than dirt. If only the old Colonels-Pacers rivalry could have continued in the NBA. :(I forgot Barry played in the East. Beatty did play in the West though.

I agree - wish they had come in with us.

Is this a thread hijacking?

Slick Pinkham
02-09-2004, 01:27 PM
:blush:

Zelmo-- yeah, Utah isn't exactly East.

ChicagoJ
02-09-2004, 01:35 PM
In no particular order:

Julius Irving
Roger Brown
Mel Daniels
Dan Issel
George McGinnis
Artis gilmore
Connie Hawkins
Billy Cunningham
Louie Dampier
Bob Netolicky

:laugh:

You know, I might take that lineup over the ones we've listed above. :D That first five is awfully d@#n good.

Cactus Jax
02-09-2004, 01:43 PM
1. Jermaine -- Every other player on this list practically would be traded to get Jermaine, besides the popular ones, Lebron, AI.

2. Ben Wallace -- He is the face of the Pistons, and without him wouldn't be where they are or have been.

3. Jason Kidd -- He sees everything on the floor and is the best Nets player on both ends of the floor.

4. Lebron James -- He's just about at this position right now, as now he's leading his team to more and more victories, but look out JO, Wallace, and Kidd in the next couple years.

5. Tracy McGrady -- The people around him have failed him this year, but he's the best scoring 2/3 in the east.

6. Allen Iverson -- The guy has been shooting a little bit better, and always brings the energy and sheer will every night.

7. Ron Artest -- What he does on both ends is unmatched in the NBA, but as long as he's in Indy, he's the 2nd star.

8. Paul Pierce -- He's not as flashy nor as good offensively as T-Mac but does play better defense, but is on a sinking ship right now.

9. Michael Redd -- He's better than Vince Carter right now, and probably will be in the future. He shoots better, plays better defense, drives more often, and is on a winning team which is just about a miracle.

10. Stephon Marbury -- I'm still a sceptic about how this will work out in the end for Zeke, but right now he looks like a genius, and so does my fantasy team. :P

Vince Carter and Kenyon Martin to me are the two most overrated players in the eastern conference, Vince I explained above, and Kenyon learn something new on offense; every shot in the paint is a jump hook going left, and he makes his living off of Kidd, so much that he should actually have to pay him his salary.

Lamar Odom -- He's on the cusp right now but has to prove this again next year to probably make my list.

Unclebuck
02-09-2004, 01:47 PM
Same topic with a twist.

if you were putting together a team using eastern conference players, who would you pick.

Point guard: Kidd
Shooting guard: toughest position, with this team we would need the best possible shooter. I pick Redd
Small Forward: Artest
Power forward: J.O.
Center: Ben Wallace.

Kmartin and Pierce coming off the bench.

diego
02-09-2004, 02:00 PM
Same topic with a twist.

if you were putting together a team using eastern conference players, who would you pick.

Point guard: Kidd
Shooting guard: toughest position, with this team we would need the best possible shooter. I pick Redd
Small Forward: Artest
Power forward: J.O.
Center: Ben Wallace.

Kmartin and Pierce coming off the bench.



With this in mind:

Kidd
TMAC - easily
Artest
JO
Wallace

gives you scoring in JO, Kidd, and TMac(plus Artest is no slouch) and gives you three of the best defenders in league as well.

naptownmenace
02-09-2004, 02:19 PM
Vince Carter and Kenyon Martin to me are the two most overrated players in the eastern conference, Vince I explained above, and Kenyon learn something new on offense; every shot in the paint is a jump hook going left, and he makes his living off of Kidd, so much that he should actually have to pay him his salary.


I can agree with what you said about Vince but KMart has expanded his offense to the point that he deserves his props.

He's posting 18 points (on 50% shooting), 9 rebounds, 1.5 steals, and 1.3 blocks. He's really coming into his own and he defends Jermaine better than anyone in the league, including Ben Wallace. He's definitely not overrated. As far as his defense, he's really underrated.

