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View Full Version : AJ's Injury: The Good and the Bad



McKeyFan
10-27-2004, 11:18 AM
The bad part is obvious: not only is he our first backup at point, he's usually been the guy to finish games. And for a reason: he's clutch, has made many big shots at the end of games, and makes few mistakes. He's also a defensive plus, and is a good shooter in general. He's very reliable at the foul line.

Tinsley is none of the above. He has improved by making fewer turnovers, playing better defense, and shooting a bit better, but not reliably, like AJ. I do believe Tinsley has a winner's mindset and can be clutch at the end of games. He just hasn't had as many opportunties to do so.

The Good: Tinsley will finish most games for the next month or so. He needs this experience. If you saw last night's game, you saw him foul a three point shooter at the critical end, with about 30 seconds to play. We had almost closed them out. That's the kind of mistake AJ would not make.

AJ is, IMO, very underrated. I remember a post last year where Peck attributed AJ as the main reason for our early success.

On the other hand, Tinsley is potentially better than AJ. He's more mobile, makes more things happen, creates better. If he could become more consistent from outside, more reliable from the foul line, and smarter at the end of games, then we've got an even better pg to finish our games.

Ragnar
10-27-2004, 12:27 PM
I dont know what games you were watching last year but AJ only finished the games when Kenny was the starter. Once Tins got the job back he was finishing the games.

Tins win% is amazing and his D is looking better this year than it did last year when it was highley underated.

I think you are the only person on the planet who thinks Tins is only potentially better than AJ.

diego
10-27-2004, 12:31 PM
I agree...IMO AJ is WAY overrated and also cost us many many leads that were built by teh Tinsley ran group. Every time he came in the game we would immediately slow down, offense would become stagnant, and would lose our leads.

Im not saying he isnt a good veteran back up and worthy of at least a roster spot, but i hardly view this as critical to the team.

able
10-27-2004, 12:45 PM
To state that Aj finished most games last season is to much nonsense to handle, just see what they did to PLEASE get Tins on the floor in the ECF.

The starting/Closing PG on the Pacers is Jamaal Tinsley, no chance in hell that will change.

Which is besides the point that I for one would not be surprised if Tins averaged a double double in points and Assists this season.
Please read correct, I am not saying it will happen, only that I would not be surprised if it happened.

Stop over-rating AJ and under-rating Tins

MIP ? top 5 PG?, all very likely.

Kegboy
10-27-2004, 01:11 PM
Regardless of the posturing on both sides, I must say that Tinsley's shot has looked very good this preseason. His form last night was excellent.

If Gill can't cut it, I don't think we'll have a problem playing Tins 40 per in the meantime.

McKeyFan
10-27-2004, 01:24 PM
I think you are the only person on the planet who thinks Tins is only potentially better than AJ.

I should have clarified: better "at finishing games."

And I'll stick with that. AJ is a consistent free throw shooter, solid defender, less mistake prone and hits big shots at the end of games.

Suaveness
10-27-2004, 01:25 PM
I think that AJ is a very solid PG. I think he just does what he needs to, and isn't flashy. Reliability is fine in my book. I am thrilled to have AJ as a backup.

Ragnar
10-27-2004, 01:59 PM
I should have clarified: better "at finishing games."

And I'll stick with that. AJ is a consistent free throw shooter, solid defender, less mistake prone and hits big shots at the end of games.





Even with your clarification you are the only person on the planet who thinks Aj is in any way shape or even theoretical form better at finishing games.

He is not a better defender than Tins. Jamaal may turn it over a little more based on the way turnovers are calculated in the NBA, but if you count (as I do) all the times that you dont get a decent shot because the point guard took way too long to get the ball up the court then AJ is far worse in tha category.

ChicagoJ
10-27-2004, 02:02 PM
Regardless of the posturing on both sides, I must say that Tinsley's shot has looked very good this preseason. His form last night was excellent.

If Gill can't cut it, I don't think we'll have a problem playing Tins 40 per in the meantime.

Tinsley has yet to demonstrate an ability to play more than 28 minutes per game effectively. I would love to have him out there for 40, but I think, even with AJ's injury, that 32-34 minutes per game is about the most you can get out of him without having him worn down by the time AJ gets back.

