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Stryder
08-17-2011, 07:29 AM
Wow. Has anyone read the Yahoo reports? Detailed! Impressive.

http://sports.yahoo.com/investigations/news;_ylt=Auvt23DzHNH4SYkKhju3ZR45nYcB?slug=cr-renegade_miami_booster_details_illicit_benefits_08 1611

Sandman21
08-17-2011, 04:05 PM
Well, we won't be seeing The U in a bowl game for a few years....

PacerDude
08-17-2011, 04:16 PM
U of Miami = screwed.

xBulletproof
08-17-2011, 04:24 PM
Well, we won't be seeing The U in a bowl game for a few years....

Or any games at all with any luck.

Trader Joe
08-17-2011, 04:32 PM
They should get the same treatment SMU got years ago...I.E. the death penalty. It'd be a strong statement from the NCAA, and Miami is still a big enough name for it to actually matter, but at the same time no longer competitive enough for it to cause a huge loss of a national power.

pacer4ever
08-17-2011, 04:35 PM
cheating goes on at every college it is a shame this rat had to tell his story because he is locked up and bitter he sounds like a media attention hungry guy. I don't blame the players for taking the money I mean most people would in that situation but this booster is a scum bag. He really thought that these players would have his back after they got paid in the NFL? This guy is an idiot.

ECKrueger
08-17-2011, 04:39 PM
Robert Marve won't be playing for us I don't believe.

xBulletproof
08-17-2011, 04:40 PM
cheating goes on at every college it is a shame this rat had to tell his story because he is locked up and bitter he sounds like a media attention hungry guy. I don't blame the players for taking the money I mean most people would in that situation but this booster is a scum bag. He really thought that these players would have his back after they got paid in the NFL? This guy is an idiot.

Yes, he's an idiot. However what does that make Miami for letting him be around that long?

In the end, it may be the players who get screwed, honestly. He may get the last laugh. If his scheme that got him locked up benefited the players, there MAY, and I say may, because I don't know for sure but there may be a case that the players received the money that was stolen from investors in his fraudulent scheme. That could give the people who were ripped off, a case in court to demand the players give those portions of the money back.

Much in the same sense that if you buy a stolen item, and the police match the serial number to that item, you're screwed. The police will take the item and you're out of however much money you spent on it.

Same concept, and I'm not 100% sure it applies, but I'm guessing it will be attempted.

Trader Joe
08-17-2011, 04:48 PM
cheating goes on at every college it is a shame this rat had to tell his story because he is locked up and bitter he sounds like a media attention hungry guy. I don't blame the players for taking the money I mean most people would in that situation but this booster is a scum bag. He really thought that these players would have his back after they got paid in the NFL? This guy is an idiot.

Really college players need the money? They have to take it, even though it's breaking the rules? These guys are getting a FREE education! And on top of that they have tutors at their beck and call 24/7, they have trainer's table, they have nicer accommodations than other students. These kids get plenty of ****, they just don't take advantage of it. They'd rather waste their time getting pointless **** like sexual favors from hookers or rims for their SUV.

Sorry, I don't have any pity for Division 1 athletes, and most division 1 athletes I've talked to who have graduated and matured, including guys who played football at major D1 programs like Purdue and then later went on to other professions agree with me. They can't believe all the benefits they get that are perfectly legal that most players take for granted.

I get some of these players want to "help their mom" or "help their dad", but guess what there are a lot of average students that want to do the very same thing.

/endrant

Trader Joe
08-17-2011, 04:49 PM
And yeah the guy's an idiot and the worst type of whistle blower, but the whistle still got blown, Miami and its players should have to pay the consequences. IU got taken behind the woodshed for some cell calls.

Trader Joe
08-17-2011, 04:56 PM
And, also P4E, I'm sorry if it sounded in that earlier post like I was coming down hard on you. I just really think players often get portrayed as victims or just "doing what everyone would do" and I just think that's a cop out. They get so much already, they just take it for granted, or I should say those that seek impermissible benefits do. To me that's the most fascinating part of this story, this guy is just some tiny wannabe who happened to start writing checks to football players, probably LOVED the attention he got from them being his "friends" and the next thing he knows he's a huge booster involved in illegal NCAA benefits as more and more players approach him. He just sort of fell into it, not an excuse for him at all, but I can see how this nerdy short kid with some money woudl find this a tough offer to pass up.

Now he sort of plays it up, but I bet if anything he loved hanging out with the players as much or more than they enjoyed using his yacht, money, etc.