ChicagoJ
02-09-2004, 02:26 PM
Same topic with a twist.

if you were putting together a team using eastern conference players, who would you pick.

Point guard: Kidd
Shooting guard: toughest position, with this team we would need the best possible shooter. I pick Redd
Small Forward: Artest
Power forward: J.O.
Center: Ben Wallace.

Kmartin and Pierce coming off the bench.

As much as I love Artest, with that lineup you would need another explosive scorer (because I'm assuming it would be playing the best team made up of Western players) and would put McGrady at SF and bring Artest off the bench.

I think I'd have the same concern as btown, but I'd pick a different answer (of course):

PG - Marberry
SG - Iverson
SG - Artest
PF - Wallace
C - JO

Bench: Pierce, T-Mac, K-Mart

However, I'd be concerned about giving up size at every single position, (assuming the west lineup could resemble GP, Ray Allen, Peja, Duncan, and Shaq.)

DisplacedKnick
02-09-2004, 02:49 PM
What Diego said. You have the best perimeter and interior scorers in the conf in JO & T-Mac with Kidd and Artest who can score but are perfectly happy not to if they don't have to - and Kidd, Artest and Big Ben give you some outstanding defenders.

If I'm going 8 deep I add K-Mart, Marbury & Redd. Don't really have a backup center in mind unfortunately - if you HAD to have one I guess it'd be Magloire though I'd be highly tempted to pick Okur.

Mourning
02-09-2004, 03:44 PM
Hmmm.... ok I think I would pick this team than:

PG - Jason Kidd (brilliant distributor of the ball, makes the players around him WAYYYY better, rebounds great for a PG, shooting is getting better, plays good D)

SG - T-Mac (prolific scorer, decent defender and gets enough rebounds for his position while being lengthy AND quick which makes him almost impossible to adequately defend, ALMOST as WE know who can :dance: )

SF - Artest (the one who can! Perfect defensive match up for most star smallforwards and shootingguards, offensively MORE than adequate too!)

PF - JO (best PF AND C in the eastern conference, PF is what he prefers to play though)

C - Ben Wallace (can also play PF, but good at C too, INTIMIDATING inside player, together with JO forms a blocking and rebounding machinegun)

Bench:

SG/PG - Allen Iverson (can fill in, create and score from the SG and also the PG spot, veryyyyyy fast)

SG-SF - Paul Pierce (still a great offensive threat that can get you A LOT of three throws when you really want them too! Too bad, for him ;) , his team sucks THIS year)

PF - Kenyon Martin (still the 2nd best PF in the east in my humble opinion. JO or Ben can fill the C spot when Kenyon is in)

Note: having a difficult time leaving Marbury, Lebron and Odom on the sidelines here. Lebron is great, but I wouldn't yet take him this year, very likely would next year!)

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Hicks
02-09-2004, 03:53 PM
Going from UB's idea:

My East team:

Kidd
Pierce
Artest
O'Neal
Wallace

Snow
Redd
Odom
Foster
Okur

diego
02-09-2004, 04:06 PM
Going from UB's idea:

My East team:

Kidd
Pierce
Artest
O'Neal
Wallace

Snow
Redd
Odom
Foster
Okur


Pierce over TMAC. I dont know about that.

ChicagoJ
02-09-2004, 04:09 PM
Going from UB's idea:

My East team:

Kidd
Pierce
Artest
O'Neal
Wallace

Snow
Redd
Odom
Foster
Okur

:confused: I'd at least have Harrington as backup PF before Foster (or is there another Foster that I've forgotten?)

Hicks
02-09-2004, 04:11 PM
Going from UB's idea:

My East team:

Kidd
Pierce
Artest
O'Neal
Wallace

Snow
Redd
Odom
Foster
Okur


Pierce over TMAC. I dont know about that.

If I want the ball to go in the bucket, I give it to Paul Pierce. I consider him the over all best scorer. Plus, he plays with heart and acts like he cares wheras McGrady looks like he's falling asleep and isn't as agressive.