Bingo.

Tinsley, although I'm a big fan of his, has yet to prove to me that he can withstand the physical pressure of playing more than 32mpg consistently.

I'm hoping that changes this season, but you all know the pessimist in me won't believe it until I see it.

EDIT - And I think Tinsley knows it, too. We've never heard him squawk about minutes played, have we? He knows how rapidly his game deteriorates when he gets fatigued.

ChicagoJ
10-27-2004, 02:11 PM
I don't mind AJ on the floor at the end of games - IF he's playing SG. But not at PG. His inability to effectively run the offense makes him too much of a liability for me, but I don't mind him taking the shot if the ball rotates to him. In fact, I want him to take it, he's one of those guys with icewater in his veins.

Every time our offense scores when he's playing PG, you can find that one of the other four players either created thier own shot or they created a shot for someone else after the offense stalled. That creativity doesn't come from the PG. Like Ragnar, I consider those possessions to be PG turnovers. Perhaps that makes me "the rest of the world"? :evillaugh:

Ragnar
10-27-2004, 03:17 PM
You speak for eveyone on the planet?

Why yes I do ;)

SkipperZ
10-27-2004, 03:40 PM
Tinsley has hit numberous big shots during the course of his career. In fact his three point shooting for some reason is Reggie like at the end of games.

But he hasn't shown that he is a fit enough player to endure 82 games plus playoffs logging heavy minutes. He didnt play the beginning of last season and nagging injuries wore him down by the end.

He in most likelyhood cannot endure more than 30-35 minutes a game and expect to be effective in the playoffs, if not injured by that point. Thats where losing AJ hurts, because AJ is at this point a better player than Eddie Gill, and Freddie is mostly unproven playing the pg position.

However I think stretches of Ron playing point forward with Freddie defending the pg spot on the other end of the court will work well enough to spell Tinsley a good 15 minutes a game. Plus Freddy has shown flashes of being able to run the point. He has decent court vision, and his ballhandling seems to be sufficient.

I don't really think we'll be missing AJ at all. To be honest I never thought he was very good to begin with. On the other hand, losing Foster....

:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

Kegboy
10-27-2004, 04:22 PM
FYI, the most minutes Tinsley played last year was 38 in an OT game against Toronto. He had 12 points, 11 assists, 6 rebounds, 5 steals and 3 fouls and 1 turnover.

The most minutes Tinsley played ever was 56 in the epic double-OT Dallas game a couple years back. Stats unavailable.

Considering Jamaal looks so fit and trim, I don't see why he can't play a lot of minutes for a month. His injuries have always been a result of conditioning, which I don't think is a problem anymore.

Besides, this whole issue I've started is moot, IMO, since Gill will do just fine.
---
Asked afterward if O'Neal's absence contributed to Charlotte's win, Knight bristled.

"What about Primoz? They didn't have Shaq, but we didn't have Primoz," he said.

Ragnar
10-27-2004, 05:05 PM
I dont see how Jones could be any slower at bringing the ball up and handing it to Ron than AJ is.

beast23
10-27-2004, 09:02 PM
I find it humorous that folks were *****ing like mad about AJ last season. 90% backed Kenny, but that AJ... he was the scum of the earth.

Then summer rolled around and Bird, Carlisle and Walsh started singing his praises. Then the uninformed didn't want to sound so uninformed, so suddenly a lot of former critics jumped on his band wagon and started regurgitating words they had heard from the top brass, just so they could sound a little more informed about AJ's value.

Now, it's near the start of a new season and here we are again, the *****ing is starting.

Folks, there is absolutely nothing wrong with AJ playing PG. At any time during the game. It's no secret that Tinsley penetrates and passes better, but that's just not the strengths of AJ's game.

AJ rarely will attempt the risky pass. He certainly initiates the offense slower than Tinsley, working through others perhaps more than making the direct pass on his own. He knocks down open shots and he plays damn good defense.

In other words, he's very steady. He's not said to be one of the best backup PGs in the league for no reason at all. He gets the job done, and probably does exactly what you want your backup PG to do. He consumes minutes in a backup roll without making many mistakes; his contribution is far more positive than negative.