Heisenberg
08-17-2011, 05:07 PM
Wonder when the Calipari story's going to break. Been waiting since UMass, probably be awhile. Guy insulates himself pretty well.

pacer4ever
08-17-2011, 05:17 PM
Wonder when the Calipari story's going to break. Been waiting since UMass, probably be awhile. Guy insulates himself pretty well.

It better be soon because he will be back in the NBA in a few years IMO

Heisenberg
08-17-2011, 05:25 PM
It better be soon because he will be back in the NBA in a few years IMO
Nah, he's getting paid like $5 mil in salary, gets a million dollar bonus every year just for coming back, and I think he has some sort of media/endorsement deal that brings in another couple mil. He's at a (maybe THE) destination program, and still hasn't won a title so it's not a "what else there left to do?" thing.

Sandman21
08-17-2011, 07:07 PM
They should get the same treatment SMU got years ago...I.E. the death penalty. It'd be a strong statement from the NCAA, and Miami is still a big enough name for it to actually matter, but at the same time no longer competitive enough for it to cause a huge loss of a national power.

Unfortunately, the NCAA will never give an SMU Death Penalty again. If U$C didn't get it, then I don't think the U will either.

xBulletproof
08-17-2011, 07:37 PM
Unfortunately, the NCAA will never give an SMU Death Penalty again. If U$C didn't get it, then I don't think the U will either.

USC didn't do anything to warrant it. This is far, far beyond what USC did. Don't see how they're related.

PacerDude
08-17-2011, 07:47 PM
They'll get nailed with a bunch of penalties, maybe fines, loss of scholarships, etc.... but they won't get the Death Penalty. It would impact too many other schools because of scheduling.

Stryder
08-17-2011, 08:50 PM
If they want to make a statement (and they NEED to), they'll kill the program for quite a while.

Sandman21
08-17-2011, 09:16 PM
“SMU taught the committee that the death penalty is too much like the nuclear bomb. It's like what happened after we dropped the (atom) bomb in World War II. The results were so catastrophic that now we'll do anything to avoid dropping another one.”
~John Lombardi on the SMU Death Penalty

I hate the U as much as anyone, but destroying them for 20 years is too much. They WILL get beat down hard, but the NCAA will not use the SMU Death Penalty again.


IU got taken behind the woodshed for some cell calls.
IU got off pretty easy sanctionswise. That could have been a whole lot worse if they hadn't done a lot of the things they did internally (fire Senderhoff, remove Sampson, etc).

Stryder
08-17-2011, 09:23 PM
“SMU taught the committee that the death penalty is too much like the nuclear bomb. It's like what happened after we dropped the (atom) bomb in World War II. The results were so catastrophic that now we'll do anything to avoid dropping another one.”
~John Lombardi on the SMU Death Penalty

I hate the U as much as anyone, but destroying them for 20 years is too much. They WILL get beat down hard, but the NCAA will not use the SMU Death Penalty again.


IU got off pretty easy sanctionswise. That could have been a whole lot worse if they hadn't done a lot of the things they did internally (fire Senderhoff, remove Sampson, etc).

While it can be equated to 'dropping the nuclear bomb'....I think it is needed.

Basketball Fan
08-17-2011, 09:28 PM
Robert Marve won't be playing for us I don't believe.

Actually they said he's still eligible to play

However none of this is suprising

Now the fact he kept very detailed records that's the surprise:-o

Personally I don't care that this is going on and if you look hard enough pretty much all the elite programs do this. The ones that don't do this are the ones that suck.

I can't wait for the inevitable ESPN/HBO documentary on this one.

Or at least the movie the should be based on this.

judicata
08-17-2011, 10:48 PM
If they want to make a statement (and they NEED to), they'll kill the program for quite a while.

If they want to make a statement they will take a look at the SEC. Slamming The U isn't going to change the culture of college football because the untouchables are going to continue to think they are untouchable.

Stryder
08-17-2011, 11:11 PM
If they want to make a statement they will take a look at the SEC. Slamming The U isn't going to change the culture of college football because the untouchables are going to continue to think they are untouchable.

While I can agree with this, you work with what you are given or have in front of you...right now it's Miami...you deal with this issue and then move on to the SEC...

Slick Pinkham
08-17-2011, 11:58 PM
In considering the punishment, I think you also have to look at the reason that SMU got the death penalty. It wasn't because their violations were worse than those of others, it was because they committed violations while they were already on probation for committing a separate set of violations. It was like skipping parole- the penalty was huge.

That's why I think that, while Miami will get hammered, the punishment will stop short of the death penalty. It wasn't the second set of violations for the same collection of administrators.