ChicagoJ
02-09-2004, 04:20 PM
I'd like to add more more twist to the topic:

Top five players overall.

In my opinion:

(1) Duncan
(2) Garnett
(3) Jermaine
(4) Peja
(5) Shaq

Okay; fire away...

Hicks
02-09-2004, 04:22 PM
Going from UB's idea:

My East team:

Kidd
Pierce
Artest
O'Neal
Wallace

Snow
Redd
Odom
Foster
Okur

:confused: I'd at least have Harrington as backup PF before Foster (or is there another Foster that I've forgotten?)

I'm looking for balance with some more roleplayer-ish bench guys. Snow is a roleplayer, Redd is the explosive scorer, Odom is Mr. Everything, Foster is Mr. Hustle and extra defense, Okur is a bit of everything from the post position. Basically I only want my team to be top heavy with stars. Let the starting 5 be this awesome superstar firepower, but let the bench balance things out more.

Hicks
02-09-2004, 04:24 PM
I'd like to add more more twist to the topic:

Top five players overall.

In my opinion:

(1) Duncan
(2) Garnett
(3) Jermaine
(4) Peja
(5) Shaq

Okay; fire away...

1 Garnett
2 Duncan
3 Shaq (not that I think he's as skilled as some do, but when he's on, he's dominant nonetheless and there's nothing anyone can really do about it)
4 JO
5 Undecided. Depending on who it is will decide if JO stays at 4 or drops to 5.

Unclebuck
02-09-2004, 04:24 PM
I'd like to add more more twist to the topic:

Top five players overall.

In my opinion:

(1) Duncan
(2) Garnett
(3) Jermaine
(4) Peja
(5) Shaq

Okay; fire away...


No way, I can't believe Peja a top 5 player. I would not put him in the top 10. Defense is suspect, he benefits greatly by being on a Kings team and th system they run

Hicks
02-09-2004, 04:26 PM
I'd like to add more more twist to the topic:

Top five players overall.

In my opinion:

(1) Duncan
(2) Garnett
(3) Jermaine
(4) Peja
(5) Shaq

Okay; fire away...

I'd take that line-up, though it is rather post heavy and might need a player like McGrady to balance it out instead of Jermaine.

Yeah, it is post heavy. But I don't think he meant it as a staring lineup. Just the top 5 period.

ChicagoJ
02-09-2004, 04:30 PM
I'd like to add more more twist to the topic:

Top five players overall.

In my opinion:

(1) Duncan
(2) Garnett
(3) Jermaine
(4) Peja
(5) Shaq

Okay; fire away...

I'd take that line-up, though it is rather post heavy and might need a player like McGrady to balance it out instead of Jermaine.

Yeah, it is post heavy. But I don't think he meant it as a staring lineup. Just the top 5 period.

Yeah, that's two Cs, two PFs and a SF. Not meant to be a balanced team.

ChicagoJ
02-09-2004, 04:40 PM
Going from UB's idea:

My East team:

Kidd
Pierce
Artest
O'Neal
Wallace

Snow
Redd
Odom
Foster
Okur

:confused: I'd at least have Harrington as backup PF before Foster (or is there another Foster that I've forgotten?)

I'm looking for balance with some more roleplayer-ish bench guys. Snow is a roleplayer, Redd is the explosive scorer, Odom is Mr. Everything, Foster is Mr. Hustle and extra defense, Okur is a bit of everything from the post position. Basically I only want my team to be top heavy with stars. Let the starting 5 be this awesome superstar firepower, but let the bench balance things out more.

:cool: I just don't think I've ever seen anyone post such a lineup, but the role player idea is an interesting perspective on this topic.

tdeltdot
02-09-2004, 05:02 PM
1/2 McGrady and Kidd
3/4 Artest and O'neal
5 Wallace
6 AI
7 Marbury
8 Pierce

scrubs (mainly guys who have only been playing really well for a season of two):
Baron, K Mart, Donyell Marshall (the most underrated player in the NBA this season?), Redd and Odom

How the heck can people justify leaving McGrady and Kidd out of their top three?