What the hell else do you expect of your backups?

But who cares that Tinsley doesn't play more than 28 to 32 minutes per game?

We won 61 games last season and we only had a couple of players playing 35 minutes or more.

You ask me, that's exactly what I want. I want my starters playing just enough minutes to provide the win. Not one minute more.

I want everyone healthy and rested throughout the season and in the playoffs.

We may have injuries at this time, but eventually we will have everyone healthy. So what the heck, since we've got a decent bench, spread around the minutes and avoid burning anyone out.

SoupIsGood
10-27-2004, 09:20 PM
I really liked how AJ performed last year. I think he's a great back-up.

However, I want to ses if Freddie can play PG well.

beast23
10-27-2004, 11:35 PM
I'm sorry PM, but comparing AJ and Travis is ridiculous.

Travis was a me-first PG, who's primary means of helping the team was to look first for his own opportunities to score. He would often hold the ball the first 12-15 seconds of the shot clock before giving it up when his own opportunities broke down.

AJ does take longer than Tinsley to get the ball up the floor. But he now has only 8 seconds to get the ball up, so I think that when he is pressured it would naturally appear that he is "just beating" the 8-second count in getting the ball across midcourt.

But once across the line, more often than not, he has handed the ball off to someone else, such as Artest or even Reggie, to help with initiating the offense.

Last year's offense primarily went through JO in the post, or Artest either out on the floor or in the post. I think that the offense bogged down much more due to the time required by our big men to establish post position through two to three feeds in a single possession than it did from ANY of our PGs holding the ball.

As for AJ being one of the best backup PGs in the league, I would challenge anyone to provide me a list of BACKUP PGs that are a better fit for the Pacers than AJ. You may be able to name or two that might be as good; I just don't think that you can name any that would be clearly better.

Unclebuck
10-28-2004, 12:02 AM
I do think AJ is one of the best backup point guards in the NBA. If you take everything into account. If you had to give AJ grades for what he brings to the pacers. he would get an A+ for intangibles. He brings leadership, great enthusiasm, he never complains, he is the biggest cheerleader while on the bench, IMO the intangibles he brings are as high as they can possibly be.

So criticize his playmaking ability if you want, and you would be correct, he rarely creates offense (that is one reason why Freddie and AJ make a great tandem, Fred can create, while AJ can provide steadiness. But AJ is very valuable.

The fact that some of you seem to always want to find flaws in AJ's game amazes me. He is a backup point guard afterall.

Anthem
10-28-2004, 12:04 AM
As for AJ being one of the best backup PGs in the league, I would challenge anyone to provide me a list of BACKUP PGs that are a better fit for the Pacers than AJ. You may be able to name or two that might be as good; I just don't think that you can name any that would be clearly better.

I'm waiting for somebody to say "Freddy Jones."

But Bobby Jackson, no question.

Ragnar
10-28-2004, 10:52 AM
I dont see how you can still be on the AJ bandwagon. He played very poorly against Detroit. I have no doubt that with a healthy Tinsley we would have won that series.

I do want to say that I thought Gill played well last night. I think he could work out as a backup pg. He seemed to be willing to drive the lane and he made some decent passes.

I dont want to leave out Freddie here either I thought that while he is not there yet he certainly has the ability to be a good backup pg.

Kegboy
10-28-2004, 01:03 PM
He played very poorly against Detroit.

Ron did, too. Therefore, we should replace him in the rotation with James Jones.
---
Asked afterward if O'Neal's absence contributed to Charlotte's win, Knight bristled.

"What about Primoz? They didn't have Shaq, but we didn't have Primoz," he said.

McKeyFan
10-28-2004, 01:40 PM
To state that Aj finished most games last season is to much nonsense to handle

Well, that was my recollection. Maybe I'm wrong. But maybe not. If you include durability (Tinsley getting injured) AJ's number of finishes go up. And if you include the first part of the season where Kenny
Anderson started, his finishes may have been in the ballparkof Tinsley's finishes.

Anybody have a way of finding out who finished the most games between AJ and Tins?