Trader Joe
08-18-2011, 09:14 AM
You guys do realize Miam WAS on probation when all these events were going down right? Miami has been on perpetual probation basically since the 90s.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6871518/allegations-ncaa-violations-miami-hurricanes-football-facing-death-penalty

Pat Forde makes the argument why the NCAA may bring back the death penalty here.

Since86
08-18-2011, 09:20 AM
And now I'm reading articles saying how the NCAA needs to change, and start playing players, because of this.

Well then, if that's your justification/reasoning I think we should start paying murderers too. All our punishments don't seem to be detering people from killing people, so let's just okay it, and try to reward them for not being able to follow the law as well.

Pretty stupid argument, but yet it's getting passed along by the media.

How about having a backbone and some moral integrity for once, instead of taking the easy way out.

Paying players won't make the problem go away, it will only make part of the problem legal. Such a stupid reasoning.

Heisenberg
08-18-2011, 10:12 AM
Players shouldn't get paid, not by the university or anyone with university ties anyway. But you bet your *** they should be able to make money off their likeness, just like the Olympics. Every other student on scholarship gets their OMGZZZ FREE EDUCATION and at the same time can take paid positions during their study they otherwise wouldn't be able to get. Why shouldn't Player X be able to shoot a car commercial for a thousand bucks?

DaveP63
08-18-2011, 10:34 AM
Quick show of hands, anyone suprised by this? Anyone??? OK then...

Since86
08-18-2011, 10:43 AM
Players shouldn't get paid, not by the university or anyone with university ties anyway. But you bet your *** they should be able to make money off their likeness, just like the Olympics. Every other student on scholarship gets their OMGZZZ FREE EDUCATION and at the same time can take paid positions during their study they otherwise wouldn't be able to get. Why shouldn't Player X be able to shoot a car commercial for a thousand bucks?

There's nothing against an athlete working a regular job. They can't benefit because their an athlete though.

Letting them get paid, because they're an athlete, isn't fixing the problem.

Trader Joe
08-18-2011, 11:23 AM
Yeah, but is an athlete doing commercials for a car dealer any different than a finance student with good grades getting a high paying investment banking internship?

Since86
08-18-2011, 11:47 AM
Yes, because no one would care if it wasn't an athlete. It would be some random student standing there, and that wouldn't help sell cars, nor would they get that kind of money for an appearance.

They are making money off of their status as an athlete. They might as well be paid for how many tackles they make, or how many points they average, because the higher profile the athlete the more money they're going to make for appearances.


Athletes get everything from food to clothing to rent paid by the schools. They still have the option of taking out student loans, if they need more money, and I would bet that a good portion of them are eligible for grants and they would receive money from those as well.

Yes, universities make tons and tons of money off of athletics. But they also take most of that money, if not all, and reinvest it into the school.

Whether it's a new jumbotron, or a new wing on their media building, it's going right back into the school one way or another.

When I leave school, I'm going to have a lot of money that I owe. When they get done with school, they either won't owe a dime or they will have very minimal loans.

Are we really going to try and complain that it's unfair to the student athlete? Their college experience is completely different than most, unless your getting everything paid for by your parents, but that still costs your family lots of money.

How much money is a college education worth? A hell of a lot more than a couple thousand dollars that you're going to make by appearing in a TV commercial.

Student athletes get a better benefit from their school than the rest of the student population, and it's not even close. If I start failing my courses, who cares. If the star QB starts failing, he will have every ounce of resources available to him from a personal tutor, to being able to take his final otuside of the classroom, and most likely, the benefit of the doubt from the instructor.

How much money does all those advantages equal up to?

I've got friends that have been on just about every athletic team at BSU, and I can't think of one that thinks they're being cheated.

The ones feeling cheated are those who go to big schools that see big checks. But how many schools really make money at those sports, when talking about the entire NCAA? Very, very few.

Letting the NCAA change it's rules, because a handful of schools out of a couple hundred have a hard time keeping their athletic programs in check is stupid. It will cause the collapse, or atleast make them fall out of Div 1 status, for a lot of schools.

If Texas/OSU/IU/Miami whom ever don't want to follow the rules in place by the NCAA, then don't be a member of the NCAA and start your own association where you're free to pay your players.

Don't drag the other 300+ schools down because a handful, in the grand scheme of it all, can't police themselves.

MAC schools, like Ball State, already lose money on their football programs. Most schools pay more for football than what football brings in. The BSU board I frequent has this topic of conversation quite often, some posters thinking BSU should drop down to Div II (like Butler) so the football program won't be a financial drain. Opening up payment for players, no matter how small, will put the final nail in the coffin.