Pig Nash
02-09-2004, 05:46 PM
How can Peja be on that list. I'd take any one of the Mavericks best five. (nowitzki, walker, jamison, nash, finley)

My all-league starting five
JO
Nowitzki
Cassell
McGrady
Artest (need a good 2 defender)

ChicagoJ
02-09-2004, 06:23 PM
Interesingly, I was debating between Dirk (whom I would have ranked #6 if my list went any deeper) and Peja and trying to get a feel for the love/ hate around here of Peja.

Among other things, he:
Ranks #3 in the NBA in Points Per Game(25.3)
Ranks #7 in the NBA in Three-Point Field-Goal Percentage(0.428)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Free-Throw Percentage(0.929)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Three-Point Field Goals Made(139.0)
Ranks #3 in the NBA in Three-Point Field Goal Attempts(325.0)
Ranks #8 in the NBA in Free Throws(249.0)

He's also averaging 6 rebs. and one steal per game and shooting 48% overall from the floor.

So far this season, he's been the MVP (sorry Brad Miller lovers) of the team with the second best record in the league.

I knew UB would chew up his defense. :cool: But I think its a sign of his greatness that he puts up these types of numbers within the context of a winning team. Peja at 25 and 6, or Dirk at 20 and 8 and four games back? I think, right now, he's about the fourth best player in the NBA.

I know Ron was kicked out of our game in Sacramento, and Brad had a big game, but Peja quietly dropped 27 - including 11 in the fourth quarter on us while shooting 50% and picking up five boards.

Although no one has said this yet, I think its a fine counterpoint that Dirk's production has dropped because the Mavs have added a couple more scorers. If Dirk were traded for Duncan, I might be ranking Dirk #1 and Duncan #6. Also, my ranking of Peja may drop when Webber returns.

Again, fire away...

dipperdunk
02-09-2004, 06:33 PM
My top 10 in the East.

1. JO
2. Kidd
3. Iverson
4. Pierce
5. McGrady
6. Ben
7. Marbury
8. Artest
9. Redd
10. Lebron or Billups


Top 5 in the league
-------------------
1. Duncan
2. KG
3. JO
4. Shaq
5. Kobe

dipperdunk
02-09-2004, 06:41 PM
I'd like to add more more twist to the topic:

Top five players overall.

In my opinion:

(1) Duncan
(2) Garnett
(3) Jermaine
(4) Peja
(5) Shaq

Okay; fire away...

I agree with 4 of the 5 :) But no way would I put Peja ahead of Kobe. Hes had a bad year with injuries, legal problems etc.,, but IMO hes a way better player then Peja if I'm in a playoff game with 5 minutes left and a tie score I'll take Kobe any day of the week over Peja. IMO when healthy Kobe is a much better player then Peja even though I don't like Kobe.

ChicagoJ
02-09-2004, 06:47 PM
...But no way would I put Peja ahead of Kobe. Hes had a bad year with injuries, legal problems etc.,, but IMO hes a way better player then Peja if I'm in a playoff game with 5 minutes left and a tie score I'll take Kobe any day of the week over Peja. IMO when healthy Kobe is a much better player then Peja even though I don't like Kobe.

Can't argue with that statement. I was either (1) rewarding Peja for his fine performance so far this season, or (2) penalizing Kobe for not playing as well this season because of all the reasons you mentioned. When he gets healthy and if he's exonerated, it would be silly to list Peja ahead of him.

MSA2CF
02-09-2004, 07:18 PM
Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Robert Parish
Isiah Thomas
Michael Jordan
Dominique Wilkins
Charles Barkley
Patrick Ewing
Reggie Miller
Bernard King
:idea:

dipperdunk
02-09-2004, 07:59 PM
Yeh Jay, I was probably penalizing Kobe as well on my list for the same reasons. I had him below JO and KG and thats not right considering his playoff accomplishments and his age and ability especially his clutch play in the playoffs in the last 5 minutes of playoff games hes incredible. Also I agree Peja has been terrific this year.