Kegboy
10-28-2004, 01:43 PM
To state that Aj finished most games last season is to much nonsense to handle

Well, that was my recollection. Maybe I'm wrong. But maybe not. If you include durability (Tinsley getting injured) AJ's number of finishes go up. And if you include the first part of the season where Kenny
Anderson started, his finishes may have been in the ballparkof Tinsley's finishes.

Anybody have a way of finding out who finished the most games between AJ and Tins?

I remember him finishing more than enough to keep it from being an odd occurance. In fact, I'd say he finished a significant portion of the time. But I don't have any proof.
---
Asked afterward if O'Neal's absence contributed to Charlotte's win, Knight bristled.

"What about Primoz? They didn't have Shaq, but we didn't have Primoz," he said.

Ragnar
10-28-2004, 02:15 PM
He finished games in the early part of the season BEFORE the game against New Jersey where Rick got booted and the assistant coach inserted Tinsley with a huge deficit. Tinsley promptly got us right back into the game getting us to within 2 points.

Then they put AJ back in the game to give Tins a rest and the Nets promptly went back up by 20. Tins came back with 3 minutes to go and we lost by six.

Aj finished maybe 6 games the rest of the season. One of which Rick pulled Tins because he thought Tins was reckless after Tins had pulled the team back to a tie when he came back from AJ losing our 10 point lead and giving the other team an 8 point lead. AJ came in and we lost the game.

AJ never finished another game where Tins was healthy. So yes he finished several games but they were amlost entirely before Tins came back.

Anthem
10-28-2004, 02:59 PM
Just to clarify... I don't think Freddy is a better backup PG RIGHT NOW. But I think that if Freddy were given some backup PG minuites, he'd be far superior BY THE END OF END THE SEASON.

ChicagoJ
10-28-2004, 03:12 PM
Just to clarify... I don't think Freddy is a better backup PG RIGHT NOW. But I think that if Freddy were given some backup PG minuites, he'd be far superior BY THE END OF END THE SEASON.


Just like I thought last season that if we gave Brezec some backup C minutes, he'd be far superior by the end of the season.

I know what you're saying, and Rick's a heck of a coach. But he's also a win-now coach, he hasn't shown much interest in Detroit or here in investing in players like that, especially if the short-term results include some losses.

Arcadian
10-28-2004, 03:25 PM
Rick stuck with Fred in the begining last year so he would be better later on.

ChicagoJ
10-28-2004, 03:33 PM
I wasn't trying to imply that his win-now coaching style is a bad thing - or that he never plays young players. I was just pointing out that there's a reason not to expect/ hope for him to expiriment in-season. Fred was also the only backup SG on the roster last year, so what choice did he have, really?
Grammar gets me every time.

Arcadian
10-28-2004, 04:01 PM
To an extent I agree but he could have used AJ as a combo guard or played Ron more at the 2, slide Al to the 3 and given Cro Fred's minutes.

ChicagoJ
10-28-2004, 04:26 PM
I think you've got a good point. And if we were talking about a backup for a starter that played a regular amount of minutes, I think he *would* have done one of those things.

But he knew Reggie wasn't going to play a lot of minutes, and all of those moves involve sliding a player away from thier optimal position. At 10-14 mpg, probably not a big deal to go small with AJ as a combo guard or huge with Ron at "2" and Al at "3". But at 24-28 mpg, that's a bigger gamble.

Arcadian
10-28-2004, 04:40 PM
Jay, just admit that Rick is a nurturing father figure that many of us wish we had when we were young undersized shooting guards.

ChicagoJ
10-28-2004, 04:44 PM
:laugh: - Considering my dad *was* the hardnosed coach we all ended up with anyway.

Kegboy
10-28-2004, 07:30 PM
Regarding Primoz, part of me can't help but think that we stashed him away on purpose, since we knew we wouldn't protect him and we were trying to keep him a secret. At least, that's what I tell myself; the alternative being that Rick was a freakin' moron not to play him over Pollard and Cro.
---
Asked afterward if O'Neal's absence contributed to Charlotte's win, Knight bristled.

"What about Primoz? They didn't have Shaq, but we didn't have Primoz," he said.