And no, this isn't about BSU. I'm just using it as an example of how it would impact the other 90% of schools that make up the NCAA.

EDIT: About the schools who actually do profit off of their athletic programs. That is the exact reason why Texas A&M wants to leave the Big 12, because Texas has their own network.

A major school in a major conference can't even compete with Texas because of all the money they bring in. So in order to really compete, they feel like they have to go as far as moving out of their conference.

The whole thing is a benefit for a select amount of schools, while the massive majority get screwed.

Sounds just like the M.O. for the NCAA.

Since86
08-18-2011, 12:03 PM
I guess the biggest question is this.....

What do you do about all the other sports that dont make money, like soccer, swimming/diving, baseball, field hockey, etc.

Title IX would have to kick in somewhere.



You know how you get out of this mess? Make the punishment so harsh that no one would really be willing to break the major rules.

If you get caught giving illegal benefits to players, school being aware of it or not, just bash them over the head. Make it be known, that if you break the rules your school will be crushed.

Any system you put in place is going to be able to be cheated. That doesn't mean you should just open up the flood gates, and let the 20-30 schools who can pay ruin it for other 300.

Gamble1
08-18-2011, 02:12 PM
Student athletes get a better benefit from their school than the rest of the student population, and it's not even close. If I start failing my courses, who cares. If the star QB starts failing, he will have every ounce of resources available to him from a personal tutor, to being able to take his final otuside of the classroom, and most likely, the benefit of the doubt from the instructor.
Great points there Since86.

I had a quick question. What is the disparity between training a college athlete to be an athlete versus training a student to enter the workforce in their respected field.

To me even if you have boosters footing the bill for the head coach you still have assistants, tutors, college stadiums, practice facilities, trainers etc etc to train your athletes so you can be competitive as a program.

Student athletes don't pay these people directly but they do help pay for them if they are in a profitable sport like football or basketball.

Sandman21
08-18-2011, 02:35 PM
I used to be 100% no money for athletes, but then when I found out what Michigan was doing on the Fab Five, I started to waver some (and this coming from someone who spent time in the belly of the college sports beast).

If a college sells a jersey with a player's last name on it, shouldn't the player be entitled into a share of the money?

Trader Joe
08-18-2011, 02:45 PM
Yes, because no one would care if it wasn't an athlete. It would be some random student standing there, and that wouldn't help sell cars, nor would they get that kind of money for an appearance.



I could reply to your whole post, but I think you're missing my point here, I agree the school gives them everything the school should have to give them, athletes should get nothing more from the school.

BUT

An art major isn't going to get the same kind of money for a finance job that finance student with a 4.0 would get, and a 3.0 student isn't going to get the job a 4.0 student would. So why shouldn't a star athlete get a benefit OUTSIDE OF SCHOOL that a worse player wouldn't get? I guess all paying student internships and jobs should be abolished.

Trader Joe
08-18-2011, 02:50 PM
Should we hold all people on scholarships to this standard? Should a music major at the world renowned Jacobs School of Music at IU who has received a full scholarship not be allowed to play his music for money or sell his CDs while he is at IU?

I'm not saying the school should pay them on top of what they already get, I'm just saying I see nothing wrong with them using their skills outside of school to get paid. If a scholarship music major or a scholarship business major can do it then why not a scholarship athlete?

If a restaurant wants to pay an athlete to do an ad, I see no problem with that, but schools should NEVER be allowed to pay their athletes.

The concern to my argument and the other side of the coin is, where do you draw the line? What stops being a job and becomes an improper benefit? Unfortunately we can't use the honor code, so I must admit, I don't have a solution for it off the top of my head. So due to the fact that some people can't be trusted, I do think you probably have to outlaw it altogether, which is a shame.

Trader Joe
08-18-2011, 02:54 PM
I used to be 100% no money for athletes, but then when I found out what Michigan was doing on the Fab Five, I started to waver some (and this coming from someone who spent time in the belly of the college sports beast).

If a college sells a jersey with a player's last name on it, shouldn't the player be entitled into a share of the money?

Colleges are not allowed to sell jerseys with a player's last name on it. A person would have to pay extra for it to be personalized.

travmil
08-18-2011, 02:56 PM
I used to be 100% no money for athletes, but then when I found out what Michigan was doing on the Fab Five, I started to waver some (and this coming from someone who spent time in the belly of the college sports beast).

If a college sells a jersey with a player's last name on it, shouldn't the player be entitled into a share of the money?

No. The player is using the university as much as the university is using the player. The university wants to win conference and (hopefully) national titles to pump up it's exposure and elevate it's status to boosters, alumni, and advertisers. The athlete either wants an education to provide a better future or a place to showcase their talents for professional leagues. The problem is that the athlete doesn't want to wait for what he thinks he's entitled to. But they forget, in all but a few very special cases, the athlete needs the university FAR more than the university needs the athlete. The athletes are getting more than enough to offset their contribution to the school.

Since86
08-18-2011, 03:24 PM
Should we hold all people on scholarships to this standard? Should a music major at the world renowned Jacobs School of Music at IU who has received a full scholarship not be allowed to play his music for money or sell his CDs while he is at IU?

I'm not saying the school should pay them on top of what they already get, I'm just saying I see nothing wrong with them using their skills outside of school to get paid. If a scholarship music major or a scholarship business major can do it then why not a scholarship athlete?

If a restaurant wants to pay an athlete to do an ad, I see no problem with that, but schools should NEVER be allowed to pay their athletes.

The concern to my argument and the other side of the coin is, where do you draw the line? What stops being a job and becomes an improper benefit? Unfortunately we can't use the honor code, so I must admit, I don't have a solution for it off the top of my head. So due to the fact that some people can't be trusted, I do think you probably have to outlaw it altogether, which is a shame.

The biggest reason why athletic players are held to a different standard is the most obvious reason. NCAA stands for the National Collegiate Athletic Association.

Music/Art isn't athletics and therefore the NCAA has no power over what schools do.

The NCAA is an association of schools. The universities that make up the NCAA gives it it's power. If you don't want to be a part of the NCAA, and you want to pay players, then go right ahead and do so.

You just need to drop out of the NCAA first.

Heisenberg
08-18-2011, 03:26 PM
Trader Joe and I are on the exact same page. I might be a little more extreme, I'd rather there be legitimate minor leagues like Europe and kids are getting paid from day one.

Since86
08-18-2011, 03:32 PM
Trader Joe and I are on the exact same page. I might be a little more extreme, I'd rather there be legitimate minor leagues like Europe and kids are getting paid from day one.

And that would totally kill the NCAA as we know it. If that's the case then all the major conferences need to get their own association where they can pay their players.


And then they can deal with the fallout when they get sued for a violation of Title IX.

Slick Pinkham
08-18-2011, 05:05 PM
You guys do realize Miam WAS on probation when all these events were going down right? Miami has been on perpetual probation basically since the 90s.

No, the Miami football program last was punished in 1995 and had three years of sanctions from that series of infractions.

This latest scandal dates from 2002 to 2010.

I'm not claiming they are clean---they were probably dirty as all get-out all along. I'm just saying that they are not being accused of misconduct while actually suffering punishments for other misconduct,as was the case with SMU.

edit-- I guess your point is that, as Forde notes, the Miami BASEBALL program was investigated in 2003. I'm not sure to what extent that is held against the football program, but it would be a compliance issue for the school as a whole.

Trader Joe
08-19-2011, 08:49 AM
Well I think the key issue here is that Shapiro is likely not the only dirty Miami booster, how many skeletons are going to end up getting yanked out of the closet during the NCAA investigation?

Gamble1
08-19-2011, 05:24 PM
No, the Miami football program last was punished in 1995 and had three years of sanctions from that series of infractions.

This latest scandal dates from 2002 to 2010.

I'm not claiming they are clean---they were probably dirty as all get-out all along. I'm just saying that they are not being accused of misconduct while actually suffering punishments for other misconduct,as was the case with SMU.

edit-- I guess your point is that, as Forde notes, the Miami BASEBALL program was investigated in 2003. I'm not sure to what extent that is held against the football program, but it would be a compliance issue for the school as a whole.
The athletic department would still be on the hook if the school was on probation. Failure to monitor and report is a big violation.

The AD will get canned if he isn't already but I am sure the baseball scholarships will be safe and their postseason play will be alright. The NCAA handles it as a school issue (AD) and a the sport that did the violation. The penalities will affect both. The length of the probation will be AD's punishment and the scholarships/postseason play will be the football programs punishment.

Overall the football program will get harder now since the athletic department was on probation for failure to monitor and report as a whole.

Since the football program has had major violations in the past and has a histroy of it I expect the punishments to be rather big. Like USC times 10 big. Not the death penality but the "U" got hit at the wrong time and the NCAA has now got to make a bigger statement given the recent up tick in violations.