Arcadian
02-09-2004, 09:53 PM
East's Top 10

JO
Kidd
T-mac
Pierce
AI

Those are player's who I believe could have a team built around them and be of playoff caliber this year. (I know T-mac and Orlando aren't playoff material but I don't understand how they aren't competive and choose to ignore facts) AI may be slipping from this list.

The next group would be:

Odom
Artest
Marbury
Wallace
James

Niether over these lists are really ranked and I feel bad omitting a couple players but that's how the game is played.

East starters
JO
Wallace
Odom
T-mac
Kidd

I don't think these are the 5 best players in the east its just the line up I'd use. I feel a little bad about leaving out Pierce but again that's the way the game is played. I am pretty much forced to go with JO and Wallace at the PF and C spots do to a lack of depth.

top 5
Duncan
Shaq
Garnett

After that I'd put JO and Kobe although I could be persuaded one with Kidd, T-Mac but definately not Peja.

Jose Slaughter
02-10-2004, 01:21 AM
This is what I came up with for top 10 in the east.

Jermain O'Neal
Jason Kidd
Tracy McGrady
Allen Iverson
Paul Pierce
Ron Artest
Vince Carter
Carlos Boozer
Ben Wallace
Stephon Marbury

As far as the league goes.........

KG
Duncan
Shaq
JO
Kobe

I've flip flopped about half of each list over the past 10 minutes so much so that it's starting to not make any sence to me at all.

KG & Duncan at 1 & 1a, after that, who knows?



:confused:

Peck
02-10-2004, 06:56 AM
Hey, I had Wallace @ # 4. Is that good enough?

I would be willing to think that T-Mac & him could be inverted but it would take some time.

Right now though I just don't think there is anybody playing better in the east than Marburry. I put J.O. at # 1, but that is because he has been the best all season long, but at this point in time nobody is having a bigger impact than Stephon. Oh, btw, I hate Marburry & alway have but I have to give credit where credit is due.

Anyway, I'm a lifelong Pacers fan, but I love Ben Wallace.

Arcadian
02-10-2004, 10:30 AM
gcburns after reading your post I realized that I made a mistake by excluding Wallace. I am taking of B. Davis and putting up Wallace.

I will even agree that Ben deserves to be rated ahead of Artest although I think you were a little harsh on Ron.

I'm not sure I'd agree that Ben has had the biggest effect on the defensive end in the last 15 years. I'd list the Dream, Robinson, Mutombo, some years Shaq, and maybe even Rodman ahead of Ben in that regard.

But again thank you for your input and keeping us honest.

ChicagoJ
02-10-2004, 11:01 AM
Hey, I had Wallace @ # 4. Is that good enough?


Nope. I had him at #2 way up there at the top of the thread. :P


j/k.

Slick Pinkham
02-11-2004, 01:24 PM
I saw this statistical analysis of NBA players and thought it made some sense and certainly strive to be quantitative and avoids passing judgement upon the style or attitude of the player.

In essence, it adds up all of the statistical parameters, weights them "appropriately", and then compares that players' production to a "typical" player.

top 8 in the East: McGrady, Abdur-Rahim, Marbury, Jermaine, Kidd, Pierce, Baron Davis, and (oddly) Donyell Marshall.

Anyway, here is the link (scroll down a bit) and the top 20.


http://www.aarongleeman.com/2004_02_08_baseballblog_archive.html

Player Team WinsAR
Kevin Garnett MIN 12.3
Tim Duncan SAN 10.3
Tracy McGrady ORL 9.8
Sam Cassell MIN 8.3
Peja Stojakovic SAC 8.2
Andrei Kirilenko UTA 7.8
Shareef Abdur-Rahim ATL 7.6
Elton Brand LAC 7.5
Stephon Marbury NYK 7.1
Jermaine O'Neal IND 7.1
Jason Kidd NJN 7.0
Zach Randolph POR 6.8
Yao Ming HOU 6.7
Shawn Marion PHO 6.7
Paul Pierce BOS 6.6
Dirk Nowitzki DAL 6.5
Baron Davis NOR 6.4
Andre Miller DEN 6.4
Donyell Marshall TOR 6.3
Pau Gasol MEM 6.2

MSA2CF
02-11-2004, 01:30 PM
and i hate to rain on everyones parade... and considering the pacers success this year - i can understand the pride in our players... but it is still just the regular season... i just think you guys highly overrate jermaine oneal...

Then don't start talking about Kevin Garnett because he hasn't taken his team anywhere in the playoffs either. Fair is fair.
:bond:

Mourning
02-11-2004, 02:16 PM
Yes, or T-Mac for that matter. I think Iverson is good, but not THAT good and the same thing for Pierce. Just my personal view, offcourse.

Btw these were my eastern top-10:

1) Jason Kidd
2) JO
3) T-Mac
4) Iverson
5) Marbury
6) Pierce
7) Baron Davis
8) Lamar Odom
9) Ron Artest/Ben Wallace (cant make up my mind! )
10) Lebron james

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

MSA2CF
02-11-2004, 07:26 PM
yes but Garnett is playing in the much tougher western conference where to get out of the first round you have to be a real power. also Garnett's #s are astronomical - Jermaine isn't even close. it's true homerism to compare Jermaine to Garnett. Zach Randolph has just as much claim as Jermaine ONeal does.

Just because he is playing in the Western Conference doesn't make him better. We don't know how he'd do in the East, nor do we know how Jermaine would do in the West. You can't say that's the reason why a player is better than another.

Could you please show me how much better Kevin's statistics are to Jermaine's?

Then could you show me which team has the greater number of wins between Kevin's team and Jermaine's team?

Excuse me, but Zach Randolph just showed up this year and the end of last. Jermaine has been playing at a high level for 4 years now.

Suaveness
02-11-2004, 07:39 PM
and i hate to rain on everyones parade... and considering the pacers success this year - i can understand the pride in our players... but it is still just the regular season... i just think you guys highly overrate jermaine oneal...

Then don't start talking about Kevin Garnett because he hasn't taken his team anywhere in the playoffs either. Fair is fair.
:bond:

yes but Garnett is playing in the much tougher western conference where to get out of the first round you have to be a real power. also Garnett's #s are astronomical - Jermaine isn't even close. it's true homerism to compare Jermaine to Garnett. Zach Randolph has just as much claim as Jermaine ONeal does.

Once again, no logic, just Jermaine bashing. You can't compare conferences when dealing with players being the best. No sense at all. Jermaine plays at a high level every game, and has done so for quite awhile. Astrnomical? I think not....if I remember, only about 4 pts and 2-3 boards more than JO. And he has played a bit longer than JO. As far as Randolph is concerned, this is the first year he is actually playing well.

Mourning
02-11-2004, 07:45 PM
Further, you might want to look up JOs stats vs the western conference teams. I recall he got better numbers against those teams than against eastern conference teams. Anyway, you are clearly making up new arguments now to save your earlier statements :unimpressed: .

JO is no KG, but to say he is just about "ok" and gets his high grade, because he's playing in a "weak" eastern conference and his position on the court there isnt well covered is a non-argument, considering his stats vs the west and the Pacers together with the T-Wolves as the best road teams now.

Anyway, I'll admit to being a little bit of homer, but a rational and reasonable one and I get the feeling you're not far from homerism yourself either.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

able
02-11-2004, 08:14 PM
Yeha mourning, I agree, but then again, JO is not that good :D

Only problem people forget in comparisons is who many other good players the team has they are compaing people like JO with.

If there was no Ron and no Al on this team, JO's numbers would be a lot higher, though the team might be losing, his numbers would be up there with KG.

But this team nowadays has scorers on every position, including the far end of the bench and the IRL, it makes it slightly harder to put the numbers up.

:stupid: